Where to buy combination whetstone for knife sharpening?

[slowtyper]

Is a combination stone necessary or is one grit good enough for sharpening knifes for home use?

My dad actually has one sharpening stone but I don't know what grit and I believe its the same on both sides. I was thinking about taking his but I might just buy a new one if a combination stone is much better.

So where should I get one and how much are they?

[duckdown]

i bought mine from the same place i bought my knife, JCF online, but it is not combination. I have 2 seperate stones..

http://japanesechefsknife.com/HowToSharpen.html
http://japanesechefsknife.com/HowToSharpen2.html


oh look they have combination stone now http://japanesechefsknife.com/WhetStonesForSale.html

they are a very reliable seller and reccomend Koki 100%... all of my transactions with him have been very smooth and exactly as ordered..shipping is fast & affordable and he is knowledgeable about items and even for comparing 1 item vs. another

good luck

[velomane]

Don't forget about Lee Valley Hardware.

I'd consider one of the Norton combos if I were you, specifically,the 1000/4000 which is here (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=51817&cat=1,43072,43071).

There's also this (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=33009&cat=1,43072,43071&ap=1) Japanese water stone.

Mike

[tsatsa]

Don't forget about Lee Valley Hardware.

I'd consider one of the Norton combos if I were you, specifically,the 1000/4000 which is here (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=51817&cat=1,43072,43071).

There's also this (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=33009&cat=1,43072,43071&ap=1) Japanese water stone.

Mike

I got one these 1000/4000 one from Lee Valley and quite happy with it.

[Keelie]

i bought mine from the same place i bought my knife, JCF online, but it is not combination. I have 2 seperate stones..

http://japanesechefsknife.com/HowToSharpen.html
http://japanesechefsknife.com/HowToSharpen2.html


oh look they have combination stone now http://japanesechefsknife.com/WhetStonesForSale.html

they are a very reliable seller and reccomend Koki 100%... all of my transactions with him have been very smooth and exactly as ordered..shipping is fast & affordable and he is knowledgeable about items and even for comparing 1 item vs. another

good luck

What is the location?

[jayt90]

What is the location?

This is email order from Japan.
The prices and service are good, and the selection of really good knives is superb. Japanese postal rates put U.S. and Canada to shame.

What did you buy Duckdown?

[jayt90]

I got one these 1000/4000 one from Lee Valley and quite happy with it.

Lee Valley is a good source of sharpening stones, strops, jigs, steels, and whatever you might need to keep a good edge. There is always someone there who can advise.
Their knife selection is eclectic: Sabatier, Grohmann, and one or two Japanese blades, all of them well chosen.

[Keelie]

This is email order from Japan.
The prices and service are good, and the selection of really good knives is superb. Japanese postal rates put U.S. and Canada to shame.

What did you buy Duckdown?

So then it wont cost as much as it would to order from the states?

[aser]

So then it wont cost as much as it would to order from the states?

They charge $7 flat fee shipping for any amount you order, pretty good deal. If you want to avoid a customs hit, you can ask them to list the item as a gift w/ a lower value ($10 is good). Only bad thing is if you get insurance on your package, you're only insured up to the value of your declaration.

Lee Valley is your best bet for a local source. Ebay is also a good source of whetstones if you know specifically which brands you're looking for.

Better question is, what type of knife do you have? Japanese? German? It'll influence your stone purchasing decision.

Ideally you would want a minimum of 2 grits, the more the better obviously. You do not need anything beyond 2000 grit for a German knife. Japanese knives you can get past 10,000 grit because the harder steel can retain a finer edge.

[slowtyper]

I have german Henckel. Thanks for the grit recommendations. Any specific brands I should look for on ebay?

[slowtyper]

I have german Henckel. Thanks for the grit recommendations. Any specific brands I should look for on ebay?

