GST, PST.....now TST?

[winner2000]

...*sigh*


Toronto needs to levy its own sales tax, city budget chief says

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2009/11/05/toronto-needs-to-levy-its-own-sales-tax-city-budget-chief-says.aspx

Shelley Carroll, the city budget chief who is considering a bid for the mayoralty, suggested yesterday that Toronto should levy a municipal sales tax.

“We will soon be the only city of its size in North America that doesn’t have a sales tax,” Councillor Carroll (Don Valley East) told a breakfast discussion at the National Club. “We are missing an opportunity to build it into the HST.”

Is Ms. Carroll actually saying she wants to run for mayor on the program of bringing in a new tax? This seems a kamikaze act, a point I made yesterday as a panelist with Ms. Carroll during the discussion, “Toronto’s Budget: Priorities for 2010.” At the same time, it is hardly a revolutionary idea.

“There is one thing that stopped New York City from going broke in the early 1960s, and that was the sales tax,” Ms. Carroll said, adding that Chicago, too, uses proceeds from its sales tax to fund its transit system. “If it’s not a part of the discussion then you’re just fooling yourself.”

This idea goes even further than Mayor David Miller’s famous “One Cent Now” campaign, which he splashed all over bus shelters two years ago, asking Ottawa to fork over to cities 1¢ of the GST. Mr. Miller wanted the money, not the power to collect the tax on hamburgers and haircuts. His idea did not fly in Ottawa.

Ms. Carroll calls a city sales tax a prerequisite for Toronto’s success, and even suggested that Mr. Miller was willing to carry the ball for a local sales tax -- as part of the HST rollout next year -- before his abrupt decision to not seek a third term as mayor.

“Every global city has two things we don’t,” she said. “A stable formula for sharing operating costs of public transit with the federal government, and revenue sources that grow with the economy.”

Ms. Carroll has some fans with her tax plan. Glen Murray, the former mayor of Winnipeg who now heads the Canadian Urban Institute in Toronto, has long been a fan of city sales taxes. Mr. Murray, considering his own bid for the Toronto mayoralty, notes that major U.S. cities benefit when tourists visit, for example, by collecting sales taxes on the tourists’ purchases, whereas Canadian cities end up subsidizing tourists’ transit rides without realizing any benefits. He did not return calls yesterday.

The Toronto Board of Trade, whose director of policy Brian Zeiler-Kligman also joined the panel yesterday -- organized by Global Public Affairs -- dodged a question about a city sales tax, saying he’d wait and see whether any politician had the guts to actually ask for that tax authority. Toronto right now has power in the City of Toronto Act to levy a hotel tax and a liquor tax, but has not done so.

What is the right level of taxation? Toronto did last year impose a vehicle registration tax and a land transfer tax. Yesterday a city council committee discussed a new tax on billboards. We also pay separately for water and garbage.

“Holy mackerel,” said Councillor Doug Holyday (Etobicoke Centre), when told of Ms. Carroll’s tax idea. “Those other taxes that were supposed to save our ass are only paying half of the subsidy for the TTC.”

He noted that the city subsidy to the TTC operating budget has leapt from 14% to 29% over the past few years, and suggested Toronto should spend less rather than tax more.

Right now, the city budget is a messy document, with money coursing in from Ottawa and Ontario -- from the gas tax and elsewhere -- and flowing out the other end; a city sales tax, if it’s not a new tax grab, has the potential to clarify the role of each level of government. Toronto, however, always seems to spend every penny it gets -- and then look for more.

“We are now getting $600-million a year more from the federal and provincial government,” Mr. Zeiler-Kligman told the panel yesterday. “The problem is that the city budget has grown by $1-billion in that period.”

Read more: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2009/11/05/toronto-needs-to-levy-its-own-sales-tax-city-budget-chief-says.aspx#ixzz0VzmhRwU5

[Eyies]

I propose Eyies Sales Tax (EST).

[Akraz]

Excuse me while i vomit :cry:

[DJ Dennis]

Well, someone's not getting my vote.

[ChopSuey]

Why not just tax us 100% and get it over with. :mad:

[Shinyuki]

It only makes sense if they aren't using the money to inflate councilors and politicians salaries. *cough* e-health scandal...

