why is there so much emphasis on what we 'can' afford, when really we can't?

[citizen22]

This is driving me nuts as I've been searching for a mean salary that meets this perspective/ideal monetary intake, which can correlate with over-consumption.

Everywhere I go, there is influence on me telling me what I can afford/will be able to afford when I graduate; yet, reality tells an entirely different story: post-grad 'employed', doing whatever the hell it is they're doing, are taking in around $50, 000 a year. Tax that, and I think you're seeing around $35-38, 000 a year. How in gods name is someone on that income supposed to 'live' this affordable life? Take into consideration $12, 000-$24, 000 mortgage/rent, above the cost of food, car insurance, gas, students loans, etc.

I'm really curious to hear of how the post-grad 'financial' mentality has evolved from how it was pre-university (and during university).

My reasoning for creating this post in general? All 'designer' clothing labels, luxury vehicles, fine dinning, and other life's luxuries which seem to have this 'affordable' image that is justified by 'life's post-grad success'. I don't get it: what success? Profiteering prevents a lot of post-grad students (almost all) from actually seeing this expected income, yet consumption does not change much - even after the realization of how wrong their initial thoughts were.

Even more so, exploitation of celebs, business gurus, 'get rich quick schemes', lotto winners, etc. are at an all time high. It's as if, based on this simple interpretation of what I see, we are being indoctrined into 'living' a debt. I put emphasis on living because 'regret' does not seem to follow any over-consuming catalyst. We consume in relation to how others consume. This exploitation of the rich and famous actually makes the 'norm' consume in a similar manner: miniscule by numbers, but 'similar' through attitude.

Why? I can speak first hand in my stupidity for buying designer clothing - right out of high school - while I was working to save tuition under this pretense: Education = financial security; however, this doesn't seem to be the case any more. I see more and more students living in outrageous debt, without a care in world.

I think this is an interesting issue to analyze on a daily - social - basis. Just going outside and exposure to any of what I've said is immanent. What do you think?

[Zug_Zwang]

Out of curiosity, did you write your thoughts in another language and translate via Babelfish/Google?

I get the general premise of your post, but am having some trouble deciphering your synatax.

------

Back to the topic; if you are curious as to why so many grads saddle themselves with debt, I think you answered your own question through the admission that you yourself once lived beyond your means. Such are the pitfalls of an economic system based partly on an abstraction such as (consumer) "confidence". C'est la vie!

[citizen22]

Very good and true. I did answer 'my' question, but how I answered it may relate differently to how someone else answers it. I seem to contradict a lot of my own analysis on issues such as these. So having an outside interpretation is beneficial, to say the least.

I do apologize for how I organized that post, it was amidst frustration and adrenaline. I will clean it up with the removal of a few comas, and just segregate combined points into their own sentence.

[matkun]

I believe the term is "Keeping up with the Joneses". In the end society does tell us that richer people are better in some way. And if you aren't really rich it's easy to appear to be, atleast for a while.

I graduated a year ago and make about what you quoted. I'm planning to have paid of all loans by the end of this year, mainly by controlling expenses. I spend about 26,000 a year. Have a wife who is not currently working but still renting a single bedroom that we have been for a number of years now.

House prices are so unaffordable now that you have to pretty much sign away for 30 or more years. Yet we are living much better than 90% of the worlds popoulation.

[Zug_Zwang]

" I believe the term is "Keeping up with the Joneses". In the end society does tell us that richer people are better in some way. And if you aren't really rich it's easy to appear to be, atleast for a while. "

I think the OP is asking moreso into the underlying reason that drives ppl (RFDers in particuliar) to acquire massive debts, wether it's to keep up with the Jones', etc.

Is it naive optimism that their financial situation will improve to pay off these accumulated debts?

[pupazzo]

Out of curiosity, did you write your thoughts in another language and translate via Babelfish/Google?


Lol no kidding. XYZ language to tard translator hahaha

[pitz]

This is driving me nuts as I've been searching for a mean salary that meets this perspective/ideal monetary intake, which can correlate with over-consumption.


I assume that you're looking for a career path, with employers that will respect the investment you made in your skills, the investment you made in your education, and what you can bring to the table.

There's nothing wrong with this, but you have to understand that, for whatever reasons, the economy is strongly imbalanced.

For example, when I started out in engineering, my starting salary was $60k/year, or roughly $35/hour including benefits. Minimum wage was $6.75/hour. I made 5.2X minimum wage, and this was a relatively fair level of compensation given my investment.

Today, new engineering grads start out at $65k ($38/hour), and minimum wage is ~$9/hour. Only 4.2X minimum wage.

Relative salaries for university-educated professionals have dropped significantly.


I'm really curious to hear of how the post-grad 'financial' mentality has evolved from how it was pre-university (and during university).


A decade ago, university grads made more than they make today. A person goes into a university program expecting a certain standard of living when they graduate, based on how things were in the past. Today, this is not the case, unfortunately, so the discrepancy is agonizing.

A great example was the people who went into CS or Computer Engineering in the late 1990s, a time when new grads were receiving $7500 signing bonuses, $60-$80k starting salaries, parties, and perks, just for working in the tech industry, a vibrant industry from 1995-2000. The people who went into CS/CompE/EE after 1995 got to experience the vibrance of the sector, got good internships, etc. -- but mostly couldn't find jobs afterwards. Many of them took on significant amounts of debt in school (usually, to buy a car), in the belief that they would graduate to a $80k starting salary and be able to pay it off quickly. Of course, when they graduated, the industry had collapsed, and even to this day, hiring and salaries have not recovered.


get it: what success? Profiteering prevents a lot of post-grad students (almost all) from actually seeing this expected income, yet consumption does not change much - even after the realization of how wrong their initial thoughts were.


