VERY low energy efficent home.. geothermal?

[Vladimir]

Hello,
A month ago my father got a company to come in and do an ecoENERGY report on our house.
We just got the report back last week. The guy said he has never ever seen a house score as low as ours... we got 21%
This house is over 150 years old, and almost zero renovations have been done on it since it was built, now my dad is serious on getting things done to the house.
The report said there was 4 major problem areas
1. Basement has 0 insulation
2. Attic has 0 insulation
3. Wood stove should be replaced with an energy efficient wood stove.
4. Oil furnace should be replaced with an energy efficient furnace.
Surprisingly replacing windows would do very little.

Anyways he for sure is going to insulate the basement and attic, and may think about the wood stove upgrade, but probably won't do the furnace.
The report says if we do all the recommended upgrades, the house should go to 55% efficiency.

Another thing interesting about the report was that the average house will have all the air exchanged with outside air every 2.5 hours. His house is doing it every 7 minutes....... wow. Now we know why it was so freezing cold this winter.

Anyways, my father is also thinking about installing geothermal heating. He lives on a 100 acre farm, so space is obviously not an issue. But how great is it really? He did meet with the installer and the guy said that we shouldn't expect it to heat our house 100% and we will still need to burn oil/wood in December, Jan, and Feb, but the rest of the months it should be able to sustain itself.... What are your guys thoughts on it? We both are doing research since it is obviously a huge investment but with the $7000 rebate right now, and with the rising cost of oil, my father thinks it is worth doing combined with the insulation.

[TrevorK]

From what I have researched getting geothermal for the sole purpose of heating isn't typically the best use of money. It has a very long payback period.

I would imagine it would become more attractive if you were a AC user in the summertime and used the geothermal for that as well, as that would potentially save a large amount of electricity (depending on your usage). However, in most "energy conscious" people I'm sure this would be low, since most wouldn't really crank the AC.



That being said, I've never compared the cost of retrofitting a house with natural gas (from oil) and installing geothermal. I would really think you need to have a detailed cost comparision of the two from people who install them. If you find you're still needing a secondary source of heating with the geothermal that may drive the cost too high, as you are now maintaining two systems.

[Vladimir]

well one is a wood stove so there isn't too much maintenance besides cutting down some trees. The furnace needs to be kept to since that is powering our hot water heater.
Natural Gas line is impossible since the closest gas is (I believe) a couple kilometers down the road.
And there is no AC in the house

We know someone who just finished getting one installed a month ago, he said they think it will pay for itself in years.. altho I think that would be optimistic.

[mjl_toronto]

I have a friend who did several energy efficient renovations to his home in various phases, including going geothermal. He discovered the greatest impact on energy efficiency (measured by return per cost) was windows (by far) and then insulation.

The geothermal did have an impact but not in terms of savings. He calculated it would take over 25 years before his initial investment pays itself off (based on a the 'today' rate he used at the time). Of course, his motive for going geothermal wasn't financial so he didn't mind.

I'm surprised the company suggested the windows would have very little impact in improving your efficiency. Were they renovated recently or are they 150 years old too?

[winks1]

I'd put the bulk of his cash into insulation... min R40 in the attic, make sure that all walls (basement included) are at least R24, eliminate drafts, SEAL IT UP good:D. Get through next winter and evaluate further. Wait out the geo fad...since the geo grants, Geo co.s are gouging consumers because they can...everyone is on the badwagon. What these guys get away with is borderline criminal... $10K systems selling for over $35K:mad: After all is said and done MPAC comes in and reasses your property to get their cut of the pie. Goverment grant that keeps on giving....back to the goverment:D
Seal up the house and wait a few years.. solar heat is the way to go IMO, and since NA is a few years behind the rest of the world, we're SOL :rolleyes:

[hempopotamus]

As others have mentioned the Geothermal option's payback is too long. You can go with a dual fuel system, Gas Furnace & Heat Pump, which can give you some more bang for your buck.

[mitboi]

look for triple layer glazed windows with argon or krypton gas instead of air in between the glazings and with insulated frames.

on an individual level, we look at the payback money wise, but renovation of the home helps to reduce the overall energy consumption and CO2 emissions/global warming issues. so go for it!

[Vladimir]

I'm surprised the company suggested the windows would have very little impact in improving your efficiency. Were they renovated recently or are they 150 years old too?

