Info wanted: New Grad Salary Statistics

[frozenmelon]

I've been looking like crazy, but can't seem to find some precise data on new grad salaries.

Before you call me a n00b, I am looking for Canadian new grad (college and/or universities) salaries in this form:

0 to $x - (number or %)
$x+1 to $y - (number or %)

NOT JUST THE AVERAGE. (maybe average with standard deviation or percentiles or something) I know you'd all be curious to know as well.

[jackboot]

Stats Canada - Post-Secondary grads (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-582-x/2009001/tbl/e2.8-eng.htm)

Stats Canada - College grads by field of study (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-582-x/2009001/tbl/e2.10-eng.htm)

Stats Canada - University grads by field of study (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-582-x/2009001/tbl/e2.11-eng.htm)

The above stats also include graduate degrees though. But you can find much more specific info on statscan's website if you want.

[lalalalala]

Oh my. The health, parks and recreation grads earn more than business grads... but pay a lot less in tuition fee. Hm...

[samm]

Oh my. The health, parks and recreation grads earn more than business grads... but pay a lot less in tuition fee. Hm...

I don't agree with what you're saying. Looking at the gender averages of the Health, parks and rec, that is the only category that females achieve a higher pay than males. I'm assuming this is because Health refers to the health sector like nursing. So after 2 years post grad, of course nurses make more than business. And no, they do not pay less tuition fee than a business grad. Also a business student may also take co-op, while a nurse has to pay for their own clinical practicum. There are a lot of extra fees, like immunization, mask fitting, cpr, etc.

[CrimsonGuardian]

So the "2 years after graduation"... Does this refer to 2 years on the job approximately or starting base salary right when you get the job?

Seems a little high... I'm not seeing business grads making that much starting salary these days, including myself when I did have an entry level position...

Then again, I had the job only 2 months after graduation...

[cnbc]

University of Waterloo's co-op salary survey.
http://www.cecs.uwaterloo.ca/students/salary.php

Take the the figure from the latest work term and add 25%. This gives you a good estimate of new grad salary.

[Prinsesa]

I'm a recent College grad and I'm getting approx $50K-$55K a year -_-

[Quiggie]

I'm a comp-sci grad with 2 years of exp and I'm only making 40k. According to that chart 50k would be average for me. This angers me!

[the_fm]

how the hell do you guys get paid so much?
over here, 40k is like the norm for a new grad :|

[CrimsonGuardian]

Remember, that's back in 2005 and its not accurate based on the slumping economy in the modern day. Doesn't take into account the large amount of layoffs and the fact that getting jobs for recent grads is extremely hard to get in this economy..

And if they do end up getting a job, then it's around $35-40k starting salary for new grads (including business grads).. I think after 2 years actually WORKING in the position then you can maybe make $45k but nothing more than that in this troublesome economy.

I made about $35k in the job I had 2 months after graduation but didn't get an opportunity to work 2 years into the job since my office was shutdown due to the economy... So I maybe could've gotten $40k or $42k by the time it was 2 years.

[citizen22]

How are these statistics accurate? Before I even went into university, I weighted the costs of going into the trades and getting an university education. I then spent two years deliberating as to what path would lead to the greatest monetary influx. I spent countless hours consulting with many individuals in the area of 'business' I planned to go into and there was significant correlation to a salary of over $55, 000+ to start: after a few years exp, that jumps to 65-100+.

How the hell does 50 become the norm, and 70 is an extreme deviation of 'unknown' paths? Occ info even evaluates many post-grad positions in the $60-$80, 000 'average' range. What happened?

How does going into the trades - WITHOUT OVER TIME - accumulate more wealth than an university grad after a few years in their designated field? Something is either very wrong with those statistics, or I've been lied to all of my life by educators, the government, the media, university councilors, working individuals, online guides, RCA employees, etc.

[f00kie]

How are these statistics accurate? Before I even went into university, I weighted the costs of going into the trades and getting a university education. I then spent two years deliberating as to what path would lead to the greatest monetary influx. I spent countless hours consulting with many individuals in the area of 'business' I planned to go into and there was significant correlation to a salary of over $55, 000+ to start: after a few years exp, that jumps to 65-100+.

How the hell does 50 become the norm, and 70 is an extreme deviation of 'unknown' paths? Occ info even evaluates many post-grad positions in the $60-$80, 000 'average' range. What happened?

How does going into the trades - WITHOUT OVER TIME - accumulate more wealth than a university grad after a few years in their designated field? Something is either very wrong with those statistics, or I've been lied to all of my life by educators, the government, the media, university councilors, working individuals, online guides, etc.

Those stats are always average, median, mean, or whatever else you want to call them. I hope you are not an average person. Become above average (marks, social skills, recruiting luck, etc) and you will get the pay you speak of.

[citizen22]

Those stats are always average, median, mean, or whatever else you want to call them. I hope you are not an average person. Become above average (marks, social skills, recruiting luck, etc) and you will get the pay you speak of.

Shall I quit now? I mean really. Based on a lot of the posts created on this site, recruiting luck seems to have greater weight than personality, GPA and area of study combined. My recruiting luck is ****, period. I've been on the prowl for job-related experience all summer and I've yet to receive a single call back; in fact, my cell phone bill was an additional $200 over the past two months from day-time usage in hounding specific employers who continued to post their 'required positions' online, days and weeks after persistent submissions of resumes and cover letters.

This is ridiculous. I am not as shocked at those figures than I am with the confirmation on how relevant those figures are!

I say it, my friends say it and I hear it all around campus, 'I can't wait until I'm finally done school'. I'd like to entertain how much of a rude awakening reality will have on everyone whom has said this when they are actually out of school. It's turning into not what you have post-grad, but what you did during your studies that correlates to decent pay - even years after graduation as well.