Debt has to be paid off eventually. The same thing that happened to the EE/CS/CompE's back in 2001, is happening to the accounting/finance grads right now.


Why? I can speak first hand in my stupidity for buying designer clothing - right out of high school - while I was working to save tuition under this pretense: Education = financial security; however, this doesn't seem to be the case any more. I see more and more students living in outrageous debt, without a care in world.


At some point, (useful) education is going to have to provide a return on investment. It always has in the past. The cost of education has risen dramatically in the past decade. The minimum required return on investment/return on equity has increased dramatically because of the collapse of the financial markets. Educational investment is countercyclical and interest rate sensitive; a rising interest rate environment is actually very favourable for people who have made investments in university education because it increases the cashflows that a student will require before (rationally) making a choice to pursue a program. A depleted supply of grads, especially in expensive and hard to obtain fields (ie: engineering, etc.) will push salaries up in a high interest rate environment.

Also, a high interest rate environment will mean that businesses will have to resort to developing and utilizing real capital, as opposed to relying on gains in financial capital. The past 20+ years has been accentuated by high returns in financial capital, which has left real capital (ie: R&D, physical plant, manufacturing equipment, infrastructure) completely neglected.

[UrbanPoet]

If your single... $50k can easily give you a food, condo, and a car. Even some entertainment.

[williamsauga]

If your single... $50k can easily give you a food, condo, and a car. Even some entertainment.

it depends on your lifestyle, some people wont even survive with $50K

[vavaju]

Simple solution: Stop living beyond your means.

[B0000rt]

Why? I can speak first hand in my stupidity for buying designer clothing - right out of high school - while I was working to save tuition under this pretense: Education = financial security; however, this doesn't seem to be the case any more. I see more and more students living in outrageous debt, without a care in world.

I think this is an interesting issue to analyze on a daily - social - basis. Just going outside and exposure to any of what I've said is immanent. What do you think?
Very interesting, and you probably won't find much people here in that very situation, after all we are all here at this website for a reason right?

Decades ago, all you needed was a high school diploma to get a decent job, now it's changed to an undegrad degree. I'm sure a decades from now it'll be a Masters ;)

Median credit card debt is what? Around $1900? I don't think this situation of debt is as widespread as everyone makes it out to believe.

[shawn99]

well part of the problem is our education system. Money management and personal finance is not taught in schools. It should be a mandatory everyone take before they can graduate. Learn to live within your means, save and invest for your financial future is not something a most fresh grad knows or understands very well.

[nalababe]

Actually most people I know have a pretty good grasp about what they can afford. Even many of the 30 something singles that I know end up renting with a housemate, take transit or have a used car...

Now, keep in mind, since these are 10+ years experience teachers they are making between 60 and 90k. But they choose to spend it on what matters. For some this means clothes, for others it means a big vacation each and every year....

[Zug_Zwang]

well part of the problem is our education system. Money management and personal finance is not taught in schools. It should be a mandatory everyone take before they can graduate. Learn to live within your means, save and invest for your financial future is not something a most fresh grad knows or understands very well.

While the basics should indeed be taught in school, I believe the onus falls on the parents. Afterall, they are the ones controlling the purse-strings. Teaching fiscal management in an abstract, theoretical manner will only get you so far. However, experiencing first hand the consequences, for better or worse, of your financial decisions would be a far more efficient means of getting the message across.

[BornRuff]

This is driving me nuts as I've been searching for a mean salary that meets this perspective/ideal monetary intake, which can correlate with over-consumption.

Everywhere I go, there is influence on me telling me what I can afford/will be able to afford when I graduate; yet, reality tells an entirely different story: post-grad 'employed', doing whatever the hell it is they're doing, are taking in around $50, 000 a year. Tax that, and I think you're seeing around $35-38, 000 a year. How in gods name is someone on that income supposed to 'live' this affordable life? Take into consideration $12, 000-$24, 000 mortgage/rent, above the cost of food, car insurance, gas, students loans, etc.

I'm really curious to hear of how the post-grad 'financial' mentality has evolved from how it was pre-university (and during university).

My reasoning for creating this post in general? All 'designer' clothing labels, luxury vehicles, fine dinning, and other life's luxuries which seem to have this 'affordable' image that is justified by 'life's post-grad success'. I don't get it: what success? Profiteering prevents a lot of post-grad students (almost all) from actually seeing this expected income, yet consumption does not change much - even after the realization of how wrong their initial thoughts were.

Even more so, exploitation of celebs, business gurus, 'get rich quick schemes', lotto winners, etc. are at an all time high. It's as if, based on this simple interpretation of what I see, we are being indoctrined into 'living' a debt. I put emphasis on living because 'regret' does not seem to follow any over-consuming catalyst. We consume in relation to how others consume. This exploitation of the rich and famous actually makes the 'norm' consume in a similar manner: miniscule by numbers, but 'similar' through attitude.

Why? I can speak first hand in my stupidity for buying designer clothing - right out of high school - while I was working to save tuition under this pretense: Education = financial security; however, this doesn't seem to be the case any more. I see more and more students living in outrageous debt, without a care in world.

I think this is an interesting issue to analyze on a daily - social - basis. Just going outside and exposure to any of what I've said is immanent. What do you think?

Expecting to graduate and live the high life isn't really reasonable. Why would you think you can spend $2,000 a month on housing right out of school? Most new grads live with room mates if they do move out, many will go back to living at home for a little bit.

