To Court or Not To Court...

[X20A]

Hi RFDers,

I have a small dilemma. A month ago, I bought a used 2002 Acura with a 6-speed manual transmission from a used car dealership. It has about 267000 km on it.

A week into buying the car, I let two of my friends drive it, there were no problems, they drove well, and there was no weird smells, the car accelerated well, and drove like a dream pretty much. One of my friends even complimented the car saying that the transmission was very smooth, and he had already been driving manual for about 7-8 years.

About 2 weeks ago, I let a friend drive the car after they asked several times throughout the evening. We started the drive from Kennedy and Highway 7, went up to Major MacKenzie, east to McCowan, and back down to McCowan and Highway 7.

Halfway through the ride, the car just reeked of burnt clutch smell. It would seem that perhaps the clutch was being ridden while the car was being taken to high revs.

So now the car has a very slippery clutch, and opening the throttle causes a seemingly neutral gear revving situation where the car accelerates super slow.

My friend then offered at first to fix the car. But after I had visited an independent mechanic and stated the prices, the friend started making excuses to back out.

Since it seemed like the friend burned the clutch, I suggested they only pay for the friction disk and the labour which would have come out to about 800 dollars. But usually as with clutches, it is recommended to replace the pressure plate and release bearing as part of the clutch assembly kit, which I had said I would pay for.

The friend then says they asked an Acura mechanic about the situation and that the mechanic replied that car is too old, and that the car already had problems, and hence the fault did not lie with the friend. (Which is ludicrous because, how can you say that, without actually seeing car.)

I then went to an Acura dealership and spoke to both a service advisor and a technician, and both informed me that it was possible to ruin a clutch in 20 minutes if they were shifting improperly and was riding the clutch along with hard revving, which was the case.

Right now, I'm still open for negotiation if the friend does so wish to resolve this. However, I am thinking I need to take this to small claims court. When I brought this point up to the friend, the friend welcomed me to take them to court. Would I be able to make a case out of this?

Thanks RFD!

[Tharyn]

Some things I would take into consideration:

1. You have no idea of knowing the condition of the clutch prior to purchase. The car is 7 years old and seen a lot of km in those years, ~40k per year.

Consequently, you have no idea of the driving habits / styles of the previous owner(s). For all intents and purposes the clutch could have been extremely worn and that it was only a matter of time till it started to slip.

2. As a new owner of the car your own habits (are you learning, or experienced with std cars?) would also impact clutch wear.

3. Is the friendship worth it? Things definitely won't be the same post-small claims court / or worst case you may lose a friend.

Personally, given the age and km on the car I would say its hard to definitively prove your friend caused the clutch to wear out.

I would just chalk it up to the costs of car ownership, especially with a standard car that old.

[yao416]

You're an assh0le if you take him to court, straight up.

[najibs]

Fact: You cannot prove your friend burned the clutch in that short drive. If the car was brand new, sure, but a car that has almost 300k on it, and just because another friend before commented that the gearbox was smooth, that means absolutely nothing...

The only thing you have going in your favour is that your friend at first offered to fix it, which might indicate guilt, but again it proves nothing.

I don't think you have a case here...

[Lava]

Is there any record of when the clutch was replaced last? Depending on when it was last replaced will make all the difference in court if that's where you end up. Have you checked the clutch fluid?

Also how experienced are you driving manual? And how experienced is your friend? Does he own a manual?

[nano]

It's a used car just take it to be fixed...

[carmaster]

Why did you let a friend drive your car? The car has crazy km's on it.

[samm]

Holy crap, I thought my 2003 Honda has a lot of kms! The car must of been dirt cheap considering the mileage. So just use your own money to fix it and never let a friend drive it.

[originalnutta]

You let your friend drive.

You lose.

[Bazooka Joe]

It takes a LOT more than a single drive to burn out a clutch. The thing was on its last legs and just happened to go while he was driving. I punish my clutch every time I take my subie into sand/mud and I'm at 140k on the original. I don't think I could ruin one in 20 minutes if I tried my hardest. MAYBE if you floored it and let it out REAL slow... but if you were in the car you would have stopped it, plus it'd take forever at every stoplight/stop sign.

When one lets go, it makes a stink.

[eightyeight]

There was a similar thread a while back with pretty much the same responses.

There's no way you can prove your friend broke a good condition clutch in 20 minutes. Next time when you have a friend who's ruining your clutch as you sit in the passenger seat, make him pullover immediately and switch seats.

[phomp]

How could you let your friend continue driving for 20 minutes if he was driving so bad. It is quite obvious when someone does not know how to drive manual. Why did you not stop him from driving.

You are pretty much on the hook for your repairs of your car and not much you can do. You are wasting your time/money going to small claims. And probably a lost friendship now.

