TTC proposes fare hike

[neomatrix]

From globe and mail

"The Toronto Transit Commission is proposing a fare hike that would see cash fares increase by 25 cents to $3 and the cost of a monthly metropass rise to $126 from $109.

The proposal goes to the TTC for approval at its Nov. 17 meeting, which would allow the required six-week notice for a price increase effective Jan. 3.

If approved, it would be the first across-the-board fare hike since the 1990s.

The TTC last raised fares in 2007, with a 15-cent increase in the price of a token.

A spokesman for Toronto Mayor David Miller, who ruled out a fare increase this year because of the recession, said the mayor will not stand in the way of an increase in 2010. However, spokesman Stuart Green said the mayor hopes to curb the cost of a regular monthly metropass."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/ttc-proposes-fare-hike/article1351264/

[dragon_drift]

=(

I better fill up on tokens now. sigh


once again, students get screwed

[user01]

TTC ponders double-digit fare increase
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/721193--ttc-ponders-double-digit-fare-increase?bn=1

[Qbit]

So what? The complainers on the newspaper sites get tiresome. Fares should be going up by inflation each and every year so that we don't get big spikes every 2-3 years.

[Aznsilvrboy]

a $17 increase for the metropass? no way...now i'll have to reevaluate whether or not it's worth it to keep buy it, even with the student discount...might have to resort to stocking up on tokens now like the other poster said.

[Bskll]

So what? The complainers on the newspaper sites get tiresome. Fares should be going up by inflation each and every year so that we don't get big spikes every 2-3 years.

why should they do that? if so, why doesn't our minimum wage keep up with inflation too?

[shannn]

Wow, I'd better stock up on tokens

Unless the TTC allows metropass parking again, there is no way it would be worth buying a metropass for $126. Are they freakin nuts?!?!?!

They keep making driving a more attractive alternative. I mean, I can pay $125/month for parking. And it cuts my commute from 1.5 hours one way to 40 minutes.

[Aznsilvrboy]

why should they do that? if so, why doesn't our minimum wage keep up with inflation too?

Isn't there a plan to raise Ontario's minimum wage by $0.75/year until it hits $10.50 (next March)? When it just began a few years ago, the increase was almost 10%/year, and finally it's ~7.6% next year. Is the inflation rate higher or lower?

[simms]

why should they do that? if so, why doesn't our minimum wage keep up with inflation too?

Uh, it does. And inflation is negative for the moment. Historically it's been around the 2% range (http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/cpi.html), so a 7-10% increase in the min. wage is still far and above inflation.

It's 9.50/hr now, and 10.25/hr next year (http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/info/minimumwage/). A few years ago it was 6.50. Based on this, (http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2009/01/23/f-money-minimum-wage.html) it was $8.50 in 2008.

Wow, I'd better stock up on tokens

Unless the TTC allows metropass parking again, there is no way it would be worth buying a metropass for $126. Are they freakin nuts?!?!?!

They keep making driving a more attractive alternative. I mean, I can pay $125/month for parking. And it cuts my commute from 1.5 hours one way to 40 minutes.

And you can also pay more when gas is $1.30.

a $17 increase for the metropass? no way...now i'll have to reevaluate whether or not it's worth it to keep buy it, even with the student discount...might have to resort to stocking up on tokens now like the other poster said.

Tokens are going to increase more. If you have enough cashflow to buy enough tokens for the next few years, a $17 increase should be the least of your worries. Student Metropasses will still be cheaper than $126 and the tax credit still stands.

Look, bottom line, I hate it just as much as everyone, but the TTC has to be funded somehow. Factoring in the monthly tax credit, it's not so bad.
If anything we have to modernize the system, make everything electronic, and boot the union..at least the fare collectors who are basically overpriced vending machines. I have nothing against the drivers/operators/maintenance.

[Piro21]

If anything we have to modernize the system, make everything electronic, and boot the union..at least the fare collectors who are basically overpriced vending machines. I have nothing against the drivers/operators/maintenance.

I never got why those guys get paid so much. You can walk into any theme park at the end of the season and get 3 experienced ticket agents willing to do that job for a fraction of what they're paying 1 guy for right now. They need to knock some sense into their union.

[shannn]

And you can also pay more when gas is $1.30.

Saving 50 minutes one way (or 1 hour 40 minutes) a day is worth much more than the few buck a day in gas I'd have to pay.
And when it starts snowing and the TTC gets delayed like no tomorrow, I'll probably be saving 3 hours/day

I currently spend $96/month on a metropass. If it goes up by $15 or more, I may just ditch the metropass program, because it is no longer worth it for me at that point (in terms of $$ and time)

[Lovable]

Hopefully this doesn't cause an increase in the GTA transit fares!

[AcidBomber]

well, $17 increase for metropass is rediculous.
the student VIP rate will probably stick around for some months though as the prices are pre-negotiated for a specified duration.

[Matrixvibe]

:(time to stock up?

[Agram]

and boot the union

And what has the Union to do with this increase?

As for collectors......75% of them are injured drivers and other maintenance workers who are either on modified work or have some restrictions which prevent them from doing their regular duties.

[shannn]

:(time to stock up?

Heh, my mom has like, 2000 tokens when she stocked up wayyy back when the TTC tokens costed about $1.50
We still have a massive amount of them because she forgot about them until the TTC changed tokens, so I had to get them all exchanged. Oh gosh, wasn't very fun carrying around that many tokens.

[flexwong]

just like liberal/ndp governments, the TTC uses a "tax and spend" policy. charge the people more and spend more. honestly, is ANYONE ever going to look at cutting some costs at the TTC?

[simms]

Saving 50 minutes one way (or 1 hour 40 minutes) a day is worth much more than the few buck a day in gas I'd have to pay.
And when it starts snowing and the TTC gets delayed like no tomorrow, I'll probably be saving 3 hours/day

I currently spend $96/month on a metropass. If it goes up by $15 or more, I may just ditch the metropass program, because it is no longer worth it for me at that point (in terms of $$ and time)

There's the loss of $200 in tax credits that you'd get from buying a metropass. Obviously if $17/mth makes you want to use a car, drive, park, get stuck in traffic, brush snow off your car, pay maintenance, car insurance, etc, then by all means, you have every right to do so. :D
I'm just saying that I don't know if $17 is really going to change the habits of people that are either used to taking the TTC or are used to driving their cars. Most people will complain and some may threaten to switch, but at the end of the day we're at the mercy of whatever TTC wants to charge.

And what has the Union to do with this increase?
Well, it's apparant the union thinks eacrh transit worker is worth $1 million annually to the city. (http://www.thestar.com/article/331856) Flawed logic aside, imagine all the savings if we replaced fare collectors with full turnstiles and machine dispensers. The long term savings could be used to hire more drivers or supervisors, increase service, or capital improvements, and that's where the money should be going.

Again, I have no qualm with the union except for the collectors. Drivers, maintenance, supevisors and the good folks at Davisville all deserve their cut. It's just a huge inefficiency that I see everyday when using the subway. In a normal workplace, if you get hurt, they just don't shove you in another desk where you can do menial work. If they're injured, they get disability, STD or LTD, or a reduced workplan with a reduced salary. Now, if collectors get a reduced salary relative to the drivers and the maintenance crew, then that's fair.

[Aznsilvrboy]

There's the loss of $200 in tax credits that you'd get from buying a metropass. Obviously if $17/mth makes you want to use a car, drive, park, get stuck in traffic, brush snow off your car, pay maintenance, car insurance, etc, then by all means, you have every right to do so. :D
I'm just saying that I don't know if $17 is really going to change the habits of people that are either used to taking the TTC or are used to driving their cars. Most people will complain and some may threaten to switch, but at the end of the day we're at the mercy of whatever TTC wants to charge.