[Lancing]

My limited experience with landing jobs comes down to three factors:

1. Having a good social network that can help identify good jobs and possibly even help you get in.

2. Knowing the choice jobs even exist and knowing where to apply or watch for them.
3. Being interested and available for hire at just the right time when a chance opens up.

And oddly enough I've always found it easier to get hired some where when your already employed.

[pitz]

A lot of the discrepancy in the data arises because not all college graduates are able to find jobs. So if 2/3rds of the class is employed at $60k/year (what is typical of a new-grad engineer), and 1/3rd of the class is unemployed -- the 'average' shows up as $40k/year.

That's why we have here, on a fairly regular basis, some engineers coming here saying the market is rosy, salaries are great, etc. And then we have some engineers who say they can't even get anyone to return their phone calls or acknowledge their job applications. Its a really bifurcated market.

Salaries for university grads have decreased, in inflation-adjusted terms, over the past decade, which means, that unemployment must have risen. Disproportionately, this unemployment fell unto the less experienced and, in some cases, the most experienced.

I know that, for my engineering graduating class -- an interesting dichotomy emerged. The hardest working, smartest -- often those with internships with 'tech' employers, had the most difficulty entering the labour markets (some are still unemployed, years later!). The least working, least smart -- often without internships, had the least difficulty entering the labour markets.

Why? 2 reasons; a) the least smart in the class did not set their expectations very high. They were willing to work at the cr*p jobs, for far below average pay. These jobs happened to be the ones in abundance. b) employers believed they would 'stick around', and not leave for the high tech job market the minute it was revived.

For instance, a guy I know, graduated 2002, ex-Nortel intern, honours EE and Computer Science. Nortel stopped hiring people in 2001 (and rescinded offers to many new hires). Every time he went for an interview with, say, an electric utility, they were impressed with his skills, but rejected him, saying, "you will just go back to Nortel once they sort out the problems." Lots of guys have had their lives destroyed for simply having the misfortune of having good grades and internship experience in the tech industry, because non-tech employers just don't want a 'retention' problem on their hands.

[CrimsonGuardian]

A lot of the discrepancy in the data arises because not all college graduates are able to find jobs. So if 2/3rds of the class is employed at $60k/year (what is typical of a new-grad engineer), and 1/3rd of the class is unemployed -- the 'average' shows up as $40k/year.

That's why we have here, on a fairly regular basis, some engineers coming here saying the market is rosy, salaries are great, etc. And then we have some engineers who say they can't even get anyone to return their phone calls or acknowledge their job applications. Its a really bifurcated market.

Salaries for university grads have decreased, in inflation-adjusted terms, over the past decade, which means, that unemployment must have risen. Disproportionately, this unemployment fell unto the less experienced and, in some cases, the most experienced.

I know that, for my engineering graduating class -- an interesting dichotomy emerged. The hardest working, smartest -- often those with internships with 'tech' employers, had the most difficulty entering the labour markets (some are still employed, years later!). The least working, least smart -- often without internships, had the least difficulty entering the labour markets.

Why? 2 reasons; a) the least smart in the class did not set their expectations very high. They were willing to work at the cr*p jobs, for far below average pay. These jobs happened to be the ones in abundance. b) employers believed they would 'stick around', and not leave for the high tech job market the minute it was revived.

For instance, a guy I know, graduated 2002, ex-Nortel intern, honours EE and Computer Science. Nortel stopped hiring people in 2001 (and rescinded offers to many new hires). Every time he went for an interview with, say, an electric utility, they were impressed with his skills, but rejected him, saying, "you will just go back to Nortel once they sort out the problems." Lots of guys have had their lives destroyed for simply having the misfortune of having good grades and internship experience in the tech industry, because non-tech employers just don't want a 'retention' problem on their hands.

Which line of engineering? My dad has worked at AECL for nearly 30 years as an Electrical Engineer and says that starting salaries for new grads is $42 to $45k a year. Wasn't much difference between 10 years ago and now, when he interacts with these new grads. It is completely unheard of for a new grad to make over $50k a year even in Engineering. My dad said that there was never once a case for this for the long time that he has worked there.

[Phlegmbot]

My dad has worked at AECL for nearly 30 years as an Electrical Engineer and says that starting salaries for new grads is $42 to $45k a year. Wasn't much difference between 10 years ago and now, when he interacts with these new grads. It is completely unheard of for a new grad to make over $50k a year even in Engineering.

My anecdote disproves yours!

AECL offered me $58.5k starting about 18 months ago for an electrical engineering grad position.

The company I actually went with offered me $66k for an engineering grad position. Nine months later and I'm making $72k.

[CrimsonGuardian]

My anecdote disproves yours!

AECL offered me $58.5k starting about 18 months ago for an electrical engineering grad position.

The company I actually went with offered me $66k for an engineering grad position. Nine months later and I'm making $72k.

Hmm seriously? I'll have to get that cleared up then... Again, I'm just going by what grads have told my dad about where they started in terms of salary. He found that they said about $45k/year starting base. Then after 2 years, you can obviously get good raises.

How were your marks, etc?

[petergriffin]

How are these statistics accurate? Before I even went into university, I weighted the costs of going into the trades and getting an university education. I then spent two years deliberating as to what path would lead to the greatest monetary influx. I spent countless hours consulting with many individuals in the area of 'business' I planned to go into and there was significant correlation to a salary of over $55, 000+ to start: after a few years exp, that jumps to 65-100+.

How the hell does 50 become the norm, and 70 is an extreme deviation of 'unknown' paths? Occ info even evaluates many post-grad positions in the $60-$80, 000 'average' range. What happened?

How does going into the trades - WITHOUT OVER TIME - accumulate more wealth than an university grad after a few years in their designated field? Something is either very wrong with those statistics, or I've been lied to all of my life by educators, the government, the media, university councilors, working individuals, online guides, RCA employees, etc.


