Toronto City workers: will they strike tomorrow?

[wallop]

I heard that during the 2002 strike people began dumping garbage on parks, ravines, beaches, etc.

Shame on you Torontonians.

[jstaneon]

actually we are planning on dumping it on your front lawn, if thats ok with you?

[wallop]

actually we are planning on dumping it on your front lawn, if thats ok with you?

I have no front lawn...

[babynorth]

I heard that during the 2002 strike people began dumping garbage on parks, ravines, beaches, etc.

Shame on you Torontonians.

I hope there's no strike.

Even though they may have a right to strike, the province might legislate them back to work due to hot weather and its tourism season.


actually we are planning on dumping it on your front lawn, if thats ok with you?

lol, There's no shame it that. If there's no front lawn, how about the backyard?

[babynorth]

Private garbage and recycling collection will continue in Etobicoke and at most condos and apartment buildings across city.

Read article from Toronto Sun: How a strike will affect you?
http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2009/06/21/9877206-sun.html

[minib26]

question with regards to the article (http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2009/06/21/9877206-sun.html) posted above, this line:

PARKING TICKETS

Will not be issued.

does this mean people can park anywhere in toronto without consequence ?

does the green-P parking lots fall under this as well?

[help_questions]

regardless if they strike tomorrow or not, we need to email david miller and show support and express our desire for the union to make serious concessions.

here is a link to an updated article.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/654346

"If this turns into a strike, it 's not because of union demands. Let me be clear: It is because of the City of Toronto's demands to rip things away from us."

I've emailed David Miller and demanded that the union make the requested concessions, and expressed my support for the city's position during these negotiations. By showing they city that they have the support of the public, they will not back down from this union and hopefully get the concessions that are in the best interests of the general public.


Here is David Miller's email: mayor_miller@toronto.ca

I suggest everyone who is against the union take a quick moment and send the mayor an email or phone call and let him know that WE, the public, are against the union and support the concessions that the city is seeking.

[_Allan_]

I was called to do Security at a CoT site, which means that YES, the strike is most likely happening.

[Talamasca]

question with regards to the article (http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2009/06/21/9877206-sun.html) posted above, this line:



does this mean people can park anywhere in toronto without consequence ?

does the green-P parking lots fall under this as well?

Well there's one good thing about this strike!

[kingfencer]

since no one enforcing green parking, they mind as well make them dump sites...

[krozet]

I vote yes they will. Call it a hunch...

[dgs]

Weather forecast for this week is sunny most days - of course they are going to strike. The one real question is whether taxpayers will get a property tax refund, since the city won't be paying all those wages - oops perhaps that one's even more obvious in fact...:twisted:

[_Allan_]

Live, now on CP24 at 12:19am, it's official CUPE Local 79 and CUPE Local 416 are ON STRIKE

[Emancipated]

I thought any decision making was deferred until the 30th? This sucks!

[_Allan_]

Emancipated - June 30th is another couple Locals ...

I know that before July 10, there are likely to be 18 different "Locals" on strike, including the 416, 79 ... Coca Cola, a Truck Union, Globe & Mail, and a dozen or so more.

[shannn]

Hmmm, 2009 seems to be the year of the strike

York University, Local 79, Local 416, and the other bunch posted by Allan >:(

Talk about productivity! :lol:

[ktan09]

27 Patrick St. is the head office of the CUPE workers leading this garbage strike, I say we dump our garbage on their front door.

[AcidBomber]

Emancipated - June 30th is another couple Locals ...

I know that before July 10, there are likely to be 18 different "Locals" on strike, including the 416, 79 ... Coca Cola, a Truck Union, Globe & Mail, and a dozen or so more.



wow for real?!
no more Coke? better stock up. LOL

[chinese zzz]

Now I don't know what to do with my garbage...:(
Keep in the house??:(

I don't want to drive and deliver the trash ...:cry:

[kingfencer]

Now I don't know what to do with my garbage...:(
Keep in the house??:(

I don't want to drive and deliver the trash ...:cry:


my dad is already loading my car with garbage...

[Emancipated]

my dad is already loading my car with garbage...

What's the list of depots? I don't want flies and maggots near my home.

[Madchester]

What's the list of depots? I don't want flies and maggots near my home.

http://www.toronto.ca/labour-relations/index.htm#h

Scroll down

[shannn]

Now I don't know what to do with my garbage...:(
Keep in the house??:(

I don't want to drive and deliver the trash ...:cry:

Deliver it here:

27 Patrick St. is the head office of the CUPE workers leading this garbage strike, I say we dump our garbage on their front door.

[user01]

My small garbage bin is 105% occupied with the lid open and my recycle bin is 90% full. If they don't pick up the garbage by this week, the garbage from the green bin will end up in the recycle bin! :twisted:

[blahraptors]

is it just me or can mark ferguson not talk properly? he seems to be doubling a lot of the words he is saying in the press conference. "has placed, uh.. has placed us" "this press, uh.. press conference" "i addressed uh addressed.."

LOL you would think the president would speak very fluently

[Dina_E]

why is that all the leaders of these unions are irish or from western europe??

[Longobongo]

So the strike is on Monday correct? I wonder who will clean up the MMVAs then?

[Takami]

Emancipated - June 30th is another couple Locals ...

I know that before July 10, there are likely to be 18 different "Locals" on strike, including the 416, 79 ... Coca Cola, a Truck Union, Globe & Mail, and a dozen or so more.

A month ago, LCBO was considering a strike as well. The LCBO is actually one that can open a can of problems to Ontario. People do stupid things when they lose access to liquor. You'll have a lot of people who couldn't get drunk from their own home will have to get intoxicated elsewhere.

[45ED]

For what it's worth, we do have an RFDer who DID clue us in that a strike was eminent by CUPE 416 and 79. I mean, sure we didn't have to take it seriously but given how far back we were warned, we had time to be prepared if things fubared:


Thumbs down Get ready for a new strike in Toronto. Local 79 and 416 by the looks of it.

Secrets can't be kept for long. Just heard from a "reliable source" that they are getting ready for a strike. Apparently to be played in this manner:


Strike threatened
Miller says zero funds
Strike for 2 weeks saving some money for the city
Offset short term strike resolution by the 2 week misadventure and agree to a deal.
Miller keeps his socialite voting regime in his Godly hands.


HR are preparing as I type. Should be sometime in May.

Toronto the lost

(From April 29, 2009)


So...credit to Think? Timings a little off (strike in June, not May) but that both 416 and 79 ended up striking as predicted, pretty good eh?

okay, now for jury duty

[LonesomeDove]

Funny how garbage strikes always occur in warm or hot weather.

[45ED]

Funny how garbage strikes always occur in warm or hot weather.

No one would care if it was in the winter. We'd be secure in the knowledge that if we kept the wet garbage outside, the cold weather would keep the smells/bugs away.

That, and it seems that contracts tend to end around now - that is, CUPE and the city (at least 416 and 79) tend to negotiate contracts around this time.

[a1cd]

It shocks me how people can really strike and complain about wages/sick days in a economy like this.
Look at how much debt Canada and Ontario is in..
when I hear people from CUPE saying things like "Toronto is putting the knife to us" its just ridiculous, there is long long long line of people who are unemployed who would take your job at half pay and NO sick days.

Look at all the other strikes which have hurt so many people, Viva and Ottawa Transit cripple commuters lives, the York strike puts many students lives on hold, this strike is going to be tough on parents who rely on day care..

I'm all for worker rights, but there is a time and a place. If you are getting 3$/hour working 14 hour shifts in horrible conditions then you have a right to complain. If you are working a job above minimum wage with a benefits plan.. you really should just shut up and be happy with what you have.

Its a joke how union-friendly Ontario has become.

[originalnutta]

It shocks me how people can really strike and complain about wages/sick days in a economy like this.
Look at how much debt Canada and Ontario is in..
when I hear people from CUPE saying things like "Toronto is putting the knife to us" its just ridiculous, there is long long long line of people who are unemployed who would take your job at half pay and NO sick days.

Look at all the other strikes which have hurt so many people, Viva and Ottawa Transit cripple commuters lives, the York strike puts many students lives on hold, this strike is going to be tough on parents who rely on day care..

I'm all for worker rights, but there is a time and a place. If you are getting 3$/hour working 14 hour shifts in horrible conditions then you have a right to complain. If you are working a job above minimum wage with a benefits plan.. you really should just shut up and be happy with what you have.

Its a joke how union-friendly Ontario has become.
You're right. we should all have our wages lowered and no sick days. And also no job security.

[a1cd]

You're right. we should all have our wages lowered and no sick days. And also no job security.

Where did I say that?
I really wonder why people think that if unions like this were thrown out that job standards would decrease so much? The government is the one who protects your rights as a worker.. unions just try to take advantage of your rights to take as much as they can from the employer.
There are plenty of people who have low pay and dont/cant strike. The problem is that only a select few are in a position to strike, and they abuse this power. These select people are NOT the lowest level of society.

The majority of these unions that go on strike have higher than average salaries. Yes then may have problems with sick days or job security but that is the way it is going to be in a down economy.

The fact that these people, who are not in a extremely desperate situation can hold an entire city full of innocent people hostage is just not fair.

[kkvvpp]

You're right. we should all have our wages lowered and no sick days. And also no job security.

This is probably the dumbest thing I've heard all week. Stop making stuff up.

These guys SHOULD and NEED to be paid like doctors with permanent job security and all the sick days they want.

See how that works?

Everytime someone doesn't side with the union, everyone automatically assumes they think that person wants the union to work for minimum wage.

[_Allan_]

No one would care if it was in the winter. We'd be secure in the knowledge that if we kept the wet garbage outside, the cold weather would keep the smells/bugs away.
... Raccoons, Squirrels, Skunks etc would still get into it

It shocks me how people can really strike and complain about wages/sick days in a economy like this.
Look at how much debt Canada and Ontario is in..
when I hear people from CUPE saying things like "Toronto is putting the knife to us" its just ridiculous, there is long long long line of people who are unemployed who would take your job at half pay and NO sick days.

Look at all the other strikes which have hurt so many people, Viva and Ottawa Transit cripple commuters lives, the York strike puts many students lives on hold, this strike is going to be tough on parents who rely on day care..

I'm all for worker rights, but there is a time and a place. If you are getting 3$/hour working 14 hour shifts in horrible conditions then you have a right to complain. If you are working a job above minimum wage with a benefits plan.. you really should just shut up and be happy with what you have.

Its a joke how union-friendly Ontario has become.

NOT just Ontario, but Canada as a whole ... I believe that Parliament Hill needs to say pass a No More Strikes bill.

[EM_K19]

At times like this I'm really glad to be on the other side of Steeles Ave (literally only metres north, thus putting me in Markham). :twisted:

But I really do hope that this will be resolved quickly.

[help_questions]

You're right. we should all have our wages lowered and no sick days. And also no job security.

Why do you assume that concessions equate to wages lowered and no sick days.

To be honest, I disagree with the entire union membership getting the same benefits. The benefits should vary, according to the jobs, qualifications and other factors.

The bottom line is that the paramedics should get more sick days, better benefits than the garbage men.

Going back to your nonsense post, I believe the wages and benefits of the garbage man SHOULD be lowered, while the wages and benefits of the paramedics should be increased.

Giving the garbage man the same benefits as the paramedic is simply inefficient, wasteful and stupid.

... Ontario, but Canada as a whole ... I believe that Parliament Hill needs to say pass a No More Strikes bill.


I agree. But they are not going to just decided to do this a piss of the unions. They need to know it is what the majority of Canadians want...they need to know they will be re-elected after taking away the ability to strike.

Millions of Canadians will need to lobby the government to make something like this happen. We would need press coverage, social networking groups, a leader to organize rallies and protests.

Is it possible? ABSOLUTELY, but millions of Canadians need to step up and demand these changes from the government in an organized way.

[WontonTiger]

You're right. we should all have our wages lowered and no sick days. And also no job security.

You should be paid for your abilities, not because you "think" you deserve more money, at other people's expense.

Besides, nice way to completely skew his point with words that YOU just made up on the spot. You are really stretching, kind of the way the union reps seem to think.

You're paid based on your worth to society, and CUPE members are worth very little (except for a few specialized industries).

[tdott]

Sent an email, This is the automated reply i got.


Thank you for your email letter.

We appreciate you taking the time to write.

The Mayor has released the following statement:

"I am very disappointed that we have been unable to reach an agreement with the Toronto Civic Employees' Union Local 416 (CUPE) and the Canadian Union of Public Employees (CUPE) Local 79.

City negotiators worked very hard to put the kind of proposals forward that would have resulted in a fair agreement. It is regrettable that those were not accepted by locals 416 and 79.

As things stand, members of locals 416 and 79 will not be on the job today. I know that this will inconvenience Torontonians in many different ways.

I am asking residents and businesses to be as patient as possible while a resolution to the strike is pursued.

The cooperation of everyone will be needed.

The City has committed to maintaining those services that ensure the health and safety of Torontonians and protect our most vulnerable.

Police, fire and TTC services remain unaffected by this disruption. And although impacted by the work stoppage, emergency medical services will continue to operate and clients who currently receive Ontario Works benefits will continue to do so without interruption.

Most other regular services will be either reduced or cancelled during this time and I regret the hardship this will place on our residents.

For a complete list of our contingency plans, please visit www.toronto.ca

While we will continue to negotiate with the union locals during a strike I want residents and businesses to know that we are working in their interests to protect the future of services in our City.

From the very start of bargaining the City has stated clearly that new collective agreements need to be negotiated based on three important principles:

1.agreements must be fair to the City's employees;
2.agreements must be affordable to Torontonians; and
3.agreements must contain the changes necessary to permit the Toronto Public Service to deliver the best possible services to our City

Given the City's financial circumstances, the recession, the increasing demand for City services and the limited revenues of the City, these principles of bargaining made sense and still do.

The City is facing enormous budget challenges in 2009, 2010 and beyond. The cost of providing services must be in balance with the revenues the City has available to pay the bills.

I again want to thank our negotiating teams and I know they share my disappointment at not reaching an agreement.

The negotiating teams are committed to continuing to work hard until an agreement is reached.

While reaching a negotiated settlement was the objective of our bargaining we must ensure that any settlement is truly fair and affordable - and we will continue to work with the unions on achieving that goal.

City workers provide incredibly valuable services - many of them 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Everyone recognizes the value of City services and the contribution they make to our quality of life.

We look forward to resolving the matter as quickly as possible."

Again, thank you.
Joanne Miller

[Talamasca]

At times like this I'm really glad to be on the other side of Steeles Ave (literally only metres north, thus putting me in Markham). :twisted:

But I really do hope that this will be resolved quickly.

Yeah, 905 (and Etobicoke) ftw!

What are the ramifications of Toronto switching to private, contracted-out garbage collectors?

[Chr1s]

Nice ploy to save some money for this City, which is severely cash strapped and they continue to spend like they have a lottery winfall.

As already posted, this is no more than a set-up to save a few bucks for their 'budget' on the back of tax payers, who are still paying taxes, for NO SERVICE during this strike.

I"m beyond mad these days... off to draft a letter demanding my taxes back for no services provided. :cheesygri

[Pete Jones]

Yeah, 905 (and Etobicoke) ftw!

What are the ramifications of Toronto switching to private, contracted-out garbage collectors?

The unions would be upset. David Miller would not allow that.

At the risk of turning this into a political thread, keep in mind that during the 2002 strike, Councillor David Miller was out on the picket line with the strikers showing his support.

Just something to remember

--Pete

[MasterXan]

it doesn't matter how many letters or e-mails you send to Miller, he's gonna support the unions. He will force people bend over for the unions.

the only way to stop him is to vote him out next year. hopefully the next guy would the guts to layoff some of these CUPE bums.

@help_questions

These garbage men should receive lower wages and benefits than paramedics but in these economic times, everyone should take some cuts.

[Chr1s]

it doesn't matter how many letters or e-mails you send to Miller, he's gonna support the unions. He will force people bend over for the unions.

the only way to stop him is to vote him out next year. hopefully the next guy would the guts to layoff some of these CUPE bums.

@help_questions

These garbage men should receive lower wages and benefits than paramedics but in these economic times, everyone should take some cuts.

You're wrong... every letter is NOT the same. Look at the demand letter. (http://www.canadalegal.com/forms/demand-letter.asp) How you utilize it is another matter.

[WontonTiger]

To understand Comrade Miller's support, just read his priorities...

1.agreements must be fair to the City's employees;
2.agreements must be affordable to Torontonians; and
3.agreements must contain the changes necessary to permit the Toronto Public Service to deliver the best possible services to our City

Which does he rank #1... The city's employees.

[help_questions]

it doesn't matter how many letters or e-mails you send to Miller, he's gonna support the unions. He will force people bend over for the unions.

the only way to stop him is to vote him out next year. hopefully the next guy would the guts to layoff some of these CUPE bums.

@help_questions

These garbage men should receive lower wages and benefits than paramedics but in these economic times, everyone should take some cuts.

absolutely, especially those being paid with taxpayers dollars.
That said, the fact that the garbage men get the same amount of sick days as the paramedics is inefficient. Basically, there are two points to to be dealt with:

1) 18 sick days is too much, and this needs to be reduced. Furthermore, the banking of sick days needs to be tightened (not necessarily eliminated, although I would support eliminating it)

2) what ever sick day system they use, the paramedics should have more sick days than the garbage men. The number of sick days should vary from position to position.

But that's just my point of view.

[Emancipated]

For what it's worth, we do have an RFDer who DID clue us in that a strike was eminent by CUPE 416 and 79. I mean, sure we didn't have to take it seriously but given how far back we were warned, we had time to be prepared if things fubared:



So...credit to Think? Timings a little off (strike in June, not May) but that both 416 and 79 ended up striking as predicted, pretty good eh?

okay, now for jury duty

I'm dense, I admit it but out of curiousity, how would one prepare for a garbage pick up strike? Conserve on food item that have packaging, get a composter or two if already had one, etc?

[Emancipated]

absolutely, especially those being paid with taxpayers dollars.
That said, the fact that the garbage men get the same amount of sick days as the paramedics is inefficient. Basically, there are two points to to be dealt with:

1) 18 sick days is too much, and this needs to be reduced. Furthermore, the banking of sick days needs to be tightened (not necessarily eliminated, although I would support eliminating it)

2) what ever sick day system they use, the paramedics should have more sick days than the garbage men. The number of sick days should vary from position to position.

But that's just my point of view.

Reducing their sick days would only stagnate the negotiations even further. At most, I think we should say they need to take them all in a year or lose them. If we can fire them, I'm sure we would have already. You think people aren't willing to do their jobs in these tough economic times? They may be doing a menail job but I don't think they're that stupid not to realize others would gladly take over if need be. Either way, Unions are really archaic and a detriment to progress.

[Emancipated]

No one would care if it was in the winter. We'd be secure in the knowledge that if we kept the wet garbage outside, the cold weather would keep the smells/bugs away.

That, and it seems that contracts tend to end around now - that is, CUPE and the city (at least 416 and 79) tend to negotiate contracts around this time.

Woulnd't snow removal be affected? I think as long as business can remain status quo, the government aren't really going to do much and sit on their hands but if snow cripples the city, they certainly would have to intervene. This will be another smelly summer it seems.

[help_questions]

I'm dense, I admit it but out of curiousity, how would one prepare for a garbage pick up strike? Conserve on food item that have packaging, get a composter or two if already had one, etc?

Well, for me, I didn't accept or deny an offer for a volunteer position in the 905. I just kept stalling for time...but now that the strike is on, I have contacted the organizational accepted the position.

I will be quitting the volunteer position that I did accept, which is located in the 416. I don't want to see or smell other people's garbage (especially when I step out for a smoke) so I'll just ditch the 416 organization and take the 905 position.

[kkvvpp]

It's the indefinite banking of sick days that is expensive. They can bank up to 6 months or 120 days. They should follow the same sick day system everyone else uses.

Does anyone know how many days off in a year they get? Aside from holidays, but vacation days or days to use for whatever reason.

[Kenny Blankenship]

Well, for me, I didn't accept or deny an offer for a volunteer position in the 905. I just kept stalling for time...but now that the strike is on, I have contacted the organizational accepted the position.

I will be quitting the volunteer position that I did accept, which is located in the 416. I don't want to see or smell other people's garbage (especially when I step out for a smoke) so I'll just ditch the 416 organization and take the 905 position.

Oh man, just had to quote this lol

[Emancipated]

Well, for me, I didn't accept or deny an offer for a volunteer position in the 905. I just kept stalling for time...but now that the strike is on, I have contacted the organizational accepted the position.

I will be quitting the volunteer position that I did accept, which is located in the 416. I don't want to see or smell other people's garbage (especially when I step out for a smoke) so I'll just ditch the 416 organization and take the 905 position.

Great but that was useless to people asking about garbage. So did something self serving, good for you.

In theory, they can accumulate enough sick days to take half a year or a full year off work. Is this what they're picketing about? No job on god's green earth has that kind of benefit. I wish they would fire these fuggers.

[help_questions]

Great but that was useless to people asking about garbage. So did something self serving, good for you.

In theory, they can accumulate enough sick days to take half a year or a full year off work. Is this what they're picketing about? No job on god's green earth has that kind of benefit. I wish they would fire these fuggers.

I really don't have an answer about how to prepare. You can't prepare. We are being held hostage by a selfish union, when it is our taxes that pay them. There should be competiton in the garbage collection industry, so that when one union goes on strike, another set of workers/companies can step up. No matter what, the general public should not have to suffer.

And yes, that is what they are striking for. They want to keep their extravagant benefits on our dime even though we are in the middle of a recession. I hope everyone can see how selfish this union is.....

[weyoun]

It's really scary that a little inconvenience - not even that, but the mere fear of inconvenience - turns Canadians into Nazis willing to revoke fundamental freedoms. Pathetic.


Why do you assume that concessions equate to wages lowered and no sick days.

To be honest, I disagree with the entire union membership getting the same benefits. The benefits should vary, according to the jobs, qualifications and other factors.

The bottom line is that the paramedics should get more sick days, better benefits than the garbage men.

Going back to your nonsense post, I believe the wages and benefits of the garbage man SHOULD be lowered, while the wages and benefits of the paramedics should be increased.

Giving the garbage man the same benefits as the paramedic is simply inefficient, wasteful and stupid.




I agree. But they are not going to just decided to do this a piss of the unions. They need to know it is what the majority of Canadians want...they need to know they will be re-elected after taking away the ability to strike.

Millions of Canadians will need to lobby the government to make something like this happen. We would need press coverage, social networking groups, a leader to organize rallies and protests.

Is it possible? ABSOLUTELY, but millions of Canadians need to step up and demand these changes from the government in an organized way.

[MasterXan]

It's really scary that a little inconvenience - not even that, but the mere fear of inconvenience - turns Canadians into Nazis willing to revoke fundamental freedoms. Pathetic.

what nazis? revoke fundamental freedoms? what fundamental freedoms?

[kkvvpp]

It's really scary that a little inconvenience - not even that, but the mere fear of inconvenience - turns Canadians into Nazis willing to revoke fundamental freedoms. Pathetic.

Talk about putting a spin on things! You should work for Fox news.


In theory, they can accumulate enough sick days to take half a year or a full year off work. Is this what they're picketing about? No job on god's green earth has that kind of benefit. I wish they would fire these fuggers.

Yes lol, this is the main sticking issue they don't want to give up and say the city is taking a knife to them about it.

Here's a quote from an article from The Star;

The city auditor last year concluded a review of how city managers supervised the average worker's claim of sick time and was quite critical. He conducted the review after getting calls to the city's fraud hotline – calls from fellow workers who complained that sick days were being exploited, that workers were improperly using banked days as they approached retirement, even when they were not legitimately ill.

Apparently, some long-time workers have more banked sick days than the 120 maximum they will be paid for. So, they book off sick.

[weyoun]

Read the original post..

"I agree. But they are not going to just decided to do this a piss of the unions. They need to know it is what the majority of Canadians want...they need to know they will be re-elected after taking away the ability to strike."

Taking away the right to strike is the kind of thing done by fascist governments.. not democratic ones.


what nazis? revoke fundamental freedoms? what fundamental freedoms?

