Carfax a scam - on CBC Marketplace

[Crinkle_cut]

Anyone else watch the documentary on CBC Marketplace?!? It was crazy. Now Carfax is under a multi-million dollar lawsuit due to their reports not displaying accident history that competitor's reports show.

I saw one competitor is CarProof. Any other's?

I was always under the impression that Carfax was the #1 source for car histories, but if you watched how the Carfax representative side-stepped every question, it shows that it's a scam. And that they solely rely on other sources to provide them with info, and if they don't get the info, oh well.

When asked, "Your Carfax reports show no accident history, but in fact this car had frame damage from an accident that a competitor's reports clearly show." Their response "You'll have to ask the sources of that information why they do not provide their information to CarFax...We can't control if organizations do not supply us with information, and we clearly state that on our website"

10 cars out of 10 sold at a dealership had Clean CarFax Reports. But upon investigation (analysis by mechanics and a competitor's car history report), 7 of those 10 had accidents and damage that cost over 2k each to fix.

A big eye opener to say the least

[Lawcheehung]

It seems that you have found a source of information that could be helpful to carfax - that source of information being their competitors! :/

watched it too yesterday

[checm8]

wached it, was a real eye opener, but whose that competitor that they mentioned in Market place:confused:

[Moosebox]

wached it, was a real eye opener, but whose that competitor that they mentioned in Market place:confused:

Probably CarProof ?

[Crinkle_cut]

wached it, was a real eye opener, but whose that competitor that they mentioned in Market place:confused:

Yeah, I found it odd that they failed to mention the competitor. I watched the entire episode hoping that they'd reveal it. I think it's carproof based on my google searches, but not sure at all.

[marcopolo85]

Good thing i came across this, was about to get a carfax on a vehicle.

[Crinkle_cut]

https://www.carproof.com/downloads/KCStar04-25-2008.pdf

[magnodrome]

Btw, CBC Marketplace aired the carfax episode like 6 months ago.

The reason why CBC disclosed which reports they used was due to the need for CBC to be on an unbiased position while producing the documentary. Since the documentary took place in Vancouver, I am guessing that CBC were using the reports from IDBC and carproof (This was discussed on another post as well on the CBC website explaining why they did not comment on the reports they were using).

In fact, my co-worker went into the same problem as mentioned in the video, she bought a used jaguar from an used car dealership. I asked her if she had purchased any of those car reports. She told me that the dealer showed her a clean carfax report then I told her to spend $40 to get a carproof report as well to be on the safe side. Low and behold, there was a $10K claim on damages on the car.

[discodan]

wached it, was a real eye opener, but whose that competitor that they mentioned in Market place:confused:

If you go to CBC Marketplace website, other than CarFax, they also mention AutoCheck, CarProof and ICBC. Link: http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/2009/vehicle_history_reports/search.html

[zivan56]

ICBC reports are really good...every single insurance claim on the car shows up. Only if the car was always in BC though...

[hpad06]

when I was buying my car 3 years ago, I used both carfax and carproof, carproof gave me more information than carfax. so I a am not surprised to see this news

[macnut]

I thought this was well known to RFD forum members.

The CBC exposee first aired 8 months ago, but the advice here for the past few years has always been that Carproof gives much more reliable info. for Canadian cars.

See:

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=688178

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=545673

[joey3k]

I used CarFax for a vehicle I was buying about 2 years ago....
Came back clean.

I then ran my vehicle from 6 years back that had been in a serious collision (and I had later sold it,) and honestly the CarFax report came back absolutely clean, I immediately contacted them and received a refund.

[Swarez99]

What's the difference between Carfax, Carproof and ICBC (which I assume is only is BC)?
Where are the sources for the info for each one? Is there anything mandated that if there is an accident it must be reported to one of these three bodies

[Crinkle_cut]

What's the difference between Carfax, Carproof and ICBC (which I assume is only is BC)?
Where are the sources for the info for each one? Is there anything mandated that if there is an accident it must be reported to one of these three bodies

Car Proof supposedly has an agreement with the insurance companies. They probably pay the insurance companies money in return for claims information.

Carfax on the other hand is hoping insurance companies provide that same information free of charge to them. I think that's the primary difference between the two companies.

Because the insurance companies have no obligation to report claims to Carfax, they don't and this is where the gaps exist between what Carfax provides its customers and the actual accident history of the vehicles.