Well, it's apparant the union thinks each transit worker is worth $1 million annually to the city. (http://www.thestar.com/article/331856) Imagine all the savings if we replaced fare collectors with full turnstiles and machine dispensers. The long term savings could be used to hire more drivers or supervisors, increase service, or capital improvements, and that's where the money should be going.

It's just a huge inefficiency that I see everyday when using the subway. It can be done so much better. In a normal workplace, if you get hurt, they just don't shove you in another desk where you can do menial work. If they're injured, they get disability, STD or LTD, or a reduced workplan with a reduced salary.

Epic...just epic...but so fail at the same time...:|

[CSAgent]

An increase to the worst if not the world's worst public transit system in the world. Funny how that works. The TTC stations are still old, smells funny, damp, wet and cold on any given day and yet people are asked to pay more. Where are the improvements? Oh yeah, the money goes into the union and its workers and not the infrastructure.

[Qbit]

just like liberal/ndp governments, the TTC uses a "tax and spend" policy. charge the people more and spend more. honestly, is ANYONE ever going to look at cutting some costs at the TTC?

Do you have anything to add other than talking points?

[ShadowVlican]

another year.... another transit fare hike... welcome to this world class city called Toronto....

oh... and watch for those token machines becoming "out of order" and token booths that suddenly don't sell 10 at a time :lol:

[corrupt123]

Let me run the TTC, I'll fix it.

[legendofxix]

Let me run the TTC, I'll fix it.
Yep, just give every 5th person a car.
Carpool!

[zenpher]

Wow, more of a Reason to move away from Toronto.

I'm sick and tired of not getting plastic bags while shopping, paying an arm and leg for care insurance + added vehicle taxes, possibly not being allowed to get a coffee cup and now this...

[Shimso]

just like liberal/ndp governments, the TTC uses a "tax and spend" policy. charge the people more and spend more. honestly, is ANYONE ever going to look at cutting some costs at the TTC?

and 680 news is saying the City is considering a "City Tax", a tax on everything sold in the City :|

[Piro21]

I'm almost convinced the city is being leaned on by the Federal government to drive people out and force them to live in other parts of the country. Aside from flat greed it's the only explanation I can think of for the recent wave of government stupidity. The US is going to start getting even more of our qualified grads soon unless things get cheaper.

[MasterXan]

Let me run the TTC, I'll fix it.

gimme the TTC and a long weekend and I'll get it sold :lol:

just like liberal/ndp governments, the TTC uses a "tax and spend" policy. charge the people more and spend more. honestly, is ANYONE ever going to look at cutting some costs at the TTC?

Adam Giambrone is just another politician who probably can't even run a lemonade stand properly and is allowed to run the TTC. he should be lucky that the TTC is run with taxpayer money cause if it's private entity, he would've stepped down a long time ago

[XxXSnake23XxX]

:(time to stock up?

yeah thats what i was thinking..

sucks that consumers can't do nothing about it, whatever the price is, everyone is going to pay none the less

[Mr. Robo]

So a roll of tokens cost $112 now, right?

[Psubs]

Tokens are going to increase more. If you have enough cashflow to buy enough tokens for the next few years, a $17 increase should be the least of your worries. Student Metropasses will still be cheaper than $126 and the tax credit still stands.

Look, bottom line, I hate it just as much as everyone, but the TTC has to be funded somehow. Factoring in the monthly tax credit, it's not so bad.
If anything we have to modernize the system, make everything electronic, and boot the union..at least the fare collectors who are basically overpriced vending machines. I have nothing against the drivers/operators/maintenance.

I thought about doing token-mania, but thought about jumping on the Metropass Discount Plan.

If I start in December I should get the current monthly rate for a full year, so not get dinged by the increase. :razz:


It's decided, I'm doing tokens for December and the MDP for $100 / month starting in January guaranteed for 12 months. Going to get my application in before the November 17th meeting. That should save me around $300 next year.

http://www3.ttc.ca/Fares_and_passes/Passes/Metropass/Metropass_MDP/Metropass_discount_plan_form/index.jsp

[Qbit]

Again, I have no qualm with the union except for the collectors. Drivers, maintenance, supevisors and the good folks at Davisville all deserve their cut. It's just a huge inefficiency that I see everyday when using the subway. In a normal workplace, if you get hurt, they just don't shove you in another desk where you can do menial work. If they're injured, they get disability, STD or LTD, or a reduced workplan with a reduced salary. Now, if collectors get a reduced salary relative to the drivers and the maintenance crew, then that's fair.

I did my own guesstimates and I figured that if you went electronic and eliminated station collectors, you might save like $20-30 million per year or between 1% and 2% of the total operating budget. It would help but would come nowhere close to plugging the shortfall.

Read the above posts, some of these people are vastly overestimating the amounts that could be had. People in general can't wrap their heads around the numbers it takes to do things.

[Mr. Robo]

So I went to 4 different stations and only 2 sold me rolls. Plus, some not so courteous responses from our friendly TTC employees.

Is Davisville the only place that will sell multiple rolls?

[Psubs]

So a roll of tokens cost $112 now, right?

Can you buy rolls from TTC booths?

[Mr. Robo]

Can you buy rolls from TTC booths?

That's where I get mine from. But some of them won't sell it to you.

[corrupt123]

I did my own guesstimates and I figured that if you went electronic and eliminated station collectors, you might save like $20-30 million per year or between 1% and 2% of the total operating budget. It would help but would come nowhere close to plugging the shortfall.

Read the above posts, some of these people are vastly overestimating the amounts that could be had. People in general can't wrap their heads around the numbers it takes to do things.

Yep. People are all huffy-puffy about the booth operators, but the reality is that it's only a couple hundred people (at best) and would be a drop in the bucket overall. Plus, many "efficient" transit systems still have plenty of staff on hand at stations to help tourists and whatnot, so it's not as though these guys are weighing us down. IMO the real benefit of automatic turnstiles (or some alternative) would be the better flow of people.

If the TTC really wanted to save money, here are a few ideas off the top of my head:
First, eliminate the special constables. Unless these guys are paid by someone other than the TTC (Which I doubt) they're basically overpaid security guards. Replace them with police and let the cops pay 'em, or replace them with twice as many security guards for half the cost.
Second, cut the overhead. I suspect there are quite a few office jobs that exist for no reason, and the few friends I have who have done internships or co-op work for the TTC only support this. There are also plenty of pointless expenses that could be cut, like the TTC Supervisors driving around in $70,000 Tahoes checking that the streetcars are running on time at 6am. Is that really necessary, and can it not be monitored from head office?
Third, cut the salaries of upper management and start paying them based on performance. Lets see how quickly things shape up then.
Forth, stop outsourcing advertising and sell adspace in house. It's not like it's a difficult job nor does it require a huge workforce or maintenance. Keeping all these pointless media companies as middlemen is ********.

I think I'd need some detailed budget reports to make any calls beyond that. I'm curious what Agram (and other staff here?) think should be done.

[Euphoriiick]

I haven't really looked but does anyone know how the increases will affect those who are already on the MDP (Monthly Discount Program)?

Moreover, more pressure has to be placed on the provincial and federal governments to provide more funding for transportation, rather than the TTC relying heavily on consumer spending to cover their operating costs.

