Complete Fuel System Cleaner in car needed?

[win-star]

Hi,

I am thinking of buying a bottle of Complete Fuel System Cleaner from either Canadian Tire or Walmart.

Is it worth but it? ... I have never used it before and never used a fuel system cleaner before but was recommended by a friend. E-test is soon coming up for my car also.

At Canadian tire:
Redline SI-1 Complete Fuel System Cleaner - $10.99
http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/4/Auto/3/AutoFluidsChemicals/EngineTreatments/PRD~0411717P/Red%2BLine%2BSI-1%2BComplete%2BFuel%2BSystem%2BCleaner.jsp

At walmart:
Prestone Complete Fuel System Cleaner - $9.97
http://www.walmart.ca/wps-portal/storelocator/Canada-Automotive.jsp?selection=listingDetails&tabId=14&singledept=null&lang=&assetId=30628&imageId=44522&suggestedItem=&priceType=1&page=null&departmentId=57&categoryId=318&tabId=14

If recommended ... which one is better?


thanks,

[rchong]

No, it's not worth the money.

[m4gician]

uh...

try Seafoam if you can get your hands on it, or Berryman's B12. Otherwise lucas fuel system treatment is fine I guess.

[macnut]

If you do really need it, a bottle of Techron from a Chevron station has the best chance of justifying the handing over of your hard-earned money.

[jed]

Change your fuel filter annually - that will do more to keep your car running well than anything you can put in your tank. Except gas antifreeze.

[m4gician]

Change your fuel filter annually - that will do more to keep your car running well than anything you can put in your tank. Except gas antifreeze.

I changed mine last winter, I should order a new one and change it before summer ends.

[jed]

One of the most neglected maintenance parts - fuel pumps will last ALOT longer with annual changes of the fuel filter.

[subagear]

try Seafoam if you can get your hands on it, or Berryman's B12. Otherwise lucas fuel system treatment is fine I guess.

+1 for Seafoam

[ES_Revenge]

It's alright preventative maintenance, put a bottle in every once in a while (say every oil change or so) but don't expect it to cure problems once you get them--that it usually won't be able to do.

[sickcars]

Changing your Fuel filter will have more of a improvement then putting in any cleaner. I just changed my fuel filter this past weekend been almost a year since the last time I have done it and I noticed a big difference in performance just from that.

Also a very good mechanic I'm friends with told me that this is one of the better products you can buy on the market to help clean out your car.
http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/Green/EnergyConservation/FuelSavings/PRD~0380118P/Lucas%2BUpper%2BCylinder%2BLubricant%2BWith%2BInje ctor%2BCleaner.jsp

[Pete_Coach]

One of the most neglected maintenance parts - fuel pumps will last ALOT longer with annual changes of the fuel filter.
If your car has a fuel filter that can be replaced it will state so in the owners manual as part of the maintenance schedule. Some don't have them any more, there are just screens on the fuel pump.
OP, how has your car been running? Most importantly, has the fuel mileage gone up? If not, it is OK. Fuel mileage is the key element in the engine efficiency. If your mileage goes up (cold weather excepted) without reason, then you have an issue somewhere and it needs to be diagnosed. If you are getting the same mileage now than before, you don't have a problem. 1 or 3 mpg difference can be accounted for traffic or weather or wind but if it decreases more than that, you need to find out why.
The majority of those fuel injector cleaners are only some sort of petroleum distillates sometimes with naphtha in varying proportions and all of the "miracles in a bottle" are clear oil and naphtha in secret proportions. Check the Material Safety Data Sheets of any of the products for contents.

[yungstar]

Funny this thread came up. I actually tried one of these, the STP Maximum Performance one from Canadian Tire. It was like 11 bux or so, so I figured what the hell.

I noticed a different almost instantly which surprised the hell out of me.

Idle was better, mid range acceleration felt better, and my mileage went up about 2 MPG.

You're only suppose to use these every 4-5 fill ups, I'll probably do it again.

[l69norm]

IMO, I think it's better to use the money and buy a couple cans of throttle body cleaner. Every year or two, pull the throttle body off and remove the IAC motor/TPS. Clean away the carbon off the throttle blade, IAC seat and out of the metering slots/holes.

Optional - Pull the EGR valve and clean the carbon off the seat.

Reassemble and use what's left to blast the inside of the intake manifold.

[craftsman]

IMO, I think it's better to use the money and buy a couple cans of throttle body cleaner. Every year or two, pull the throttle body off and remove the IAC motor/TPS. Clean away the carbon off the throttle blade, IAC seat and out of the metering slots/holes.

Optional - Pull the EGR valve and clean the carbon off the seat.

Reassemble and use what's left to blast the inside of the intake manifold.

Regular service on both those parts are a must!

But there is some merit with using something to remove the carbon deposits from inside the cylinders as well.