[pintobean]

Some CUPE members are picketing in the alley behind my office tower. When they first came out at 9:30am they were standing on the sidewalk wearing their sandwich boards, but now the f@t f@cks are relaxing in lawn chairs wearing shorts and tank tops and resting their feet on coolers and ice chests.

One of the idiots had a megaphone and kept yelling into it every time a car passed by. Then he started using the siren feature on the megaphone and sounding off a horn every couple of minutes. He definitely knew that he was irritating people because two office towers and the Royal York hotel all back onto the alley and I saw at least two people in the hotel look out at the picketers and then close their windows.

After listening to the yelling and sirens for about twenty minutes, I called our building's security and complained that the picketers were violating the noise bylaws. They said that there was nothing that they could do, because they were not on the building's property. So I told them to call the police and file a formal noise complaint.

About an hour ago a police cruiser pulled up and two officers got out and talked to the guy with the megaphone. I am 20+ storeys up, so I couldn't hear what was said, but it looked like it was a heated discussion. Finally the guy with the megaphone walked over to his car and tossed the megaphone in the trunk. :lol:

Victory is sweet!

.

[danfromwaterloo]

I'm shocked that the employees are striking in a time of deep recession. It seems that these unions don't really care that times are tough - they want what they want and that's that. It doesn't matter that it already exceeds what normal people (read: private sector) get.

I work for a bank, and I'm entitled to 8 sick days a year - 3 of which I can take as a POD (personal obligation day - practically a vacation day). Those days expire at the end of the year with no benefit to me if I take them or not. Typically I only take one or two. To think these guys get 10 more days that carry over which they can redeem as vacation at any point ON TOP of their already large vacation allotment seems like an unnecessary benefit.

I for one hope the city breaks the union on this point and really sticks it to them. Unions have gotten far too powerful for their own good; the city needs to crack down on them. Give them salary and benefits commensurate with what private garbage collectors get. Why should working benefits for a public company exceed that of a private company?

[ricoboxing]

Some CUPE members are picketing in the alley behind my office tower. When they first came out at 9:30am they were standing on the sidewalk wearing their sandwich boards, but now the f@t f@cks are relaxing in lawn chairs wearing shorts and tank tops and resting their feet on coolers and ice chests.

One of the idiots had a megaphone and kept yelling into it every time a car passed by. Then he started using the siren feature on the megaphone and sounding off a horn every couple of minutes. He definitely knew that he was irritating people because two office towers and the Royal York hotel all back onto the alley and I saw at least two people in the hotel look out at the picketers and then close their windows.

After listening to the yelling and sirens for about twenty minutes, I called our building's security and complained that the picketers were violating the noise bylaws. They said that there was nothing that they could do, because they were not on the building's property. So I told them to call the police and file a formal noise complaint.

About an hour ago a police cruiser pulled up and two officers got out and talked to the guy with the megaphone. I am 20+ storeys up, so I couldn't hear what was said, but it looked like it was a heated discussion. Finally the guy with the megaphone walked over to his car and tossed the megaphone in the trunk. :lol:

Victory is sweet!

.

you should piss in a plastic bag, and toss it on top of them

[pintobean]

you should piss in a plastic bag, and toss it on top of them
Well if I wanted to do that, I'd have to kick out the window in my office first...and considering that the picketers would then be showered with chunks of broken glass, I think that the urine-bomb would be overkill...no? :lol:

[Pete Jones]

I wish someone would explain to me the logic behind banking sick days?

I don't have _any_ sick days.
When I'm sick, I stay home but still get paid.
If I'm not sick, I come into work and get paid.

The point is, it's a courtesy my employer extends to me and I don't abuse it.

And yes, for more serious issues there is a mechanism for short and long-term disability. I find it hard to believe that these people don't have any STD or LTD coverage.

--Pete

[weyoun]

Another example of fascist ideology at work.. you literally want to piss on the workers.

I'd report you to the police if I didn't think you were a lonely middle-aged douche who lacked the courage of his pathetic, misplaced and insincere convictions.

you should piss in a plastic bag, and toss it on top of them

[Winkle]

I'm shocked that the employees are striking in a time of deep recession. It seems that these unions don't really care that times are tough - they want what they want and that's that. It doesn't matter that it already exceeds what normal people (read: private sector) get.

I work for a bank, and I'm entitled to 8 sick days a year - 3 of which I can take as a POD (personal obligation day - practically a vacation day). Those days expire at the end of the year with no benefit to me if I take them or not. Typically I only take one or two. To think these guys get 10 more days that carry over which they can redeem as vacation at any point ON TOP of their already large vacation allotment seems like an unnecessary benefit.

I for one hope the city breaks the union on this point and really sticks it to them. Unions have gotten far too powerful for their own good; the city needs to crack down on them. Give them salary and benefits commensurate with what private garbage collectors get. Why should working benefits for a public company exceed that of a private company?

I'm in engineering, I get FIVE sick days a year. These people are nuts, 18 days a year and they're still complaining? 18 days a year that carries over and can be cashed out upon retirement? WTF?!?!?!

Unions were great in establishing worker's rights but guess what, they've done their jobs and now its time for them to go the way of the dodo, they have no place in a country that has a myriad of laws government and private organizations that defends workers rights. Unions have become a symbol of legalized extortion.

Also, Toronto City Hall needs to get its head out of its ass and do the smart thing and privatize as many of their civil services as possible, popularity of the move be damned. Look at the municipalities surrounding T.O., I know most cities within York Region contract their garbage collection to Waste Management, time for Miller to table that motion because once that happens those concessions are going to start sounding pretty good to these striking fools.

[weyoun]

Unions were great in establishing worker's rights but guess what, they've done their jobs and now its time for them to go the way of the dodo

And what's going to ensure those rights stay? The good will of major companies? Entire nations go to war to save a nickle on a gallon of gas.. what makes you think companies are more interested in their worker's health than governments are in their citizen's? How 'bout you be thankful for the protections you, your friends and family have because of unions - whether they know it or not - instead of trying to spread ignorance and hate on the Web.

[Talamasca]

I wish someone would explain to me the logic behind banking sick days?

I don't have _any_ sick days.
When I'm sick, I stay home but still get paid.
If I'm not sick, I come into work and get paid.

The point is, it's a courtesy my employer extends to me and I don't abuse it.

And yes, for more serious issues there is a mechanism for short and long-term disability. I find it hard to believe that these people don't have any STD or LTD coverage.

--Pete

My guess is that they can bank their sick days and then take a looong paid vacation. This is on top of their scheduled vacation days. My company gives me 4 or 6 (can't remember) sick days that cannot be banked and I don't take any (I've never actually missed a day of work in my life due to illness).

[UncleSteve]

Also, Toronto City Hall needs to get its head out of its ass and do the smart thing and privatize as many of their civil services as possible, popularity of the move be damned.

The reason I quoted the above is because while reading about the strike on The Star's website, I noticed, buried deep in the article, this little quote:


The privately run day care at City Hall is still open, but elsewhere, playgrounds are quiet and city-run day cares empty. Workers at all 57city daycare centres are among the workers who went out.

So, not only are TO residents getting the shaft, but the guys at City Hall aren't sharing in the pain. Oh, the hypocrisy.

[kkvvpp]

And what's going to ensure those rights stay? The good will of major companies? Entire nations go to war to save a nickle on a gallon of gas.. what makes you think companies are more interested in their worker's health than governments are in their citizen's? How 'bout you be thankful for the protections you, your friends and family have because of unions - whether they know it or not - instead of trying to spread ignorance and hate on the Web.

Didn't you just contradict your ENTIRE post with the point in bold?

I wish someone would explain to me the logic behind banking sick days?


There is absolutely 0 logic behind it. Apparently the union was quoted as saying it's beneficial to Toronto because it reduces absenteeism by rewarding the workers o_O

[Winkle]

And what's going to ensure those rights stay? The good will of major companies? Entire nations go to war to save a nickle on a gallon of gas.. what makes you think companies are more interested in their worker's health than governments are in their citizen's? How 'bout you be thankful for the protections you, your friends and family have because of unions - whether they know it or not - instead of trying to spread ignorance and hate on the Web.

Ever heard of the Ministry of Labour? The WSIB? Run a google search and you will there is a massive number of public and private organizations that keeps an eye on the treatment of employees for pretty much ever single profession and field of work in existence and that's just for Ontario alone. Hell these organizations do a much better job then any union in existence.

Am I thankful for what the unions has achieved? Yes. But it doesn't justify their continued existence. Your reasoning makes no sense. By your logic I can argue that horses revolutionized personal transportation, and by extension we should be thankful for them and show it having everyone own a horse instead of a car.

Fact is, the vast majority of unions have grown fat, lazy and bloated, they're too powerful. They have become exactly what they were originally created to oppose, now they are the bully instead of the bullied.


So, not only are TO residents getting the shaft, but the guys at City Hall aren't sharing in the pain. Oh, the hypocrisy.

Oh yes, those councillors are douchebags, they vote themselves a raise but want everyone else to take a cut... not exactly leading by example.

[hunt3rshadow]

You know what? Screw both sides. What I want is my frigging garbage picked up. I say we protest about the strike :)

Lets get everyone on the Gardiner : )

and if that doesn't work, we'll dump our garbage in front of the CUPE Offices.

PROTESTTTTTT!

[gei]

I wish someone would explain to me the logic behind banking sick days?

I don't have _any_ sick days.
When I'm sick, I stay home but still get paid.
If I'm not sick, I come into work and get paid.

The point is, it's a courtesy my employer extends to me and I don't abuse it.

And yes, for more serious issues there is a mechanism for short and long-term disability. I find it hard to believe that these people don't have any STD or LTD coverage.

--Pete

If you stay home when you're sick and you get paid, then technically you are taking a sick day.

[CSK'sMom]

Ever heard of the Ministry of Labour? The WSIB?

Now that's funny! Have you ever actually dealt with either agency?

[Winkle]

Now that's funny! Have you ever actually dealt with either agency?

Yes. Dealt with MoL twice and WSIB on a few occasions. Once when one of our guys got hurt on site, another time when they didn't like the condition of some of the safety equipment on one of our trucks. Lost count on how many times we had to deal with incredibly anal MTO safety inspectors.

[CSK'sMom]

Yes. Dealt with MoL twice and WSIB on a few occasions. Once when one of our guys got hurt on site, another time when they didn't like the condition of some of the safety equipment on one of our trucks. Lost count on how many times we had to deal with incredibly anal MTO safety inspectors.

As a worker, not as a company. :rolleyes: Try dealing with either one as a worker and then tell us if you really think this... "Hell these organizations do a much better job then any union in existence."

[weyoun]

Your reasoning makes no sense. By your logic I can argue that horses revolutionized personal transportation, and by extension we should be thankful for them and show it having everyone own a horse instead of a car.

I wasn't stating a general principle so your argument, though clearly right (that my point can't be generalized), is not applicable here. A point doesn't need to be generalizable to be right.

Right-wingers want people to take responsibility for themselves. They want the marketplace to make decisions and government to stay away. But when people use that freedom to decide to band together, suddenly it's the right-wing that wants government to step in and intervene in the marketplace, to take responsibility for the delivery of services (e.g., by forcing people back to work). Very strange.

[jstaneon]

im watching these videos on the net of the garbage workers putting stuff into the trucks, and I think they should actually be paid a lot LESS than what workers used to get years ago. I mean, those workers actually had to lift the garbage bags and bins, whereas these guys just pull the truck up, wheel the plastic bin to the truck and the truck throws out the trash.

Maybe we should give the trucks the 18 sick days since they seem to be doing the majority of the work? :lol:

[Winkle]

As a worker, not as a company. :rolleyes: Try dealing with either one as a worker and then tell us if you really think this... "Hell these organizations do a much better job then any union in existence."

I don't see why not. MoL was on us, the company, quite tightly ensuring that our worker got the correct treatment then they investigated everyone that had anything to do with the job, the worker, the company and all the subcontractors involved. The worker didn't have any complaints or issues, he told me he was interviewed once by MoL and talked to the WSIB once as well, he got his compensation trouble-free and the company even gave him a week's paid leave to recover on top.

Of course, not everyone is going to have the same experience and treatment but I thought MoL handled the situation quite fairly without bias and that is what I like to see.

[kkvvpp]

Just what the web needs, a comedian. Do you have an argument or are you just an emotional wreck with nothing to contribute but insults?

Another example of fascist ideology at work.. you literally want to piss on the workers.

I'd report you to the police if I didn't think you were a lonely middle-aged douche who lacked the courage of his pathetic, misplaced and insincere convictions.

SPREAD THE HATE

I said you contradicted yourself, I didn't resort to not name calling. Seems like someone has a learning/reading disorder, nice try ;).

Judging by the name calling, how serious you take obvious fake posts and wannabe intellectual style of writing; I'd assume you have some deep issues that need to be addressed.

I've added plenty to this thread.

[Winkle]

I wasn't stating a general principle so your argument, though clearly right (that my point can't be generalized), is not applicable here. A point doesn't need to be generalizable to be right.

Right-wingers want people to take responsibility for themselves. They want the marketplace to make decisions and government to stay away. But when people use that freedom to decide to band together, suddenly it's the right-wing that wants government to step in and intervene in the marketplace, to take responsibility for the delivery of services (e.g., by forcing people back to work). Very strange.

I'm not a right-winger, I never said anything about supporting back-to-work legislation. What I am saying is that unions in general have grown too powerful and out of control. They have no oversight and no rules or anything to keep them in line. Everything must have some degree of control, because absolute freedom and power corrupts absolutely.

[pintobean]

...Right-wingers want people to take responsibility for themselves. They want the marketplace to make decisions and government to stay away. But when people use that freedom to decide to band together, suddenly it's the right-wing that wants government to step in and intervene in the marketplace, to take responsibility for the delivery of services (e.g., by forcing people back to work). Very strange.
:arrowu:
Yet another example of unionists fudging the argument to try and make their ridiculous position look better.

You are correct to say that right-wingers want less government involvement in day-to-day tasks such as garbage collection. We want the government to contract-out that task to a private company and be done with the headache. But the only way to reach that goal is to have the government step in now and break the union, so that's why we want the government to get involved here instead of letting the strike drag on and on. You are taking one fact (that we want the government to step in) and applying your own flawed reasoning to that fact to make right-wingers look stupid.

If garbage collection ever was privatized, and those private workers then banded together, formed a union, and threatened to strike, we wouldn't want the government to step back in and take back responsibility for the delivery of the services...we'd want the government to take back the contract and give it to some other private company who could offer the service for what the government was willing to pay. It's as simple as that...

[danfromwaterloo]

And what's going to ensure those rights stay? The good will of major companies?

No, laws will.

Entire nations go to war to save a nickle on a gallon of gas..

Name one.

what makes you think companies are more interested in their worker's health than governments are in their citizen's?

Because companies without workers are bankrupt.

How 'bout you be thankful for the protections you, your friends and family have because of unions - whether they know it or not - instead of trying to spread ignorance and hate on the Web.

What has unions ever done for me, except make me pay more for just about everything that is related to them. Because of unions, Torontonians pay more in taxes, they pay more in transportation (TTC, GO, etc), they pay more to deliver parcels, to build cars...the litany goes on and on.

The days of corporate abuse have been gone for almost a century. It is actually the unions who spread ignorance and fear on the web through statements such as that which you just made.

If you think unions are so great, why don't you ask GM or Chrysler how they've fared because of unions versus Toyota or Honda.

[CSK'sMom]

I don't see why not. MoL was on us, the company, quite tightly ensuring that our worker got the correct treatment then they investigated everyone that had anything to do with the job, the worker, the company and all the subcontractors involved. The worker didn't have any complaints or issues, he told me he was interviewed once by MoL and talked to the WSIB once as well, he got his compensation trouble-free and the company even gave him a week's paid leave to recover on top.

Of course, not everyone is going to have the same experience and treatment but I thought MoL handled the situation quite fairly without bias and that is what I like to see.

Like I said, as a worker, not as a company. It's 2 very different things. Did you know that if your company decides to stiff you for a paycheque the MoL will basically tell you that it could take a year or more to get anything, if at all. Try being illegally fired and go the MoL and see what they say. What about the thousands of people on parental leave who've been illegally layed off. The MoL response was pathetic at best which is why there are politicians now taking up their cause and independently investigating.

WSIB is another whole story. Try getting hurt on the job and see what happens. Hope you have an emergency fund because you'll likely be back to work before you see a penny. Six to 12 weeks or more is not unusual. It's nothing but a farse in most cases.

[hunt3rshadow]

You know right now, if David Miller will you hire me, Ill be happy to pick up garbage for 9.50/hr. I need a summer job anyway. A lot of teenagers do. I hope he gives us a job and union shuts down : )

[danfromwaterloo]

Like I said, as a worker, not as a company. It's 2 very different things. Did you know that if your company decides to stiff you for a paycheque the MoL will basically tell you that it could take a year or more to get anything, if at all. Try being illegally fired and go the MoL and see what they say. What about the thousands of people on parental leave who've been illegally layed off. The MoL response was pathetic at best which is why there are politicians now taking up their cause and independently investigating.

WSIB is another whole story. Try getting hurt on the job and see what happens. Hope you have an emergency fund because you'll likely be back to work before you see a penny. Six to 12 weeks or more is not unusual. It's nothing but a farse in most cases.

You do know those government workers dealing with your MoL problems and WSIB are all unionized right?

If they were privatized, you'd get faster service.

[danfromwaterloo]

You know right now, if David Miller will you hire me, Ill be happy to pick up garbage for 9.50/hr. I need a summer job anyway. A lot of teenagers do. I hope he gives us a job and union shuts down : )

+10000

That's a great idea - let people who are out of work do their jobs for $2.00 less an hour!

Talk about concessions.

[Pete Jones]

There is absolutely 0 logic behind it. Apparently the union was quoted as saying it's beneficial to Toronto because it reduces absenteeism by rewarding the workers o_O

Hmmm... And I always thought that the reward for coming into work was getting paid??? I've had it wrong all this time. :D

If you stay home when you're sick and you get paid, then technically you are taking a sick day.

That's right. But I don't have a certain number that I am "allowed" per year.

I take them as I need them but that happens rarely. If I don't take a sick day in a given year, I don't believe I'm owed anything.

Sick days should be like car insurance. You don't have it with the expectation of ever using it. To extend that analogy, banking sick days is a lot like telling yourself that every couple of years you should go ahead and total your vehicle because you are "owed" it. (yes, I know it's silly but...)

--Pete

[eurasiangirl]

I think picking up garbage is hard (and smelly) work.

How much are they currently making per hour?

[hunt3rshadow]

I think picking up garbage is hard (and smelly) work.

How much are they currently making per hour?

Who cares. Im 17 years old and I dont give a damn if it smells. If david miller were to open job positions for the garbage pickup, I bet you anything all the slots would be filled. At that'll be the end to that problem, at least until summers over. Its not like I get any benefits from working at McDonalds anyway.

[CSK'sMom]

You do know those government workers dealing with your MoL problems and WSIB are all unionized right?

If they were privatized, you'd get faster service.

I doubt it. Both are bureaucratic nightmares filled with paperwork mazes...

[Emancipated]

I think picking up garbage is hard (and smelly) work.

How much are they currently making per hour?

Most communities use a garbage bin similar to the recyling bin so the actual picking up is done by the truck's fork lift. They also make $30/hr or there abouts so it's not bad pay for the type of work.

Same with TTC drivers who just drive a bus/street car/collect toll fares. I think the starting wage is around $18/hr which is still damn good. If you want any type of entry level job with decent pay, you're looking at $12-14/hr and msot of them require you have at a miniumum a diploma.

[thomsonst780]

No, laws will.



What has unions ever done for me, except make me pay more for just about everything that is related to them.

police have unions. fireman do as well. so do doctors, teachers, lawyers and builders (they call them associations to sugar coat the union name).

so you've never been helped by anyone in your life who was a doctor, cop,fireman, ambulance driver...teacher?

Perhaps if you paid more attention to your teacher you'd be better at grammar.

[kkvvpp]

I think picking up garbage is hard (and smelly) work.

How much are they currently making per hour?

More then teachers I believe.

[Bskll]

from citynews, it seems that now the striking workers are blocking garbage transfer station so people can't drop off garbage on their own.

What awesome people these union workers are. they make sure you have to deal with the garbage on your own property.

[Barayolayosa]

I"m beyond mad these days... off to draft a letter demanding my taxes back for no services provided. :cheesygri

I hope you're sending that letter to the union... they're the ones refusing to do the work.

[thomsonst780]

More then teachers I believe.

No, you are wrong.

Why would you say something you were not correct on?

[Bskll]

I doubt it. Both are bureaucratic nightmares filled with paperwork mazes...

my dad had his finger pricked while he was on the job by a piece glass. they filed a claim with WSIB and got a reply in 2 days, and he picked up the claim for medical supplies/lost work time within the week. I'd say they're pretty much on the ball. You must've had some glitchy dealings with WSIB.


police have unions. fireman do as well. so do doctors, teachers, lawyers and builders (they call they associations to sugar coat the union name).

so you've never been helped by anyone in your life who was a doctor, cop,fireman, ambulance driver...teacher?

Perhaps if you paid more attention to your teacher you'd be better at grammar.

police, firemen, doctors, teachers, lawyers are all professionalized. their "associations" serve a very different purpose than the unions of these workers. their associations are meant to limit entry into the professions, thus maintaining their respective status and pay. they don't have a large interest in settling employer/employee disputes as demand for those jobs are pretty much always above supply.

on the other hand, supply for these union job is very high while demand is low, and yet they still maintain an artificially biased system of worker compensation, so i agree with dan, What has unions ever done for me?

Toronto is pretty much the only major north American city with such a blatant union power trip.

[thomsonst780]

my dad had his finger pricked while he was on the job by a piece glass. they filed a claim with WSIB and got a reply in 2 days, and he picked up the claim for medical supplies/lost work time within the week. I'd say they're pretty much on the ball. You must've had some glitchy dealings with WSIB.




police, firemen, doctors, teachers, lawyers are all professionalized. their "associations" serve a very different purpose than the unions of these workers. their associations are meant to limit entry into the professions, thus maintaining their respective status and pay. they don't have a large interest in settling employer/employee disputes as demand for those jobs are pretty much always above supply.

on the other hand, supply for these union job is very high while demand is low, and yet they still maintain an artificially biased system of worker compensation, so i agree with dan, What has unions ever done for me?

Toronto is pretty much the only major north American city with such a blatant union power trip.


You are funny. But in a wrong stupid kind of funny way.

So police, firemen, doctors, teachers don't go on strike? Cops have in Halifax; teachers have all over the country. They have dues just like unions and barter with the gov't for wages and security. You don't like me using it as an example because it disproves what you say as puerile.

[danfromwaterloo]

police have unions. fireman do as well. so do doctors, teachers, lawyers and builders (they call they associations to sugar coat the union name).

so you've never been helped by anyone in your life who was a doctor, cop,fireman, ambulance driver...teacher?

Perhaps if you paid more attention to your teacher you'd be better at grammar.

I believe if you review my posts, you will notice I am one of the more grammar-conscious posters on this board - that was simply a mistake.

I'm asking what unions have done for me, not them. I realize that all those professions mentioned are unionized. Unions have not made them any better - only more expensive to run and harder to 'police' due to near-impossible hiring and firing practices.

I worked in the not-for-profit sector for a few years - if you actually believe associations are the same as unions, you really don't know what you're talking about.

[help_questions]

SPREAD THE HATE

I said you contradicted yourself, I didn't resort to not name calling. Seems like someone has a learning/reading disorder, nice try ;).

Judging by the name calling, how serious you take obvious fake posts and wannabe intellectual style of writing; I'd assume you have some deep issues that need to be addressed.

I've added plenty to this thread.

This is what the unions do when the public tries to stand up to them....they attack you personally because logically, you have defeated them.

:arrowu:
Yet another example of unionists fudging the argument to try and make their ridiculous position look better.