Just use simple logic, if the "norm" is like that then you would be seeing a lot more of them driving fancy cars.

[petergriffin]

A lot of the discrepancy in the data arises because not all college graduates are able to find jobs. So if 2/3rds of the class is employed at $60k/year (what is typical of a new-grad engineer), and 1/3rd of the class is unemployed -- the 'average' shows up as $40k/year.




Just so you know non of these stats work this way.

[frozenmelon]

Just so you know non of these stats work this way.

True. It is not a relevant point anyway since employment rates are (boasted to be) in the high 80%'s and low 90%'s. Well I suppose there's the possibility of bias and that those who are employed may be underemployed.

[Churo1]

Which line of engineering? My dad has worked at AECL for nearly 30 years as an Electrical Engineer and says that starting salaries for new grads is $42 to $45k a year. Wasn't much difference between 10 years ago and now, when he interacts with these new grads. It is completely unheard of for a new grad to make over $50k a year even in Engineering. My dad said that there was never once a case for this for the long time that he has worked there.

Same here, surprised that Pitz is saying an average starting salary for engineering grads is 60K. I mean seriously wtf?

[pitz]

Same here, surprised that Pitz is saying an average starting salary for engineering grads is 60K. I mean seriously wtf?

And equally, I think that 42-45k is astonishingly low, although there might be some regional variation. I think Manitoba, New Brunswick, and Newfoundland may very well have significantly lower salaries overall, because of the cost of living.

[cnbc]

Same here, surprised that Pitz is saying an average starting salary for engineering grads is 60K. I mean seriously wtf?

pitz never said average starting salary for engineering grads is 60K. He was using the figure in an example.

I know many 2009 software engineer graduates got offers over 60k working in multinationals in major cities, so I would not be surprised that 60k is the average for SE grads this year. I can't say the same for other engineers though. I guess the numbers are a little lower, probably a notch above 50k. These are Waterloo figures by the way.

[Mayoo]

Started as a New grad in 2007 ( Compsci ) 57K .. and now making ~ 67K ..

[CrimsonGuardian]

And equally, I think that 42-45k is astonishingly low, although there might be some regional variation. I think Manitoba, New Brunswick, and Newfoundland may very well have significantly lower salaries overall, because of the cost of living.

For a new graduate RIGHT out of University, even 50k is amazing considering the person in question has extremely little to no experience, whereas the company can simply hire a person with several years of experience for 50k or more.

What I find is that new grads make 35-45k starting base on their first (maybe second) real job out of university. This includes engineers that start at AECL as Electrical Engineers. Especially in my field of business, most people start at around 35k to 40k.

Now I'm really not sure about Software Engineers however. They could be on a considerably different payscale than the rest of us but according to you, the fact that the starting base salary for software engineers is at least 20k more than the starting base for all other disciplines is quite inconceivable and ridiculous. Its such a huge margin compared to most other professions, including other engineering jobs.

[skeletor]

Started as a New grad in 2007 ( Compsci ) 57K .. and now making ~ 67K ..

wtf.. how are you people getting 10k+ raises in under 2 years?!

in 2 years I haven't even moved 2K off my base! unless you guys are just getting a lot of overtime/standby pay on the side which I'm not counting in.

the senior people 10 years exp I work with cap out at $70k...

[drey2k]

Yea seriously where the **** are these people coming from? ~70k with 2 years experiece.. HUH?

Most of my friends from university are still unemployed or working crappy jobs. I don't think anyone makes over 50k yet.

This is bs lol.

[bruizeman]

wtf.. how are you people getting 10k+ raises in under 2 years?!

in 2 years I haven't even moved 2K off my base! unless you guys are just getting a lot of overtime/standby pay on the side which I'm not counting in.

the senior people 10 years exp I work with cap out at $70k...

Well... from my initial salary in 2007 to now, it increased around 42%.

I got a 10% raise after year 1, and jumped to a different company 6 months after that.

[vavaju]

wtf.. how are you people getting 10k+ raises in under 2 years?!

in 2 years I haven't even moved 2K off my base! unless you guys are just getting a lot of overtime/standby pay on the side which I'm not counting in.

the senior people 10 years exp I work with cap out at $70k...

The key is to move from company to company.

I'm not saying jump ship every few months, cuz that's telling employers you can't keep a job... so do it within reason.

[porsche22]

I really wish I can land one of these 60k plus eng jobs.

I'm in Toronto and I’m getting nowhere near that.

Sites like these show that a new grad Mech Eng makes an avg of 49k.


http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-salary-wizard.html?narrowdesc=Engineering&narrowcode=EN01


How accurate is this site? But 60k for an entry level eng job does seem a little high for Toronto at least.

[vavaju]

I really wish I can land one of these 60k plus eng jobs.

I'm in Toronto and I’m getting nowhere near that.

Sites like these show that a new grad Mech Eng makes an avg of 49k.


http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-salary-wizard.html?narrowdesc=Engineering&narrowcode=EN01


How accurate is this site? But 60k for an entry level eng job does seem a little high for Toronto at least.

Don't worry about it. The money will come with experience.

[Mayoo]

wtf.. how are you people getting 10k+ raises in under 2 years?!

in 2 years I haven't even moved 2K off my base! unless you guys are just getting a lot of overtime/standby pay on the side which I'm not counting in.

the senior people 10 years exp I work with cap out at $70k...

Sorry .. i moved to different company .. trust me thats the way you can get ur salary up .. unless ur an executive ..

[porsche22]

Don't worry about it. The money will come with experience.

I surely hope so. it's somewhat unmotivating to work for so little, but understandable considering the market right now.

Plus those students loans are unforgiving.