[Pete_Coach]

Funny this thread came up. I actually tried one of these, the STP Maximum Performance one from Canadian Tire. It was like 11 bux or so, so I figured what the hell.

I noticed a different almost instantly which surprised the hell out of me.

Idle was better, mid range acceleration felt better, and my mileage went up about 2 MPG.

You're only suppose to use these every 4-5 fill ups, I'll probably do it again.
What you are feeling instantly is the effect of adding something more volatile to your gas. the explosions in your combustion chamber is aided by naphtha or alcohol as opposed to being just gasoline vapours.
IMO, I think it's better to use the money and buy a couple cans of throttle body cleaner. Every year or two, pull the throttle body off and remove the IAC motor/TPS. Clean away the carbon off the throttle blade, IAC seat and out of the metering slots/holes.
Optional - Pull the EGR valve and clean the carbon off the seat.
Reassemble and use what's left to blast the inside of the intake manifold.
This does take a certain level of skill, knowledge and have the tools to do this. it is easy to say but perhaps a lot more difficult to accomplish.
Regular service on both those parts are a must!
But there is some merit with using something to remove the carbon deposits from inside the cylinders as well.
The only place there would be any carbon is the cylinder head and that is really quite rare these days.
Carbon build up was primarily on engines that were running rich. In the old days, carburetors were always out of tune and it happened a lot. Today, the computers control the fuel ai mixture for optimal efficiency and economy. The chances of you building up carbon on the cylinder heads or even the exhaust vale are slim to none. Don't be phased by the advertising photos.

[ES_Revenge]

Funny this thread came up. I actually tried one of these, the STP Maximum Performance one from Canadian Tire. It was like 11 bux or so, so I figured what the hell.
Emphasis added.

What I always hate about these additives in Canada is the price is, relatively speaking, in the sky. There's one I buy in the US (I think it's Prestone but I can't remember now) that is a "complete system" cleaner. In the US it's $5/bottle, $4 sometimes on sale. The "lesser" cleaners are even less money. In Canada that exact same product? $14 :rolleyes: That $11 cleaner above is probably like $3-4 in the US--sad eh? It's totally not worth it buying this stuff over here.

[ivica5683]

One of the most neglected maintenance parts - fuel pumps will last ALOT longer with annual changes of the fuel filter.


Over 300,000 kms. Same fuel filter. Not supposed to be changed on some cars. Made to last the life of the car. I guess the filtere is designed with enough surface area to last much longer than filters of the past.

[ivica5683]

IMO, I think it's better to use the money and buy a couple cans of throttle body cleaner. Every year or two, pull the throttle body off and remove the IAC motor/TPS. Clean away the carbon off the throttle blade, IAC seat and out of the metering slots/holes.

Optional - Pull the EGR valve and clean the carbon off the seat.

Reassemble and use what's left to blast the inside of the intake manifold.

+1 Totally agree. I did this ever 2-3 years on my Accord when the throttle plate started getting sticky. This really did the trick. After a while I started using only Shell fuel and haven't had the problem return. I'm assuming their fuels have cleaning additives.

[Pete_Coach]

+1 Totally agree. I did this ever 2-3 years on my Accord when the throttle plate started getting sticky. This really did the trick. After a while I started using only Shell fuel and haven't had the problem return. I'm assuming their fuels have cleaning additives.

There is no fuel at the throttle valve , just air. It is dirty because of dirty incoming air. The way to keep the throttle valve (butterfly) clean(er) is to ensure that your air filter is always clean and there are no leaks in the intake air path. The fuel is delivered to the combustion chamber by injectors at the cylinder head (some older injected engines excepted).
In the old days, you stepped on the gas but in today's cars you actually step on the air :lol:. Or, in some cases on the very new cars, you step on a electrically activated pedal to a computer controlled fuel injector.

[ES_Revenge]

There is no fuel at the throttle valve , just air. It is dirty because of dirty incoming air. The way to keep the throttle valve (butterfly) clean(er) is to ensure that your air filter is always clean and there are no leaks in the intake air path.
Yeah but the tb gets dirty from blow-by and oil vapour too. I mean look at the upper intakes of a lot of engines, they aren't exactly clean and that's normal. The stuff that usually dirties the throttle body comes from the engine side, not the intake side. While fuel type may make some difference in TB "gum up" problems, I would think that oil type is a little more important here.

The fuel is delivered to the combustion chamber by injectors at the cylinder head (some older injected engines excepted).
Kind of vague statement, no? Most engines in the last decade or so are multiport designs where there's one injector per cylinder and the injectors spray into the intake runners just above the head--the fuel mixes with the air in the intake manifold and then goes in the engine when the respective intake valve opens. With direct injection engines (which are becoming more common these days but certainly don't consitutute the majority of engines) then the injectors deliver the fuel directly into the head/combustion chamber.

