Cell Phone users who forego Voice Mail / Call Display

[lorax1284]

This is just a rough poll of how many people have cell phones and DON'T have Voice Mail and / or Caller ID.

I just figure that these services come at very low cost to the vendor, but cost users up to $15 on plans that don't include them (i.e. pretty much everything non-prepaid).

It occurs to me that MOST people will have VM/CID on their cell phones. I just thought I'd do a poll to find out :-)

(This is another in my never-ending quest to make people understand how they are manipulated by marketing messaging / fine print: perhaps you haven't thought about why something that is low cost to the vendor, used by EVERYONE, and high surcharge is a "rip off". If a huge majority have CID/VM in their plans, WHY is it not INCLUDED? Because it's a cash grab, as if you didn't know already)

Edit: rems got me thinking that I should post my plan details w.r.t. VM/CID: I shop around aggressively and refuse to pay these outrageous fees... so only Prepaid plans from "virtual" carriers are acceptable to me. I demand these two features, and use them, so I'm currently on SpeakOut, where VM/CID is included. Was on Virgin Mobile, but switched to SpeakOut because I don't use too many minutes every month.

[rems]

i have both but definitely don`t pay $15 for them...Id have to check my bill but I think I pay about $2.50-$5 for them...

Edit: I checked my bill...it`s part of my $25 plan so it says $0 for both of those items. I pay $2.50 for unlimited evenings and weekends...(less with the 20% discount)

[board123]

I disabled voicemail and never had caller ID.

[avillegas]

I have both as I have one of those grandfathered Telus bundles (Bundle 15) that included both CID and VM along with text messages and WAP access.

For me both services are definitely wanted, with VM in my case being vital as in my line of business I need to have my phone off.

[Badman]

don`t have voicemail. Even when did did have it(part of a valuepack) I hated it.

I do have caller ID and that's a must for me. Cant live without it. Though currently i`m paying $0 as i`m getting it credited.

[RCGA]

I'm currently on pay-as-you-go with PC and have both for free.

Every voicemail I get is just the person hanging up or saying "call me back" (in which case I have their number anyway via caller ID, so I could live without it no problem.

If it was my main phone though, voicemail wouldn't hurt. I'd even probably pay for it (like $2 max).

Caller ID is a MUST have. I don't know how anyone could do without it...then again, I screen every call I get soo...

[RiCHC3]

I don't have either right now, but I figure I'll get it once I call retentions (still a relatively new subscriber). So just waiting a tad and I'll go for it.

[bcti]

anyone think of using who called instead of cid... it is cheaper. Also I was thinking that combining primus talk broadband with telus' 7$ unlimited calls from one number could possibly work out to be unlimited calls to/from everyone. With primus you can have it ring your phone with your primus number but it will say "you have an incoming call from xxx xxx xxx" so you can see who is calling even though it shows your primus number. You could set primus to auto forward all calls from your cell to there calling out number "remote phone" i think it is called so you could make unlimited outgoing calls. Let me know if you think it would work.

[SAN66]

I have a friend who works on voicemail systems for one of the big 3. Tells me it costs about 1-2 bucks to setup voicemail and next to nothing in bandwidth and storage a month. The profit is like 15000-20000%. Ridiculous eh? Worse than the markup for text messages.

I'm currently getting called id and voicemail for free as part of my retentions deal, but would not pay the ridiculous straight up costs otherwise.

[lorax1284]

I have a friend who works on voicemail systems for one of the big 3. Tells me it costs about 1-2 bucks to setup voicemail and next to nothing in bandwidth and storage a month. The profit is like 15000-20000%. Ridiculous eh? Worse than the markup for text messages.

Now that is enlightening.

While I'd agree that 15000% markup is almost criminal, my understanding is that text messages piggypack on status messages that the cell network uses to keep track of which cell your phone is on etc... the two-way "pings" have space enough to carry the short messages... so that's like ∞% markup!

[greenmoon]

Now that is enlightening.

While I'd agree that 15000% markup is almost criminal, my understanding is that text messages piggypack on status messages that the cell network uses to keep track of which cell your phone is on etc... the two-way "pings" have space enough to carry the short messages... so that's like ∞% markup!