If you get a job paying 50k a year right out of university though, you will be in really good shape. You can live a very good life if you want. The beauty of being young is that you have fewer costs. You don't have kids, you don't have a mortgage. Keep your fixed costs down, like don't spend tons on your housing or car(get room mates, no beamer), and you will have lots of money to play around with.

[faken]

If you get a job paying 50k a year right out of university though, you will be in really good shape. You can live a very good life if you want. The beauty of being young is that you have fewer costs. You don't have kids, you don't have a mortgage. Keep your fixed costs down, like don't spend tons on your housing or car(get room mates, no beamer), and you will have lots of money to play around with.

QFT! Honestly, if you learn to make a budget and stick to it. You'll do fine. Media makes you want all this stuff.. don't give in (unless it's on a red hot deal :razz:)

[kkvvpp]

This is driving me nuts as I've been searching for a mean salary that meets this perspective/ideal monetary intake, which can correlate with over-consumption.

Everywhere I go, there is influence on me telling me what I can afford/will be able to afford when I graduate; yet, reality tells an entirely different story: post-grad 'employed', doing whatever the hell it is they're doing, are taking in around $50, 000 a year. Tax that, and I think you're seeing around $35-38, 000 a year. How in gods name is someone on that income supposed to 'live' this affordable life? Take into consideration $12, 000-$24, 000 mortgage/rent, above the cost of food, car insurance, gas, students loans, etc.

I'm really curious to hear of how the post-grad 'financial' mentality has evolved from how it was pre-university (and during university).

My reasoning for creating this post in general? All 'designer' clothing labels, luxury vehicles, fine dinning, and other life's luxuries which seem to have this 'affordable' image that is justified by 'life's post-grad success'. I don't get it: what success? Profiteering prevents a lot of post-grad students (almost all) from actually seeing this expected income, yet consumption does not change much - even after the realization of how wrong their initial thoughts were.

Even more so, exploitation of celebs, business gurus, 'get rich quick schemes', lotto winners, etc. are at an all time high. It's as if, based on this simple interpretation of what I see, we are being indoctrined into 'living' a debt. I put emphasis on living because 'regret' does not seem to follow any over-consuming catalyst. We consume in relation to how others consume. This exploitation of the rich and famous actually makes the 'norm' consume in a similar manner: miniscule by numbers, but 'similar' through attitude.

Why? I can speak first hand in my stupidity for buying designer clothing - right out of high school - while I was working to save tuition under this pretense: Education = financial security; however, this doesn't seem to be the case any more. I see more and more students living in outrageous debt, without a care in world.

I think this is an interesting issue to analyze on a daily - social - basis. Just going outside and exposure to any of what I've said is immanent. What do you think?

Seems the advertising companies have really gotten to you. You even mentioned it yourself, 'luxury goods'. These are things that aren't essential to life and are paid for by excess disposable income.

We are born into debt and live our life servicing debt. Most of us will die with debt.

There's also been education inflation. Everyone and their mother's has some form of post secondary school degree. Before it was less common to see people walking around with a BA or whatever. Now they grow on trees.

[manixc]

simple solution: Stop living beyond your means.
+1

[sleepyguy]

Owning the condo would be pretty tough on 50K. But renting something under $800/mth would be good. Would have enough cash for small savings and some fun on weekends. -sg

If your single... $50k can easily give you a food, condo, and a car. Even some entertainment.

[bruizeman]

Owning the condo would be pretty tough on 50K. But renting something under $800/mth would be good. Would have enough cash for small savings and some fun on weekends. -sg

Well... with mortgage rates in the high 2%-low 3%, owning a condo is actually quite doable.

[Bullseye]

Single person
$50k/year = $3,100 net monthly

$1,100 mortgage (200K mortgage at 4.25%, 25 year amort)
$250 property taxes/condo fee
$250 utilties, cable/net/phone
$300 savings
$150 insurance (auto/home)
$300 car payment
$150 gas
$200 groceries

$2,700 total

Leaves you $400 for fun money, enough for a reasonably decent lifestyle for most. You'll be paying off a home and building equity, saving 10% of your pay, and paying off a vehicle. If the savings are put into an RRSP, you'll get back $1,100 a year at tax time, enough for a week somewhere sunny.

To me, this would be a nice lifestyle for a 25 year old, certainly better than me at that age. If nothing else changed except inflation adjustments to pay and expenses, this person would be comfortable for life and be able to retire, probably early.

[cityslicker]

Well... with mortgage rates in the high 2%-low 3%, owning a condo is actually quite doable.

It could be afordable right now with the current interest rate. However, in 5 years at renewal time, the interest rate might make it a burden in monthly fee, plus the condo fees keeps rising and repairs are always needed for older and more affordable condo.

[bruizeman]

It could be afordable right now with the current interest rate. However, in 5 years at renewal time, the interest rate might make it a burden in monthly fee, plus the condo fees keeps rising and repairs are always needed for older and more affordable condo.

Yes, but in 5 years you are no longer working at 50k a year either. Most should be able to double their income in 5 years.

[aac85]

Single person
$50k/year = $3,100 net monthly

$1,100 mortgage (200K mortgage at 4.25%, 25 year amort)
$250 property taxes/condo fee
$250 utilties, cable/net/phone
$300 savings
$150 insurance (auto/home)
$300 car payment
$150 gas
$200 groceries

$2,700 total

Leaves you $400 for fun money, enough for a reasonably decent lifestyle for most. You'll be paying off a home and building equity, saving 10% of your pay, and paying off a vehicle. If the savings are put into an RRSP, you'll get back $1,100 a year at tax time, enough for a week somewhere sunny.

