GST PST Harmonization

[barold]

does the GST PST harmonization have an impact on buying used cars either from a dealer or a private sale? I believe in a private sale, I would pay pst at the MOT when I register, but not GST - is the process still the same?

[CUVShopper]

under a HST, there would only be one tax, so no PST would apply.

[ctrueman82]

Uh no, if they harmonize the tax you are paying 13%. God buy a car now.

[Pete_Coach]

under a HST, there would only be one tax, so no PST would apply.

Very wrong. Under HST, there would no longer be a stand alone PST, it will be "harmonized" and be part of the HST so, yes, there will not be a tax on used cars and yes, the Province stands to gain a lot.
You never thought that by harmonizing the PST with the GST that we, the public would be gaining anything did you? Now the Province has a tax on everything.

[concou]

Province stands to gain a lot.


With regards to the PST on cars, the province has always collected this tax from dealer or private sales. With the new HST they will continue to collect this.

Here is the kicker.... The GST is now only being collected on Dealer sales, not private. When the HST goes into affect private sales will be charged the 5%
Gst that is now not charged on Private sales.

Mr. Harper found his way to have the province collect his 5% Gst on used cars by Mr.Maginty( spelling).

[Pete_Coach]

With regards to the PST on cars, the province has always collected this tax from dealer or private sales. With the new HST they will continue to collect this.

Here is the kicker.... The GST is now only being collected on Dealer sales, not private. When the HST goes into affect private sales will be charged the 5%
Gst that is now not charged on Private sales.

Mr. Harper found his way to have the province collect his 5% Gst on used cars by Mr.Maginty( spelling).

Mr McGuinty has found his way to get his money from the following things that were exempt till now:

* food products (except for candies, confections, snack foods and soft drinks)
* prepared foods sold by an eating establishment for $4 or less
* children's clothing (including diapers)
* footwear costing $30 or less
* feminine hygiene products
* books, newspapers, bulletins
* drugs and medicine sold under a doctor's prescription
* goods designed solely for people with physical disabilities.
* goods purchased for resale
* production machinery and equipment purchased for the use of a qualifying manufacturer
* hospital equipment purchased by a qualifiying hospital
* goods incorporated into goods for resale.
* telecommunication services (telephone, cable, pay television)
* accommodation for less than one month (hotels, motels, bed and breakfasts)
* labour provided to install, assemble, dismantle, adjust, repair or maintain tangible personal property and labour provided to install, configure, modify or upgrade a computer program
* contracts for the service, maintenance or warranty of TPP, including a computer program
* commercial parking.
* dry cleaning
* carpet and upholstery cleaning
* personal services, such as hair styling, barbering, and beauty treatments
* medical and health services
* veterinary care
* car washing and engine shampooing
* labour to install or repair real property or fixtures.

[concou]

Ya .....but lets not forget the $300.00 (individual) and $1,000.00(family) cheques he is giving us.

That should go a long way to offset the added taxes. What a joke...!!!

[ispiratica]

Mr McGuinty has found his way to get his money from the following things that were exempt till now:

* children's clothing (including diapers)
* children's footwear
* feminine hygiene products
* telecommunication services (telephone, cable, pay television)

These items are still exempt for the cause of families that protested. However the last item, telecom, I do believe we're already paying PST+GST.

Bell seemingly only charges me 9% tax though. Its odd but thats how much total tax I pay on Internet and TV.

McGuinty says this will help business but which business. Small or large? Comepete with whom? The telecom giants don't compete, they simple plunder and burn consumers worse each year.

I can't imagine making private used cars cost 5% more will even out the odds of the used car market. Its only going to hurt private sellers and its already tough enough to trust most seedy dealerships rather than most honest private sellers.

I like the Libs but on the provincial level I'd vote Tory next time. I'm going to be buying a home next year but Im putting it off till the next election. That SHOULD have been exempt. Its not fair to new buyers and its almost a necessity in life here to buy and own a home especially when most good homes cost more than $500k.

I hope the Tories reverse this HST come 2012+.

[angel_wing0]

does the GST PST harmonization have an impact on buying used cars either from a dealer or a private sale? I believe in a private sale, I would pay pst at the MOT when I register, but not GST - is the process still the same?

i think u'll have to pay the full 13% by then...which will suck out a HUGE benefit from buying a private used car.

[z24driver1986]

from what I heard in the newspaper, things like books etc, will still be exempt from the PST, u will only have to pay 5% for GST

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/english/budget/ontariobudgets/2009/nr.html

This whole thing is still ********, if taxes were exempt on the stuff I wouldn't have a problem with HST but I still do. I emailed my MP, he agrees with me... Please email your MP about it too.

