Ask me anything about installing solar (PV) panels!

[Anonymouse]

I'm an electrical engineer who's done quite a bit of research on installing solar panels on my roof. I'll be installing them in a month or so, and I'd like to answer your questions on this topic. Why? Because I love you!

[Heynow999]

Heres something to consider. I helped install solar panels on a couple of trailers. The first one has the panels tight to the roof. The second has them about a foot off the roof. The second trailer's panels work much better. There are a few other small differences, but I think the main reason the panels work better is the large airspace that helps cool the panels.

[tommyamaral]

Where is the best place to buy good quality solar panels in ontario?

[mike24]

I'm an engineering in training and I want to install solar panels on my roof too lol. I'm also experimenting with building my own solar powered air conditioning unit.

I have been looking around to purchase a large quantity of panels but I'm having a hard time finding a supplier in the GTA. Do you know of any dealers out there?

Thanks.

[msklifesux]

hey Anonymouse:

How much does a panel costs?
does it involves any wirings?
i am thinking about installing solar pannels.
i PAY for electricity bills.. and wow.. it would help.. the costs because my brother is so horrible with turning off the lights around the house..

[checm8]

I think canadian tire used to sell solar panels

[Anonymouse]

Heres something to consider. I helped install solar panels on a couple of trailers. The first one has the panels tight to the roof. The second has them about a foot off the roof. The second trailer's panels work much better. There are a few other small differences, but I think the main reason the panels work better is the large airspace that helps cool the panels.

You get some additional harvest from the backside of the panel from the reflected light. Also, they work best when they're cold - you can get 190W panels producing 200W in the dead of winter if they're perpendicular to the sun's rays. There is also the issue of shedding snow without it bunching up when it hits the roof- it's best to have the panel at least 6 inches above the roof surface.


Where is the best place to buy good quality solar panels in ontario?

I'm not sure; I'm ordering from a website in the US and picking them up just across the border.

I'm an engineering in training and I want to install solar panels on my roof too lol. I'm also experimenting with building my own solar powered air conditioning unit.

I have been looking around to purchase a large quantity of panels but I'm having a hard time finding a supplier in the GTA. Do you know of any dealers out there?


Hi brother engineer! An air conditioner of any size will require an awful lot of solar panels! Sorry, again, I'm getting mine in the States. I don't want to name them until I'm completely satisfied.


How much does a panel costs?
between $900 and $1300 depending on brand and output
does it involves any wirings?

Yes, there's high voltage (240-600 V) wiring to be done. I'm doing my own, but I know what I'm doing (I hope)

i am thinking about installing solar pannels.
i PAY for electricity bills.. and wow.. it would help.. the costs because my brother is so horrible with turning off the lights around the house..
Basically, you're going to break even in a little over 10 years on a solar PV project, and the upfront cost starts at $2650 (for a single panel, microinverter plus utility meter) and that's just the materials. My system is going to be about $24k.

[Wallly]

Hi , I'm thinking of installing panels in my yard , a guesstimate of 3000sq' of surface area , with the panels on steel frames secured with chain, pinned to bed rock . What is the maxim distance to the inverter ? Remember I'm just thinking:)

[lagos]

so what capacity you installing for $24K?

[Anonymouse]

Hi , I'm thinking of installing panels in my yard , a guesstimate of 3000sq' of surface area , with the panels on steel frames secured with chain, pinned to bed rock . What is the maxim distance to the inverter ? Remember I'm just thinking:)

In that case, you'd put a lot of panels in series to make a nice high voltage (as high as your inverter will take) and put in as thick wires as you can afford (12 gauge or lower). You can go tens to hundreds of metres depending on the voltage and wire thickness. The thinner the wire and the longer the run, the greater the resistive loss in the cable.

so what capacity you installing for $24K?

About 2 kW. I'm installing Enphase microinverters so I can add a panel at a time as extra cash allows. My plan is to use all the available roof eventually, which will be 4-5 kW.

[Heynow999]

Where is the best place to buy good quality solar panels in ontario?