You are correct to say that right-wingers want less government involvement in day-to-day tasks such as garbage collection. We want the government to contract-out that task to a private company and be done with the headache. But the only way to reach that goal is to have the government step in now and break the union, so that's why we want the government to get involved here instead of letting the strike drag on and on. You are taking one fact (that we want the government to step in) and applying your own flawed reasoning to that fact to make right-wingers look stupid.

If garbage collection ever was privatized, and those private workers then banded together, formed a union, and threatened to strike, we wouldn't want the government to step back in and take back responsibility for the delivery of the services...we'd want the government to take back the contract and give it to some other private company who could offer the service for what the government was willing to pay. It's as simple as that...

again same thing. when the anti-union logic stands supreme, the unions start skewing the facts in an attempt to make their failed illogical position stronger.

What I want is an attempt to get garbage collected at a cheaper cost to the city. Not minimum wages, but cheaper. Every penny counts because of the recession, and every penny saved from paying these workers is a penny that will help Toronto citizens, the taxpayers at a time when government services are needed the most.

Furthermore, the labour climate for garbage collection should not impact the lives of the general public in a negative way People want their trash picked up; they don't care by whom...we just want it done. If the current employees are not willing to do for the compensation being offered, then quit and spare the citizens of Toronto this non-sense, and allow someone who IS willing to do the job for the compensation offered.


You know right now, if David Miller will you hire me, Ill be happy to pick up garbage for 9.50/hr. I need a summer job anyway. A lot of teenagers do. I hope he gives us a job and union shuts down : )

This is the type of post that needs to be emailed to every media outlet (CP24, CTV, GLOBAL, TORSTAR, THE SUN, ETC.) Emails like this will weaken the position of the union and get the view of us citizens into the mainstream media. Also send this type of stuff to the Mayor, and provincial government so that they will see that it is time for government intervention to fix this insane situation and make the wages and benefits that this union gets fair, especially considering the economic downturn.

[thomsonst780]

I worked in the not-for-profit sector for a few years - if you actually believe associations are the same as unions, you really don't know what you're talking about.

Nope; associations and unions are interchangeable except most union members don't have the cache and wardrobe as teachers or cops or lawyers. They are are part of group that is organized and paid to get the most for its members. In fact most associations aka teachers could teach unions a thing or two on playing hardball. They are both elitist in their own way; but they function the same.

And I call bs on your statement that no one from those organizations have ever done anything for you. Your level of education in this country is a direct result of teacher unions fighting for smaller classrooms and more prep time. Don't believe it? Just go south young man; I've been to Alabama for example where they have nothing in the form of unions or associations...you'd be terrified there.

[danfromwaterloo]

You are funny. But in a wrong stupid kind of funny way.

So police, firemen, doctors, teachers don't go on strike? Cops have in Halifax; teachers have all over the country. They have dues just like unions and barter with the gov't for wages and security. You don't like me using it as an example because it disproves what you say as puerile.

Doctors don't go on strike - they are a critical service. Neither do police or firemen. The best they can do is work-to-rule. But they are members of OPSEU in Ontario.

Teachers are a member of OSSTF. It's a trade union.

http://www.osstf.on.ca/about

It doesn't disprove what we say - it makes you look ignorant.

[danfromwaterloo]

Nope; associations and unions are interchangeable except most union members don't have the cache and wardrobe as teachers or cops or lawyers. They are are part of group that is organized and paid to get the most for its members. In fact most associations aka teachers could teach unions a thing or two on playing hardball. They are both elitist in their own way; but they function the same.

So, then you really have no idea what you're talking about.


And I call bs on your statement that no one from those organizations have ever done anything for you. Your level of education in this country is a direct result of teacher unions fighting for smaller classrooms and more prep time. Don't believe it? Just go south young man; I've been to Alabama for example where they have nothing in the form of unions or associations...you'd be terrified there.

I didn't say they never did anything for me - I said the union has never done anything for me. Privatized police officers would do just the same work that a unionized one would be.

[thomsonst780]

Furthermore, the labour climate for garbage collection should not impact the lives of the general public in a negative way People want their trash picked up; they don't care by whom...we just want it done. If the current employees are not willing to do for the compensation being offered, then quit and spare the citizens of Toronto this non-sense, and allow someone who IS willing to do the job for the compensation offered.


You got theory. And you got reality.

In BC that sort of happened with hospital workers. The govt tore up the contracts and fired the union people making $25 an hr and hired workers for $14.

After a year or so and more complaints about quality of service the Gov't raised the wages to $18 to get "better" employees. They got them. But the new employees realized what a rip off the job was and formed a union and now get the same plus a few benefits that the original union people who were fired by the libs.

So help_questions (wtf kind of user name is that??); I suggest you think about about what the job of picking crap is worth? Sure you may get some kids to take it up for cheaper but within a year or so they will realize what a ripoff the job is and demand more money. That's a fact. And you will just lose more money and time retraining more cheap workers who will only turn around a year or so later and demand more..because its human nature to get more when you can - whether you deserve it or not. Just ask any profession assahlete lol

[CSK'sMom]

Dan, I thought you were old enough to remember "Rae Days"? Please don't say doctor's don't strike. ;)

[kkvvpp]

No, you are wrong.

Why would you say something you were not correct on?

Why would you say I'm wrong without posting something? I said I believe, I'll happily edit my post and formally apologize if can you link me something that proves otherwise.

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one hearing the range of $50,000 - $60,000 or higher being the range for garbage men. So give or take then they are on par, make slightly more, or slightly less then teachers.

You are funny. But in a wrong stupid kind of funny way.

So police, firemen, doctors, teachers don't go on strike? Cops have in Halifax; teachers have all over the country. They have dues just like unions and barter with the gov't for wages and security. You don't like me using it as an example because it disproves what you say as puerile.

Everyone one of those professions you listed are highly skilled and highly trained. You can convert a MUCH higher percentage of the population into a garbage man then any other of those professions.

A lot of people like myself aren't anti-union. We're just against people asking for unreasonable demands that aren't justified then going on strike. They want wage increases now too lol.

[danfromwaterloo]

Dan, I thought you were old enough to remember "Rae Days"? Please don't say doctor's don't strike. ;)

I remember Rae Days - but those aren't considered "strike" days. They were manditory unpaid days for all public workers.

[thomsonst780]

I remember Rae Days - but those aren't considered "strike" days. They were manditory unpaid days for all public workers.

Doctors don't go on strike - they are a critical service. Neither do police or firemen.

And when the police went on strike in Halifax in 1980. You said police did not go on strike. Care to wiggle out of that one?

[cmge]

from citynews, it seems that now the striking workers are blocking garbage transfer station so people can't drop off garbage on their own.

What awesome people these union workers are. they make sure you have to deal with the garbage on your own property.

effing lame... ppl should just dump their garbage in front of the striking workers if they wont allow ppl to dump their trash at the transfer stations... :mad:

[danfromwaterloo]

And when the police went on strike in Halifax in 1980. You said police did not go on strike. Care to wiggle out of that one?

Police are an essential service in Ontario. They don't get to strike. Only work-to-rule.

[thomsonst780]

Police are an essential service in Ontario. They don't get to strike. Only work-to-rule.

Doctors don't go on strike - they are a critical service. Neither do police or firemen.


That is not what you said. Look at your quote. After the fact qualification? LOL

Weak sauce. Vary very weak. Pathetic actually - worthy of a gov't official.

I'd at least have the integrity to apologize for being wrong when I am wrong, but alas that is the problem with the self righteous - they can never say "sorry" I effed up.

[5dark]

police have unions. fireman do as well. so do doctors, teachers, lawyers and builders (they call they associations to sugar coat the union name).

so you've never been helped by anyone in your life who was a doctor, cop,fireman, ambulance driver...teacher?

Perhaps if you paid more attention to your teacher you'd be better at grammar.

I get the feeling doctors, police, firemen, and anyone who signed on to save lives will do as much regardless of their unionization.

And for someone who criticizes grammar, check your spacing and punctuation before you click "Submit Reply".

[thomsonst780]

I get the feeling doctors, police, firemen, and anyone who signed on to save lives will do as much regardless of their unionization.


And teachers too? And lawyers lol...And the police strike in Halifax? You'd be wrong.

[kkvvpp]

You guys should get together and form a club.


You guys get all worked up and believe what you do is so skilled, important and noble, it's so adoreable!

[CSR]

My library book is due and there is no one to scan it in! What do I do about the overdue fines?

Edit:

Toronto Public Library

Five Toronto Public Library branches located in shared facilities with City services will close for the duration of the labour dispute. They are: Armour Heights, Flemingdon Park, St. James Town, Todmorden Room and Port Union.

With the exception of the Leading to Reading program and the Settlement and Education Partnership in Toronto (SEPT) program, all programs and services normally offered at these branches will be cancelled.

The book drops at these branches will close. Fines will be waived for books due at the closed branch for the duration of the labour disruption.

http://www.toronto.ca/labour-relations/index.htm

[Bskll]

You are funny. But in a wrong stupid kind of funny way.

So police, firemen, doctors, teachers don't go on strike? Cops have in Halifax; teachers have all over the country. They have dues just like unions and barter with the gov't for wages and security. You don't like me using it as an example because it disproves what you say as puerile.

there is police unions and police associations. please don't confuse the two. the association is responsible for the professionalization of the job in question, like the The College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario, or Ontario College of Teachers. police, firemen, doctors,teachers only go on strike when their union does. if they didn't have one, they'd function just as well. they do have dues but the majority of their bartering is about keeping their jobs as a profession, not sick days or benefits. its the unions who argue about that stuff. and when did i say i don't like you using it as an example? please clarify your statements as it seems that a two year old would make more sense than you do.

[thomsonst780]

You guys get all worked up and believe what you do is so skilled, important and noble, it's so adoreable!

What are you talking about? I'm a real estate agent lol.

Man, I think you broke some sort of record on being wrong so many times in a single thread.

You are the new King!


http://blog.syracuse.com/storefront/2008/03/large_king.jpg

[5dark]

And teachers too? And lawyers lol...And the police strike in Halifax? You'd be wrong.

Alright you got me there I guess I should be more specific and say anyone who signed up to save lives and help other people (e.g. teachers) would do it regardless of their unionization.

Once unionized however I guess that **** goes right out the window. Or more specifically, they're told to throw that **** right out the window.

The original statement was "what have unions ever done for me". Not one bit. The people who are unionized have. Significant difference.

A previous job I was in had a union introduced into it and it went to ****. Not everyone in a union does it because there's a union or likes unionization. That's is the point you so clearly overlooked.

[kkvvpp]

What are you talking about? I'm a real estate agent lol.


LOL, you stilled proved my point after admitting to being a real estate agent.

[thomsonst780]

there is police unions and police associations. please don't confuse the two. the association is responsible for the professionalization of the job in question, like the The College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario, or Ontario College of Teachers. police, firemen, doctors,teachers only go on strike when their union does. if they didn't have one, they'd function just as well. they do have dues but the majority of their bartering is about keeping their jobs as a profession, not sick days or benefits. its the unions who argue about that stuff. and when did i say i don't like you using it as an example? please clarify your statements as it seems that a two year old would make more sense than you do.

Another wannabe lawyer. You are splitting hairs and missing the point. Any group which barters for its members with threat of strike action is a....union by some or association by others. The answer is "it depends".

And the point is not to slag associations or unions; the point is the concept which organizes police or doctors or garbage workers all share the same blueprint. Human beings getting together to make the most they can.

[thomsonst780]

LOL, you stilled proved my point after admitting to being a real estate agent.

Huh, where is the logic in this, are you a Local 416 guy?


Really. I am not part of local 416. You claimed I was.

You losing your mind or something?

[help_questions]

just bumping my response because this thread is pretty active.

SPREAD THE HATE

I said you contradicted yourself, I didn't resort to not name calling. Seems like someone has a learning/reading disorder, nice try ;).

Judging by the name calling, how serious you take obvious fake posts and wannabe intellectual style of writing; I'd assume you have some deep issues that need to be addressed.

I've added plenty to this thread.

This is what the unions do when the public tries to stand up to them....they attack you personally because logically, you have defeated them.

:arrowu:
Yet another example of unionists fudging the argument to try and make their ridiculous position look better.

You are correct to say that right-wingers want less government involvement in day-to-day tasks such as garbage collection. We want the government to contract-out that task to a private company and be done with the headache. But the only way to reach that goal is to have the government step in now and break the union, so that's why we want the government to get involved here instead of letting the strike drag on and on. You are taking one fact (that we want the government to step in) and applying your own flawed reasoning to that fact to make right-wingers look stupid.

If garbage collection ever was privatized, and those private workers then banded together, formed a union, and threatened to strike, we wouldn't want the government to step back in and take back responsibility for the delivery of the services...we'd want the government to take back the contract and give it to some other private company who could offer the service for what the government was willing to pay. It's as simple as that...

again same thing. when the anti-union logic stands supreme, the unions start skewing the facts in an attempt to make their failed illogical position stronger.

What I want is an attempt to get garbage collected at a cheaper cost to the city. Not minimum wages, but cheaper. Every penny counts because of the recession, and every penny saved from paying these workers is a penny that will help Toronto citizens, the taxpayers at a time when government services are needed the most.

Furthermore, the labour climate for garbage collection should not impact the lives of the general public in a negative way People want their trash picked up; they don't care by whom...we just want it done. If the current employees are not willing to do for the compensation being offered, then quit and spare the citizens of Toronto this non-sense, and allow someone who IS willing to do the job for the compensation offered.


You know right now, if David Miller will you hire me, Ill be happy to pick up garbage for 9.50/hr. I need a summer job anyway. A lot of teenagers do. I hope he gives us a job and union shuts down : )

This is the type of post that needs to be emailed to every media outlet (CP24, CTV, GLOBAL, TORSTAR, THE SUN, ETC.) Emails like this will weaken the position of the union and get the view of us citizens into the mainstream media. Also send this type of stuff to the Mayor, and provincial government so that they will see that it is time for government intervention to fix this insane situation and make the wages and benefits that this union gets fair, especially considering the economic downturn.

[nhui06]

I am a part-time City worker and represented by the union and I must say I am fed up with the union putting us on strike. Now I don't have my shifts anymore and I don't get any benefits from the sick days or whatever they are fighting for. Frankly I pay my union dues so that now they put me out of work. I don't really need my shifts cause I don't have much hours anyways, more of a side job but still. I remember in 2002 I use to work for summer camps and need the money to pay tuition, and the city had a strike and put me out of work for 2 weeks or so. My sister is in a similar situation now.

[help_questions]

I am a part-time City worker and represented by the union and I must say I am fed up with the union putting us on strike. Now I don't have my shifts anymore and I don't get any benefits from the sick days or whatever they are fighting for. Frankly I pay my union dues so that now they put me out of work. I don't really need my shifts cause I don't have much hours anyways, more of a side job but still. I remember in 2002 I use to work for summer camps and need the money to pay tuition, and the city had a strike and put me out of work for 2 weeks or so. My sister is in a similar situation now.

still, the union is costing you money.

you should share your story with the media. I am sure they would love to air your point of view. Just make sure they don't identify you, because I am sure your union "brothers" would not be nice to you.

For the sake of discussion, what if you did publicly voiced your opinion...how would your union respond to your point of view? What would they say/do to you?

[danfromwaterloo]

That is not what you said. Look at your quote. After the fact qualification? LOL

Weak sauce. Vary very weak. Pathetic actually - worthy of a gov't official.

I'd at least have the integrity to apologize for being wrong when I am wrong, but alas that is the problem with the self righteous - they can never say "sorry" I effed up.

Alright, before you get all worked up (too late, I'd say), I never said they have never gone on strike. I said they do not go on strike (current tense). Similarly, because this thread is about Toronto, I didn't bother to stipulate that I was referring to Ontario doctors, police officers and emergency responders. My apologies for assuming that we would have understood this was about Ontario. I guess I need to spell things out for you in long-hand. I guess I "effed" up in assuming you would understand the scope of what I was referring to.

The difference between an association and a union is the ability to negotiate on behalf of the members as a collective (thus the term collective bargaining). Where associations do so, they are in actuality a union. There are numerous examples of associations that do not do so - your assertion that they are one in the same is false and invalid. For example, in Ontario, Massage Therapists must belong to the Ontario Massage Therapist Association if they are to receive their RMT accreditation. Similarly, the Insurance Brokers Association of Ontario issues accreditation to Insurance Brokers - it does not represent all brokers as a union.

[nickinto]

Any lawyers here?

Is the City legally allowed to fire all of these union *******s?

[pintobean]

You got theory. And you got reality.

In BC that sort of happened with hospital workers. The govt tore up the contracts and fired the union people making $25 an hr and hired workers for $14.

After a year or so and more complaints about quality of service the Gov't raised the wages to $18 to get "better" employees. They got them. But the new employees realized what a rip off the job was and formed a union and now get the same plus a few benefits that the original union people who were fired by the libs.

So help_questions (wtf kind of user name is that??); I suggest you think about about what the job of picking crap is worth? Sure you may get some kids to take it up for cheaper but within a year or so they will realize what a ripoff the job is and demand more money. That's a fact. And you will just lose more money and time retraining more cheap workers who will only turn around a year or so later and demand more..because its human nature to get more when you can - whether you deserve it or not. Just ask any profession assahlete lol
Are you high on drugs, or just stupid?

Do you really think that non-unionized workers in the private sector think like that? (This job is a ripoff, I'm going to demand more money).

Do you really think that private sector employers act the way you've described above? (Let's just raise the wages to get better employees).

I work in a non-unionized environment. If I went to my boss and demanded more money, I'd probably be laughed at. If I quit and said that the job was a "rip-off" for the wage they were paying, they wouldn't just increase the salary blindly in an attempt to get "better" workers in the future. That's not how private sector companies work.

The private sector would look at a number of factors like the salary and skill level of the employee, and the costs associated with finding and training a replacement employee. Then they'd decide whether to give the worker a raise or let him walk away.

In the CUPE strike scenario, the government has already determined that they don't have more money to give the workers and we all know that there are an ample amount of people who are willing to do the job for less than the current pay level. If this were a private sector position, all the government would need to do now is determine whether it would cost more or less to let the current workers walk away and hire and train replacement workers.

[Winkle]

Alright, before you get all worked up (too late, I'd say), I never said they have never gone on strike. I said they do not go on strike (current tense). Similarly, because this thread is about Toronto, I didn't bother to stipulate that I was referring to Ontario doctors, police officers and emergency responders. My apologies for assuming that we would have understood this was about Ontario. I guess I need to spell things out for you in long-hand. I guess I "effed" up in assuming you would understand the scope of what I was referring to.

The difference between an association and a union is the ability to negotiate on behalf of the members as a collective (thus the term collective bargaining). Where associations do so, they are in actuality a union. There are numerous examples of associations that do not do so - your assertion that they are one in the same is false and invalid. For example, in Ontario, Massage Therapists must belong to the Ontario Massage Therapist Association if they are to receive their RMT accreditation. Similarly, the Insurance Brokers Association of Ontario issues accreditation to Insurance Brokers - it does not represent all brokers as a union.

Associations are also there to govern accreditation and practice standards. Professional Engineers Ontario is one for example, they are responsible for handing out licenses and make sure you do your job properly. If you **** up they not only take away your license they also make sure you never make another dollar as an Engineer ever again.

Are you high on drugs, or just stupid?

Do you really think that non-unionized workers in the private sector think like that? (This job is a ripoff, I'm going to demand more money).

Do you really think that private sector employers act the way you've described above? (Let's just raise the wages to get better employees).

I work in a non-unionized environment. If I went to my boss and demanded more money, I'd probably be laughed at. If I quit and said that the job was a "rip-off" for the wage they were paying, they wouldn't just increase the salary blindly in an attempt to get "better" workers in the future. That's not how private sector companies work.

The private sector would look at a number of factors like the salary and skill level of the employee, and the costs associated with finding and training a replacement employee. Then they'd decide whether to give the worker a raise or let him walk away.

In the CUPE strike scenario, the government has already determined that they don't have more money to give the workers and we all know that there are an ample amount of people who are willing to do the job for less than the current pay level. If this were a private sector position, all the government would need to do now is determine whether it would cost more or less to let the current workers walk away and hire and train replacement workers.

Exactly. I think the issue is a government-running a non-unionized work group, technically its not privatized. I don't see why fully privatized civil services wouldn't work, in fact they do. Garbage collection is most cities within York Region is handled by the company Waste Management, they pay their guys well with benefits, we get good service and have never been held hostage by them or their workers.

You also can't cite one or two failed examples out of many as justification for never trying something again.

[kiasu]

Now I don't know what to do with my garbage...:(
Keep in the house??:(

I don't want to drive and deliver the trash ...:cry:

What's the list of depots? I don't want flies and maggots near my home.

i would suggest just throw them at the park or anywhere in TO. we pay the money and are not getting any services. so throw in the park or road and let those lazy union to do the job after the strike. yes, you may think i am crazy or not right but please check who starts the war first..the UNION...unless they refund part of the property tax money to us. :evil:

by the way, i heard one of their demand is they want to carry forward their sick day...what a lazy and useless ppl...just fire all of them..

nowadays, UNION = EVIL...they are not like last time..they are abusing the power...

[nickinto]

MAIL your trash to Local 416...let those lazy sob's deal with it:

Toronto Civic Employees Union, Local 416
110 Laird Drive, Toronto ON M4G 3V3

[Winkle]

i would suggest just throw them at the park or anywhere in TO. we pay the money and are not getting any services. so throw in the park or road and let those lazy union to do the job after the strike. yes, you may think i am crazy or not right but please check who starts the war first..the UNION...unless they refund part of the property tax money to us. :evil:

by the way, i heard one of their demand is they want to carry forward their sick day...what a lazy and useless ppl...just fire all of them..

nowadays, UNION = EVIL...they are not like last time..they are abusing the power...

That's not productive and isn't going to help anyone. If you really want to protest, just take your garbage to the collection facilities and do things yourself. Don't complain, don't do anything stupid, just carry on with things and tell your city councilors to hold fast and steady and that you're willing to endure through this mess if it means it will make the unions wake up to reality.

[kiasu]

That's not productive and isn't going to help anyone. If you really want to protest, just take your garbage to the collection facilities and do things yourself. Don't complain, don't do anything stupid, just carry on with things and tell your city councilors to hold fast and steady and that you're willing to endure through this mess if it means it will make the unions wake up to reality.

i dont understand...everyone knows this shouldnt happen..D.M knows..you know..i know...why they just cant take the legal action and force them back to work? WHY? same like TTC onstrike...why must after after few weeks? Why? Eventually they must go back to work..

so, let say if gov doesnt give a shXt, they r not going back to work forever?
no right? so, no matter how...just enforce the rule or law or whatever and make them back to work next day to have 0 day strike..

[nickinto]

Here is a list of stewards with CUPE:

Here are all of the Stewards in the selected Unit.
Unit Steward
Solid Waste Adrian Denieffe INGRAM - Transfer
Solid Waste Alex Gibson BERMONDSEY - Collections
Solid Waste Ben DeSousa INGRAM - Collections
Solid Waste Bill Steele COMMISSIONER TRANSFER
Solid Waste Bob Mushikori SCARBOROUGH TRANSFER
Solid Waste Brian Demareski BERMONDSEY - Collections
Solid Waste Danny Mamczur VICTORIA PARK TRANSFER
Solid Waste Domenic Pallario INGRAM - Collections
Solid Waste Gene Collins INGRAM - Collections
Solid Waste George Horvat DISCO - HAULAGE
Solid Waste James Adamo MORNINGSIDE - Collections
Solid Waste Jason Waine INGRAM - Transfer
Solid Waste Keith Pedersen DUFFERIN - Maintainence
Solid Waste Louie Teti BERMONDSEY - Collections
Solid Waste Mark Tucker ELLESMERE - Collections
Solid Waste Noel Andrews YONGE STREET
Solid Waste Rene Grenier YONGE STREET
Solid Waste Robin Cooper FINCH YARD
Solid Waste Sean Kelly INGRAM - Nights
Solid Waste Ted Proios BERMONDSEY - Collections
Solid Waste Ty Hemmings BERMONDSEY - Nights
Solid Waste Umberto Parisi INGRAM - Collections
Solid Waste Vacant SCARBOROUGH HAULAGE
Solid Waste VACANT DISCO TRANSFER
Solid Waste Vacant ELLESMERE - Collections
Solid Waste Vacant MORNINGSIDE - Collections
Solid Waste Vacant DUFFERIN - HAULAGE
Solid Waste Vacant DUFFERIN - TRANSFER
Solid Waste Vic Grima BERMONDSEY - Transfer
Solid Waste Walter Maryniuk DISCO/ELLESMERE-Support
Solid Waste Wayne Samanica COMMISSIONER - HAULAGE

[danfromwaterloo]

So help_questions (wtf kind of user name is that??); I suggest you think about about what the job of picking crap is worth? Sure you may get some kids to take it up for cheaper but within a year or so they will realize what a ripoff the job is and demand more money. That's a fact. And you will just lose more money and time retraining more cheap workers who will only turn around a year or so later and demand more..because its human nature to get more when you can - whether you deserve it or not. Just ask any profession assahlete lol

Some jobs in this world are "leftover jobs" - jobs people who have no other choice go to. When you're in high school and your guidance teacher asks you "What do you want to be?", nobody says a garbageman. But, lo and behold, there are garbagemen. I'm all for paying equitably, but let's realize that picking up trash is not a skilled profession. When those "kids" demand more money, hire a whole slew of new ones.