Tough lesson learned, but do not let friends drive your car... especially if they do not know how to drive.

[fakishan]

When I share something of mine with a friend, I only do so if I can afford to lose it. In the same way I don't ask to drive my friends' or even my brother's new car.

[phomp]

It takes a LOT more than a single drive to burn out a clutch. The thing was on its last legs and just happened to go while he was driving. I punish my clutch every time I take my subie into sand/mud and I'm at 140k on the original. I don't think I could ruin one in 20 minutes if I tried my hardest. MAYBE if you floored it and let it out REAL slow... but if you were in the car you would have stopped it, plus it'd take forever at every stoplight/stop sign.

When one lets go, it makes a stink. I saw a CTS with 40k on it and fresh out the caddy dealer (it was a trade-in and was just serviced) get a clutch destroyed in the first few drives by the new owner.. lol Though this is an exception, not an regular occurance. It was in the winter, and he got stuck in snow and did not know what to do and destroyed a perfectly good clutch in less than 10 minutes.. haha.

[stealth]

267k kms....that car is skating on july ice. I'm surprised a dealer would keep something with that much mileage in stock.

[CSR]

Wasn't there a thread about this a few weeks ago?!

Edit: nvm, different city. But same issue.
http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/he-test-drove-my-car-broke-793668/

[metrojet]

3 Things to never lend to friends:

1. Clothes
2. Girl(s)
3. Car(s)

Hehehe....

[Johan Liebert]

I just have to say the OP, wow you got bad luck. Never buy used car especially with "267000 km on it".

[carmaster]

267k kms....that car is skating on july ice. I'm surprised a dealer would keep something with that much mileage in stock.

I'm suprised that someone from RFD would buy this.

[afzan]

2002 with a 6spd? rsx type s?

anyways, with 267k on the original clutch, it was time to replace the clutch

[ygtgxi]

you can't prove he burn your clutch out, can you? if you cannot afford to lose it, why lend it? agree on a mutual price and come to an agreement

[goJays]

the clutch probably needed to be replaced (hopefully not much more) in the near future neways (thats why it was sold). the blame is on you not selecting a 'good' used car buy.

maybe u can have ur friend pay for a portion of the bill, rather than full or half.

[phomp]

you can't prove he burn your clutch out, can you? if you cannot afford to lose it, why lend it? agree on a mutual price and come to an agreement

lol good luck, the friend probably will not want to pay anything.

I remember one time I ended up drinking at a hotel party and a buddy of mine said he could drive my car home because he had to be home and I could not drive (I did not really want to give the keys up though I know he can drive manual as he owned the same model of car). Long story short he hit a curb and destroyed a steel rim off a curb on the highway (snow storm) damaged the rotor he hit so hard. He put the car in a snowbank. Then we got towed out and he paid for that. Not only would he not pay for part of the rim/rotor that was damaged, he asked me to pay him back for the tow truck..... After that we did not talk for a long time. I could understand why I should take the grunt of the payment but he asked to drive, and then did not even want to help for $60 because he could not drive in the weather conditions....

[X20A]

Thanks for the reply, RFD. Since it seems that most responses are in that I cannot build a case around it, I'll just suck it up and pay for the replacement. This vehicle is just a winter car for me, that's why I wanted it to be cheap, and the mileage was fairly irrelevant than that I wanted a Type S.

Other than this clutch problem, the car is absolutely fine mechanically.

Thanks.

[jcon]

Other than this clutch problem, the car is absolutely fine mechanically.

So you knew it was hooped before loaning it out? Yeah, then I side with your friend. I don't think you have much of a case.

[X20A]

So you knew it was hooped before loaning it out? Yeah, then I side with your friend. I don't think you have much of a case.

Please, the car was okay to begin with. Now you're taking my words out of context. It only became a problem after the debacle. When I test drove the car, it was fine, tested all the electronics, wipers, everything, there were no weird noises with the car at idle or when being driven. It accelerated properly and the gears weren't slipping.

Perhaps yes, it is due to the car's high mileage and the unknown condition of the clutch and not knowing whether the clutch was going to be on it's way out, but the point is that the friend exacerbated the clutch wear, which resulted in the need for it to be replaced as soon as it is.

But to assume that I KNEW the car was damaged is just preposterous. I didn't force the friend to drive it, nor did I offer to let the friend drive. The friend kept insisting to want to drive it, and I caved in to that pressure. Which, like some RFD members have pointed out, was not the wisest thing to do.

So stop pointing unwarranted fingers at me.

[jcon]

You said the only thing wrong with your car is the clutch. Either you're a mechanic and you knew the clutch was going or you don't 'see' anything wrong but you don't really know.

