Volkswagen: Now no. 1 carmaker in the world!...

[afretes]

Wow, that was quick and much earlier than expected. Volkswagen wanted to be the no. 1 carmaker and overtaking Toyota by 2018,...


http://www.germancarblog.com/2009/11/volkswagen-now-no-1-carmaker-in-world.html

[Billa-786]

wow,

i'm surprised but good for them i guess.

[pax1234]

I was doing my part to help them to get there sooner.
I never thought that I would buy another VW again, ever since my 1969 bug blew the engine while I was on the 401, like thirty years ago:lol:

[thelefteyeguy]

hey it keeps the mechanics very busy in the world ;) ...im all for it

[pax1234]

I know, I remember I paid something like $350.00 to replace the stupid engine, that was like a month of wages, I was making like $3.00 an hour lol.
I swore I never buy another VW again. Well, that was then.

[gilboman]

Too Bad they are also very near #1 in Unreliability
They are definitely doing their part helping the world economy forcing 4.4million people so far to have to spend exhorbant amount on repairs and keeping mechanics and parts manufactuers very busy.

so they will be at bottom in 4years or so once their cars start crapping out on them.
Hope they fall faster than GM though and atleast we won't have to bail them out, it'll be the german gov't that would have to.

[Efx]

Wow, that was quick and much earlier than expected. Volkswagen wanted to be the no. 1 carmaker and overtaking Toyota by 2018,...


http://www.germancarblog.com/2009/11/volkswagen-now-no-1-carmaker-in-world.html

I believe it when i see the news from a more reliable source.

[mr_raider]

Too Bad they are also very near #1 in Unreliability
They are definitely doing their part helping the world economy forcing 4.4million people so far to have to spend exhorbant amount on repairs and keeping mechanics and parts manufactuers very busy.

so they will be at bottom in 4years or so once their cars start crapping out on them.
Hope they fall faster than GM though and atleast we won't have to bail them out, it'll be the german gov't that would have to.

What bailout? The German federal gov't and the state of Niedersachsen have owned more than 20% of VW AUdi AG for years. Most German companies have been on the gov't dole for years.

[KawaiiTentacleBeast]

I believe it when i see the news from a more reliable source.

What is there to not believe? Most people expected VW to be the biggest carmaker at the beginning of this year.

VW sold about 4 million units in 2008, not including their Chinese joint ventures with FAW and SAIC, which together would be another 1 million units easily. This year VW China's sales are up 40% and their JV sales are up something like 110% YoY, their second biggest market, the EU, has been propped up with Cash for Clunkers programs in Germany and Britain. I think by the end of this year VW will be selling more cars per month in China than they sell per year in North America.

Toyota's biggest market is the US followed by Japan, and both are in bad shape.

[Emancipated]

What is the metric used to determine this? I mean if Toyota rolls out an incentive program and they sell more cars to leap frog VW, then they get crowned #1 again.

[dealcatcher]

Wow, that was quick and much earlier than expected. Volkswagen wanted to be the no. 1 carmaker and overtaking Toyota by 2018,...


http://www.germancarblog.com/2009/11/volkswagen-now-no-1-carmaker-in-world.html


#1 in Unreliability

[gilboman]

also, the german gov't had a HUGE program to get people to buy german cars which helped VW immensely.

in 3-4yrs time, I bet there will be another Huge program to stimulate the economy for people to get their VW fixed or towed on the gov't's dime:lol:

[afretes]

All I can say is LOL, and not in a good way.

also, the german gov't had a HUGE program to get people to buy german cars which helped VW immensely.

in 3-4yrs time, I bet there will be another Huge program to stimulate the economy for people to get their VW fixed or towed on the gov't's dime:lol:

[mr_raider]

also, the german gov't had a HUGE program to get people to buy german cars which helped VW immensely.

in 3-4yrs time, I bet there will be another Huge program to stimulate the economy for people to get their VW fixed or towed on the gov't's dime:lol:

If your gonna be forced to buy German because of the buy German incentive, Europeans have very few choices other than VW. Opel is in the dumpster, I saw their employees in Russelheim picketing on the news yesterday. MB and BMW don't really make any cars that are not fairly expensive by Euro standards.

[pax1234]

#1 in Unreliability

ok, this is good to know that I am doing my part to keep the mechanics employed and keeping the economy going in the recession.:cheesygri

[Anonymouse]

All I can say is LOL, and not in a good way.

