A good start for an IT student?

[monthehuang]

I'm a university student majoring in ITM, I'm wondering, what are the IT certificates that I should get while I'm in university? intro ones since I don't really know which field in IT ill be in yet, but I want to start first so I can be more competitive when I graduate. I'm thinking CCNA, is that a good one to start? is there any other ones??:)

[Churo1]

I'm a university student majoring in ITM, I'm wondering, what are the IT certificates that I should get while I'm in university? intro ones since I don't really know which field in IT ill be in yet, but I want to start first so I can be more competitive when I graduate. I'm thinking CCNA, is that a good one to start? is there any other ones??:)

According to Pitz, as a new grad you should be making anywhere from 80-100K a month. For engineers, double that figure. Anything less and you're a sucker, just tell the hiring manager to F.O when he asks you to work for slave wages (60-70K a year).

[rage2021]

LOL aahahhaha

[Trowa]

According to Pitz, as a new grad you should be making anywhere from 80-100K a month. For engineers, double that figure. Anything less and you're a sucker, just tell the hiring manager to F.O when he asks you to work for slave wages (60-70K a year).




It's easy to say that because someone else posted it. But in this economy and the amount of jobs being lost. I think you should take whatever you can get. Besides 60-70k is a good starting salary.

As there was a previous thread, IT professionals are a DIME a dozen. If you tell the company you are trying to get into to F.O. cause they won't pay you 100k a month. Then you are the fool for doing such a thing. Keep in mind there is always someone else that will do your job for less whether it is in Canada or India.

[mike24]

According to Pitz, as a new grad you should be making anywhere from 80-100K a month. For engineers, double that figure. Anything less and you're a sucker, just tell the hiring manager to F.O when he asks you to work for slave wages (60-70K a year).

Pitz didn't say 100k/month. I would also agree that a new graduate should make at least 100k a year due to inflation, rising utility and food prices, car/insurance payments. When factoring in investments or RRSP's then 100k before taxes isn't that much. What about funding for unexpected circumstances? Like replacing the transmission or adjusting the suspension in your car? What about a family emergency? Who is going to pay for that?

To live comfortably and be financially secure, you need to have at least $2000 to $3000 per month to cover all of your expenses and ensure good savings.

[pitz]

Yeah, I've written in other threads, but engineering and IT professionals (and more broadly, university graduates of almost all stripes) have been operating in a market that has severely undervalued their services for most of the past decade. I won't rehash any of those arguments here, but the 'search' function will show my views, ie: that the era of families HELOC'ing their homes to send their kids to college to glut up the labour market are over -- education is going to have to provide real ROI in the future.

Seriously, as for certs, CCNA can be good. The practice exams don't look difficult at all. And get some experience in undergrad; its usually not too hard to get a help desk job on most campuses if you're an IT student. Do an internship or co-op program. Etc.

[williamsauga]

According to Pitz, as a new grad you should be making anywhere from 80-100K a month. For engineers, double that figure. Anything less and you're a sucker, just tell the hiring manager to F.O when he asks you to work for slave wages (60-70K a year).

Company can hire professional IT from India for 80-100k/decade.

IT its an outsource magnet

and the op is 15 yrs late

[siriuskao]

IMHO it depends on what you want to do. IT is a big field. If it's networking, sure CCNA.

[vavaju]

Company can hire professional IT from India for 80-100k/decade.

IT its an outsource magnet

and the op is 15 yrs late

Depends what type of IT. Tech support? Definitely. Consulting? Not so much.

I was in India a few years ago and got a first hand experience on what their work and culture is like. And the thing is, while their training programs are insane and they are very quick at learning a tech skill, it's also their weakness.

They follow everything by the book and will not deviate from the skills in which they were taught. So if you consider something like tech support or infrastructure, it works very well. But try to do anything in other IT fields like consulting where you need a "problem solver" rather than a "programmer", it might not work that well because it is out of their comfort zone.