[Mayoo]

Also don't expect a big difference .. tax plays a big role ( well we gotta live with it .. )

With this LINK (http://www.walterharder.ca/Take%20Home%20Pay%20Calculator.html)

Income example $57K
Take Home pay $42K


Income example $65K
Take home pay $47K

[pitz]

How accurate is this site? But 60k for an entry level eng job does seem a little high for Toronto at least.

Well, just as an observation, IMHO, one who reads, writes, and speaks good English, completed their final design project (and didn't fake the results like some did), had relevant summer jobs or an internship, and didn't cheat their way through school is, by definition and by default, in the upper quartile of engineering grads.

Tech sector downsizing, however, has been brutal. EE/ECE/CompE/CS people have taken it especially hard. Hopefully this trend finally is ******** since Nortel has finally been led to its demise.

Lots of engineering grads step right out of school, and into what are typically "B" or "C"-level engineering jobs (as described in the PEO or APEGGA salary surveys), so strictly using "A" -level criteria for determining an entry level salary isn't really appropriate.

[petergriffin]

pitz never said average starting salary for engineering grads is 60K. He was using the figure in an example.

I know many 2009 software engineer graduates got offers over 60k working in multinationals in major cities, so I would not be surprised that 60k is the average for SE grads this year. I can't say the same for other engineers though. I guess the numbers are a little lower, probably a notch above 50k. These are Waterloo figures by the way.


I remember he once said something like "new engi grads should make at least 60k" before.

[petergriffin]

wtf.. how are you people getting 10k+ raises in under 2 years?!

in 2 years I haven't even moved 2K off my base! unless you guys are just getting a lot of overtime/standby pay on the side which I'm not counting in.

the senior people 10 years exp I work with cap out at $70k...


;) that depends on your luck. It's true that most people don't encounter these offers but there're still some fortunate ones who do.

[Churo1]

"Over 99% of new engineering graduates can negotiate up to $50,000-$60,000 more per year than graduates in any other program."
-Pitz

"Grades have a direct correlation and are the determining factor of which job you get and how much you get paid for doing said job. An engineering grad with 95% overall will make $80K to start, an engineering grad with 65% will only make $60K...."
-Pitz

"The IT bubble will never burst. The field will be as alive and virbrant in 2010 as it is now in 1998."
-Pitz

[Churo1]

You know Pitz, I used to be a fan, I thought your posts were pretty much all on the money and I think I could sympathize with you as a fellow engineer. But some of the stuff you've been posting lately makes me think you're either going crazy in your old age or you're trying to play devil's advocate or something. Either way some of your posts are way too unrealistic and optimistic.

[pitz]

Churo1, other posters have, more or less, verified the number ($60k) I threw out. I'm surprised you'd stoop to such unprofessionalism in your post where you purport to quote me.

[CrimsonGuardian]

"Over 99% of new engineering graduates can negotiate up to $50,000-$60,000 more per year than graduates in any other program."
-Pitz

"Grades have a direct correlation and are the determining factor of which job you get and how much you get paid for doing said job. An engineering grad with 95% overall will make $80K to start, an engineering grad with 65% will only make $60K...."
-Pitz

"The IT bubble will never burst. The field will be as alive and virbrant in 2010 as it is now in 1998."
-Pitz

I don't know where to begin... But if he really said those, he's living in his own fantasy world TBH.

My buddy got A's right through University at Waterloo as a Software Engineer... Doesn't make even close to 80k... He's making somewhere around 50k starting.

And I know some recent engineering grads who are all making 45k/year starting... These guys are Electrical Engineers mostly, not including the graduates that my dad spoke to at AECL who also make about 45k starting base salary.

[mc9180]

I don't know where to begin... But if he really said those, he's living in his own fantasy world TBH.

My buddy got A's right through University at Waterloo as a Software Engineer... Doesn't make even close to 80k... He's making somewhere around 50k starting.

And I know some recent engineering grads who are all making 45k/year starting... These guys are Electrical Engineers mostly, not including the graduates that my dad spoke to at AECL who also make about 45k starting base salary.

What new grads at AECL are starting at 45k?? If that's true, then they've gone backwards in their salary policy.

[CrimsonGuardian]

Possibly due to the economic recession..

[Mayoo]

"Grades have a direct correlation and are the determining factor of which job you get and how much you get paid for doing said job. An engineering grad with 95% overall will make $80K to start, an engineering grad with 65% will only make $60K...."
-Pitz



Wrong .. its the experience & type of degree which matters most of the time .. i am talking about non-research related jobs ( Job titles with Researcher, Scientist are exception)

[pitz]

All right guys, in case you didn't get the hint I left earlier...Churo1 made those quotes up, and attributed them to me. Nevermind it being libel, but I don't know what he was trying to accomplish there.

:(

[o0aZuMi0o]

wtf.. how are you people getting 10k+ raises in under 2 years?!

in 2 years I haven't even moved 2K off my base! unless you guys are just getting a lot of overtime/standby pay on the side which I'm not counting in.

the senior people 10 years exp I work with cap out at $70k...

I'm not surprised. It can work out if you try it.

I graduated in 2007 with a mere salary of 34k - after 1.8yrs of experience I'm now at 50-55k range.

[92gsr]

I have friends who work for AMEC who are either in HR, or in Engineering themselves. A new hire (with possibly some co-op experience) at AMEC makes in the low-50s to start.

[jackboot]

Churo1, other posters have, more or less, verified the number ($60k) I threw out. I'm surprised you'd stoop to such unprofessionalism in your post where you purport to quote me.

Yeah, what's the deal with those mis-quotes? :confused: Lame...

$55k is listed as the median salary for a recent engineering grad (which are almost all dudes, so let's forget about the females making $5k less for the purpose of this discussion).

Now, throw out the zero values (for those that are unemployed) that are bringing the median value down.

The result is a measure of central tendancy for engineering grads that is necessarily higher than $55k and can very reasonably be assumed to be $60k or even slightly higher.