Solar panels are a funny product. Not many places have them on the shelf. Canadian Tire panels are very expensive. We can supply panels for much cheaper than Canadian Tire, and usually cheaper than ordering from the US. Our last large sale of panels we told the customer to get a price from the US and we could supply them delivered to thier business for less. Panels cost about $5-$6 a watt, so a 200 watt panel would be about $1000.

You cannot compete with the cost of grid power. It is just to cheap. Here in Canada we are electricity pigs. So you can never put solar panels on your roof and use the energy to reduce your hydro bill. The panels will never pay for themselves. However, there are ways to use them. You connect to the grid and you sell the power. The OPA will pay you 81 cents a KWhr. Your payback will be about 10 years, but this will not reduce your energy use as you will sell all the power you make.

http://www.powerauthority.on.ca/FIT/Page.asp?PageID=924&ContentID=10238

PM me if you want a quote on panels. I need to know what wattage of panel you need and how many and if you want a particular brand.

[Heynow999]

I'm an electrical engineer who's done quite a bit of research on installing solar panels on my roof. I'll be installing them in a month or so, and I'd like to answer your questions on this topic. Why? Because I love you!

have you had you site looked at by someone with solar experiance? PV panels are very susceptable to shading. Even a wire shading the panel can cause a drop in performance. With the high cost of PV it does not make sense to install them in a less than ideal location. What angle are they at? If you are in the GTA I could come by and give a quick look.

[Anonymouse]

have you had you site looked at by someone with solar experiance? PV panels are very susceptable to shading. Even a wire shading the panel can cause a drop in performance. With the high cost of PV it does not make sense to install them in a less than ideal location. What angle are they at? If you are in the GTA I could come by and give a quick look.

There is no current shading problem, although there is one tree (owned by the city) that may grow into a problem in about 10 years. There are no overhead wires or chimneys or vent stacks or anything like that.

The roof faces 200 degrees true. I am planning to have a 45 degree angle - my latitude is 44.26 deg. I'm in Kingston.

Thanks for any advice you have to offer.

[Heynow999]

45 degrees will be fine, but contrary to popular belief, your latitude is not the best angle. It may give you more consistant energy through the year, but if you are selling it to the grid, what you want is the most energy out of the panels, regardless of time of year. For Kingston, the best angle would be about 30 degrees. What you can do is get a PV calculator and try different angles until you get the best one. Don't worry about snow sliding off because of the shallow angle, you will recieve so little sunlight in the winter it will hardly matter, and snow will slide off a panel at 30 degrees anyway. Are you mounting them on the roof and what angle is roof? If it is 30 degrees or thereabouts, just mount them straight on the roof, with an airspace of course.

About panels getting reflected sunlight through the back, I am not so sure. There are panels that are specifically designed to do that, but a regular panel I doubt it would pick up energy from the back. All the ones I have seen have an opaque coating on them.

[Anonymouse]

The difference between 36 degrees (which is the highest annual output angle) and 45 degrees is (2.654-2.634) MWh, or about 16 bucks a year. I'm going with the steeper angle for better snow shedding.

Of course, I could be using RETScreen wrong; I'm not taking the training course until Tuesday.

Yah, if there's an opaque coating on the backside, you're not gonna get any harvest from there. The p-n junction doesn't care from which side the photons come, though.

[ivica5683]

In that case, you'd put a lot of panels in series to make a nice high voltage (as high as your inverter will take) and put in as thick wires as you can afford (12 gauge or lower). You can go tens to hundreds of metres depending on the voltage and wire thickness. The thinner the wire and the longer the run, the greater the resistive loss in the cable.



About 2 kW. I'm installing Enphase microinverters so I can add a panel at a time as extra cash allows. My plan is to use all the available roof eventually, which will be 4-5 kW.

What happens when your roof needs replacing? How are they fastened to the roof? Is any special hardware required. How does UV affect the fasteners?

[mike24]

Can you recommend a good inverter manufacturer?

[Heynow999]

Can you recommend a good inverter manufacturer?

Fronios (sp?), Outback, Magnum, Sunny Boy

[Heynow999]

The difference between 36 degrees (which is the highest annual output angle) and 45 degrees is (2.654-2.634) MWh, or about 16 bucks a year. I'm going with the steeper angle for better snow shedding.