[Quiggie]

I saw this episode and thought it was poorly done and only told you stuff any car buyer with half a brain would already know: that Carfax is supposed to be a "first line of defence", not a foolproof guarantee. It should complement, not replace, a thorough check of the vehicle by someone who knows what to look for.

The CBC lady kept blaming Carfax for not having all the info, and the Carfax guy kept explaining how they enter in all the info as soon as they get it and they can't help it if someone witholds info from them, and she kept asking him the same stuff.

Then there was that idiot who bought that Xterra which turned out had some accident damage, and the CBC lady demanded a refund from the car salesman who sold it to him. When did anyone ever deserve a refund for not being a careful buyer? If I was that car salesman I would have told them both to F off.

In any case Marketplace probably had to examine a hundred vehicles before they finally found one with a clean carfax that had been in an accident.

[Crinkle_cut]

I saw this episode and thought it was poorly done and only told you stuff any car buyer with half a brain would already know: that Carfax is supposed to be a "first line of defence", not a foolproof guarantee. It should complement, not replace, a thorough check of the vehicle by someone who knows what to look for.

The CBC lady kept blaming Carfax for not having all the info, and the Carfax guy kept explaining how they enter in all the info as soon as they get it and they can't help it if someone witholds info from them, and she kept asking him the same stuff.

Then there was that idiot who bought that Xterra which turned out had some accident damage, and the CBC lady demanded a refund from the car salesman who sold it to him. When did anyone ever deserve a refund for not being a careful buyer? If I was that car salesman I would have told them both to F off.

In any case Marketplace probably had to examine a hundred vehicles before they finally found one with a clean carfax that had been in an accident.

I think the point is we live in a society where time is of an essence, and where society is too trusting. We have no time to do thorough check's, or is it worth it? Because by the time you take 3-4 days off work to do checks on a car, you've already lost 1k in salary. And if you don't buy the car, you repeat the process and lose another 1k in salary. Question is do people put a value on their time? And if so, how much?

In addition, people have become dependant on technology, and trust the accuracy of automated systems. I think the impression people are under is that Carfax gets automatically updated via system uploads from the insurance industry and police force systems; when in fact it does not. So we expect it to be up to date, and hence accurate. Else if we don't expect accurate reports, why are we paying them for this service? I can create a software application that automatically provides a clean report for any VIN entered. Does this entitle me to 1 billion dollar in sales?

In the end, seedy car salesmen are using these supposedly Clean records as a tool to sell it to the customer, knowing that the car has been in an accident but it doesnt show on carfax yet. They know the accident history because they are the ones buying the cars from auctions. So if they are doing improper business practices, you're damn right they deserve to give a refund to the customer, or at least be fined by the Better Business Bureau.

Also, they demanded a refund because 7 of the 10 cars he sold in the last month were in an accident (which was mentioned in the show), when the dealer said they were not. Not just the Xterra. So this shows the sales guy is shady, and should be shut down.

[Matryx]

Last week I almost bought a car that came up clean on a Carfax report that a used dealership provided me with. I put a deposit down and over the long weekend I decided to get a Carproof to see if everything is alright. I ran the report and found it 2 accidents and one of them was over $5000 in damages!
I'm glad I got the Carproof and went to show the dealer that and ask for my deposit back.

[m4gician]

Yawn...repost (I posted it too :)).

Don't you wanna smack that butterball who kept smiling? "That information wasn't reported to carfax" haha

[Crinkle_cut]

Yawn...repost (I posted it too :)).

Don't you wanna smack that butterball who kept smiling? "That information wasn't reported to carfax" haha

He had the most fake Porky Pig smile ever. But he never stopped showing his teeth, and repeated the same phrase 3 times in a row.

[hightech]

This is the reason that I use Car Proof reports as just a data point, and go to a trusted mechanic who can spot accident damage.

No piece of paper is gonna tell you the whole story. A THOROUGH examination should speak mountains. If I am going to spend $$ on a car, I don't mind spending $100 to $200 for an appraisal. If the car is good, then I have piece of mind. If the car turns to have issues, then I can always raise the issue of the false advertising and misrepresentation with OMVIC, the Used Car Dealers Association and other venues to recover costs.