I'd say the German cash for clunkers program was pretty big, though. It was US$7 billion, twice as big as the US one and in a much smaller country. The pressure to buy German is just as strong there as the pressure to buy American in the US.

[ottofly]

This was mostly likely due to Chinese growth.

The amount of Santanas, Boras, Sagitars and Polos I saw when I was there earlier this year was staggering. Also the Audi A6, black of course with white plates, (govt) is as ubiquitous there as a Civic here.

[ShadowVlican]

i believe it when i see the news from a more reliable source.
+1

[new_vr]

Something people need to understand...
When you are in europe, they drive european cars, that's pretty much it. You might see the odd corvette, but that's it for american cars.
Hondas and Toyotas are seen as not cool (but very reliable).
Last time I was in Holland I saw lots and lots and lots of VW's....and this is from a country that still holds a grudge against them for a little miss understanding 60 years ago

[alleycat8675309]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry#World_motor_vehicle_production

[new_vr]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry#World_motor_vehicle_production

Those are last years numbers, and not entirely useful given the amount of change that has taken place in the auto industry this year

[Billa-786]

Something people need to understand...
When you are in europe, they drive european cars, that's pretty much it. You might see the odd corvette, but that's it for american cars.
Hondas and Toyotas are seen as not cool (but very reliable).
Last time I was in Holland I saw lots and lots and lots of VW's....and this is from a country that still holds a grudge against them for a little miss understanding 60 years ago

I don't know about the rest of Europe, but in England, Ford is very popular.

[new_vr]

I don't know about the rest of Europe, but in England, Ford is very popular.

Actually, that is true. My mistake.
GM..they don't have the same cars we see here.
And Dodge..I don't even understand how they sell here

[Wolfskin]

VW is number ONE.
Long Live Walter De Silva!!!

Vw may have some issues in NA, but in Europe is excellent.

[woof]

What does it matter who's the largest automaker? I'd rather buy from the best quality automaker.

And yeah, having owned a VW Rabbit many years ago I will never buy another one of their crap cars nor will I ever have to go into one of their dealerships again to get repair work so I can get blatantly ripped off.

[lastchild01]

quantity at the expense of quality and reliability? Beat Toyota, Honda and Hyundai? I think not ...

[stealth]

If your gonna be forced to buy German because of the buy German incentive, Europeans have very few choices other than VW. Opel is in the dumpster, I saw their employees in Russelheim picketing on the news yesterday. MB and BMW don't really make any cars that are not fairly expensive by Euro standards.


Theres lots of cars in europe for them to buy...Renault, Vauxhall, Peugeot, etc. Just because they dont sell them here doesnt mean they dont exist, Actually even Ford has a decent presence in EU,along with the usual Japanese mfrs.

[Anonymouse]

For what it's worth, the 07-09 Rabbit has a very favourable reliability rating on Consumer Reports.

[malaco0219]

For what it's worth, the 07-09 Rabbit has a very favourable reliability rating on Consumer Reports.

It's only Gilboman's Rabbit or whaever VW he was driving that had problems.. LOL

Wonder why he drives one and he still bashes them so much... hypocrite much? Couldn't ever get that..

[MasterXan]

Theres lots of cars in europe for them to buy...Renault, Vauxhall, Peugeot, etc. Just because they dont sell them here doesnt mean they dont exist, Actually even Ford has a decent presence in EU,along with the usual Japanese mfrs.

but he's refering to some kind of "buy German" incentive. Aren't Renault and Peugeot French companies?

[gordholio]

It won't last.

[new_vr]

It won't last.

Please explain

[froesesp]

I'm a VW guy and I could care less if they're #1 or not. As for the unreliable part, I agree to a point. The 9 VW's that I've owned have been quite reliable overall but I am a car guy. Consumer reports should definately be taken with a grain of salt though.

[woof]

Mine was a 1975 Rabbit - first year they came out. No doubt whatsoever it was a fun to drive car and I haven't done better since. BUT the quality was unforgivably bad and VW's attitude was rigidly simple: "warranty over, your problem". And the dealership then was full of outright crooks. Yes, I'm sure a lot of things have changed at VW since then, but I vowed then that I would never forgive, forget or buy another car from those bastards.