Of course, I could be using RETScreen wrong; I'm not taking the training course until Tuesday.

Yah, if there's an opaque coating on the backside, you're not gonna get any harvest from there. The p-n junction doesn't care from which side the photons come, though.

It's good that you are using Retscreen. It's a bit difficult to use but hey, it's free. Here's a good easy one

http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/codes_algs/PVWATTS/version1/

It seems like you have looked into things. There really are two sides to a solar installation. Figuring out the electrical is part of it but the second part is choosing a good site. Since you are an electrical engineer I figured that the electrical would be easy but you may not have experiance with site evaluation.

A story along those lines. We do mainly solar pool heaters. We went to a house where the customer was going to build a rack in his yard to put the panels on. He showed us where he wanted to build the rack. The spot looked good, no shade. So we give him a few weeks to build the rack. We come back to install the panels and he built the rack in a different spot, very close to some trees. He said, it's no problem, I watched the sun and this spot gets lots of sun. Yea sure, on july 10th it gets a ton of sun because the sun is almost straight up in the sky. But give it 6 weeks and he may not be so happy with the system.

With PV, It is such a big investment that it is worth it to at least have a solar guy take a look. I am only advising caution.

I take it you are going to use the FIT program?

[Heynow999]

Just another thought.

Trackers are not worth the money, but if you can make a rack that you can seasonally adjust, that should be considered. Usually best with a ground mount.

[Dynomite2910]

Where is the best place to buy good quality solar panels in ontario?

Costco seems to be selling more and more alternative energy products. I find they usually stock good quality products because of their liberal return policy (they can't afford to stock cheap stuff because will all just come back).

Costco's Solar Products (http://www.costco.ca/Common/Category.aspx?whse=BCCA&Ne=4000000&N=4010917&in_dim_search=1&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&Nr=P_CatalogName:BCCA&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-CA&search=solar&topnav=)
They have everything right up to a single 130W panel for $999.

Anonymouse - can you comment on Costco's prices compared to what you are paying to get stuff from the US ?

Note that Costco's online prices include shipping costs. If you can find any of these products in the warehouse they will be slightly cheaper - I have seen the 6W Coleman package in the warehouse before, can't remember the price though.

D.

[Anonymouse]

It seems like you have looked into things. There really are two sides to a solar installation. Figuring out the electrical is part of it but the second part is choosing a good site. Since you are an electrical engineer I figured that the electrical would be easy but you may not have experiance with site evaluation.

You are absolutely right, and I will be running the final design by a fellow engineer who installs these systems for a living. He's been to my site.

There are so many practical implementation details! My training is in semiconductor (chip) design, which is kind of relevant, but also kind of not. My wife teaches sustainability at a local university, so we have access to people who do solar research for a living.

I take it you are going to use the FIT program?

Yah, I don't know of any other way to make the economic aspect work out!

Costco seems to be selling more and more alternative energy products. I find they usually stock good quality products because of their liberal return policy (they can't afford to stock cheap stuff because will all just come back).

Anonymouse - can you comment on Costco's prices compared to what you are paying to get stuff from the US ?


I'm getting Sanyo HIP-190DA3, Bifacial Solar Panel, 190 Watt, 40 Volt panels. I'm paying about C$1250 per panel for them. These are much higher-output panels than what I'm seeing on Costco's site. Sorry, I haven't looked into pricing on micro-sized systems like that.

[Heynow999]

Costco seems to be selling more and more alternative energy products. I find they usually stock good quality products because of their liberal return policy (they can't afford to stock cheap stuff because will all just come back).

Costco's Solar Products (http://www.costco.ca/Common/Category.aspx?whse=BCCA&Ne=4000000&N=4010917&in_dim_search=1&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&Nr=P_CatalogName:BCCA&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-CA&search=solar&topnav=)
They have everything right up to a single 130W panel for $999.

Anonymouse - can you comment on Costco's prices compared to what you are paying to get stuff from the US ?

Note that Costco's online prices include shipping costs. If you can find any of these products in the warehouse they will be slightly cheaper - I have seen the 6W Coleman package in the warehouse before, can't remember the price though.

D.