To me, this would be a nice lifestyle for a 25 year old, certainly better than me at that age. If nothing else changed except inflation adjustments to pay and expenses, this person would be comfortable for life and be able to retire, probably early.

i would die on $400 a month....each golf round is at least 40-80 bucks...:(

[bruizeman]

i would die on $400 a month....each golf round is at least 40-80 bucks...:(

Get the new wii golf game with that extra fine-tuning club/remote. Suppose to be very very accurate simulation of real life.

[Spidey]

After being on here for awhile and hearing what some people say, its comes down to this, a lot of people are either ying or stretching the truth.

Im not saying everyone is, but I just find it hard to beleive that people under 30 can have a $200000 mortgage paid of, have 100,000 in savings and still travel, etc, etc and are only making between 50-75K a year

The math doesnt add up for the way they live. Unless Im missing something totally

[vavaju]

After being on here for awhile and hearing what some people say, its comes down to this, a lot of people are either ying or stretching the truth.

Im not saying everyone is, but I just find it hard to beleive that people under 30 can have a $200000 mortgage paid of, have 100,000 in savings and still travel, etc, etc and are only making between 50-75K a year

The math doesnt add up for the way they live. Unless Im missing something totally

It's not hard if you make some smart investment moves along with a frugal lifestyle.

Instead of buying an iphone or whatever people feels the "need" to have, I put all my cash into investments (real estates, stocks) during last few years and luckily it paid off. My wife and I are both under 30 and we will never need a mortgage or car loan. And even now, I never buy stuff unless it's on sale or enroll myself into money draining activities like going to the gym or play golf. We still live frugally, but we're both happy because we never need to worry about money for the rest of our lives.

[Spidey]

It's not hard if you make some smart investment moves along with a frugal lifestyle.

Instead of buying an iphone or whatever people feels the "need" to have, I put all my cash into investments (real estates, stocks) during last few years and luckily it paid off. My wife and I are both under 30 and we will never need a mortgage or car loan. And even now, I never buy stuff unless it's on sale or enroll myself into money draining activities like going to the gym or play golf. We still live frugally, but we're both happy because we never need to worry about money for the rest of our lives.

Im the same, I never get the next new thing. Ive had 2 cellphones in 10 years, anything I need is bought on sale, etc ,etc. I dont do have memberships to anything, and anything I do like biking is free after the inital investment.

So you got lucky investing, what if it went the other way, youd be screwed. Not everyone gets lucky in investing unfortunatly

But like someone else said, on here everyone seems to stretch the truth

Throw up your monthly numbers :-)

[kkvvpp]

After being on here for awhile and hearing what some people say, its comes down to this, a lot of people are either ying or stretching the truth.

Im not saying everyone is, but I just find it hard to beleive that people under 30 can have a $200000 mortgage paid of, have 100,000 in savings and still travel, etc, etc and are only making between 50-75K a year

The math doesnt add up for the way they live. Unless Im missing something totally

Mommy and daddy pay for a lot for a lot of people.

[vavaju]

Im the same, I never get the next new thing. Ive had 2 cellphones in 10 years, anything I need is bought on sale, etc ,etc. I dont do have memberships to anything, and anything I do like biking is free after the inital investment.

So you got lucky investing, what if it went the other way, youd be screwed. Not everyone gets lucky in investing unfortunatly

But like someone else said, on here everyone seems to stretch the truth

Throw up your monthly numbers :-)

Yeah you're right. Luck has 100% to do with everything. Honestly I can tell you if I shifted every move I made in the last 5 years by a few years later, I'd probably start off back at ground zero. I'm still regretting some moves I made last year when the downturn started.

Anyways, my numbers:

Monthly take home: ~$7500

Expenses: ~$900 around the house (no mortgage)

Car Expenses: ~$400 (no car payments)

So I save around $6000 each month...

[vavaju]

That's why I find it weird how people gauge how rich you are by how much you make. It really should be determined by how much you've "saved". But media doesn't like to portray that image otherwise they'd probably lose all their sponsors in this consumerism world.

A good defense is as important as a good offense.

[bruizeman]

That's why I find it weird how people gauge how rich you are by how much you make. It really should be determined by how much you've "saved". But media doesn't like to portray that image otherwise they'd probably lose all their sponsors in this consumerism world.

A good defense is as important as a good offense.

Revenue is a better gauge of how "rich" you are because for most people getting more money is harder than not spending as much.

I'll still stick to the salary gauge.

[malacus]

I've been out of school for not quite 4 years. I landed a 50k job.

I've saved up 60k in the last 4 years (15k/yr) while paying rent that has continually gone up (ugh) but I've enjoyed living in the heart of downtown Vancouver, with an astounding view of the water.

Things I've done to save money in no particular order:
- cut cable 8-9 years ago
- bought a bicycle and gear to use for commuting
- drive a rust bucket
- worked through university, graduated debt free
- entertainment books
- RFD
- shared accommodations with gf
- vacationed cheap (camping, cheap all-included cruises)

Just signed and sealed a 2br condo for 250k. This will be the first time I'll be living with debt. Either gf or myself alone can make all required payments (strata, mortgage, internet, hydro, etc) but we'd be living off non-name kraft dinner.

Please refer to me to unsaid company that doubles your salary every five years.

[jackwest]

This is driving me nuts as I've been searching for a mean salary that meets this perspective/ideal monetary intake, which can correlate with over-consumption.