[froesesp]

Dealerships have always been crooks for every make, it's not fair to pinpoint VW. It's the customer's fault for not going to a reputable import shop for non warranty things.

[froesesp]

Dealerships have always been crooks for every make, it's not fair to pinpoint VW. It's the customer's fault for not going to a reputable import shop for non warranty things.

[gilboman]

Please explain

because its sales are artifical this year thanks to the subsidies by the German/Euro govt.

secondly, once this many ppl experience VW unreliability and horrendous servious, there will be less people to scam in the future. They scammed their customers this year.:lol:

[gilboman]

Dealerships have always been crooks for every make, it's not fair to pinpoint VW. It's the customer's fault for not going to a reputable import shop for non warranty things.

but VW is worst of the bunch though;)

[afretes]

Lol!

but vw is worst of the bunch though;)

[froesesp]

but VW is worst of the bunch though;)

Not quite, it varies a lot between them, there are a few I know of that aren't bad actually. I've heard many horror stories from other people about stealerships of other makes as well.

[loybond]

VW doesn't enjoy the popularity in North America or Japan that it does in Europe, and the US+Canada+Japan make up well over 50% of the global car market. Toyotas while boring, have the reputation of reliability in every part of the world, and it's taken them time to get to this spot.

I don't see VW ever being #1.

[ShadowVlican]

let this thread die as it's based on nothing

[malaco0219]

but gilboman's hate on VW/Audi is worst of the bunch though;)

Editted.

I don't see this logic here with his comments.... Does that mean porsche, and other VAG related vehicles are just as bad? and their dealer ships are all bad??

Like to see some justification here

[TheFuteballer]

let this thread die as it's based on nothing

Since when are sales numbers considered nothing? With VW owning Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley and Buggati, and looking to take over Porsche whenever possible, I'd say they should be the #1 car maker in the world.

[froesesp]

It's just a bunch of biased people that believe consumer reports and all the stereotypes out there. They have pro's and con's just like every other make. It's impossible to know which is the most reliable. There are a billion factors, one of the most important being perception. I've worked on pretty much every make and I saw just as many pos honda's as vw's, and toyota's and lots of others, not that it matters though.

end thread / :cheesygri

[MasterXan]

It's just a bunch of biased people that believe consumer reports and all the stereotypes out there. They have pro's and con's just like every other make. It's impossible to know which is the most reliable. There are a billion factors, one of the most important being perception. I've worked on pretty much every make and I saw just as many pos honda's as vw's, and toyota's and lots of others, not that it matters though.

end thread / :cheesygri

that sounds like a talking point from a VWVortex forum member. :cheesygri

look....there is no conspiracy out there that JD Power and Consumer Reports are out drag VW through the mud. JD Power has ranked VW near the bottom in terms of reliability for many years and year after year, I keep hearing people trying say that JD Power or CR are biased. However, there are no other reputable ranking organizations that says otherwise.

[gman]

What is there to not believe? Most people expected VW to be the biggest carmaker at the beginning of this year.

VW sold about 4 million units in 2008, not including their Chinese joint ventures with FAW and SAIC, which together would be another 1 million units easily. This year VW China's sales are up 40% and their JV sales are up something like 110% YoY, their second biggest market, the EU, has been propped up with Cash for Clunkers programs in Germany and Britain. I think by the end of this year VW will be selling more cars per month in China than they sell per year in North America.

Toyota's biggest market is the US followed by Japan, and both are in bad shape.

I guess that 'most people' did not include VW themselves because one week ago, VW themselves announced they predicted they would be the #1 in 2018.

[froesesp]

that sounds like a talking point from a VWVortex forum member. :cheesygri

look....there is no conspiracy out there that JD Power and Consumer Reports are out drag VW through the mud. JD Power has ranked VW near the bottom in terms of reliability for many years and year after year, I keep hearing people trying say that JD Power or CR are biased. However, there are no other reputable ranking organizations that says otherwise.