"The TTC recoups 71 per cent of its costs through the fare box – more than most North American transit systems, which tend to rely more heavily on government subsidies." (http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/721401--can-t-stop-fare-hikes-ttc-says).

[Qbit]

If you're locked-in with the MDP I am pretty sure your price stays there until the end of the term.

The funny thing is, most of the other GTA cities already have $3 cash fares (or higher) and some passes are already beyond the price of TTC passes and service is really bad. Who's flexwong going to blame for that? lol

[Emancipated]

Saving 50 minutes one way (or 1 hour 40 minutes) a day is worth much more than the few buck a day in gas I'd have to pay.
And when it starts snowing and the TTC gets delayed like no tomorrow, I'll probably be saving 3 hours/day

I currently spend $96/month on a metropass. If it goes up by $15 or more, I may just ditch the metropass program, because it is no longer worth it for me at that point (in terms of $$ and time)

I hate to sound ungreen about it, but there is nothing even mildly agreeable about the TTC experience and that worsens tenfold during the winter. The last time I bought a metropass, it was under $100.

I rather pay a little extra and drive.

[twotterdhc6]

First, eliminate the special constables. Unless these guys are paid by someone other than the TTC (Which I doubt) they're basically overpaid security guards. Replace them with police and let the cops pay 'em, or replace them with twice as many security guards for half the cost.
I believe they are/were talking about replacing special constables with real TPS officers, though I'm not convinced there is money to be saved here. Surely, a real TPS cop gets paid more than TTC security?

Forth, stop outsourcing advertising and sell adspace in house. It's not like it's a difficult job nor does it require a huge workforce or maintenance. Keeping all these pointless media companies as middlemen is ********.

That's a bad idea. Advertising is not a core operation, and more important, the city knows squat about marketing and advertising. Let people who do advertising for a living take care of this and kick back a certain % to the city, rather than adding more complication (and sinking more $) into a bungling bureaucracy.

~~
By the way, as a previous poster noted, the TTC currently has the cheapest cash fares among GTA transit operators. This merely puts them in line with everyone else. You Torontonians are spoiled. I pay the same for Mississauga Transit for Christ's sake!

[Psubs]

I haven't really looked but does anyone know how the increases will affect those who are already on the MDP (Monthly Discount Program)?
You are guaranteed 12 months from when you started the MDP, after that you pay whatever they decide to increase.

I just applied to start the MDP from Jan-Dec 2010. :razz:

If you're locked-in with the MDP I am pretty sure your price stays there until the end of the term.

The funny thing is, most of the other GTA cities already have $3 cash fares (or higher) and some passes are already beyond the price of TTC passes and service is really bad. Who's flexwong going to blame for that? lol

Cash fares are too reasonable. I wouldn't mind that jumping to $3.50. Tokens are fine at $2.50. Metropass should only be raised to $220.

Well, I just bought a roll of 50 for $112.50 to use in the short work-month of December.

[Beerman2000]

corrupt123 - nice post with some constructive ideas. Much more readable than some easy answers tossed out there with no thought to how they can be achieved.

So I thought I'd ask here because I bet the MDP (Metro Pass Discount) number is clogged right now with RFD fans wanting to get in on the yearly plan before prices go up:

Is the monthly debit the only way to go for a year's worth of metropasses? Can I give them a lump sum when I sign up?

ALso: Psubs which booth sold you a roll BTW

[zenpher]

By the way, as a previous poster noted, the TTC currently has the cheapest cash fares among GTA transit operators. This merely puts them in line with everyone else. You Torontonians are spoiled. I pay the same for Mississauga Transit for Christ's sake!


It's supply and demand. You can push more riders per bus in Toronto than Mississauga. The TTC is just poorly managed, as is the city itself.

[Beerman2000]

Talked to Trevor at the MDP office:

Current yearly plan members and new members who wish to purchase the MetroPass Discount Plan for December must do so by 5pm today.

If you miss the deadline you will be purchasing for January and WILL be subject to the fare hike.

Telephone: 416-397-8827
Fax: 416-338-0210
Email: mdp@ttc.ca

Also Trevor answered my previous question, you may purchase a year in advance by credit card (in fact that's all you can do with a credit card) in person. Again do this by 5pm today to avoid the hike.

1900 Yonge Street, Toronto M4S 1Z2

[Psubs]

Talked to Trevor at the MDP office:

Current yearly plan members and new members who wish to purchase the MetroPass Discount Plan for December must do so by 5pm today.

If you miss the deadline you will be purchasing for January and WILL be subject to the fare hike.

Telephone: 416-397-8827
Fax: 416-338-0210
Email: mdp@ttc.ca

Also Trevor answered my previous question, you may purchase a year in advance by credit card (in fact that's all you can do with a credit card) in person. Again do this by 5pm today to avoid the hike.

1900 Yonge Street, Toronto M4S 1Z2

I was told that I wouldn't be subject to the hike as long as you applied before the decision. :mad:

The fair hike won't kick in until January 3rd. Technicall, I should be able to buy a $109 January Metropass from like the 24th until January 2nd, no? CONFUSED :(

[MrDisco]

If the TTC really wanted to save money, here are a few ideas off the top of my head:

your ideas may have merit, however in my opinion even if they were all implemented it would be an utter pittance compared to the millions required just to keep operations status quo. tack on many more millions if we want expansion and upgrades.
you simply can't brush off decades of neglect without a massive infusion of tax payer dollars.

[Psubs]

Talked to Trevor at the MDP office:

Current yearly plan members and new members who wish to purchase the MetroPass Discount Plan for December must do so by 5pm today.

If you miss the deadline you will be purchasing for January and WILL be subject to the fare hike.

Telephone: 416-397-8827
Fax: 416-338-0210
Email: mdp@ttc.ca

Also Trevor answered my previous question, you may purchase a year in advance by credit card (in fact that's all you can do with a credit card) in person. Again do this by 5pm today to avoid the hike.

1900 Yonge Street, Toronto M4S 1Z2

You are correct.

I just changed my MDP plan to run from Dec. 2009 - Nov. 2010.

Maybe I won't buy a 2nd roll of tokens.

[WontonTiger]

So what? The complainers on the newspaper sites get tiresome. Fares should be going up by inflation each and every year so that we don't get big spikes every 2-3 years.

Or they could trim the wages of some of the collectors/drivers/mechanics/managers/office workers/etc. and then reduce the price of a ride. Bring them all down to market value (or less in some cases). These are gov't jobs, they should pay market rates or possibly less. The reason I say this is because gov't jobs have safety nets that most jobs do not. It is also much harder to contract gov't jobs once they are given (mostly because of unions).

They get too much for something that isn't too difficult, and the rest of us have to pay for it. Does anyone know the "general" cost breakdown for the TTC (i.e. percentage that goes to wages, upkeep, new routes, equipment, etc.)?

Wow, I'd better stock up on tokens

Unless the TTC allows metropass parking again, there is no way it would be worth buying a metropass for $126. Are they freakin nuts?!?!?!

They keep making driving a more attractive alternative. I mean, I can pay $125/month for parking. And it cuts my commute from 1.5 hours one way to 40 minutes.

Except that the gov't keeps making it harder to drive (in Toronto, and Ontario more specifically). Dalton and Dave have their agendas, and they don't care what it costs you.

[robster77]

My wife and I quit taking the TTC earlier this year. We're now taking the GO and not looking back. It's so much better. At the time, two TTC passes cost $109 and another $80 for parking (implemented in May) added up to $298for us per month. Whereas the GO costs $322 per month. We figured less hassle on the GO was worth the $24. Now it seems the GO is even cheaper by comparison.

