RAPTORS

[SwiZz]

What to do with this team? =(

Although ppl may disagree, I think we need to trade Marshall for someone else. In mid-season a lot of ppl ddin't wan tto get rid of him because he was playing good. But if you look now, he's in a huge slump....and he's near the end of his career soon. Should trade him for a younger player.

[nx2k]

i think the raptors are destined to stink for another 10 years or atleast until when carter learns to be more consistent and carry a team on his back.
i think marshall overall has been the only bright spot on the raptors this year.
they should really go out and get an established point guard to control the offence.
they play a pretty boring @ss game too, averaging what? like 75pts a game?

[shadowfighta]

Trade Marshall for either a decent pg or a center. Hope for a high draft pick and draft a player to fill whatever position they didn't trade Marshall for. Hopefully Bosh will bulk up this off season!

[j3fan]

They gotta get rid of Carter and bring in someone that has good work ethics and leadership....

[deep]

I've been wanting to like Carter for years now....but I just can't. He won't be a consistent franchise player until he begins to prepare himself physically and mentally for the game. Hit the gym, get a bit more resilient, and quit the damn whiny-face.

Mind you, an actual honest to god point guard and a centre might accomplish the same thing.

[trini]

Sex,drugs and parties!

[3-putt]

The Raptors have to learn fundamentals. I like O'Neill as a coach, and he has them playing pretty good defence. But he has no creativity on the offensive end.

Toronto has so much talent, it is incredible that they are sub-500, let alone not in the playoffs. We should be running the same offence that Sacramento runs, with the big man in the high post, and everyone else cutting. We have 2 great big men (Marshall and Bosh) who are very good offensively, shooting and passing-wise. Have Carter (or Jalen or whoever else) run around them a couple times and then they will get a open jumper or a dunk. There is no reason Carter shouldn't be getting 4-5 dunks every game with this offense, because they are always playing his shot. Starting the ball in Marshall's hands means then can't double team Vince right away, or Marshall gets a layup.

Fundamental basketball. Raptors have to learn how to use picks, they have to learn how to set screens away from the ball, how to move without the ball. Unfortunately, our smartest player (MoPete) is also our least atheletic and least consistent player.

Wonder why we only score 70 points per game? Our offense is getting Vince Carter the ball outside the 3-point line, and then clearing out. He could get that position by dribbling the ball upcourt. Then Vince waits 2 seconds, to figure out what he wants to do, then he dribbles a little, and does a fade-away jumpshot. Sure, when he's hot, he makes those shots. But when he goes 0 for 8 in the third, after building a 15 point lead, he almost cost us the game last week. Wouldn't it be nice to see Vince curl around the screen and get the ball while he is cutting to the basket for a dunk?

I think we should get Hubie Brown in to teach these guys. Look at the Grizzlies. They don't do anything special, they don't have any superstars. Just some very good players and they play good fundamental basketball. I'd even like to see Leo Rautin's come in a be the offensive coach.

[flipside]

i agree with 3-putt. the offense is much the same as last year. vince gets the ball while moving away from the basket and becomes a 1 and 1 and as soon as he drives it becomes a 1 and 4. chances are slimmer getting a couple of points when the defense is waiting.

carter or jalen should be getting the ball while cutting to the hoop.

[mingcourt]

they should really go out and get an established point guard to control the offence.
Unfortunately, many teams in the NBA also lack established point guards.
Rarely will you find one who can really lead the team. Jason Kidd is the only one i can think of.

Trade Marshall for either a decent pg or a center. Hope for a high draft pick and draft a player to fill whatever position they didn't trade Marshall for. Hopefully Bosh will bulk up this off season!
As i expressed above, many teams lack PG's. But also C's. Zydrunas Ilgaukas and Jamal Magloire are the only Cs i can think of from the East which shows how much we lack.
Dont get me wrong, Marshall is very good. But no one is going to give up a C for him.

-----

The game yesterday was well played in our part offensively.
The team went 41-93(44.1%) and played good in my opinion.
Jalen Rose -> 12-24
Vince Carter -> 11-27
Morris Peterson -> 9-16 <- Our bright spot.
In MoPete's first year, he cut to the rim. Now... he hangs around on the 3 pt arc during a fast break. Look at him yesterday, taking high percentage shoes. He went 0-4 from 3pt land...
He's very skilled, but inconsistent.