I'm not defending VW all that much, but I'm saying that it's gotten totally blown out of proportion. I have issues with VW and the many many cars that I've driven by them, but I find there is a balance between quality, personality and fun to driveness, not because I think VW is the best or most reliable. I've seen so many lemons of various makes. I just hate how the companies rank cars when there are way too many variables to account for. I don't think any maker is the best. Owner's typically don't maintain their cars properly, then complain when something goes wrong or when they get a big bill because many parts have worn out. Anything that moves will wear out, and the components are designed to wear out on every vehicle on the road. Learning the basics about vehicles and maintenance go a lot further than thinking that one make is always superior. Done and done!! :)

[MasterXan]

I'm not defending VW all that much, but I'm saying that it's gotten totally blown out of proportion. I have issues with VW and the many many cars that I've driven by them, but I find there is a balance between quality, personality and fun to driveness, not because I think VW is the best or most reliable. I've seen so many lemons of various makes. I just hate how the companies rank cars when there are way too many variables to account for. I don't think any maker is the best. Owner's typically don't maintain their cars properly, then complain when something goes wrong or when they get a big bill because many parts have worn out. Anything that moves will wear out, and the components are designed to wear out on every vehicle on the road. Learning the basics about vehicles and maintenance go a lot further than thinking that one make is always superior. Done and done!! :)

I understand what you're saying but to be fair, some people just aren't car savvy enough to care. These people would just buy the car, drive it and follow the manufacturer's guide on when to do maintenance. They expect everything would go well if they follow the guide. If through normal usage and things fail, wouldn't the make be to blame?

[stealth]

Since when are sales numbers considered nothing? With VW owning Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley and Buggati, and looking to take over Porsche whenever possible, I'd say they should be the #1 car maker in the world.

You dont seem to know much about either VW or Porsche organizations. Porsche is a large shareholder in VW.

Actually, early in the year it was Porsche making the play to take over VW.
Smaller manufacturer, but much more available cash in the bank to play with, due to their CFO's shrewd financial investments on behalf of the company in non-auto related segments when the auto market showed signs of softening.
It is unlikely the German governement would allow it however, even though they dont have the same anti trust laws we have here.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2009/01/porsche_takeove.html

[TheFuteballer]

You dont seem to know much about either VW or Porsche organizations. Porsche is a large shareholder in VW.

Actually, early in the year it was Porsche making the play to take over VW.
Smaller manufacturer, but much more available cash in the bank to play with, due to their CFO's shrewd financial investments on behalf of the company in non-auto related segments when the auto market showed signs of softening.
It is unlikely the German governement would allow it however, even though they dont have the same anti trust laws we have here.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2009/01/porsche_takeove.html

Yeah sorry I think I got it backwards :)

[PwA]

Love the new rabbit, fun car to drive, no reliability issues (two in the fam, 07 and 09).

Now the Toureg on the other hand.. :lol:

[Hogo]

You dont seem to know much about either VW or Porsche organizations. Porsche is a large shareholder in VW.

Actually, early in the year it was Porsche making the play to take over VW.
Smaller manufacturer, but much more available cash in the bank to play with, due to their CFO's shrewd financial investments on behalf of the company in non-auto related segments when the auto market showed signs of softening.
It is unlikely the German governement would allow it however, even though they dont have the same anti trust laws we have here.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2009/01/porsche_takeove.html

Your information is a little dated..

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jul2009/gb20090720_048461.htm

Porsche's attempt to take over VW is what led to their huge amounts of debt, and now VAG returning the favour. Porsche will become just another brand in the VAG stable.

[Wolfskin]

Love the new rabbit, fun car to drive, no reliability issues (two in the fam, 07 and 09).

Now the Toureg on the other hand.. :lol:

Ask these guys, how they treat their cars, and you'll understand why VW has so many issues.

[god_thanos]

VW has quite a dominance in Europe (I should know, I live in Switzerland). They own (or partially own) other brand such as Audi, Skoda, SEAT, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bentley, and Bugatti. Their truck business include Scania and MAN.

Their market share in NA has grown especially in the luxury line of cars.

In terms of reliability, I think they are close if not equal to the Japanese.

I highly doubt Toyota can reclaim the no. 1 title.
My family in Toronto has always own a Toyota; but the car is no fun to drive. Get behind a wheel of a German car, and you'll really experience driving.

[gordholio]

Please explain

Toyota is going through a rough period, but I expect them to retake the lead.
Anyways, I don't really care. I care more about what's a decent vehicle for a decent price.
VW and Toyota don't fit my requirements for a car that's a decent price.

[golden]

Largest automaker doesn't mean their product is the best. GM used to be number 1, really nothing to celebrate about.