Pitz is right - a reasonable median figure for recent engineering grads is $60k and is backed up by stats canada's figures alone. This will obviously vary depending on a lot of factors including sex (as mentioned previously), grades, work experience during university, contacts, and beleive it or not, personality.

[rems]

Yeah, what's the deal with those mis-quotes? :confused: Lame...

$55k is listed as the median salary for a recent engineering grad (which are almost all dudes, so let's forget about the females making $5k less for the purpose of this discussion).

Now, throw out the zero values (for those that are unemployed) that are bringing the median value down.

The result is a measure of central tendancy for engineering grads that is necessarily higher than $55k and can very reasonably be assumed to be $60k or even slightly higher.

Pitz is right - a reasonable median figure for recent engineering grads is $60k and is backed up by stats canada's figures alone. This will obviously vary depending on a lot of factors including sex (as mentioned previously), grades, work experience during university, contacts, and beleive it or not, personality.

Is that how they collect and summarize those stats? Are you sure they include ones with no income?

[Ceryx]

People still think fresh engieering grad makes 55k out of school?

In Canada, most of the entry jobs for engineering is around 40k to 50k range. You may be lucky if you can get 55k with some generous company (RIM for example).

The bottom line is most fresh grad has no experience and know nothing about their first job. They may have a quick salary jump after couple of years experience but very unlikely they can break more than 55k for their first job in this kind of economy.

Most engineering grad is lucky to even have a 40k job nowadays.

I admit, it doens't hurt to have a dream.

[CrimsonGuardian]

People still think fresh engieering grad makes 55k out of school?

In Canada, most of the entry jobs for engineering is around 40k to 50k range. You may be lucky if you can get 55k with some generous company (RIM for example).

The bottom line is most fresh grad has no experience and know nothing about their first job. They may have a quick salary jump after couple of years experience but very unlikely they can break more than 55k for their first job in this kind of economy.

Most engineering grad is lucky to even have a 40k job nowadays.

I admit, it doens't hurt to have a dream.

This is exactly what I've been saying earlier in this thread as well. 40-45k is the norm for fresh engineering grads based on friends that I have spoken to and from what fresh grads make in AECL for starting base.

The recession may have a thing to do with it obviously, and after 2 years, then maybe they can see the 60k figure mark depending on how well their performance is. But I'm talking about strictly fresh grads with no experience (excluding a few months of internship within school).

Business grads generally make 35-40k STARTING AS FRESH GRADS right out of school.

[andrew2good4u]

Just out of curiosity, when are analysts predicting the recession to end?

[Churo1]

Don't worry crimson and like-minded people, anyone who is a fresh grad or was in the recent past knows the reality, it is better to ignore 1st year waterloo engineering students posing as graduates/practicing engineers who are over-excited about their "prestigious" careers and can't accept the truth.

[Quiggie]

People still think fresh engieering grad makes 55k out of school?

In Canada, most of the entry jobs for engineering is around 40k to 50k range. You may be lucky if you can get 55k with some generous company (RIM for example).

Not sure about engineering, but I know for a fact that salaries for programmers at RIM are barely average. Though the benefits and perks are good.

[Churo1]

Not sure about engineering, but I know for a fact that salaries for programmers at RIM are barely average. Though the benefits and perks are good.

This is also true. RIM is basically a sweatshop for programmers, look at the hordes of co-op students they recruit every year that they take advantage of.

[jjfz3000]

Just out of curiosity, when are analysts predicting the recession to end?

The World Bank thinks that growth will revive sometime in 2010.

http://www.risknews.net/public/showPage.html?page=862321

EDIT:

This is also true. RIM is basically a sweatshop for programmers, look at the hordes of co-op students they recruit every year that they take advantage of.

The amount of learning and experience is priceless. I'd PAY RBC to hire me as an intern for their investment banking division.

[Churo1]

The World Bank thinks that growth will revive sometime in 2010.

http://www.risknews.net/public/showPage.html?page=862321

EDIT:



The amount of learning and experience is priceless. I'd PAY RBC to hire me as an intern for their investment banking division.

Yeah I came across some pretty desperate people when I was in school...like they were going to be executed in their home country for stealing a chocolate bar, so they fled to Canada even though they can't speak a word of English. Pretty modest people, just happy to still be alive.

On another note, no one in my division has ever done a co-op or internship.

[jackboot]

Is that how they collect and summarize those stats? Are you sure they include ones with no income?

Yes. You can read the data sources and methodology for this survey here. (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/cgi-bin/imdb/p2SV.pl?Function=getSurvey&SDDS=5012&lang=en&db=imdb&adm=8&dis=2) It makes no mention of listwise deletion of cases with zero values for income. Anyway,

People still think fresh engieering grad makes 55k out of school?

In Canada, most of the entry jobs for engineering is around 40k to 50k range. You may be lucky if you can get 55k with some generous company (RIM for example).

The bottom line is most fresh grad has no experience and know nothing about their first job. They may have a quick salary jump after couple of years experience but very unlikely they can break more than 55k for their first job in this kind of economy.

Most engineering grad is lucky to even have a 40k job nowadays.

I admit, it doens't hurt to have a dream.

This is exactly what I've been saying earlier in this thread as well. 40-45k is the norm for fresh engineering grads based on friends that I have spoken to and from what fresh grads make in AECL for starting base.

The recession may have a thing to do with it obviously, and after 2 years, then maybe they can see the 60k figure mark depending on how well their performance is. But I'm talking about strictly fresh grads with no experience (excluding a few months of internship within school).

Business grads generally make 35-40k STARTING AS FRESH GRADS right out of school.