--

We lack a lot of things. But in my opinion, we lack what we lost.
Charles Oakley, he wasnt the greatest at basketball but he was agressive and was 'tough'. Not only that, he motivated Vince Carter as did Butch Carter.
I liked Butch, He forced alot of issues though he wasnt liked by the majority.

[SwiZz]

the fact that carters getting married in the summer makes me wonder if he'll work on his game or not a little more =\..

[hisoka]

As much as I like Carter, it was funny how in the very first game vs. the NJ Nets, he scored 39 and I was all excited about the season and his game. He said how he's changed and blah blah to his critics ... and after that game he went downhill ! Come on Carter !!

[oceans_end]

Originally posted by j3fan@Apr 12 2004, 01:40 AM
They gotta get rid of Carter and bring in someone that has good work ethics and leadership....
amen

[SwiZz]

well season's over....

they finished with two good games..its unfortunate that they're going to let O'Neil go....i thought he was a good coach....very enthusiastic, almost alwyas standing....

pray to god we get a high draft pick.....another big man for chris bosh...watching him play today (vs the bucks) just shows how much he' can do for toronto...

i'm eagerly looking forward to next season....

despite the vince bashing....we still need him...like him or not, he's got talent....and we can't just trade him away like that as many want to

[friesenth]

I think trading carter would be a good idea, but you have to be careful what you get for him. For instance you would be trading a possible franchise player in carter, so you would want atleast that in return. So then you have to look at teams that have a franchise player, but he might not be happy in his current situation, and looking at this last season there are a few that come to mind.

1. Allen Iverson - Team is not in the playoffs, had an injury prone season, and his old coach is gone.
Vince is also out of playoffs, and is just plain injury prone.

2. T-Mac - HAHA..............I'm not touching that one.

There are a few others too.

The other option would be to try and trade him away in hopes of having cap room for free agents. Though i don't think it likely that any free agents would chose Toronto over other teams with cap room......not sure why, just have that feeling.

Finally you trade him for a couple of good/not great yet players, and hope for the best.



By the way I agree that what Toronto needs is a point guard, but I also think that if they got Bosh some good post help both on the offensive and defensive end, Rose and Williams would be fine.


I want to cheer for the Raptors and have them in the playoffs, especially since i get 'Raptors NBA TV' and all they seem to show is Raptor games, so it would be nice if they could be a winning team.


So thats my two cents.

[spike-spiegel]

Definitely too bad O'Neil is going to be gone. I liked him and he did his best with what he had. Don't trade Carter, he is a huge sale and still is a franchise player. Let's hope Raptors get some good bench players and a natural point guard in the summer.

[3-putt]

Originally posted by SwiZz+Apr 14 2004, 10:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SwiZz @ Apr 14 2004, 10:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>well season's over....

they finished with two good games..its unfortunate that they're going to let O'Neil go....i thought he was a good coach....very enthusiastic, almost alwyas standing....

pray to god we get a high draft pick.....another big man for chris bosh...watching him play today (vs the bucks) just shows how much he' can do for toronto...

i'm eagerly looking forward to next season....

despite the vince bashing....we still need him...like him or not, he's got talent....and we can't just trade him away like that as many want to[/b]
2 games that meant nothing, where Detroit sat Billups and Rasheed. Another big man to compliment Bosh... how about Okafor?! He's a beast.

I like O'Neill. PRO: No other coach has been able to get anything out of the Raptors, maybe it is Vince's fault. CON: Even when Vince is on the bench, they still run nothing on the offensive end. I like that O'Neill works hard, but he should have something to show us on the offensive end.

<!--QuoteBegin--friesenth@Apr 15 2004, 12:57 AM
I think trading carter would be a good idea, but you have to be careful what you get for him.&nbsp; For instance you would be trading a possible franchise player in carter, so you would want atleast that in return.&nbsp; So then you have to look at teams that have a franchise player, but he might not be happy in his current situation, and looking at this last season there are a few that come to mind.

1.&nbsp; Allen Iverson - Team is not in the playoffs, had an injury prone season, and his old coach is gone.&nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; Vince is also out of playoffs, and is just plain injury prone.

2.&nbsp; T-Mac - HAHA..............I'm not touching that one.

There are a few others too.

The other option would be to try and trade him away in hopes of having cap room for free agents.&nbsp; Though i don't think it likely that any free agents would chose Toronto over other teams with cap room......not sure why, just have that feeling.

Finally you trade him for a couple of good/not great yet players, and hope for the best.