[dhk614]

All those arguments are very polarizing, because everyone's opinion is based on powerful experiences - like getting stranded on the way to an important dinner or job interview. No one ever writes "yes, it gets me everywhere I want to go without incident."
VW and Toyota will duke it out over the years for #1, but in the end who cares who's #1 as long as the car you drive gets you there 1) safely, 2) reliably, 3) efficiently, and 4) exhileratingly. My family's had 7 VWs in over 20 years, and - except for the 76 Rabbit (which I bought for $250 in 1986 and that ONLY disintegrated into rust) - ALL were exceptionally good and fun to drive. My mom's 'daily-driver' '90 Jetta still runs and looks PERFECT, and our TWO current 1997 Jettas (12+ years old) have only just recently showed their age.

And they ALL have reliably and safely gotten all of us up a fairly steep hill to our house through 5 inch deep snow AND in sleet/freezing rain - without a single exception, ever! That where the neighbour's SUV got stuck at the bottom.

Oh, and I sold VWs back in the mid-90s too, so I've seen the customer experience from both sides. Once you've heard some of the absolute "off-the-scale insane" decisions, comments and demands - not requests, but actual hard-line demands - you'll appreciate that not every customer comment and experience accurately reflects a normal and real situation. The 1 guy's 69 beetle motor blew up 30 years ago; news flash: lots of engines blew up back then. Call it 'bad luck' or lack of maintenance; whatever, it's "1" failure. My former boss's old beetle flipped onto its roof & into a snowbank in a heavy blizzard on the 401 outside Cornwall about 35 years ago. He and his wife "rolled it back" onto its wheels & drove it 450 more kilometers to Toronto; then another 5 years without incident. The guy with the 75 Rabbit bought the 1st "real" model year of a completely "new" car for VW: water cooled + unibody + recycled steel = CRAP ... sure, 74 was worse & 76 (mine) only a sliver better, but VW simply had no experience in that department; if you had bought a 78-82 Rabbit, you'd sing a totally different tune - really!!

If anyone thinks that ANY one car maker makes exclusively perfect cars, I suggest hanging out in their service shop for a day and carefully observing the action. I've seen some truly bad Hondas and Toyotas too; not to mention their occasional customer service slip-up. Is VW perfect? Heck no, but let's recognize that what they sell in N. America is RADICALLY different from the European build-quality. And, v.s. Europe, our roads are infinitely worse too.

You'll either love or hate owning one, but most everyone I know loves actually "driving" one. 'nuff said. Happy Driving, all!!

[ssainani]

Largest automaker doesn't mean their product is the best. GM used to be number 1, really nothing to celebrate about.

gm actually makes a great product
and many more better products in most peoples eyes than honda or toyota

the sheep or sociopaths on this board are a piss poor representation of normal society

[KawaiiTentacleBeast]

let's recognize that what they sell in N. America is RADICALLY different from the European build-quality. And, v.s. Europe, our roads are infinitely worse too.

No it isn't. VW/Audi is at the bottom of European reliability surveys too. All the major problems that VWs have are directly attributable to German made components, or just shoddy German design in general, even for their Mexican assembled units.

Show me an example of a major documented defect that's attributable to "what they[VW] sell in N. America". I know Europeans who are actually knowledgeable about cars, none of them take seriously the silly arguments than North American VWVortex people make. In MOST EU countries except Germany, the best selling car is the Ford Focus or the Peugeot 206.

At this point, if I were selling VWs or Audis, I would just laugh in people's faces- it's plainly clear that terrible reliability doesn't actually bother my customers anyway. gilboman is on what, his 5th VW now? Am I worried that he's not going to buy a VW next time? :lol:

[golden]

gm actually makes a great product
and many more better products in most peoples eyes than honda or toyota

the sheep or sociopaths on this board are a piss poor representation of normal society

GM has some great products like the new Camero, the CTS-V and G8. Don't get me wrong, just saying that being biggest doesn't equate to best.

[gilboman]

gm actually makes a great product
and many more better products in most peoples eyes than honda or toyota

the sheep or sociopaths on this board are a piss poor representation of normal society


GM made/makes some great products but also a lot of not so great products as well, especially in the past when it was the No.1 automaker.

[stealth]

Your information is a little dated..

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jul2009/gb20090720_048461.htm

Porsche's attempt to take over VW is what led to their huge amounts of debt, and now VAG returning the favour. Porsche will become just another brand in the VAG stable.