There will always be someone to pick up trash. We don't need to pay them an exorbitant salary and benefits to retain "top trash talent".

[hunt3rshadow]

Come on David Miller, get those "HIRING" ads out. :twisted:

[danfromwaterloo]

Associations are also there to govern accreditation and practice standards. Professional Engineers Ontario is one for example, they are responsible for handing out licenses and make sure you do your job properly. If you **** up they not only take away your license they also make sure you never make another dollar as an Engineer ever again.

Right - they do not negotiate on behalf of engineers though. His previous assertion was that associations and unions were one in the same.

It's important to note that PEO will simply ensure you are no longer a P.Eng. You can still get a job in a engineer-like capacity; you just can't sign drawings and other official P.Eng. stuff.

[DuDe1411]

what would the world be without the union today...

[Winkle]

i dont understand...everyone knows this shouldnt happen..D.M knows..you know..i know...why they just cant take the legal action and force them back to work? WHY? same like TTC onstrike...why must after after few weeks? Why? Eventually they must go back to work..

so, let say if gov doesnt give a shXt, they r not going back to work forever?
no right? so, no matter how...just enforce the rule or law or whatever and make them back to work next day to have 0 day strike..

If they legislate back to work laws and force them back to work, the dispute immediately goes into arbitration with a third party, who usually tends to side with the unions in the past and give them what they want, translation: if the city goes into arbitration they will most likely lose.

I'm willing to bet the union wants to be legislated back to work so they have to go to arbitration where they have a better chance of getting what they want but I digress.

Either way, both sides are sprouting BS, but there's no denying the union is being greedy regardless of what they say and asking for entirely unreasonable things. They say the recession is not enough of an excuse to justify them giving any concessions... then what the hell is? A full blown depression and collapse of the economy? Gimme a break.

They say they're protesting because the city councilors gave themselves a raise so why should the workers have to suffer too? Okay I get that, but why hold the rest of the city hostage? It's completely stupid, are you actually punishing the politicians or are you punishing Torontonians in general? Its like the teachers going on strike when I was in school, they told us they were defending our right to quality education but who were the ones that lost out? Not the politicians, most of whom are still in office. Not the teachers who all got a big fat raise and cushier jobs, but the students who lost several weeks of school and education that we never got back.

Anyway, strike-action back in the early days of unions were about worker's rights to be treated fairly, nowadays strike-actions are all about greedy and egos.

[501]

yuck teh city is going to smell with all this garbage around in this hot weather.

[Winkle]

Right - they do not negotiate on behalf of engineers though. His previous assertion was that associations and unions were one in the same.

It's important to note that PEO will simply ensure you are no longer a P.Eng. You can still get a job in a engineer-like capacity; you just can't sign drawings and other official P.Eng. stuff.

Yea, but that really gimps you on what you can do ;)

what would the world be without the union today...

Again, past achievements does not justify present existence or needs. I'm not trashing unions for what they did, I'm trashing them for what they're doing now. Like I said, I can say "where would the world be without the telegraph and morse code?", but your logic we should go back to that instead of cell phones and the internet.

[Chr1s]

I hope you're sending that letter to the union... they're the ones refusing to do the work.

Why? Can the Union physically give me my money back? Who is the fiduciary agent? Who holds the money in trust for the services tendered? The City of Toronto is, and has that duty and obligation.

No service means no payment should be due, and if payment has been made or will be made in the form of taxes, then a refund is owed to taxpayers.

I did not consent to being held hostage, forced to pay for service, and have no service provided for my consideration. That is theft, and breach of public trust.

Either I get the refund owed, or I will deduct X dollars from the 'property tax' for due cause and consideration, and they can attempt to 'sue' me for it.

Then they (the City and the Union) can haggle it out as long as they like. I will not be held hostage to this ongoing, never-ending dispute during their contract 'negotiations' and strike positions.

It is my opinion, that the City has failed as the fiduciary agent to the taxpayer, and the Union has failed to perform. It's time to terminate them both.

[nickinto]

Here is Mark's direct phone #: 416-602-8561

Give him a call and tell him what you THINK!!!

[Mugen123]

at a time like this, they are bitching and moaning about 18 sick days that they can save up and cash out?? only thing they should get is a coke and a smile i'll be more than happy to take over for the summer

[Bskll]

Another wannabe lawyer. You are splitting hairs and missing the point. Any group which barters for its members with threat of strike action is a....union by some or association by others. The answer is "it depends".

And the point is not to slag associations or unions; the point is the concept which organizes police or doctors or garbage workers all share the same blueprint. Human beings getting together to make the most they can.

clearly the concept between association and unions is lost on you. I don't see doctors and teachers threatening to not treat patients for a week or teach kids for a year over their pay/sick leave. only unions barters for its member by threat of strike. Associations do not. after all, their member's are highly in demand and the supply is short. union members however, are not highly in demand and supply is plenty. after all, all it takes to enter a union is some yearly dues and showing up to work. the answer is not it depends, the answer is "clearly different"

certainly at the principle level unions and associations share origins but that is where they start to split. union tactics are borderline bullying while association at least show some level of reasonable logic.

[I am XeNo]

Does anyone even know why they get 18 sick days? It disgusts me how people are so ignorant.

The only reason they have 18 sick days per year is because they DO NOT HAVE SHORT-TERM DISABILITY. They get to bundle there sick days because if they get sick (cancer, heart-attack etc.) they have to use their sick days. If they use all their sick days before they get seriously sick, THEY GET NOTHING FOR 6 MONTHS until long-term disability kicks in.

[Bskll]

That's not productive and isn't going to help anyone. If you really want to protest, just take your garbage to the collection facilities and do things yourself. Don't complain, don't do anything stupid, just carry on with things and tell your city councilors to hold fast and steady and that you're willing to endure through this mess if it means it will make the unions wake up to reality.

I really wish this was an option, but according to city tv news, the strikers are now blocking transfer stations, meaning home owners gotta basically pile garbage on their side walk.

[help_questions]

Does anyone even know why they get 18 sick days? It disgusts me how people are so ignorant.

The only reason they have 18 sick days per year is because they DO NOT HAVE SHORT-TERM DISABILITY. They get to bundle there sick days because if they get sick (cancer, heart-attack etc.) they have to use their sick days. If they use all their sick days before they get seriously sick, THEY GET NOTHING FOR 6 MONTHS until long-term disability kicks in.

Who cares? no matter what they get or why they get it, we are in a recession and they need to take a cut. Even the greedy CAW took a cut; this union needs to take a cut....period. Furthermore, the cuts should be inline with their skills and education, meaning the garbage men need to lose more than the paramedics, because the paramedics are actually skilled and educated. The garbage men, well, they are just garbage men.

It disgusts me that we give garbage men raises in the first place.

[5dark]

I really wish this was an option, but according to city tv news, the strikers are now blocking transfer stations, meaning home owners gotta basically pile garbage on their side walk.

We should dump it on the picket lines.
I hope the irony of an eventual repugnant pile-up won't be lost on them.

[Lawl and Order]

can anyone link to any official documentation on how much various union members (garbage workers, park workers, paramedics, etc.) make per hour and what they get in benefits? I am very curious

[Lawl and Order]

the police should arrest any picketers that are blocking the drop-off stations, that is ridiculous

[DuDe1411]

Again, past achievements does not justify present existence or needs. I'm not trashing unions for what they did, I'm trashing them for what they're doing now. Like I said, I can say "where would the world be without the telegraph and morse code?", but your logic we should go back to that instead of cell phones and the internet.

that's not what i was saying.. they were of use in the past to fight for the rights and work condition and what's not.... todays union are greedy effing.
their motto seems to be work less earn more.

I always believe you earn your paycheck...

[bluga]

I read somewhere those garbage collectors make 50,000+ per year.

[I am XeNo]

can anyone link to any official documentation on how much various union members (garbage workers, park workers, paramedics, etc.) make per hour and what they get in benefits? I am very curious

I would be more interested in a post showing the raise that the city councillors recieved. They have obviously been doing an amazing job in the recent years!

[thoughts]

the demands are outrageous, considering when they are sick I bet they just use a vacation day to avoid using sick days. That way they bank them.... 25 sick days times their daily salary ? thats a lot of money........... 5 days is normal for mos of us slaves, I guess I'd give em 10 days since theyre working for the city.

Regarding the job / Garbage collection, filthy job... wuldnt do it not even for 75K... those morons dont even wear masks, I would wear a damn gas mask , with all these diseases, flus, viruses and such goiung around... theyre front line...

If I lived in Toronto I wouldnt give a damn, just dump the damn garbage... put the garbage in ya car when u leave for work, and when u drive by a garbage bin behind a store plaza then just dump it, throw it in a park, side of a rural road... whatever... lol I do it all the time hahaha

[Bskll]

the demands are outrageous, considering when they are sick I bet they just use a vacation day to avoid using sick days. That way they bank them.... 25 sick days times their daily salary ? thats a lot of money........... 5 days is normal for mos of us slaves, I guess I'd give em 10 days since theyre working for the city.

Regarding the job / Garbage collection, filthy job... wuldnt do it not even for 75K... those morons dont even wear masks, I would wear a damn gas mask , with all these diseases, flus, viruses and such goiung around... theyre front line...

If I lived in Toronto I wouldnt give a damn, just dump the damn garbage... put the garbage in ya car when u leave for work, and when u drive by a garbage bin behind a store plaza then just dump it, throw it in a park, side of a rural road... whatever... lol I do it all the time hahaha

clearly you haven't been paid minimum wage in your life.

[jl319]

the demands are outrageous, considering when they are sick I bet they just use a vacation day to avoid using sick days. That way they bank them.... 25 sick days times their daily salary ? thats a lot of money........... 5 days is normal for mos of us slaves, I guess I'd give em 10 days since theyre working for the city.

Regarding the job / Garbage collection, filthy job... wuldnt do it not even for 75K... those morons dont even wear masks, I would wear a damn gas mask , with all these diseases, flus, viruses and such goiung around... theyre front line...

If I lived in Toronto I wouldnt give a damn, just dump the damn garbage... put the garbage in ya car when u leave for work, and when u drive by a garbage bin behind a store plaza then just dump it, throw it in a park, side of a rural road... whatever... lol I do it all the time hahaha

I applaud u:lol:

[Lawl and Order]

the demands are outrageous, considering when they are sick I bet they just use a vacation day to avoid using sick days. That way they bank them.... 25 sick days times their daily salary ? thats a lot of money........... 5 days is normal for mos of us slaves, I guess I'd give em 10 days since theyre working for the city.

Regarding the job / Garbage collection, filthy job... wuldnt do it not even for 75K... those morons dont even wear masks, I would wear a damn gas mask , with all these diseases, flus, viruses and such goiung around... theyre front line...

If I lived in Toronto I wouldnt give a damn, just dump the damn garbage... put the garbage in ya car when u leave for work, and when u drive by a garbage bin behind a store plaza then just dump it, throw it in a park, side of a rural road... whatever... lol I do it all the time hahahafor a user with the name "thoughts", it's pretty clear you don't do a lot of thinking

[CSR]

My friend is telling me they are paying $40 for 4 hours of picketing... lol

[offroadaction]

A few thoughts...

I just watched an interview on CP24 and it was mentioned that the city union workers get paid an average of 12% more than people doing the same job in the real world. They also have 100% dental no matter what the fix is, not to mention the crazy 18 trasferable sick days.

I was laid off a month ago. I would definatly join the other poster and do it for a hell of a lot less than the union guys are.

In regards to the same sick leave for everyone, I do believe that the garbage workers should get the same amount of sick days as paramedics. Have you seen what kind of scary crap is in garbages? Imagine being exposed to that all day?

I think unions had their place years ago, but to go strike because the city does not want you to carry over your 18 sick days per year to the next year is incredible. I know there is a lot of other reasons, but like I said, I would glady take any job I can right now, even garbage pickup. MOST unions have to step back and see how it is in the real world.

[Whitedart]

You're paid based on your worth to society, and CUPE members are worth very little (except for a few specialized industries).

If CUPE members are worth so little, why so much complaining here about them oging off the job?


In theory, they can accumulate enough sick days to take half a year or a full year off work. Is this what they're picketing about? No job on god's green earth has that kind of benefit.

Oh, let me see, Police, firefighters, teachers(?) to name a few.

It's really scary that a little inconvenience - not even that, but the mere fear of inconvenience - turns Canadians into Nazis willing to revoke fundamental freedoms. Pathetic.

Yes it is. Just a repeat of the same attitude that occurred when they thought the TTC would go on strike.

I wish someone would explain to me the logic behind banking sick days?

I don't have _any_ sick days.
When I'm sick, I stay home but still get paid.
If I'm not sick, I come into work and get paid.

The point is, it's a courtesy my employer extends to me and I don't abuse it.

And yes, for more serious issues there is a mechanism for short and long-term disability. I find it hard to believe that these people don't have any STD or LTD coverage.

Because your employer uses an insurance plan to replace these banked sick days. Being in those CUPE locals, they don't.

I have seen other cases where these banked days were slowly removed. All new hires were placed onto STD and LTD insurance. Gradually, the older employees were retired and their banked days were bought out with a maximum number of allowable banked days. The only remaining group were firefighters, who keep them through binding arbitration.

I suspect Toronto is trying to do the same, but need to come up with a workable plan to eliminate the banked days over a number of years.

If you stay home when you're sick and you get paid, then technically you are taking a sick day.

I do, and you may, but without banked days, those CUPE members don't.


Regarding the job / Garbage collection, filthy job... wuldnt do it not even for 75K... those morons dont even wear masks, I would wear a damn gas mask , with all these diseases, flus, viruses and such goiung around... theyre front line...

I wouldn't to it either, but then I don't complain about what they are paid as long as they do their job.

But really, out of 6,000 outside workers, I suspect there may be about 200, maybe 300 that work on garbage collection, yet such a HUGE fuss is being made about garbage.

Everyone forgets about the parks & recreation staff (no pools open) paramedics (with supervisory staff manning ambulances), etc, etc.

If I lived in Toronto I wouldnt give a damn, just dump the damn garbage... put the garbage in ya car when u leave for work, and when u drive by a garbage bin behind a store plaza then just dump it, throw it in a park, side of a rural road... whatever... lol I do it all the time hahaha

Yes, that's the attitude. Think of the overtime these strikers will get when they return to work cleaning up all this dumped garbage. They will be thanking each and every one of you dumpers.

[Lawl and Order]

If CUPE members are worth so little, why so much complaining here about them oging off the job?


Maybe because the combination of them being in a union and working for city prohibits them from being replaced by a huge quantity of unemployed people that are available and willing to do the same unskilled labour for the same pay without the ridiculous benefits package?

[Whitedart]

Maybe because the combination of them being in a union and working for city prohibits them from being replaced by a huge quantity of unemployed people that are available and willing to do the same unskilled labour for the same pay without the ridiculous benefits package?

If you happened to be in that union and a Toronto employee, would you not want to retain the benefits you received, or would you be willing to give them up for the benefit of the economy?

[Lawl and Order]

If you happened to be in that union and a Toronto employee, would you not want to retain the benefits you received, or would you be willing to give them up for the benefit of the economy?this would probably sound crazy to you, but yes, because it was insane to begin with

[Emancipated]

this would probably sound crazy to you, but yes, because it was insane to begin with

Did you type that with a straight face? Fact is, we all agree it's too high but them asking for more in these tough times is a slap in the face. I hope we don't give them a dime. Unfortunately with the government giving themselves a raise these people are just following suite.

We all complain about Comrade Miller and want him ousted but that's a more complicated process and these trash pickers doing the same now, we're all asking for their heads on a platter but we all know the city will crumble and give them something like we always do. It's always the little guys that loses out.

[Whitedart]

this would probably sound crazy to you, but yes, because it was insane to begin with

I don't disagree that this sick plan has become dated with currently available insurance plans, but it was very common some time back and as I pointed out above, is still very much in use with certain groups.

[Lawl and Order]

Did you type that with a straight face? Fact is, we all agree it's too high but them asking for more in these tough times is a slap in the face. I hope we don't give them a dime. Unfortunately with the government giving themselves a raise these people are just following suite.

We all complain about Comrade Miller and want him ousted but that's a more complicated process and these trash pickers doing the same now, we're all asking for their heads on a platter but we all know the city will crumble and give them something like we always do. It's always the little guys that loses out.
what do you mean did I type that with a straight face? are you sure you quoted the right person? I said I would be able to give up 18 vac. days a year that you can accumulate until retirement, that's ridiculous

[Whitedart]

Do you think regular workers are given the 'option' of getting laid off, or having their wages cut back?

We don't live in a fairy tale - this is the real world you f*cking stupid idiot.

Maybe those regular workers should look into a different line of work.

But, please continue, and get the thread locked.

[nickinto]

Maybe those regular workers should look into a different line of work.

How interesting that you say this - Because that's precisely how the public feels about the striking City workers: If they don't like their jobs or the benefits offered to them, QUIT and find another job.

[Whitedart]

We all complain about Comrade Miller and want him ousted but that's a more complicated process and these trash pickers doing the same now, we're all asking for their heads on a platter but we all know the city will crumble and give them something like we always do. It's always the little guys that loses out.

Yes, the city needs to develop a workable replacement plan for this accumulated sick time.

You can't just take it away entirely from those that have not abused the built up sick time by not using it, while others have probably used those 18 sick days per year. However, the city is probably baulking at any type of buyout, and the union then says no to changing it.

[Whitedart]

I said I would be able to give up 18 vac. days a year that you can accumulate until retirement, that's ridiculous

So you work there for 35 years, and accumulate 630 sick days if you never used any sick days during that full period of employment.

It has been stated elsewhere in this thread that a maximum of 120 days (6 months work time) could be accumulated as sick time. not all of the 630 days. The balance would be lost.

Given that very few people stay with one employer that long any more, this accumulation does not happen with the frequency that is implied here.

[MasterXan]

Did you type that with a straight face? Fact is, we all agree it's too high but them asking for more in these tough times is a slap in the face. I hope we don't give them a dime. Unfortunately with the government giving themselves a raise these people are just following suite.

We all complain about Comrade Miller and want him ousted but that's a more complicated process and these trash pickers doing the same now, we're all asking for their heads on a platter but we all know the city will crumble and give them something like we always do. It's always the little guys that loses out.

even if the government doesn't give themselves raises, the union would still want more.

look at California, which is in way worst shape than us.

Arnold doesn't want a salaray but the unions still want more. look at them now, they are about to be bankrupt. Arnold can't do any cutting cause the unions would just ***** to the great "Messiah" and take away stimulus money.

huge overpaid labor unions needs to be stopped or else we'll end up like California.

[Whitedart]

If they don't like their jobs or the benefits offered to them, QUIT and find another job.

The people that I know working for the City of Toronto do like their jobs. Many of them don't have private sector equivalents, so their salaries and benefits can't be directly compared, but they are not dissatisfied with the salaries and benefits either with none of them asking for more.

I believe it was pointed out on CP24 that the city has 18 pages of concessions they want from the union. Some concessions occur with each bargaining agreement, but it will end up with concessions from each side - city and union.

[nickinto]

Many of them don't have private sector equivalents, so their salaries and benefits can't be directly compared, but they are not dissatisfied with the salaries and benefits either with none of them asking for more.

See that's just a lie.

Etobicoke has outsourced its garbage collection to the private sector for years now. What is so special about Toronto's garbage? lol

[DuDe1411]

you know what i get for accumulating sickday? nothing...

you know how many sickday i get? not 18

do i complain about my job... sure i do, i hate my job. but i work hard to earn my wages.

[CSK'sMom]

Interesting tidbit buried in the news coverage tonight...

For all those that think Miller is going to come to your rescue... You might like to know he walked the line with the striking workers last time around when it happened under Lastman. :lol: I wouldn't count on Dalton either, he hasn't stepped in as of yet in Windsor.

[nickinto]

Interesting tidbit buried in the news coverage tonight...

For all those that think Miller is going to come to your rescue... You might like to know he walked the line with the striking workers last time around when it happened under Lastman. :lol: I wouldn't count on Dalton either, he hasn't stepped in as of yet in Windsor.

If we had decent leadership, we would do what Reagan did with the Air Traffic Controllers and fire their asses.

[Whitedart]

See that's just a lie.

Etobicoke has outsourced its garbage collection to the private sector for years now. What is so special about Toronto's garbage? lol

And how can you say that's a lie when you have no idea who I am referring to. There are many other jobs beside garbage collectors involved here, that may be 5% of the 6,000 outside workers. There are another 18,000 inside workers included here as well. Did you not read the list of OTHER services that are affected by the strike besides garbage?

But on your other point, Peel Region privatized garbage collection many years ago like Etobicoke. And Mississauga has privatized a number of other tasks to do with road maintenance and snow clearing. That doesn't mean those workers receive any less pay or benefits, aside from the sick leave plan.
Why hasn't Toronto privatized their waste collection? I don't know, but the private workers in Peel are still unionized.

[Whitedart]

Interesting tidbit buried in the news coverage tonight...

For all those that think Miller is going to come to your rescue... You might like to know he walked the line with the striking workers last time around when it happened under Lastman. :lol:

Yes, he showed support for CUPE 7 years ago, and they in turn provided support for him as Mayor.


I wouldn't count on Dalton either, he hasn't stepped in as of yet in Windsor.

But TO has more ridings, and more Liberal support from voters. If the strike lasts more than 10-14 days, I am sure they will be legislated back to work with an arbitrator.

[CSK'sMom]

Yes, he showed support for CUPE 7 years ago, and they in turn provided support for him as Mayor.



But TO has more ridings, and more Liberal support from voters. If the strike lasts more than 10-14 days, I am sure they will be legislated back to work with an arbitrator.

And if he steps in in the GTA and legislates them back to work he will loose any support he has in the rest of the province. He can't do it for one and not the other. GTA is not more worthy than Windsor, or anywhere else for that matter.

[help_questions]

And if he steps in in the GTA and legislates them back to work he will loose any support he has in the rest of the province. He can't do it for one and not the other. GTA is not more worthy than Windsor, or anywhere else for that matter.

I disagree. Toronto is the capital of the provice, and a huge part of Canada's economy. I can fully see Dalton legislating both Windsor and Toronto unions back to work at the same time.

Tourism is big for Toronto in the summer. Dalton can just let the garbage strike hurt Toronto's businesses. The sad part is that arbitration (which will part of back to work legislation) will likely not get the concessions that the public would like to see....if only Dalton would legislate the end of the sick day banking......that would be awsome.

[help_questions]

But TO has more ridings, and more Liberal support from voters. If the strike lasts more than 10-14 days, I am sure they will be legislated back to work with an arbitrator.

Unfortunately, an arbitration will not likely get the concessions that are in the best interests of the city and the citizens, which is everything the city is asking for.

[Whitedart]

And if he steps in in the GTA and legislates them back to work he will loose any support he has in the rest of the province. He can't do it for one and not the other. GTA is not more worthy than Windsor, or anywhere else for that matter.