Bit off topic, but back to the OP, my advice is pick an area of interest first rather than bulking yourself up with all these certifications that you might not need. Usually companies who are willing to invest in you will pay for all your certification needs. Besides, you might not know what field of IT you like until you actually work in the real world for a few years.

[akito925]

The demand for IT has dropped, unless you want to move out to Dubi or even out West in the middle of no where.

Best bet is be a Doctor! your get a job anywhere.

[sexyj]

all IT department in any company is expandable

You'll be lucky to find something @ > 35 k if you are just starting out.

[pitz]

all IT department in any company is expandable

You'll be lucky to find something @ > 35 k if you are just starting out.

Ummm, maybe business leaders have that view, but in reality, IT is a strategic asset, and the rank and file (non-IT) workers can't get sh*t done when IT is malfunctioning, as it often does.

Once upon a time, I knew of an electric utility that forced all its linemen to enter everything into a completely disfunctional (SAP) computer system. Every day, the line trades would waste an hour of good working time using the archaic computer system. I know of another business, ironically, a large multinational IT business, that neglected their internal IT to such an extent that the company-wide 'pre-load' of XP, 20-40% of the time, wouldn't even load onto the 'recommended' hardware configurations (ie: pre-built laptops) correctly. People working for the same business had to call outsourced IT (in India) 4-5 times just to get their passwords changed correctly, and synch'ed across all the resources that were available.

If business leaders had any idea how much they're losing by outsourcing.... ie: their competitive advantage, a decent quality of service, productivity for the employees that remain and have to put up with that cr*p, retention of non-IT professionals, etc.

[Nyte]

But try to do anything in other IT fields like consulting where you need a "problem solver" rather than a "programmer", it might not work that well because it is out of their comfort zone.


Don't see how the two are mutually exclusive.

[vavaju]

Don't see how the two are mutually exclusive.

Not saying it is. But from my experience all the offshore projects I had to deal with, it usually ends up that way.

It's like a painting. You design the drawing in your mind and fill in the specs as to what colors go where. Then you ship that spec to India and it comes back all filled in for you. Do I know how to color it in myself? Of course, but why do I need to waste my client's time and money when I can get the colors in at a fraction of a cost?

The toughest part in cross-geography projects is training them properly so that when you ask for the color green, you get green back, not red.

[pitz]

vavaju, but doesn't it cost you more money to write an elaborate spec to generate the colour 'green', than it would be for you to just take a paintbrush and do it yourself?

A firm might save on programmers by outsourcing, but then they have to hire a ton of 'business analysts' to write extremely and meticulously detailled specs.

Strangely enough, the outsourcers usually push high-cost, high-maintenance, proprietary solutions. MS-Windows + IIS, instead of Linux + Apache. Lotus Notes, versus wikis. Oracle or MS SQL instead of mySQL, even for small database stuff. Don't know why, but I've never heard of an outsourced project being implemented on the open source platforms. Wonder why...

[vavaju]

vavaju, but doesn't it cost you more money to write an elaborate spec to generate the colour 'green', than it would be for you to just take a paintbrush and do it yourself?

A firm might save on programmers by outsourcing, but then they have to hire a ton of 'business analysts' to write extremely and meticulously detailled specs.

Strangely enough, the outsourcers usually push high-cost, high-maintenance, proprietary solutions. MS-Windows + IIS, instead of Linux + Apache. Lotus Notes, versus wikis. Oracle or MS SQL instead of mySQL, even for small database stuff. Don't know why, but I've never heard of an outsourced project being implemented on the open source platforms. Wonder why...

Well when there are paintings on order and it's gotta be done in x number of days within a budget of y dollars, there's only so much you can do.

Regarding open source technologies, clients don't like to use them. What if the product you're using suddenly stops support? They're screwed. No IT director/executive/VP or whatever would want to take these risks.

