Recycling is BS?

[DiploDocus]

3 parts on youtube:

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNJ__Pw_jaY
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZQ41cceCD8
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0JtRIdamXs


I do feel good recycling because i feel i am doing something "good" and in this youtube 3 part tv show they bring up that topic

is recycling beneficial at all?

Their argument that it takes more energy to recycle and have vehicles come out to houses that pollute etc

Our city doesn't have curb side recycling, we have places in the city where we drop it off and I ride my bicycle down to this area so does the video then have any merit to what i'm doing? In a way i'm angry about it because its taking away what I thought i was doing good and making me feel stupid

The video in a way reminds me of George Bush coming out and saying global warming is BS and you have so many sides and opinions saying its not BS and it is BS...WHO's TELLING FACTS?

I want to do the right thing, thats the important thing but I have no idea what that is...throwing my garbage out I know where it ends up and what happens to it but going to the recycle bin I also know its being turned back into something re-usable and won't end up being covered in dirt...

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhh OPinions opinions PEOPLE!!!! :mad:

[craftsman]

A couple of thoughts-

http://susansternberg.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/recycle-logo.jpg

If you have a look at the image above, "the whole process" (I'll use this term to describe - reduce, reuse, recycle - rather than just recycle since the word recycle can be confused for the process or the step) is made up of three steps - reduce, reuse, and recycle. The whole process should be followed and not just one step - recycle. It does nobody any good if we just buy something and throw it away... If you reduce and reuse first, we will just recycle the stuff that's left over.

For example, buying 4 - 2.5 Kg bags of sugar versus buying a 1 - 10 Kg bag of sugar. Besides the lower cost of the 10 Kg bag, the 10 Kg bag will have less packaging to dispose of which means that we have reduced the amount of material to be recycled. Or if you look at plastic water bottles - if you need bottled water for some reason, buy the larger 1 L or 5 L size and use smaller reuseable bottles for portability. In this case, we have re-used and reduced by not having the .5L disposable bottles and only need to recycle the larger bottles which should have less packaging. (Of course, if we used tap water, we wouldn't even need to think about the recycling part.)

The last step of recycling as with any last step is to handle what is left over if the first two steps aren't followed or can't be followed. Can we replace the "recycle" step with "dispose"? Possible. Will it be cheaper and smarter to do so? Maybe.

The flaw in the Penn and Teller video and most people's thinking is the above - they either don't know about the first two steps or ignore them.

[neuroscispec]

Are you actually going to base your actions on a television show that makes money by using provocative messages?

The bottom line: keep recycling.

[ferkel]

Its definitely BS if you live in Toronto. Our Blue Bin stuff gets shipped to China, and our Green Bin stuff gets put in the landfill.

[craftsman]

Are you actually going to base your actions on a television show that makes money by using provocative messages?

The bottom line: keep recycling.

I'm not saying that you are wrong but -

You have to remember that you can say the same thing about the environmental movement - they get their money by using provocative ads and "studies" to scare people as well...

[RiCHC3]

One interesting thing I read awhile back was that it costs something like 10x more energy to -make- a PAPER bag than it does to make a plastic bag. Obviously, paper bags are recyclable though, but it's still 4x more energy to recycle a paper bag than to make a plastic bag.

The point is relatively moot when you compare it with the standard re-usable bags we have now.

[don242]

There is so much credibility from a show with someone who swears throughout it.

Like mentioned above, there is more important steps like reduce and reuse before recycling that comes out of the environmental shift the show criticized.

I am sure it takes more energy to recycle many products than it does to make new. More and more products are being taken in recycling bins even though they are not worth recycling. They are being taken because the public wants to feel good about putting more items in the bins. But making people more aware of what they are producing in trash is not a bad thing. When people are paying attention to what they are throwing out it leads to the first points again about reducing and reusing.

The points made about recycling using additional trucks and transportation though really don't make sense. Yes there is an extra truck to pick up the recycling but if there was no recycling they would need twice as many normal garbage trucks to pick up the extra garbage.

Maybe landfills are cheaper but no one wants them around. You need to move them to more and more remote destinations as far away from people as possible. This means that more garbage has to be transported further to take it to a landfill. Of course transporting the recyclables oversees also seems ridiculous.

Anyway, the show gave something to think about but it was certainly wholly biased against recycling. I am definitely not going to stop recycling based on anything I saw there.

[neuroscispec]

Its definitely BS if you live in Toronto. Our Blue Bin stuff gets shipped to China, and our Green Bin stuff gets put in the landfill.

I work for the city and that is entirely false. I suspect ferkel is either being a troll or incredibly ignorant. I don't know where ferkel is getting his information from but anyone with half a brain would know what he suggests is absolutely ridiculous.

The Green Bin material is used to make compost:

Where is the organic material going?
Your organic materials are picked up at the curb by collection vehicles and taken to the Dufferin Organics Processing Facility in Toronto, which was built specifically for the Green Bin Organics Program. A biological process that uses bacteria in the absence of oxygen ("anaerobic digestion") converts the organics into organic solid material. This material is taken to another facility where it is turned into compost.

What will the finished compost be used for?
It will be used as a soil amendment for farmland and parkland.


The blue bin material is cleaned, processed then sold to manufacturers.

[Gidget]

I work for the city and that is entirely false. I suspect ferkel is either being a troll or incredibly ignorant. I don't know where ferkel is getting his information from but anyone with half a brain would know what he suggests is absolutely ridiculous.

The Green Bin material is used to make compost:



The blue bin material is cleaned, processed then sold to manufacturers.


I take it you didn't read the The Star investigation/report on recycling in Toronto.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/660864

[craftsman]

The points made about recycling using additional trucks and transportation though really don't make sense. Yes there is an extra truck to pick up the recycling but if there was no recycling they would need twice as many normal garbage trucks to pick up the extra garbage.

Maybe landfills are cheaper but no one wants them around. You need to move them to more and more remote destinations as far away from people as possible. This means that more garbage has to be transported further to take it to a landfill. Of course transporting the recyclables oversees also seems ridiculous.

Actually, it does make more sense than you think. A few things are generally assumed:

1. The routes are perfect or almost perfect so that the trucks are full or nearly full at the completion of the route - Route is optimize for fullness of the truck.

2. Old garbage trucks are re-tasked to hold recycling and these trucks will hold the same amount of materials. Also, for simplicity sake, the recycling truck is a magic truck where the partitions for paper/glass/plastics are correctly sized for the route so that a full truck will be nearly full in all partitions.

3. No external arrangements are in place - labour or business. Therefore, the movement of trucks and staff between garbage and recycling can be optimized perfectly.

If you take these things into account, then it's very possible that it will take more recycling trucks to do the same amount of work as you would save on garbage trucks.

Examples -

1. If you look at the thought process or the algorithms involved in planning a route, you are certain priorities. Sure you can plan a perfect route but the question of what a perfect route comes into play. Do you want the fastest way to do it with the least amount of trucks regardless how much each truck does? Or do you want all of the trucks to be full when they return to the depot regardless of how long it takes?

2. Recycling trucks, unless magical, cannot hold the same amount of sorted stuff as a crusher on wheels. If you just look at glass and plastic bottles, you will see that a lot of times the bottles are not crushed (may be broken) and there is a lot of "air" left in the partition. Also, it's possible that the wrong partition size was chosen for that route or for that day and one partition is full before the others are. This leaves an option of either leaving certain recyclables on the curb and filling the truck with what you can or using another truck.

3. Labour agreements can cause issues. Its possible that in a worker's contract that picking up recyclables is not the same as garbage and that the agreement does not allow for transferring of personnel between the two jobs. Also, you might not be able to lay them off since it wasn't the workers fault that the city decided to collect less garbage. So, you might be forced to run more trucks. Also, there might be certain clauses that prevent you from running a optimized route due to some labour regulation so this can affect point 1 as well.

It might seems that I might be against recycling, I'm not. But we should not be blindly doing stuff just because it seems like it's the right thing to do...

[ferkel]

I take it you didn't read the The Star investigation/report on recycling in Toronto.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/660864

Who's got half a brain now neuroscispec? We really didn't expect much from you anyways. You really think the city is recycling? The compost is so high in sodium its toxic.

[Ohboiya]

I work for the city and that is entirely false. I suspect ferkel is either being a troll or incredibly ignorant. I don't know where ferkel is getting his information from but anyone with half a brain would know what he suggests is absolutely ridiculous.

The Green Bin material is used to make compost:



The blue bin material is cleaned, processed then sold to manufacturers.

I too am disenchanted about recycling after the report that was linked.

It's another reason why I will be active in ensuring Mayor David Miller does not get an opportunity to turn Toronto into an even worse city than it is right now. After eight years in office ... what legacy will he be leaving with? A city much worse than when he came in.

[Lizz__20]

That's horrible the way the system's being run in Toronto. It's more strict in Hamilton - compostable liners only, no animal waste or diapers.

I know the comparison given earlier was for creating a paper or plastic bag new, but like someone else stated reusable bags solve that dilemma. Recycling is still better on a product by product basis because most statistics state it takes less energy to recycle something than to make it from new material. If we're going to produce an item anyway it may as well be from recycled materials. Plus your not stripping more resources from the earth, plus you don't need to allocate a new portion of the earth to house the waste.

[JAC]

I take it you didn't read the The Star investigation/report on recycling in Toronto.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/660864

Wow. Toronto's program really sucks.

[vitaminJ]

Their argument that it takes more energy to recycle and have vehicles come out to houses that pollute etc



Quite the opposite i think. I recall hearing that recycling an aluminum can uses as little as 5% of the energy of mining the same amount of new aluminum, i expect a lot of stuff is the same concept. You are basically right to want to recycle and consider the opposite George-Bushy.

Of course there's no shortage of greenwashing by corporations who want the public to believe they are super green, and misinformation (by "Bush types", to keep the stereotype going) but we should recycle and push to keep the programs good.

Of couse shipping recyclables to china is dubious, and here in newfoundland we only get half of the 10 cent "deposit" back for recycling...

And even though reduce/reuse/recycle saves society money in the long haul, even if that wasn't the case it would still be a good idea to recycle because resources are dwindling fast. We need to think not cradle to grave but cradle to cradle ("C2C"), not removing millions of tons of stuff from our limited resources every year, but trying to keep as much as possible in the economy.

One of the main sources of metals now is re-mining the discarded tailings of old mines ~

[robster77]

Wow. Toronto's program really sucks.

Yep, I've known this for years. Find it odd that The Star is just reporting on this now, as this has been an issue since Miller implemented the program years ago. I believe it was CP24 or City TV that did an investigation on it. It's why I don't recycle. My poor wife painfully goes through the effort of separating everything, and I've been telling her forever that it'll all end up in the same dump.

[champlinD]

Yep, I've known this for years. Find it odd that The Star is just reporting on this now, as this has been an issue since Miller implemented the program years ago. I believe it was CP24 or City TV that did an investigation on it. It's why I don't recycle. My poor wife painfully goes through the effort of separating everything, and I've been telling her forever that it'll all end up in the same dump.

I agree. It was CBC who reported this initially. Then rest like City TV /Star picked up. Yes its known for long time they just mix it up. I still separate Trash from Recycle items. Old Habits don't die.

[whodaphucru]

The big problem is the execution of the program not the principle of recycling (including reducing and reusing). For example in the GTA there are no consistant rules around Green Bin and Blue Box items, each areas has their own guidelines. While some of this is related to the technology in place at the processing centres other things just don't make sense. Why is a diaper accepted in some green bins and not others when there is clearly materials in a diaper that can't compost! The province or the federal government really needs to provide some leadership and create standards to be followed. The principle of composting is good and I use the free compost the city provides for my gardens each year. Even with the reports out there I have been happy to date however I am not sure how Durham's compost compares to others.

Anyone believing that recycling in principle is a waste or wrong is plain ignorant. We live in a world of finite resources that sooner or later will run out even though many people think that is a myth. In addition we also live in a culture based on consumption and the cheapest price possible to enable further consumption. These together are dangerous in that we are consumming things faster than they can be replenished and what we are consuming is made cheaper so they don't last as long leading to more consumption. Spend 10 or 15 minutes looking around the dump during the next visit and look at all the Ikea furniture and dollar store items making there way to the landfill.

I used to work in the automotive glass industry and we bought and used alot of recyced glass for the purpose of making new glass. That is an example of one use and there are many more so there are markets out there we just need to find them and make sure they make sense given what is being recycled.

With respect to the energy used to recycle versus using processing virgin material I think the answer is it depends on the material, the process used, where the material is going, where the material is coming from and the use of the material post recycling. Getting virgin materials is becoming more and more costly from a time and energy perspective making some recycling more attractive than ever.

While Toronto may be having execution issues, rather than saying everyone involved is useless and the program should be shut down we as citizens should be standing up to say how can this be fixed and improved for all of our sakes. Sooner or later Michigan and rural Ontario will stop taking our garage so it is either live with it in the city or find a way to reduce, reuse and recycle.

[ferkel]

I work for the city and that is entirely false. I suspect ferkel is either being a troll or incredibly ignorant. I don't know where ferkel is getting his information from but anyone with half a brain would know what he suggests is absolutely ridiculous.

The Green Bin material is used to make compost:


Some more reading for our incredibly ignorant city worker neuroscispec!

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/675739

[don242]

Some more reading for our incredibly ignorant city worker neuroscispec!

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/675739

At least this article also infers that some green bin waste is actually being composted. Still it is disheartening for people to know that their efforts are not be properly handled.

I wonder how other municipalities are doing with this program?

[neuroscispec]

Some more reading for our incredibly ignorant city worker neuroscispec!

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/675739

First of all, your citing the Toronto Star as a reliable source? Are you kidding me?

Look, reporters make money off these provocative false articles, if the article made you feel a little ticked off then they've done their job. If you read the article carefully you'll see that it is just pain speculation with biased facts. This is not a systemic problem but just a few former employees who are angry with the city and some overly eager journalists.

Sometimes, workers do it of their own volition, to make the job easier.

[QUOTE]A former manager in a transfer station confirmed he had seen this happen and that some managers allow the practice to get rid of

Lets all trust the "former manager" that was probably fired for being incompetent


I bet if you were to look into all professions, there will always be individuals who do a half-baked job or try to cheat the system and at most, this is what the article describes but from my experience the city doesn't allow this occur.

[stealth]

Theres some truth to it. The plastic bag thing is clearly another type of tax/gimme to businesses. There was no incentive to recycle these bags because people already recycle them, by re-purposing them for garbage and other household uses. I never saw people just throw them away. So now instead we have to buy similar plastic bags for these tasks instead? How is that better for the environment? Its a net-net, and only the vendors win. If they wanted to make a true difference they should focus on reducing the packaging that goods come in.

The other areas where recycling falls flat is in glass, which is hard to recycle in the first place as you cant mix different types of glass, as well as paper, which is already biodegradeable, requires toxic substances in the recycling process and is harvested from trees planted and grown specifically for this purpose.

But whatever...if it makes people feel good and creates a few jobs, I'll play along :)

[stealth]

First of all, your citing the Toronto Star as a reliable source? Are you kidding me?

Probably about as credible as an anonymous poster on the internet who claims to work in the industry :)
Both should be taken with a grain of salt :)

[ShadowVlican]

recycling ELECTRONICS WASTE is BS....
http://www.cbc.ca/national/blog/video/environmentscience/ewaste_dumping_ground_1.html

[neuroscispec]

Theres some truth to it. The plastic bag thing is clearly another type of tax/gimme to businesses. There was no incentive to recycle these bags because people already recycle them, by re-purposing them for garbage and other household uses.

There is a big difference between re-using and recycling. Plastic bags are very difficult to recycle hence the city ban.


If they wanted to make a true difference they should focus on reducing the packaging that goods come in.

That is a problem rooted in manufacturing, created by consumers. The government has little power controlling such.

But whatever...if it makes people feel good and creates a few jobs, I'll play along

I don't see where you're getting this from. None of your "rebuttals" justifies your conclusion. Metal -mostly Al, plastic and paper recycling bring in a sizeable income into Toronto. Simply because certain things can't be recycled doesn't justify calling recycling as BS.

[Genetics2009]

Where I work, the caretakers come by at night and dump everything into one bag. I was like WTF! What's the point of having a dedicated recycling bin in every office if everything gets mixed together at the end of the day:mad:.