Lot of these private shops are really sleazy and I don't doubt for a minute that they are trying to pull things off left and right.

[zivan56]

Then there was that idiot who bought that Xterra which turned out had some accident damage, and the CBC lady demanded a refund from the car salesman who sold it to him. When did anyone ever deserve a refund for not being a careful buyer? If I was that car salesman I would have told them both to F off.


Maybe in Ontario. In BC, it is the law to report this on a standard car sale contract:

DECLARATIONS

Canadian Import - This means the vehicle was once registered for road use in a different province. (It does not mean you have to inspect the vehicle.) All vehicles sold here are the BC Registered, (unless we say the vehicle needs to be certified.)

Foreign Import - This means the vehicle was registered in another country. Once again it will be a BC Registered car unless otherwise specified.

DAMAGE OVER $2000.00 - means the vehicle was involved in an accident with over $2000.00 in repair. This is in repair damage not existing damage. (most people here don't buy a car if it has this on it)

REBUILT - means the vehicle was an insurance WRITE OFF. All rebuilds must be certified by ICBC before going back on the road. All rebuilt vehicles we sell are ICBC registered.

INSURANCE WRITE-OFF PARTS ONLY - means the vehicle sells as parts only. It can not be put back on the road.

INSURANCE WRITE-OFF - means the vehicle must be rebuilt and certified before going back on the road.

EX TAXI - means it used to be a taxi

EX POLICE - means it used to be a police vehicle

EX LEASE - means it used to be on a lease

EX RENTAL - means it used to be a rental vehicle.

Looks like this for private sales:
http://www.icbc.com/vehicle-registration/buying-selling/transfer-tax.pdf
But dealers use a different, although standard, one.

So he could have taken them to court and they would have lost their dealer license plus have to pay compensation to the guy for lying (and therefore violating a legally binding contract).

[ES_Revenge]

CarFax is not a scam per se, it just doesn't work well for most provinces in Canada. This has been said time and time again...

For US cars, get a CarFax; for Cdn. cars get a CarProof. ;)

[bimmer009]

The competitor report they showed was CarProof.

The big problem with all of these vehicle history reports is that it's impossible for any company to ensure that the information they have for a vehicle is current and accurate. There are just too many layers of regulatory filters that vehicle data has to pass through.... i.e. insurance companies, transportation ministry local office, provincial office, etc.

For a non-government organization to get their hands on current vehicle accident/fraud/ownership data is pretty much impossible... they do have lots of data, but they certainly can't guarantee that it's not 6 months out of date.

Accidents for example can take a long time to filter through the insurance and government layers and so, between the date of the accident and the date the third-party vehicle report is updated, the vehicle could have been repaired, sold, and transferred to a new owner who would have no clue.

[actng]

carfax is a waste of money
i spent $20 on one report back in 2002 and it was a waste of money. it didn't tell me anything i didn't already know, from the MTO report. so i emailed them and complained and got my money back. never considered car fax again.

thus my experience is that the MTO UVIP package is pretty good for disclosing accidents, etc. although i recognize that may not be the case for every vehicle out there, i will still shy away from PAYING for carfax in the future

[tjthemanto]

I saw this episode and thought it was poorly done and only told you stuff any car buyer with half a brain would already know: that Carfax is supposed to be a "first line of defence", not a foolproof guarantee. It should complement, not replace, a thorough check of the vehicle by someone who knows what to look for.

The CBC lady kept blaming Carfax for not having all the info, and the Carfax guy kept explaining how they enter in all the info as soon as they get it and they can't help it if someone witholds info from them, and she kept asking him the same stuff.

Then there was that idiot who bought that Xterra which turned out had some accident damage, and the CBC lady demanded a refund from the car salesman who sold it to him. When did anyone ever deserve a refund for not being a careful buyer? If I was that car salesman I would have told them both to F off.

In any case Marketplace probably had to examine a hundred vehicles before they finally found one with a clean carfax that had been in an accident.

Not everyone who is buying a used car is a mechanic or a car professional . Some of these accident damages are so well concealed its almost impossible to find them unless you are a pro .

You can't always take a professional or car mechanic ( and pay them ) with you each and everytime you go and look at used cars that's wht there are agencies like carproof , carfax etc for the average joe . The info they give should be reliable , accurate & trustworthy especially since they are charging you for it .