By the way I agree that what Toronto needs is a point guard, but I also think that if they got Bosh some good post help both on the offensive and defensive end, Rose and Williams would be fine.


I want to cheer for the Raptors and have them in the playoffs, especially since i get 'Raptors NBA TV' and all they seem to show is Raptor games, so it would be nice if they could be a winning team.


So thats my two cents.[/quote]
Great points. It goes to show you a super star cannot win you games. But what would you get for Vince right now? Not very much. And Vince is actually a reason some of those players are willing to come to Toronto to play. But I think Vince being sat at the end of the Allstar game was very telling of what the coaches in the NBA think of him.

What the Raptors need is a system, offensive and defensive, that the players all buy into. Their defense is good. But it drives me crazy seeing Vince get the ball outside the 3 point line, dribble, and then take a fadeaway. Ideally, it would be nice if Vince is the marquee player in the Raptors offensive system, but at what point do we say "It can't be the 3 coaches that Vince has played for, so maybe it's Vince"

All the top teams have one thing in common. Great coaching. Sacramento, San Antonio, Lakers, Indiana, Detroit. Look at the Grizzlies: they get a great coach (Hubie Brown) and they end up 18 games over 500. imho, Coach of the Year.

[mingcourt]

I'd like to see Leo Rautins or Jack Armstrong go and coach.

Leo talks like he's a bad boy and Jack... i just love his finger coaching :D

[friesenth]

All the top teams have one thing in common. Great coaching. Sacramento, San Antonio, Lakers, Indiana, Detroit. Look at the Grizzlies: they get a great coach (Hubie Brown) and they end up 18 games over 500. imho, Coach of the Year.

Very true, but where is Minnesota on your list of top teams.

sorry to nitpick but I just had to get my team in there....GO WOLVES!!!!!!! :ph34r:

[3-putt]

Originally posted by friesenth@Apr 15 2004, 08:28 PM
All the top teams have one thing in common. Great coaching. Sacramento, San Antonio, Lakers, Indiana, Detroit. Look at the Grizzlies: they get a great coach (Hubie Brown) and they end up 18 games over 500. imho, Coach of the Year.

Very true, but where is Minnesota on your list of top teams.

sorry to nitpick but I just had to get my team in there....GO WOLVES!!!!!!! :ph34r:
Whoops, I knew I had only 3 of the top 4 western teams. Saunders is a good coach, and it helps to have KG, Cassell and Sprewell. :rolleyes:

[PPPP]

Is anyone surprised that Miami is No. 4 in the East given how badly their start was at the beginning of the season & the departure of Pat Riley? since we're on the topic of coaches...

Edit: Oh, and not to mention the loss of Mourning

[mingcourt]

Originally posted by 3-putt@Apr 16 2004, 12:12 AM
Whoops, I knew I had only 3 of the top 4 western teams. Saunders is a good coach, and it helps to have KG, Cassell and Sprewell. :rolleyes:
Sprewell has done jack other than the game vs. the Knicks.

Any other time Sprewell is "dominate" is when KG is off his game in a LOSING effort.

[friesenth]

Sprewell is very streaky, i won't argue that. But i don't think that the Wolves would be where they are without him. Just the fact that he COULD go off makes teams have to guard him leaving KG and sammy a little more open. Not to mention that he is a good defender, and him and sammy both have playoff/finals experience which is never a bad thing.

[sfu_lifer]

First thing to do, hire Jeff Bzdelik (coach of the Nuggets) as soon as he's let go by the stupid Nuggets organization.
Then trade Vince for somebody good (but with more spunk) and a draft pick.

[FuNPoLiCe001]

KO needed to go. The guy would make a great assistant coach, but he's a terrible head coach. He's too damn stubborn to use players to their strengths instead of trying to mold them to our system. Look at all the guys that the raptors signed who just rotted away on the bench, or even guys whom we signed at the start of the season. Moiso, Murray, Glover, Strickland...all guys we could've used in our rotation. Murray's an ass as well, but he can score, and if given the chance he would've been a good bench player and given us another option off the bench asides from mo pete whose inconsistent. We could've really used Moiso's rebounding and shot blocking, and that's what we signed him for but KO refused to play him because Moiso wasn't good with recognizing the need for help D in KO's system. Glover he just never played after we dropped Baxter for him. Strickland signed on and had a couple of amazing games, and then KO decided that the raptor offense needed to be run his way (which is crap), and benched Strickland and the raptors went back to not being able to score. He also never played Bradley, eventhough Bradley was a good rebounder and finisher for us last year and we could've really used a post player other than Marshall and Bosh. KO also has this illogical desire to play Curry 25 minutes a night eventhough Curry's defense isn't what it used to be, and he averages about the same amount of points as he does fouls every night. In general, KO was very bad at utilizing the strengths of the team to his advantage. His offensive sets are also crap, which is why it's not a surprise that the Raptors had their biggest winning streak of the year when they traded for Jalen and Marshall, and for the couple of games after they got here, KO just let the players run the offense instead of having them play his slow "playoff" basketball craptacular style.