I did not pay a lot of attention to the Ottawa Transit strike, but as I recall, it extended for several weeks, but TTC strike was legislated back almost right away. So they were treated differently.

[help_questions]

I did not pay a lot of attention to the Ottawa Transit strike, but as I recall, it extended for several weeks, but TTC strike was legislated back almost right away. So they were treated differently.

perfect example.

TTC walked out on a Friday, and Dalton called in the Legislature on a Sunday, and TTC was back to work on the Monday.

[Whitedart]

Unfortunately, an arbitration will not likely get the concessions that are in the best interests of the city and the citizens, which is everything the city is asking for.

The city will never get all the concession at one time, so it requires baby steps, of several concessions each time a new bargaining contract is agreed upon. And for each concession gained with CUPE, or the TTC, that concession will be used with the other unions as well, as each union will copy what others received in terms of % pay increases, changes to benefits, or privatization.

It will take time and patience to get rid of that sick plan replacing it with something else, or privatizing waste collection. But each incremental step benefits the taxpayers.

Ranting on about how you hate unions; and what is good or not good for tax payers; and not allowing collective bargaining is just not the way to go about it.

[Lawl and Order]

So you work there for 35 years, and accumulate 630 sick days if you never used any sick days during that full period of employment.

It has been stated elsewhere in this thread that a maximum of 120 days (6 months work time) could be accumulated as sick time. not all of the 630 days. The balance would be lost.

Given that very few people stay with one employer that long any more, this accumulation does not happen with the frequency that is implied here.

120 days is still a joke to me, I can understand the 18 days (this is still a hilariously high number of sick days) being carried over for 1 year...beyond that is just funny, especially the idea of being carried over a 5-10 year career and then cashing out at the end

[Whitedart]

120 days is still a joke to me, I can understand the 18 days (this is still a hilariously high number of sick days) being carried over for 1 year...beyond that is just funny, especially the idea of being carried over a 5-10 year career and then cashing out at the end

Yes, and as I indicated earlier a couple of times, it needs to be replaced with a different plan.

But if ALL unionized workers receive it, none of the unions will want to be the first to give it up.

To me, it has obviously changed over the years, as I don't recall a cap of 120 days being in place when I worked for Toronto years ago. And further, as I recall, if they were cashed in, pay out was about 50%.
But I would suspect that it is indexed to the number of years of service now, the same as vacation time is, in that the longer a period of employment, the more vacation time received, and likely the more sick days that could be cashed in. In other words, a 3 year employee would not be able to accumulate 54 days or cash in 27 of those days after only 3 years of employment.

[deuce]

I think picking up garbage is hard (and smelly) work.

How much are they currently making per hour?

24.92 per hour and it requires a DZ licence.

[tebore]

Man under Miller Toronto has become one of the crappiest cities in Canada to live in.

Taxes upon taxes, over payed fat cat unions getting more and more. We as citizens are really getting shafted. Set foot in to Vancouver and Montreal hell even the big cities in the Prairies provinces and you'll see Toronto really sucks balls.

[iceman86]

not sure if someone brought this up yet, but my concern regarding this strike is obviously the garbage i(we) will have to rid of.

because the bins can only hold so much garbage, but then you will be ultimately left with 2 option i think.

1) get rid of what u can when the strike is finally resovled and they come collect the trash -- which some may have extra garbage still laying around. for some it could be a lot trash sitting on their porch.

2) use the yellow sticker tag (i believe they valued @ $2.50). what if u dont have enough? then u need to get some more? wouldn't to get them thru city of toronto? if so.. you cant at the moment!

either way if some of us go with option 2 it would ultimately be giving them free money.

i.e $2.50 x "X amount of ppl using sticker tag"

or just leave the trash hanging around and sniff it in the morning on the way to work :(

we're all affected by this strike, but should be force to take money outta out pockets for this? what does everyone think on this?

[help_questions]

The city will never get all the concession at one time, so it requires baby steps, of several concessions each time a new bargaining contract is agreed upon. And for each concession gained with CUPE, or the TTC, that concession will be used with the other unions as well, as each union will copy what others received in terms of % pay increases, changes to benefits, or privatization.

It will take time and patience to get rid of that sick plan replacing it with something else, or privatizing waste collection. But each incremental step benefits the taxpayers.

Ranting on about how you hate unions; and what is good or not good for tax payers; and not allowing collective bargaining is just not the way to go about it.


Time and patience when the city has no money?
Hopefully the city realizes that this model cannot be salvaged and makes the decision to privatize garbage collection.

[DLFB]

I'm heated coz I cant go to my gym :mad:

Ghetto workouts here I come..

[Whitedart]

not sure if someone brought this up yet, but my concern regarding this strike is obviously the garbage i(we) will have to rid of.

because the bins can only hold so much garbage, but then you will be ultimately left with 2 option i think.

1) get rid of what u can when the strike is finally resovled and they come collect the trash -- which some may have extra garbage still laying around. for some it could be a lot trash sitting on their porch.

2) use the yellow sticker tag (i believe they valued @ $2.50). what if u dont have enough? then u need to get some more? wouldn't to get them thru city of toronto? if so.. you cant at the moment!

I would expect a tag exemption period of about 2 weeks after they return to work, as you indicate in option 1 above.

They did not have a tag program like this 7 years ago with the last garbage strike, and it took about two week to catch up on everything as I remember.

[jstaneon]

They say that the unfunded liability for these sick days is $250,000,000. :confused:

Must be nice for people with Highschool GEDs. I wont ever see close to that and Ive spent $$$$$$ on educating myself.

[Whitedart]

Time and patience when the city has no money?

Toronto has not had in the past or will likely never have in the future any extra money. For every dollar they receive, they find a new program or some new equipment to spend it on. TTC is a good example: fare increase, but then add more routes, new subway cars, new streetcars, new lines. Sure other governments fund part of it, but then TTC needs more operators, more mechanics to service additional vehicles, etc. on an ongoing basis in the future.

When I indicate time and patience, is that different than what they have done already with waste collection and their incremental baby steps?

Residents pay for waste collection in their property taxes. The new bin program is fee based, the larger the bin size, the higher the fee. Then the extra garbage tag program comes in, with a fee for extra bags over your allotted bin size.

Peel Region has done this as well, 2 bags per household per week, or pay for tags on each extra bag. Hamilton has a 1 bag limit. In another year or two, Peel will be down to 1 bag.

Hopefully the city realizes that this model cannot be salvaged and makes the decision to privatize garbage collection.

This is so much more than just garbage collectors?
Should day care attendants receive 18 sick days a year? Should a parks person that cuts grass in summer and operates a zamboni at an arena during the winter months? Should the various people that process a marriage license or a building permit? What about the skilled truck mechanic that services garbage trucks and snow plows? They are all part of these 2 CUPE locals.

[Whitedart]

They say that the unfunded liability for these sick days is $250,000,000. :confused:

It could very well be that much, but Toronto probably has over 40,000 employees, when you include police, fire, ttc, cupe, etc.

But have they budgeted any funds to cover the liability? I doubt it.

It is less costly to let staff take the time off than to pay it out in cash. If someone is away on vacation or off sick, others in that unit still have to cover the workload.

[TCWeasel]

I am a member of a union and I do work for the government. (not Toronto)

The last thing I would want to be doing right now is to be striking, but I'm only a small cog in a big machinery and while I can vote against a strike it would mean little if the leadership supports the idea of a strike. You are openly 'discouraged' from voting against what the union leadership wants. Not physical threats, but enough browbeating that you kind of lose your will.

I do get 18 sick days a year, but I've never used more than 5 or 6 in a year. I think it's absurd but there isn't much I could do about it. Theoretically I could say "Look, I don't need all these sick days, take some back". Yet, it's in the contract, I'm not allowed to do that (seriously). When you do use 5 days, you stop accumulating sick days for that year for any month in which you take a sick day. It is, however, nice to know that they're there should I become really ill. Also, you cannot use ALL of them consecutively. After a certain length of time of being off, you go on long term disability (same for private or public). It used to be that you would be paid out for unused sick time, though only a percentage of the unused sick time. This is no longer the case.

All government employees do not get the same contracts, even in the same government (be it Toronto, Vancouver, et al). Therefore paramedics don't necessarily have the same kind of contract as a garbage collector.

I don't believe I am overpaid. I could likely make more in the private sector, but I like my job, have job security and a good pension plan. Money would be nice, but it isn't everything. And yes, I cannot get a raise simply because I'm doing a much better job than Joe Slacker down the hall. You're paid based on your position and your length of employment.

I've seen the union help protect the job of those who would have otherwise lost their job for things which should have never constituted a threat to that job. On the flipside, I've seen them protect someone who deserved to be fired long ago. Sadly, that's what they must do though. It is frustrating to see someone who continues to give your department a bad name remain part of the department.

So while some may wish to vilify CUPE members, I do think it is unfair to paint us all with the same brush. We're not all money hungry individuals looking to take a month worth of sick time a year off. I do not have the option of opting out of the union. I definitely am not fond of paying union dues. So union members deserve to be criticized, but not all.

Would our union make concessions during this time of economic uncertainty? Yes, the union is making concessions.

[help_questions]

I am a member of a union and I do work for the government. (not Toronto)

The last thing I would want to be doing right now is to be striking, but I'm only a small cog in a big machinery and while I can vote against a strike it would mean little if the leadership supports the idea of a strike. You are openly 'discouraged' from voting against what the union leadership wants. Not physical threats, but enough browbeating that you kind of lose your will.

I do get 18 sick days a year, but I've never used more than 5 or 6 in a year. I think it's absurd but there isn't much I could do about it. Theoretically I could say "Look, I don't need all these sick days, take some back". Yet, it's in the contract, I'm not allowed to do that (seriously). When you do use 5 days, you stop accumulating sick days for that year for any month in which you take a sick day. It is, however, nice to know that they're there should I become really ill. Also, you cannot use ALL of them consecutively. After a certain length of time of being off, you go on long term disability (same for private or public). It used to be that you would be paid out for unused sick time, though only a percentage of the unused sick time. This is no longer the case.

All government employees do not get the same contracts, even in the same government (be it Toronto, Vancouver, et al). Therefore paramedics don't necessarily have the same kind of contract as a garbage collector.

I don't believe I am overpaid. I could likely make more in the private sector, but I like my job, have job security and a good pension plan. Money would be nice, but it isn't everything. And yes, I cannot get a raise simply because I'm doing a much better job than Joe Slacker down the hall. You're paid based on your position and your length of employment.

I've seen the union help protect the job of those who would have otherwise lost their job for things which should have never constituted a threat to that job. On the flipside, I've seen them protect someone who deserved to be fired long ago. Sadly, that's what they must do though. It is frustrating to see someone who continues to give your department a bad name remain part of the department.

So while some may wish to vilify CUPE members, I do think it is unfair to paint us all with the same brush. We're not all money hungry individuals looking to take a month worth of sick time a year off. I do not have the option of opting out of the union. I definitely am not fond of paying union dues. So union members deserve to be criticized, but not all.

Would our union make concessions during this time of economic uncertainty? Yes, the union is making concessions.

Sorry to say this, but it is the truth.
When one union holds the general public hostage, citizens turn against the labour movement as a whole.

My anti-union views emerged during the YorkU strike, were I was denied the education I paid for. Now another CUPE union wants to inconvenience the entire city of Toronto. Because of their selfishness, people will HATE CUPE as a whole. Then your Ontario President Sid Ryan will come on TV and say something brilliant, which will get CUPE more scorn from the public.

Bottom line, citizens will hate unions/CUPE as a whole because of the actions of individual locals....but really, that is the fault of your unionized "brothers and sisters"

[Think]

If city workers cross the picket line then they can be prosecuted under union regulations and face there "brothers and sisters" for discipline.

A small minority of the workers that do want to work have no choice but to picket.

As far as I am concerned, this is all just a bunch of smoke and mirrors. Miller will come out of this looking like a hero because Torontonians cannot handle the incovenience and the city will meet 80% of there concessions to end the strike in 1 week.

Torontonians don't have any balls at all.

[KorruptioN]

My anti-union views emerged during the YorkU strike, were I was denied the education I paid for.

You did finish your school year, did you not?

[help_questions]

Miller will come out of this looking like a hero because Torontonians cannot handle the incovenience and the city will meet 80% of there concessions to end the strike in 1 week.

Torontonians don't have any balls at all.[/B]

Exactly. Torontonians need to endure this strike for as long as possible. Remember, the workers are only getting strike pay, which is far less than their regular wages. A few missed mortgage payments, late fees, car repos and forclosures, and this greedy union will fold.

The longer we hold out, the weaker they will become. Together, Torontonians can crush this union, whose wages continue to erode the city services we ALL use.

[KorruptioN]

The longer we hold out, the weaker they will become.

You don't live in Toronto.

[Asmegin]

My dad, who works in Parks and Rec for Toronto, isn't happy about the strike...

BUT on the issue of sicks days...all this talk about banking 10+ years of sick days is ridiculous. No one does that. The usual days banked is 4-5, because these guys work outside and get sick a lot.

Yeah, they do have great benefits though...but that's like all government jobs.

To the people saying "I'd do the job for much less, even nothing!":

That is ridiculous. I'm sure there are people who would do your job for $2/hour. Does that mean you should be fired?


So glad I don't live in Toronto tho :lol::lol:

[MasterXan]

You don't live in Toronto.

so what? he's right. stand up to the unions so they'll think twice before striking again.

are you a union shill?

[MasterXan]

My dad, who works in Parks and Rec for Toronto, isn't happy about the strike...

BUT on the issue of sicks days...all this talk about banking 10+ years of sick days is ridiculous. No one does that. The usual days banked is 4-5, because these guys work outside and get sick a lot.

Yeah, they do have great benefits though...but that's like all government jobs.

To the people saying "I'd do the job for much less, even nothing!":

That is ridiculous. I'm sure there are people who would do your job for $2/hour. Does that mean you should be fired?


So glad I don't live in Toronto tho :lol::lol:

Yes.

[xstatik]

Man under Miller Toronto has become one of the crappiest cities in Canada to live in.

Taxes upon taxes, over payed fat cat unions getting more and more. We as citizens are really getting shafted. Set foot in to Vancouver and Montreal hell even the big cities in the Prairies provinces and you'll see Toronto really sucks balls.

+1000
So True

[KorruptioN]

are you a union shill?

No. I'd like to take more of a neutral stance here... but my issue is with extremists on either side of the fence who don't know know anything other than to ignorantly bash. Somebody doesn't agree with you? You must call them a shill!

[slowtyper]

There is a guy in my hood picking up garbage for $3 a bag. Smart guy!

[Broseph]

Banking sick days??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I'm given 10 sick days a year. Also 10 personal days. I think I should be able to bank those also. So after 5 years assuming I haven't used any I would have 50 sick days, 50 personal days. On top of that I would still have my 3 weeks vacation. This makes total sense. I want to start my own union and strike.

[Deal-lon]

There is a guy in my hood picking up garbage for $3 a bag. Smart guy!

That guy deserves the Nobel Prize for his ingenuity and enterprising nature. I wonder if his "union" will force him to go out on strike? :cheesygri

[danfromwaterloo]

I think we as a city can overcome this garbage strike, and potentially make some money.

If you work out how much it costs per kilo for garbage in, say, a Peel dump, and you figure out gas and stuff, you can rent a u-haul for maybe $100, get a few hundred garbage bags worth of garbage @ $3.00 a bag, and dump it in another region's garbage dump (assuming you're a resident of another region). You could make tons of money that way, and I'm sure most TO residents wouldn't mind paying $10 a week for the next two or three weeks to ensure a non-smelly household.

[jstaneon]

It could very well be that much, but Toronto probably has over 40,000 employees, when you include police, fire, ttc, cupe, etc.

But have they budgeted any funds to cover the liability? I doubt it.


Absolutely not. And guess where that money will and CONTINUE to come from......mine and your own pocket through increased taxes. Even the pockets of the people on strike. They dont realize that these silly little concessions will actually save them money in the long run.

I did a quick calculation (very general calc) based on the 40,000 employees and I estimate there is 31 sick days banked per employee. This assumes that all of those 40,000 employees are entitled to them (which Im not sure it is the case) and they all make the previously mentioned $24.94/hr rate (which probably isnt the case, but we are talking averages here).

$250,000,000M / 40,000 employees = $6,250 per employee
$6,250 / $24.92 hourly rate = 250 sick hours
250 hours / 8 hours per day = 31 sick days banked per employee

[cmge]

That guy deserves the Nobel Prize for his ingenuity and enterprising nature. I wonder if his "union" will force him to go out on strike? :cheesygri

:lol:

[WontonTiger]

the demands are outrageous, considering when they are sick I bet they just use a vacation day to avoid using sick days. That way they bank them.... 25 sick days times their daily salary ? thats a lot of money........... 5 days is normal for mos of us slaves, I guess I'd give em 10 days since theyre working for the city.

Regarding the job / Garbage collection, filthy job... wuldnt do it not even for 75K... those morons dont even wear masks, I would wear a damn gas mask , with all these diseases, flus, viruses and such goiung around... theyre front line...

If I lived in Toronto I wouldnt give a damn, just dump the damn garbage... put the garbage in ya car when u leave for work, and when u drive by a garbage bin behind a store plaza then just dump it, throw it in a park, side of a rural road... whatever... lol I do it all the time hahaha

You're ****ed. I hope they have the police looking for people like you. Did you realize that illegal dumping can come with HUGE fines?

I applaud u:lol:

You're ****ed too. Illegal dumping isn't funny. If you want to ruin Ontario and kill off the wildlife, then keep it up.

If you happened to be in that union and a Toronto employee, would you not want to retain the benefits you received, or would you be willing to give them up for the benefit of the economy?

This shows your selfishness. Many of us HAVE ALREADY DONE THIS! What sickens us is that while we suck it up, and deal with it, they go on strike and make our already difficult situations even more difficult.

Are you that blind, or you so ignorant of the private sector that you truly didn't realize that we're in a recession. Many people have had to make tough concessions.

So you work there for 35 years, and accumulate 630 sick days if you never used any sick days during that full period of employment.

It has been stated elsewhere in this thread that a maximum of 120 days (6 months work time) could be accumulated as sick time. not all of the 630 days. The balance would be lost.

Given that very few people stay with one employer that long any more, this accumulation does not happen with the frequency that is implied here.

If the union can take advantage of it, they will. How can union members respect their leadership? Those people are scum. They bully and intimidate, and lack the ability to argue intelligently.

It's Ontario in general that's going down the tube. Since when did "Liberal" become NDP? We're so socialist, I'm eventually going to give up and move, or join the increasing ranks of non-innovators who could care less about progress, and would rather drive us towards extinction. Who creates our technology? Who develops new products? It sure as hell isn't these simple minded union labourers. I don't begrudge someone working union jobs if they aren't capable of doing jobs that can further the progress of society, however I do fault them for thinking they deserve as much (if not more) than innovators receive. People have totally lost sight of what capitalism has truly done for human society. Capitalism turned into socialist consumerism.

[kiasu]

You're ****ed. I hope they have the police looking for people like you. Did you realize that illegal dumping can come with HUGE fines?



You're ****ed too. Illegal dumping isn't funny. If you want to ruin Ontario and kill off the wildlife, then keep it up.



This shows your selfishness. Many of us HAVE ALREADY DONE THIS! What sickens us is that while we suck it up, and deal with it, they go on strike and make our already difficult situations even more difficult.

Are you that blind, or you so ignorant of the private sector that you truly didn't realize that we're in a recession. Many people have had to make tough concessions.

I'm not with you...of course we all know it's illegal to dump and it aint funny.. so what? The UNION or D.M knows strike isnt fun and not good to city, but they still do it...so? Ruin Ontario or Toronto? They are ruining the city already or now..so? Yes, you may think I'm selfish or ignorant, what about those UNION? Arent they? We are just doing what they are doing. If they dont care, why would we care? Go there and ask them 'Please dont strike..please...I bet you..' and you think they will give a fcuk???

Come on..I am working in a private sec and my I dont get the best salary but it's good enough compare to a lot of ppl, it's not something I cant survive with the money. Of course if the co cant offer more, that's ok orelse I wont go beg them for more or on strike? If you are not happy with the pay, then quit and leave the co.

The situation now is like I am getting $60K working as a clerk, then I think is not enough..I should get $100K..or whatever shxt I want...just get more...what a greedy a55hole. It's not like I am working as clerk in some kind of garbage room with no a/c ...etc..

[MrDisco]

are you a union shill?

Naturally any one who dares to stand up to anti-union rhetoric must clearly be a shill.

[CSK'sMom]

Just remember, the only reason the last strike was cut short was because of World Youth Day. Dalton has let Windsor's garbage strike go on for 10 weeks now with detriment to their already devastated economy.

Oh, and you may not be even to down a drink to deal with it. LCBO is set to strike at midnight and it looks like it may happen.

[VIKKO]

LCBO? TONIGHT?
what about the beer store?

oh dear

[CSK'sMom]

Beer stores will be open as will stores like the Wine Rack (in grocery stores) and wine stores in wineries. You'll pretty much be out of luck for the hard stuff though...

[WontonTiger]

I'm not with you...of course we all know it's illegal to dump and it aint funny.. so what? The UNION or D.M knows strike isnt fun and not good to city, but they still do it...so? Ruin Ontario or Toronto? They are ruining the city already or now..so? Yes, you may think I'm selfish or ignorant, what about those UNION? Arent they? We are just doing what they are doing. If they dont care, why would we care? Go there and ask them 'Please dont strike..please...I bet you..' and you think they will give a fcuk???

Come on..I am working in a private sec and my I dont get the best salary but it's good enough compare to a lot of ppl, it's not something I cant survive with the money. Of course if the co cant offer more, that's ok orelse I wont go beg them for more or on strike? If you are not happy with the pay, then quit and leave the co.

The situation now is like I am getting $60K working as a clerk, then I think is not enough..I should get $100K..or whatever shxt I want...just get more...what a greedy a55hole. It's not like I am working as clerk in some kind of garbage room with no a/c ...etc..

I'm not siding with the union. Two wrongs don't make a right, especially when it involves ruining the environment.

[TCWeasel]

Impressive. Over here we've got people suggesting that city employees should take a financial hit for the sake of the economy and over there we've people complaining about paying 5 cents for plastic shopping bags.

I guess it's all fine and good so long as it doesn't effect you personally.

Who here is up to sending the city government $10 a week to help with things in these poor economic times. Anyone? Didn't think so. But doesn't that equate to asking them to take a pay cut or similar?

You may now point out where I am completely wrong about it all and other names so chosen.

[kkvvpp]

Impressive. Over here we've got people suggesting that city employees should take a financial hit for the sake of the economy and over there we've people complaining about paying 5 cents for plastic shopping bags.

I guess it's all fine and good so long as it doesn't effect you personally.

Who here is up to sending the city government $10 a week to help with things in these poor economic times. Anyone? Didn't think so. But doesn't that equate to asking them to take a pay cut or similar?

You may now point out where I am completely wrong about it all and other names so chosen.

What you're alluding too is a system already in place, it's called taxes. We may not immedietely be paying $10 more per week now, but we will pay more in the future some way.

We all pay it, we pay for other stuff like parking now too at TTC stations. Allowing any worker to keep indefinite banked sick days which everyone agrees is a dumb system only adds to the burden.

[kkvvpp]

I'm given 10 sick days a year. Also 10 personal days. I think I should be able to bank those also. So after 5 years assuming I haven't used any I would have 50 sick days, 50 personal days. On top of that I would still have my 3 weeks vacation. This makes total sense. I want to start my own union and strike.

Wow, that's pretty generous. Where do you work if you don't mind me asking?

Ontario Public Service employees get something like 6 sick days, 6 personal and 15 vacation days.

[TCWeasel]

What you're alluding too is a system already in place, it's called taxes. We may not immedietely be paying $10 more per week now, but we will pay more in the future some way.

We all pay it, we pay for other stuff like parking now too at TTC stations. Allowing any worker to keep indefinite banked sick days which everyone agrees is a dumb system only adds to the burden.