Everywhere I go, there is influence on me telling me what I can afford/will be able to afford when I graduate; yet, reality tells an entirely different story: post-grad 'employed', doing whatever the hell it is they're doing, are taking in around $50, 000 a year. Tax that, and I think you're seeing around $35-38, 000 a year. How in gods name is someone on that income supposed to 'live' this affordable life? Take into consideration $12, 000-$24, 000 mortgage/rent, above the cost of food, car insurance, gas, students loans, etc.

I'm really curious to hear of how the post-grad 'financial' mentality has evolved from how it was pre-university (and during university).

My reasoning for creating this post in general? All 'designer' clothing labels, luxury vehicles, fine dinning, and other life's luxuries which seem to have this 'affordable' image that is justified by 'life's post-grad success'. I don't get it: what success? Profiteering prevents a lot of post-grad students (almost all) from actually seeing this expected income, yet consumption does not change much - even after the realization of how wrong their initial thoughts were.

Even more so, exploitation of celebs, business gurus, 'get rich quick schemes', lotto winners, etc. are at an all time high. It's as if, based on this simple interpretation of what I see, we are being indoctrined into 'living' a debt. I put emphasis on living because 'regret' does not seem to follow any over-consuming catalyst. We consume in relation to how others consume. This exploitation of the rich and famous actually makes the 'norm' consume in a similar manner: miniscule by numbers, but 'similar' through attitude.

Why? I can speak first hand in my stupidity for buying designer clothing - right out of high school - while I was working to save tuition under this pretense: Education = financial security; however, this doesn't seem to be the case any more. I see more and more students living in outrageous debt, without a care in world.

I think this is an interesting issue to analyze on a daily - social - basis. Just going outside and exposure to any of what I've said is immanent. What do you think?

wtf, ummm...too much wrong here, where do i get started?

1. you aren't supposed to afford everything at once at 50k
2. designer clothing has no value except the fact it is hard to afford, this is true of almost all things, ie, TVs, cameras. noone needed the best 50" 3 years ago so why do they need it now
3. im not indoctrinated in anything. who are these people telling you to blow your CC on more junk? noone is whispering over my shoulder
4. dont live in debt. lots of people do. laugh at them when you're older and can relax and sit in a decent home and they are fighting to pay off junk
5. celebs? i stopped caring what celebs did when...actually i never cared.

this post is so sad for so many reasons. people used to care and still care about things like liberty, freedom, happiness. people used to fight for their rights or fight to support their children through school.

now you morons are angst'd out about how to afford gucci and plasma tvs.

[citizen22]

wtf, ummm...too much wrong here, where do i get started?

1. you aren't supposed to afford everything at once at 50k
2. designer clothing has no value except the fact it is hard to afford, this is true of almost all things, ie, TVs, cameras. noone needed the best 50" 3 years ago so why do they need it now
3. im not indoctrinated in anything. who are these people telling you to blow your CC on more junk? noone is whispering over my shoulder
4. dont live in debt. lots of people do. laugh at them when you're older and can relax and sit in a decent home and they are fighting to pay off junk
5. celebs? i stopped caring what celebs did when...actually i never cared.

this post is so sad for so many reasons. people used to care and still care about things like liberty, freedom, happiness. people used to fight for their rights or fight to support their children through school.

now you morons are angst'd out about how to afford gucci and plasma tvs.

My friend, you are living in a bubble.

Advertising is now a psychological war game - less a means to exploit a product to stimulate consumption. Advertising has become a thirst for 'labels' and 'brands' though which the consumer can advocate for which is superior to the rest; not through experience, but through an internal 'instinct' that is driven by means which many neglect to even begin to understand.

This inability to understand is the informal thesis of my initial post. Why do we neglect our inability to say 'no'? Designer clothing is a prime example; much interest is not sparked through it's style, material or fit: it's inspired through an observable label and WHO is wearing that label. Why do you think fashion models are not only famous, but extremely rich?

'Keeping up with the jonases' appears to be a trend which is growing every day. You said it yourself, "[you] luagh at them [when] they are fighting to pay off junk [that they can't afford]".

It's interesting WHY people spend beyond their means when they know they cannot afford to do so; yet, they continue down the path of inevitable debt.

A question I poised was how an average university/college student's consuming mentality changes post-grad. There are so many variables at play when attending either institution that make 'saving' very difficult.

Keep in mind that there is this idea of financial security that awaits many money-driven students when they graduate. Reality shatters that 'idea' post-grad. Many current university students (and even more prospective students) believe that investing in their university education is the only type of life investment they can make that will lead to massive positive returns. 'Going somewhere in life'; 'having a future'; 'being successful'. These are all phrases which motivate current students to remain students and study for 8 months a year. ...at least, many people I have come to know - including myself - have been a victim of this idea.

...This idea is a problem because it presents a disillusion to 'spend now and live in the moment' knowing that it will not hit them THAT HARD when they graduate. How wrong many are, but nobody learns or pays attention.

Yes this Economy is though, but you know something is very wrong when minimum wage is not only at the level it is at, but stigmatized minimum wage employers are paying $10-$15 an hour. This fuels why many believe their immediate graduation will lead to a pretty good lifestyle, which in turn, leads to current spending beyond affordable means. Keep in mind, this is only relevant to 'some' students. What is going upstairs for the rest when they indulge in over-consumption?

I can't even begin to understand where you come from, or were raised, through your correlation of 'stupidity' and 'anxiety for NOT having the latest shirt/tv/etc'. This is a bigger problem than obesity. 1/3 of America is obese? I think 99% of America is in debt, yet over-consumption still plagues their mind; however you can correlate having the latest shirt/tv/etc with drug addictions.