You've painted the picture that this is all your friends fault that the clutch blew. I doubt that.

[X20A]

You said the only thing wrong with your car is the clutch. Either you're a mechanic and you knew the clutch was going or you don't 'see' anything wrong but you don't really know.

You've painted the picture that this is all your friends fault that the clutch blew. I doubt that.

As far as I could tell from test driving the car, yes, it seems like everything was in order and functional. I'm far from being a mechanic, but based on the driving feel of the car, I thought it was okay.

Yes, no doubt I feel that the friend had a part to play, but that's why I came here for an opinion on what my options are, and now it's clear that I should just fix it myself.

[phomp]

the car came with no warranty? With that amount of KM's prehaps not.

Good luck! Hopefully the $ is not to steep.

[Setz]

http://www.gigatv.net/mp4/Seinfeld/season4/metadata/304120.jpg

It still smells!

[broc]

When he was driving the car, and it started to smell, did you tell him to stop/pull over? Was it obvious that he wasn't driving it correctly?

If you answer no to either of those questions, it's not his fault at all. You basically have to prove he was the cause of the damage. He wasn't. He probably felt guilty about your old as **** car being damaged goods already so offered to help, but really none of this is his fault. If you were driving the car I would bet the same would have still happened.

[grant]

going to court is a waste of time & money. Forget about it.

So you have a "friend" who "pressures" you so much that you "cave" into letting him use your stuff. Then he makes promises about repairs that he doesn't keep.

Is this REALLY the kind of person you want to hang out with? low self esteem?

[RenegadeX]

Note the text I've bolded. It's both interesting and telling, if my assumption is correct, that you typed out "the friend" so many times when using "she" or "her" in its place would have been so much shorter.. :cheesygri
About 2 weeks ago, I let a friend drive the car after they asked several times throughout the evening. We started the drive from Kennedy and Highway 7, went up to Major MacKenzie, east to McCowan, and back down to McCowan and Highway 7.

Halfway through the ride, the car just reeked of burnt clutch smell. It would seem that perhaps the clutch was being ridden while the car was being taken to high revs.

So now the car has a very slippery clutch, and opening the throttle causes a seemingly neutral gear revving situation where the car accelerates super slow.

My friend then offered at first to fix the car. But after I had visited an independent mechanic and stated the prices, the friend started making excuses to back out.

Since it seemed like the friend burned the clutch, I suggested they only pay for the friction disk and the labour which would have come out to about 800 dollars. But usually as with clutches, it is recommended to replace the pressure plate and release bearing as part of the clutch assembly kit, which I had said I would pay for.

The friend then says they asked an Acura mechanic about the situation and that the mechanic replied that car is too old, and that the car already had problems, and hence the fault did not lie with the friend. (Which is ludicrous because, how can you say that, without actually seeing car.)

I then went to an Acura dealership and spoke to both a service advisor and a technician, and both informed me that it was possible to ruin a clutch in 20 minutes if they were shifting improperly and was riding the clutch along with hard revving, which was the case.

Right now, I'm still open for negotiation if the friend does so wish to resolve this. However, I am thinking I need to take this to small claims court. When I brought this point up to the friend, the friend welcomed me to take them to court. Would I be able to make a case out of this?

Thanks RFD!It's funny that I came across this post as just the other day, I watched a 'Judy Judy' episode in which a guy allowed some 'hot chick' he met at a party ride his motorbike after she repeatedly asked him to allow her to, and.. she ruined his bike. Their story is quite similar to yours in many ways.

In the 'case' that aired on tv, the guy didn't really know the girl and despite the fact that she was half-drunk, because she kept asking, and because he apparently (mistakenly) thought that saying "yes" would improve his chances of getting laid, he caved in and granted her her wish. But of course before letting her hop on[the bike], he asked, "Do you know how to drive it?", and of course, she said "Yes", even though she really didn't, and because the truth is that her apparent desperate urge to ride it down the street wasn't really about riding the bike (as that'd be completely stupid to do if you don't have a licence let alone experience on such a bike - and she had neither, and evidently didn't think for one moment about the possible consequences of her lie) -- she just wanted an ego boost by confirming that her looks and flirty mannerisms could get her whatever she wanted.