BTW does anyone have a pic of what a properly sharpened edge should look like? I just got a knife back from sharpening and the blade looks very different now from the factory edge. Factory edge about 1 mm of the blade looks to be sharpened whereas now about 1cm of the blade looks sharpened (not quite smooth but kind of smudgy....)

As you can tell I'm not that experienced with knives, but I did get my knife sharpened once before somewhere else and the edge did not look like this (it also wasn't very sharp...this knife is now pretty sharp compared to before).

[aser]

Depends on the current level of damage on your knife.

If it's really dull, you need to start with a rough stone, around 500 grit. This stone will rarely be used if you maintain a regular sharpening routine. It can also be used to repair chips or broken tips on your knife.

The most used stone will be a 1000 grit. This will be a medium grit that helps to prepare a solid edge foundation. Your knife will be usable after this, but for a really sharp edge you should use a finer stone to finish.

A 2000 grit stone will help refine the edge to give it the sharpness you're looking for. You can test for sharpness but slicing on newspaper. If it goes through cleanly, then you've done a good job. If it doesn't or only slices midway then catches, you need to rehit the stones.

There is a learning process involved but once you've grasped it, it is extremely rewarding. You kinda feel "hunter gatherer" like, ready to take on the world w/ your sharp blade.

Most generic combination stone you buy at Canadian tire and such are far too rough to maintain a smooth edge. They're usually oil stones that are far messier to use than waterstones.

There are lots of incorrect information on sharpening, here are some good videos to learn from.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZj0I3mpBGg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eklOHO5oT0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y4Ihh0Va38

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5KCuriLZS0

http://korin.com/Learn/Sharpening

[aser]

As for brands, the popular ones are Shapton, King, Naniwa, Bester.

King is the most affordable, Naniwa and Shapton the more high end.

The stones listed by duckdown are higher grit, aimed at Japanaese blades. Don't bother going above 2000 w/ a German Henckel.

To confuse you even more, American stone ratings are different than Japanese. The stones I listed above are all Japanese.

[miss_swan]

In addition to the aforementioned info ... there's always www.paulsfinest.com ... I don't work there but I know they have lots of stuff (last time I checked).

[slowtyper]

Thanks for sharing your knowledge aser and everyone else as well.

[Keelie]

Yes, good information, thanks.

I'm new to this. I have a set of 3 Global knives, and while not dull by any means yet, I want to learn how to do this and keep them sharp!

[miss_swan]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention this, I posted this a long time ago. Not sure if you can read this because you may have to be logged in to view as a member ... this is a guide to sharpening knives from the eGullet forums

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?/topic/26036-knife-maintenance-and-sharpening/

[slowtyper]

Any of you knife gurus can tell me what kind of knife I have? Its stamped as Henckel Zwilling, but it doesn't say 4-star, 5-star, pro-s on it. It also looks different from all of those because it doesn't have a thick bolster at the heel of the blade, instead the heel is thin.

I think its at least 6 years old might be older.

Edit: I see it says "Twin Gourmet". I can't find much info, it seems like its the low end of the Twin brand. I think its stamped and not forged.

Hmm maybe I should get something better, for kicks.

[aser]

Henckels has two divisions, the ones produced in Solingen are forged. The one you have is probably from the International division, which is produced in places like China and such, and is stamped. These are cheaper and lower quality.

Does your knife have a bolster, if not, it's most likely stamped. Not having a bolster isn't such a bad thing because it makes sharpening over time easier.

As for Global, Keelie, you can use higher grit stones as Global's HRC rating (steel hardness rating) is higher than German knives. They can hold a thinner sharper edge, you sharpen at an angle of 15 degrees rather than 20-22.5 for German knives.

[slowtyper]

I read that its made in Germany however it is a stamped blade.

[Keelie]

I do believe the Zwilling is the higher end, it is not the International Division.

A google search will help.