[caRpetbomBer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DNPk5C_COI

Yeah they need more money for big screen TVs lol

[Dash]

rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble....

so what's the price of buying 10 tokens going to be?

[Psubs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DNPk5C_COI

Yeah they need more money for big screen TVs lol

Seriously, he's straining his eyes on that little screen. He may need to apply for WSIB compensation. :(

[Agram]

Giambrone does not run TTC! He is just a spokesperson. Its funny how we all jump on the poor collectors but if you onkly knew how many Forpersons are hired and are in place as we speak. In the Shops for every 3 workers there is a Forperson who makes over $90K and his main job is to imput work tickets which have been completed. There are way too many Managers, too many Supervisors and Superintendents. Too much staff, too many stupid useless IT guys who do absolutely squat. Too many Engineers and paper pushers. All the people above all make over $100K and their numbers are growin. You people only concentrate on the front line workers when all the pigs are on the inside.

[MasterXan]

Giambrone does not run TTC! He is just a spokesperson. Its funny how we all jump on the poor collectors but if you onkly knew how many Forpersons are hired and are in place as we speak. In the Shops for every 3 workers there is a Forperson who makes over $90K and his main job is to imput work tickets which have been completed. There are way too many Managers, too many Supervisors and Superintendents. Too much staff, too many stupid useless IT guys who do absolutely squat. Too many Engineers and paper pushers. All the people above all make over $100K and their numbers are growin. You people only concentrate on the front line workers when all the pigs are on the inside.

oh gimme a break. the same ol' "if the upper level guys don't take cuts, we don't too" excuse. I've seen this during the auto bailouts and during the California bailout. Let's be honest here, if the managers, supervisors, superintendants take a cut, would the frontline workers do that too?

lol OF COURSE.....they won't.

[WontonTiger]

Giambrone does not run TTC! He is just a spokesperson. Its funny how we all jump on the poor collectors but if you onkly knew how many Forpersons are hired and are in place as we speak. In the Shops for every 3 workers there is a Forperson who makes over $90K and his main job is to imput work tickets which have been completed. There are way too many Managers, too many Supervisors and Superintendents. Too much staff, too many stupid useless IT guys who do absolutely squat. Too many Engineers and paper pushers. All the people above all make over $100K and their numbers are growin. You people only concentrate on the front line workers when all the pigs are on the inside.

So you agree that we need massive cuts in your workforce (not specifying who will be cut). TTC has so much dead weight. I wish I could find the figure again, but isn't like 4/5 of Toronto's (not TTC specifically) operating costs related to their workforce?

[Qbit]

Or they could trim the wages of some of the collectors/drivers/mechanics/managers/office workers/etc. and then reduce the price of a ride. Bring them all down to market value (or less in some cases). These are gov't jobs, they should pay market rates or possibly less. The reason I say this is because gov't jobs have safety nets that most jobs do not. It is also much harder to contract gov't jobs once they are given (mostly because of unions).

They get too much for something that isn't too difficult, and the rest of us have to pay for it. Does anyone know the "general" cost breakdown for the TTC (i.e. percentage that goes to wages, upkeep, new routes, equipment, etc.)?

If large numbers of drivers are quitting left and right at the current time at their overpaid wages, doesn't that mean they're too low? Market forces and all. Or do those only apply when they support your agenda?

So you agree that we need massive cuts in your workforce (not specifying who will be cut). TTC has so much dead weight. I wish I could find the figure again, but isn't like 4/5 of Toronto's (not TTC specifically) operating costs related to their workforce?

Let me guess, you saw a number that you thought looked sexy then latched on to it to launch into your talking points. All levels of government spend roughly 80% of revenues on paying workers. Guess what? Wages make up the overwhelming majority of operating costs in most private businesses too! Oh no, world view shattered!

[WontonTiger]

If large numbers of drivers are quitting left and right at the current time at their overpaid wages, doesn't that mean they're too low? Market forces and all. Or do those only apply when they support your agenda?



Let me guess, you saw a number that you thought looked sexy then latched on to it to launch into your talking points. All levels of government spend roughly 80% of revenues on paying workers. Guess what? Wages make up the overwhelming majority of operating costs in most private businesses too! Oh no, world view shattered!

You're just making yourself look stupid. I never claimed it was any different for private companies. The big difference is that a company can go out of business, the gov't will not.

If drivers' are actually quitting at a rate faster than applications are coming in, then hell has frozen over. Driver's deserve the most if you ask me (EDIT: Should have included all skilled positions in this comment). They actually require some skill, and deal with more danger.

That still doesn't account for the rest of the workforce. I'm not saying ALL positions are inequitable, however most are over market rates, and most would still find qualified workers at a lower price.

I solidify my opinions based on knowledge, research, and practicality. I can't say the same for you.

How would you make the system work (and don't say more tax dollars, because that isn't a real solution).

[KorruptioN]

Look, bottom line, I hate it just as much as everyone, but the TTC has to be funded somehow. Factoring in the monthly tax credit, it's not so bad.
If anything we have to modernize the system, make everything electronic, and boot the union..at least the fare collectors who are basically overpriced vending machines. I have nothing against the drivers/operators/maintenance.

I feel the same way. The TTC is one of the few transit systems around that don't get huge subsidies from the various levels of government. They've got no choice but to recoup a lot of their operating costs through the fare box. Revamping the whole system (with the suggestions from our resident armchair consultants) is going to cost way more money than even keeping just status quo. We need to pressure the government to provide more assistance to one of their biggest cities. All this downloading is hurting us all.

Depending on how much the metropass increase is, I may just be switching to tokens.

[rems]

This is post is for all the motorists who had to deal with all the transit takers who wanted to see gas prices soar over $2/L.

I hope they increase fares to $10/ride...I dont take the transit. I`ll enjoy my car. :-P

[MasterXan]

This is post is for all the motorists who had to deal with all the transit takers who wanted to see gas prices soar over $2/L.

I hope they increase fares to $10/ride...I dont take the transit. I`ll enjoy my car. :-P

oh don't worry, since it's government-run public transit, they'll make you pay for it in the form of taxes.

you can run but you can't hide

[Agram]

oh gimme a break. the same ol' "if the upper level guys don't take cuts, we don't too" excuse. I've seen this during the auto bailouts and during the California bailout. Let's be honest here, if the managers, supervisors, superintendants take a cut, would the frontline workers do that too?

lol OF COURSE.....they won't.

Im not sure if you are aware of this.......but I am a Forperson! YOu can not cut the workforce down. It is too low as it is, any more cutting is dangerous and the present workers can not handle the extra work load. Like I keep saying some of you have no clue, we pay gas or diesel just like any one else out there. Electricity is not free, wages are a small part of the operating budget.

Do you actually think you can go out and post a job in the papers looking for a subway mechanic or streetcar mechanic for $10/hr? :lol:

Do you think a plumber is going to work for $10/hr or electrician? Lets be serious and think about some of your comments. Wages are part of the costs and there is nothing that is going to change. The fare box pays for roughly 75%+ of the wages, we need better funding for the city which is the nucleous and driving force of the country not measly hand outs which the Governments make in front of cameras and then later on take back.

[Agram]

I dont take the transit. I`ll enjoy my car

So then why are you posting in here lol

[help_questions]

oh gimme a break. the same ol' "if the upper level guys don't take cuts, we don't too" excuse. I've seen this during the auto bailouts and during the California bailout. Let's be honest here, if the managers, supervisors, superintendants take a cut, would the frontline workers do that too?

lol OF COURSE.....they won't.