O'neil was also very manipulative and I think destructive to the team with all his behind door conflicts with players and management. As well as him leaking stories to the press so he could wreck a trade he didn't like.

Can you tell that I hate KO by now? :)

The Raps also have problems with management though...they're understaffed in the scouting department, and Grunwald basically had no power within the organization because Richard Peddie wouldn't let him do anything. Peddie knows next to nothing about basketball, and yet he insists on taking an active part in shaping the team's roster. If he doesn't get fired, the Raptors are gonna pick up another GM who'll just be a puppet and continue to suck. What they need to do is hire a good GM with a plan, and give him the power to execute this plan instead of having everything being controlled by big wigs who don't know anything about basketball.

The Raps have to look at two different paths. They either build around Vince and wait for Bosh to mature, so say in...2-3 years when Bosh is a 20-10-5 guy, and vince is around 30 and there's a good supporting cast (and an actual bench...the raps bench was crap this year), the team might be able to make a good run at things for a couple of years.

The other option is to trade Vince for picks + young prospects, but I don't think cause Vince still sells tickets to the ACC, and it just doesn't seem like anyone's going to pony up something of equal value to what Carter's worth to this team. The team has proven that they can't win without him, so I don't see the Raps trading Vince in the next year, especially with the looming hockey strike which makes the Raps the only ticket in town.

Vince has also played really well in the last 2 months, so it looks like he's finally gaining some confidence back after his injuries. So trading him now when he's starting to put it all together would be a mistake. The raps are probably going to pick 8th in the upcoming draft, which means they'll probably have a good chance of getting a prospect C or a point, both of which we need. So the thing that is most important right now is for the raps to get rid of Peddie, hire some scouts, get a coach in place, and focus on the draft.

And I think the nuggets have said that they'd like to keep Bzedelik. He's a good coach (a little smug at times), but they shouldn't fire him just because he doesn't get along with 'Melo. That kid needs to mature a big...he's too cocky for his own good right now.

[ledorky]

Nope the Nuggets are mum on the whole situation.
The only thing they will say is he's under contract for next season but that doesn't mean they will stay with him.
Kiki is a great friend of George Karl and he is salivating at being able to land Karl for next year.
They'd be doing a "Detroit" if they dump a new-but-proven coach for a high profile one.
Yeah, Melo was his own cheerleading section this year. Got a bit big-headed but he sure can play ball. One thing you can say about him, he's not a choke artist and he started playing very hard after he lost some weight.

[3-putt]

funpolice, I do agree with you in some aspects. A coach should lean towards his players' strengths. But as for playing time, I like his rational. Work hard (on the court and especially in practice) and you'll get playing time. Especially if you work hard on the defensive end. You're right about Curry's best days behind him, but he is still one of the smartest players on the team, and in the league.

I also agree that Rose and Marshall played their best offensive games when they first joined the Raptors, but I attribute their drop off to them having to work harder on the defensive end, and also to the 'give the ball to Vince' syndrome.

I don't think trading Vince is an option. He is still an all-star, and unless you get an all-star for him, you will lose out. And with Vince's market value at a career low, you would not get what he is worth. Vince is still the go to guy, and when he's hot, there is no tougher guy to cover smaller than 6'9'. The only trade I might entertain is a 2-for-1, where we get a very good centre and a very good point guard, so that we could plug all our holes.

Damn, we could've had Melo. And then could've gotten rid of Vince. For this year's draft, we need a big, bulky, athletic body. Okafor would be nice, but he'll be pick #1.

As for coaching, we need some one to teach all these babies some fundamentals. Someone like Hubie Brown, down in Memphis. Learn to play some sound defense, and sound offense (pick and roll, screens, move without the ball, how to draw a foul).

[Matthew.M]

carter is a douche bag

[SwiZz]

carter is a douche bag

what the heck?.......this thread is over a year old.....lol...theres no need to bring it up just to say carter is a douche bag.... =\