[jackwest]

My friend, you are living in a bubble.

Advertising is now a psychological war game - less a means to exploit a product to stimulate consumption. Advertising has become a thirst for 'labels' and 'brands' though which the consumer can advocate for which is superior to the rest; not through experience, but through an internal 'instinct' that is driven by means which many neglect to even begin to understand.

This inability to understand is the informal thesis of my initial post. Why do we neglect our inability to say 'no'? Designer clothing is a prime example; much interest is not sparked through it's style, material or fit: it's inspired through an observable label and WHO is wearing that label. Why do you think fashion models are not only famous, but extremely rich?

'Keeping up with the jonases' appears to be a trend which is growing every day. You said it yourself, "[you] luagh at them [when] they are fighting to pay off junk [that they can't afford]".

It's interesting WHY people spend beyond their means when they know they cannot afford to do so; yet, they continue down the path of inevitable debt.



ok....

your little essay on materialism gets a F in a sociology 101 course. Many phrases don't even make sense. Take a break kid.

[Churo1]

ok....

your little essay on materialism gets a F in a sociology 101 course. Many phrases don't even make sense. Take a break kid.

Owned. Thank god someone finally put this guy in his place.

[citizen22]

ok....

your little essay on materialism gets a F in a sociology 101 course. Many phrases don't even make sense. Take a break kid.

I brought up a valid question and it was answered very well. This recent post was directed at materialism as you correlated it with stupidity. That's a pretty weak conclusion to make, don't you think?

[jackwest]

I brought up a valid question and it was answered very well. This recent post was directed at materialism as you correlated it with stupidity. ...You're not residing in a large city, are you?

First of all, stop trying to emulate sociology articles that you read in first year class. This is how you write your sentence in english:

I asked a question and it was answered. My last post was about materialism but you thought it was about stupidity. Are you living in a large city?


This addresses grammer and tone. Your logic on the other hand...

[Zug_Zwang]

It's not hard if you make some smart investment moves along with a frugal lifestyle.

Instead of buying an iphone or whatever people feels the "need" to have, I put all my cash into investments (real estates, stocks) during last few years and luckily it paid off. My wife and I are both under 30 and we will never need a mortgage or car loan. And even now, I never buy stuff unless it's on sale or enroll myself into money draining activities like going to the gym or play golf. We still live frugally, but we're both happy because we never need to worry about money for the rest of our lives.

Though you sound relatively happy, I know quite a few instances of people living too frugal of a life. In fact, one of my friends is so preoccupied (i.e. stressed) with minimizing his expenditures and saving towards the future that he (i.e. his heart) will not live to see the fruits of his labour.

Though I consider myself to be quite thrifty, I'm also starting to realize the need for balance in my life. Yes, in retrospect traveling, trying new foods, or going to school abroad for a few years wasn't the most practical expenditure. But it sure made me happy (and let me get the need to discover out of my system), rather than let it catch up to me when I'm older and other responsibilities prevent me from doing so.

[citizen22]

First of all, stop trying to emulate sociology articles that you read in first year class. This is how you write your sentence in english:

I asked a question and it was answered. My last post was about materialism but you thought it was about stupidity. Are you living in a large city?


This addresses grammer and tone. Your logic on the other hand...

I think it's a little difficult to recite material from a class that I did not take, but that's just me.

To refresh your memory, you called 'us' morons for having anxiety issues over not being able to buy whatever is desired. In other words, you're correlating stupidity and materialism. It may not be direct, nor clear, but you are. The problem with this correlation is that it is wrong and deviates from the entire thread.

[vavaju]

Though you sound relatively happy, I know quite a few instances of people living too frugal of a life. In fact, one of my friends is so preoccupied (i.e. stressed) with minimizing his expenditures and saving towards the future that he (i.e. his heart) will not live to see the fruits of his labour.

Though I consider myself to be quite thrifty, I'm also starting to realize the need for balance in my life. Yes, in retrospect traveling, trying new foods, or going to school abroad for a few years wasn't the most practical expenditure. But it sure made me happy (and let me get the need to discover out of my system), rather than let it catch up to me when I'm older and other responsibilities prevent me from doing so.

Yeah I know what you mean. When you get too caught up TRYING to live frugally, it defeats the purpose because in the end you're not happy. It's simply a lifestyle - you either embrace it or you don't, just like with everything else in life. It's not for everybody, and there's no set "goal".

I've done it for all these years that it's normal to me. I mean, if I walk into a store, I find it strange to buy anything at regular price, even groceries.

[jackwest]

I think it's a little difficult to recite material from a class that I did not take, but that's just me.

To refresh your memory, you called 'us' morons for having anxiety issues over not being able to buy whatever is desired. In other words, you're correlating stupidity and materialism. It may not be direct, nor clear, but you are. The problem with this correlation is that it is wrong.

stop editing your posts 3 hours later to making them more readable and logical.

[jackwest]

anyways, the main problem with your line of thinking is that your need to blame other people for all of these things.

you've described all sorts of neurosis and catalogued the way you feel bad about modern life, then immediately found a way to blame the "System" or "celebs" for them. grow up.

[citizen22]

stop editing your posts 3 hours later to making them more readable and logical.

Lol at 2 post evolution: illogical -> logical.
Thank you

[jackwest]

Lol at 2 post evolution: illogical -> logical.
Thank you

what? what does this post mean? are you going to edit this one too to make sense?

[citizen22]

anyways, the main problem with your line of thinking is that your need to blame other people for all of these things.

you've described all sorts of neurosis and catalogued the way you feel bad about modern life, then immediately found a way to blame the "System" or "celebs" for them. grow up.