In the old days, you stepped on the gas but in today's cars you actually step on the air :lol:. Or, in some cases on the very new cars, you step on a electrically activated pedal to a computer controlled fuel injector.
Which is why I really dislike the term "gas pedal" as it implies very little understanding about a gasoline car engine.

[l69norm]

These pictures are typical of the carbon buildup on a throttle body:
http://carfixonline.blogspot.com/2007/10/diagnostic-tech-92-ford-tempo-eeciv.html

Front of throttle body - hey, it looks really nice and shiny. Why does it need need cleaning?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_KdsdJG3UDr8/RtousQh8ZQI/AAAAAAAAABk/U1uEBaA1UGk/s320/MVC-065S.JPG

Back of the same throttle body - heavy black tar and carbon buildup:
http://bp3.blogger.com/_KdsdJG3UDr8/Rto2Hwh8ZSI/AAAAAAAAAB0/epwZplbe8qw/s320/MVC-070S.JPG

Intake manifold plenum behind throttle body shown heavy carbon and tar buildup. The hole where the carbon is built up is the EGR port. The web page text indicates that the port is totally blocked by carbon:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KdsdJG3UDr8/Rto0ugh8ZRI/AAAAAAAAABs/tseSpyKOeSk/s320/MVC-069S.JPG

The carbon buildup comes from the engine exhaust via the EGR system. The PVC system also introduces oil vapour. The combination of oil+carbon gives you a tar like build up. Anything you add in the gas tank isn't going to touch this stuff.

The end result is you get sticking throttle blades, stuck IAC motors, stuck EGR valves and plugged metering ports = drivability problems like rough idle, hard starting, stalling, etc.....

[Pete_Coach]

These pictures are typical of the carbon buildup on a throttle body:
http://carfixonline.blogspot.com/2007/10/diagnostic-tech-92-ford-tempo-eeciv.html

Front of throttle body - hey, it looks really nice and shiny. Why does it need need cleaning?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_KdsdJG3UDr8/RtousQh8ZQI/AAAAAAAAABk/U1uEBaA1UGk/s320/MVC-065S.JPG

Back of the same throttle body - heavy black tar and carbon buildup:
http://bp3.blogger.com/_KdsdJG3UDr8/Rto2Hwh8ZSI/AAAAAAAAAB0/epwZplbe8qw/s320/MVC-070S.JPG

Intake manifold plenum behind throttle body shown heavy carbon and tar buildup. The hole where the carbon is built up is the EGR port. The web page text indicates that the port is totally blocked by carbon:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KdsdJG3UDr8/Rto0ugh8ZRI/AAAAAAAAABs/tseSpyKOeSk/s320/MVC-069S.JPG

The carbon buildup comes from the engine exhaust via the EGR system. The PVC system also introduces oil vapour. The combination of oil+carbon gives you a tar like build up. Anything you add in the gas tank isn't going to touch this stuff.

The end result is you get sticking throttle blades, stuck IAC motors, stuck EGR valves and plugged metering ports = drivability problems like rough idle, hard starting, stalling, etc.....
You know, and I am not saying you are wrong by any means because you have pictures, but I have taken quite a few apart though and have never seen one this dirty or gummed up. I strongly suspect that this is an extreme example and probably had some other major problem (egr failure, engine exhaust etc) to cause this. There would have been significant driveability issues for a quite a while if this was found. This is in no way typical or usual.

[Pete_Coach]

Yeah but the tb gets dirty from blow-by and oil vapour too. I mean look at the upper intakes of a lot of engines, they aren't exactly clean and that's normal. The stuff that usually dirties the throttle body comes from the engine side, not the intake side. While fuel type may make some difference in TB "gum up" problems, I would think that oil type is a little more important here.


Kind of vague statement, no? Most engines in the last decade or so are multiport designs where there's one injector per cylinder and the injectors spray into the intake runners just above the head--the fuel mixes with the air in the intake manifold and then goes in the engine when the respective intake valve opens. With direct injection engines (which are becoming more common these days but certainly don't consitutute the majority of engines) then the injectors deliver the fuel directly into the head/combustion chamber.
.....
.
I sure hope that there is no dirt "from the engine side" that is in the intakes system with the exception of some gasses from the EGR.
The injectors should be spraying onto the intake valve if it is not direct injection. There should be no fuel at or near the the throttle valve or in the intake "runners".

[l69norm]

You know, and I am not saying you are wrong by any means because you have pictures, but I have taken quite a few apart though and have never seen one this dirty or gummed up. I strongly suspect that this is an extreme example and probably had some other major problem (egr failure, engine exhaust etc) to cause this. There would have been significant driveability issues for a quite a while if this was found. This is in no way typical or usual.

I think that level of buildup is representative of a car that gone 100,000 KM without a throttle body cleaning.