[dr.slump]

be ready, cause pretty soon they'll just take your paycheck and give you an allowances. :-0

I am seriously thinking about what kinda tax they'll think of next?! In a year and a half, they have introduce the land transfer tax, the vehicle registration tax, garbage tax, and the plastic bag tax. And isn't our garbage tax and water rate and property tax all going up? Not to mentioned the TTC...all the while we were deprived of municipal services for months.

The only other organization that have the nerve to increase fees while giving sub-standard or crappy value is MLSE. >:(

Keep going to the well, and one day it'll be dry...

mmm at least i guess the 905 retailers will be happy.

[angekfire]

I propose Eyies Sales Tax (EST).

I propose Eastern Standard Time (EST)

[Qbit]

I hope property taxes go up by 10%. Some of you people in Toronto don't live in reality. The residents (you) have been shielded from it for too long.

[thelefteyeguy]

btw Shelley Carroll's an idoit; someone explain to me why she's the budget chief for one of the largest cities in North America

another decade...there won't be anyone living in Toronto.

Guess she didnt read the report on businesses leaving Toronto...wait until she gets the report on ppl leaving the City of Toronto.

[marcopolo85]

Oh good TST. I wonder what new tax we will have tomorrow.

[thelefteyeguy]

I hope property taxes go up by 10%. Some of you people in Toronto don't live in reality. The residents (you) have been shielded from it for too long.

Reality is cuts in spending needs to happen...not continuous spending. Even McFly knows that at Queens Park.

But I won't get into a political argument

[Qbit]

Do you know how much property taxes have gone up in the 905 area compared to Toronto over the past few years? Double, even triple the rate in Toronto. The bag tax, land transfer tax, etc hide the truth from residents. You won't get any honest debate so long as everyone thinks even 1% tax increase is a personal attack on them and their family.

[Homer88]

The moment I saw TST, I thought of Tsim Sha Tsui... :lol:

[Flyer]

The moment I saw TST, I thought of Tsim Sha Tsui... :lol:
I thought of Initial D: Arcade Stage 3 :rolleyes:

[xstatik]

A new retail sales tax in Toronto would lead Toronto into a Detroit situation, Stores, restaurants etc will lost business to the 905, and with them gone, the residents will follow, leaving Toronto to rot like Detroit is right now.

[flexwong]

A new retail sales tax in Toronto would lead Toronto into a Detroit situation, Stores, restaurants etc will lost business to the 905, and with them gone, the residents will follow, leaving Toronto to rot like Detroit is right now.

actually, the underlying reason for Detroit's demise is b/c of the failure of the Big Three. Detroit lived off of GM, Ford and Chrysler.

[Homer88]

I thought of Initial D: Arcade Stage 3 :rolleyes:

LOLLLL, that too :lol:

[bionicbadger]

hahahahaha toronto :lol:

[Ebola]

It would only make sense if it meant that a city specific tax meant no provincial tax.

The whole point being if the city generates its own tax base, far less money will be given to them by the province.

The province would lose a massive tax base though, so I think it's pie in the sky.

[_Allan_]

we can only hope that Derrek doesn't start the RFDST and try to make us pay for services! hahaha

[jcon]

You do realize that you pay this tax anyhow, right? It's just called something else.

The idea of municipal sales tax makes a lot of sense. It means that, TO in this case, would be able to control a lot more of the funds rather than begging the other levels of government for money. A consumption tax makes more sense than continually raising property taxes.

Also you get to collect from visitors who consume TO resources but take their paycheques 'home'.

This is not a bad 'idea' if it's a zero sum change (offset by payroll tax deductions). Knee-jerk responses are silly.

[myversa]

A new retail sales tax in Toronto would lead Toronto into a Detroit situation, Stores, restaurants etc will lost business to the 905, and with them gone, the residents will follow, leaving Toronto to rot like Detroit is right now.

That's what we said to our coming-soon HST...... in B.C...

[45ED]

I propose Eastern Standard Time (EST)

The suggestion, which has since been turned down (http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20091105/taxes_toronto_091105/20091105?hub=Toronto), sounds more like "Eat Sh*t Torontonians" (EST). Which, figuratively speaking, is all we were going to be able to afford if said tax were implemented.