Well the report has a list of all things that should be done, and then gives a rating beside it how much it would improve the efficiency.. Insulating the attic and the basement were each 14% improvement.
My parents did replace a bunch of windows a while ago actually. The report said they have 48 windows in the house, and 12 of them should be replaced, but it said replacing the 12 windows would only make a 0.2% improvement.




My dad partly wants to do the geothermal heating on the financial aspect, but he also wants to do it because he is getting tired of cutting so much wood.
My mom said they spent $2000 last year on heating oil, plus they went through tons of wood. And they were still cold in the house. So he wants to reduce oil bill, and reduce the amount of wood he cuts, as well as making the house warmer in the winter.

Although I agree, maybe it would be more wise doing all the other upgrades first, wait this winter, see how it goes, then reevaluate next year.

[TrevorK]

My dad partly wants to do the geothermal heating on the financial aspect, but he also wants to do it because he is getting tired of cutting so much wood.
My mom said they spent $2000 last year on heating oil, plus they went through tons of wood. And they were still cold in the house. So he wants to reduce oil bill, and reduce the amount of wood he cuts, as well as making the house warmer in the winter.

Although I agree, maybe it would be more wise doing all the other upgrades first, wait this winter, see how it goes, then reevaluate next year.

I believe the payback on geothermal heating is much greater in areas that do not have access to natural gas, which is the most popular/efficient method of heating within the city. Most of us are comparing it to gas, or having gas available, which is not going to help you at all.

Your situation will be different than most, and you'll need to do the legwork to determine if it's worth it.

[skategoat]

I have done a lot of research on geothermal and I believe the payback numbers are closer to 7 years for those using furnace oil or propane. And this is using current fuel rates which are at historical lows. Plus, there are many non-financial benefits:

- carbon emission reduction equal to 3-4 cars.
- no combustion, therefore no carbon monoxide to worry about.
- no flammable fuel products
- stable pricing - no worries about skyrocketing fossil fuel prices.
- both heating and cooling from the system
- no bulky, noisy A/C unit
- free domestic hot water in the summer, approximately 40% contribution to hot water heating in the winter.

One of the posters is correct, a properly sized geothermal system will not heat the home 100%. To do so would mean an oversized unit that will not be working to top efficiency. A knowledgeable designer will size your system to handle 90% of your heating. During the very cold days, there is an electric heater in the plenum that kicks in to give you a boost of heat. You don't need your wood or oil furnace to give you this supplemental heat.

One problem is that there are ton of new installers in the business with the recent surge in interest. Most do not have the experience necessary to design these systems. Therefore, they often just guess. This leads to big problems with under or oversized bore fields (the pipes under the ground). These problems lead to big expenses in the future.

Vladimir, if you want more info, PM me. I have written way too long a post already.

[nornet]

Just to add to skegoats' post, if you really want to delve into geothermal, go to the ASHRAE website and check out the books and papers available. http://www.ashrae.com

These are not cheap but then neither is a geothermal system. Knowing which questions to ask perspective installation companies can mean the difference between success and failure.

[craftsman]

The report said they have 48 windows in the house, and 12 of them should be replaced, but it said replacing the 12 windows would only make a 0.2% improvement.


You have to remember that windows have the poorest insulating value when compared with real insulation. If you look at the chart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulated_glazing) you will see that a single glazed window has an insulating value of 0.16 m2K/W versus a triple glaze window has a value of 1 m2K/W. That's pretty good until you compare it to a 2x6 wall with R-19 insulation - 2.06 m2K/W. I would hazard to say a wall is much cheaper to do that a triple glazed window and you get twice the insulating value. In addition, the total area which windows take up in a standard house is small compared to how much area the exterior walls take up.

While you are insulating, plug up all of the holes and do a lot of caulking to cut down on drafts. You will find a huge difference in the comfort level once the drafts are taken care of.

[john_ertw]

You have to do all of your insulating, stoping draft leaks, and windows before you size a new heating system (geothermal or oil based furnace). The reason is that you will require a much smaller amount of heat from your new heater after the other renos which will reduce the cost of the system slightly and allow you to put in a properly sized system that will increase your comfort.

With regards to windows, I think your report gives them such a small improvement opportunity becuase the air leakage and current insulation is so poor. If your house was already insulated, you would have received a better improvement from changing the windows.

