Person parking in disabled parking who is not disabled

[danfromwaterloo]

What would you guys do in this case?

I was walking to my GO train this morning and I saw a woman pull up in a handicap parking spot, toss a handicap permit on her dash, and walk onto the platform with nary a limp.

It infuriates me because there actually are disabled people who use our station and someone like her is using one of their spots - potentially making a real handicap person walk a mile.

I have her licence plate and make/model - I tried calling the City, the Ministry, and the Police to no avail. Who can I contact to get this woman ticketed? People selfishly abusing the system deserve to be nailed with a sizable ticket.

[CSK'sMom]

Not all handicaps are visible Dan. You don't really believe that they are do you? If she has a permit she's entitled to park there if the permit is hers.

[rfdrfd]

There are many reasons how someone can get a disabled parking permit.

She may be picking up someone that is disabled (her dad, mom).
Or she may have back problems that you cannot see.


Yes, tons of ppl mis-use it. I've seen BMW's, Porsches with handicap parking permits. Then the typical BMW driver steps out, young, Mr. Cool, bling bling neclaces, sunglasses, tight polo shirt. Handicapped? Maybe in style.

[deltone]

Some people may have a heart condition which allows them to have the permit. There could be MANY things that the person has which would entitle her to hold the permit. Also, (although I doubt it) what if she was parked there and was going to get someone with a disability? My stepfather is 94 and has a permit. Sometimes I take him to the doctor or I go to pick him up and if I don't park in the handicapped spot, and then go in to get him, he'll have to walk too far, so the truth is, not everything is as it appears.

That being said, anyone who uses the permit incorrectly is a creep.

[rfdrfd]

What would you guys do in this case?

I was walking to my GO train this morning and I saw a woman pull up in a handicap parking spot, toss a handicap permit on her dash, and walk onto the platform with nary a limp.

It infuriates me because there actually are disabled people who use our station and someone like her is using one of their spots - potentially making a real handicap person walk a mile.

I have her licence plate and make/model - I tried calling the City, the Ministry, and the Police to no avail. Who can I contact to get this woman ticketed? People selfishly abusing the system deserve to be nailed with a sizable ticket.


But I do agree with you. I hate it when ppl abuse it. Maybe someday, you can go work for the Govern. offices that issue these. Or the dept. that investigates false claims. Go help fix the system. And truly allow handicapped ppl to use these spots and penalize those that copy, steal these permits and illegally use them.

Just by looking, one cannot prove that that lady is not entitled to her parking permit. Its basically a fraud charge = courts = lawyers = time. And who's going to pay for all this? It can't be started just because a citizen has a suspicion that this lady is not handicapped.

[Krakilin0405]

That being said, there are people who abuses the system... I remember my friend borrowed her grandma's car with the permit, so that she can get a parking spot at a shopping mall during boxing day...



.

[solarflare600]

will i get flamed if i say OP needs better things to do...?

[shannn]

I've asked this before but didn't get an answer, so I'll ask it here:

Is it true that if you are under 5 feet tall, you are eligible to apply for a disability parking pass? My friend told me you could, but I am skeptical of this

[ever1221]

oh man, if only you know how many people use our tax money and claim to be disabled...in Hamilton if you take the barton bus you'd be surprised at how many people sit on wheel chairs and are not disabled...there are alot of people scamming our gov, who claim that they cannot work and are taxi drivers....its sad really sad

[nishy]

Not all disabilities are visible. She might have a heart condition, repiratory condition, just to name a few, which warrant her from walking for long distance.

Move on.

narcolepsy strikes again!

lol joking

on a more serious note, u CAN do something IF the name on the permit is not registered to her vehicle. maybe even if its not in her name. so u shoudla checked for that.

[ever1221]

You need to know "visible disabilities" is not the only thing that warrants someone use of a chair.

I once took that barton bus, and there was this guy on wheel chair waiting, the bus driver went to back and leaned the bus but she didnt push him, he looked disabled, so people got irritated as to why bus driver didnt push him (she knows something I guess) anyways this guy got pissed he spit as bus driver pass by him...anyways when he got to his destination, the driver was rude to him so this guy got pissed off he stood up and pushed his wheel chair out of the bus and started walking normaly, everybody in bus was shocked....

and bus driver knew this guy was acting all along.

[tyfriend]

op has too much time on his hands.

if she has a permit, she is legally entitled to park there.

[shannn]

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/app.shtml

Visual acuity is 20/200 or poorer in the better eye with or without corrective lenses or whose greatest diameter of the field of vision in both eyes is 20 degrees or less.

Interesting. My friend told me he could get a pass because he was "blind." Guess he wasn't joking :lol:
Now I just have to wait for him to get his liscence. I've been waiting like...6 years so far :mad: lol

[nishy]

will i get flamed if i say OP needs better things to do...?

lol yeah, just a tad.

oh man, if only you know how many people use our tax money and claim to be disabled...in Hamilton if you take the barton bus you'd be surprised at how many people sit on wheel chairs and are not disabled...there are alot of people scamming our gov, who claim that they cannot work and are taxi drivers....its sad really sad

agreed there i know ppl who abused or r still abusing the system

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/app.shtml
A permit is register to a person's name rather than a vehicle. A by-passer certainly have no right to look at their permit as there are privacy information involved. If OP really "concern" about some people abusing it, then he could call the local parking enforecement to complain.



agreed

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/app.shtml
I don't think she knows anything. Bus drivers are not suppose to push him or assist anyone with their mibility device by any means because they weren't trained and there are liabilities issues involved. Many people who uses a wheelchair could walk, but just the matter of distance.

agreed on the last sentence but imo ur argument is generally flawed under the pretense that everyone who benefits from their disabled status is actually disabled. i know of a few cases where that is not so.
i am not saying that EVERYONE is pretending, im saying that some people are. and they cast a shadow on the rest. BTW, im the kind of person that gets up for older people on the TTC, so dont think im a totall poop-head
and Hamilton is just jokes. that place scares me >.>

[nishy]

Just like anything else there are always people who abuse it. However, you could not visually judge whether or not someone has a disabilities.

cant argue there ^.^

[danfromwaterloo]

More on what I saw:

-she's done it a few times
-there was absolutely no signs of any kind that there was any physical aliments - no limp, no struggle. She beat me down the stairs so she's in as good or better shape than me.
-agreed that not all disabilities are visible, but it looked fishy

And as to the point of me needing something better to do, I figure it's my civic duty to report abuses of the system. If my grandmother needed to use the spot and some freeloader used it, I would hope someone would report them. In my mind its the same thing as turning a blind eye to vandalism or a hit and run. If we all reported this stuff maybe scammers would stop. And if I'm wrong about the person, nothing will come of it.

[nishy]

more on what i saw:
In my mind its the same thing as turning a blind eye to vandalism or a hit and run. If we all reported this stuff maybe scammers would stop. And if i'm wrong about the person, nothing will come of it.

high five citizen dan!

[danfromwaterloo]

Now that I think about it:

Wouldn't a disabled person take the elevator instead of the stairs?

[thendless]

My sisters' in laws have a permit and I was asking her about it. Anyways just because she has the permit doesn't mean the driver herself has a disability, it can simply be they are driving a person who has a disability (my sister's mother in law uses it to drive her husband around, however she has no health problems). Whether or not she is legally allowed to use it if the disabled person is with her or not is the real question... If it is illegal you can slap her in the face for us next time Dan

[danfromwaterloo]

My sisters' in laws have a permit and I was asking her about it. Anyways just because she has the permit doesn't mean the driver herself has a disability, it can simply be they are driving a person who has a disability (my sister's mother in law uses it to drive her husband around, however she has no health problems). Whether or not she is legally allowed to use it if the disabled person is with her or not is the real question... If it is illegal you can slap her in the face for us next time Dan

In my mind if a disabled person is in the car, it's alright. If there isn't it's not. This person was alone and got on a train to Toronto. It was apparent she was not picking anybody up.

[monty613]

I've seen BMW's, Porsches with handicap parking permits.

...because people with disabilities can't drive German cars? :rolleyes:

[asdfvcx]

More on what I saw:

-she's done it a few times
-there was absolutely no signs of any kind that there was any physical aliments - no limp, no struggle. She beat me down the stairs so she's in as good or better shape than me.
-agreed that not all disabilities are visible, but it looked fishy

As was already mentioned, class III heart failure qualifies as a disability. My brother has class II (slightly healthier than class III). He walks quite a bit to keep healthy, can easily go down stairs and can climb one or two flights without any noticeable distress.

I would expect someone with class III should be able to walk a short distance and go down stairs without any problems. But they still have a serious health condition.

[wallop]

Not all handicaps are visible Dan. You don't really believe that they are do you? If she has a permit she's entitled to park there if the permit is hers.

I agree with mom.

[Frankie3s]

Happens all the time and everywhere. Too many people are fraudulently using them.

Including making their own...

Phoney parking permits rampant, advocate says,
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2008/10/29/fake-parking-permits.html

[Dustbunny]

If you are suspecting abuse, report her. There are two parts to those permits. One is the visible display which can be used in any vehicle, but the person to whom it was issued also has to carry the license for it (generally part of their driver's license if they have one). So just because someone shows the visible permit, doesn't mean they are entitled to use it, the person who is disabled must be with them.

So, when I used to drive my mom around I could use the permit because if we were challenged by the police, she had the license with her. I could pick her up or drop her off, but if I parked in a handicapped spot and didn't have her with me, I could be fined.

[TapemanPL]

More on what I saw:

-she's done it a few times
-there was absolutely no signs of any kind that there was any physical aliments - no limp, no struggle. She beat me down the stairs so she's in as good or better shape than me.
-agreed that not all disabilities are visible, but it looked fishy

And as to the point of me needing something better to do, I figure it's my civic duty to report abuses of the system. If my grandmother needed to use the spot and some freeloader used it, I would hope someone would report them. In my mind its the same thing as turning a blind eye to vandalism or a hit and run. If we all reported this stuff maybe scammers would stop. And if I'm wrong about the person, nothing will come of it.

again some disabilities are not visible to the eye. my friend has a permit and he has a bone problem. he is normal like all of us but by doctors recommendation he is not to walk a lot in a day because it is harmful. physically he is like any other person his age, and can do anything physical that he likes, but over time it may be harmful to him.

[at1212b]

I think we should read the actual rule on how to get a disabled permit before commenting.

Sure, there are disabilities that cannot be seen which could have been the case here. But I would guess that most cases are physical ailments (it was based on some kind of general rule, ie. cannot walk more then x meters in under x seconds) and I guess the fact that the person threw the handicap sticker on the das (I thought most just leave it on the dash) added to the effect, plus, the appearance of someone going to work on the GO vs picking someone up.

[DaVibe]

You realize that there's people that actually investigate the handicap-sticker crime FOR A LIVING, right?
So let them take care of it.

I think you're jealous OP, sorry.

[CSK'sMom]

Well it's nice that you are so concerned about fraudulent use Dan but you know what... it's absolutely none of your business. Do you have any idea how utterly annoying people like you are to those who actually qualify for and use handicap permits? I do not have to justify my private, medical history to you because you think something is "fishy". Would it make you feel any better to know that I qualify for one and could probably outrun you to the GO station as well. On a good day there isn't a limp in sight or a struggle. On a bad day you won't see me because I'll probably be bed bound or at the very least it may take me an hr to actually get out of bed in the morning. Do my good days mean I don't need one? What about my bad days? Are those the only days I'm allowed to go out according to your logic?

[discostupid]

solution:

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/2858/phony.gif

[Canada_7]

Anyone remember a similar thread from a few months ago (this isn't targetted at OP, I'm just bringing up some stuff from that thread)? I remember some poster (who's now banned :) ) tried to suggest that every single disability was well deserved by the person who had it and that he was superior compared to those with disabilities or something along those lines :lol: . He went on hating handicapped parking spots and the like :lol: .

I'll see if I'm able to find that thread.

[Flyer]

One of my classmates had the parking sticker. He cannot stand/walk too long without extreme backpain. Granted, he was also in his late fourties or fifties...

[danfromwaterloo]

Well it's nice that you are so concerned about fraudulent use Dan but you know what... it's absolutely none of your business. Do you have any idea how utterly annoying people like you are to those who actually qualify for and use handicap permits? I do not have to justify my private, medical history to you because you think something is "fishy". Would it make you feel any better to know that I qualify for one and could probably outrun you to the GO station as well. On a good day there isn't a limp in sight or a struggle. On a bad day you won't see me because I'll probably be bed bound or at the very least it may take me an hr to actually get out of bed in the morning. Do my good days mean I don't need one? What about my bad days? Are those the only days I'm allowed to go out according to your logic?

Yes. If you can run down the stairs on your good days, you shouldn't use the permit. On the bad days, by all means.

[asdfvcx]

Yes. If you can run down the stairs on your good days, you shouldn't use the permit. On the bad days, by all means.
And it never occurred to you that the person may be feeling fine in the morning, but feeling like crap in the afternoon? Being able to run down a single flight of stairs is not the standard test for a disability.

[hightech]

There are many reasons how someone can get a disabled parking permit.

She may be picking up someone that is disabled (her dad, mom).
Or she may have back problems that you cannot see.


Yes, tons of ppl mis-use it. I've seen BMW's, Porsches with handicap parking permits. Then the typical BMW driver steps out, young, Mr. Cool, bling bling neclaces, sunglasses, tight polo shirt. Handicapped? Maybe in style.

Just because someone has fancy cars, glasses, etc. does not mean that he is a crook. To get a permit requires doctors information. Now if the doctor is corrupt, that is different story.

[Chr1s]

I could see where he came from and I don't think it's entirely none of his business. I mean, if you see someone try to break into your neighbour's house (which is literally none of your business), you would of call the cops too right? As a legit permit holder, would you rather have a parking enforcement officer spend 5 minutes of your time to validate your permit or would you rather not being able to find a parking spot because of other fraudulent users?

You are comparing break and entering, property damage and theft, to taking up an improper parking spot by using a questionable permit? :rolleyes:

Yes. If you can run down the stairs on your good days, you shouldn't use the permit. On the bad days, by all means.

Dan, if you are THAT passionate about it, why not become a bylaw officer? Are you by chance a medical doctor who can make diagnosis at a distance? Can you in good faith be making legal determinations of when and where people can use these permits? I can appreciate you being a concerned citizen, but you could have befriended the woman and asked her outright yourself if you in fact were THAT concerned. Her answer might have surprised you. Of course, it is easier to jump to conclusions, and be judge, jury and executioner.

If there is abuse, a bylaw officers will be by eventually tag them. They always are. Though, come to think about it, bylaw officers may be busy tagging citizens for dumping garbage during this unlawful garbage strike. They also want YOU to call in any potential illegal dumpers, so maybe you can also be on the look out for those individuals and snitch on them instead, as they are taking action in that regard. :lol:

[AmberMoon]

I'm a perfect example of someone who is disabled but looking at me you would never know. I also have a handicap sticker and in order to get it, my physician had to fill out paperwork , its not like i could just walk into the license place and get one.


Just because you can not see someones disability does not mean they aren't. They have a sticker and as long as that sticker is/was in her name then she is within her rights to park there for whatever reasons.

Dont be so hasty to draw a conclusion to something you know nothing about.

[Mayoo]

flat their tire .. did it like 5times :)

[danfromwaterloo]

Dan, if you are THAT passionate about it, why not become a bylaw officer? Are you by chance a medical doctor who can make diagnosis at a distance? Can you in good faith be making legal determinations of when and where people can use these permits? I can appreciate you being a concerned citizen, but you could have befriended the woman and asked her outright yourself if you in fact were THAT concerned. Her answer might have surprised you. Of course, it is easier to jump to conclusions, and be judge, jury and executioner.

If there is abuse, a bylaw officers will be by eventually tag them. They always are. Though, come to think about it, bylaw officers may be busy tagging citizens for dumping garbage during this unlawful garbage strike. They also want YOU to call in any potential illegal dumpers, so maybe you can also be on the look out for those individuals and snitch on them instead, as they are taking action in that regard. :lol:

Yes, I'm in full acknowledgement that there are some handicaps that are hard to see. And no, I'm no doctor, and I have no magical ability to diagnose people through sight. I just hate scammers. Something about what I saw wreaked of scamming.

I don't believe though that I should disregard what I saw because it had nothing to do with me. If I saw someone break into a house that wasn't mine, should I do nothing? After all, that has nothing to do with me.

If I don't act when I see something wrong, I have no basis to complain when something wrong happens to me.

[danfromwaterloo]

flat their tire .. did it like 5times :)

Then I'm worse than them.

[pkguy]

The bottom line is is that it really is none of your business. You are not the inspector of handicap parking stickers so leave that work up to them. I'm perfectly healthy yet my sister who does not even drive has severe heart disease and RA and she has a handicap parking sticker for use whenever someone like me is chauffering her around. If you came up to me and asked why I was parking in a handicap spot I'd tell you to mind your own f'ing business. It doesn't matter if there are some people abusing it, it still none of your business or mine. Yes I've been chauffering her around and found all the handicapped spots full myself, I don't know whether they're all legit or not but I'd never ever go up to someone who I thought was faking it and question them. Stop being a busybody and find something else to pick at.

[splitsec]

I think that it is fine for him to point it out to a bylaw officer. They can look into it and determine if the use is appropriate. I don't think he should approach the woman (or worse flatten their tire!).

If they do have a disability then it is more appropriate to be addressed by the bylaw officer, not confronted by every Tom, Dick and Harry that happens to think they are scamming.

[Chr1s]

Why not? The fine is the same. You have any idea how many times we had to head home because there were no handicapped parking spots available in a parking lot? While I believe not every disability is visible, but I do believe there are Joe Blow out there who is using his mom's permit while not transporting her so he could find a parking spot.

The fine and/or penalty is not the same. Take a look at the Criminal Code of Canada vs. a by-law infraction based on the Municipality Act or the City of Toronto Act. Definitely not the same thing.

Sorry to hear about your trouble finding a spot when needing one as a handicapped individual. Perhaps during those times, you can park in another spot, that may be unreserved yet close to the door, and have a lawful excuse as to why you did so as long as you have your permit visible?

Yes, I'm in full acknowledgement that there are some handicaps that are hard to see. And no, I'm no doctor, and I have no magical ability to diagnose people through sight. I just hate scammers. Something about what I saw wreaked of scamming.

I don't believe though that I should disregard what I saw because it had nothing to do with me. If I saw someone break into a house that wasn't mine, should I do nothing? After all, that has nothing to do with me.

If I don't act when I see something wrong, I have no basis to complain when something wrong happens to me.

I nominate you for neighbourhood watch. :cheesygri
Distinguish well between crime committed pursuant to the CCC and a by-law infraction.

Just my humble opinion.

[MrDisco]

What would you guys do in this case?


I would mind my own business.

[shoprider]

sometimes they had an injury and they have the parking pass for a set length of time so when you saw the lady, she might have just been at the tail end of recovery and almost completely better. Might as well use it if you have it.

what pisses me off is handicapped people (and homeless people) who think the rest of the world owes them something because they got ripped off in life. Like they feel the rest of the world is obligated to cater to them.

phhhhhhssssssaw! get a life.

[rfdrfd]

Just because someone has fancy cars, glasses, etc. does not mean that he is a crook. To get a permit requires doctors information. Now if the doctor is corrupt, that is different story.

Just that we generally do not associate handicap permit users come out of a BMW or Porsche. If we poll all the permit owners, I bet the majority do not drive expensive cars.

[freeonboard]

I once took that barton bus, and there was this guy on wheel chair waiting, the bus driver went to back and leaned the bus but she didnt push him, he looked disabled, so people got irritated as to why bus driver didnt push him (she knows something I guess) anyways this guy got pissed he spit as bus driver pass by him...anyways when he got to his destination, the driver was rude to him so this guy got pissed off he stood up and pushed his wheel chair out of the bus and started walking normaly, everybody in bus was shocked....

and bus driver knew this guy was acting all along.


Most disabled are fakes. those damn disabled parking spaces are empty 99 percent of the time. as a society, we provide overwhelming incentive for people to fake being disabled.

[freeonboard]

Yes. If you can run down the stairs on your good days, you shouldn't use the permit. On the bad days, by all means.

agreed. maybe a nail in the tires might teach these cheaters a lesson.

[minib26]

WOW. I'm completely surprised by the lack of sensitivity here.

from the MTO website (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/app.shtml):

Note - APP = Accessible Parking Permit

Who is eligible for an APP?

To qualify for an APP, the individual must be certified by an APP program recognized health practitioner as having one or more of the following conditions:

* Cannot walk without assistance of another person or a brace, cane, crutch, a lower limb prosthetic device or similar assistive device or who requires the assistance of a wheelchair.
* Suffers from lung disease to such an extent that forced expiratory volume in one second is less than one litre.
* Portable oxygen is a medical necessity.
* Cardiovascular disease impairment classified as Class III or Class IV to standards accepted by the American Heart Association or Class III or IV according to the Canadian Cardiovascular Standard.
* Severely limited in the ability to walk due to an arthritic, neurological, musculoskeletal or orthopaedic condition.
* Visual acuity is 20/200 or poorer in the better eye with or without corrective lenses or whose greatest diameter of the field of vision in both eyes is 20 degrees or less.
* Condition(s) or functional impairment that severely limits his or her mobility.

While most of these requirements are related to some type of physical disability, you'll note (in bold) some of them may not be so easily discernible.

[Cheap Cat]

Most disabled are fakes. those damn disabled parking spaces are empty 99 percent of the time. as a society, we provide overwhelming incentive for people to fake being disabled.

I can't believe how ignorant your post is. Do you know anything about disabilities?? Many people refer to non-disabled people as not yet disabled because most people will suffer from a disability at some point in their lives. Be glad it hasn't happened to you yet, well, at least not physically.

Contrary to popular myth, there are no benefits or incentives to being disabled. Even thing is a struggle. Something like a parking permit is to make it a little easier because walking is a struggle. I can tell you that everyone who has one of those permits would gladly give it up and park at the back of the lot to be healthy and be able to walk that distance without struggle. People with disabilities represent the highest group of unemployed people in this country. Many live in poverty which is why you won't see many driving luxury cars. It is not that people with disabilities aren't capable, it is that narrow minded people like you won't give them the opportunity. I can't tell you how much money and how many jobs I have lost out on due to my disability. I already have one positive Human Rights decision against an employer for discriminating against me because of my disability. I have an invisible disability so you would never know to look at me. I also don't have a disabled parking permit.

[time space]

Citizen Dan stands on guard for thee!

Next up, he'll be tripping potential fakers to see how quickly they recover, or riding on their backs to test their lung capacity. Thank God we have such loyal citizens to harass the disabled.

Next up, Citizen Dan will be chasing down Canadians who don't appear to be loyal enough to Canada on Canada Day. Traitors lurk among us!

:eek:

[Peckerwood]

I would mind my own business.
The correct answer

+1

[wallop]

I would mind my own business.

Yes, close you eyes.

[iempwnage]

will i get flamed if i say OP needs better things to do...?

Certainly not.

[jerrysiz]

I guess the fact that the person threw the handicap sticker on the das (I thought most just leave it on the dash) added to the effect, plus, the appearance of someone going to work on the GO vs picking someone up.

My mom has a disabled parking permit due to deteriorating disks and knee reconstruction. She always "throws the sticker on the dash" after she parks because a) she often takes it from her car to my dad's depending on which one they are using, and b) even if she is using her own car the sticker reflects in the windshield if she leaves it on the dash all the time and it distracts her when she is driving. She might appear to be completely able-bodied when she parks her car, leaving busybodies with too much time on thier hands to speculate that she's a scammer and give her dirty looks, but if they waited to see her come back to her car they might see why she needs that spot, after having to move around for a while she is often in quite a lot of pain. She is happy to show her documentation to enforcement officers, and has done so many times, but does not deserve to have to defend herself to (perhaps) well-meaning but ignorant (and often hostile) people on the street. If people think someone is scamming, they should call to report it, the city might send an enforcement officer around to check on it, but you shouldn't presume to know what others are going through because they don't look "disabled enough".

[dingy1]

Alright so the person does not seem disabled in your eyes.
Should they make a scene for you?
Should they limp around for you?
How and why do you feel imposed upon?
Or is it you want to be a vigilante?
Leave the policing to the proper authorities.
End.

[danfromwaterloo]

I should have known better than to ask about ethics on this board.

[Instagator]

I should have known better than to ask about ethics on this board.

Fail.

[gilboman]

I should have known better than to ask about ethics on this board.

your question had nothing to do with ethics? People are just saying just because a person appears "fine" to you, doesn't mean they they are cheating the system or undeserving of the disabled parking permit.

[goobelygoop]

I should have known better than to ask about ethics on this board.


Reading through this thread, I can tell you're like the annoying neighbour who snoops on everyone and is hated by the street. Give it up already and mind your own business.
And it's pretty insulting that you're essentially calling everyone in this thread "unethical". Shame.

[Nikita]

What would you guys do in this case?

I was walking to my GO train this morning and I saw a woman pull up in a handicap parking spot, toss a handicap permit on her dash, and walk onto the platform with nary a limp.

It infuriates me because there actually are disabled people who use our station and someone like her is using one of their spots - potentially making a real handicap person walk a mile.

I have her licence plate and make/model - I tried calling the City, the Ministry, and the Police to no avail. Who can I contact to get this woman ticketed? People selfishly abusing the system deserve to be nailed with a sizable ticket.

Without reading past this post I have only two comments right now.

1. Don't ever assume you know if a person is disabled or not simply by the way they look. Some people have pain issues that you can't see. Some people suffer from pain after walking/shopping/whatever, that's when you can see pain, and it's not pretty if it's someone you care about.

2. If she had a disabled permit, the government has found her to indeed be disabled, so you appear to be assuming you know better than the medical info upon which the issuance of that disability determination was made by the government.

My mom is disabled and non-disabled people who park in handicapped spots piss me off to no end. But I can only make that judgment based on whether they have a handicapped permit or not, surely not by whether or not they look disabled/handicapped.

[CanadianMike]

I would mind my own business.
+1

the ever so simple solution which works for 99% of the threads posted in this section ;)

[Nikita]

will i get flamed if i say OP needs better things to do...?

Maybe, maybe not, but you deserve to. Even though I don't agree with the OP's assumptions about this woman, I highly appreciate his concern for those who really are handicapped and really need those spots.

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/app.shtml



A permit is register to a person's name rather than a vehicle. A by-passer certainly have no right to look at their permit as there are privacy information involved. If OP really "concern" about some people abusing it, then he could call the local parking enforecement to complain.

Huh? No right to look at their permit? Privacy issue? Noooo...there is no expection of privacy when you have a permit or anything else in your window in plain view, so there is no privacy issues here at all.


More on what I saw:

-she's done it a few times
-there was absolutely no signs of any kind that there was any physical aliments - no limp, no struggle. She beat me down the stairs so she's in as good or better shape than me.
-agreed that not all disabilities are visible, but it looked fishy
And as to the point of me needing something better to do, I figure it's my civic duty to report abuses of the system. If my grandmother needed to use the spot and some freeloader used it, I would hope someone would report them. In my mind its the same thing as turning a blind eye to vandalism or a hit and run. If we all reported this stuff maybe scammers would stop. And if I'm wrong about the person, nothing will come of it.

And she probably suffers for those physical actions the next day. My mom has two very serious back conditions. When she's on her pain meds, she can look perfectly pain free (even when she's not) and she can indeed get around a lot better. BUT, too much of that and it's a sure thing she'll be in severe pain the next day, sometimes unable to get out of bed and has to take more pain meds just to function. And she's one of those people who tries to take as few pain pills as possible. And before you or anyone else says something to the effect that 'she shouldn't be doing those things (shopping, walking, taking stairs) on her good days because/if she's going to be in pain the next day, people have every right and IMO responsibility to themselves to maintain as much mobility as they can whenever and wherever they can.


Now that I think about it:

Wouldn't a disabled person take the elevator instead of the stairs?

In addition to what I said above, notwithstanding some handicaps, like my mom's back issues, just like any other person her body needs exercise, movement, activity. When you have those 'good days' or even times when your pain isn't so severe, that's the only time you can get that exercise that is crucial to good health, such as heart problems, weight issues, diabetes, high all those many other conditions that are either caused or excacerbated by lack of exercise.

Well it's nice that you are so concerned about fraudulent use Dan but you know what... it's absolutely none of your business. Do you have any idea how utterly annoying people like you are to those who actually qualify for and use handicap permits? I do not have to justify my private, medical history to you because you think something is "fishy". Would it make you feel any better to know that I qualify for one and could probably outrun you to the GO station as well. On a good day there isn't a limp in sight or a struggle. On a bad day you won't see me because I'll probably be bed bound or at the very least it may take me an hr to actually get out of bed in the morning. Do my good days mean I don't need one? What about my bad days? Are those the only days I'm allowed to go out according to your logic?

Excellent post CSK! So true. Guess you have to actually have physical problems to understand it, at least danfromwaterloo does. Again, while I appreciate your concern danfromwaterloo (I truly do) for others, you still seem convinced that because of what you observed that she has no disabilities or handicaps and no matter how many people who do have handicaps that are telling you they're not always visible etc, you simply won't accept those realities.

Yes. If you can run down the stairs on your good days, you shouldn't use the permit. On the bad days, by all means.

And it never occurred to you that the person may be feeling fine in the morning, but feeling like crap in the afternoon? Being able to run down a single flight of stairs is not the standard test for a disability.

Just like I said above...+1.

flat their tire .. did it like 5times :)

That's mature :rolleyes:, especially because your making the same assumptions as danfromwaterloo. It's also vandalism, a criminal offense. If you get caught doing it, I hope you take pleasure entering the criminal justice system.

Yes, I'm in full acknowledgement that there are some handicaps that are hard to see. And no, I'm no doctor, and I have no magical ability to diagnose people through sight. I just hate scammers. Something about what I saw wreaked of scamming.

I don't believe though that I should disregard what I saw because it had nothing to do with me. If I saw someone break into a house that wasn't mine, should I do nothing? After all, that has nothing to do with me.

If I don't act when I see something wrong, I have no basis to complain when something wrong happens to me.

And what exactly seemed fishy about it? Because everything you've told us surely doesn't sound fishy to me....or obviously to others who have explained why those things don't amount to an assumption that she wasn't legitmately handicapped.

It's not a matter of finding a spot closed by, but finding a spot with adequate spaces to load/unload the mobility device. I don't see any problem with someone reporting to the parking enforcement for suspecting fradulent use of the permit, but definitely not to confront the user.

Well, I've confronted a couple users who had no permit and parked in those spots, leaving my mom to have to walk a long distance from the closest empty parking spot she could find. I've even left a not so nice, but legally informative note on a windshield when the person using the spot wasn't there.

I would mind my own business.

If it meant you're mother having to park farther away with a handicap, I'd bet money you wouldn't.

Most disabled are fakes. those damn disabled parking spaces are empty 99 percent of the time. as a society, we provide overwhelming incentive for people to fake being disabled.

Are you really that ignorant of reality? Please don't flaunt your ignorance, cuz ignorance is annoying as hell.

I can't believe how ignorant your post is. Do you know anything about disabilities?? Many people refer to non-disabled people as not yet disabled because most people will suffer from a disability at some point in their lives. Be glad it hasn't happened to you yet, well, at least not physically.

Contrary to popular myth, there are no benefits or incentives to being disabled. Even thing is a struggle. Something like a parking permit is to make it a little easier because walking is a struggle. I can tell you that everyone who has one of those permits would gladly give it up and park at the back of the lot to be healthy and be able to walk that distance without struggle. People with disabilities represent the highest group of unemployed people in this country. Many live in poverty which is why you won't see many driving luxury cars. It is not that people with disabilities aren't capable, it is that narrow minded people like you won't give them the opportunity. I can't tell you how much money and how many jobs I have lost out on due to my disability. I already have one positive Human Rights decision against an employer for discriminating against me because of my disability. I have an invisible disability so you would never know to look at me. I also don't have a disabled parking permit.

Beautiful!

I should have known better than to ask about ethics on this board.

Why? Because not everyone agrees with you? Learn something from the differing viewpoints. And what do ethics have to do with your question anyway?

[danfromwaterloo]

Why? Because not everyone agrees with you? Learn something from the differing viewpoints. And what do ethics have to do with your question anyway?

Because the overriding message that I've received on this thread is to mind my own business. If it doesn't affect me, I should look the other way and not only should I not care, how dare I care. As if somehow considering acting on someone else's behalf is a terrible thing to do - as I mentioned, my station has few disabled parking spots and they're always full. When I see someone get out of their car in a disabled parking spot with no signs of any disability, then imagine someone who I figure really needs the spot (say a quadrapolegic), it does make me question the validity and want to do something.

I meant no offense to disabled people - in fact, I was trying to help. It is a well known fact that there are MANY abuses in the system (http://www.thestar.com/News/article/183548) and to simply assume that just because someone has a pass doesn't mean it is licenced to them or even necessarily a real pass - they're quite easy to copy.

[MrDisco]

If it meant you're mother having to park farther away with a handicap, I'd bet money you wouldn't.


Ok as usual you've got me :confused: here. So are you disagreeing with me and saying the op should report/intervene based on the appearance of an able-bodied person parking in a handicap spot with the a license to do so? :confused:

As someone who is in possession (whether directly or indirectly) of a handicap license, I stand by my comment. The op should mind his own business.

[RenegadeX]

'Danfromwaterloo', like you, I'm disgusted by the majority of responses here and especially to those who always say "Mind your own business", and especially from those WHO HAVE permits. What these people seem to fail to acknowledge is that: 1) there is absolutely nothing wrong with looking out for someone else's best interests - 'someone', in this case, being any genuinely-'disabled' person pulling into the train station's parking lot and finding all the 'disabled' AAP spaces (unnecessarily) taken. If the person 'danfromwaterloo' suspects is fraudulently using the permit has a genuine reason to be using it, there's no harm done. If however the person should not be using it, good job!
2) just because something does not personally affect you or me today, perhaps some day in the future, it might -- and, if that day should happen, we'll be inconvenienced because nobody before us was willing to step up and fight to get the inconsiderate people to change their boorish and 'illegal' habits.
3) Even though 'CSK'sMom' said "Do you have any idea how utterly annoying people like you are to those who actually qualify for and use handicap permits?", someone who has a genuine need for an AAP and who has been granted one should be THANKFUL if they are ever questioned by a police or by-law enforcement officer about the validity of their permit, as it shows that they are on an active look-out to stop AAP fraud, which *is* rampant. The 'inconvenience' involved is minor, especially compared to that incurred when a needed AAP spot is found taken (unnecessarily).

'danfromwaterloo' asked who he should contact in order to get the woman ticketed, and later said that the police and city were of no help. Nobody yet has said this, but the reason why is that the Go Station parking lot is private property, and neither the police nor the city by-law enforcement officers have jurisdiction to issue tickets there. The only people who can do something about it is Go Transit.

A similar situation has been making noise recently in Peterborough - advocates for the diabled there petitioned the city to start enforcing AAP parking violations on private property, but were basically told "sorry". See article: http://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1620484

---> The paper says "a partial solution could be to pressure the province, which issues the permits, to tighten up the process.

Unfortunately, McGuinty believes he's already done that. Back in December 2005 [link (http://ogov.newswire.ca/ontario/GPOE/2005/12/01/c1699.html?lmatch=&lang=_e.html)] he announced big plans to make "significant changes to ensure that accessible parking permits are available to those who really need them" including measures to crack down on fraudulent use of the permits.

Obviously, they did a stellar job, because a full year later, in February 2007, the following was published in an article on CityNews.ca [link (http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_7658.aspx)]:A published report claims the numbers just don't add up when it comes to how disabled parking passes are handed out in the province. There are reportedly 4,400 people over the age of 100 who have the permits, but there are only 1,700 centenarians in Ontario.

Of the more than 4,000 centenarians registered as permit holders, 78 percent are listed as turning 107 this year. According to transportation records, more than 1,200 are said to be licensed drivers but there were only just over two dozen people over the age of 100 licensed to drive at the end of 2005.
John Tory, PC leader at the time, called McGuinty out on the problem saying "[the groups identified in the report] could be contacted and audited for eligibility by the McGuinty government within the next 30 days if the will was there."

Was it? Did anything ever happen to clean up the system?

Everyone who still thinks that 'danfromwaterloo' should quit wanting to do something about the things he's witnessed and suspects - please read the following 2007 Toronto Star article [source (http://www.thestar.com/News/article/175536)]-- it's long, but worth the read:

http://easycaptures.com/fs/uploaded/279/8670657583.png

--

Finally, there had been some discussion here about the eligibility requirements for an AAP, and the Ontario requirements had been posted. For those who aren't already aware, I'll add the important relevant facts: - "Visual acuity of 20/200 or poorer" ---> translation: "is legally blind"
- "Suffers from lung disease to such an extent that forced expiratory volume in one second is less than one litre." ---> normal values for a healthy individual vary according to body size, race, age, health, etc but would be expected to be in the range of 3-5 litres.
Someone with <1.0L indicates 'severe disease' [source (http://www.fpnotebook.com/Lung/COPD/CpdMngmnt.htm)]-- they would be in a constant state of being 'short of breath' and would NOT be able to run up a flight of stairs.
- "Cardiovascular disease impairment classified as Class III or Class IV to standards accepted by the American Heart Association or Class III or IV according to the Canadian Cardiovascular Standard." ---> What does 'Class III or Class IV' mean?? Refer to the CCS's classification system for angina pectoris (chest pain due to lack of blood flow to the heart): [source (http://ccs.ca/download/position_statements/Grading%20of%20Angina.pdf)]
http://easycaptures.com/fs/uploaded/279/9262949006.png

As NONE of the 7 eligibility requirements [(link again) (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/app.shtml)] appear to be met in the case of the person 'danfromwaterloo' has observed, he is 100% justified in showing concern about AAP misuse. And like I said at the top, if he's wrong, well where was the harm in having it checked out?

[Paolo]

What would you guys do in this case?

I was walking to my GO train this morning and I saw a woman pull up in a handicap parking spot, toss a handicap permit on her dash, and walk onto the platform with nary a limp.

It infuriates me because there actually are disabled people who use our station and someone like her is using one of their spots - potentially making a real handicap person walk a mile.

I have her licence plate and make/model - I tried calling the City, the Ministry, and the Police to no avail. Who can I contact to get this woman ticketed? People selfishly abusing the system deserve to be nailed with a sizable ticket.

Dude, your just being "GEALUS" she did nothing wrong. Just because you saw her pull into the spot with no permit, doesnt means shes disabled. most disabled people dont want to "Flaunt" their permits so they only put them out when they need to. she did nothin wrong, she is allowed to park there, she had a permit, dont stick your nose in other peoples business cus you seem like the kind of person to "look for trouble" or look to cause trouble, especially when theings are perfectelly fine

[freeonboard]

If the disabled can navigate through the store they can navigate through the parking lot. I am seriously tired of seeing empty disabled parking spot. It must cost a fortune to have those parking spaces sitting empty in urban areas. I'm sorry you are disabled but that is life. We are not asking you to climb a mountain or go running. You spent your life eating junk food and not exercising and smoking and now you have a heart condtion or whatever. If you notice, people dont get disabled in poor countries. the extra exercise you get wheeling yourself through the parking spot will likely make you healthier.

truthfully, if i had to use a wheel chair , i would park in the far corner of the parking lot because i would feel awkward trying to get into the wheelchair. i would want fewer people to see this.

[molala]

Huh? No right to look at their permit? Privacy issue? Noooo...there is no expection of privacy when you have a permit or anything else in your window in plain view, so there is no privacy issues here at all.



You find it alright, that's great! But if a stranger want to look at my permit and look at my personal information (my full name and address) on the back of the permit, I would tell them to F Off.

[CanadianMike]

You find it alright, that's great! But if a stranger want to look at my permit and look at my personal information (my full name and address) on the back of the permit, I would tell them to F Off.
+1.....and rightfully so. its the same situation as if some random citizen demanded to see ID because they think you were doing something suspect......they would probably be told to f off as well.

there are issues with the parking permits being handed out very loosely, and some articles have been posted. even if that is the case......it doesnt justify individuals going around scutinizing each person who uses the designated parking spaces. even if you had a concern that the person were misusing the space, there is no need for you to go and demand the person show you their information.

......just mind your own business!!

[CSK'sMom]

You find it alright, that's great! But if a stranger want to look at my permit and look at my personal information (my full name and address) on the back of the permit, I would tell them to F Off.
+1000!

RenegadeX, we're not talking about a bylaw enforcement officer here or a police officer... we're talking about the OP. In this day and age if I was approached by a stranger (especially a man) questioning the use of handicap permit I'd tell him to take a flying leap and if he pushed the issue further I'd be phoning the police on him for harrassment. It's absolutely none of his business to question anyone in person. There are avenues to persue but personal confrontation isn't one of them.

[gilboman]

Blah Blah Blah Blah

yes, you pulled up a few cases of misuse of permits, you can find those anywhere for anything.

Thing is and point is, you nor dan is qualified to determine whether a person is eligible should have a disabled permit or not.

you are basing the validity of someone who should have the permit or not on how much discomfort they show while walking to the train.

and as many here have said, that's not indicative of anything.

[freeonboard]

+1000!

RenegadeX, we're not talking about a bylaw enforcement officer here or a police officer... we're talking about the OP. In this day and age if I was approached by a stranger (especially a man) questioning the use of handicap permit I'd tell him to take a flying leap and if he pushed the issue further I'd be phoning the police on him for harrassment. It's absolutely none of his business to question anyone in person. There are avenues to persue but personal confrontation isn't one of them.


Especially a man??? Mental note: dont help any women being raped or mugged.

[NG]

Especially a man??? Mental note: dont help any women being raped or mugged.

I have heard of cases where it was actually her bf assaulting her and then when some random guy intervened and decked the attacker he ended up getting charged because the bf and gf made up and she lied to the police about what happened.

Generally speaking people are best to be avoided.

[RenegadeX]

Perhaps it's because I just woke up and am half asleep but I seem to be missing where exactly in the 9 posts by 'danfromwaterloo' he ever once write that he actually did --or did consider-- going up to the woman with the AAP and confronting her about the validity of her permit??

No, I'm fully awake and aware.. it ain't there.

So how are the following recent comments(or rather admonishments) justified? :
it doesnt justify individuals going around scutinizing each person who uses the designated parking spaces. even if you had a concern that the person were misusing the space, there is no need for you to go and demand the person show you their information.

......just mind your own business!!
RenegadeX, we're not talking about a bylaw enforcement officer here or a police officer... we're talking about the OP. In this day and age if I was approached by a stranger (especially a man) questioning the use of handicap permit I'd tell him to take a flying leap and if he pushed the issue further I'd be phoning the police on him for harrassment. It's absolutely none of his business to question anyone in person. There are avenues to persue but personal confrontation isn't one of them.

And as for:Blah Blah Blah BlahThing is and point is, you nor dan is qualified to determine whether a person is eligible should have a disabled permit or not.

you are basing the validity of someone who should have the permit or not on how much discomfort they show while walking to the train.The first part is correct as the woman in question is evidently neither my patient nor that of 'danfromwaterloo' -- however it should be noted that all of the eligibility requirements are purposely either measurable or observable (by a doctor for AAP application purposes, but measurable or observable nonetheless). The second part has been responded to by us both already, but the point is there is no harm in having the suspicion followed up by the proper authority. Dan's question is simply "who is that?" (as well as "What would you guys do?").

[danfromwaterloo]

Perhaps it's because I just woke up and am half asleep but I seem to be missing where exactly in the 9 posts by 'danfromwaterloo' he ever once write that he actually did --or did consider-- going up to the woman with the AAP and confronting her about the validity of her permit??

No, I'm fully awake and aware.. it ain't there.

So how are the following recent comments(or rather admonishments) justified? :



And as for:The first part is correct as the woman in question is evidently neither my patient nor that of 'danfromwaterloo' -- however it should be noted that all of the eligibility requirements are purposely either measurable or observable (by a doctor for AAP application purposes, but measurable or observable nonetheless). The second part has been responded to by us both already, but the point is there is no harm in having the suspicion followed up by the proper authority. Dan's question is simply "who is that?" (as well as "What would you guys do?").

Agreed - I never once said I would go up to her and confront her about it, nor would I read the pass for her information, etc. I'm not exactly sure where that all came from.

[ever1221]

The correct answer

+1

you just gotta love canadians when it comes to 'ignore' or 'mind my own business' no am sorry thats stupid, and is not 'the correct answer' thats like seeing someone dying and just close my eyes and mind my own business...

[skyline518]

perfect timing ! I was thinking about this disable parking issue today. I was walking down the parking lot at Bayview Village, and saw this driver examining her newly issued yellow parking ticket while her car parked on handicap spot.

On my way out of BV, I saw parking enforcement issuing similar tickets to a other cars. I suspect they are targeting BV parking lots now.

How much is the fine for this type of infraction? I remembered being told its a substantial amount.

[Pornosaur]

perfect timing ! I was thinking about this disable parking issue today. I was walking down the parking lot at Bayview Village, and saw this driver examining her newly issued yellow parking ticket while her car parked on handicap spot.

On my way out of BV, I saw parking enforcement issuing similar tickets to a other cars. I suspect they are targeting BV parking lots now.

How much is the fine for this type of infraction? I remembered being told its a substantial amount.

I HEARD that it was around $300.

[pintobean]

Hey Dan,

I really hate going to my doctor for annual checkups, so since you seem to have this magical ability to diagnose medical conditions just by looking at someone, I was wondering if I could send you a picture of myself and then you could send me your diagnosis? Let me know...

Thanks!

[danfromwaterloo]

Hey Dan,

I really hate going to my doctor for annual checkups, so since you seem to have this magical ability to diagnose medical conditions just by looking at someone, I was wondering if I could send you a picture of myself and then you could send me your diagnosis? Let me know...

Thanks!

Hmmm....symptoms are that you're sarcastic and persistant. Could be jackassitis. :lol:

[angekfire]

Is it true that if you are under 5 feet tall, you are eligible to apply for a disability parking pass? My friend told me you could, but I am skeptical of this

Ask K_K.

I once took that barton bus, and there was this guy on wheel chair waiting, the bus driver went to back and leaned the bus but she didnt push him, he looked disabled, so people got irritated as to why bus driver didnt push him (she knows something I guess) anyways this guy got pissed he spit as bus driver pass by him...anyways when he got to his destination, the driver was rude to him so this guy got pissed off he stood up and pushed his wheel chair out of the bus and started walking normaly, everybody in bus was shocked....

and bus driver knew this guy was acting all along.

That is dumb. Not sure where you are located, but here in Ottawa the buses lower, and have a ramp that comes out so people in wheelchairs can board. If the person isn't able to get on the bus with that being done for them, how did they even get to the bus stop in the first place? If they need that much help, they should be calling para-transpo instead. In Ottawa, anyway.

And yes, there are many disabilities which aren't visable. My mom for example has a severe amount of pain on most days, but by looking at her you usually can't tell. She doesn't have a disability permit or anything because she wants to keep her independance and dignity, and still be functional. That doesn't mean that she shouldn't have a permit, or couldn't have one.

[CSK'sMom]

Especially a man??? Mental note: dont help any women being raped or mugged.

There is no need to take that stance but as a woman if a strange guy approached and started spouting off about a handicap permit in a GO station lot wouldn't you be a little un-nerved, to say the least. It would totally freak me out and I'll admit that openly. In this day and age of crazy things happening to people in broad daylight one just never knows anymore...

[f00kie]

RFD is an interesting community. Most fantasize about saving a person from a burning building, yet yell at everyone to mind their own business nearly every other time.

Hats off to Dan for doing the anti-Canadian thing: caring.

[TheFuteballer]

What would you guys do in this case?

I was walking to my GO train this morning and I saw a woman pull up in a handicap parking spot, toss a handicap permit on her dash, and walk onto the platform with nary a limp.

It infuriates me because there actually are disabled people who use our station and someone like her is using one of their spots - potentially making a real handicap person walk a mile.

I have her licence plate and make/model - I tried calling the City, the Ministry, and the Police to no avail. Who can I contact to get this woman ticketed? People selfishly abusing the system deserve to be nailed with a sizable ticket.

Not all handicaps are visible Dan. You don't really believe that they are do you? If she has a permit she's entitled to park there if the permit is hers.

+1.

My mom was a car accident nearly 6 months ago now and although she can walk, taking more steps then necessary makes her dizzy and swells up her legs. So to the outside person she might seem like she's not disabled since she might look like she can walk fine but in reality she can't and that's why we need the disability permit to park closer to entrances.

[Cheap Cat]

This isn't about not caring. If the person has a permit, it is not up to you to determine whether or not they should have it. If the person has no permit, then by all means, you should say something. I used to work in retail and I had full view of the disabled spot outside my store and everday I saw people park without permits and I always called them on it.

Lately, I have been seeing so much abuse of these spots by people with no permits that there is no need to go after someone with a permit. Recently, I was at the mall and all the spots disabled spots were used including one by someone without a permit displayed. So a man in an accessible van with a permit, parked his van behind the guy without the permit, blocking him in.

[angekfire]

There is no need to take that stance but as a woman if a strange guy approached and started spouting off about a handicap permit in a GO station lot wouldn't you be a little un-nerved, to say the least. It would totally freak me out and I'll admit that openly. In this day and age of crazy things happening to people in broad daylight one just never knows anymore...

Oh, and a woman can't be just as crazy as a guy can? I almost got knifed & set on fire by a girl I thought I knew. Hell, a few weeks ago here some girl stabbed someone on an OC-Transpo bus.

As a guy, if a strange anyone approached me and started spouting off crap, I'd be a little unnerved.

[Cheap Cat]

Here is an example of why people should mind their own business if a permit is displayed. A friend with a severely disabled daughter parked in the disabled spot with her permit disabled. Her daughter was young at the time (although old enough not to be in a stroller) and in a child's wheelchair which could be mistaken for a stroller by people who don't know any better. A man confronted her and asked why she was in the disabled spot. She responded that she had a permit. Soon a crowd surrounded her and berated her for using the disabled spot. A security guard also came and the police were called. She waited the whole time. The police officer was even challenging her because the permit was in the daughter's name and she had no id to prove it her daughter's name. In frustration she finally asked the police officer if he wanted to pick up her daughter up and prove that she can't stand, let alone walk. He finally let her go. At distance, you many not realize that this child is disabled but close up you can tell especially if you know what to look for. She can't walk or talk or do anything on her own. Note my friend never uses the permit when her daughter is not with her.

[deltone]

Here is an example of why people should mind their own business if a permit is displayed. A friend with a severely disabled daughter parked in the disabled spot with her permit disabled. Her daughter was young at the time (although old enough not to be in a stroller) and in a child's wheelchair which could be mistaken for a stroller by people who don't know any better. A man confronted her and asked why she was in the disabled spot. She responded that she had a permit. Soon a crowd surrounded her and berated her for using the disabled spot. A security guard also came and the police were called. She waited the whole time. The police officer was even challenging her because the permit was in the daughter's name and she had no id to prove it her daughter's name. In frustration she finally asked the police officer if he wanted to pick up her daughter up and prove that she can't stand, let alone walk. He finally let her go. At distance, you many not realize that this child is disabled but close up you can tell especially if you know what to look for. She can't walk or talk or do anything on her own. Note my friend never uses the permit when her daughter is not with her.

Wow, that's one of the saddest stories. Not only does that poor woman have to deal with the sadness of having a special needs child, she has to tolerate the ignorance of strangers. :(

[CanadianMike]

you just gotta love canadians when it comes to 'ignore' or 'mind my own business' no am sorry thats stupid, and is not 'the correct answer' thats like seeing someone dying and just close my eyes and mind my own business...
someone using a designated disabled parking space is not akin to 'seeing someone dying'.

[danfromwaterloo]

someone using a designated disabled parking space is not akin to 'seeing someone dying'.

No, but it's a slippery slope. The instigator is the wrong done. The action is reporting. I don't think anybody here can possible dispute the fact that you should be reporting things to the police. The only question is what is the tolerance you place on the wrong.

Where do you draw the line? At what point do you act on something you perceive to be a wrong - regardless of what other people think. For me, if I think someone is abusing that which is for the disabled, that I consider actionable.

People who scam the system prey on the fact that people who have disabled passes can have good or bad days. Everybody is assuming that the pass is valid. Heck, it might very well be in which case I'm happy to be wrong. But assume for the minute she is a scammer - if you had a parking pass that either didn't belong to you, or was a blatant forgery, how would it present itself? Chances are, it would look exactly as I witnessed it. As stated in a number of articles quoted, there is widespread abuses of handicap parking passes.

Nonetheless, I find it bizarre that people who have disabled relatives or themselves are disabled, are so upset with the concept of someone wanting to report a suspected scammer. After all, if nobody checked those passes and scamming was allowed to run rampant, there'd be no place for you to park. And since the concept of having to validate your pass by a parking enforcement official seems "offensive", abuses of the system will continue. If anything, the overall narrative of this thread has been "mind your own business" - which is something I'll do from now on when it comes to handicap parking. After all, "I can't always tell by looking who's handicapped".

But I'll now be happy to look away as a scammer takes your last spot under those very same auspices. I guess no good deed really does go unpunished.

[MrDisco]

If anything, the overall narrative of this thread has been "mind your own business" - which is something I'll do from now on when it comes to handicap parking. After all, "I can't always tell by looking who's handicapped".


At least something good came out of all of this.

[gilboman]

RFD is an interesting community. Most fantasize about saving a person from a burning building, yet yell at everyone to mind their own business nearly every other time.

Hats off to Dan for doing the anti-Canadian thing: caring.

like how Bush cared and invaded countries? or how crazy bible thumpers care and try to ban gays?

caring for a stupid/wrong cause is not a good thing.

[danfromwaterloo]

At least something good came out of all of this.

I guess I'll wait for your thread about how there's never enough handicap parking then...and not care.

[MrDisco]

I guess I'll wait for your thread about how there's never enough handicap parking then...and not care.

You must have confused me with someone who uses this site as their personal blog hosting service. But yes, feel free to ignore any such future topics - you have my blessing :)

[Nikita]

Because the overriding message that I've received on this thread is to mind my own business. If it doesn't affect me, I should look the other way and not only should I not care, how dare I care. As if somehow considering acting on someone else's behalf is a terrible thing to do - as I mentioned, my station has few disabled parking spots and they're always full. When I see someone get out of their car in a disabled parking spot with no signs of any disability, then imagine someone who I figure really needs the spot (say a quadrapolegic), it does make me question the validity and want to do something.

I meant no offense to disabled people - in fact, I was trying to help. It is a well known fact that there are MANY abuses in the system (http://www.thestar.com/News/article/183548) and to simply assume that just because someone has a pass doesn't mean it is licenced to them or even necessarily a real pass - they're quite easy to copy.

No, but it's a slippery slope. The instigator is the wrong done. The action is reporting. I don't think anybody here can possible dispute the fact that you should be reporting things to the police. The only question is what is the tolerance you place on the wrong.

Where do you draw the line? At what point do you act on something you perceive to be a wrong - regardless of what other people think. For me, if I think someone is abusing that which is for the disabled, that I consider actionable.

People who scam the system prey on the fact that people who have disabled passes can have good or bad days. Everybody is assuming that the pass is valid. Heck, it might very well be in which case I'm happy to be wrong. But assume for the minute she is a scammer - if you had a parking pass that either didn't belong to you, or was a blatant forgery, how would it present itself? Chances are, it would look exactly as I witnessed it. As stated in a number of articles quoted, there is widespread abuses of handicap parking passes.

Nonetheless, I find it bizarre that people who have disabled relatives or themselves are disabled, are so upset with the concept of someone wanting to report a suspected scammer. After all, if nobody checked those passes and scamming was allowed to run rampant, there'd be no place for you to park. And since the concept of having to validate your pass by a parking enforcement official seems "offensive", abuses of the system will continue. If anything, the overall narrative of this thread has been "mind your own business" - which is something I'll do from now on when it comes to handicap parking. After all, "I can't always tell by looking who's handicapped".

But I'll now be happy to look away as a scammer takes your last spot under those very same auspices. I guess no good deed really does go unpunished.

Actually, I applaud you for caring for people like my mother and CSK and truly disabled people. My problem, and I thought I made it clearly but perhaps not, is assuming that this woman was a scammer based on what you saw. As has been repeated ad naseum, and I apologize for doing it again myself, many many disabilities are not visible so if a person has a permit, IMO you have no place to question them. If they don't have a permit, I hope you don't stop caring as you indicated you would do. I hope you would report that. That, in answer to your question, is where you draw the line, between having a permit and not having a permit. In the former, it's not your business to question the validity of what a doctor and the government have already determined. In the latter, you have every right to do something about it and I would (in fact, have) done the same thing, reported a vehicle in a handicapped spot w/o a permit.

Ok as usual you've got me :confused: here. So are you disagreeing with me and saying the op should report/intervene based on the appearance of an able-bodied person parking in a handicap spot with the a license to do so? :confused:

As someone who is in possession (whether directly or indirectly) of a handicap license, I stand by my comment. The op should mind his own business.

I think I answered it just above but anyway...I agree that if a person has a permit, the OP should mind his own business, if the person doesn't have a permit, I'm happy to see him make it his business.

If the disabled can navigate through the store they can navigate through the parking lot. I am seriously tired of seeing empty disabled parking spot. It must cost a fortune to have those parking spaces sitting empty in urban areas. I'm sorry you are disabled but that is life. We are not asking you to climb a mountain or go running. You spent your life eating junk food and not exercising and smoking and now you have a heart condtion or whatever. If you notice, people dont get disabled in poor countries. the extra exercise you get wheeling yourself through the parking spot will likely make you healthier.

truthfully, if i had to use a wheel chair , i would park in the far corner of the parking lot because i would feel awkward trying to get into the wheelchair. i would want fewer people to see this.

Wow, that is one of the most ignorant posts yet. First of all, as many here know, my mom has two serious spinal conditions and therefore has a permit, so what I say is based on my experiences. First of all, my mother cannot navigate through a large store unless she has a motorized wheelchair, which most large stores have. Or if they don't, she can't shop for even a couple items without a shopping cart to assist her in walking. Thirdly, she has at times had to walk more than she should at times, at other times, she just wants to try walking as much as possible so as to ensure her muscles don't completely atrophy and she feels that if she could build up her muscles it might help her. While I applaud her efforts, she inevitably will end up in excruciating pain the next day for those efforts.

As to your next ignorant statement, my mom's spinal issues are not at all a result of spending her "life eating junk food and not exercising and smoking and now you have a heart condtion or whatever". Quite the opposite. My mother spent her life working out, eating well, taking care of herself. **** happens. Bad things happen to good people...regardless of their lifestyle. Your suggestion that all disabled people are that way because of their own bad choices proves only one thing....you are totally ignorant about disabilities and handicaps.

And I call crap on 'all the empty handicap spots'. More often than not, especially at malls, grocery stores, hospitals and other large places, we have to go around and around hoping someone will be leaving one of those spots because they are almost always all taken. Many of those times, my mom just gives up and parks as close as she can and does walk, holding on to my arm with one hand and her cane in the other, for support. And depending on the severity of her pain that day, even if it's one of her 'good' days, she'll suffer for it the next day.

You find it alright, that's great! But if a stranger want to look at my permit and look at my personal information (my full name and address) on the back of the permit, I would tell them to F Off.

Oh c'mon molala, did you not read my post? I was clearly not referring to what's on the back of the permit, I was referring to looking to see IF there is a permit on the windshield, nothing more, nothing less. As I clearly stated, and stand by, is that if it's in plain sight, there's no expectation of privacy. In fact, it should be and is supposed to be visible...for a reason, not just for the fun of it. Of course I would never suggest anybody, except for authorities, has any right to see your personal info that's on the back of the permit. And yeah, I can assure you if anyone demanded to see the back of my mom's permit I'd too tell them to **** off.

perfect timing ! I was thinking about this disable parking issue today. I was walking down the parking lot at Bayview Village, and saw this driver examining her newly issued yellow parking ticket while her car parked on handicap spot.

On my way out of BV, I saw parking enforcement issuing similar tickets to a other cars. I suspect they are targeting BV parking lots now.

How much is the fine for this type of infraction? I remembered being told its a substantial amount.

$500

This isn't about not caring. If the person has a permit, it is not up to you to determine whether or not they should have it. If the person has no permit, then by all means, you should say something. I used to work in retail and I had full view of the disabled spot outside my store and everday I saw people park without permits and I always called them on it.
Lately, I have been seeing so much abuse of these spots by people with no permits that there is no need to go after someone with a permit. Recently, I was at the mall and all the spots disabled spots were used including one by someone without a permit displayed. So a man in an accessible van with a permit, parked his van behind the guy without the permit, blocking him in.

That sums up my feelings on this in a nutshell. I apologize danfromwaterloo if I sounded like I don't appreciate people looking out for the disabled by calling out anyone who doesn't have a permit, I would hope more people would do that. It is only the assumptions based on what you see that I take issue with.

[MrDisco]

I think I answered it just above but anyway..


Umm ok? Still not sure why you responded to my post in the way that you did, but lets map out a time line:

1. the op says he sees someone park in a spot, puts out the permit, and walks off. He then asks what should he do
2. I respond with 'you should mind your own business'
3. Many posts follow
4. You somehow bring my mom into the debate (and I would respectively ask you not do that again) and question my stance, which is quite confusing given we both agree on the course of action.

Do you see how just jumping on posts with out really following the time line makes you look kind of silly?

[Nikita]

Umm ok? Still not sure why you responded to my post in the way that you did, but lets map out a time line:

1. the op says he sees someone park in a spot, puts out the permit, and walks off. He then asks what should he do
2. I respond with 'you should mind your own business'
3. Many posts follow
4. You somehow bring my mom into the debate (and I would respectively ask you not do that again) and question my stance, which is quite confusing given we both agree on the course of action.

Do you see how just jumping on posts with out really following the time line makes you look kind of silly?

My apologies for bringing your mom into the debate, no offense was intended at all, I said that because it's my own mom's situation that makes me feel so strongly about this so I was just kind of using the 'mom' thing to make a point. I have the greatest respect for moms and the elderly in general so I hope you didn't read any kind of insult into that...you'll never see me insulting moms...ever.

I've had no problem following the flow of conversation so I can't agree that I've been 'just jumping on posts w/o really ...'. Perhaps the confusion is on your part. Yeah, I'm confused too (now), but by your confusion and/or the way you express it. Meh, maybe we just don't understand each other's way of expressing ourselves, even with the way you put it above I'm confused with what your point is, sorry.:)

[wallop]

wow