OK, you guys may be correct if you want to be anal and limit the analysis to first-year engineers only. But I think it is more likely that you are wrong. According to your analysis, first-year engineers are making $35-40K to start out. If this is true, then they are getting, on average, a raise of approximately $20-25K after their first year to bring them up to an average salary of $60k after 2 years (based on the stats Canada figures, which are a bit more precise than data gathered by talking to friends).

Regardless, what is the use in trying to find out what first year salaries are if they are totally unrepresentative of what an engineer can expect to be making after a mere 2 years in the profession?

Oh and another thing - anyone that bothered to read the links that I posted would know that the current economic situation has no bearing whatsoever on the data gathered in the statscan survey. The data collection period for this survey was between 2007-05-08 and 2007-09-15.

[CrimsonGuardian]

Yes. You can read the data sources and methodology for this survey here. (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/cgi-bin/imdb/p2SV.pl?Function=getSurvey&SDDS=5012&lang=en&db=imdb&adm=8&dis=2) It makes no mention of listwise deletion of cases with zero values for income. Anyway,





OK, you guys may be correct if you want to be anal and limit the analysis to first-year engineers only. But I think it is more likely that you are wrong. According to your analysis, first-year engineers are making $35-40K to start out. If this is true, then they are getting, on average, a raise of approximately $20-25K after their first year to bring them up to an average salary of $60k after 2 years (based on the stats Canada figures, which are a bit more precise than data gathered by talking to friends).

Regardless, what is the use in trying to find out what first year salaries are if they are totally unrepresentative of what an engineer can expect to be making after a mere 2 years in the profession?

Oh and another thing - anyone that bothered to read the links that I posted would know that the current economic situation has no bearing whatsoever on the data gathered in the statscan survey. The data collection period for this survey was between 2007-05-08 and 2007-09-15.

Read my post carefully. I said that they average 40 to 45k for FRESH GRADS as a starting base, not after 2 years. And I said that 35-40k are for fresh grads in the BUSINESS field.

And I also said that the economic crisis may have something to do with the lower salaries nowadays.

[jackboot]

Read my post carefully. I said that they average 40 to 45k for FRESH GRADS as a starting base, not after 2 years. And I said that 35-40k are for fresh grads in the BUSINESS field.

And I also said that the economic crisis may have something to do with the lower salaries nowadays.

Sorry, I misread your post. But the $5k error that I made does not change my point.

My reference to the depression was not directed at you, but to readers and posters in this thread in general since the current economy has been brought up several times now. Although it is a fair assumption that starting salaries may be lower now compared to a year ago, without some solid data to back this assertion up, it is just speculation. The only solid data that has been presented in this thread so far is the statscan surveys. Everyone should feel free to add to this.

[mastercool]

i think everyone just has to accept the fact that most engineering students are disillusioned individuals who think that as soon as they graduate, they'll automatically commend a six figure salary with no experience.

That definitely never was the case, and believe me, there is LOTS of engineering students who think like this.

[rage2021]

This is also true. RIM is basically a sweatshop for programmers, look at the hordes of co-op students they recruit every year that they take advantage of.

I have a few friends who work at RIM. They did their coops there and came back full time with 60-65k to start + perks I believe. Not that bad at all if you ask me.

[citizen22]

i think everyone just has to accept the fact that most engineering students are disillusioned individuals who think that as soon as they graduate, they'll automatically commend a six figure salary with no experience.

That definitely never was the case, and believe me, there is LOTS of engineering students who think like this.

Can you blame them, among students in all other fields?

"Salary section revised JANUARY 2008
According to the 2007 Alberta Wage and Salary Survey, Albertans working part-time or full-time in the Chemical Engineers occupational group earned up to $191,400 a year. The average salary was $100,700 a year."

"According to the 2007 Alberta Wage and Salary Survey, Albertans in the Petroleum Engineers occupational group working part-time or full-time earned from $47,800 to $200,600 a year. The average salary was $94,100 a year"

"According to the 2007 Alberta Wage and Salary Survey, Albertans in the Accountants occupational group working part-time or full-time earned from $17,700 to $131,800 a year. The average salary was $49,800 a year. Accountants who have professional designations generally earn significantly more."

In my area of study. This is why so many current students strive for a CA or CMA designation. They believe that AP/AR/data entry positions are what skew those results down because they are considered 'accountants' in that they are doing accountant-*****-work. ...how wrong so many assumptions are, based on a ******** statistic CREATED BY THE GOVERNMENT...

"According to the 2007 Alberta Wage and Salary Survey, Albertans in the Business Development Officers and Marketing Researchers and Consultants occupational group working part-time or full-time earned from $44,100 to $131,400 a year. Salaries for market research analysts tend to be toward the lower end of this range"

I'll stop.

The problem with this statistic is that it is readily accessible to almost any student who considers basic research 'enough' to create a generalization. Alis is a student loan provider. Why else do you think the mentality of a 'pay-off' for an education exists? Unless you read the posts on this site, or do further research (consulting), you will be in the disillusion as well - until graduation.
Work experience outweighs education by two-three years of post-grad study.

[andrew2good4u]

Man I love these types of threads.
Very interesting for a future grad in the industry

[CrimsonGuardian]

Can you blame them, among students in all other fields?

"Salary section revised JANUARY 2008
According to the 2007 Alberta Wage and Salary Survey, Albertans working part-time or full-time in the Chemical Engineers occupational group earned up to $191,400 a year. The average salary was $100,700 a year."

"According to the 2007 Alberta Wage and Salary Survey, Albertans in the Petroleum Engineers occupational group working part-time or full-time earned from $47,800 to $200,600 a year. The average salary was $94,100 a year"

"According to the 2007 Alberta Wage and Salary Survey, Albertans in the Accountants occupational group working part-time or full-time earned from $17,700 to $131,800 a year. The average salary was $49,800 a year. Accountants who have professional designations generally earn significantly more."