[THINKPADT61]

I'm a university student majoring in ITM, I'm wondering, what are the IT certificates that I should get while I'm in university? intro ones since I don't really know which field in IT ill be in yet, but I want to start first so I can be more competitive when I graduate. I'm thinking CCNA, is that a good one to start? is there any other ones??:)

CCNA is definitely good to have, but without any real training, is hard to get... Many people fail on the first try....

Someone here mention about SAP... well, if you become a developer in SAP, you can make 100K+/year

[Quiggie]

I'm a university student majoring in ITM, I'm wondering, what are the IT certificates that I should get while I'm in university? intro ones since I don't really know which field in IT ill be in yet, but I want to start first so I can be more competitive when I graduate. I'm thinking CCNA, is that a good one to start? is there any other ones??:)
Since when do universities offer "IT" degress? I thought they offered computer science degrees? Please elaborate.

If you have a BSc in CS you don't need any certs.

[vavaju]

Since when do universities offer "IT" degress? I thought they offered computer science degrees? Please elaborate.

If you have a BSc in CS you don't need any certs.

I think he means professional certifications outside of your university education, like Microsoft Certifications, Oracle DBA Certifications, Java Certs, etc....

[pitz]

Since when do universities offer "IT" degress? I thought they offered computer science degrees? Please elaborate.


The university I attended offers a "MIS" stream through the Commerce/Business College/Faculty.

Basically its CS, minus most of the physics, electronics/digital logic, and computing theory courses. In their place, courses are added on things like "IT audit", management, contracts, etc.

If you have a BSc in CS you don't need any certs.

Not to turn this thread into one of professional rivalries, but a CS degree itself isn't all that useful. I've known far too many CS grads who are great with theoretical stuff, but couldn't program themselves out of a wet paper bag. A CCNA definitely would fill in a lot of knowledge on the networking side that, quite frankly, isn't learned in a CS program.

[Nyte]

A firm might save on programmers by outsourcing, but then they have to hire a ton of 'business analysts' to write extremely and meticulously detailled specs.

Exactly, you're doing double the work, once for someone to write a very very detailed spec, and then for someone to translate it into code.

On top of that, it only accounts for correctness. Unless these things were also specified very precisely, forget about performance, security, etc.

[vavaju]

Exactly, you're doing double the work, once for someone to write a very very detailed spec, and then for someone to translate it into code.

On top of that, it only accounts for correctness. Unless these things were also specified very precisely, forget about performance, security, etc.

That's not the role of a business analyst.

Business analysts only drive the business requirements of a project from a "business only" perspective. Once those are completed the Technical Arch takes over and turns the business requirements into a tech design, and it is during that phase of the project where detailed tech specs, performance, security, scalability, etc... items are considered.

Of course, companies may have their own proven-methodologies they use to deliver a project. But in general that's the jist of it.

[Immortal]

Exactly, you're doing double the work, once for someone to write a very very detailed spec, and then for someone to translate it into code.

On top of that, it only accounts for correctness. Unless these things were also specified very precisely, forget about performance, security, etc.

Writing a very very detailed spec is necessary. When the programmer goes, who will know exactly what that part does what and linked to what? I know programmers can comment the program but it's not enough.

Documentation and detailing specs are very important for sustainability and troubleshooting.

[kim23]

It's difficult to get Network or System Administrator job without having experience. I guess the easiest way for you to get in would be to try getting a helpdesk position, then you can work your way up from there. If you choose Microsoft's route, the MCSA cert is a good start. It is a recognized cert in the job market and will land you a better paying job out of the gate then the CCNA would. A nice thing also is that an MCSA cert can be upgraded to MCSE status with two additional tests. Specializing in security is also a good choice since security is such a hot topic these days. I would recommend finding a good online IT training (http://www.gtssminds.com/what-we-do/it-training.htm) program. You will find that they have a really good network for finding jobs after graduation

[Nyte]

Writing a very very detailed spec is necessary. When the programmer goes, who will know exactly what that part does what and linked to what? I know programmers can comment the program but it's not enough.