We can beat those prices. I have never heard of "Sunforce" before.

The OP is doing it right. When you are buying something that is expected to last 25 to 40 years, you should buy quality panels from a manufacturer that will be there to stand behind the warranty.

Those Sanyo's are nice panels. I don't want to seem like a jerk, but those panels are ment to be mounted as an awning where light will be reflected to hit the back. I thought you might be talking about them when you mentioned light hitting the back. They also let light through them so it is not too dark underneath them. They are good high quality panels, but if all you are going to do is mount them on a roof you can get cheaper panels that will do the same job. You should build something like this.

http://dtesolar.ca/index.php?page=photos&action=view&gallery=10

Pictures

[Anonymouse]

Here's the latest numbers (which are still subject to change). I decided to drop the enphase microinverters in favour of a traditional big one.


10 x Canadian Solar CS6P-e 200W module = 10780
1 x Xantrex GT-2800 = 2769
1 x custom welded rack = 1200
1 x meter base w/ disconnect = 377
1 x DC disconnect = 341
feed wire & misc = 500


which works out to about $16800 after GST. I'll get $1360 from Steven Harper, so I'll be out of pocket about $15500.

I'm still not clear on the tax treatment of all this, but I think the depreciation will generate an opportunity to offset a portion of my exorbitant engineer's salary (har), at least in the early years.

[Heynow999]

I don't think Harper will give you anything, but McGuinty will refund your PST, but that might be what you ment. I think they should give some grant/rebate to cover the large captial cost of a system. I know in Austrailia for example the government will give a rebate of about %80 of the cost of the system. I think that would get more people interested. They had a program in the Toronto area last year. I went to a meeting way out in the boonies and I was stunded at how many people showed up.

[Anonymouse]

The federal government has a renovation incentive program that pays $1360. Solar panels qualify.

[Heynow999]

The federal government has a renovation incentive program that pays $1360. Solar panels qualify.

Good point, the HRTC, so just remember that on top of that you can get the PST back. You have to fill out a form to claim it, if you paid any on the purchase.

[comdot]

The federal government has a renovation incentive program that pays $1360. Solar panels qualify.

what about solar pool panels?

[Anonymouse]

Yes, solar pool heaters seem to qualify:

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/sgmnts/hmwnr/hrtc/lgbl-xpns-eng.html

[sawmilleng]

Hi!
I'm a newbie in this forum, found it googling around. I'm buying solar panels for a small non profit internet society here and have been paying a little more than Anonymouse--$1100 CDN for 175 W panels. $6.25/watt. But that is from local backyard suppliers.

I just tripped over this link: http://sunelec.com/
They are located in Florida, selling panels for US$ 2.48-4.00/watt. The lower end prices seem to be pretty good, even with shipping. They offer a full pallet of panels for some decent prices as well: $14,000US for 28 panels, 205 W. $500 per panel. Panels are lower voltage--18V mostly. No UL, no CSA. I don't think this would work for anyone who has to have an electrical inspector around, but for joe average off-grid it's just fine.

....thoughts and opinions?

Jon.

[edgedamage]

For someone who likes to build my own things, is there a local supplier of mono-crystalline solar cells in Toronto? So I could build my own panels. Like this guy did:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Build_a_60_Watt_Solar_Panel/

[lagos]

Hi!
I'm a newbie in this forum, found it googling around. I'm buying solar panels for a small non profit internet society here and have been paying a little more than Anonymouse--$1100 CDN for 175 W panels. $6.25/watt. But that is from local backyard suppliers.

I just tripped over this link: http://sunelec.com/
They are located in Florida, selling panels for US$ 2.48-4.00/watt. The lower end prices seem to be pretty good, even with shipping. They offer a full pallet of panels for some decent prices as well: $14,000US for 28 panels, 205 W. $500 per panel. Panels are lower voltage--18V mostly. No UL, no CSA. I don't think this would work for anyone who has to have an electrical inspector around, but for joe average off-grid it's just fine.

....thoughts and opinions?

Jon.

you know that is an interesting website and the company to say the least. They say if you buy a whole pallet, you get a free laptop. Their prices are also pretty low. I mean they are like close to China FOB prices.