Well... If you think about it, they do have to pay someone to make sure they can track which pings have messages and which do not. It may not cost a lot, but consider this: all these companies are public, and if you were so inclined, you could look up how much exactly they make and how much they spend. You'll see that the overall margins are not that insane.

Sure, the marginal costs of sending one more text message, providing one more minute of talk time, passing one more kilobyte of data - all are next to nothing, but the fixed costs are very high. It cost Bell and Telus 1 billion to build the new network, for example. How long do you think it will take them to break even?

[lorax1284]

You'll see that the overall margins are not that insane.

I'd subtract executive compensation figures before I'd accept that statement.

Bell Canada Profits Up - Raises Outlook for Full Year

Bell Canada (BCE) has reported a slight rise in its second-quarter revenues by 1.5% to C$3.63 billion (US$3.4 billion), with net profits up by 4.2% to C$346 million (US4322 million). The company also raised its outlook for the full year. The operating income decreased to C$825 million this quarter, or by 6.9%, due to lower operating income at Bell and Bell Aliant. BCE's EBITDA increased 2.8% to C$1,792 million this quarter due to EBITDA growth at Bell and Bell Aliant.

<snip>

Postpaid ARPU decreased by C$3.61 to C$62.58 due to lower usage, lower roaming revenues, and the migration to lower rate plans as customers reacted to a weaker economy, partly offset by growth in wireless data revenues. Prepaid ARPU decreased by C$1.07 to C$16.41 due to the elimination of the system access fee for prepaid customers and lower usage, partly offset by growth in wireless data revenues. Blended ARPU decreased by C$2.22 to C$52.05.


That's $62 Average Revenue Per User PER MONTH! That's far higher than Vodaphone UK where their ARPU is only 22 pounds. And given there are more vendors in the UK, and that Canadian companies only cover the populated areas (the vast hinterlands are NOT blanketed with cell towers) I think Bell can afford to lower that ARPU a bit.

Sure, the marginal costs of sending one more text message, providing one more minute of talk time, passing one more kilobyte of data - all are next to nothing, but the fixed costs are very high. It cost Bell and Telus 1 billion to build the new network, for example. How long do you think it will take them to break even?

To quote Eunice (Carol Burnett's "Mama's Family" character) "Oh, set it to music, mama!" :-) All that profit they made was during a RECESSION, and on the back of this so-called infrastructure investment boo hoo hoo. They are uncomfortably profitable and operate their business in a disreputable way. They add on fees that make no sense, and yet they can afford to be profitable offering plans that are half of what many users pay. They are beholden to their shareholders first and foremost, and I am not a shareholder, so I could not care less.

It is my position that they are corrupt companies that mislead their customers willfully and change fees arbitrarily, and misrepresent facts to the public and to the federal agencies charged with maintaining a fair and accessible infrastructure for the Canadian people.

Many would say "Yeah... so?" but that doesn't mean they're not evil.

[Jay Hova]

Neither, just not worth it...callerID is, although how many decades did society live without it?

[psyko514]

That so-called "cash grab" helps to offset the cost of other services and the phones themselves.

How much money do you think a cell phone company makes from a user who takes a free phone on a 3 year contract with a basic plan and no extra features. Probably not much. Throw in a few calls to customer service during that period and the company could even end up losing money on a customer.

[Lulz]

That so-called "cash grab" helps to offset the cost of other services and the phones themselves.

How much money do you think a cell phone company makes from a user who takes a free phone on a 3 year contract with a basic plan and no extra features. Probably not much. Throw in a few calls to customer service during that period and the company could even end up losing money on a customer.

lol
free phone? okay...every $0 phone is a basic phone that can be bought for $150 max on eBay (keep in mind, provider gets it from manufacturers directly for cheaper)

that $150 will be paid back in a matter of months, considering they charge $35 activation fee so a $0 phone is really $35.

a basic plan with no features? that's $20 (cheapest plan possible) + $6.95 + $0.50 = $27.45 without tax



I feel absolutely no remorse for any Canadian telcos.
Rogers sells a SIM card for $45!!!!!!
$45 with zero balance.
In Europe you can pick up a SIM card for 2 euros, and there's already 2 euros balance on it making it free.

[Jay Hova]

That so-called "cash grab" helps to offset the cost of other services and the phones themselves.