Im not sure if you are aware of this.......but I am a Forperson! YOu can not cut the workforce down. It is too low as it is, any more cutting is dangerous and the present workers can not handle the extra work load. Like I keep saying some of you have no clue, we pay gas or diesel just like any one else out there. Electricity is not free, wages are a small part of the operating budget.

Do you actually think you can go out and post a job in the papers looking for a subway mechanic or streetcar mechanic for $10/hr? :lol:

Do you think a plumber is going to work for $10/hr or electrician? Lets be serious and think about some of your comments. Wages are part of the costs and there is nothing that is going to change. The fare box pays for roughly 75%+ of the wages, we need better funding for the city which is the nucleous and driving force of the country not measly hand outs which the Governments make in front of cameras and then later on take back.

Agram makes some good points, in that you cannot or should not try to find:
-a subway mechanic or streetcar mechanic for $10/hr
-10/hr or electrician

BUT, you can find someone to drive a collect fares for $10/hour, you can find someone to clean for $10/hour, and you don't need to give this people any benefits, as they work they do is sooo basic.

and maybe you can't find a driver for $10/hour but I am sure you can find one for less. Even a savings of $1-2 dollars will add up....why are they not trying?

My main issue is that the TTC is not trying to cut costs by finding cheaper labour, and passing the cost of supporting the workers on to the riders instead of making an effort to reduce these costs.

cost savings can be made without reducing the workforce, but my finding ways to get tasks done for less.

ttc users need to step up, and demand that the TTC find ways to cut costs WITHOUT reducing service BEFORE thinking about raising fares (especially during a recession)

[corrupt123]

Im not sure if you are aware of this.......but I am a Forperson!

Really? Wow I thought you were just a mechanic of some sort. Out of curiosity, (and you don't have to answer if you don't want to) are you part of the union? And is there really one of you for every 3 mechanic/labour type positions?

And also out of curiosity, how much work do you do in a day? Like in an 8 hour day, how long would you say it takes you to get all of the days work done? A full shift?

I ask because I have/had a few friends who have done internships/co-ops (albeit on the engineering side of things) and they said they did no work. I actually know a guy who quit his internship because he was so bored.

[legendofxix]

Too many fare hikes.
They already lost a lot of ridership from not having free parking lots with metropasses.
That killed off a lot of their revenue.
Now the Finch parking lot hardly fills up completely.
Tons of wasted money. Each spot is an extra 100$ a month that they just f-ed themselves out of.
So they now punish people who WANT to take the transit?
F- those ****ers, I'll go buy a used car now.

[Agram]

I was a yard operator in subways and streetcars, was a subway mechanic in streetcars and subways, heavy overhaul and rail mechanic as well as a line mechanic on subway line.

No I am not in the Union which sometimes is a blessing and a headache at other times [ we in staff have our own BS to deal with......cough cough our bosses lol]

I have a **** load of paper work to do, computers were supposed to make life easier.......but it has made our jobs 10x more behind the desk as opposed to actually working on the floor with the workers. The old trains break down a lot, lack of parts, lack of workers, shortage of mechanics is serious and at a point where no work can get done......and yet some of you want to cut the work force even more down lol

You know my opinon on IT guys.......need them like another hole in my head :lol:

We have some of the most talented workers but for some reason they all get dumped on. Ill give you an example- there was a streetcar which was in an accident, it was slated to be scrapped. A few body guys and a crew of electricians took on the task and completely re- did the whole car. The car is better then when it came out of Thunder Bay......these guys saved the company lots of money and Im not even counting the lost revenue that car is making now.

[Agram]

Hey those parking lots were not the TTC's to begin with, they belong to the city not us. When your insurance goes up and gas goes up do you also expect free parking on streets. You are getting mad at the wrong people here bro.

[zenpher]

A car is looking more appealing each and every day.

[beserk1]

so where can i buy rolls of tokens now?

[Agram]

Any subway station.

[beserk1]

at the booths? why are some people saying only certain stations sell rolls?

[Mr. Robo]

at the booths? why are some people saying only certain stations sell rolls?

You take your chances. I just went to get more and most of them told me they are not selling rolls anymore cause of shortage.

Go to Davisville - TTC headquarters. They probably can sell you some there.

[beserk1]

Shouldn't it be the same buying from machines too? just stand there and keep inserting 20s lol

[Agram]

Well this is what happens when a fare hike is announced, people start hoarding them to save a few $$$$. At the end the politicians will dig deeper and there will not be a fare hike. You guys think you are the only ones thinking of buying rolls in bulk. But then if I was in your shoes I probably would do the same thing. I have a pass and hardly ever use it.

[beserk1]

no hike = no loss
hike = saved money

win win for me lol

[flexwong]

TTC workers get some ridiculous benefits. every year, drivers get like $100 minimum to buy CLOTHING! i used to work at a department store that accepted their vouchers, it was ridiculous. i've seen guys come in with vouchers for $200+ to buy clothing. and it's not even work clothes they're buying, b/c from what i see, TTC employees have a UNIFORM. so why the hell do the employees have clothing benefits? and the thing is, the drivers say themselves: oh man, this is great, i don't have to spend a dime to buy clothing all year.

[Agram]

Drivers wear uniforms, you might of noticed the nice navy blue jackets they wear yuk! Maintenance workers get the vouchers only so please dont get the 2 confused. When I was a mechanic I use to be only able to buy 2 Cohart work pants and 3 t-shirts so I dont see your point. In about 4 months time those pants were falling apart from all the grease and wear n tear on them. TTC should be giving all maintenance workers uniforms also but this is cheaper so that is why the vouchers have been given out. A few years ago we had clothing given to us but the stupid Union which is run by drivers basically gave up that part and now we have the vouchers which the maintenance workers use. Oh and its $165 not $100 nor $200 lol

[Psubs]

Shouldn't it be the same buying from machines too? just stand there and keep inserting 20s lol

Then you get lots of loose tokens. Rolls of 50 are nice and neat.

Well this is what happens when a fare hike is announced, people start hoarding them to save a few $$$$. At the end the politicians will dig deeper and there will not be a fare hike. You guys think you are the only ones thinking of buying rolls in bulk. But then if I was in your shoes I probably would do the same thing. I have a pass and hardly ever use it.

You need a pass? :confused: Don't you ride for free if you wear your TTC jacket?

[originalnutta]

TTC workers get some ridiculous benefits. every year, drivers get like $100 minimum to buy CLOTHING! i used to work at a department store that accepted their vouchers, it was ridiculous. i've seen guys come in with vouchers for $200+ to buy clothing. and it's not even work clothes they're buying, b/c from what i see, TTC employees have a UNIFORM. so why the hell do the employees have clothing benefits? and the thing is, the drivers say themselves: oh man, this is great, i don't have to spend a dime to buy clothing all year.

what store did you work at?

And they get the vouchers to spend on clothing they require for work, ie. thermal wear, socks, gloves, toques, safety shoes. etc etc..


If they spend that money on just regular stuff, that's up to them. But then they won't have the thermal work related stuff they need.

[Mulder and Scully]

TTC workers get some ridiculous benefits. every year, drivers get like $100 minimum to buy CLOTHING! i used to work at a department store that accepted their vouchers, it was ridiculous. i've seen guys come in with vouchers for $200+ to buy clothing. and it's not even work clothes they're buying, b/c from what i see, TTC employees have a UNIFORM. so why the hell do the employees have clothing benefits? and the thing is, the drivers say themselves: oh man, this is great, i don't have to spend a dime to buy clothing all year.