Um, that's a little off, but it does have truth. First, I'm not blaming anyone for how I live. Why would I? I don't think I've really emphasized how this system has mistreated me, or abused me. In fact, the only relation that I have discussed were my spending habits post-high school. I left 'me' out of this because it's not really effecting me, as it is my ability to understand others. I raised the general idea of what many people in my situation (i.e. student) - including me - believe awaits post-grad, but it doesn't. Stating that I know it doesn't exist should allow you to be capable of assuming that I have made - or at least am attempting to make - the proper adjustments to ensure I wont be one of those post-grad students who receive the biggest wake up call of their life.

I am merely stating my observations of life. What I see and how I do are very different.

However, this doesn't mean that I'm immune financial difficulties. I'm still a student making dumb decisions. I have students loans and my savings can't cover them right now, but I dropped 1/5 of them on a trip to Mexico in August. I spend a lot differently then what my initial post emphasizes. I mean, if I can understand what techniques are used to get me in the door, do you think that I can probably avoid or entertain such techniques?

I simply think it's interesting how spend savvy many students are and the change that occurs post-grad. This why I asked the question in the first place. Not many people made what I made post-high school, and many students go directly from high school to university without the ability to accumulate 'wealth'.

The truth is found in my rant. Yes I scapegoat celebs, the media, general advertising, and whatever else tries to tell me that I can afford something - when really I can't. I mean, I don't think it's so much as 'blaming the system' as it is for acknowledging what is telling me a story that contradicts the ideal student's bank statement. Then again, you sound like someone who took every 'I' in my entire post history as representing me - solely - and not those in my situation as well.

Anyways, illogical -> logical evolution is right from your mouth. Two posts prior to 'that' post, I was illogical and possessed horrible english; however, you complimented me on that post, so I thank you. haha

[jl319]

This is driving me nuts as I've been searching for a mean salary that meets this perspective/ideal monetary intake, which can correlate with over-consumption.

Everywhere I go, there is influence on me telling me what I can afford/will be able to afford when I graduate; yet, reality tells an entirely different story: post-grad 'employed', doing whatever the hell it is they're doing, are taking in around $50, 000 a year. Tax that, and I think you're seeing around $35-38, 000 a year. How in gods name is someone on that income supposed to 'live' this affordable life? Take into consideration $12, 000-$24, 000 mortgage/rent, above the cost of food, car insurance, gas, students loans, etc.

I'm really curious to hear of how the post-grad 'financial' mentality has evolved from how it was pre-university (and during university).

My reasoning for creating this post in general? All 'designer' clothing labels, luxury vehicles, fine dinning, and other life's luxuries which seem to have this 'affordable' image that is justified by 'life's post-grad success'. I don't get it: what success? Profiteering prevents a lot of post-grad students (almost all) from actually seeing this expected income, yet consumption does not change much - even after the realization of how wrong their initial thoughts were.

Even more so, exploitation of celebs, business gurus, 'get rich quick schemes', lotto winners, etc. are at an all time high. It's as if, based on this simple interpretation of what I see, we are being indoctrined into 'living' a debt. I put emphasis on living because 'regret' does not seem to follow any over-consuming catalyst. We consume in relation to how others consume. This exploitation of the rich and famous actually makes the 'norm' consume in a similar manner: miniscule by numbers, but 'similar' through attitude.

Why? I can speak first hand in my stupidity for buying designer clothing - right out of high school - while I was working to save tuition under this pretense: Education = financial security; however, this doesn't seem to be the case any more. I see more and more students living in outrageous debt, without a care in world.

I think this is an interesting issue to analyze on a daily - social - basis. Just going outside and exposure to any of what I've said is immanent. What do you think?

Wow. OP's question hurts my head

[THINKPADT61]

Well, I am a recent post grad in the work force myself...

I live and home and drove a $5000 used car for two years until just recently, I bought a new car...

I am almost done paying off my student loan and life will be good...


To OP... 50K should be enough, if you learn to spend wisely... No beamer or lexus for me... I do plan to get a used Corvette C5 convertible ;)

[fingroll]

I've been out of school for not quite 4 years. I landed a 50k job.

I've saved up 60k in the last 4 years (15k/yr) while paying rent that has continually gone up (ugh) but I've enjoyed living in the heart of downtown Vancouver, with an astounding view of the water.

Things I've done to save money in no particular order:
- cut cable 8-9 years ago
- bought a bicycle and gear to use for commuting
- drive a rust bucket
- worked through university, graduated debt free
- entertainment books
- RFD
- shared accommodations with gf
- vacationed cheap (camping, cheap all-included cruises)

Just signed and sealed a 2br condo for 250k. This will be the first time I'll be living with debt. Either gf or myself alone can make all required payments (strata, mortgage, internet, hydro, etc) but we'd be living off non-name kraft dinner.

Please refer to me to unsaid company that doubles your salary every five years.

A 2BR condo for 250K.. ? I didn't think such a thing existed in Vancouver.

I'm surprised you rent downtown (I'm guessing false creek or coal harbour), and yet you can live such a frugal lifestyle. I find that most downtown yuppies that are renting are just keeping up with the joneses and living beyond their means.

Personally I would've rented somewhere cheaper and kept the cable. But to each their own. Nevetheless, kudos to your sensibilities.

[bruizeman]

I always found these sociology-esque rants to be the most useless things ever...

[92gsr]

I've been out of school for not quite 4 years. I landed a 50k job.

I've saved up 60k in the last 4 years (15k/yr) while paying rent that has continually gone up (ugh) but I've enjoyed living in the heart of downtown Vancouver, with an astounding view of the water.