[Carzzz]

Tax discourages buyers, but it is a type of government income!
McGunity is really ruined the Ontario economy...
On the next election, we all know there are better candidates out there!
People forgot to metion, houses over $500,000 also applicable to HST!

Expect More $ on used private sale!

[magnodrome]

just a comment, they shouldnt have reduce GST at start....bad political move and harmonize tax just plain stupid - that will mean more people from the Ontario government will lose their jobs (if i understand correctly, provinces with harmonize tax does not have its own tax department - that means more layoffs).

[confused student]

Tax discourages buyers, but it is a type of government income!
McGunity is really ruined the Ontario economy...
On the next election, we all know there are better candidates out there!
People forgot to metion, houses over $500,000 also applicable to HST!

Expect More $ on used private sale!
People such as Frank de Jong

[Arcturus]

People such as Frank de Jong

Frank used to be my teacher, and he doesn't drive a car, rides his bike everywhere. But I have the feeling that he would introduce a carbon tax instead.

[adam west]

i think u'll have to pay the full 13% by then...which will suck out a HUGE benefit from buying a private used car.

Very true. I'm in BC and rumours abound that they want to do the same thing (harmonized tax). It's just going to force more people to grab a car south of the boarder.

Politicians are REALLY bad at economics.

[yavuzmc]

Mr McGuinty has found his way to get his money from the following things that were exempt till now:

* food products (except for candies, confections, snack foods and soft drinks)
...


soo when this gst, pst harmonization be in effect?

[mr_raider]

Very true. I'm in BC and rumours abound that they want to do the same thing (harmonized tax). It's just going to force more people to grab a car south of the boarder.

Politicians are REALLY bad at economics.

It's a disease. It's spreading. Even Quebec wants to do it. Figures the only time Quebec cooperates with the federal gub'ment is when it's time to tax it's poor citizens.

[wong8egg]

I am not sure if anyone else would agree with, but I find taxing on used car is BS anyways.

The car is taxes in FULL when it is purchase new, and then the car get tax again with each ownership transfer. At the end, a car can get taxes more than 13% of its original value.

[barold]

Not to beat a dead horse, but it seems kinda counter intuitive - for example when I buy a brand new house, I pay GST on the house. When I buy a resale house, I pay gst on the transaction fees but not on the house itself again.

So with cars, I would keep paying PST each time around? We currently do not pay GST over and over on the value of the car, right?

[ES_Revenge]

Mr McGuinty has found his way to get his money from the following things that were exempt till now:

Yes it works both ways for these sons of b!tches! :mad: Province gets tax money on things that were previously not PST-ed; Feds get tax money on things that were previously not GST-able.

However a few things on your list are, as pointed out by someone else, still exempt. I'm sure glad children's clothing is on that list of still exempted stuff :)

So with cars, I would keep paying PST each time around? We currently do not pay GST over and over on the value of the car, right?
Yeah my dad used to get all up in arms about this. Not like he ever really bought any used cars, lol, but he thought it was ridiculous. Yep, it senses no make but that's the way it is. And now it will be the soon it will be the same for GST which was previously only paid on dealer sales, not private sales. It's ********, just like paying tax on tax, but that's just the "Canadian Way" :rolleyes:

[CatDog]

is the harmonization for sure?

[ferkel]

why aren't people protesting against all these insane tax increases?
People in Thailand are going crazy protesting against the government today for a lot less.

[McGregor]

With regards to the PST on cars, the province has always collected this tax from dealer or private sales. With the new HST they will continue to collect this.

Here is the kicker.... The GST is now only being collected on Dealer sales, not private. When the HST goes into affect private sales will be charged the 5%
Gst that is now not charged on Private sales.

Mr. Harper found his way to have the province collect his 5% Gst on used cars by Mr.Maginty( spelling).

Should verify your sources (and should also never rely on them)!

There will be no GST on private sales of cars (including no "5%" federal component of the HST). However, has some harmonized provinces (yes, there are already "harmonized provinces" - NB NS, NF&L) a provincial tax MIGHT continue to be levied at the time of registering the vehicule.

[McGregor]

It's a disease. It's spreading. Even Quebec wants to do it. Figures the only time Quebec cooperates with the federal gub'ment is when it's time to tax it's poor citizens.

FYI: Quebec did it more than fifteen years ago!!!!!!

[McGregor]

Very true. I'm in BC and rumours abound that they want to do the same thing (harmonized tax). It's just going to force more people to grab a car south of the boarder.

Politicians are REALLY bad at economics.