Documentation and detailing specs are very important for sustainability and troubleshooting.
Except that your spec gets so detailed and big that it would take just as much time to dig through the spec to fix a problem as it does to dig through the code. Plus the code might not even match the spec.

Another thing to note is that none of the top tech companies write very detailed specs; they don't seem to be doing so bad.

[Ziggy007]

all IT department in any company is expandable

You'll be lucky to find something @ > 35 k if you are just starting out.

In my graduating class last summer not a single person took a job that paid less than 45k a year.

The top pay coming straight out of school was hovering around 63k.

To be honest the "business people" of companies are the are dime a dozens, all of whom think they should be CEO. A good IT department is the backbone of everything that makes the company run.

For example as a programmer in my office I could make a system in a 3-6 months that would replace the jobs of about 5-10 senior level business people and do all the work they did:

a) more efficiently
b) cheaper
c) faster
d) more accurate

Am I replacable? Only in the eyes of someone who thinks that pen and paper are the future of the world and is too dumb to start their own computer.

[pitz]

For example as a programmer in my office I could make a system in a 3-6 months that would replace the jobs of about 5-10 senior level business people and do all the work they did:


Yeah, that's why the 'business' people want to destroy IT, by hiring the wrong people (ie: cheap immigrants who don't have the language/business skills to succeed and build the solutions you speak of). They don't want to lose their jobs. Its a race towards the bottom.

And $63k top salary? Did someone forget to tell them what decade they were in?? Lol.

[Gofishus]

Pitz didn't say 100k/month. I would also agree that a new graduate should make at least 100k a year due to inflation, rising utility and food prices, car/insurance payments. When factoring in investments or RRSP's then 100k before taxes isn't that much. What about funding for unexpected circumstances? Like replacing the transmission or adjusting the suspension in your car? What about a family emergency? Who is going to pay for that?

To live comfortably and be financially secure, you need to have at least $2000 to $3000 per month to cover all of your expenses and ensure good savings.

How many new IT graduates do you know that came out of university with a four year degree making a six figure income?

[pitz]

How many new IT graduates do you know that came out of university with a four year degree making a six figure income?

In the 1990s, adjusted for house prices and fuel prices, a six figure income was routine for 4-year IT grads. It gave them a good middle-class standard of living, allowed them to save and invest, etc., etc.

IT businesses were immensly profitable and fast-growing as well. And smart guys, after a couple years of working, would easily have enough saved up that they could go work for a startup for minimal cash pay, but mainly equity compensation.

[coolspot]

Strangely enough, the outsourcers usually push high-cost, high-maintenance, proprietary solutions. MS-Windows + IIS, instead of Linux + Apache. Lotus Notes, versus wikis. Oracle or MS SQL instead of mySQL, even for small database stuff. Don't know why, but I've never heard of an outsourced project being implemented on the open source platforms. Wonder why...

Open Source is only free if your time is free.

[mike24]

How many new IT graduates do you know that came out of university with a four year degree making a six figure income?

None, but I don't see why new graduates should be restricted to a specific salary range. They are free to make as much as they want in a free market economy. If they have a skill or talent then they can use it to their advantage.

[jacker]

Wow. Everyone here must live in Toronto.

I can't believe how high the salary expectations are. It sounds like you're saying 100k is the average salary.

Are things really that expensive in Toronto?

[mike24]

Wow. Everyone here must live in Toronto.

I can't believe how high the salary expectations are. It sounds like you're saying 100k is the average salary.

Are things really that expensive in Toronto?

Don't even get me started about the inflated property costs in TO. You can buy yourself an old shack thats ready to fall apart for about $1 million in old town.

Even massages are expensive. I pay about $100 twice a month for a good massage with acupuncture at a clinic close to U of T. Not bad business for a procedure that takes about 45 minutes.