Ha, ha...interesting. Thanks for that. Although July news seems dated as well now in mid-November. :)
Something tells me, its much ado about nothing, perhaps partially to generate buzz around stock values, and for the near future, things will go on largely the same.

[mr_raider]

but he's refering to some kind of "buy German" incentive. Aren't Renault and Peugeot French companies?

Yup. Unlike the AMerican incentive, the German program encouraged buying German products.I think that gave an artificial boost to their sales. I'm not sure how enamored the average German is with VW's products, as you are just a likely to see a Toyota or Ford on the roads of Hamburg. In the world of German auto reliability, BMW is probably the best of a bad bunch.

[mr_raider]

I just dug up my copy of the Internationale Automobil-Auststellung 2009, the mag from 2009 Auto show (yeah I read 'em all) :cheesygri

If I look at "family cars" in Germany, the VW Golf VAriant (station wagon) starts at 18500 Euros for teh 1.4L gas version and tops out at 26000 Euros for the 2.0 TDI. The Opel AStra 4 door hatch will seel for 15900 (cheapest gas motor 1.4L) up to 24000 for the 2.0 diesel.

It seems in Europe, VW is priced in line with the competition, and doesn't command a price premium like here in North AMerica.

[Anonymouse]

That direct injection 1.4 litre engine is a work of art - I wonder why they don't sell it here.

[dhk614]

I wouldn't call a 10% price gap "priced in line" ... that's actually quite a difference for "comparably engineered & equipped" vehicles - IF that's what they are.

The fact is some people will always dump on something/one, for whatever reason. What's important to recognize is that cars are complex engineered & assembled devices that are subject to weather, road hazzard, driver abuse and owner neglect. They're also a function of the materials & processes that go into making them. A bad or contaminated batch of something, or a hung-over assembly-line worker can really f*#k up the product. Happens with cars as it does with computers, and plastic toys from China. When you sell millions of something, there's bound to be a bad one or 2 somewhere. Even Toyota's got them.

I/we love driving VWs and have been fortunate as 20+ year owners, but don't easily accept that it deserves a substantial (i.e. 10%) price premium over another comparable product. At least that stupid 24 month warranty is gone!

And their recent riverdance with their product lines, options & pricing - especially in US vs. Canada is frustrating the snot out of me as a consumer.


I just dug up my copy of the Internationale Automobil-Auststellung 2009, the mag from 2009 Auto show (yeah I read 'em all) :cheesygri

If I look at "family cars" in Germany, the VW Golf VAriant (station wagon) starts at 18500 Euros for teh 1.4L gas version and tops out at 26000 Euros for the 2.0 TDI. The Opel AStra 4 door hatch will seel for 15900 (cheapest gas motor 1.4L) up to 24000 for the 2.0 diesel.

It seems in Europe, VW is priced in line with the competition, and doesn't command a price premium like here in North AMerica.

[mr_raider]

That direct injection 1.4 litre engine is a work of art - I wonder why they don't sell it here.

Engine produces 59kW and 132 Nm or torque. Convert it imperial if you like, it strill blows.

[gilboman]

I wouldn't call a 10% price gap "priced in line" ... that's actually quite a difference for "comparably engineered & equipped" vehicles - IF that's what they are.

The fact is some people will always dump on something/one, for whatever reason. What's important to recognize is that cars are complex engineered & assembled devices that are subject to weather, road hazzard, driver abuse and owner neglect. They're also a function of the materials & processes that go into making them. A bad or contaminated batch of something, or a hung-over assembly-line worker can really f*#k up the product. Happens with cars as it does with computers, and plastic toys from China. When you sell millions of something, there's bound to be a bad one or 2 somewhere. Even Toyota's got them.

I/we love driving VWs and have been fortunate as 20+ year owners, but don't easily accept that it deserves a substantial (i.e. 10%) price premium over another comparable product. At least that stupid 24 month warranty is gone!

And their recent riverdance with their product lines, options & pricing - especially in US vs. Canada is frustrating the snot out of me as a consumer.