There's a lot of anti-union sentiment from those who have never been in a union. At my old job, my union benefits were similar to the TTC and actually, the disability benefits were better than what TTC workers get (in reference to a poster in this thread complaining about it). The point is, it's not just the TTC union with kickass benefits, though theirs comes up in the media more often.

Union members pay union dues which comes back as union benefits. Some get annual parties and others get clothing benefits. And as another poster said, these are usually for safety, ergonomic and thermal wear, but if the person wants to spend it on something else, then that's their free option. Again, it's part of the union dues that members pay into.

Don't be jealous. Because if you've ever been part of a union, you'll realize that the benefits are pretty sweet. Don't complain about TTC workers, try to join them!

[flexwong]

Drivers wear uniforms, you might of noticed the nice navy blue jackets they wear yuk! Maintenance workers get the vouchers only so please dont get the 2 confused. When I was a mechanic I use to be only able to buy 2 Cohart work pants and 3 t-shirts so I dont see your point. In about 4 months time those pants were falling apart from all the grease and wear n tear on them. TTC should be giving all maintenance workers uniforms also but this is cheaper so that is why the vouchers have been given out. A few years ago we had clothing given to us but the stupid Union which is run by drivers basically gave up that part and now we have the vouchers which the maintenance workers use. Oh and its $165 not $100 nor $200 lol

actually i've received vouchers of over $200. and i have had drivers come up with vouchers to make the purchase. how do i know? b/c i was talking to them during the transaction. they told me that the technicians get even more.

There's a lot of anti-union sentiment from those who have never been in a union. At my old job, my union benefits were similar to the TTC and actually, the disability benefits were better than what TTC workers get (in reference to a poster in this thread complaining about it). The point is, it's not just the TTC union with kickass benefits, though theirs comes up in the media more often.

Union members pay union dues which comes back as union benefits. Some get annual parties and others get clothing benefits. And as another poster said, these are usually for safety, ergonomic and thermal wear, but if the person wants to spend it on something else, then that's their free option. Again, it's part of the union dues that members pay into.

Don't be jealous. Because if you've ever been part of a union, you'll realize that the benefits are pretty sweet. Don't complain about TTC workers, try to join them!

the TTC is publicly funded. that's the problem. if it's a private company and they want to give $1000 each year to each employee to buy clothing, then they can go and knock themselves out.

[Agram]

You need a pass? Don't you ride for free if you wear your TTC jacket?

Its called a work pass whic is similar to the Metropass but the only difference is that my has a picture of me and says Employee on it. I can wear all the clothing I want but I still need my pass to board a bus.

Getting back to the clothing voucher, who ever told you technicians [not sure what those are as there is no such category] was talking out of his arss and was trying to look important or knows nothing. Drivers do not get clothing vouchers I know that for a fact, they wear uniforms and their clothing is tailor made to suit them. Maintenance personel get vouchers and they can spend it as they like, a few years ago there was a list of what you could buy which proved too confusing and stupid. If an employee decides to spend his money on shirts or what ever he wants well that is his right, but on those cold nights when he is working outside he will wish he got those nice warm overalls which are thermal lol. Does it matter that the TTC is funded, they have a duty and obligation to provide their workers protection and proper work wear. You think Hydro workers get their clothing for free,LCBO,Police, you name it ....its all provided. Union dues do not provide clothing for workers its all part of the agreement which the company has to provide for the workers. Also for work shoes they get $125, try pricing a good pair of work boots all good ones are over $175.......I use to go through 2 pair a year

[Repro]

FYI

i've learned there is a protest planned outside of city hall (nathan phillips square) on Mon, Nov 16 from 6pm - 9pm. councillors debate this proposal on the 17th, so the hope is to demonstrate each evening that week. it's important to try and stop these 15%-20% hikes on essential services from becoming the norm (ie property tax, utilities, car insurance) when, as has been pointed out, our incomes do not increase nearly that amount.

and for those who think we should be thankful there was no increase in 2009, and that this increase is a necessary evil....there are many major and efficient transportation systems in cities around the world which have been able to function fantastically without being moneysinks.

I'm not reassured when the TTC does larger increases every time, and still states it will only help them to meet half their shortfall. The problems exist at many levels - union, wages, system efficiency, management, etc. It's not my place to draw up a new business plan, but i'm sick of being backed into a corner by these relentless increases in every facet of life in the GTA!

i encourage people to show up if you feel strongly against this matter

[WontonTiger]

There's a lot of anti-union sentiment from those who have never been in a union. At my old job, my union benefits were similar to the TTC and actually, the disability benefits were better than what TTC workers get (in reference to a poster in this thread complaining about it). The point is, it's not just the TTC union with kickass benefits, though theirs comes up in the media more often.

Union members pay union dues which comes back as union benefits. Some get annual parties and others get clothing benefits. And as another poster said, these are usually for safety, ergonomic and thermal wear, but if the person wants to spend it on something else, then that's their free option. Again, it's part of the union dues that members pay into.

Don't be jealous. Because if you've ever been part of a union, you'll realize that the benefits are pretty sweet. Don't complain about TTC workers, try to join them!

I actually find that the most vehement opponents of unions, are often former members (such as myself). I was younger at the time, however it jaded me to everything that unions are. They are elite clubs for special workers. They fight for themselves, not for others (as they want you to believe). They protect the weakest of the herd, and hold back people who want to do more than the status quo.

Why are people happy with the status quo?

[Psubs]

You need a pass? Don't you ride for free if you wear your TTC jacket?

Its called a work pass whic is similar to the Metropass but the only difference is that my has a picture of me and says Employee on it. I can wear all the clothing I want but I still need my pass to board a bus.

I guess if you don't have your work clothes on the pass is needed. If you have the clothes TTC people just hop on. They usually know each other so really no one from the public cares.

Anyways, if for some strange reason the hike is avoided, I have until December 5th to back out of the Jan-Dec MDP. :)

[Gundam]

so where can i buy rolls of tokens now?

no more rolls of tokens, they retricted to a limit of 10 now. eventually will be limit of 5.

[flexwong]

no more rolls of tokens, they retricted to a limit of 10 now. eventually will be limit of 5.

bought a roll yesterday from stc.

[Zephyr22b]

managed to get a roll at warden stn today :D

[felixdd]

I don't even bother TTC'ing at times. The way I see it, the fare hike actually leads to a loss of revenue through loss of ridership than what would've been gain through the hike.

A round trip downtown currently takes $5.50, and will soon be $6. I'm sure for a lot of people who just needs to make a quick trip downtown, or for those of us whose staff parking pass is just $5 a day, it actually makes more sense to drive than to ride.

Right now, it seems that the only advantage to riding is essentially being chauffeured so that you can do something else during the trip (e.g. read, sleep) rather than doing the driving yourself, at the expense of speed. I would say that unless you live so far away that there's no difference between driving and riding, most people would choose time.

[PrincessD]

That's ridiculous... They increase the fare so often now...

[help_questions]

Does the job of fare collector have to be done by a unionized worker?
Couldn't this job be done with an army of part-time students who get minimum wage and no benefits?

Or is there a technology that can eliminate this job?

It is fair to expect riders and taxpayers to pay more and more and more, why they just pay the fare collectors more and more and more.
I say NO.

To me, it seems that the TTC has not made an effort to look at area where costs can be cut. It seems that taxpayers and riders are expected to continually pay more and more so that the workers get more and more. Well, my opinion is that YES, absolutely YES, some of them should get more and more and more, like the trades people (mechanics and engineers), and the drivers too, but not every job function has to be a unionized job with wage increases and benefits. There are some TTC functions where a wage cut could be justified, but they type of cost cutting strategies are not even being considered.