Things I've done to save money in no particular order:
- cut cable 8-9 years ago
- bought a bicycle and gear to use for commuting
- drive a rust bucket
- worked through university, graduated debt free
- entertainment books
- RFD
- shared accommodations with gf
- vacationed cheap (camping, cheap all-included cruises)

Just signed and sealed a 2br condo for 250k. This will be the first time I'll be living with debt. Either gf or myself alone can make all required payments (strata, mortgage, internet, hydro, etc) but we'd be living off non-name kraft dinner.

Please refer to me to unsaid company that doubles your salary every five years.

Congrats on nabbing a 2-bedroom condo in Metro Vancouver for 250K. Mind you I haven't been following the market as closely as I should be, but I didn't think one could find a deal like this, even in a declining market. Hopefully, it's a nicely managed building.

[TooSoonJr]

A lot more people continue living at home, they don't have the pressure or stress of having to maintain a "savings level" or to worry about a "what if" in case they lose their cash flow.

This doesn't apply to all, but that is how most people get over their heads not realizing the value of a dollar when they get their first job.

[Churo1]

A lot more people continue living at home, they don't have the pressure or stress of having to maintain a "savings level" or to worry about a "what if" in case they lose their cash flow.

This doesn't apply to all, but that is how most people get over their heads not realizing the value of a dollar when they get their first job.

True. Although EI helps to an extent. Also it is usually easier to find another job after you have experience.

[airodus]

Low self esteem. People feel the need to impress others since they are none too impressed with themselves.

It's not really a new phenomenon. The main difference these days is access to easy money and the profiteering by those who issue it. It's ultimately each individual's responsibility to manage their own finances and make good decisions, but it isn't easy in this world when the so called "experts" are generally looking out for their own self interests. And I mean the people at the bank who over-qualify you for a mortgage or convince you to buy a high MER fund, or issue you a line of credit so you can buy a fancy car. Or the credit card companies that give you ridiculously high limits or pre-approved cards. The average joe isn't gonna argue with their financial adviser, especially if the adviser is telling them what they want. There really is nowhere to turn for good advice except your friends/family/internet forums.

We're also in a society where we feel proud about how much debt we can accumulate. Oh, the bank says I qualify for a 500k mortgage, of the credit card company gave me a 50k limit, etc... It all feels good because it feels like the "experts" think we are good for it, they have faith in our ability to repay it. In actuality that's not true, they just profit whether we succeed or not.

[jackwest]

another poster blaming everyone else and using nebulous psycho/social concepts "low self esteem". goods points but not the main problem.

[airodus]

another poster blaming everyone else and using nebulous psycho/social concepts "low self esteem". goods points but not the main problem.

What is the main problem then? I live waaaaay below my means, so I was just making an outside observation. I'm interested because there are a lot of people I care about who are in pretty bad debt.

[bruizeman]

I'm not sure why debt is a bad thing... and if it's not a bad thing then why are most of you advising people to avoid it?

[airodus]

I'm not sure why debt is a bad thing... and if it's not a bad thing then why are most of you advising people to avoid it?

Because you owe money to people. And if you don't pay they get mad and come at you with baseball bats.

[SurrealEvolution]

Because you owe money to people. And if you don't pay they get mad and come at you with baseball bats.

That's the beauty of this country, criminals are well protected, especially white collar.

Look, you could probably rack up a lot of debt and then declare personal bankruptcy. The punishment is 7 years no credit, big deal. You can mis-manage other people's money and still leave with the shirt on your back.

Anyways, back to what I think is the topic of this thread.

People spend and do what they do because you only live once. I can't say much to those that have no passion for life and wish to stay at home and count their dollars and tell me that when they retire, they are going to be well off. All I can say is that I'm going to enjoy my M3 at 30 more than my ferrari at 65.

I mean, why put off tomorrow what you can do today? I'd rather pay $3K for a 50" LCD now, then not have for 2 years while I wait for it to drop down to $1K.

Ask yourself this, would you rather die owing a million or having a million in the bank? (obviously this is assuming the debt wouldn't be passed onto someone else). These are some extreme cases to make my point but still valid.

In conclusion, everyone should leverage their financial position comfortably but don't short-change yourself on life.

[airodus]

That's the beauty of this country, criminals are well protected, especially white collar.

Look, you could probably rack up a lot of debt and then declare personal bankruptcy. The punishment is 7 years no credit, big deal. You can mis-manage other people's money and still leave with the shirt on your back.

Anyways, back to what I think is the topic of this thread.

People spend and do what they do because you only live once. I can't say much to those that have no passion for life and wish to stay at home and count their dollars and tell me that when they retire, they are going to be well off. All I can say is that I'm going to enjoy my M3 at 30 more than my ferrari at 65.

I mean, why put off tomorrow what you can do today? I'd rather pay $3K for a 50" LCD now, then not have for 2 years while I wait for it to drop down to $1K.

Ask yourself this, would you rather die owing a million or having a million in the bank? (obviously this is assuming the debt wouldn't be passed onto someone else). These are some extreme cases to make my point but still valid.

In conclusion, everyone should leverage their financial position comfortably but don't short-change yourself on life.

Very extreme. Yes people do need to enjoy their lives, but unless they plan on suiciding the next day, they should look out for their futures as well. Cause a few "good" years when they are young might make the rest of their life miserable.

[SurrealEvolution]

Cause a few "good" years when they are young might make the rest of their life miserable.

Ha! Don't I know it, still paying today for decisions I made a long time ago! (But I had a good time doing it!) :lol: