Interlocking Front Entrance +Walkway BUT Downspout inbetween? (PIC Inside)

[DealGiver]

Hi guys.
We are in the middle of getting our interlocking project done (front walkway, landing) by a contractor but we came across this issue which I wanted to get some opinions or advice if possible

We bought our place couple of years ago and this wasn't an issue back in 07, after couple of winters the pipe from the downspout came up as you can see the photo and its literally causing the patio stone to become un-even.

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3470/pics005bac.th.jpg (http://img5.imageshack.us/i/pics005bac.jpg/)

My Q is what are our choices and what we should do to properly address this issue?

Thanks

edit: option: (1) we were thinking of removing the pipe underneath and connect an L shaped pvc pipe to let the rain water fall on our driveway (but this may be an eyesore)

option (2) we can dig and hide the pipe but we see some houses around our area and even if they've done interlocking front, the pipe seems to come up again.

[CSK'sMom]

That looks like a pretty bad DIY solution by someone who didn't know how to deal with the situation. To deal with it properly it shouldn't be solid plastic pipe like that. It should have been sock covered weeping tile buried down 3-4 feet deep (below the frost line). There then is a fitting for the weeping tile to connect the downspout into. If you have the room and want to go even further you could run the weeping tile into a french drain.

[CaptSmethwick]

That looks like a pretty bad DIY solution by someone who didn't know how to deal with the situation. To deal with it properly it shouldn't be solid plastic pipe like that. It should have been sock covered weeping tile buried down 3-4 feet deep (below the frost line). There then is a fitting for the weeping tile to connect the downspout into. If you have the room and want to go even further you could run the weeping tile into a french drain.

+1

I've done this several times. The fittings are sold at real landscaping places and even at HD. I've done a French drain once - and it worked out just fine.

I do not quarrel with the depth recommendation but have never gone deeper than 2' and, over a decade, have never had trouble here in Ottawa. I suspect it's because there's not much water flowing in the tiles in the winter...

[DealGiver]

That looks like a pretty bad DIY solution by someone who didn't know how to deal with the situation. To deal with it properly it shouldn't be solid plastic pipe like that. It should have been sock covered weeping tile buried down 3-4 feet deep (below the frost line). There then is a fitting for the weeping tile to connect the downspout into. If you have the room and want to go even further you could run the weeping tile into a french drain.

@CSK: Yeah, I inquired and found out it was our seller who had this job done this way not the builder, but again at that time we didn't even notice this occuring nor did the inspector bring this up.

I'm assuming I gotta call a plumbing pro who can get this sorted out? The house across from me had the same problem and they're running the pipe straight through the grass beside their driveway...

[CSK'sMom]

You can do it yourself and if your contractor is worth his weight he can do it as well. It's pretty simple, you can buy everything at HD or the like. Basically all you do is dig a trench, put some gravel in the bottom, lay the weeping tile, put some more stone over it and fill the rest of the trench with dirt.

Capt, ours under our driveway is probably not even 2 feet down. We couldn't get it any further down without bringing in machinery of some sort to dig the trench as it's a 20 year old gravel driveway. Needless to say it's well compacted. We've always been told that if possible it should be below the frost line so that is doesn't freeze up during a thaw in the winter or create a wet, swampy area during heavy rains in the warmer months. Ours in our driveway can occasionally seep to the surface in heavy rains at the end of the weeping tile but on the driveway it's not an issue for us.

[CaptSmethwick]

You can do it yourself and if your contractor is worth his weight he can do it as well. It's pretty simple, you can buy everything at HD or the like. Basically all you do is dig a trench, put some gravel in the bottom, lay the weeping tile, put some more stone over it and fill the rest of the trench with dirt.

+1

This really is an easy job - it's even better if you can run your weeping tile to an area where stormwater can drain away without causing problems. Also, remember to call before you dig!

Capt, ours under our driveway is probably not even 2 feet down. We couldn't get it any further down without bringing in machinery of some sort to dig the trench as it's a 20 year old gravel driveway. Needless to say it's well compacted. We've always been told that if possible it should be below the frost line so that is doesn't freeze up during a thaw in the winter or create a wet, swampy area during heavy rains in the warmer months. Ours in our driveway can occasionally seep to the surface in heavy rains at the end of the weeping tile but on the driveway it's not an issue for us.

Fair enough - if you can go deeper, you absolutely should. Especially if you're going under a driveway as that area wouldn't be "insulated" by a snow cover - in some spring conditions, you could have a mess.

[Si98]

Why can't you just let the water run off your future walkway and onto the grass. Isn't that the simplest solution?

[DealGiver]

Why can't you just let the water run off your future walkway and onto the grass. Isn't that the simplest solution?

Yes - Okay,good question, my contractor actually suggested taking the entire pipe out from under the ground and where the downspout meets the pvc joint, attach a extension so the water falls on the interlocking landing/entrance.

Problem is and I heard that overtime, this may cause algi buildup or get stained unless I properly wash it every year and seal it (which I'm sure I will do every 2 years)

Yes, this sound liks an easy and simple idea to go with. Good Q Si98...I almost forgot about this option

[synaptech]

Yes - Okay,good question, my contractor actually suggested taking the entire pipe out from under the ground and where the downspout meets the pvc joint, attach a extension so the water falls on the interlocking landing/entrance.

Problem is and I heard that overtime, this may cause algi buildup or get stained unless I properly wash it every year and seal it (which I'm sure I will do every 2 years)

Yes, this sound liks an easy and simple idea to go with. Good Q Si98...I almost forgot about this option
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you may also find that the water from the spout erodes the foundation of the interlock etc. I personally would try to get the water as far away from the house as possible. I'm guessing there was a reason the previous owner went to that extent to remove the water.

from your option 1 - you could do this, but your driveway becomes a skating rink in winter.

from your option 2 - looks like you have a slope at the side that would be ideal for the pipe to easily discharge. Perhaps the neighbour's (and yours) have heaved due to being blocked/frozen?

[DealGiver]

you may also find that the water from the spout erodes the foundation of the interlock etc. I personally would try to get the water as far away from the house as possible. I'm guessing there was a reason the previous owner went to that extent to remove the water.

from your option 1 - you could do this, but your driveway becomes a skating rink in winter.

from your option 2 - looks like you have a slope at the side that would be ideal for the pipe to easily discharge. Perhaps the neighbour's (and yours) have heaved due to being blocked/frozen?

Hi synaptech, yes, that is my biggest concern gradually eroding the interlocking which I wouldn't want.

Option 1 - in winter will be a sure problem unless we enter the house from the interlocked walkway and not from the driveway as we do now!

Option 2 - yes we actually do have a slope - may be digging deeper and hiding the pipe and put some compactingover would work......

Any other advice/ideas people :|

[CSK'sMom]

Why can't you just let the water run off your future walkway and onto the grass. Isn't that the simplest solution?

Yes - Okay,good question, my contractor actually suggested taking the entire pipe out from under the ground and where the downspout meets the pvc joint, attach a extension so the water falls on the interlocking landing/entrance.

Problem is and I heard that overtime, this may cause algi buildup or get stained unless I properly wash it every year and seal it (which I'm sure I will do every 2 years)

Yes, this sound liks an easy and simple idea to go with. Good Q Si98...I almost forgot about this option

I'll reply to both of these at the same time. If you don't divert the downspout and let it run over the sidewalk you'll end up with a skating rink in the winter. Any sun that melts snow from the roof will result in water and ice on the sidewalk and more often than not, black ice. Salt and interlock don't mix well either. And more likely than not, you'll end up with major heaving due to the saturation of the base under the interlock.

I agree with synaptech, ideally you want the water as far away from your foundation as possible. If that corner is a garage as I suspect I am wondering if that DIY fix was due to flooding the garage during heavy rain and melts as well as ice on the sidewalk. In our case we have a downspout on each corner of the garage and we essentially ended up with a flooded garage from under the door during melts and heavy rains. The water would pool in front of the garage and seep under the door.

[mork]

You've got my worried. I did an interlock patio and have a 4" PVC running clear under it for a good distance. I buried it 12 to 16 inches down (undewr base gravel).. I sure hope I am not dealing with any major heaving in the near future.

I have seen this method (solid PVC) used quite a bit in my area so I went with it without too much concern.

[DealGiver]

You've got my worried. I did an interlock patio and have a 4" PVC running clear under it for a good distance. I buried it 12 to 16 inches down (undewr base gravel).. I sure hope I am not dealing with any major heaving in the near future.

I have seen this method (solid PVC) used quite a bit in my area so I went with it without too much concern.

Hi mork: well I hope you don't get this mess....but my neighbor has the same pvc running under his interlocked walkway and landing (say 2 year old) and you can see the interlocked warping up in style as if the PVC/pipe is wanthing to come up just like in my situation..

that is why I'm trying to get opinions from all here and I beleive its a major issue specially in my area :(

[CSK'sMom]

Ouch Mork. I can tell you what our neighbors are now dealing with. They hired so called concrete guys to add sidewalks to either side of their asphalt driveway right down to the curb. One side goes up the side of the garage to the backyard and the other to the front door. At the 2 front corners of the garage are downspouts. Their glorified handymen layed 4 inch pvc pipes about 12 inches down under the stone base and concrete and the ends open near the curb. It was the first winter last year. It froze and looks like it cracked the pipes about 2 feet from the corner of the garage which resulted in the concrete cracking and heaving in both spots. The concrete sidewalks were cut at regular intervals as well so that's not the issue. They asked us how to fix it after their handymen won't return their calls and we just shook our heads and said there really isn't much to be done other than rip it all out now.

[mork]

hmmm. So what is causing these PVC pipes to heave up? They are full of water when they freeze? Mine is very sloped and won't ever be filled with water.

or is it simply because it is a solid/rigid and the heaving earth beneath it pushes it up where in other areas compact as earth beneath it heaves?

[DealGiver]

hmmm. So what is causing these PVC pipes to heave up? They are full of water when they freeze? Mine is very sloped and won't ever be filled with water.

or is it simply because it is a solid/rigid and the heaving earth beneath it pushes it up where in other areas compact as earth beneath it heaves?

Yeah I'm not even sure mork why it heaves up, honestly I think I may need to call in a pro just to look at it before any work can begin, I don't want a ban aid solution here for now, next thing you know in 2years its heaving back up?

[teoconca]

Hi mork: well I hope you don't get this mess....but my neighbor has the same pvc running under his interlocked walkway and landing (say 2 year old) and you can see the interlocked warping up in style as if the PVC/pipe is wanthing to come up just like in my situation..

that is why I'm trying to get opinions from all here and I beleive its a major issue specially in my area :(

I did that by joining 2 down spouts into the V shape PCV pipe then dig a deep path for it. After 1 winter, I had to remove it because during winter time the water iced up and pushed the PCV pipe out of place. It also looked very crappy. I put down spouts back to have water slope away. I think you should do the same.

[CSK'sMom]

hmmm. So what is causing these PVC pipes to heave up? They are full of water when they freeze? Mine is very sloped and won't ever be filled with water.

or is it simply because it is a solid/rigid and the heaving earth beneath it pushes it up where in other areas compact as earth beneath it heaves?

It can be a combo of both. Sloped or not you will still get frozen water in it in the winter. Typically you'll get a slow trickle in the winter on sunny days if you have snow on your roof. That's all well and great but the temps drop fast as the sun goes down and the water freezes. A couple of days of that and the pipe can become clogged with ice. As the ice freezes it expands and cracks the pipe. Heave can be a real problem if we have a really wet fall late in the season. The ground becomes saturated with water and as it freezes, again it expands and it heaves.

Weeping tile, because it's perforated solves the winter freeze issue. As the slow trickle of water makes it's way through the pipe it kind of drips out along the whole length. You never end up with a all the water in one place or running out the end.

[mork]

I hope the OP doesn't mind me thread-jacking a bit and talking about my situation as well. :)

I hadn't thought about the slow trickle on sunny/warm winter days. You are right, I could see it filling with ice. I'll have to remember to disconnect the spout from the PVC when winter arrives and cap it off for the winter I guess.

In this picture, you can see both ends of my PVC (spout was not connected when picture was taken). It runs close to 16 feet.
http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp3/mork571/yard/patio03.jpg
The picture is a little deceptive. I brought it up out of the ground at the end, but even that exit point is lower in elevation than the ground at the house.

I've got a about 2-3 feet of space from the entry to the edge of the patio. I could dig there and drill holes all over the first couple of feet of pipe pretty easily to allow for some slow drainage as well (same deal on the last couple of feet of it past the other edge of the patio). does anyone think doing that would accomplish any good?

While it was a DIY job, there was a pro working in the area that came over while I was doing it and gave me a pat on the back for the PVC.. "good job, most people wouldn't have thought to put it in" sort of comment.

[jamzbe]

for the walkway as long as it's not too long why don't you get a down spout add-on that will roll out when there's rain and coil up when there isn't. That's what I will be doing once I get my new eaves installed.

http://www.rainguardusa.com/faqs.html

[CaptSmethwick]

There are a lot of solutions to this problem but the absolutely best is weeping tile with the correct downspout fitting. Allowing the downspout to simply spill out where it ends is bad because (a) all water should be diverted away from the foundation and (b) the water will wash out the stonedust between the pavers and cause heaving in that area as the water soaks into the crush stone underneath the pavers and expands.

Mork - I cannot predict if you're going to have problems in Saskatoon and in that yard. If the downspout's gutter is not on a west-facing area roof, you may never get the problem that CSK's Mom describes (winter thaw/freeze). But, frankly, I agree with her cautions on this.

If you stay with the pipe you now have, the key will be to ensure that the outflow end actually goes somewhere where it will be less likely to freeze. But, even at that, you can get an ice jam earlier up the pipe as winter roof melt isn't that warm - so, it doesn't take much for it to re-freeze. When that water hits the cold PVC pipe (remember, it's underground, so not as easily warmed by the winter's sun), it will freeze. Even if it doesn't, if the end of your pipe freezes up early enough in the winter, it'll cause later thaws to leave water in your pipe and, given that it's not that deep, a crack will be inevitable. Once it cracks, the water from your roof will end up under your patio - exactly what you were trying to avoid.

Perhaps the thing to do would be to install a river stone bed in one corner of your yard - you could tuck a modest french drain under that. If you do, you might want to to connect the current end of your PVC pipe to a weeping tile and have the weeping tile carry on to the river stone bed.

Another option would be to insert a drain line heating cable - they're low wattage (between 3 and 6 watts). Even plugged in constantly for 4 months of the year, they'd use about as much electricity as a 100 watt bulb left on for 3 days. If you go this route, you're obviously looking at one that runs inside your pipe.

A third option would be to build in a winter bypass - essentially, diverting winter run-off into a temporary surface pipe and capping your buried pipe.

If I was at a point in a project that you are now, I would stick with your existing pipe and try one of the above solutions.

Finally, be sure that you animal-proof the ends of your pipe - a dead groundhog makes as good a blockage as an ice jam... :rolleyes:

[markethound80]

You guys all have me worried. I just finished installed a weeping tile (4 inch non perf pipe) at the side of my house for myself and my neighbour. 3 downspounts to be exact and I ran 1 pipe for my neighbour and 1 for me using a "Y" to connect my 2 pipes away from the foundation. I ran both pipes to the grass and I will bury it under the grass and let the water go out at that point. I did this to avoid water draining onto my interlock driveway and sider of house walkway. My ternches are 12 -14 inches deep... Am I going to have a problem with the pipe heaving up in the winter and killing my interlock/ If it's compacted really well should this be an issue????

[DealGiver]

for the walkway as long as it's not too long why don't you get a down spout add-on that will roll out when there's rain and coil up when there isn't. That's what I will be doing once I get my new eaves installed.

http://www.rainguardusa.com/faqs.html

I thought I'd post an update to my situation.

jamzbe: You know my contractor apparently recommended me this exact product which is all good but what do you do come winter? With the amount of snow we get, this thing won't even roll it will be frozen.

CSK'smom: I had one more contractor come down and say the same that if I use weeping tile covered with sock with atleast 3' down, it shouldn't heave up? Right now, the end of the pve pipe is open and water puddles up but since weeping tile is burried deep down under, the water will simple disperse from pours underneath?

Challenge is digging the 3' 3.5' trench and will cost me a lot to get this done.

**My other last resort is to just remove the pipe and remove that connector and use an downspout elbow or L shape connector and let water fall on driveway since it has a slope. If I can get a beige color connector it won't look that bad ?