Would be really good advice but for the fact that they would still pay the same amount of taxes at the border!!! When you're good at economics, you replace old inefficient sales tax systems by a value-added tax system (referred to as GST/HST in Canada...).

See video at the bottom of this page:

http://www.gst.gov.bz/news.html

[ac328]

Ontario has proposed to impose a separate tax on private sales of used cars once the HST is implemented:

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/english/budget/ontariobudgets/2009/chpt3.html#c3_salestax


So your 8% tax will continue as it always has on used car sales at the time of transfer of ownership. I agree it's stupid policy since HST is supposed to parallel the GST rules (technically this tax will not be HST but a used car tax).

The new HST is proposed to begin in July 2010 so the 8% used car tax should kick in at that time. In practice nothing will change for sales of used cars in ON.

If you don't like it move to Alberta (like I did).

[mr_raider]

FYI: Quebec did it more than fifteen years ago!!!!!!

Quebec doesn't have an HST.

[McGregor]

Quebec doesn't have an HST.

They have a value-added tax under their own legislation which mirrors the GST (very few differences). If they were to "harmonize" in the sense of having an HST under federal legislation (what Ontario will be doing) instead of adding a "provincial component" on their own, no one in Quebec would see the difference (except on some mail purchases from other provinces - technically now required to "self-assess" the QST on these purchases). Make it difficult to understand your comment: "figures the only time Quebec cooperates with the federal gub'ment is when it's time to tax it's poor citizens". The poor citizens are already tax as if it was an HST under federal legislation.

Revenu Quebec administer both the GST and QST in Quebec.

"ENTENTE RELATIVE À l'ADMINISTRATION PAR LE QUÉBEC DE LA PARTIE IX DE LA LOI SUR LA TAXE D'ACCISE (L.R.C. (1985), ch. E-15) CONCERNANT LA TAXE SUR LES PRODUITS ET SERVICES

ENTRE LE GOUVERNEMENT DU CANADA, REPRESENTÉ PAR LE MINISTRE DU REVENU NATIONAL (ci-après désigné «Canada»)

ET

LE GOUVERNEMENT DU QUÉBEC, REPRÉSENTÉ PAR LE MINISTRE DU REVENU ET LE MINISTRE DÉLÉGUÉ AUX AFFAIRES INTERGOUVERNEMENTALES CANADIENNES (ci-après désigné «Québec»)

(...)

ATTENDU QUE dans le but de rendre l'assiette des taxes québécoises à la consommation (ci-après désignées «TVQ») substantiellement comparable à la TPS, l'Assemblée nationale du Québec a adopté la Loi modifiant la Loi concernant l'impôt sur la vente en détail et d'autres dispositions législatives d'ordre fiscal (L.Q., 1990, c. 60) qui vise à harmoniser cette assiette à l'égard des biens meubles et, en ce qui a trait à l'harmonisation de celle-ci à l'égard des biens immeubles et des services, le Québec entend recommander à l'Assemblée nationale l'adoption de nouvelles mesures législatives pour le 1er janvier 1992;"

[controlyar]

Double taxing is completely illogical and seems criminal to me. If this whole HST shift is to eliminate "inefficiency" then the tax on used vehicles should also be included at it is blatant double dipping the consumer.

Simple example @ 13% tax rate (used car dealer rate)

Selling Price Tax Collected
Initial Sale 2010 $30,000 $3,900
Resell 2 2013 $20,000 $2,600
Resell 3 2015 $15,000 $1,950
Resell 4 2017 $11,000 $1,430
Resell 5 2020 $6,000 $780
Final Sale 2023 $2,000 $260

Basically the government collects $10,920 of tax over the life of the vehicle instead of the $3,900 they should reasonably be collecting - a delta of $7,020 more in their pockets. Just imagine the government double dipped on resale homes whose value actually appreciates over time !!!

This would likely eliminate $100M+ of tax revenue in Ontario and would not go over very well with the government.

Here is a link from the Saskatchewan party addressing this matter - http://www.saskparty.com/used_cars.html

Is there a Liberal MP I could write who may actually listen to a logical argument and potentially support it ?

[mr_raider]

They have a value-added tax under their own legislation which mirrors the GST (very few differences). If they were to "harmonize" in the sense of having an HST under federal legislation (what Ontario will be doing) instead of adding a "provincial component" on their own, no one in Quebec would see the difference (except on some mail purchases from other provinces - technically now required to "self-assess" the QST on these purchases). Make it difficult to understand your comment: "figures the only time Quebec cooperates with the federal gub'ment is when it's time to tax it's poor citizens". The poor citizens are already tax as if it was an HST under federal legislation.