I'm not sure if you're aware, but the city employees pay taxes too. But there seem to be some here asking them to give up money. I merely asked those same people if they'd be willing to send money in, since the concern is about the city government is within the economy. Indefinite banked sick days really isn't much of an issue if those hours remain banked. It doesn't cost anyone anything for them to have sick hours in a time bank. Accumulating sick days does not impact the economy. Most don't abuse the system, but yes there are some who do.

[MasterXan]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but the city employees pay taxes too. But there seem to be some here asking them to give up money. I merely asked those same people if they'd be willing to send money in, since the concern is about the city government is within the economy. Indefinite banked sick days really isn't much of an issue if those hours remain banked. It doesn't cost anyone anything for them to have sick hours in a time bank. Accumulating sick days does not impact the economy. Most don't abuse the system, but yes there are some who do.

so you're asking us to act like California? their people send a lot of money to their government, how are the doing now?

how about just cutting the pork (ie. government run sanitation service) ?

[TCWeasel]

so you're asking us to act like California? their people send a lot of money to their government, how are the doing now?

how about just cutting the pork (ie. government run sanitation service) ?

So your answer is no?


California's problems run far deeper then could make for apt comparison to Toronto's.

The government has made abysmal decisions regarding the garbage of Toronto. Shipping it to Michigan. That merely put off the large costs instead of dealing with them then. Governments love backloading costs. That isn't the doing of the union. Though there is no doubt that unions in Toronto have far more power than necessary (TTC is absurd). Do unions present a problem in the financial woes of the city? Sure. But they are far from the only culprits.

If this were an election year you'd see a much greater amount of urgency in fixing some of the issues.

[thomsonst780]

So your answer is no?


California's problems run far deeper then could make for apt comparison to Toronto's.

The government has made abysmal decisions regarding the garbage of Toronto. Shipping it to Michigan. That merely put off the large costs instead of dealing with them then. Governments love backloading costs. That isn't the doing of the union. Though there is no doubt that unions in Toronto have far more power than necessary (TTC is absurd). Do unions present a problem in the financial woes of the city? Sure. But they are far from the only culprits.

If this were an election year you'd see a much greater amount of urgency in fixing some of the issues.

You expect to win over this rfd anti-union mob with logic? reason? fairness? historical fact? LOL...

It'd be easier to persuade the fine folks of Salem in 1692 to not burn the witches. Save your breath weasel, the acolytes can't hear or see...

http://library.thinkquest.org/J002399/salemwitch/Image2.jpg

[Sepiraph]

They need someone like Mike Harris to run this city to cut off all these excess waste.

[KorruptioN]

They need someone like Mike Harris to run this city to cut off all these excess waste.

I chuckled.

[Firebot]

I'm so glad to be away from that socialist hellhole. It's Miller time:D!

[MasterXan]

I chuckled.

i dunno why you act that way cause he cut a lot of the pork.

[ephemera]

They need someone like Mike Harris to run this city to cut off all these excess waste.

+1!!!

Time to clean up City Hall and get some new people with new ideas in there.

[jedijome]

mike harris caused this problem.
if he hadn't downloaded all number of random costs onto the city we wouldn't be in such a huge crunch.

then again if the city concillors hadn't been so greedy and given themselves a 3% raise they would have had a leg to stand on when asking unions and other city employees to take a small pay cut during a major recession. jack asses.

sigh there's enough blame to go around for everyone. maybe toronto should just declare bankruptcy and just renegeotiate all contracts.

[pintobean]

...Who here is up to sending the city government $10 a week to help with things in these poor economic times. Anyone? Didn't think so. But doesn't that equate to asking them to take a pay cut or similar?...
This is yet another example of union sympathizers fudging the issue and trying to distract people from the real problem.

We are not demanding that the CUPE members take a pay-cut to help improve Toronto's economy or budget...we're asking them to take a pay-cut because their current wages and benefits are too high for the job they do and the City can no longer afford to pay them.

I am not going to send your employer $10 every week, just like you're not going to send my employer $10 every week.

The key to my above statement is that you need to stop looking at the City of Toronto as a bottomless pit of money and instead realize that it is your employer. If you did this, it might become a little easier for you to understand their position.

Here's where I stand... I am employed by a private company and we are really feeling the brunt of this recession because we are in the real estate field. My company instituted a company-wide salary freeze in January, which was basically a pay-cut for me because I was due for a raise in February. In addition to this, my employer laid off 25% of the Canadian workforce which basically means that the remaining 75% (of which I am part) are now handling 100% of the work with no extra pay or benefits. They also eliminated the employee RRSP contribution matching program and any extraneous perks we used to have like our Christmas party, Summer Family Fun Day, birthday cakes, etc... As if all that wasn't enough, we have recently heard that the company is now contemplating the elimination of our group health care plan (or they may just stop paying the premium for us and instead leave us to pay it ourselves out of our own pockets or opt out).

It is obvious that nobody likes these cuts and lay offs, but we all know that they're necessary in order for our company to remain viable, and so we suck it up and continue to do our jobs.

Now I'm assuming that you are a CUPE union member, so please tell me what sort of concessions you have made to your employer (the City of Toronto) since January.

...Indefinite banked sick days really isn't much of an issue if those hours remain banked. It doesn't cost anyone anything for them to have sick hours in a time bank. Accumulating sick days does not impact the economy...
What are you smoking?
Do you really believe that banked sick days don't cost anyone anything?

What happens when an employee decides to use 30 of his banked sick days? Does his job stop being done, or do the rest of the workers have to fill in by doing overtime? Now who pays for that overtime and where does that extra money come from?

What happens when someone retires with 120 banked sick days and decides to cash them out? Doesn't he get paid a lump sum of money? Where does that money come from?

Please enlighten us how banked sick days don't cost anything.

.

[help_questions]

mike harris caused this problem.
if he hadn't downloaded all number of random costs onto the city we wouldn't be in such a huge crunch.

then again if the city concillors hadn't been so greedy and given themselves a 3% raise they would have had a leg to stand on when asking unions and other city employees to take a small pay cut during a major recession. jack asses.

sigh there's enough blame to go around for everyone. maybe toronto should just declare bankruptcy and just renegeotiate all contracts.

let be clear about something.

the city councilors are worthy or a raise
the garbage men are not
period.

not only should city employees all take a cut during the recession, but the paramedics should take a smaller cut than the garbage men, because the garbage men are worth less than the paramedics are.

[gr8dlr]

Here's what we should do....go to HomeDepot and buy one of those Rhinobags (3 ft x 3 ft x 3ft). Split the $40 among 10 neighbours ($4 each or less if you have more neighbours and room in the bag). Dump you garbage in there and call the company to pick it up.

http://www.useitlikeabin.com/main.html

[jedijome]

this thread has just reminded me how frustrated i am with everything.
i'm in half a mind to go down to nathan phillips and picket the picketers. lets see how they feel when we stop them from going to the washroom or getting somethign to eat.

i'm getting tired of being nickeled and dimed to death.
5cents on a bag, hst, yearly increases in property taxes, increase in hydro rates. when the eff will it stop.

then on top of that we seem to have some random bloody union striking every few months and making off with 3-4% raises every few months.

the city councillors are useless and bow down to random interest groups, and pass laws that don't really do anything. the latest examples would be the 5c fee on plastic bagsand the jarvis bike lanes...i still don't understand why they couldn't put bike lanes on serbourne and parliment and call it a day.

no but in all seriousness citizens and businesses of toronto need to get their **** together and do what the sri lankans and iranian's did. we need to protest, stand up for ourselves and stop with all the bs. if there was a big rally or a protest against the unions and city hall i'd be there. i'm tired of these self interested groups duking it out all the time, while i'm held hostage and in the end forced to pay out even more. let's have a ride/run/walk for the citizens of toronto, anything, i just want an outlet to show how frustrated i am.

i thought about moving away to a smaller city but then i realized, why the hell should i be forced to adjust so that some selfish *******s can have their way.

sigh end rant.

[KorruptioN]

let be clear about something.

the city councilors are worthy or a raise
the garbage men are not
period.

not only should city employees all take a cut during the recession, but the paramedics should take a smaller cut than the garbage men, because the garbage men are worth less than the paramedics are.

It's interesting how you're so clear cut, with authority (from where?), about how much these careers should be worth.

[kiasu]

This is yet another example of union sympathizers fudging the issue and trying to distract people from the real problem.

We are not demanding that the CUPE members take a pay-cut to help improve Toronto's economy or budget...we're asking them to take a pay-cut because their current wages and benefits are too high for the job they do and the City can no longer afford to pay them.

I am not going to send your employer $10 every week, just like you're not going to send my employer $10 every week.

The key to my above statement is that you need to stop looking at the City of Toronto as a bottomless pit of money and instead realize that it is your employer. If you did this, it might become a little easier for you to understand their position.

Here's where I stand... I am employed by a private company and we are really feeling the brunt of this recession because we are in the real estate field. My company instituted a company-wide salary freeze in January, which was basically a pay-cut for me because I was due for a raise in February. In addition to this, my employer laid off 25% of the Canadian workforce which basically means that the remaining 75% (of which I am part) are now handling 100% of the work with no extra pay or benefits. They also eliminated the employee RRSP contribution matching program and any extraneous perks we used to have like our Christmas party, Summer Family Fun Day, birthday cakes, etc... As if all that wasn't enough, we have recently heard that the company is now contemplating the elimination of our group health care plan (or they may just stop paying the premium for us and instead leave us to pay it ourselves out of our own pockets or opt out).

It is obvious that nobody likes these cuts and lay offs, but we all know that they're necessary in order for our company to remain viable, and so we suck it up and continue to do our jobs.

Now I'm assuming that you are a CUPE union member, so please tell me what sort of concessions you have made to your employer (the City of Toronto) since January.


What are you smoking?
Do you really believe that banked sick days don't cost anyone anything?

What happens when an employee decides to use 30 of his banked sick days? Does his job stop being done, or do the rest of the workers have to fill in by doing overtime? Now who pays for that overtime and where does that extra money come from?

What happens when someone retires with 120 banked sick days and decides to cash them out? Doesn't he get paid a lump sum of money? Where does that money come from?

Please enlighten us how banked sick days don't cost anything.

.


+1

TCWeasel, let me ask you a question: How about no paid for your sick day? I bet with you 101% you gonna still stick your a55 at your job even if you are sick (Unless you cant move which is totally diff story). What a selfish person you are...99% of the ppl in UNION are like that..yes I mean 99%. I would love to see one day everything change and you ppl from UNION lost all job and begging other co to give you job. Dont laugh..look at GM or Crystal...they probably never think of one day their co will go bankrupt. Yes..I'm evil :twisted: I wont give a damn respect for those ppl from UNION..:twisted:

[slowtyper]

let be clear about something.

the city councilors are worthy or a raise
the garbage men are not
period.

not only should city employees all take a cut during the recession, but the paramedics should take a smaller cut than the garbage men, because the garbage men are worth less than the paramedics are.

I know you're still riding your newly found cause to get all high and mighty but seriously...who made you the authority of who is worth what in our society?

And how do you figure the city counsellors are worthy of their raise? Are you basing this on performance or what?

[jstaneon]

mike harris caused this problem.
if he hadn't downloaded all number of random costs onto the city we wouldn't be in such a huge crunch.

then again if the city concillors hadn't been so greedy and given themselves a 3% raise they would have had a leg to stand on when asking unions and other city employees to take a small pay cut during a major recession. jack asses.

sigh there's enough blame to go around for everyone. maybe toronto should just declare bankruptcy and just renegeotiate all contracts.

I disagree about the mike harris comment. He forced the cities to be more financially responsible for costs that they are able to control. The province wasnt able to oversee detailed ops of toronto, so why should they be responsible for controlling the costs?

Bring back Mike Harris.

[deuce]

I know you're still riding your newly found cause to get all high and mighty but seriously...who made you the authority of who is worth what in our society?

And how do you figure the city counsellors are worthy of their raise? Are you basing this on performance or what?

the more posts of his i read the more im starting to think its a jealousy issue.
he went to york, hopefully graduated, cant find a job and is volunteering like a sucker.

i have friends on city contract who also go to york. cupe screwed them double this year, and you dont hear them spewing the kind of crap that this kid does.
lots of people got screwed by the york strike.. **** happens to everyone, you take it in stride and move on.

edit: i cant spell volunteering

[MrDisco]

let be clear about something.

Revise your typos and you will achieve the clarity you seek.


the city councilors are worthy or a raise


By what standard?

not only should city employees all take a cut during the recession

Ridiculous. Why doesn't the Mayor set the lead and roll back his wage?

but the paramedics should take a smaller cut than the garbage men, because the garbage men are worth less than the paramedics are.

And should paramedics take a larger cut than firefighters because fire fighters are 'worth more'. What about day care? Is that worth more or less than community centers? Swimming pools vs the Island ferries?

Now let's truly be clear: changes have to be made to the contracts given to public workers, however a race to the bottom is not what we should be striving for.

[YLSF]

Interesting idea but I think your math is off. I am pretty sure you need to pay a pickup fee on top of the $40 (from a quick glance at the website looks like over $100)

Here's what we should do....go to HomeDepot and buy one of those Rhinobags (3 ft x 3 ft x 3ft). Split the $40 among 10 neighbours ($4 each or less if you have more neighbours and room in the bag). Dump you garbage in there and call the company to pick it up.

http://www.useitlikeabin.com/main.html

What about people taking their garbage to a dump in halton or elsewhere? Even if you have to pay $5 or whatever the minimum charge is it sure beats waiting in line for 4 hrs!

[MasterXan]

the more posts of his i read the more im starting to think its a jealousy issue.
he went to york, hopefully graduated, cant find a job and is voulenteering like a sucker.

i have friends on city contract who also go to york. cupe screwed them double this year, and you dont hear them spewing the kind of crap that this kid does.
lots of people got screwed by the york strike.. **** happens to everyone, you take it in stride and move on.

lol you think people at york actually think that way?

although York is a haven for left wing loons, i'm sure a lot of the students saw through CUPE and really resent for what they did.

it's like the high school strikes back in the late 90's when Harris was premier. the teachers gave the students the koolaid and many students thought Harris was out to kill education but all he was against were whiny and lazy teachers. however, i was smart enough not to drink the koolaid because more money to the unions wouldn't have solved the education issues. There was one time in OAC English when I was chatting with another student about politics and the other student said that Harris is actually pretty decent cause he cut the pork and created a surplus. the teacher overheard him and pretty much verbally kicked his ass. lol i don't think anyone who was a high school student and supported the teachers back then could still defend the teachers right now.

the kids at York who still support CUPE are making the same mistakes as the students who supported the high school teachers. when they get into the real world and work in the private sector, they'll know the people they supported weren't so great. another thing, I am embarrassed to know that some of the TAs who work at York were my peers during my undergrad years. some of the things they demanded during the strike just blows my mind. (ie. more pay and "better job security" during these economic times) obviously these idiots never worked in the private sector and probably never worked after undergrad and went straight to post-grad studies. everyone knows it's the private sector that carries the water while the public sector drinks the water.

[Whitedart]

It's interesting how you're so clear cut, with authority (from where?), about how much these careers should be worth.

He just finished his York program. But something tells me he did not major in either HR management or public administration.

[help_questions]

I know you're still riding your newly found cause to get all high and mighty but seriously...who made you the authority of who is worth what in our society?

And how do you figure the city counsellors are worthy of their raise? Are you basing this on performance or what?

I base this on job function and the ability to replace the person doing the job

ANYONE is capable of collecting the garbage

the more posts of his i read the more im starting to think its a jealousy issue.
he went to york, hopefully graduated, cant find a job and is volunteering like a sucker.

i have friends on city contract who also go to york. cupe screwed them double this year, and you dont hear them spewing the kind of crap that this kid does.
lots of people got screwed by the york strike.. **** happens to everyone, you take it in stride and move on.

edit: i cant spell volunteering

I just finished my third year, and have one more year to go
I don't care about how other people feel about the York strike....I resent those who went on strike and will show as I see fit.
I enjoy knowing that some of them will not have a job in September, and will likely miss bill payments and face significant debts.
And why should I just take it in stride and move on? Why is trying to get them back wrong? If my posts deter students from going to YorkU, then my posts hurt the CUPE3903 members who need students to teach....and if my posts therefore hurt CUPE3903 members, then mission accomplished. Sure, I could just take it in stride and move on, or I could try to make the situation worse for those who caused me inconvenience. At the end of the day, I am an adult and will do what I want. I have no mercy for those who did not have mercy for me.

and why does volunteering make me a sucker?

Revise your typos and you will achieve the clarity you seek.

My typos are ridiculous. I've gone back and read some of my posts and see that I make tons of typos.


Ridiculous. Why doesn't the Mayor set the lead and roll back his wage?


Because the mayor is more important and the leader of the city.
the garbage man is just another garbage man.
And if the mayor were to roll back his wage by 5%, then the garbage men's wages should be rolled back more than 5%.
At the end of the day, the mayor is important, and their respective wages and concessions should reflect that.
Please don't tell me that the you think the garbage man is more important than the mayor.......


And should paramedics take a larger cut than firefighters because fire fighters are 'worth more'. What about day care? Is that worth more or less than community centers? Swimming pools vs the Island ferries?

I am not sure if paramedics are worth more than firemen....I haven't thought that far. what I do know is that all the workers you note, the paramedics, firemen, day care workers, pool workers and ferry workers, all of them are worth more than the garbage men. They all should be paid more and have better benefits. There has to be a heirarchy based on job function and importance. Everyone getting the same benefits is wasteful and inefficient.



Now let's truly be clear: changes have to be made to the contracts given to public workers, however a race to the bottom is not what we should be striving for.

I've never once said it should be a race to the bottom. I understand minimum wage will not work with garbage collection. That said, I definitely feel that costs can be cut, and this recession is not the time for raises, or the maintaining of the sick day bank.

[WontonTiger]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but the city employees pay taxes too. But there seem to be some here asking them to give up money. I merely asked those same people if they'd be willing to send money in, since the concern is about the city government is within the economy. Indefinite banked sick days really isn't much of an issue if those hours remain banked. It doesn't cost anyone anything for them to have sick hours in a time bank. Accumulating sick days does not impact the economy. Most don't abuse the system, but yes there are some who do.

After this is all said and done, it will be two years since I received a raise. Due to cuts at my company, my workload has all but doubled. I now have to do the job of someone who was let go.

I can't take a sick day because I would be so far behind that I'd be in trouble. I'm not entirely happy with my job right now, however I want to give you a picture of the sacrifice that SOME have to make. I'm a lucky one, as I'm still employed.

You really have to think about what you're saying. Where does the money come from? Public workers probably pay like 1% of their own salaries in taxes. The large majority comes from me (the private worker), and our companies (private companies). What will happen when the companies are tired of paying more than they should? When they realize they can be more competitive in Calgary, or Regina? You can't take forever, eventually there will be consequences.

Public unions are so short-sighted. They think that Toronto has a money garden with Maple Money Trees in the foyer. It sits next to the fountain that sprays liquid gold. You should see it, it's quite a beauty.

So your answer is no?


California's problems run far deeper then could make for apt comparison to Toronto's.

The government has made abysmal decisions regarding the garbage of Toronto. Shipping it to Michigan. That merely put off the large costs instead of dealing with them then. Governments love backloading costs. That isn't the doing of the union. Though there is no doubt that unions in Toronto have far more power than necessary (TTC is absurd). Do unions present a problem in the financial woes of the city? Sure. But they are far from the only culprits.

If this were an election year you'd see a much greater amount of urgency in fixing some of the issues.

Since you're apparently the messiah, why not share these costs with us. If you have some knowledge of these "large costs" why not share them? I understand the point you're trying to make, but it's an issue that can be dealt with at another time. Why try to sidestep the issue by complicating the situation? Rather than deal with the issue at hand, the union would rather allude to other issues to make their waste seem "acceptable."

You expect to win over this rfd anti-union mob with logic? reason? fairness? historical fact? LOL...

It'd be easier to persuade the fine folks of Salem in 1692 to not burn the witches. Save your breath weasel, the acolytes can't hear or see...

http://library.thinkquest.org/J002399/salemwitch/Image2.jpg

Please do tell me the "logic" that he used. How about the "reason" in his argument? I don't even want to ask about "historical fact" (none was used, only conjecture).

Somebody throw me the Picard facepalm.

[kkvvpp]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but the city employees pay taxes too. But there seem to be some here asking them to give up money. I merely asked those same people if they'd be willing to send money in, since the concern is about the city government is within the economy. Indefinite banked sick days really isn't much of an issue if those hours remain banked. It doesn't cost anyone anything for them to have sick hours in a time bank. Accumulating sick days does not impact the economy. Most don't abuse the system, but yes there are some who do.

I'm well aware public servants pay taxes. You asked a question where the most real life applicable answer is taxes. By giving in to these demands we're likely going to see either higher taxes or service decreases in some form to pay for it. This applies to CUPE and everyone else in ONTARIO. Toronto gets HUGE funding from provincial funds.

Indefinite banked days in a time bank is a LIABILITY. It's an underfunded obligation to the tune of $249 million according to paper reports if all workers cash in.

To say it doesn't cost anyone anything is absolutely ridiculous. It's like going to Futureshop and spending $7,000 on a home theater system under their "do not pay for 90 days" policy and considering that free.

[WontonTiger]

let be clear about something.

the city councilors are worthy or a raise
the garbage men are not
period.

not only should city employees all take a cut during the recession, but the paramedics should take a smaller cut than the garbage men, because the garbage men are worth less than the paramedics are.

I agree with you most of the time, however you really have it in for sanitation workers. This isn't about the job for me, as much as it's about market value. Sanitation workers deserve decent wages, just not these pumped up wages they receive now.

The councilors did not deserve a raise when they put it forward. They don't deserve one because their work is crap, and they are a bunch of fools. Councilors in general deserve more, as it should attract better qualified people. We obviously don't pay them enough overall, as they have too many fools in that place.

The current councilors deserve a pay cut, future councilors deserve to make $200,000 a year. How do we expect to get leadership if we don't pay for it.

[MaximDude]

I was just watching CityTV news and they said that Etobicoke garbage collectors who work for a private contractor and are still picking up trash now are paid $18/hour compared to Toronto collectors who get $25/hour including better benefits and they're still striking??? WTF?!!?!!!?!!! :evil:

[WontonTiger]

lol you think people at york actually think that way?

although York is a haven for left wing loons, i'm sure a lot of the students saw through CUPE and really resent for what they did.

it's like the high school strikes back in the late 90's when Harris was premier. the teachers gave the students the koolaid and many students thought Harris was out to kill education but all he was against were whiny and lazy teachers. however, i was smart enough not to drink the koolaid because more money to the unions wouldn't have solved the education issues. There was one time in OAC English when I was chatting with another student about politics and the other student said that Harris is actually pretty decent cause he cut the pork and created a surplus. the teacher overheard him and pretty much verbally kicked his ass. lol i don't think anyone who was a high school student and supported the teachers back then could still defend the teachers right now.

the kids at York who still support CUPE are making the same mistakes as the students who supported the high school teachers. when they get into the real world and work in the private sector, they'll know the people they supported weren't so great. another thing, I am embarrassed to know that some of the TAs who work at York were my peers during my undergrad years. some of the things they demanded during the strike just blows my mind. (ie. more pay and "better job security" during these economic times) obviously these idiots never worked in the private sector and probably never worked after undergrad and went straight to post-grad studies. everyone knows it's the private sector that carries the water while the public sector drinks the water.

I love you man!

I was finishing up with Harris as well. My district lost the 2nd most time in Ontario. I had to work my ass off to catch up. The only teacher whom I still speak with was the one teacher who understood, and tried to help us (even at his peers criticism). That was a time when the true teachers separated themselves. So many teachers didn't want to strike, that the union had to impose the "no afterschool help" script they setup.

No one I knew supported them. It was the first time that I felt that things were changing for the better.

[kkvvpp]

I was just watching CityTV news and they said that Etobicoke garbage collectors who work for a private contractor and are still picking up trash now are paid $18/hour compared to Toronto collectors who get $25/hour including better benefits and they're still striking??? WTF?!!?!!!?!!! :evil:

Exactly.