[Vladimir]

thanks for all the info, my father is still researching it, but it sounds like he will most likely go with geothermal. Once my dad has his mind set on something he does it, if something doesn't interest him you never hear of it again.
He has talked to a few different people, and got quotes from different companies, the quotes are ranging from $19k-24k

Thank you for your post skategoat I agree that payback is going to be a lot faster with an oil furnace. When my grandfather first installed the oil furnace they said they were paying about 50 cents a gallon, last year my parents were paying over $1 a litre, and prices are only going to continue to rise. And like I said previously, he is also getting tired and a little to old to cut so much wood so having that as a intangible benefit also helps his decision. Every company said straight up that there will be no way it can heat the house 100% even getting all the insulation done, just due to the size of the house, but it would heat at least 70%+. So given 2 grand burned in oil last year, would save at least 1.5k/year

[messerchmidt]

for oil furnaces and electric heating replacements, geothermal is the best. $$ up front but cost savings wise, in under 10 years it is paid. Works as an A/C system and hot water heater as well.

I would insulate the house as well in your position

[synaptech]

I know most people go right for the windows, but a 150 year old home will have far more heat loss issues than the windows -- plus changing original wood with plastic is a crime. Tighten the envelope and put the money into the geothermal and/or high efficiency furnace. Also, is your house double brick? If so, then I would argue that gutting lathe and plaster to insulate would be foolish. Seal up the cracks with a case of caulk and if you really want to insulate then investigate having it blown into your walls. The attic insulation can't be avoided, but perhaps it could also be blown in.

Odds are you can't make it as efficient as newer homes, but spend the money on the areas that will offer the most return on investment and quality of life. At this point, even with new windows, you will still be cold and cutting wood. I would invest in the geo/furnace first, then insulate the attic, then caulk.

Also be aware that isulating the headers in the basement may not be apprived for your house. I have to look that link up.

[ecobuilder]

Short response:

Bsmt. should be insulated, preferably and properly with rigid foam.

Attic insulated to R50 with blown in cellulose if possible.

Windows are a good choice to do if properly planned. i.e. frame material (fibreglass), triple glazing if possible and, proper placement of coatings (low e) and fill (argon or krypton gas).

House needs to be sealed up tight.

There are good efficient wood pellet stoves available if a wood burner is still wanted.

Geothermal is an excellent system if properly planned. This is extremely important. Not just the size and condition of house but the ground as well. Is there gravel/rock/voids/water below the surface?

HE furnaces seem to be the defacto standard when upgrading a heating system and they are good; reliable, common thus easy to install, but there are better ways to go.

Geothermal combined with solar hot water(if sun is abundant) and an HRV would be an ideal system.

PM me if you would like more info.

Building eco-efficient homes for 14 years.

[Vladimir]

I know most people go right for the windows, but a 150 year old home will have far more heat loss issues than the windows -- plus changing original wood with plastic is a crime. Tighten the envelope and put the money into the geothermal and/or high efficiency furnace. Also, is your house double brick? If so, then I would argue that gutting lathe and plaster to insulate would be foolish. Seal up the cracks with a case of caulk and if you really want to insulate then investigate having it blown into your walls. The attic insulation can't be avoided, but perhaps it could also be blown in.


You are right, it is a double bricked. A guy came out last week to take a look around, he said most of the basement doesn't really need to be insulated because the wall is so thick. They said they would recommend putting some caulking or something along the top edges.
My parents did add on a kitchen to the house about 10 years ago, which meant expanding the basement, and he said the new part insulation has to be redone. He also said that if we do the geothermal, we could easily install heated floors into the kitchen.

My grandfather put in some insulation in the attic about 40 years ago it looks like some sort of wool type insulation thing.. forget what he called it.. but the guy said it would have been ok 30 years ago but this kind disintegrates after a while. He said he would put in (I believe) R48, the stuff in there right now would be equivalent to R16.


Anyways, my father signed the papers for the install on the weekend, so he is going through with it. He said for sure he is going to insulate the new part of the basement, as well as the attic, and probably replace a few windows. He won't bother replacing the furnace with a HE one until it is burnt out.


Geothermal is an excellent system if properly planned. This is extremely important. Not just the size and condition of house but the ground as well. Is there gravel/rock/voids/water below the surface?

Nope, but the soil has a lot of clay
And not sure if cellulose would be possible with the attic


Thanks everyone for the info. I passed a lot of it onto my father and he was grateful.