The same argument applies as in Ontario. Some things are currently GST exempt (such as private sales of used cars) and other things are TVQ exempt (printed books). I assume they will all get taxed after the HST comes in effect.

[wong8egg]

Double taxing is completely illogical and seems criminal to me. If this whole HST shift is to eliminate "inefficiency" then the tax on used vehicles should also be included at it is blatant double dipping the consumer.

Simple example @ 13% tax rate (used car dealer rate)

Selling Price Tax Collected
Initial Sale 2010 $30,000 $3,900
Resell 2 2013 $20,000 $2,600
Resell 3 2015 $15,000 $1,950
Resell 4 2017 $11,000 $1,430
Resell 5 2020 $6,000 $780
Final Sale 2023 $2,000 $260

Basically the government collects $10,920 of tax over the life of the vehicle instead of the $3,900 they should reasonably be collecting - a delta of $7,020 more in their pockets. Just imagine the government double dipped on resale homes whose value actually appreciates over time !!!

This would likely eliminate $100M+ of tax revenue in Ontario and would not go over very well with the government.

Here is a link from the Saskatchewan party addressing this matter - http://www.saskparty.com/used_cars.html

Is there a Liberal MP I could write who may actually listen to a logical argument and potentially support it ?

This is exactly what I am trying to say. Infinite taxing on a used vehicle! :mad:
It is robbery in my opinion. They might say it is an act to promote greener Ontario, but meanwhile, I don't see how our government is providing much convenience public transit to substitute cars.

For the HST part, all the new exempts and rebate it just as confusing as right now, when it suppose to be simplified?? :confused:

[McGregor]

The same argument applies as in Ontario. Some things are currently GST exempt (such as private sales of used cars) and other things are TVQ exempt (printed books). I assume they will all get taxed after the HST comes in effect.

What is GST exempt will continue to be either GST or HST exempt. Whatever is not in the GST base will not be in the HST base (you can take a look at the situation in the three already harmonized provinces).

However, as for used cars, provinces may decide to continue to levy a separate provincial tax on certain items.

With respect to some items that are QST (TVQ) exempt, the same result will be achieved in Ontario with "point-of-sale rebates" of the provincial component (8%) of the HST (rebates for books; children’s apparel, car seats, diapers and hygiene products).

[camber]

8% added tax on gas! Woo hoo!

Seriously, write your MPP...

[mgronqui]

Here's an article that sheds some light on the GST/PST Harmonization http://tinyurl.com/c7bdsx

[vipt2000]

Here's an article that sheds some light on the GST/PST Harmonization http://tinyurl.com/c7bdsx

quote from the article:

Wait…Consumers Get a Tax Relief!

Ontario has promised to provide tax relief as a result of this new tax to consumers. This benefits includes the following:

Cash payments of up to $1,000 in 2010 and 2011 for families earning less than $160,000 a year.
A new permanent $260 refundable sales tax credit for low to middle-income adults and children.
An enhanced refundable property tax credit for low and middle-income homeowners and tenants.
New homes under $400,000 would be exempt from the new blended tax.
$1.1 Billion in personal income tax cuts.



So what amount is consider middle-income? You must really read the fine print.

Also, we will get cash payments up to $1,000. Again, the key word here is 'up to $1,000'

Every political party are shiet. The federal tory promises the Home renovation credit but it is only for amount over and above $1,000. Translation: if you spend exactly $1,000 the you get nothing. if you spend 1,100 then you get back $15 in nonfundable tax credit. You get the message. Link:
http://www.fin.gc.ca/act/hrtc-cird/hrtc-cird-eng.asp

Not to get off topic but all political parties are crap. As an Ontarian, I don't like the provincial Liberal (they are consistently lied) and can't stand the federal Tory (the are really screwed up with the lower of GST and have to make up the $$$ somewhere else). and don't let me start with the damn ottawa municipal government (my property tax has increased substantially and reduce services since amalgamation of city of ottawa)

I like how Alberta runs: send cheques to household when economy doing well and don't send any $$$ if they don't have any surplus

Sorry for rants...

[Carzzz]

IMO, the government is going to charge more than what it is going to give you back!

[deal_with_singh]

in my opinion taking taxes is like the government stealing your hard earned money out of your pockets sitting on their ass doing nothing. its understandable that they might need some tax but 13% is basically stealing....look at usa they have 1 state tax which is 4% in most places and even 0 in others as high as 8.75% in ny....atleast we all learned that voting for liberals is just a depressing moment....liberals introduced gst...and now liberals introduce hst....what is it next? oh wait...there was carbon tax....no **** they lost