In my area of study. This is why so many current students strive for a CA or CMA designation. They believe that AP/AR/data entry positions are what skew those results down because they are considered 'accountants' in that they are doing accountant-*****-work. ...how wrong so many assumptions are, based on a ******** statistic CREATED BY THE GOVERNMENT...

"According to the 2007 Alberta Wage and Salary Survey, Albertans in the Business Development Officers and Marketing Researchers and Consultants occupational group working part-time or full-time earned from $44,100 to $131,400 a year. Salaries for market research analysts tend to be toward the lower end of this range"

I'll stop.

The problem with this statistic is that it is readily accessible to almost any student who considers basic research 'enough' to create a generalization. Alis is a student loan provider. Why else do you think the mentality of a 'pay-off' for an education exists? Unless you read the posts on this site, or do further research (consulting), you will be in the disillusion as well - until graduation.
Work experience outweighs education by two-three years of post-grad study.

I agree with this post but not all recent grads are delusional. I am a recent grad (graduated about a year ago and am only 23 years old) from the Business Management Program but I know what the facts and the actual starting salaries are like out there. I had a job 2 months after graduation in the field of Marketing/Sales as an Account Executive and as a starting salary, it was $35k/year but with some great benefits. I'm sure that within 2 years, I would get several pay raises to maybe be earning around $42-45k/year with the same benefits. Unfortunately, my office was shutdown after only working there 6 months...

But yeah, that starting salary is typical for all graduates who just got their B.Comm's and are fresh grads, as was the case with me.

[Churo1]

i think everyone just has to accept the fact that most engineering students are disillusioned individuals who think that as soon as they graduate, they'll automatically commend a six figure salary with no experience.

That definitely never was the case, and believe me, there is LOTS of engineering students who think like this.

This is the truth. Engineering students are usually oblivious to the real world. I would bet most people claiming to make $60K+ a year upon graduation, especially because they had some sweat shop internship at RIM, are actually current students (most likely waterloo, they are the worst offenders for this kind of activity) ignorant of how the world works. Hopefully they will wake up one day. Hopefully.

[Phlegmbot]

i think everyone just has to accept the fact that most engineering students are disillusioned individuals who think that as soon as they graduate, they'll automatically commend a six figure salary with no experience.

That definitely never was the case, and believe me, there is LOTS of engineering students who think like this.

This doesn't make any sense. If someone is disillusioned, they would be pessimistic about their future; they would not expect to start at a six figure salary at all.

Perhaps you're referring to ignorant or plain old stupid students? In my experience, such students were still smart enough to know that they would have a more difficult time than other students landing a job because of their bad marks. Hence they did not expect especially lucrative salaries off the bat, let alone an easy time finding a job.

The positive, bright engineering students I knew were very grounded people. They did not expect to be handed bags of money after school, although they were definitely less concerned about their future employment.

I would bet most people claiming to make $60K+ a year upon graduation, especially because they had some sweat shop internship at RIM, are actually current students (most likely waterloo, they are the worst offenders for this kind of activity) ignorant of how the world works. Hopefully they will wake up one day. Hopefully.

Meh, I'd be a little more trusting of what people are claiming here. There's little motivation to brag when you're anonymous.

[mastercool]

the point i'm trying to make here is in general, most engineers don't make much money. Hell, most engineers don't even break six figures in their life time.

Marks has nothing to do with it. Out of any other profession, engineers or wannabe engineers seem to have this invisible sense of self importance and seem to be totally blinded by reality in general.

[Phlegmbot]

Out of any other profession, engineers or wannabe engineers seem to have this invisible sense of self importance and seem to be totally blinded by reality in general.

I would question how you would know about this sense other people have if it's invisible - but I think I know what you're trying to say.

Personally, I've seen more of this in law students than engineering students. Those guys are pompous jackasses to no end - and they dupe themselves into it, too!

[nyrz]

Marks has nothing to do with it. Out of any other profession, engineers or wannabe engineers seem to have this invisible sense of self importance and seem to be totally blinded by reality in general.

you are talking about one person: pitz?

I don't think that it's fair to talk about engineers or engineering students like that just because you read one person's (pitz) posts

[Ceryx]

you are talking about one person: pitz?

I don't think that it's fair to talk about engineers or engineering students like that just because you read one person's (pitz) posts

It actually happens a lot with engineers.

A lot of my classmates are bsing about their salary back then. It's no surprise they are trying to do the samething on RFD.

[citizen22]

Education is grossly undervalued... Grossly undervalued.

$35, 000 as a starting salary without any designation coming out of it is a joke. If this was my expected value upon graduation, I would be in the trades - period. Tax $35, 000, and you're at $24, 000 take home. Have fun paying off those student loans with that yearly income.

[jackboot]

Just curious...how did this turn into an engineering salary thread anyway?

Are engineers the only ones that are concerned or interested about their future salaries? :confused: I'd like to hear some comments from students/graduates in other areas.

I think it is especially interesting that the statscan data indicate that a lot of the so-called "easy" degrees lead to jobs that have very similar salaries compared to the highly-competitive degrees.

Oh, and I also think that the focus solely on salary is way off the mark...at least IMO. A good education can potentially lead to a lot of other benefits aside from money.

[CSR]

just curious...how did this turn into an engineering salary thread anyway?

Are engineers the only ones that are concerned or interested about their future salaries? :confused: I'd like to hear some comments from students/graduates in other areas.

I think it is especially interesting that the statscan data indicate that a lot of the so-called "easy" degrees lead to jobs that have very similar salaries compared to the highly-competitive degrees.

p-i-t-z

[vavaju]

Grads these days are too worried about their starting salaries. Most get a raise after 1 or 2 years of experience, but they're blinded by that because they're trying to keep up with the joneses (in this case their fellow peers) to see who can get the highest starting pay.