How much money do you think a cell phone company makes from a user who takes a free phone on a 3 year contract with a basic plan and no extra features. Probably not much. Throw in a few calls to customer service during that period and the company could even end up losing money on a customer.

http://www.rogers.com/cms/investor_relations/pdfs/FactSheet_f.pdf

Rogers Wireless brought in $1,544,000 in revenue Q1 '09...$710,000,000 in profit..sure there's taxes...but we're talking about $700-million in profit in a single quarter!!!

[Zero1]

I have both and voicemail does help me from time to time. I can live without VM but CiD IS A MUST. I need to know who is calling me.

[psyko514]

lol
free phone? okay...every $0 phone is a basic phone that can be bought for $150 max on eBay (keep in mind, provider gets it from manufacturers directly for cheaper)

that $150 will be paid back in a matter of months, considering they charge $35 activation fee so a $0 phone is really $35.

a basic plan with no features? that's $20 (cheapest plan possible) + $6.95 + $0.50 = $27.45 without tax



I feel absolutely no remorse for any Canadian telcos.
Rogers sells a SIM card for $45!!!!!!
$45 with zero balance.
In Europe you can pick up a SIM card for 2 euros, and there's already 2 euros balance on it making it free.

Basic phones? Check this out: http://www.telusmobility.com/en/QC/phones/index.shtml

Six Smartphones for < $30. Twelve regular phones for < $30. A lot of those phones are not basic, either. Many are also brand new. And that's just one of the telcos.

If you can find a new Nokia E71 or a BB Curve for < $150 on eBay, let me know and I'll buy it.

That $27 isn't profit, it's revenue. I'm not saying anyone should feel bad for telcos. People need to remember that they are simply a business and the primary goal of any business is to make money. People are acting as if a new BlackBerry with a load of bandwidth is a necessity instead of a luxury.

http://www.rogers.com/cms/investor_relations/pdfs/FactSheet_f.pdf

Rogers Wireless brought in $1,544,000 in revenue Q1 '09...$710,000,000 in profit..sure there's taxes...but we're talking about $700-million in profit in a single quarter!!!

OMG! A profitable company! They've obviously got their whole business model all wrong. Somebody better shut them down because clearly they're raping consumers by charging relatively high prices for services they could easily survive without!

[ShadowVlican]

I have both and voicemail does help me from time to time. I can live without VM but CiD IS A MUST. I need to know who is calling me.
+1000

how do people live without caller id/number??

like to loose minutes to useless calls much?

[omniiv]

i have both but would never pay full price for these services.

[greenmoon]

...

Originally Posted by http://www.cellular-news.com/story/38989.php
Bell Canada Profits Up - Raises Outlook for Full Year

Bell Canada (BCE) has reported a slight rise in its second-quarter revenues by 1.5% to C$3.63 billion (US$3.4 billion), with net profits up by 4.2% to C$346 million (US4322 million). The company also raised its outlook for the full year. The operating income decreased to C$825 million this quarter, or by 6.9%, due to lower operating income at Bell and Bell Aliant. BCE's EBITDA increased 2.8% to C$1,792 million this quarter due to EBITDA growth at Bell and Bell Aliant.

<snip>

Postpaid ARPU decreased by C$3.61 to C$62.58 due to lower usage, lower roaming revenues, and the migration to lower rate plans as customers reacted to a weaker economy, partly offset by growth in wireless data revenues. Prepaid ARPU decreased by C$1.07 to C$16.41 due to the elimination of the system access fee for prepaid customers and lower usage, partly offset by growth in wireless data revenues. Blended ARPU decreased by C$2.22 to C$52.05.


That's $62 Average Revenue Per User PER MONTH! That's far higher than Vodaphone UK where their ARPU is only 22 pounds. And given there are more vendors in the UK, and that Canadian companies only cover the populated areas (the vast hinterlands are NOT blanketed with cell towers) I think Bell can afford to lower that ARPU a bit.
...

That $62 by itself is meaningless. Revenue is revenue, and is not profit.

So their profits increased by 4.2%. So what? Did you actually calculate their overall profit margin? Using your own figures, profit of C$346 million divided by revenue of C$3630 million is still only a meager 9.5%! In other words, out of those $62.58 of revenue per user, they only keep about $5.96. Hell, my own business has a higher profit margin, though I do not deal with billions.

9.5 bleeping percent. Thanks for looking up the numbers, I actually expected it to be higher than that.

[ildara]

I do not have Voice Mail, but do have Caller ID

I picked ^^.

I have Rogers Pay As You Go (https://www.rogers.com/web/content/wireless-products/plans). My plan includes caller ID. There is no monthly fee for voice mail (it is pay per use), but I never activated my mailbox because it costs me airtime whenever anyone leaves me a message. :evil:

[tomtomtom]

That $62 by itself is meaningless. Revenue is revenue, and is not profit.

So their profits increased by 4.2%. So what? Did you actually calculate their overall profit margin? Using your own figures, profit of C$346 million divided by revenue of C$3630 million is still only a meager 9.5%! In other words, out of those $62.58 of revenue per user, they only keep about $5.96. Hell, my own business has a higher profit margin, though I do not deal with billions.

9.5 bleeping percent. Thanks for looking up the numbers, I actually expected it to be higher than that.

9.5% in a public industry is huge. If you look at Rogers comm EPS, they make 1.65 in 2008 while vodafone plc is 0.96. This is staggering huge, and every carrier outside Canada is looking at Rogers with envy

[darkprince]

I have both but it sucks that no-one uses my VM. All i hear when i check my VM is *CLICK*.

Sigh*

[Bskll]

Basic phones? Check this out: http://www.telusmobility.com/en/QC/phones/index.shtml

Six Smartphones for < $30. Twelve regular phones for < $30. A lot of those phones are not basic, either. Many are also brand new. And that's just one of the telcos.

If you can find a new Nokia E71 or a BB Curve for < $150 on eBay, let me know and I'll buy it.

That $27 isn't profit, it's revenue. I'm not saying anyone should feel bad for telcos. People need to remember that they are simply a business and the primary goal of any business is to make money. People are acting as if a new BlackBerry with a load of bandwidth is a necessity instead of a luxury.



OMG! A profitable company! They've obviously got their whole business model all wrong. Somebody better shut them down because clearly they're raping consumers by charging relatively high prices for services they could easily survive without!

i have no problem with a profitable company if they didn't have all these government regulations helping them along.

[Bskll]

9.5% in a public industry is huge. If you look at Rogers comm EPS, they make 1.65 in 2008 while vodafone plc is 0.96. This is staggering huge, and every carrier outside Canada is looking at Rogers with envy

and remember, rogers is making all these money with less than 10 million subscribers.

[Hairball]

I have both, they're both free with Rogers Pay As You Go. Though the voicemail can get expensive as you're charged whenever someone leaves you a message.

I think it's absolutely vital to have voicemail for job searching though. So it's worth the money for the occasional message I get.

[nick227]

I have neither, and sure it's a bit of a pain having no caller ID after being used to it, but it's not worth to $7 a month from Rogers. As for voicemail, I tell people to call my GV number and leave a message if it's urgent, or text me.

[lorax1284]

9.5 bleeping percent. Thanks for looking up the numbers, I actually expected it to be higher than that.

...expected... or hoped? Sorry, but I immediately assume that people who defend Canadian telcos have an interest in consumers thinking they're NOT being overcharged. As a consumer, I have an interest in making sure other consumers understand the value of what they're getting so, collectively, these companies are accountable to us and set reasonable prices. Now that the new Belus network is 'done', I expect their profits to skyrocket... but it won't be my money funding their executive bonuses, that's for sure.

[greenmoon]

...expected... or hoped? Sorry, but I immediately assume that people who defend Canadian telcos have an interest in consumers thinking they're NOT being overcharged. As a consumer, I have an interest in making sure other consumers understand the value of what they're getting so, collectively, these companies are accountable to us and set reasonable prices. Now that the new Belus network is 'done', I expect their profits to skyrocket... but it won't be my money funding their executive bonuses, that's for sure.

Well, that's an interesting thought actually. The only stake I have in Bell is as their customer, and as such, I really hope that their business is good so that the service I buy from them gets better and not worse. I don't work for Bell, I'm not a shareholder.

But I am a very selfish customer and really hope that others pay enough to Bell so that when I call them and ask for discounts or free features, they can afford to give it to me. The same way I hope that the banks get enough of profit from others paying credit card interest that they can afford to give me better rewards.

If everyone paid $1 for call display, what fun would it be for me to say that I get it for free? :)