Putting a job posting out there and offering a garbage man $25 as oppose to $18 isn't going to get you a garbage man who is so good he deserves just under 40% more in wages and then benefits. The difference between garbage man A and B in the work they do isn't noticeable in that wage difference.

Offering city councilors 40% less though might hire you a bunch of people who might leave this city in a bigger mess.

[WontonTiger]

Exactly.

Putting a job posting out there and offering a garbage man $25 as oppose to $18 isn't going to get you a garbage man who is so good he deserves just under 40% more in wages and then benefits. The difference between garbage man A and B in the work they do isn't noticeable in that wage difference.

Offering city councilors 40% less though might hire you a bunch of people who might leave this city in a bigger mess.

What's the point though? These union supporters don't seem to understand hard, cold, rational, logical thought. They think everyone should support them, regardless of everyone else's situation. They feel they are better than the general public, as while we're taking cuts, they're asking for more. They don't realize that they are a cog in a giant machine, they'd rather believe they are all conductors, and really matter in the grand scheme of things. They're such sociopaths that they've deluded themselves into believing all of the crap that comes out of the unions.

You pay more for positions of specialty.

TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE

That is their motto. No rationale, no understanding, only what is mine.

[custy]

I loaded up my car with garbage ready to dump @ the waste transfers station. When I got there, I forgot that they were striking... FML.

People had to be escorted off the premises by Police... alot of angry citizens demanding the workers to get back to work.

[MrDisco]

Because the mayor is more important and the leader of the city.


So lead by example. He should cut his wage in "these tough times" and set the standard for everyone.


And if the mayor were to roll back his wage by 5%, then the garbage men's wages should be rolled back more than 5%.

Ridiculous. A 5% cut for the mayor would mean far less than a 5% cut for bottom earning city workers. $166,985.00 vs $158,635.75 is not exactly a big hardship.


Please don't tell me that the you think the garbage man is more important than the mayor.......


I'm still trying to figure out why you're so fixated on just garbage men (and now the mayor). This is a larger issue affecting many different city workers. Widen your scope please.


I haven't thought that far

That's pretty obvious.


what I do know is that all the workers you note, the paramedics, firemen, day care workers, pool workers and ferry workers, all of them are worth more than the garbage men.

Wait. Someone working at the docks is worth more than the guy breaking his back during the height of summer? Where the shut down of the ferries is an inconvenience at best, the lack of garbage collection directly impacts our sanitation, health, and tourism. How you can equate that job is worth less than the other astounds me.


I've never once said it should be a race to the bottom.

It is the whole raison d'être for anti-union rhetoric. The rallying cry is 'the private sector can do it cheaper' (Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger...). How they achieve these miraculous savings is in no small part due to wage reductions, lay offs, increased part time vs full time work, etc - in short a race to the bottom.

and this recession is not the time for raises, or the maintaining of the sick day bank.

And yet it was time to give councilors raises and to provide for a renovation budget.
The recession is convenient crutch, but it is only a temporary inflection in the business cycle. While some benefits need to be examined, the knee-jerk reaction of 'fire them all' is hardly the way to go.

[DuDe1411]

make you wonder what good unions are for other ppl

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090622/ap_on_re_us/us_rubber_rooms

[st7860]

make you wonder what good unions are for other ppl

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090622/ap_on_re_us/us_rubber_rooms

" Hundreds of New York City public school teachers accused of offenses ranging from insubordination to sexual misconduct are being paid their full salaries to sit around all day playing Scrabble, surfing the Internet or just staring at the wall, if that's what they want to do.

Because their union contract makes it extremely difficult to fire them, the teachers have been banished by the school system to its "rubber rooms" — off-campus office space where they wait months, even years, for their disciplinary hearings.
"

[help_questions]

TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, TAKE,

That is their motto. No rationale, no understanding, only what is mine.

Yes, and they are taking from us. If we don't stand up to this non-sense, they will take until nothing us left


I'm still trying to figure out why you're so fixated on just garbage men (and now the mayor). This is a larger issue affecting many different city workers. Widen your scope please.


Honestly, I am fixated on the logic of giving unskilled workers raises when there are thousands of unskilled workers looking for work. It just doesn't make sense to me.

My fixation and anti-union beliefs involve the auto workers, the garbage men; I pretty much disagree with giving unskilled workers raises when there are thousands of unskilled people who would do the job for less.

It is the whole raison d'être for anti-union rhetoric. The rallying cry is 'the private sector can do it cheaper' (Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger...). How they achieve these miraculous savings is in no small part due to wage reductions, lay offs, increased part time vs full time work, etc - in short a race to the bottom.

Well, since a race to the bottom doesn't necessarily mean minimum wage, I'll add that it may not be a bad thing.

You cite wage reductions - I see nothing wrong with paying less for workers. Less for workers equates to more for citizens. Every penny saved will be spend more efficiently.

You cite layoffs - I see nothing wrong with layoffs. If the tasks can get done with less workers and therefore less wages and benefits, then let it be! It is called efficiency

You cite increased part time vs full time - That sounds cheaper to me, so let that happen to. What is wrong with part time labour? If the part-timers can get the job done, then why not? They command a cheaper wage, demand less benefits, and can produce the same quality of work. Full time jobs shouldn't be kept, especially on the taxpayers' dime, if there is a cheaper alternative.

At the end of the day, the city has a budget, and the more the unions squeeze out of the budget, the less the general public gets in terms of services. The interests of the larger general public should come before the interests of a select union membership.

[help_questions]

I agree with you most of the time, however you really have it in for sanitation workers. This isn't about the job for me, as much as it's about market value. Sanitation workers deserve decent wages, just not these pumped up wages they receive now.

The councilors did not deserve a raise when they put it forward. They don't deserve one because their work is crap, and they are a bunch of fools. Councilors in general deserve more, as it should attract better qualified people. We obviously don't pay them enough overall, as they have too many fools in that place.

The current councilors deserve a pay cut, future councilors deserve to make $200,000 a year. How do we expect to get leadership if we don't pay for it.

Well, part of it is that I am making less money because of this strike.
I outsource telemarketing calls to a friend own owns a chain of call centers, and he has shut down his TO call center because clients are coming in from out of town and he doesn't want them to see what TO looks like during the strike. It is embarrassing and unprofessional.

So because there are not running at full capacity, I am making less profit from outsourcing per hour, per day.

No mind you, I literally do nothing to make this money, as the contract and outsourcing runs itself, but I am frustrated that the garbage strike is costing me profits. Taking it one step further, the less profits I make, the less taxes I pay. So really, the union is costing CANADA money, tax revenue, during a recession. Thanks CUPE!

Then again, in all fairness, my negative posts about garbage men started before my friend made his decision to temporally shut down, but I think that I have been posting more since I found out about his plan.

I do agree that sanitation workers deserve decent wages, but if there are people who are willing to do this job for $12/hour, then I feel that the city has a duty to taxpayers to make it happen and ultimately get the trash collected at the lowest cost.

[DuDe1411]

+1 :arrowu:

[help_questions]

why are they making it hard for people to drop off their garbage?

Are they TRYING to infuriate the general public?

Wouldn't they have more public support if they made dropping off garbage easy?

morons. CUPE morons.

[DuDe1411]

why are they making it hard for people to drop off their garbage?

Are they TRYING to infuriate the general public?

Wouldn't they have more public support if they made dropping off garbage easy?

morons. CUPE morons.

well... these unions think angering the public wil pressure the gov't...

GOOD NEWS THO. this week is rather hot so i hope they melt and get sunburn!

[Firebot]

well... these unions think angering the public wil pressure the gov't...

GOOD NEWS THO. this week is rather hot so i hope they melt and get sunburn!

I think the smell of week old garbage in the sun will trump a little sunburn.

[Emancipated]

I loaded up my car with garbage ready to dump @ the waste transfers station. When I got there, I forgot that they were striking... FML.

People had to be escorted off the premises by Police... alot of angry citizens demanding the workers to get back to work.

You should unload it right on their front gate.

Those stupid bastards are pissing me off big time.

Is it illegal to put my trash on the curb like business as usual? I rather stink up my front lawn than my back yard.

[Dina_E]

thank god i live at a condo
private garbage pickup ftw

[Emancipated]

thank god i live at a condo
private garbage pickup ftw

I hope the spaghetti monster comes and devours you tonight while you sleep.

me > you. :evil:;)

[st7860]

thank god i live at a condo
private garbage pickup ftw

what is an ftw pickup?

[DuDe1411]

if you call the plow king. he kill make way



... :(
that's the best i can do....couldnt find a clip
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_vwt55TQq-3k/SHmXPJffRBI/AAAAAAAABvk/lM3nRdavl0c/s320/plow+protesters.jpg

[Sepiraph]

what is an ftw pickup?

ftw = for the win

[_Allan_]

probably shouldn't be posting from a CoT computer, but, from what I've been told, the strike will be about as long as - probably longer then - the 2002 strike.

[I am XeNo]

There are wayy too many illinformed people in this thread. First of all, the city workers are not striking for a raise (even though the city councillors and other city workers recieved one). They are striking to fight some of the 110 pages worth of concessions demanded by the city. Second, your employer pays for your short-term disability insurance (which the union members do not have, instead they have banked sick days for the same money). Third, union members can bank an inifite number of sick days, however they can only cash out 6 months worth of them when they retire. Fourth, when the heck did everyone stop taking the evening news with a grain of salt. You all should know better by now.

[Bskll]

There are wayy too many illinformed people in this thread. First of all, the city workers are not striking for a raise (even though the city councillors and other city workers recieved one). They are striking to fight some of the 110 pages worth of concessions demanded by the city. Second, your employer pays for your short-term disability insurance (which the union members do not have, instead they have banked sick days for the same money). Third, union members can bank an inifite number of sick days, however they can only cash out 6 months worth of them when they retire. Fourth, when the heck did everyone stop taking the evening news with a grain of salt. You all should know better by now.

none of this excuses them from not picking up garbage and stopping residents from dropping off their own garbage.

[TCWeasel]

This is yet another example of union sympathizers fudging the issue and trying to distract people from the real problem.

We are not demanding that the CUPE members take a pay-cut to help improve Toronto's economy or budget...we're asking them to take a pay-cut because their current wages and benefits are too high for the job they do and the City can no longer afford to pay them.


Please enlighten us how banked sick days don't cost anything.

.

Sick days, in a bank, don't cost anything. When they're used, yes, but when they're in the actual bank...no. I didn't think it was that difficult a comprehension issue.

You are asking them to take a wage cut. Plain and simple. Maybe I think you make too much. Will you take a pay cut? Maybe they do make too much. Yet, they are making what they are making now. How many people will volunteer to give up money because someone else believes they are paid too much?


I am not a union sympathizer, just someone who practices common sense. I know that it can be difficult to recognize with it being in such short supply these days.

[TCWeasel]

+1

TCWeasel, let me ask you a question: How about no paid for your sick day? I bet with you 101% you gonna still stick your a55 at your job even if you are sick (Unless you cant move which is totally diff story). What a selfish person you are...99% of the ppl in UNION are like that..yes I mean 99%. I would love to see one day everything change and you ppl from UNION lost all job and begging other co to give you job. Dont laugh..look at GM or Crystal...they probably never think of one day their co will go bankrupt. Yes..I'm evil :twisted: I wont give a damn respect for those ppl from UNION..:twisted:

I'll try and respond to that best I can, my deciphering skills aren't what they used to be. I still get paid when I'm off sick. Strangely, that also happens to non union people, you may not have been aware of that so I'll let it slide.

When I retire, I don't get paid for the sick days I didn't use. I'm fine with that. I don't support the idea that Toronto employees should be paid out for that.

You're probably right though. I am a bad person because I, through no fault of my own, am part of a union. I suppose I could quit, that would let me out of the union, but then I'm just not that stupid.

I use no more sick days than the average non-union employee.

[kkvvpp]

Sick days, in a bank, don't cost anything. When they're used, yes, but when they're in the actual bank...no. I didn't think it was that difficult a comprehension issue.

You are asking them to take a wage cut. Plain and simple. Maybe I think you make too much. Will you take a pay cut? Maybe they do make too much. Yet, they are making what they are making now. How many people will volunteer to give up money because someone else believes they are paid too much?

I am not a union sympathizer, just someone who practices common sense. I know that it can be difficult to recognize with it being in such short supply these days.

No lol, very much no.

There is a PRESENT VALUE on future cashables. Good luck in life if you don't understand budgeting for the future. You are a perfect reason why we need to pay a little more for expertise when it comes to management.

They are very obviously overpaid when you see garbage men picking up trash in that area of Etobicoke for $18 and less benefits. They are very obviously overpaid when privatizing garbage pickup is cheaper.

[TCWeasel]

No lol, very much no.

There is a PRESENT VALUE on future cashables. Good luck in life if you don't understand budgeting for the future. You are a perfect reason why we need to pay a little more for expertise when it comes to management.

They are very obviously overpaid when you see garbage men picking up trash in that area of Etobicoke for $18 and less benefits. They are very obviously overpaid when privatizing garbage pickup is cheaper.

From my perspective, in that I don't get paid for unused sick time, yes it doesn't impact much.

Toronto, apparently, is a different story. I don't support getting paid for unused sick time. That they did get paid was something I was unaware of until last evening.

[ever1221]

guys, just dump the garbage at these union workers houses...seriously

[help_questions]

guys, just dump the garbage at these union workers houses...seriously

please post the addresses to make it easy for people.

[help_questions]

From my perspective, in that I don't get paid for unused sick time, yes it doesn't impact much.

Toronto, apparently, is a different story. I don't support getting paid for unused sick time. That they did get paid was something I was unaware of until last evening.

So now that it is established you don't support the Toronto unions, why not help the city take away that benefit (the one you don't support)?

[Bskll]

Sick days, in a bank, don't cost anything. When they're used, yes, but when they're in the actual bank...no. I didn't think it was that difficult a comprehension issue.

You are asking them to take a wage cut. Plain and simple. Maybe I think you make too much. Will you take a pay cut? Maybe they do make too much. Yet, they are making what they are making now. How many people will volunteer to give up money because someone else believes they are paid too much?


I am not a union sympathizer, just someone who practices common sense. I know that it can be difficult to recognize with it being in such short supply these days.

if its being banked, then its a liability that the city has to save for. its not like the city can spend the $250 million held in reserve for the sick-day cash out. every time one of the city's employee's banks some sick days, the city has to set aside cash in a bank account to cover that. so saying that it doesn't cost the city anything is not true.

sure we are asking them to take a wage cut, only because we're paying their wages. If you somehow paid a portion of my wages, then you are fully justified in asking me to take a wage-cut.

people in Toronto have some serious logic problems.

[slowtyper]

why are they making it hard for people to drop off their garbage?

Are they TRYING to infuriate the general public?

Wouldn't they have more public support if they made dropping off garbage easy?

morons. CUPE morons.

They are obviously not trying to get public support. They are trying to make things inconvenient as possible so the city gives in. This is pretty obvious.

[TCWeasel]

So now that it is established you don't support the Toronto unions, why not help the city take away that benefit (the one you don't support)?

I can speak out against it, but apart from that there isn't much I can do. I don't have a lot of pull with the unions in Toronto. (If I did, it would be with the TTC and I'd like to smack some sense into those people). Hell, I don't have a lot of pull with my own union. I come in, work, go home when it's time to go home. I'm happy with that. I stay out of the way of union business and hope we don't strike. Besides, I couldn't get anywhere in a union. I've got too much education to actually make it anywhere within union leadership.

Unions do have a place, but should never include abusing the position. Representing workers in being treated fairly is one thing, ensuring that your transit drivers are the highest paid in the province simply to be the highest paid is far too abusive and far too much power. Many unions have too much power.

[cmge]

catapults or trebuchet anyone?... :lol:

[TCWeasel]

sure we are asking them to take a wage cut, only because we're paying their wages. If you somehow paid a portion of my wages, then you are fully justified in asking me to take a wage-cut.


You see, though, where they might balk at taking a $7 an hour pay cut. I'm not sure many here would say "You're right, I'm making too much, cut my wage by a quarter".

I don't dispute the fact that $25 seems somewhat excessive for garbage collection, they should have never been awarded that much to begin with, but I'm not sure it's fair to call them greedy for not wanting to take a $14,000 paycut. (Though I'm sure that's not what it is. I didn't start the $18/$25 comparison). The less complicated way of dealing with that would be to freeze the wages until such time as it is more in line with what it should be. No doubt some would accept that, but they really can't say anything lest they be ostracized their union and the last thing you want to do is to be on the bad side of the rabid union zealots. Sadly, those in charge of part of the zealots, and not entirely prone to reasonableness.

Though, it's strange. There seems to be some concern that they are paid far too much for a job that just isn't worth that kind of cash. While at the same time, when the job isn't being done, it does seem to cause a lot of problems. Thus they get to realize that while they're job may not be all that demanding, it's apparently quite important.

[sonyminidiscman]

You see, though, where they might balk at taking a $7 an hour pay cut. I'm not sure many here would say "You're right, I'm making too much, cut my wage by a quarter".

I don't dispute the fact that $25 seems somewhat excessive for garbage collection, they should have never been awarded that much to begin with, but I'm not sure it's fair to call them greedy for not wanting to take a $14,000 paycut. (Though I'm sure that's not what it is. I didn't start the $18/$25 comparison). The less complicated way of dealing with that would be to freeze the wages until such time as it is more in line with what it should be. No doubt some would accept that, but they really can't say anything lest they be ostracized their union and the last thing you want to do is to be on the bad side of the rabid union zealots. Sadly, those in charge of part of the zealots, and not entirely prone to reasonableness.

Though, it's strange. There seems to be some concern that they are paid far too much for a job that just isn't worth that kind of cash. While at the same time, when the job isn't being done, it does seem to cause a lot of problems. Thus they get to realize that while they're job may not be all that demanding, it's apparently quite important.

no its not important............... if they let me dump my own garbage, i wouldn't care at all........... what kind of would is this......... fine, don't pick up my damn garbage.....................but don't stop me from dumping my own!!! Picking up garbage should be a 10 bucks an hour job. capped to 12 bucks an hour..... u don't even need an education to do that job... just pick up the damn bags....how much brain do u need...


and that women on the video saying oh... their member risk their lives and walk to work during the black out...... wtf...... thats called job responsibility, if ur job is to fix power lines, then obviously its you who need to go fix it when power goes down.......

[jstaneon]

no its not important............... if they let me dump my own garbage, i wouldn't care at all........... what kind of would is this......... fine, don't pick up my damn garbage.....................but don't stop me from dumping my own!!! Picking up garbage should be a 10 bucks an hour job. capped to 12 bucks an hour..... u don't even need an education to do that job... just pick up the damn bags....how much brain do u need...


No no....its all about the number of bags you can pick up. There was a video on CityTV of the CUPEs mocking people dropping off their own trash. I was laughing pretty hard because Im sure I can pickup more bags than the lazy POS who was taunting people. Maybe ill go down there today to have some fun :lol:

[thomsonst780]

no its not important............... if they let me dump my own garbage, i wouldn't care at all........... what kind of would is this......... fine, don't pick up my damn garbage.....................but don't stop me from dumping my own!!! Picking up garbage should be a 10 bucks an hour job. capped to 12 bucks an hour..... u don't even need an education to do that job... just pick up the damn bags....how much brain do u need...



Why would anyone pick up gross trash for $12 when starbucks will pay you $15 in 3 months with full training regardless of any education (in yvr anyways)?

G-man is a highly undesirable job. When was the last time you were at a bar and people bragged about being dumpster cleaners?

And compounded with the venomous hatred you flying monkeys are dumping on those picking up YOUR garbage - you really think they would work for less?

I wouldn't pick up your shmutz for $50 hr.

[st7860]

in Vancouver the garbage men don't even have to pick up a can - the trucks have a robotic arm to do that for them - does toronto have that type of garbage truck too?

[thomsonst780]

in Vancouver the garbage men don't even have to pick up a can - the trucks have a robotic arm to do that for them - does toronto have that type of garbage truck too?

we live in the best place on earth, thank god.

(except for RCMP killing airport travellers, a gazillion dollar debt tba with the olympdicks, a min $600k to buy a house in the city and transit that blows more then escobar, rain non stop and worst drivers anywhere)

http://elsbro.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/BC%20License%20plate.jpg

[MasterXan]

in Vancouver the garbage men don't even have to pick up a can - the trucks have a robotic arm to do that for them - does toronto have that type of garbage truck too?

we got trucks that pick up dumpsters but not cans.

>:(

[ever1221]

in Vancouver the garbage men don't even have to pick up a can - the trucks have a robotic arm to do that for them - does toronto have that type of garbage truck too?

Vancouver is nice, except, they taser people a lot over there lol.

[help_questions]

Why would anyone pick up gross trash for $12 when starbucks will pay you $15 in 3 months with full training regardless of any education (in yvr anyways)?

G-man is a highly undesirable job. When was the last time you were at a bar and people bragged about being dumpster cleaners?

And compounded with the venomous hatred you flying monkeys are dumping on those picking up YOUR garbage - you really think they would work for less?

I wouldn't pick up your shmutz for $50 hr.

You do make a point that perhaps $12 is too little to may a garbage man, but I contend that IF there are people willing to do it for $12, those people should be hired immediately. Every dollar saved is a good thing for the city.

Etobicoke is a great example of how cost savings can be achieved in garbage collection. If they can get it done for $18/hour the city has a duty to the taxpayers to achieve similar cost savings. Paying anything more is inefficient and wasteful.

[kkvvpp]

You see, though, where they might balk at taking a $7 an hour pay cut. I'm not sure many here would say "You're right, I'm making too much, cut my wage by a quarter".

I don't dispute the fact that $25 seems somewhat excessive for garbage collection, they should have never been awarded that much to begin with, but I'm not sure it's fair to call them greedy for not wanting to take a $14,000 paycut. (Though I'm sure that's not what it is. I didn't start the $18/$25 comparison). The less complicated way of dealing with that would be to freeze the wages until such time as it is more in line with what it should be. No doubt some would accept that, but they really can't say anything lest they be ostracized their union and the last thing you want to do is to be on the bad side of the rabid union zealots. Sadly, those in charge of part of the zealots, and not entirely prone to reasonableness.

Unions do have a place and I'm not entirely anti-union like my posts my suggest. But there is a difference between protection of worker rights and greed.

No one has suggested that they take almost a 30% paycut, it's just something for everyone to consider. They make more then their peers who perform the same service with the same level of satisfaction AND want an outdated banking system?

Though, it's strange. There seems to be some concern that they are paid far too much for a job that just isn't worth that kind of cash. While at the same time, when the job isn't being done, it does seem to cause a lot of problems. Thus they get to realize that while they're job may not be all that demanding, it's apparently quite important.

Every job has their niche in society and serves an important role in one way or another. That is only a PART of what should determine your wages though.

You can train and replace garbage workers A LOT easier then if you had to train and replace the accountants, city planners and other members who work as civil servants.

Why are you attacking a poster? Did he/she make a point that was logical, thus triggering the CUPE knee jerk response of attaching the individual, not the argument?

He's a troll.

[DuDe1411]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5b/Trashofthetitanstruck.png

[thomsonst780]

HAHA

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsons/images/1/19/TrashoftheTitans.jpg




He's a troll.

LOL - so you go for the personal insults when your mind cannot come up with an argument.


You really don't know how this works do you. But that's ok, you're posting like 20 a day, you'll get noticed soon enough. What was your previous user name on RFD that got you banned.

[nhui06]

While there is nothing wrong for people to stand up for their rights, especially when they do not agree with their new contracts or if they are having benefits taken out BUT there is something wrong when you are significantly hurting the rest of the public. THAT is what is wrong with unions and their ability to strike. There is a big difference between before when unions were first formed to protect worker safety and basic standard of living versus the 21st century union that holds the public hostage for perks and wage increases when most city workers are paid above market value anyways.

I wish there is a party in Canada that has the guts to change the ways unions/labour relations work so we can stop this crap. You want to walk off the job, that's fine, but don't stop people from throwing out their own garbage, or having to pay extra to send their child to daycare or take valuable days off work just to perseve 'dignity' and pay raises.