Other questions to ask (and if anyone can answer, that would be great):
- are the people who clean the TTC facilities and fleet unionized workers?
- how much do they make?
- and no matter how much they make, can this be done cheaper?
- who washes the fleet, and how much do they make?

Taxpayers and riders should be demanding that TTC try to find a way to cut costs without reducing service, BEFORE deciding that a fare hike is needed. We are in a recession and it is only fair that the TTC workers feel it too, not just the people riding the TTC

[MrDisco]

That's ridiculous... They increase the fare so often now...

June 2001-March 2005: $2.25
March 2005 - March 2006: $2.50
March 2006 - Present: $2.75

Seems to me that rates haven't really increased all that much relative to the amount they need just to maintain operations. ~75% of the TTC budget is funded by the fare box.

[Frankie3s]

Honestly, it's time to contract the TTC out. Maybe to Bombardier. How can any government sustain these kinds of rising costs year after year and climbing?

[15-20_God]

June 2001-March 2005: $2.25
March 2005 - March 2006: $2.50
March 2006 - Present: $2.75

Seems to me that rates haven't really increased all that much relative to the amount they need just to maintain operations. ~75% of the TTC budget is funded by the fare box.

nevermind that. i am entitled to be outraged and over-react. it is my right to place blame in the wrong place. whatever decent wage ppl are earning in an honest job, they should be paid less. and ALL ticket collectors make 6 figures......all of them. it is fact. afterall this is rfd, I will spend money on something I don't even want because its a price error or because someome else said it was a good deal. but raising fares $0.25. that is outrageous.

[Agram]

Yes lets give it to Bombardier, this is the same company who took over maintenance of Go and after 2 years screw this and walked away from their contract. Hmmmm I wonder why, could it be that it was a money losing venture lol

Are some of you aware that until 1972 TTC was self sufficient? That means we got all our buses,streetcars and paid for all the expansion through the fare box. It was Bill Davis that danggled the carrot in front of our eyes and offered to give money if we done what they said......end result we are being dictated by politicians whose sole purpose is to win elections,smile in front of camers so they can just more votes next time. We are being forced to buy low floor streetcars......there are no true low floor streetcars any where in the world. All these updates we are trying to do right now at the same time should have been done 20 years ago. But guess what, they had their heads in their arsses and this is what we get.

Dont blame the collector who makes $25/hr for all the problems blame your stupid politicians. Seems some of you just like to bash on people who go to work every day.

[Agram]

Other questions to ask (and if anyone can answer, that would be great):
- are the people who clean the TTC facilities and fleet unionized workers?
- how much do they make?
- and no matter how much they make, can this be done cheaper?
- who washes the fleet, and how much do they make?

are the people who clean the TTC facilities and fleet unionized workers?- yes

how much do they make?- $23.63 they move vehicles also in yards and take new vehicles on change offs when a revenue vehicle breaks down

and no matter how much they make, can this be done cheaper?

no it can't, these workers are trained as drivers and can move around propery when other jobs become vacant. Its also a liability issue, you just cant have people coming off the street to just clean....so what happens when that vehicle needs to be moved....now we have to hire new workers just to move them lol

same people wash the fleet,break apart trains,re-configure them and move them inside for mechanics. They also move them out when they are fixed, then they make up new trains and check them for service. After the trains have been checked they sign off on them which states they are in 100% working order. The interesting part is the sign off sheet makes them liable, so if any thing is wrong and that train,streetcar,bus etc gets into an accident they are criminally liable.

[MasterXan]

what i want to know is if there are regulations that prohibit anyone else from providing public transportation service and compete with the government?

[go leafs]

what i want to know is if there are regulations that prohibit anyone else from providing public transportation service and compete with the government?

City of Toronto Act PART XVII

Exclusive authority of TTC
395. (1) No person other than the TTC shall establish, operate or maintain a local passenger transportation system within the City until the TTC is dissolved or the control and management over the local passenger transportation system is removed from the TTC. 2006, c. 11, Sched. A, s. 395 (1).

Offence
(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) is guilty of an offence. 2006, c. 11, Sched. A, s. 395 (2).
Exceptions

(3) Subsection (1) does not apply in respect of,
(a) rickshaws;
(b) pedicabs;
(c) railway companies incorporated under federal or provincial statutes;
(d) taxicabs;
(e) vehicles used for providing sightseeing tours;
(f) vehicles exclusively chartered to transport a group of persons for a specified trip within the City, for a group fee;
(g) buses owned and operated by or operated under a contract with a school board or private school;
(h) buses owned and operated by a corporation or organization solely for its own purposes, without charging a fee for transportation;
(i) ferries to the Toronto Islands;
(j) public buses on the Toronto Islands;
(k) passenger transportation services operated by the Toronto Area Transit Operating Authority. 2006, c. 11, Sched. A, s. 395 (3).

Agreements

(4) Despite subsection (1), if a person legally operated a local public passenger transportation service wholly inside or partly inside and partly outside the City on January 1, 1954, the TTC may enter into an agreement with the person authorizing the person to continue to operate all or part of the service for the period and on the conditions specified in the agreement. 2006, c. 11, Sched. A, s. 395 (4)

[just_For_ipod]

City of Toronto Act PART XVII

Exclusive authority of TTC
395. (1) No person other than the TTC shall establish, operate or maintain a local passenger transportation system within the City until the TTC is dissolved or the control and management over the local passenger transportation system is removed from the TTC. 2006, c. 11, Sched. A, s. 395 (1).

Offence
(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) is guilty of an offence. 2006, c. 11, Sched. A, s. 395 (2).
Exceptions

(3) Subsection (1) does not apply in respect of,
(a) rickshaws;
(b) pedicabs;
(c) railway companies incorporated under federal or provincial statutes;
(d) taxicabs;
(e) vehicles used for providing sightseeing tours;
(f) vehicles exclusively chartered to transport a group of persons for a specified trip within the City, for a group fee;
(g) buses owned and operated by or operated under a contract with a school board or private school;
(h) buses owned and operated by a corporation or organization solely for its own purposes, without charging a fee for transportation;
(i) ferries to the Toronto Islands;
(j) public buses on the Toronto Islands;
(k) passenger transportation services operated by the Toronto Area Transit Operating Authority. 2006, c. 11, Sched. A, s. 395 (3).

Agreements

(4) Despite subsection (1), if a person legally operated a local public passenger transportation service wholly inside or partly inside and partly outside the City on January 1, 1954, the TTC may enter into an agreement with the person authorizing the person to continue to operate all or part of the service for the period and on the conditions specified in the agreement. 2006, c. 11, Sched. A, s. 395 (4)

I see three loop holes
(f) vehicles exclusively chartered to transport a group of persons for a specified trip within the City, for a group fee;
A group of persons getting on at X location from say Missassauga, for a specified trip to Union Station.

(h) buses owned and operated by a corporation or organization solely for its own purposes, without charging a fee for transportation;
An organization that requires membership which is free, but requires a mandatory donation, and the transportation is free from x to y.

(4) Despite subsection (1), if a person legally operated a local public passenger transportation service wholly inside or partly inside and partly outside the City on January 1, 1954, the TTC may enter into an agreement with the person authorizing the person to continue to operate all or part of the service for the period and on the conditions specified in the agreement. 2006, c. 11, Sched. A, s. 395 (4)
Operate a local public transit, and hope the TTC doesn't sue and instead they enter into an agreement with you of some sort.