[Psylocke]

Where I work, the caretakers come by at night and dump everything into one bag. I was like WTF! What's the point of having a dedicated recycling bin in every office if everything gets mixed together at the end of the day:mad:.

It was like that at my old job as well... we couldn't even put paper inside the bailer... :confused: Sooooo many reams went to waste!

[abu_sme]

recycling ELECTRONICS WASTE is BS....
http://www.cbc.ca/national/blog/video/environmentscience/ewaste_dumping_ground_1.html


Well, in theory it's being recycled...it's just being done in an unethical and dishonest fashion..


Recycling is BS for some things like glass (were not running out of silica), and many types of plastic...but definately not metal.

I now work in the mining industry and I can tell you, the amount of rock that has to be removed in order to produce a tiny amount of metal is insane. In some mine sites a 1 meter X 1 meter piece of rock has enough copper in it to make a penny (if they were still made out of copper that is)..This can be done economically.

I was at a copper mine a few weeks ago that removes 300,000 metric tonnes of rock PER DAY in order to get at the copper. This rock is then pulverized to dust, put into a froth flotation cell and/or uses an acid leach column. Worst of all, the tailing are rich in sulfur and when water comes into contact with this sulfur and mixes with the oxygen in the air it turns into sulfuric acid and leaches into the ground water and into water sheds.

Recycling metal is extremely cost effective and environmentally benign compared to mining

[dress_shirt]

That is a problem rooted in manufacturing, created by consumers. The government has little power controlling such.

How does the government not have a lot of control over that? Isn't the Government the one who manages all of the day to day things?

[nasersid]

How does the government not have a lot of control over that? Isn't the Government the one who manages all of the day to day things?

The Govt has control on one thing that is for example: raise 5 cents for consumers for every plastic bag and raise the environmental fees and disposal fee for more and more items. It is a scam run by Govt for corporations in large cases to make money and get more of their hands in your pocket. Oh yeah I forgot the new carbon tax for cars when your car confroms to environmental emmissions standards to begin with. Make money both ways thats what I mean. The more recycling the more the consumers will spend and there is profit margin for corporates and Govt is helping them achieve this.

[tha_solution]

I'm not saying Toronto's great but at least we're doing much more than other cities I've travelled to.

[mart242]

Theu should focus on reducing and then recycling:
- ban flyers
- ban fancy food packaging (ie: cereal boxes for exemple): why not put them in bags only on the displays (behind some fancy cardboard advertisement if needed)
- stop putting stuff in the friggin non-recyclable plastic packaging (mostly electronics)

[DiploDocus]

Theu should focus on reducing and then recycling:
- ban flyers
- ban fancy food packaging (ie: cereal boxes for exemple): why not put them in bags only on the displays (behind some fancy cardboard advertisement if needed)
- stop putting stuff in the friggin non-recyclable plastic packaging (mostly electronics)

very true

Most people i know throw flyers away, i know I used to do this

the plastic containers/bags used at groceries is insane, most of the stuff can't be recycled and its HUGE....grapes at Costco come in these huge plastic containers

[Bookpreviews]

Interesting!

I guess the Toronto mayor can claim not ot burn garbage because he sends it to Michigan to be burned?
Nice...

"What's more, some of the material residents are told to place in green bins – plastic bags and diapers – has wound up in the belly of a Michigan incinerator, despite Mayor David Miller's vow Toronto will never burn garbage."

I also heard of Canadian garbage being shipped overseas and to me that just seems wasteful.

Also as for the government selling its recyclables to other companies-do they even monitor what happens to the items after that?

I guess this is what happens when you want no more garbage dumps in canada-you have to send the garbage somewhere else...not that it is a great solution either...

Really shocked to lear this:

"Toronto's annual output of 120,000 tons of organics has created a mad scramble for processors. In each of 2007 and 2008, the city shipped 1,000 truckloads to Quebec. By the time the green bin waste arrived, locked inside plastic bags the city wants residents to use, it was sometimes so rotten it went straight to landfill, says Quebec's environment ministry."

[mart242]

very true

Most people i know throw flyers away, i know I used to do this


Even if you throw them in the recycling bin, they don't always get recycled. If the paper / cardboard is picked up on a rainy day (and is soaked), to the landfill it goes..