[5dark]

A consumption tax makes more sense than continually raising property taxes.

Also you get to collect from visitors who consume TO resources but take their paycheques 'home'.

This is not a bad 'idea' if it's a zero sum change (offset by payroll tax deductions). Knee-jerk responses are silly.

I like this idea if it is indeed done this way.
Just make sure it's explicit in the literature, or you'll get the same mess as the Green Shift (where no one realized it would be offset by lower income tax).

[help_questions]

it's what you get for continuing to vote for left wing nuts like miller and giambrone.

exactly. we need someone to run Toronto like a business, and cut wages and benefits and services, instead of spending and spending and then raising taxes

I am seriously thinking about what kinda tax they'll think of next?! In a year and a half, they have introduce the land transfer tax, the vehicle registration tax, garbage tax, and the plastic bag tax. And isn't our garbage tax and water rate and property tax all going up? Not to mentioned the TTC...all the while we were deprived of municipal services for months.

The only other organization that have the nerve to increase fees while giving sub-standard or crappy value is MLSE. >:(

Keep going to the well, and one day it'll be dry...

mmm at least i guess the 905 retailers will be happy.

Toronto has so many problems. they should be scrutinizing service delivery and cutting costs instead of raising taxes..

For example, how can they give garbagemen a raise and then raise taxes?....why not just cut the garbageman's wage, or hire someone to do the job at a cheaper cost....I am sure may of the unemployed people in the city would do it.

of course, this would not work for all services.....they shouldn't cut the wages of the paramedics or cops. But for jobs like garbagemen or parks maintenance, I argue that they should be cutting wages immediately, and that they should constantly be trying to find ways to cut costs and wages...
Perhaps they won't find someone to do the job for less, but my main problem is that they are not even trying

But I guess it is easier to take taxpayer money

It's okay though, this is good for the 905, so I welcome a Toronto tax

Also you get to collect from visitors who consume TO resources but take their paycheques 'home'.

This is a good point. Like the TTC....Toronto tax dollars subsidize a transit system that many 905ers use....
increasing the cost for those who use the services is better than increasing the taxes for all toronto residents.

[angekfire]

I like this idea if it is indeed done this way.
Just make sure it's explicit in the literature, or you'll get the same mess as the Green Shift (where no one realized it would be offset by lower income tax).

And TST will be coined "Testicular Service Tax".

Because it's gunna kick you in the nuts if it goes through.

[Qbit]

The suggestion, which has since been turned down (http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20091105/taxes_toronto_091105/20091105?hub=Toronto), sounds more like "Eat Sh*t Torontonians" (EST). Which, figuratively speaking, is all we were going to be able to afford if said tax were implemented.

Seeing as how the entire country was paying 2% more on everything for the past two decades, how did the world not collapse and implode in that time?

[WontonTiger]

Seeing as how the entire country was paying 2% more on everything for the past two decades, how did the world not collapse and implode in that time?

It doesn't have to "collapse and implode" for things to get worse.

So as long as something doesn't collapse and implode, that means it's working?

Besides, in real terms, the middle class today is less wealthy than in the past. There was a great news story about how real wages (accounting for inflation and the price of necessities) have decreased the last 20 years (for the middle class). I think it might have been WSJ or Time magazine, however I'm a little foggy on the details. I won't go further because I can't site the source.

[robster77]

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2009/11/05/11648796.html

I hate this city.

[champlinD]

Province says no to T.O. municipal sales tax (http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20091105/taxes_toronto_091105/20091105?hub=Toronto)

"But the report says the new user fees and fee increases will guarantee the city an extra $1.95 million in revenues in 2010 -- funds that will help Toronto tackle a huge budget shortfall."


http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20091105/160_carroll_091105.jpg
Toronto's budget chief Shelley Carroll
speaks at a hearing at city hall in Toronto,
Thursday, Nov. 5, 2009.

[Hairball]

Seeing as how the entire country was paying 2% more on everything for the past two decades, how did the world not collapse and implode in that time?

It isn't the end of the world, but Canadians are always being gouged by governments, corporations, and often both.

Toronto needs to find some efficiencies if anything.

[sonyminidiscman]

I'd like to propose GRT.

Government Revenue Tax.