[aser]

This is another good guide.

http://www.paulsfinest.com/pdf/naniwa_sharpen.pdf

[dealzuser]

I just picked up a replacement Spyderco Sharpmaker Knife Sharpener 204MF. (It packs up so nicely that I can't find it anymore after "putting it away"). It sharpened really well the one time we used our first set. :(


http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/ef/6f/198451c88da0ad5909fb2210.L._AA280_.jpg

I bought from Amazon and shipped to US mailbox. It seemed to have gone up in price in the last 2 weeks! (I paid only ~$40.)

http://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-Sharpmaker-Knife-Sharpener-204MF/dp/B000Q9C4AE

Alternatively, I bought my first set at LeBaron's in Markham. Their catalog says it's ~$70 now. (How we Canadians are ripped off...)

[craftsman]

They're usually oil stones that are far messier to use than waterstones.


Not so.

If you use oil with oil stones then they are messy. If you get a new oil stone or a natural stone and use soapy water all of the time (ie. never use oil with the oil stone), then you won't have the mess. Some people don't even use water... The soapy water is needed so that water will stick to the stone.

The nice things about a good oil stone are:
1. Generally cheaper than waterstones
2. last a heck of a long time without needing to flatten them

The bad things are:
1. They are slower than waterstones
2. They generally don't come in crazy grit numbers
3. You won't be in the "in" crowd of people who have went to waterstones

[craftsman]

Is a combination stone necessary or is one grit good enough for sharpening knifes for home use?

My dad actually has one sharpening stone but I don't know what grit and I believe its the same on both sides. I was thinking about taking his but I might just buy a new one if a combination stone is much better.

So where should I get one and how much are they?

A combination stone is the way to go for the average home. Most combination stones come in two types - course/medium or medium/fine. If you want to create a new angle or refurb a blade that has been damaged by years of improper sharpening, then you want both types. If you have knives in good shape, then a medium/fine will do. Previous posters have mentioned the uses of grades.

As for where to get them and what to get, don't get caught up in the name brands. There are generally two types - oil stones and water stones (sometimes called whetstones). Do some googling to find out the differences. I like the oil stones (call me old fashion) when used with some soapy water instead of oil for the reasons stated on my previous post. You can get natural or man made stones. The natural ones are actual chunks of stone while the man made ones are created by pressing material together to form a solid block. The natural ones are subject to inconsistency due to that fact that they are natural while the man made ones are consistent in quality.

I use oil/natural stones from Arkansas (yep call me old fashion) some of my work and a man made one for the course stuff. There are various type of Arkansas stones depending on the grit (ranging from soft (course), hard (medium), black/transparent (fine)). Always buy the largest stone you can afford as it will allow you to get more sharpening done in fewer passes of the blade. I got my Arkansas stone from http://www.naturalwhetstone.com/aboutus.htm and ordered their 8"x2"x1" combination soft/black stone. They also put them up for action on e-bay from time to time. For the man made one, get a Norton India Combination stone from Lee Valley - good course/medium stone for a reasonable price.

Remember never use oil on these stones, use soapy water like dishwater - fill a spray bottle or one of those oil sprayers that you hand pump and use that to dispense the fluid over the knife and the stone. Afterwards, just wash the stones under the tap.

[aser]

It is your opinion and you're entitled to it, I disagree. Whetstones are superior with proper technique. Brand names do matter w/ stones, they all have different characteristics. Perhaps you don't care for them but to dismiss it totally is ignorance. It's silly to label it as "in/trendy", it's popular because it sharpens well, simply put.

I find the "fine" sides of combination oil stones to be at best equivalent to a 1000 grit whetstone. I find that to be a bit lacking in sharpness, hence I go the whetstone route. The coarse oil stones are as rough as asphalt, they can cause serious damage if used incorrectly.

For other posters, knifeforums.com is an invaluable resource for this type of nerdery.

The spyderco is a good alternative for folks intimidated by the learning curve of stones.

[craftsman]

It is your opinion and you're entitled to it, I disagree. Whetstones are superior with proper technique.