Yup, every car company will make some bad/unreliable cars due to whatever reason. Just that VW consistently makes bad cars, so whereas a Toyota/Honda/Lexus will make 10 bad/unreliable cars out of 1000, VW would make 1001 unreliable cars out of every 1000:lol:

[Wolfskin]

I just dug up my copy of the Internationale Automobil-Auststellung 2009, the mag from 2009 Auto show (yeah I read 'em all) :cheesygri

If I look at "family cars" in Germany, the VW Golf VAriant (station wagon) starts at 18500 Euros for teh 1.4L gas version and tops out at 26000 Euros for the 2.0 TDI. The Opel AStra 4 door hatch will seel for 15900 (cheapest gas motor 1.4L) up to 24000 for the 2.0 diesel.

It seems in Europe, VW is priced in line with the competition, and doesn't command a price premium like here in North AMerica.

That price is the real price. You pay that, and you drive the car out.

[Wolfskin]

VW has quite a dominance in Europe (I should know, I live in Switzerland). They own (or partially own) other brand such as Audi, Skoda, SEAT, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bentley, and Bugatti. Their truck business include Scania and MAN.

Their market share in NA has grown especially in the luxury line of cars.

In terms of reliability, I think they are close if not equal to the Japanese.

I highly doubt Toyota can reclaim the no. 1 title.
My family in Toronto has always own a Toyota; but the car is no fun to drive. Get behind a wheel of a German car, and you'll really experience driving.

Even if there is not other brand in this world, I'd rather walk or bike to work, then get a Toyota. It's just an ugly car. I don't care how reliable is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd5WGLWNllA
Look at how VW Phaeton is made. Germans are crazy. Look at the concept.

From hundreds of people that I know in Europe, a lot own VW, and not a single one has ever complained about the reliabilty.Ever. Those young folks who can afford Golf, are lucky, cause it's much more expensive than the rest of the brands, like fiat punto, peugeot 207, citoren c3, renault megane , astra etc..

[Anonymouse]

Engine produces 59kW and 132 Nm or torque. Convert it imperial if you like, it strill blows.

The one I'm thinking of makes 160 PS and 177 lb-ft. It won Engine of the Year this year. It "blows" in that it is both supercharged and turbocharged, so I agree with you in that sense.

[gilboman]

Even if there is not other brand in this world, I'd rather walk or bike to work, then get a Toyota. It's just an ugly car. I don't care how reliable is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd5WGLWNllA
Look at how VW Phaeton is made. Germans are crazy. Look at the concept.

From hundreds of people that I know in Europe, a lot own VW, and not a single one has ever complained about the reliabilty.Ever. Those young folks who can afford Golf, are lucky, cause it's much more expensive than the rest of the brands, like fiat punto, peugeot 207, citoren c3, renault megane , astra etc..

Germans have trailed the Japanese for a long time in manufacturing, even the Koreans have leapfrogged them. It's sad when you see brands like MB struggle to make a car not self destruct and VW is just a joke.

The people in Europe don't complain because they are used to being shafted and they drive a lot less than people in N.America. Less driving, Less chance of stuff to go wrong.

The germans used to be the pinnacle of auto manufacturing and design, they are too busy playing catchup now.

For reliability, Japanese win out, Performance Japanese, Value Japanese/Korean. Technology - Japanese

Other than BMW, the germans don't drive that well compared to even Acura or Infiniti. Luxury, the Germans long ceded the crown to japanese a decade ago.

[new_vr]

Germans have trailed the Japanese for a long time in manufacturing, even the Koreans have leapfrogged them. It's sad when you see brands like MB struggle to make a car not self destruct and VW is just a joke.

The people in Europe don't complain because they are used to being shafted and they drive a lot less than people in N.America. Less driving, Less chance of stuff to go wrong.

The germans used to be the pinnacle of auto manufacturing and design, they are too busy playing catchup now.

For reliability, Japanese win out, Performance Japanese, Value Japanese/Korean. Technology - Japanese

Other than BMW, the germans don't drive that well compared to even Acura or Infiniti. Luxury, the Germans long ceded the crown to japanese a decade ago.
So, at what point do you cut your loses, and say, I messed up, time to get two new cars?

[gilboman]

So, at what point do you cut your loses, and say, I messed up, time to get two new cars?

not everybody cares about value, performance, reliability or service you know right?

hence why I have a VW. Resale is good so i can unload the car onto someone when the warranty is up (4yr warranty on the VW also helps minimize expensive repair costs). oil change every 16k means i can minimize dealer interaction. There's lots of little things wrong with the VW's, but i dont take it back unless the car is undriveable. Though on the weekend when changing tires for winter my friends had a good laugh on how the car is falling apart inside.