Next thing he knew, she'd crashed the bike and caused a couple thousand dollars-worth of damage to it. "Thankfully", she was unhurt. The guy says he felt bad for her, empathizing with the sense of guilt and responsibility that he *imagined* she was feeling, but suggested to her at the time that she should pay for at least half of the costs to repair it. The girl initially said "okay" thinking damage would be no more than $300 (Judy Judy laughed and referring to the extensive damage shown in the pictures, admonished her for her ignorance and/or stupidity), but then she avoided taking phone calls from the guy in a blatant attempt to weasel her way out of paying. And when he finally did track her down and get a hold of her, she refused to cough up the money. So, the guy threatened to take her to court, and like you she flippantly said "Sure, go ahead!". Somehow, they ended up on 'Judge Judy' and the guy, now fed up with the girl's unwillingness to pay, was seeking a judgment for the entire repair bill, not just the half previously agreed upon.

Judge Judy's verdict? : When you allow someone to operate your vehicle, you need to *really* know who it is you're giving it to. How long have you known them? Are they trustworthy? Do they have the means to pay if they damage your property? Don't just take their word that they know how to drive properly, get proof (ie: if the girl had shown up at the party riding her own motorbike, it'd have been a start). Basically, do your due diligence so that the risk to your property is minimized. And if you don't bother to do that, then the fault for any accident that results lies not only with the driver, but on you, the lender, too. Therefore, Judge Judy's judgment for the plaintiff - she ordered the girl to pay $1000 to the owner (approx 1/2 the repair cost).


Even if we assume for a moment that you've known 'the friend' for a long time and you know they have driven stick before, you've admitted in your first post that partway through the drive with 'the friend' at the wheel, you could smell burnt clutch and that it was possibly due to 'the car was being taken to high revs'. Therefore, as you were aware that the car was being driven 'hard'[high revs] and shortly afterwards a smell was at that point now present - and as you allowed the situation to continue rather than take back control of the car, it's no longer a 50-50 situation. As you were apparently 'okay' with the way the car was being driven, it's got to be more like 60-40 your fault.

If I was 'the friend', no matter what the mileage on the car, I would feel guilty about it and would not feel right making you, the owner, take the full brunt of the repair cost - whether it was $50 or $500. So in that respect, as the repair cost is actually higher than initially had been thought, one has to question how much of a 'friend' 'the friend' really is.

In the 'Judge Judy' case, the guy's act of kindness didn't end up getting the guy laid that night, and due to what's happened since the fateful night, WASN'T NOW EVER GOING TO (unless she's a really dirty piece of trash and agrees to 'work' off her debt, wink-wink). When 'the friend' isn't willing to pay what's fair and says "Fine! Take me to court!", it tells us that 'the friend' thinks you're being unreasonable and doesn't really care about the inconvenience they have caused you, the damage to your property they have caused, the cost to your wallet they have caused, or the damage to your 'friendship' that their choice of reaction to the situation will have, so you may as well toss aside being 'nice' and play instead join them in playing hardball.

If you go to Small Claims Court there's no guarantee you'll win even half of the repair costs, and it's an annoyance to go through, and not even over if you win as it make take some time to collect the money awared . However, going through with that is also an inconvenience and unneeded headache for 'the friend', so even if you lose, perhaps there's some consolation in that (ie: they're not just going to walk away from the incident and immediately be able to forget that it ever happened).

So, I would try to talk things over with 'the friend' and settle for 30-40% of the bill. Then you can be over & done with and put this all behind you, lesson learnt. If they don't go for that, then gather your evidence and prepare your case for court.

PS: old clutch or not, what did it in was 'the friend' riding the clutch - no doubt about it - as you said there was no issue beforeforehand and as you specifically mentioned 'high revs' during 'the friends' drive. A combination of high revs and riding the clutch is the best way to quickly destroy a clutch.

When the clutch pedal is not in use and a clutch system is operating properly, the clutch plate ('clutch disc') and the engine's flywheel are locked together - the engine and the transmission input shaft spin at the same speed. When the clutch pedal is pressed down, the pressure plate behind the clutch disc pulls away, releasing and pulling apart the plate from the flywheel. If they re-engage while spinning at vastly different speeds (because the driver's foot is only partially depressing the clutch pedal while the engine is at high RPM), the friction material on the disc gets quickly scoured away against the flywheel - that's what you smell.

When enough of it has worn away, the 2 surfaces can't grip each other, and the clutch 'slips' and won't transmit power from the engine to the wheels. (Typically, the first sign you'll get that a well-used clutch is on the way out is that the revs will start to 'race' on their own - revs go up but engine power does not). So an old clutch that has--through normal use--finally got to the point where there's hardly any friction material left *shouldn't* suddenly start producing strong 'burnt clutch' odour, as you described - it'd simply slip.

[windforcexx28]

Just suck it up and let it be an expensive lesson.

[weedb0y]

I thought Hondas were perfect. Dang.

Let me buy back my perfectly strong GM at 320K which I sold for dirt cheap. lol

Sorry, but I think the transmission was going to go anyway. It is a old car and Honda transmissions are not known for their long term durability.