Most people new to sharpening don't have the proper technique. With the proper technique, you can get a sharp edge with either a whetstone or an oil stone - the whetstones will be faster but the oil stones will generally be cheaper and last longer.


Brand names do matter w/ stones, they all have different characteristics. Perhaps you don't care for them but to dismiss it totally is ignorance. It's silly to label it as "in/trendy", it's popular because it sharpens well, simply put.


Having a large selection of brands and types is good for the experienced user. For most beginners who just want to get the feet wet, having a lot of choices just confuses the issue. Besides, I didn't say that name brands don't matter, I said don't get caught up in them. There is a big difference but I would rather have someone understand the different types and uses first before understanding that certain types of stones give different results.


I find the "fine" sides of combination oil stones to be at best equivalent to a 1000 grit whetstone. I find that to be a bit lacking in sharpness, hence I go the whetstone route.

Just as whetstones have different grades so do oil stones. A good quality Translucent Arkansas stone can pass for as high as 4000 grit. While that's not as high as some of the whetstones at 12,000 grit, most users will find that they are perfectly suitable for most consumer knives which are "softer". In fact, most people agree on the various forums (including knifeforums.com) that for the softer knives, there is little to no need to over 1,000 to 1,200 grit. By softer knives, I'm referring to most German branded knives due to the softer steel used.


The coarse oil stones are as rough as asphalt, they can cause serious damage if used incorrectly.


If you get the cheap stones, yes they can do serious damage if used incorrectly. I saw some at a local tool supply place for $4 a stone. But if you read my post, you will see that I'm recommending the Norton India combination stone which is a well respected oil stone that has a 220/320 grit sides. I don't believe that 220 grit is the same as asphalt.

[aser]

Sure there are good oil stones on the market, but the majority of them I find to be subpar in comparison to whetstones. Most people when hearing a recommendation for an oil stone will head to the local hardware store and pick up the $4 version because of availability. Whereas if you were to take the time to search of a whetstone, you won't find a commonly available $4 version. Plus the name oil stone itself suggests you use it w/ oil. You are right in that it can be used w/ water, but most people won't know this. Once you use oil you cannot revert back to water. I also find oil to be a more dangerous substance considering you're holding a knife, much easier to lose grip w/ oil floating about than it is with water.

For a beginner lacking knowledge, I find a whetstone to be more forgiving to improper technique. The minimum standard of quality will be much higher than the oil stone market.

[Keelie]

Why dont you two take your debate to PM.

[slowtyper]

I don't think that would be a good idea. Both are contributing to the thread and I'm happy to read both viewpoints.

[craftsman]

Sure there are good oil stones on the market, but the majority of them I find to be subpar in comparison to whetstones. Most people when hearing a recommendation for an oil stone will head to the local hardware store and pick up the $4 version because of availability. Whereas if you were to take the time to search of a whetstone, you won't find a commonly available $4 version. Plus the name oil stone itself suggests you use it w/ oil. You are right in that it can be used w/ water, but most people won't know this. Once you use oil you cannot revert back to water. I also find oil to be a more dangerous substance considering you're holding a knife, much easier to lose grip w/ oil floating about than it is with water.

For a beginner lacking knowledge, I find a whetstone to be more forgiving to improper technique. The minimum standard of quality will be much higher than the oil stone market.

Agreed - mostly. As with anything (unfortunately), there are subpar things that give everything else a bad name. At the end of the day, it comes down to research and knowledge of what you are going to buy.

As for oil for oil stones, if you are going to use oil, don't buy the sharpening/honing oil that they sell. It's mineral oil that has been marked up sold to unsuspecting people who think they need it... Buy bulk mineral oil and be happy when you clean up afterwards.... Or do what I do - mild detergent (hand dishwashing liquid) and a lot of water in a spray bottle. It's cheap, it works, and you need to use it to clean up the mess from sharpening anyway.

There is also a following of people out there who believe in not using any liquid at all whether it be for oil or whetstones. They think that it cuts faster and makes smoother surface...