Just as a counterpoint, this car had it's TB cleaned about 1 month ago. This buildup occurred over just 35 days:

Wet tar like mixture of carbon and oil:
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee149/l69norm/TB005.jpg

Arrow shows that carbon build up is only on the inside of TB. The outside remains clean. The circle shows where I rubbed my finger. The inside of the blade is completely covered with carbon:
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee149/l69norm/TB006.jpg

Imagine what this will look like in 2 years?

Anyway, getting back to the OP's original question. The strength of the additive for the gas tank is going to be pretty low once it's mixed in with gasoline in the tank. On the other hand, a pro grade cleaning system uses a separate big can of pressurized concentrated solvent connected directly into the engine's fuel rail.

I think regularly using any brand name gas probably has a greater effect than any gas tank additive ever could.

[jed]

Over 300,000 kms. Same fuel filter. Not supposed to be changed on some cars. Made to last the life of the car. I guess the filtere is designed with enough surface area to last much longer than filters of the past.

Sorry dude - LOL!

You're fortunate. Over 13yrs working at a dealership, I can't tell you how many cars/trucks of all models, came in on the hook, can't blow through the fuel filter its so plugged, and thus, toasted the fuel pump.

Please don't post stuff like this on the forums, some people will actually believe you.

[ivica5683]

Sorry dude - LOL!

You're fortunate. Over 13yrs working at a dealership, I can't tell you how many cars/trucks of all models, came in on the hook, can't blow through the fuel filter its so plugged, and thus, toasted the fuel pump.

Please don't post stuff like this on the forums, some people will actually believe you.


I think you should ask around. Depending on the style of filter and where it is, on a Honda Accord 98, the filter is in the tank. It has a large filter that fits on the intake. I asked the Honda Dealer several times when it should be replaced they clearly stated that it doesn't need to be done on that style of filter. Not trying to fool anyone, I'm just glad that I didn't have to do it. I'm on several Honda Forums and owners are quite aware of this. Again I have nothing to gain by stating this. I've also owned several cars with inlinf filters including Honda Prelude's that needed a filter change about every 40K. I drove that car to 375K.

[Pete_Coach]

Sorry dude - LOL!

You're fortunate. Over 13yrs working at a dealership, I can't tell you how many cars/trucks of all models, came in on the hook, can't blow through the fuel filter its so plugged, and thus, toasted the fuel pump.

Please don't post stuff like this on the forums, some people will actually believe you.

Well, my 2001 Civic did not have a replaceable filter and I think that Honda's do not have them anymore. It was in the tank as part of the fuel pump. As I said earlier, if the car has a filter that needs to be changed, it will indicate that in the owners manual maintenance requirements. That is where you get the correct information for your vehicle type. Don't deride the guy till you know what he has.
No all cars have these filters. Maybe the dealerships you have worked in had vehicles that had replaceable filters but you cannot make a broad statement like that.

[craftsman]

Well, my 2001 Civic did not have a replaceable filter and I think that Honda's do not have them anymore. It was in the tank as part of the fuel pump. As I said earlier, if the car has a filter that needs to be changed, it will indicate that in the owners manual maintenance requirements. That is where you get the correct information for your vehicle type. Don't deride the guy till you know what he has.
No all cars have these filters. Maybe the dealerships you have worked in had vehicles that had replaceable filters but you cannot make a broad statement like that.

I think a fair statement would be "Follow your owner's manual for the proper maintenance interval. If you do not follow the recommended maintenance interval, then don't be surprised when some related component breaks."

[jed]

Well, my 2001 Civic did not have a replaceable filter and I think that Honda's do not have them anymore. It was in the tank as part of the fuel pump. As I said earlier, if the car has a filter that needs to be changed, it will indicate that in the owners manual maintenance requirements. That is where you get the correct information for your vehicle type. Don't deride the guy till you know what he has.
No all cars have these filters. Maybe the dealerships you have worked in had vehicles that had replaceable filters but you cannot make a broad statement like that.

You're right - I was in a domestics, so had no idea on maintenance requirements on all imports, except that timing belts needed to be changed. For the rest, I ASSUMED (never assume) that all cars would have fuel filters. All maintenance should be checked into by perusing the owners manual.

For the record, I've also owned about 18 cars/trucks, and they've all had fuel filters. I assumed.

Not to get in a pi$$ing match, but even a Civic has a fuel filter, it still has to be filtering and will eventually get plugged, depending on fuel, etc. Perhaps Lifetime fuel filter is like lifetime spark plugs - they last longer but will still need to be changed.

But I stand by my statement that depending upon the fuel your are getting, water in tank, deritus, etc, you can be overworking your fuel pump by not changing a fuel filter annually, for domestics at least. Change a 15 dollar fuel filter, or a 3 to 700 dollar fuel pump?