What next ??...we shouldn't even rely on the e-test & safety certificate & should we do these tests ourselves ??

[tjthemanto]

What does the CAR FAX & CAR PROOF report have that the USED VEHICLE INFORMATION PACKAGE ( UVIP ) from the MTO doesn't have ???

Isn't the UVIP from MTO pretty thorough as regards to the car history etc or am I wrong ?

Does the UVIP also show accidents , insurance claims , liens etc or does it not show all that ?

I think we should just have one agency like the MTO issuing the UVIP instead of these diff agencies ...& they should be thorough about it .

[Anonymouse]

This is the reason that I use Car Proof reports as just a data point, and go to a trusted mechanic who can spot accident damage.

No piece of paper is gonna tell you the whole story. A THOROUGH examination should speak mountains.


This is the only sensible way to use Carfax/CarProof. It's mainly a screening tool. Nothing replaces a Mark I eyeball in front of a brain that knows to look for overspray and inconsistent panel gaps. Does the car track straight down the road? Does it stop in a straight line? I'm not sure you need a mechanic to inspect a car for you, although a make-specific mechanic can tell you about common faults/recalls and whether there is any evidence that they've been addressed.


Lot of these private shops are really sleazy and I don't doubt for a minute that they are trying to pull things off left and right.

I'm not sure you can legitimately call lots of shops "sleazy"; the fact is that the cars tend to come from the auction and the dealers don't know anything more than you do about the cars. All kinds of accidents happen without any kind of paper trail because people are petrified of high insurance rates. Your hope is that any major accident will get claimed and will appear on the CarProof.

Most dealers will be happy to refund your money or otherwise compensate you if you discover accident damage that wasn't disclosed; the auction will take the car back if it's not as described so it's no skin off their nose. Nobody wants stories about undisclosed accidented cars floating around on fora like this one. (Of course, there are exceptions; some operators who haven't been in the business for long and won't last.)

[ES_Revenge]

What next ??...we shouldn't even rely on the e-test & safety certificate & should we do these tests ourselves ??
While doing an e-test is outside the scope of what you can do without expensive test equipment, safety certificates are often "faked" in terms of the car doesn't really pass the safety but the [shady] mechanic certifies it anyway. And yes IMO you shouldn't rely on the safety certificate if it's provided/facilitated by the dealer selling you the car. In fact if you are driving on the road, you should know enough to do a safety inspection on the car yourself and get a pretty good idea of whether it's legit or not.

Unfortunately, of course the government doesn't require you know a damn thing about about a vehicle before getting on the road which only contributes to road danger as well as making it easier for people to get ripped off in these very situations. :rolleyes:

Again here's a question to think about... Would you get in an aircraft with a pilot that didn't know a thing about the machine he/she was flying? Of course you wouldn't. (And the laws regarding flying an airplane wouldn't let them either.) So why get in a car and drive around yourself if you don't know anything about the machine you're in?

[Delroy666]

I then ran my vehicle from 6 years back that had been in a serious collision (and I had later sold it,) and honestly the CarFax report came back absolutely clean, I immediately contacted them and received a refund.

I had a similar experience. I got a couple of free Carfax reports from some promotion a few years ago. Out of curiousity, I ran my car that had been in a couple of reported accidents and it came back totally clean. Carfax reports are useless IMO. Glad to learn about Car Proof.. will check them out next time I'm buying a used car.

[metta2006]

What would I use to search for accidents in cars that were imported from the US? The car I want to buy was bought used in the US by the current owner and he has kept the car in BC for the last two years. He had Carfax done on the car when he bought it two years ago and it was clean.
Can I just do ICBC report and trust the Carfax? Or should I do some other accident report that checks the cars in the US and Canada? Thanks.

[adamtheman]

Car Proof is by far the best one out there. It's over twice the price of Carfax, but much, much better for BC residents.

[ThePointblank]

ICBC reports are also very good as well if you know the vehicle was primarily registered in BC.

[NuclearBlast]

CarFax is not a scam per se, it just doesn't work well for most provinces in Canada. This has been said time and time again...

For US cars, get a CarFax; for Cdn. cars get a CarProof. ;)
I bought an Ontario car and CarProof didn't even have the mileage that is reported to MTO every year nor did it have any other useful information that CarFax didn't have. CarFax had all the reported kilometers, every year. Go figure.