As for a beginner lacking knowledge (the part that I kind of disagree on), while it's more forgiving in the area that it's hard to get a really bad stone, due to the large number of choices, beginners may buy more than they need and spend more than they have to. But that's the same with everything else in this world.

[craftsman]

I don't think that would be a good idea. Both are contributing to the thread and I'm happy to read both viewpoints.

Agreed. An healthy debate is about exchanging viewpoints so that information can be transfered.

As you can see, aser and I aren't that far off in our views. aser is passionate about his whetstones and I'm passionate about my oil stones. As long as we don't start throwing stones at each other ;) there shouldn't be problem.

For your knives, since they are Henkels, they are considered soft euro steel. So, the use of slower stones will be fine - just get good ones (not the $4 or $10 specials). For the Japanese or harder steels, most people do recommend the whetstones (as aser has stated) for their speed of cutting through the harder material.

A few months ago, I was in the same place you were in - needed stones but very few places to get them in Canada. Comb through the Lee Valley site and have a look at the following links

Grit chart to roughly compare the different materials (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=46224&cat=1,43072)
Water stones (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=43071&cat=1,43072)
Norton India combination oil stone (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=33018&cat=1,43072)

Unfortunately, it's really hard to get a good selection of stones in Canada - especially hard for oil stones.

If your technique is not very good (and don't want to learn), you might want to get one of the guilds:

Kit with stones (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32992&cat=1,43072,43079&ap=1)
Guide only (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32456&cat=1,43072)

I can't say with either system is any good since I don't use them. But the idea behind them is correct - maintain the knife at a certain angle to the stone in order to have an consistent edge.

[aser]

Like I mentioned in the hk dim sum thread, I don't mind opposing viewpoints as long as they're conveyed rationally w/ evidence. It is a good way to exchange ideas. At the end of the day, both routes work, and I recommend a user to try both before deciding. The oil stones craftsman recommended are quite good.

Do go to Lee Valley, it's your only source for a wide selection of stones in the city. I think Yamasho or Ozawa might have whetstones available for order too, but they're in pretty obscure locations. Yamasho carries a wide selection of Suisin knives, not cheap though...

The clamp system you linked to is a derivative of the lanksy sharpener. It works quite well actually. The main drawback is the reclamping of the knife as you shift the blade along to sharpen. Having to reclamp so many times wastes a lot of time.

http://www.lanskysharpeners.com/

The spyderco system actually works well too. If all you have is German Henckels and you don't want to bother w/ the learning curve of stones, then it is a good alternative. The one drawback to the system is that it's very easy to incorrectly sharpen the tip of your knife w/ it.

[slowtyper]

Again, thanks guys, I'll be doing more research on my own as well. Part of the reason why I want to learn is because I would like to upgrade to some better knives in the future. perhaps one better quality forged german knife and also one high (well, not THAT high) end japanese knife. These are probably over a year away though but I'm trying learn the maintenance bit now.

[Keelie]

I don't think that would be a good idea. Both are contributing to the thread and I'm happy to read both viewpoints.

It was looking like it might get out of hand. All is good.

[craftsman]

Again, thanks guys, I'll be doing more research on my own as well. Part of the reason why I want to learn is because I would like to upgrade to some better knives in the future. perhaps one better quality forged german knife and also one high (well, not THAT high) end japanese knife. These are probably over a year away though but I'm trying learn the maintenance bit now.

If you thought the topic of sharpening was ugly, wait until you start talking about better quality knives... If you are in the market for new knives, I would suggest that you look up my post in Hot Deals for a set of Henckels 4-stars ordered from the US. Now, you are going to get people who state that you should never buy a set of knives due to the fact that some knives in a set are not very useful. While this is true, I say if the set is of a high enough value, then the price per knife makes it attractive! I'm only bringing up the Henckel deal since it's seems to be a manufacturer's clearance on the 4-stars to make room for the 4-star IIs. You normally won't find a price this low in years!