But I'm pretty lucky that the Rabbit has held up much better than the GTI (which has had lots of engine/electrical issues).

[new_vr]

not everybody cares about value, performance, reliability or service you know right?

Usually they care about at least one of those factors...

[malaco0219]

Usually they care about at least one of those factors...

Maybe he doesnt.. :lol:

not everybody cares about value, performance, reliability or service you know right?

hence why I have a VW. Resale is good so i can unload the car onto someone when the warranty is up (4yr warranty on the VW also helps minimize expensive repair costs). oil change every 16k means i can minimize dealer interaction. There's lots of little things wrong with the VW's, but i dont take it back unless the car is undriveable. Though on the weekend when changing tires for winter my friends had a good laugh on how the car is falling apart inside.

But I'm pretty lucky that the Rabbit has held up much better than the GTI (which has had lots of engine/electrical issues).

Lol... like what?

I'm not defending VW in anyway, but don't ever see a basis for your "comments"

[Wolfskin]

Germans have trailed the Japanese for a long time in manufacturing, even the Koreans have leapfrogged them. It's sad when you see brands like MB struggle to make a car not self destruct and VW is just a joke.

The people in Europe don't complain because they are used to being shafted and they drive a lot less than people in N.America. Less driving, Less chance of stuff to go wrong.

The germans used to be the pinnacle of auto manufacturing and design, they are too busy playing catchup now.

For reliability, Japanese win out, Performance Japanese, Value Japanese/Korean. Technology - Japanese

Other than BMW, the germans don't drive that well compared to even Acura or Infiniti. Luxury, the Germans long ceded the crown to japanese a decade ago.

Germans are trailing no one. They are the BEST.Go there, and see what's going on. Have you ever been in a manufacturing company in Germany/Austria, or Japan?

[Wolfskin]

Germans have trailed the Japanese for a long time in manufacturing, even the Koreans have leapfrogged them. It's sad when you see brands like MB struggle to make a car not self destruct and VW is just a joke.

The people in Europe don't complain because they are used to being shafted and they drive a lot less than people in N.America. Less driving, Less chance of stuff to go wrong.

The germans used to be the pinnacle of auto manufacturing and design, they are too busy playing catchup now.

For reliability, Japanese win out, Performance Japanese, Value Japanese/Korean. Technology - Japanese

Other than BMW, the germans don't drive that well compared to even Acura or Infiniti. Luxury, the Germans long ceded the crown to japanese a decade ago.



Germans are trailing no one. They are the BEST.Go there, and see what's going on. Have you ever been in a manufacturing company in Germany/Austria, or Japan?

[darek_dade]

Even if there is not other brand in this world, I'd rather walk or bike to work, then get a Toyota. It's just an ugly car. I don't care how reliable is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd5WGLWNllA
Look at how VW Phaeton is made. Germans are crazy. Look at the concept.

From hundreds of people that I know in Europe, a lot own VW, and not a single one has ever complained about the reliabilty.Ever. Those young folks who can afford Golf, are lucky, cause it's much more expensive than the rest of the brands, like fiat punto, peugeot 207, citoren c3, renault megane , astra etc..

Errrr, you're comparing apples and oranges. Citroen c4, 307 and bravo is more in pair with astra and golf. And phateon is one of the biggest mistakes VW has ever made.

[froesesp]

Germans have trailed the Japanese for a long time in manufacturing, even the Koreans have leapfrogged them. It's sad when you see brands like MB struggle to make a car not self destruct and VW is just a joke.

The people in Europe don't complain because they are used to being shafted and they drive a lot less than people in N.America. Less driving, Less chance of stuff to go wrong.

The germans used to be the pinnacle of auto manufacturing and design, they are too busy playing catchup now.

For reliability, Japanese win out, Performance Japanese, Value Japanese/Korean. Technology - Japanese

Other than BMW, the germans don't drive that well compared to even Acura or Infiniti. Luxury, the Germans long ceded the crown to japanese a decade ago.

I had a good laugh reading this. Obviously he has no idea what he's talking about.

[malaco0219]

I had a good laugh reading this. Obviously he has no idea what he's talking about.

looooool :D +1