For every dollar the government gets, we get 50% back.

[LaserEnvy]

Next we're going to have Fart Tax.

[moxy]

I blame Harris

[robster77]

Next we're going to have Fart Tax.

Not while Miller is still in power. He's full of hot air.

[MasterXan]

I blame Harris

yeah i blame him too...


for stepping away from politics

@Rob

am I seeing things here? you and the rest of folks are on the same page on this issue? i always thought you're on the far left.

[zenpher]

Montreal anyone?

[danman227460]

I say Mississauga :P. We need an Entertainment District, shootings and other nonsensical taxes to liven up the city. It dies after 9 PM every day, including weekends. Or maybe not.

[zenpher]

You know...


No matter how bad it gets here, and no matter how much these scumbags steal from our wallets, it sure as hell beats swedens 50% personal income tax and 25% VAT sales tax.

[asdfvcx]

There are two separate issues here. The first is how city governments spend their cash and how they raise it.

People in this thread seem to be mainly focused on the first issue, when this is in many ways actually deals with the second issue.


Cities are responsible for providing a large number of services, but constitutionally, they have no guaranteed taxation powers. They can only levy taxes or fees with the permission of their provincial government. This really isn't a good situation.

The cities will get the bulk of their revenue from grants from the provincial government, property taxes and any fees and fines they may impose. However, there are many problems with being restricted to these sources.

Anytime the provincial government runs into financial problems, it is usually tempted to reduce the size of the grants to the cities. Even though when the governments run into financial problems, demand for city services usually rise.

Taxing people on the value of their property is simply a bizarre form of taxation. For example, it causes large problems on seniors with fixed incomes if they see the values of their homes shoot up. Many people question whether is really makes sense to tax seniors (and others) more just because their neighbourhood became more fashionable.

And besides being very annoying, large fees for city services for usually act as a disincentive toward development.


So, there are a number of problems with the methods by which cities receive their revenue. While a sales tax is not perfect, it does seem to be a better method (especially if similar to the GST, there is a rebate offered to low income earners to make it more progressive). It gives the city much more control over how much they take in, and it does a much better job of taking taxes from residents based on their incomes.


Now whether or not the introduction of a sales tax is combined with a reduction in other taxes is another question. If you feel it should be, then I encourage you to become more involved in the political process (more than just posting to an anonymous message board). But I feel it would be much better is cities moved away from their current forms of receiving revenue, and moved towards a better one, where they (and the voters) have much more control over the city revenue.

[kingrukus]

yay, more motivation to move to the states
*prays that the situation down south improves within the next 5 years*

[ShadowVlican]

yet people still continue to do business here...

[flexwong]

You know...


No matter how bad it gets here, and no matter how much these scumbags steal from our wallets, it sure as hell beats swedens 50% personal income tax and 25% VAT sales tax.

you'll always find a place that's worse than what you have. that's not an excuse for the current situation though.

I blame Harris

is your first name dalton? 6 years since he's left and this province has never been in a more horrible state.

[edkate]

This Carrol lady - geez! she's really brave!...and stupid:D
I dont think she's getting my vote!

I think we pay enough taxes already...
I live in York region though...but used to live in Toronto for 11 years...I honestly dont know where the city is rolling down to....TTC fare hike, garbage strike, rodents infestations....holy molly...

[Majinvegeta]

Next we're going to have Fart Tax.

well we do have a Carbon tax, that itself is a joke. So I wouldn't be surprised if we have an OXYGEN TAX next.

They'll be scaring the population, saying we're running out of trees! we're running out of oxygen! we needs monies to grow more trees!! :lol:

[Nettles]

No matter how bad it gets here, and no matter how much these scumbags steal from our wallets, it sure as hell beats swedens 50% personal income tax and 25% VAT sales tax.

Although something like a 50% tax SUCKS....you used the worst example. Don't compare Canada to Sweden...they actually have service. Their bureaucracy hasn't gone completely corrupt, you stilla get stuff done.

The funniest thing to me though is this....people use the rephrase that we live in a democracy. But politicians aren't really held accountable by the average citizen and they don't make decisions beneficial to us....this tax or something similar could happen and the only resistance would be on radio talk shows and forums like these. A bit disheartening to feel like an ant.