[andrew2good4u]

Grads these days are too worried about their starting salaries. Most get a raise after 1 or 2 years of experience, but they're blinded by that because they're trying to keep up with the joneses (in this case their fellow peers) to see who can get the highest starting pay.

Forget peers and what they make, I only have one thing on my mind.. OSAP
I'm trying to live like a bum for the first 2 years out of school so I can just wipe that loan away ASAP

[CrimsonGuardian]

Education is grossly undervalued... Grossly undervalued.

$35, 000 as a starting salary without any designation coming out of it is a joke. If this was my expected value upon graduation, I would be in the trades - period. Tax $35, 000, and you're at $24, 000 take home. Have fun paying off those student loans with that yearly income.

There's no doubt that I thought the same way... When I got $35k to start, I was kind of ecstatic since it was my first real job and I got really, really good benefits.

But after a few months, I definitely thought that I should have been getting at least 40k... But honestly, there's no helping what the salaries for fresh grads are. Only after experience will you get any raises. The fact is business grads typically make $35k and maybe $40k to start in their first job as fresh grads.

But its a good thing that I NEVER ONCE used OSAP and I have no student loans to pay off. Its a good feeling.

[Mayoo]

i have a few friends who work at rim. They did their coops there and came back full time with 60-65k to start + perks i believe. Not that bad at all if you ask me.

+1

[Brandon]

I have a $50k (plus good benefits) starting salary and I just graduated last month. I'm doing a computer science job, but I have a B.A. economics degree. The main reason I was able to get the job was because of my experience (7 years of part time experience in the IT/CS industry).

It's all about experience. I'd say that I have a ton more work experience compared to the average computer science student out of school. The students who were in co-op, had part time jobs in their field, etc will have a much easier time at finding a well paying job. I haven't taken a summer vacation since I was in grade 10 as I spent every summer working. The other upside to all of this experience is that I don't have OSAP to pay.

[sidman]

Just curious...how did this turn into an engineering salary thread anyway?

Are engineers the only ones that are concerned or interested about their future salaries? :confused: I'd like to hear some comments from students/graduates in other areas.

I think it is especially interesting that the statscan data indicate that a lot of the so-called "easy" degrees lead to jobs that have very similar salaries compared to the highly-competitive degrees.

Oh, and I also think that the focus solely on salary is way off the mark...at least IMO. A good education can potentially lead to a lot of other benefits aside from money.

The government pays pretty well for these "easy" degrees, but most of the time you need a master's to get in because of competition (although BA can still get you in) Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, a potential economist for the government can earn 55k just starting (ES-03) and move to 63k within the bracket (after a couple years) or apply for competitions for ES-04 starting from 64k all the way to 75k. An ES-02 with a BA starts with 47k and after one year you promote to ES-03 normally to 55k. This includes great pension, dental, and all the other benefits.

So to the people who say students that have social sciences degrees don't earn is B.S. Personally, as a student who studied economics, this degree is in demand (providing you have a MA), especially in public service and the pay is v. good (before becoming manager, an economist ES-05 can make upwards to 95k a year).

[92gsr]

So to the people who say students that have social sciences degrees don't earn is B.S. Personally, as a student who studied economics, this degree is in demand (providing you have a MA), especially in public service and the pay is v. good (before becoming manager, an economist ES-05 can make upwards to 95k a year).

Cue the people who don't value work in the public sector, or those who don't actually take stock in what economists do. :razz:

[Brandon]

So to the people who say students that have social sciences degrees don't earn is B.S. Personally, as a student who studied economics, this degree is in demand (providing you have a MA), especially in public service and the pay is v. good (before becoming manager, an economist ES-05 can make upwards to 95k a year).

From what I saw as a B.A. economics students, there are only a handful in my graduating class that I think will eventually go on to getting their M.A. It seems like my class was mostly full of people who didn't know what they wanted to do and just chose economics, or were pushed into economics after dropping out of their original programs (tons of these folks). I just wanted to do something easy so I could work part time continuously (knowing I'd do computer science work in the future) and also that would compliment computer science knowledge (originally I wanted to get a B.Comm. but that's a lot more work than a 3yr B.A. Econ degree :lol:).

...then again I went to Carleton which isn't exactly well known for it's economics program... is it??

[chris0101]

To begin with, are we all on the same page here? Are we talking net pay or gross pay? A $60k gross pay works out to about $45k net pay (or thereabouts) after you consider the taxes. So maybe that makes up for the discrepancies there.

In this economy, I think that a lot of people have grossly misunderstood the problem and what their priorities should be. Be grateful for a job at this point. In a good economy, people compete for the best jobs. In this economy, the competition is for a job.

[chris0101]

It's all about experience. I'd say that I have a ton more work experience compared to the average computer science student out of school. The students who were in co-op, had part time jobs in their field, etc will have a much easier time at finding a well paying job. I haven't taken a summer vacation since I was in grade 10 as I spent every summer working. The other upside to all of this experience is that I don't have OSAP to pay.

Experience unquestionably pays. Luck is also a factor. Maybe networking, knowing the right people and having the right relations can also help. There are many, many factors in securing high pay jobs. No single factor can dictate salary.

I am very happy that I do have a co-op in my accounting program. It will help me to get to gain experience, maybe build up a few contacts in the industry, and advance toward my professional designation. I am under no illusions though with so many employers laying off that it will be very hard to find and keep a job with a decent salary, let alone a top paying salary.

With so many people going into university these days, the relative value of the degree has dropped. It used to be that going to university was a huge advantage. Now it just gets you into the game.

[citizen22]

With so many people going into university these days, the relative value of the degree has dropped. It used to be that going to university was a huge advantage. Now it just gets you into the game.

This feels like the beginning of the end? What will happen in 10 years from now? I mean, factor the 'baby boomers' being taken out of the labor force and you're still left with a HUGE surplus of new grads within that time frame. Where do they all go?