Yes the city council are also greedy but let the public handle David Miller and his gang come election, we really need to vote this guy out.

[thomsonst780]

I wish there is a party in Canada that has the guts to change the ways unions/labour relations work so we can stop this crap.

The Nazi party broke up unions good in the 1930s. Ah yes, the good old days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

During the night of February 27, 1933, the Reichstag fire provided Hitler with a convenient excuse for suppressing his opponents. The following day, he persuaded President Paul von Hindenburg to sign an emergency decree suspending civil liberties and stripping the power of the federal German states. Opponents were imprisoned first in improvised camps (wilde Lager) and later in an organized system of Nazi concentration camps. On March 23, the Reichstag passed an “Enabling Law” which granted Hitler dictatorial powers. Unions were abolished and political parties, other than the National Socialists, forbidden.

[danfromwaterloo]

The Nazi party broke up unions good in the 1930s. Ah yes, the good old days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

So I guess anybody who hates unions is a nazi, right?

Wow - I had no idea we had Dick Cheney on our board!

[thomsonst780]

So I guess anybody who hates unions is a nazi, right?

Wow - I had no idea we had Dick Cheney on our board!

Still waiting for your apology for mistaken statement that no police go on strike.

And I was offering an example of a political party that abolished unions. That was the first one that came to me - can you think of another that abolished unions?

Dick Cheney? Really now, we know who the only Dick is here.

[sonyminidiscman]

Why would anyone pick up gross trash for $12 when starbucks will pay you $15 in 3 months with full training regardless of any education (in yvr anyways)?

G-man is a highly undesirable job. When was the last time you were at a bar and people bragged about being dumpster cleaners?

And compounded with the venomous hatred you flying monkeys are dumping on those picking up YOUR garbage - you really think they would work for less?

I wouldn't pick up your shmutz for $50 hr.

What are you talking about. Will starbuck hire ANYONE who applies??? does working at starbuck need customer service skills? does picking up garbage need that? i doubt ppl will brag about being a waitress at starbucks... Gman is not a job that everyone wants... but there are ppl out there that has to do it and willing do it.......

I, the flying monkeys, don't hate garbage man... I hate them for not allowing me to DUMP MY OWN GARBAGE! I don't give a rats a$$ if they don't pick it up..... even if they werent on strike, i'd much rather drop off the garbage myself so that it don't stink up my garage ... especailly those food leftovers

a 2 week pickup schedule is a joke

[thomsonst780]

What are you talking about. Will starbuck hire ANYONE who applies??? does working at starbuck need customer service skills? does picking up garbage need that? i doubt ppl will brag about being a waitress at starbucks... Gman is not a job that everyone wants... but there are ppl out there that has to do it and willing do it.......

I, the flying monkeys, don't hate garbage man... I hate them for not allowing me to DUMP MY OWN GARBAGE! I don't give a rats a$$ if they don't pick it up..... even if they werent on strike, i'd much rather drop off the garbage myself so that it don't stink up my garage ... especailly those food leftovers

a 2 week pickup schedule is a joke

In vancouver they are hiring everybody - they will train you. My tenant is a manger there and he is begging for bodies to work there.

[sonyminidiscman]

In vancouver they are hiring everybody - they will train you. My tenant is a manger there and he is begging for bodies to work there.

thats like me saying, hong kong don't have unions........its much better....

when they strike, they are fired and new ppl hired... simple as that....... does that apply to toronto? i don't think so...

[thomsonst780]

thats like me saying, hong kong don't have unions........its much better....

when they strike, they are fired and new ppl hired... simple as that....... does that apply to toronto? i don't think so...


i totally appreciate what you are saying and its damn inconvenient not getting a service you pay for. when van went on strike for almost 2 months i was annoyed i did not get a tax rebate from the city - but what are you gonna do? rant on a soapbox like some mad monkey about how it all sucks?

or be a manche (man) and a little philosophical (educate yourself by reading some history books) and just make do as best you can (legally).

sometimes you have to look at lot of cracks in the sidewalk before you see a flower ~ make an effort and let the silly strike pass you over.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_nD0xS6E8IZA/R1FmlqHXUMI/AAAAAAAAA8Y/YcwttWXKSHY/S300/flower_sidewalk_crack.jpg

[danfromwaterloo]

Still waiting for your apology for mistaken statement that no police go on strike.

And I was offering an example of a political party that abolished unions. That was the first one that came to me - can you think of another that abolished unions?

Dick Cheney? Really now, we know who the only Dick is here.

Don't you have a picket line you should be a part of somewhere? Or are you on one of your "sick days"?

[KorruptioN]

Don't you have a picket line you should be a part of somewhere? Or are you on one of your "sick days"?

You could've just called him a "union shill"... you know you wanted to.

[Sepiraph]

Why would anyone pick up gross trash for $12 when starbucks will pay you $15 in 3 months with full training regardless of any education (in yvr anyways)?

G-man is a highly undesirable job. When was the last time you were at a bar and people bragged about being dumpster cleaners?

And compounded with the venomous hatred you flying monkeys are dumping on those picking up YOUR garbage - you really think they would work for less?

I wouldn't pick up your shmutz for $50 hr.

Because someone would do it for less.

The Nazi party broke up unions good in the 1930s. Ah yes, the good old days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism


You just Godwin-ed this thread.

http://www.smsdesign.net/images/Godwin.jpg

[sonyminidiscman]

i totally appreciate what you are saying and its damn inconvenient not getting a service you pay for. when van went on strike for almost 2 months i was annoyed i did not get a tax rebate from the city - but what are you gonna do? rant on a soapbox like some mad monkey about how it all sucks?

or be a manche (man) and a little philosophical (educate yourself by reading some history books) and just make do as best you can (legally).

sometimes you have to look at lot of cracks in the sidewalk before you see a flower ~ make an effort and let the silly strike pass you over.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_nD0xS6E8IZA/R1FmlqHXUMI/AAAAAAAAA8Y/YcwttWXKSHY/S300/flower_sidewalk_crack.jpg


You know I really don't care about getting a tax refund for not getting the garbage service. I just can't stand the garbage smell under this 30 degree heat in my garage...... i am about to puke every morning i got to my garage.

i even have to turn on another fridge to freeze my garabage ... talk about going green!

Not sure u know, but toronto has this garbage system where we have to seperate food waste from garbage.

as i said, if they let me dump my garbage at the dump site, i won't care if they strike for a year.

[ever1221]

You know I really don't care about getting a tax refund for not getting the garbage service. I just can't stand the garbage smell under this 30 degree heat in my garage...... i am about to puke every morning i got to my garage.

i even have to turn on another fridge to freeze my garabage ... talk about going green!

Not sure u know, but toronto has this garbage system where we have to seperate food waste from garbage.

as i said, if they let me dump my garbage at the dump site, i won't care if they strike for a year.

Then do something about it man, dont just let go...those union workers blocking entery are not suppose to be doing that...get a number of people who werent allowed in and try to push those b***** away...do something people god damn it...

[_Allan_]

we live in the best place on earth, thank god.

(except for RCMP killing airport travellers, a gazillion dollar debt tba with the olympdicks, a min $600k to buy a house in the city and transit that blows more then escobar, rain non stop and worst drivers anywhere)

http://elsbro.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/BC%20License%20plate.jpg It's 600k to buy a decent CONDO in Toronto ... that's around 1000sq feet in an apartment, on the 3rd floor if your lucky. And sorry, Toronto has the worst drivers ...

in Vancouver the garbage men don't even have to pick up a can - the trucks have a robotic arm to do that for them - does toronto have that type of garbage truck too?

In the last year, the Toronto Garbage trucks have been upgraded with lift arms for the bins.

[sonyminidiscman]

Then do something about it man, dont just let go...those union workers blocking entery are not suppose to be doing that...get a number of people who werent allowed in and try to push those b***** away...do something people god damn it...

i am all in ... whos got an old old car..... we can take off the cat and muffler and then just continue to idle the car at the picket line........ have them smell some fumes

[cmge]

Then do something about it man, dont just let go...those union workers blocking entery are not suppose to be doing that...get a number of people who werent allowed in and try to push those b***** away...do something people god damn it...

http://www.latest-science-news.com/images/catapult.jpg

Step 1) build catapult
Step 2) drive to picketed waste transfer station
Step 3) ????
Step 4) Profit?

[ever1221]

try to walk in, and if they get physical, just tell them if they touch you, you call call the police...and they probably will, so then call the police...this way they wont stand in ur way

[DuDe1411]

one more... i wish there was more video of the simpsons around
your Union leader
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/56/Last_Exit_to_Springfield.png
Mayor Miller
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/56/Mr_Burns.png

[xstatik]

try to walk in, and if they get physical, just tell them if they touch you, you call call the police...and they probably will, so then call the police...this way they wont stand in ur way

Good idea...

[xstatik]

i am all in ... whos got an old old car..... we can take off the cat and muffler and then just continue to idle the car at the picket line........ have them smell some fumes

Be careful.. The Mayor Miller's Secret Police/Stasi/KGB/SS (ie. Toronto By-Law Enforcement) will give you a ticket for idling!!

[5dark]

The Nazi party broke up unions good in the 1930s. Ah yes, the good old days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

Right, because that had nothing to do with his desire for power.

[ever1221]

you guys can just dump the garbage in the entrance, if they call police tell them they arent allow u in...they have no choice but to drag it inside

[sonyminidiscman]

i feel like rubbing some dead fish over the concrete where they are sitting at night .... or what is there that is incredibly smelly that i can spray on the ground ? i bet u they bring their own garbage into the station every morning.

[dx1997]

I don't know if this is a thread about the political aspect of the strike, but I just wanted to ask everyone, how are you coping?

Where is your garbage going? How are you holding out? Have you been screwed over by no daycare?

[random1315]

I was waiting for this to happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Is that the best you can do to defend these unions?

[sonyminidiscman]

I don't know if this is a thread about the political aspect of the strike, but I just wanted to ask everyone, how are you coping?

Where is your garbage going? How are you holding out? Have you been screwed over by no daycare?

i strapped my garbage behind my motorcycle to bring to the dump site........and i was denied access to it, so i left......and i don't know what happened.....the strap must have been lose of something......... when i got to the destination...i lost it......how sad was i...

[corrupt123]

Is there anywhere that lists (simply in bullet-form or something) exactly what the unions want, and what the city is willing to give?

All this talk about the city demanding that they take pay cuts seems a little out there. I haven't heard any of that, and if that's the case I can quite easily understand them striking. I was under the impression though that the city is/was saying that they should sit tight with what they've got, and that next year or 2 years or whatever they'll negotiate increases, and the union wasn't having any of that. I didn't think the city was trying to take away their salaries.

[Winkle]

Because someone would do it for less.




You just Godwin-ed this thread.

http://www.smsdesign.net/images/Godwin.jpg

ROFL-COPTER

HI-larious

Those Local 416 folks can learn a thing or two from the LCBO workers union... you know like asking for things that are much more reasonable and actually acting in good faith and will by postponing strike-action as long as negotiations continue so they don't hold the average person hostage?

[jstaneon]

try to walk in, and if they get physical, just tell them if they touch you, you call call the police...and they probably will, so then call the police...this way they wont stand in ur way

we were cleaning out one of our condos today for the new tenants coming. Decided to head down to the drop off for fun. The wife went first for fun, and as one of the idiots came up to her I got out of the truck to follow her...and when the guy saw me come up behind her, he didnt even say boo to her... just watched as we went on our merry way :lol:

[Narci]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/07/10/comprehensive-offer.html

Toronto's striking unions reject city's latest offer

"Both unions have requested wage increases of more than three per cent in each year of a new collective agreement."

The offer made to the unions contains wage increases of one per cent in each of the first two years of a four-year contract. The third and fourth years would see wages rise by two and three per cent, respectively.

[flexwong]

privatization. end of story.

[wallop]

and here we go again...

[help_questions]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/07/10/comprehensive-offer.html

Toronto's striking unions reject city's latest offer

"Both unions have requested wage increases of more than three per cent in each year of a new collective agreement."

The offer made to the unions contains wage increases of one per cent in each of the first two years of a four-year contract. The third and fourth years would see wages rise by two and three per cent, respectively.

i guess they want a larger share of our tax dollars

privatization. end of story.

exactly.

[Rx-87]

anyone else read the comments on the news outlets such as the Star & the Globe and Mail?

A lot of the stuff there is pretty interesting.. yet a lot of the comments are downright stupid and irrational..

One particular one I find exceptionally funny is the idea that with the "information highway, i.e. internet", people will become better informed citizens and make the right decisions..

Though what they fail to realize is that not all people are rational and can at times fail to reason... :lol:

The above will only exist in a utopian society....

And regarding information about the two parties and what they want?? Just do a deep search on Cupe / local 416's website... its pretty hard to find but its there..

[ndrew029]

anyone else read the comments on the news outlets such as the Star & the Globe and Mail?


I love reading the comments of the fellow Miller bashers at The Star.

[hellzno]

You see, though, where they might balk at taking a $7 an hour pay cut. I'm not sure many here would say "You're right, I'm making too much, cut my wage by a quarter".

This raises an excellent point because in the "real world", if we didn't feel like our wages were acceptable, we would look for another job. If we can't find a higher paying job, we'd assume that the "market" has effectively set wages at "market value".

Unions essentially skew the "market value" of what wages should be and what wages are. Think of the city as a company and every single tax paying member as a stakeholder (or shareholder). Isn't it in our best interest to hire the most cost efficient labour possible? If there are plenty of people willing to pick up trash for a lot lower than a unionized worker, wouldn't it make sense from a stakeholders' perspective to allow that? Hell, would you want your city to waste money on unionized workers when similar ununionized workers would cost far less?

I don't dispute the fact that $25 seems somewhat excessive for garbage collection, they should have never been awarded that much to begin with, but I'm not sure it's fair to call them greedy for not wanting to take a $14,000 paycut. (Though I'm sure that's not what it is. I didn't start the $18/$25 comparison).

You know, if I'm made redundent at work, I don't take any paycut... I get fired. Why should unionized workers be insulated from the effects of the market? If the rest of the world is taking cuts and making concessions, why does it make sense for unionized workers to make more money? $14,000 seems like a lot, but its the market telling you to suck it the **** up. Don't like picking up garbage for a lot less money? Get another job like you or I would have to do.

The less complicated way of dealing with that would be to freeze the wages until such time as it is more in line with what it should be. No doubt some would accept that, but they really can't say anything lest they be ostracized their union and the last thing you want to do is to be on the bad side of the rabid union zealots. Sadly, those in charge of part of the zealots, and not entirely prone to reasonableness.

Let the market decide. Eventually, there will be a balance of the lowest price-to-acceptable quality equilibrium.

Though, it's strange. There seems to be some concern that they are paid far too much for a job that just isn't worth that kind of cash. While at the same time, when the job isn't being done, it does seem to cause a lot of problems. Thus they get to realize that while they're job may not be all that demanding, it's apparently quite important.

Its important because someone needs to do it. Whether it needs to be done at a ridiculous wage is another story.

As a consumer, don't we love to shop around, have options? Why is it that the government (and companies) are handcuffed into overpaying union workers?

[MasterXan]

anyone watched the David Miller interview on CNN?

[Troodon]

This raises an excellent point because in the "real world", if we didn't feel like our wages were acceptable, we would look for another job. If we can't find a higher paying job, we'd assume that the "market" has effectively set wages at "market value".

Unions essentially skew the "market value" of what wages should be and what wages are.

And you can see that when they are complaining about a $7 pay cut while there are people in McDonalds making only $6.75.

[user01]

anyone watched the David Miller interview on CNN?

Watching now...

For others, here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwmS-8cUZdg

[Churo1]

They won't strike. Don't have the guts. A strike will not happen tomorrow, or any other day for that matter.

[brunes]

I love reading the comments of the fellow Miller bashers at The Star.

You know, I am not from Toronto, but can someone pls. explain to me why people are blaming Miller for the strike?

[user01]

You know, I am not from Toronto, but can someone pls. explain to me why people are blaming Miller for the strike?

Cuz he's not doing anything to fix the situation, and no one likes him.

[Kid A]

what do you guys think of Toronto's offer?

7% raise over four years, removal of sick bank days, cash payouts for the banked sick days people have amongst the biggest things

[I am XeNo]

what do you guys think of Toronto's offer?

7% raise over four years, removal of sick bank days, cash payouts for the banked sick days people have amongst the biggest things

I think that they should have gave these unions the same offer they gave the other city workers inluding fire/police, ttc, hydro and city councillors when negotiations began at the beginning of this year. Would have avoided this entire issue and all of the city workers would recieve the same adjustment in salary and benefits.

Now the city is trying to argue that even though almost every other city worker is getting a 3% raise this year and no major changes in benefits (which was negotiated only months ago in the midst of negotiations with the current striking unions), these two striking unions do not deserve the same and in fact deserve much, much less. I found it hilarious to hear the city councillor on CityTV say that he deserved a 3% raise this year due to the increased cost of living.

It could become very interesting if more paramedics decide to walk off the job.

[brunes]

Cuz he's not doing anything to fix the situation, and no one likes him.

I don't really understand what you want him or the city to do...

He keep making offers, generous ones, the union is rejecting them, saying they "will not negotiate" on their ridiculous sick day claim.

The city has basically no other options.. they can present offers, and that's it. They have to wait for the province to step in otherwise, thee is nothing *legally* they can do. All this talk of "fire them all and replace them" is a waste of time as you can't do that.

Your grievance should be with the union not the city.

[user01]

I don't really understand what you want him or the city to do...

He keep making offers, generous ones, the union is rejecting them, saying they "will not negotiate" on their ridiculous sick day claim.

The city has basically no other options.. they can present offers, and that's it. They have to wait for the province to step in otherwise, thee is nothing *legally* they can do. All this talk of "fire them all and replace them" is a waste of time as you can't do that.

Your grievance should be with the union not the city.
Generous offers? I think he's making cheap offers, otherwise, why would the union be rejecting it? If it was already generous, the strike would have ended already.

[Churo1]

Generous offers? I think he's making cheap offers, otherwise, why would the union be rejecting it? If it was already generous, the strike would have ended already.

They are rejecting the offers because they are greedy and stubborn. They believe that if they don't get everything they ask for, regardless of how ridiculous it may be, they are disgracing their union ancestors who fought so vigilantly for the rights they enjoy today.

[dragon_drift]

Generous offers? I think he's making cheap offers, otherwise, why would the union be rejecting it? If it was already generous, the strike would have ended already.

no...they (union) want even more than what is reasonable or generous.

[Churo1]

no...they (union) want even more than what is reasonable or generous.

This much is true. The union probably realizes this as well. I believe the feeling from the union's side is that if they accept the offer, they will be seen as giving in to the management, almost like a surrender, which may lead to them accepting a slighty worse offer next time, and this will continue until their rights are lost. From the union's point of view, they can't give up any of their demands as it will be seen as a victory from the managements point of view and possibly lead to further problems for the union down the road.

[chinese zzz]

pure answer .. !!:D

100% agreed :cheesygri

throwing garbage??? :confused: for around $$ 17 .?:confused:

My uncle can do it for $$ 10:D:D

Cuz he's not doing anything to fix the situation, and no one likes him.

[Churo1]

pure answer .. !!:D

100% agreed :cheesygri

throwing garbage??? :confused: for around $$ 17 .?:confused:

My uncle can do it for $$ 10:D:D

We all know there are people who will do it for less. The union however has a good situation for themselves and are willing to do anything to defend it.

Also, what do you mean by "pure answer"? As in there were no questions or comments, just 100% answers?

[dragon_drift]

Can the city just forget the union and hire non-union workers?

I had to clean my garage floor with all the maggots and garbage juice. I'm running out of places to store garbage, sigh.

[Churo1]

Can the city just forget the union and hire non-union workers?

I had to clean my garage floor with all the maggots and garbage juice. I'm running out of places to store garbage, sigh.

That solution is obviously idealistic and unrealistic. Consider expending less waste in the mean time.

[wallop]

I suggest we begin burning garbage.

This is a health issue, rodents and insects are proliferating.

We must do something.

BURN

[Rx-87]

:lol: :arrowu:

I can already imagine the wafting smell of "burnt garbage" in the morning...

[winner2000]

pure answer .. !!:D

100% agreed :cheesygri

throwing garbage??? :confused: for around $$ 17 .?:confused:

My uncle can do it for $$ 10:D:D

.....uhhhh, what???

And stop abusing the emoticons!

[Churo1]

I suggest we begin burning garbage.

This is a health issue, rodents and insects are proliferating.

We must do something.

BURN

The idea has been proposed before. The environmental effects could be disastrous.

[Whitedart]

Cuz he's not doing anything to fix the situation, and no one likes him.

Clearly he is not liked, and that is why he was voted in for a second term in 2006.

I don't really understand what you want him or the city to do...

Don't you know that as Mayor, Miller is supposed to snap his fingers and magically fix every issue for every Toronto constituent?

The city, like other cites, has a chief administrative officer (city manager), HR commissioner, labour relations staff, and a provincial mediator at hand who are negotiating an agreement with the union. And because this group can not reach an agreement with the union that is satisfactory to council's direction as a whole (and not just Miller), Miller is seen to be at fault.

In typical selfish Toronto attitude, no one really look at the actual people involved, aside from Miller.

[Shimso]

Generous offers? I think he's making cheap offers, otherwise, why would the union be rejecting it? If it was already generous, the strike would have ended already.

so the solution is to give everything the union wants?


I strongly dislike Miller, but I don't think this an issue that's wholly his fault. Sid Ryan will simply ask for the most he thinks he can get (and then some) no matter what.

[wizuriel]

Wonder if the citizens could field a class action law suit against the union for illegal obstruction of traffic and for them limiting what can be thrown in the temp dump sites. If they are on strike what gives them the moral of legal authority to do what they are doing?

[ndrew029]

Miller is in bed with the unions one night, and sleeping on the couch the next night. He was "tougher" with those residents illegally dumping garbage than the picketers blocking people from entering the dumpsites. A little too wishy-washy for my liking.

While I don't expect him to wave his wand a solve the dispute, his leadership has been mediocre. Not to mention his "everything under the sun tax", a failure of a green bin program, his mishandling of the stimulus application...all the while, denying responsbility and being arrogant as if he's never wrong.

[shipill]

They should fire all these lazy workes and let them go out and find work to feed themselves. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

[Pete Jones]

Miller is in bed with the unions one night, and sleeping on the couch the next night. He was "tougher" with those residents illegally dumping garbage than the picketers blocking people from entering the dumpsites. A little too wishy-washy for my liking.

No wishy-washy about it. In his first few statements as mayor during the strike, he made it perfectly clear what side of the fence he was on with his statements about dumping and disrupting pickets.

Keep in mind, during the 2002 municipal strike, he was walking the picket line in support of the union!

While I don't expect him to wave his wand a solve the dispute, his leadership has been mediocre. Not to mention his "everything under the sun tax", a failure of a green bin program, his mishandling of the stimulus application...all the while, denying responsbility and being arrogant as if he's never wrong.

Bingo! It all comes down to leadership. Where was miller during the propane explosion last year? On vacation in B.C.

Like him or not, you have to admit that Mel Lastman was if anything a leader. When something happened, he was right there and he made sure that things got done. Of course, the mayor doesn't do everything, but, ultimately, part of the package is that mayor needs to be a figurehead that, at the very least, should be available during times of city crisis.

As for incinerating garbage, just think. If John Tory had been elected Mayor, we would probably have been incinerating our garbage by now. If one actually looks at the emissions figures from a modern incinerator generates, (instead of going along with the knee-jerk reaction of it being environmentally disastrous) you would realize why municipalities all around Toronto already incinerate their waste.

I just hope that everyone remembers this next year at the polls.

--Pete

[ndrew029]

Bingo! It all comes down to leadership. Where was miller during the propane explosion last year? On vacation in B.C.


Exactly. His disappearing acts and vows of silence during serious matters has become his trademark. But when the subject is streetcars, you can't shut him up.

Coming on tv and saying "Enough is enough!" every few days is not leadership.