Any entrepreneurs on RFD? :lol:

[Shimso]

what i want to know is if there are regulations that prohibit anyone else from providing public transportation service and compete with the government?

Let's imagine that other transit services are allowed to co-exist. What they're going to do is compete with the TTC for fares on the profitable routes and if they're aggressive enough they'll take away substantial revenue from the TTC, leaving it with even less money to support its infrastructure as well as its support of smaller, less popular routes that a privatized transit organization would not bother with.



With that said, I think it'd be pretty sweet if some of the overly crowded routes we're allowed to have others service the routes if the TTC is unable to provide an acceptable level of service.

[Qbit]

There would be no local transit service outside of downtown Toronto if you privatized it without increasing fares substantially (I'm talking double or more). The TTC was created precisely because the private operators in Toronto refused to expand service to the areas outside of the old city limits (costs too much money).

Please do tell me what the point of contracting out would be when government will be paying out subsidies anyway?

[dragon_drift]

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/ttc/article/722543--token-sales-to-be-limited

=(

[corrupt123]

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/ttc/article/722543--token-sales-to-be-limited

=(

I love it. Everyone is screaming and yelling about what amounts to maybe $100 a year, but they're all perfectly willing (and capable!) of spending several hundred on a moments notice so they can stock up on tokens.

We need a war or something so these people have something legitimate to ***** about.

[KorruptioN]

I love it. Everyone is screaming and yelling about what amounts to maybe $100 a year, but they're all perfectly willing (and capable!) of spending several hundred on a moments notice so they can stock up on tokens.

We need a war or something so these people have something legitimate to ***** about.

ding ding ding ding ding!

[Agram]

Commissioners will decide Nov. 17 whether to raise the token price from $2.25 to $2.50 starting Jan. 3

Lord help us all when we have to rely on these Commissioners to decide our fate!

THe City and these Commissioners have to be kicked out of the TTC business.

[MrDisco]

How is this not a violation of The Competition Act under abuse of dominant position.


Because no doubt that act has exclusions and something as obvious as publicly funded transportation would not apply.

[CSAgent]

I love it. Everyone is screaming and yelling about what amounts to maybe $100 a year, but they're all perfectly willing (and capable!) of spending several hundred on a moments notice so they can stock up on tokens.

We need a war or something so these people have something legitimate to ***** about.

We do, sorta. In Afghanistan until 2011.

[ItechJester]

I love it. Everyone is screaming and yelling about what amounts to maybe $100 a year, but they're all perfectly willing (and capable!) of spending several hundred on a moments notice so they can stock up on tokens.


its probably more of a principal, than any real savings to be honest. ppl simply don't want to pay more for a crappy service.

[corrupt123]

its probably more of a principal, than any real savings to be honest. ppl simply don't want to pay more for a crappy service.

Right, and for a lot of reasons I would agree and feel the same way. But how many of these people pay for crappy service at restaurants? For their cellphone? For cable/internet/etc/etc/etc?

If you really hate crappy service, buy a ****ing car. Then see what it's like to have a big monthly expense, deal with mechanical reliability, unpredictability of Toronto traffic, and more crappy service from licensing, insuring, warranty, etc etc etc agencies.

I don't want to pay more for the TTC either. But I'd rather have our ******** liquor laws changed, or the wireless market unhinged from the 2-3 corporation monopoly it's currently controlled by, or one of another dozen things that are actually getting progressively worse and progressively more expensive. For all the bitching that is done about the TTC, I challenge anyone to show any statistical proof that travel times have increased, delays become more frequent, etc while costs have increased substantially (and if you go back a page or two, you'll see that costs have actually been very reasonable).

[Mr. Robo]

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/ttc/article/722543--token-sales-to-be-limited

=(

saves me the trip to Davisville.

[bolmsted]

I got my two rolls just in time (last week) I guess. I usually use the VIP MetroPass but for vacation months I token it. I wonder what the VIP pass will cost.

[Shaf]

I got my two rolls just in time (last week) I guess. I usually use the VIP MetroPass but for vacation months I token it. I wonder what the VIP pass will cost.

Crap... I wanted to buy a few rolls....

[MrDisco]

for those looking to stock up, be aware the new limits are 5 tokens per visit at the ttc collector's booths.

[legendofxix]

Gonna bring 200-300$ in 20's to those token vending machines next week.

[KorruptioN]

I love it. Everyone is screaming and yelling about what amounts to maybe $100 a year, but they're all perfectly willing (and capable!) of spending several hundred on a moments notice so they can stock up on tokens.

Gonna bring 200-300$ in 20's to those token vending machines next week.

Quoting for emphasis...

[DaVibe]

Shoppers Drug Mart hasn't been informed of a limit ...
Just keep that in mind.

[legendofxix]

Quoting for emphasis...
I care a little bit about fares goign up.
What I really find annoys me is the 5 token limit for purchasing.
I don't particularly like to line up at the collectors, especially during rush hour or with huge line ups, trying to get tokens.
I mean if they made it 10/visit I'd be ok with it. I lived with that since it gave me enough tokens for the week.
But 5 tokens..wtf? Either you go every 2 days (so you always have enough tokens for a return trip) or you buy them on the way to work, which usually means huge lines.
I'd stock up not for the savings, but for the convienence.
And if I'm going to use those automated machines anyways, I might as well get enough so I don't have to deal with a line up.

Honestly....5 f-ing tokens, what a joke.

[mcg]

Lol sooner or later it's going to be cheaper for me to just drive straight down to campus.

Heck I think I might as well start doing it!

[AcidBomber]

wtf? they put a limit of 5 tokens per purchase now?
that's so lame... people usually buy them in 10's anyways. :evil:

3200th...

[appleb]

Shoppers Drug Mart hasn't been informed of a limit ...
Just keep that in mind.

But does SDM sell tokens or tickets?

[tomtomtom]

wtf? they put a limit of 5 tokens per purchase now?
that's so lame... people usually buy them in 10's anyways. :evil:

3200th...

Congrats on the milestone. Prior to the last fare hike, they have limited the machine to take $10 bill, (no $20 bill). I went to RBC at yonge/bloor, asked the teller to change $600 (in 20s) to all 10s. :lol:

It took me a good 20 mins to change them to tokens from the machine.

[WontonTiger]

Congrats on the milestone. Prior to the last fare hike, they have limited the machine to take $10 bill, (no $20 bill). I went to RBC at yonge/bloor, asked the teller to change $600 (in 20s) to all 10s. :lol:

It took me a good 20 mins to change them to tokens from the machine.

Now listen, we all know that the TTC only cares about it's riders. It's a premium service, offered to their most cherished people, their riders. It only makes sense that they force their riders to go to the booth more often, as that is what you do when you care.

The TTC is a champion of the people. They're not self-interested in the least, and only care for the riders.

[Winkle]

Now listen, we all know that the TTC only cares about it's riders. It's a premium service, offered to their most cherished people, their riders. It only makes sense that they force their riders to go to the booth more often, as that is what you do when you care.

The TTC is a champion of the people. They're not self-interested in the least, and only care for the riders.

I see what you did there.

[ShadowVlican]

Congrats on the milestone. Prior to the last fare hike, they have limited the machine to take $10 bill, (no $20 bill). I went to RBC at yonge/bloor, asked the teller to change $600 (in 20s) to all 10s. :lol:

It took me a good 20 mins to change them to tokens from the machine.
talk about "the smarter way" :lol: