Anyone else sick of japanese/german imports? [Archive]

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gei

Apr 8th, 2009, 06:54 PM

Quiggie

Apr 8th, 2009, 07:05 PM

There's some interesting new stuff coming on the import side as well, eg Genesis coupe, Nissan GTR, Lexus IS-F.

I've never been a big fan of retro cars, I thought the 05 Mustang was a big step down from the previous generation. The 2010 Camaro however does look pretty good I have to admit.

And some of the "domestics" are not really that domestic, ie the Pontiac G8 is mostly Australian-designed, the Saturn Astra is German, etc.

I only wish Canada had our own car company like Australia does.

number84

Apr 8th, 2009, 07:16 PM

i'm in my early 30's and still prefer the japanese/german imports over american. just don't find any of them that appealing....but that's just me.

CaptSmethwick

Apr 8th, 2009, 07:28 PM

mazdubb

Apr 8th, 2009, 07:32 PM

My initial reaction to pictures of the vehicles you posted above is that they are kind of cool. However the more I look at them, the more I realize that I couldn't live with them on a day to day basis. The interiors of the retro styled muscle cars are a huge let down. I just couldn't sit behind the wheel every day with those junky cockpits.

The caddy, well it's interior is nice, no complaints there. The exterior though, not so much. At first glance it looks cool. It almost feels like they did too much though. It's pretty garish. Also, it looks a lot like a VW corrado to me.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z306/AllAboutThe6/Corrado/100_4526.jpg?t=1239233489

MP3_SKY

Apr 8th, 2009, 07:47 PM

No, i think Jap/German are still better quality than the Domestic, Even Hyundai is caughing up.

New Mustang, Camaro has a better style, but I think it still a personal taste and they are thirsty on gas like all the time.

gordholio

Apr 8th, 2009, 07:47 PM

Just wait a couple of years when the gas price goes through the roof again. A 2 year old Camaro will be really cheap.

arek

Apr 8th, 2009, 07:57 PM

Yes you right - german and japanese are so boring - you just drive and drive and drive and drive. Atleast with american you in the shop every week.

GoiNGPoSTaL

Apr 8th, 2009, 08:06 PM

I think the older CTS-V looks better but that's just me. But it took what a decade for the American's to even get bringing back their own retro line up (Impala, Daytona trim, Monte Carlo, T-Bird, etc) to drum up past glories in hopes of a sale right and it's now probably too late.

sixer

Apr 8th, 2009, 08:13 PM

(This post has nothing to do with the economy or anything btw)

For most of my life I've driven imports (german and japanese)... but lately I find pretty much all of them incredibly boring.

For some strange reason the cars that really appeal to me these days are all american. I'm talking about the new camaro, new challenger... cts-v... etc etc.

Maybe it's just me... or maybe imports have just been played out in general. All my friends have g35s and bmws... i like to be different. And I have a feeling my next car is gonna be one of these new-retro american muscle cars. Anyone else feeling the same way?

I'm not particularly old (late 20s), but I have a feeling that some of these cars wouldn't appeal to some of the kids on this board cause they weren't around at all during the muscle car era....

+1

I hear you man and totally agree.

I hope Ford makes the Giugiaro Mustang

http://www.muscularmustangs.com/gallery/albums/uploads017/giugiaromustang013.jpg

http://www.muscularmustangs.com/gallery/albums/uploads017/giugiaro_ford_mustang_concept_007.jpg

http://www.muscularmustangs.com/gallery/albums/uploads017/giugiaromustang015.jpg

KorruptioN

Apr 8th, 2009, 09:26 PM

New Mustang, Camaro has a better style, but I think it still a personal taste and they are thirsty on gas like all the time.

People really need to get off this uninformed stereotype.

trixR4kids

Apr 8th, 2009, 09:37 PM

grab an American muscle car so you can step on it... and stop at a red light 2 seconds later. lol

Hood_Rep

Apr 8th, 2009, 09:46 PM

(This post has nothing to do with the economy or anything btw)

wrong. these specimens are the very reason the big three are going bankrupt and dragging others in the economic downturn.

sienna owner

Apr 8th, 2009, 10:00 PM

Yes you right - german and japanese are so boring - you just drive and drive and drive and drive. Atleast with american you in the shop every week.

hahahha

SkiD

Apr 8th, 2009, 10:07 PM

New Mustang, Camaro has a better style, but I think it still a personal taste and they are thirsty on gas like all the time.

Sorry, wanna try that again, I know which one I would want to drive

Chevrolet Camaro (3.6L V6 304 hp 273 lb.ft)
18 City / 29 Highway / 23 Combined

Honda Civic Si (2.0L I4 197 hp 139 lb.ft)
21 City / 29 Highway / 24 Combined

Volkswagen GTI (2.0L I4 200 hp 207 lb.ft)
21 City / 31 Highway / 25 Combined

Sepiraph

Apr 8th, 2009, 10:08 PM

No I really hate the American car design (exterior-wise), saved for the Vette and CTS. The last generation of Camero I like, but the new one I can't stand. Most of them just looks like boats on wheels and tend to handle like one too.

YeemJeem

Apr 8th, 2009, 10:09 PM

wrong. these specimens are the very reason the big three are going bankrupt and dragging others in the economic downturn.

Wrong? Talking about cars and the impact of the auto industry on the economy are 2 totally separate issues here.

sixer

Apr 8th, 2009, 10:12 PM

mazdubb

Apr 8th, 2009, 10:18 PM

http://www.carcomplaints.com/worst_vehicles.shtml

RobDek

Apr 8th, 2009, 10:20 PM

Wow...I've been driving VW's & Hondas for the past 21 years and have no desire to purchase anything from GM, Ford, or Chrysler anytime soon. Now and again I have thoughts of purchasing a domestic....a weekend rental quickly puts that idea to rest!!!!

sixer

Apr 8th, 2009, 10:22 PM

I love reading VW Jetta reviews, just so sad! Check out other years as well, same types of things.

http://www.carsurvey.org/reviews/volkswagen/jetta/2000/

mazdubb

Apr 8th, 2009, 10:27 PM

I love reading VW Jetta reviews, just so sad! Check out other years as well, same types of things.

http://www.carsurvey.org/reviews/volkswagen/jetta/2000/

Do you even notice that most of the bad reviews on these sites are from people who bought the cars when they were a few years old? Most likely off lease and beat to hell.

sixer

Apr 8th, 2009, 10:37 PM

Do you even notice that most of the bad reviews on these sites are from people who bought the cars when they were a few years old? Most likely off lease and beat to hell.

lol, I never knew 99% of VW Jetta's were off a lease.

Furthermore, this explains why there would be even 1 bad review of a North American car, since they are the #1 Car used by Fleets, Rental Agencies and so forth!

I understand your point, and that's why some American cars get bad wraps is because there abused, fluids never changed, and then sold by the masses in used car market.

But, back on topic in regards to your rebuttal on the VW Jetta, these are just bad cars, sorry.

rupert

Apr 9th, 2009, 12:00 AM

What about German muscle cars like a C63?

The only downside is:
Mercedes C63 (6.2L V8 451 hp 443 lb.ft)
NA City / NA Highway / NA Combined

thephenom

Apr 9th, 2009, 12:14 AM

Generally I'm not a big fan of domestic only because of styling and the way they drive, not because of depreciation or "reliability". Ok, I haven't driven too many, but the ones I have didn't look too great, nor do they drive too well.

With that said, if I was shopping for a new car today, I would go test driving the baby camaro (ie v6), only because it has a distinctive look to it. If it drives well, and feels nice, I won't hesitate to get one.

JohnB

Apr 9th, 2009, 12:28 AM

I looooooooooove Japanese cars, my next car is going to be a Lexus of some sort...most luxurious best built cars on the road...I just LOL when I think of the Ford/Chev/Chry offerings, LOL.

Seriously Id really like to get an Avalon. Ive seen some nice ones under $20,000 used...

JohnB

Apr 9th, 2009, 12:32 AM

The thing I do like about US cars is that they are big, smooth, and cheap...nothing else.

Local dealer had one-year old loaded Allures for $13,000 LOL thats less than a Yaris...Sure the Yaris/Civic/Corolla are better built cars, etc, etc, but they cant cruise on the highway, not as comfortable to cruise around in. Sometimes you just want a large cushy car.

rchong

Apr 9th, 2009, 12:46 AM

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Dodge_Grand_Caravan_SXT.jpg/800px-Dodge_Grand_Caravan_SXT.jpg

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6417/89caravan7it.jpg

awesome minivans! :cheesygri

ShadowVlican

Apr 9th, 2009, 01:35 AM

sick of japanese/german imports? never! sick of their fanboys? HELL YES.

No, i think Jap/German are still better quality than the Domestic, Even Hyundai is caughing up.

New Mustang, Camaro has a better style, but I think it still a personal taste and they are thirsty on gas like all the time.
People really need to get off this uninformed stereotype.
+1

grab an American muscle car so you can step on it... and stop at a red light 2 seconds later. lol
replace the italicized with any V6/+ car and voila! a useless opinion!

Yes you right - german and japanese are so boring - you just drive and drive and drive and drive. Atleast with american you in the shop every week.
see KorruptioN's quote above

I looooooooooove Japanese cars, my next car is going to be a Lexus of some sort...most luxurious best built cars on the road...I just LOL when I think of the Ford/Chev/Chry offerings, LOL.

Seriously Id really like to get an Avalon. Ive seen some nice ones under $20,000 used...
ever had a chance to look at the CTS?

AudiDude

Apr 9th, 2009, 01:37 AM

What about German muscle cars like a C63?

The only downside is:
Mercedes C63 (6.2L V8 451 hp 443 lb.ft)
NA City / NA Highway / NA Combined

The 70K price of admission isn't a downside as well??

bnammo

Apr 9th, 2009, 07:28 AM

I like german cars a lot.

urameatball

Apr 9th, 2009, 08:24 AM

Earlier this year, my first 'real' car purchase was to be a 2010 camaro.
But after going to 8 dealerships, 5 domestic, and 3 import... I've officially switched my preference to imports only. Domestic dealerships try to convince you their cars are made of gold and that you're lucky if you can buy at MSRP. Imports actually work hard to get your sale.

Bottom line:
Buying domestic at a dealership makes you wish there was an option to buy online to skip all the crap they feed you. Buying an import is MUCH more pleasant!

playmate

Apr 9th, 2009, 08:41 AM

i don't have anything against domestic vehicles, other than the fact they depreciate soooo quickly :(

jetway1212

Apr 9th, 2009, 08:41 AM

People really need to get off this uninformed stereotype.

And ppl really need to get off being dumb ignorant.

Look up gas consumption on those 2 vehicles and comeback with something on the table.

KorruptioN

Apr 9th, 2009, 08:45 AM

And ppl really need to get off being dumb ignorant.

Look up gas consumption on those 2 vehicles and comeback with something on the table.

Sorry, wanna try that again, I know which one I would want to drive

Chevrolet Camaro (3.6L V6 304 hp 273 lb.ft)
18 City / 29 Highway / 23 Combined

Honda Civic Si (2.0L I4 197 hp 139 lb.ft)
21 City / 29 Highway / 24 Combined

Volkswagen GTI (2.0L I4 200 hp 207 lb.ft)
21 City / 31 Highway / 25 Combined

Don't call me "dumb ignorant".

jetway1212

Apr 9th, 2009, 08:48 AM

If only we could build high quality cars like VW & Audi's which are very problematic and expensive to fix or have issues like Toyota with sludge in our engines, or have faulty transmissions in our honda minivans, accords and civics.

If only. I love the idiots who come on here and only talk about trashing N/A brands when there are tons of issues with Japanese & European cars. Honestly, there are good and bad cars from Japanese and American brands. I'm not going to write an essay, but here are some examples.

http://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/Civic/2001/

http://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/Accord/2003/

http://www.carcomplaints.com/Toyota/RAV4/2002/

http://www.hondaproblems.com/

http://www.toyotaproblems.com/

And i love the idiots who think Tesla is the new generation of motor transportation without knowing the technology behind it. It would never work in mainstream and its a old age technology that will never work practically.

Gosh dont you love bashing on the forum? Every cars have problems but the questions is the how many they got. Quality assurance can not never reach 100%. Stop living in a oh-la-la land idiot.

Aero

Apr 9th, 2009, 08:56 AM

Engi-Nir

Apr 9th, 2009, 09:02 AM

Sorry, wanna try that again, I know which one I would want to drive

Chevrolet Camaro (3.6L V6 304 hp 273 lb.ft)
18 City / 29 Highway / 23 Combined

Honda Civic Si (2.0L I4 197 hp 139 lb.ft)
21 City / 29 Highway / 24 Combined

Volkswagen GTI (2.0L I4 200 hp 207 lb.ft)
21 City / 31 Highway / 25 Combined

You failed, that information is clearly inaccurate, if you want actual data, please ask one of many RFD individuals and they will be happy to tell you what they THINK is the right specs.

Civic Si gets about 300hp, 40mpg average, and is an amazing vehicle, and Cobalt SS with its specs can not even come close to a Si.
And then I ask you, how in guds' name does a camaro priced similar going to stand close to an Si?

I think German cars are very nice designs, and then the new GM cars look good (G8, G6, Malibu LTZ, lambda brothers, cts, cobalt ss, camora, etc), Honda/Toyota died in design stage (then again, ACURA is a design marvel on RFD). Lexus is a different story, IS, Is-F, RX350,etc are very nice.
Infiniti G37 coupe is damn nice.

Emancipated

Apr 9th, 2009, 09:04 AM

For me its the stereotype. Domestic are problematic and imports are reliable stuff like that. Would I buy a domestic if it is cheaper (which it is) or more reliable and fuel efficient probably not. Do I think that imports or euro cars are boring, not really coz there are other cars than a civic (another stereotype on that one). I don't hate domestic its just I am one of those people who can't tell the difference between the new challenger and camaro at first glance. And about the mustang, it is kinda played out, most people are making a joke that the limited edition mustang is the stock ones since they are releasing like a dozen limited edition, special edition, etc edition mustang every year (exaggerating of course).

Both side of the pond releases pablum year after year so it's not just domestic generics. It seems if one wants to stand out, they need to buy domestic because every yuppie in the neighborhood has an import of some variation.

I would look at the Challenger or Mustang if it weren't for high gas prices. That's the only reason I am looking for a more balanced car but if gas prices weren't a concerned, I'd get a V8 muscle. How many Asians do you see driving a V8 muscle car? Exactly.

airodus

Apr 9th, 2009, 09:24 AM

A categorical "no" from me - I personally like the competition and the variety of choice that is out there today. The fact that manufacturers like GM are finally stepping up and offering attractive - and even compelling - products is super but let's not denigrate the best of the imports just because of where their manufacturers' HQs are.

Choice is good.

That being said, I drove nothing but Japanese and European for almost 25 years and now drive an '09 CTS because it delivered the goods I was looking for.

And, yes, I like what I see in the Camaro and the 2010 Mustang too.

+1

All cars get a fair shake from me. I grew up driving japanese (Toyota, Honda, Subaru), graduated into driving german (BMW, Audi) and am now the proud owner of an 09 Cadillac CTS.

The strange thing about me is that I don't like most japanese cars, despite growing up with them. They mostly feel uninspired (except the Subaru which was quite fun). I'm asian too, and probably the only one I know driving a premium American car. Then again, I don't like rice either.

gherikill

Apr 9th, 2009, 09:26 AM

I love American cars. I would never be caught dead in a Japanese toy car, or a dime a dozen BMW. I would probably drive a Volvo or Mercedes though...

ES_Revenge

Apr 9th, 2009, 11:49 AM

People really need to get off this uninformed stereotype.
Yep, and this one too:

Yes you right - german and japanese are so boring - you just drive and drive and drive and drive. Atleast with american you in the shop every week.
:rolleyes:

Sorry, wanna try that again, I know which one I would want to drive

Chevrolet Camaro (3.6L V6 304 hp 273 lb.ft)
18 City / 29 Highway / 23 Combined

Honda Civic Si (2.0L I4 197 hp 139 lb.ft)
21 City / 29 Highway / 24 Combined

Volkswagen GTI (2.0L I4 200 hp 207 lb.ft)
21 City / 31 Highway / 25 Combined
GTI? :D Though I can't speak about the others the GTI is typically better in the city than it says; plus the GTI still feels pretty quick on the highway in top gear with it's relatively short 6th (while still achieving great fuel economy), whereas GM is well known for using tall (numerically low) overdrive ratios to get good highway fuel economy numbers. While I'm not sure about the Camaro, I wouldn't be surprised if it were that way as well. But these cars are in a different class anyway--Camaro is huge in comparison to the Civic and GTI. I don't really see someone in the market for a GTI, Civic Si, etc. going for a Camaro and vice versa.

No I really hate the American car design (exterior-wise), saved for the Vette and CTS. The last generation of Camero I like, but the new one I can't stand. Most of them just looks like boats on wheels and tend to handle like one too.
Well the "new" Camaro, the exterior was designed ages ago it just took them about a decade to make it. What would have probably been more impressive 8 years ago, seems like "too little too late" today.

As for the "boats on wheels and tend to handle like one too", that's just nonsense.

What about German muscle cars like a C63?

The only downside is:
Mercedes C63 (6.2L V8 451 hp 443 lb.ft)
NA City / NA Highway / NA Combined
Yeah but the current-gen CTS-V will beat up on it (and the M3 and the B7 RS4), though it is priced even higher than the C63.

C63 does look great to me though, I have no problems with the design (which is what I think this thread is mainly about).

awesome minivans! :cheesygri
Yeah who the hell knows what Chrysler was thinking there though :confused: I mean it's not like the Japanese and German aren't just as crazed. I mean Acura and that grille, along with the entire TL? LOL. And VW are just as ******** as Chrysler given they are using Chrysler's same van in their line up as the Routan :rolleyes:

Gosh dont you love bashing on the forum? Every cars have problems but the questions is the how many they got. Quality assurance can not never reach 100%. Stop living in a oh-la-la land idiot.
Well the first few uses of the word idiot were more vague/general insults, that last one seems pretty direct/personal to me. What are you like 12? I mean talk about "bashing on the forum" on one line and call people idiot on your next line? :rolleyes: While I agree that Tesla is a joke, that's certainly no reason to call someone an idiot. Reported.

As for the actual thread topic, I wouldn't say I'm sick of Japanese and German cars, not as a general statement anyway. As some examples, the B8 A4 seems impressive enough to me, not to mention the current TT; most cars from Nissan/Infinity seem fine to me as well, though you can't expect much from Toyota as they are the usual yawnfest. Yay the IS-F, but they've got absolutely nothing else. And Honda? Well they are stinking up the place with most of their lineup big time. Even the good cars they had (e.g. TSX) they managed to wreck up in their most recent incarnations :(

Audi will not disappoint with upcoming vehicles like the TT-RS, S4/S5, and hopefully RS4/RS5. The R8, well enough said there; the RS6 is simply amazing.

MB the GLK is a nice additon, but apart from the C class not really much that interests me. Can't really "argue" with the SL65 AMG but c'mon automatic transmission? Just what is it with MB and their obsession with autos? I think the S65 AMG has a sequential manual option, which seems odd--I mean why give the big boat sedan that option while the sports car gets an auto? :confused:

BMW, what I'm sick of there is the interior but that's tradition with them so no getting around that.

Who else? Mitsubishi, you can't really fault the Lancer Ralliart and EVO along with the new Sportback version of the Lancer. Subaru seems to have a miss with their upcoming Legacy, but the Impreza still manages to look the part, particularly the always boy-racer STi.

Going back to the GM and Ford stuff.. The Mustang has been great since 2005 and I really don't care what people have to say about it, the car is great in it's class/price point. The design is great, the performance is good, and the price is right. Not much else to say, except that it seems a bit underrated/forgotten these days. The rest of Ford's "good" is typically seen in Mazda IMO. Volvo, while boring-as-usual, still has some merit in the new XC60.

The Camaro on the other hand, though the F-bodies beat out the Mustangs time and time again (in my lifetime, anyway), GM's new effort is fairly disappointing to me especially considering the time it took them to make this vehicle and to revive the nameplate. Though I want to like the Camro, I just don't. It's G8 sibling, I like much better but even there the interior and strange engine selection are a let down.

The rest of GM, well I mean not much to complain about in terms of excitement--Cobalt SS TC, CTS-V, Solstice GXP/Sky Red Line, and the King of the Hill, the ZR1. Need I say more? GM just needs more modern transmission offerings (sequential manual or double clutch), better interiors, and quicker moves to updated cars (instead of rehashing aging platforms ala Mailbu). And of course elimination of extraneous brands and models.

Chrysler? Well man I dunno what they heck they are doing but not much good. The LX cars are aging seriously, the Challenger is another "too little too late" that's basically on the same aging platform... And cars like the Caliber and Avenger? Wow what mistakes there! Viper is all but forgotten by Chrysler themselves it seems like; and it seems like they've been stunted for a while, overall. :(

All-in-all, I don't think it's a matter of being Japanese or German (or not), almost every car company has their hits and misses, their exciting stuff and their boring. Some more than others, but nothing so as to say only American companies are making exciting/great new cars.

JohnB

Apr 9th, 2009, 03:38 PM

I love American cars. I would never be caught dead in a Japanese toy car, or a dime a dozen BMW. I would probably drive a Volvo or Mercedes though...

May I ask what car you currently drive? Just wondering. I was looking at some Fords, but the Fusion was too small and cheap (was this supposed to be a replacement for the Contour?) and the Taurus Ive never seen one on the road in my life, I dont even know what its called now, a 500, or whatever.

sixer

Apr 9th, 2009, 07:51 PM

And i love the idiots who think Tesla is the new generation of motor transportation without knowing the technology behind it. It would never work in mainstream and its a old age technology that will never work practically.

Gosh dont you love bashing on the forum? Every cars have problems but the questions is the how many they got. Quality assurance can not never reach 100%. Stop living in a oh-la-la land idiot.

I think your mom's calling you to clean your room.

Thanks for contributing so much to this thread.

afici0nad0

Apr 10th, 2009, 12:17 AM

no, i'm not sick of imports.

however, i'd love to get my hands on some classic american muscle cars:

61-65 impala
~60's camaro/nova/mustang
~60's lincoln continental (suicide doors)

there are some really nice looking new domestics. i'd love to own the new cts-v and g8 gt 6mt. i am a huge fan of GM @ australia (bad ass 4-door sedans).

Donomight25

Apr 10th, 2009, 12:34 AM

(This post has nothing to do with the economy or anything btw)

For some strange reason the cars that really appeal to me these days are all american. I'm talking about the new....

HOLD THE PHONE.....new things appeal to you? No wayyyy.....

plucky duck

Apr 10th, 2009, 01:48 AM

The new CTS-V is a real head turner for me, but the thoughts of owning a new one is out the door and the idea of buying a used domestic doesn't offer me that peace of mind in terms of reliability.

rupert

Apr 10th, 2009, 02:46 AM

The 70K price of admission isn't a downside as well??

70K for what you are getting? Its like a STEAL.

AudiDude

Apr 10th, 2009, 03:44 AM

70K for what you are getting? Its like a STEAL.

It would appear that so long as an option in the form of the CTS-V is available, calling the car a steal might be a little overzealous. Also, all the other cars it compares to are realatively close in price and performance, but offer other options such as manual transmission. In the end, the German cars, will have better resale value, but as a used car only purchaser, that is not a trait I am looking for in a brand or model. How about, "It's a good deal".

CaptSmethwick

Apr 10th, 2009, 07:24 AM

+1

All cars get a fair shake from me. I grew up driving japanese (Toyota, Honda, Subaru), graduated into driving german (BMW, Audi) and am now the proud owner of an 09 Cadillac CTS.

The strange thing about me is that I don't like most japanese cars, despite growing up with them. They mostly feel uninspired (except the Subaru which was quite fun). I'm asian too, and probably the only one I know driving a premium American car. Then again, I don't like rice either.

This sounds scarily like me (okay, I'm not Asian...). I grew up in a home with Japanese cars in the driveway (since our Toyota Crown in 1968) and drove nothing but Japanese cars - with one (European) exception - until just a few years ago. And now drive a 2009 CTS-4 DI. Like I said, scary...

Back in the day, those Japanese cars were small, tossable, and fun to drive - at least compared with what the domestics had to offer. For the most part, sadly, that is in the past. :(

Over the years, I noticed that many of my old favourite Japanese cars had become bigger, heavier, less agile and devoid of interest. I once had a Celica and a Supra - where are they now? The Cressida and Maxima once appealed to me but now I see the Avalon as a tired, old man's car - it may be reliable, but it's gosh-darned dull. Fortunately, the Maxima has retained its appeal over the years and frequently makes my short list. And - as you suggest - Subarus have actually become more interesting over time.

To my mind, Toyotas has become the worst offender over the years to the point that driving dynamics now mostly appear to be an engineering afterthought. Honda bore that torch longer - and to my mind, the current Civic and Accord coupes still do. Mazda seems to have regained their mojo and Nissan occasionally flirts with it. Lexus vehicles are well built, but with the exception of the IS 250/350 mostly feel like a photocopy of a work of art - it's as if their relentless pursuit was to perfect the Buick. Mission accomplished.

To be fair, I do not see the European marques in the same light - especially the premium offerings we see in Canada. I'd be happy to have any of them in my drive. Okay, almost any of them.

But let's be honest, Detroit's offerings haven't been that much better - with a couple of exceptions (Grand National, Reatta), Buicks have been dull for almost 40 years. Ditto Olds (Aurora), Chev (Camaro, Corvette), Ford (Mustang), Pontiac (Fiero), Chrysler (Prowler) - but for a sprinkling of models, nothing coming out of Detroit turned my head during the 70s, 80s, or 90s. That's a very long drought and I had pretty well written them off.

And, let's face it, these improved Detroit products we both seem to like are good but this is a recent phenomenon - many years in the making, to be sure, but relatively recent all the same. It's likely going to be a very long time before we see those raised to find a Camry appealing choose a 2010 Allure or CTS over a Lexus ES350, much less even cross-shop these cars.

Still, every time I shop, I consider virtually all brands regardless of country of origin - and there are usually more imports on my short list than domestics. Funny, though, I keep ending up with Cadillacs... ;)

airodus

Apr 10th, 2009, 12:08 PM

Still, every time I shop, I consider virtually all brands regardless of country of origin - and there are usually more imports on my short list than domestics. Funny, though, I keep ending up with Cadillacs... ;)

I agree with almost everything you said. Except I find the Lexus IS uninspired compared to its German competition. My short list was a 335xi coupe or Audi A5/S5, but on a whim I decided to try out the Caddy dealership. I had been driving stiff as heck cars for so long I kind of forgot how a comfortable car feels. It's nice to have great handling and not have to grimace over every crack or bump in the road you drive over. So yah the CTS just kind of won me over. It's also nice that it can actually fit adults in the back seat.

I hope more people look at the CTS, cause it really is an awesome car for the majority of the population. I see so many people driving the 3 series BMW like grannies and I groan. The 3 series is an a$$ ugly car on both the outside and inside, it's small and uncomfortable (the seats are nice but the ride is harsh). It's not a point A to point B automobile. It's a freakin performance car and for that it's worth every penny. But people buy it for the badge and at the end of the day, are buying the wrong car.

But the CTS is big, comfortable, beautiful and can still be fun when pushed. It's not going to out-corner a 3 series (well CTS-V might), nor will it take it in the straights. But it doesn't need to, it has so much going for it other than performance and consciously makes some sacrifices in the name of practicality and comfort.

With the CTS-V, Cadillac has proven they can make a class leading sports sedan. With the CTS, they have proven they can make a class leading family sedan. I just hope people realize it.

time space

Apr 10th, 2009, 12:11 PM

Reliability does become so predictable over the years.

I guess you're right - Japanese and German imports are a sickeningly great deal!

ivica5683

Apr 15th, 2009, 08:03 PM

Engi-Nir

Apr 15th, 2009, 08:41 PM

If you really think that the 3.6 L v6 Camaro will get the same 29 highway miles as the civic, then you are NUTS................

Pure physics my friend the camaro weighs way more.......... Civic combustion is about as efficient as you can get.....

I know eh, your phd in aerodynimcs combined with your background in engine design/efficency will defintely back your claim :confused:

Sadly, EPA is a controlled study, and has been accurate thus far.

SkiD

Apr 15th, 2009, 08:58 PM

If you really think that the 3.6 L v6 Camaro will get the same 29 highway miles as the civic, then you are NUTS................

Pure physics my friend the camaro weighs way more.......... Civic combustion is about as efficient as you can get.....

I guess the fact that the Camaro's 3.6 makes way more torque at idle than the Si makes at its peak that allows for low RPM's at highway speeds doesn't figure into your 'weight' calculations.

mart242

Apr 15th, 2009, 09:13 PM

But the CTS is big, comfortable, beautiful and can still be fun when pushed. It's not going to out-corner a 3 series (well CTS-V might), nor will it take it in the straights.

Yeah but the clowns at GM decided that the AWD one is only available as automatic :confused:

CaptSmethwick

Apr 15th, 2009, 09:15 PM

I agree with almost everything you said. Except I find the Lexus IS uninspired compared to its German competition. My short list was a 335xi coupe or Audi A5/S5, but on a whim I decided to try out the Caddy dealership. I had been driving stiff as heck cars for so long I kind of forgot how a comfortable car feels. It's nice to have great handling and not have to grimace over every crack or bump in the road you drive over. So yah the CTS just kind of won me over. It's also nice that it can actually fit adults in the back seat.

I hope more people look at the CTS, cause it really is an awesome car for the majority of the population. I see so many people driving the 3 series BMW like grannies and I groan. The 3 series is an a$$ ugly car on both the outside and inside, it's small and uncomfortable (the seats are nice but the ride is harsh). It's not a point A to point B automobile. It's a freakin performance car and for that it's worth every penny. But people buy it for the badge and at the end of the day, are buying the wrong car.

But the CTS is big, comfortable, beautiful and can still be fun when pushed. It's not going to out-corner a 3 series (well CTS-V might), nor will it take it in the straights. But it doesn't need to, it has so much going for it other than performance and consciously makes some sacrifices in the name of practicality and comfort.

With the CTS-V, Cadillac has proven they can make a class leading sports sedan. With the CTS, they have proven they can make a class leading family sedan. I just hope people realize it.

Words of wisdom.

I cross-shopped the CTS with A6 3.2, G35x, and 528xi - cars that have share similar interior size and ride characteristics. Frankly, the final choice came down to personal preference - the CTS had a nicer interior than the others, had more oomph to it, and was several thousand $ cheaper. Er... except for the Infiniti - frankly, that represented a pretty decent deal as well and, although it is a little tighter inside than the CTS, it's a decent size and does it ever blast out of the gate. To be honest with you, I was indeed tempted...

AudiDude

Apr 15th, 2009, 09:26 PM

I know eh, your phd in aerodynimcs combined with your background in engine design/efficency will defintely back your claim :confused:

Sadly, EPA is a controlled study, and has been accurate thus far.

I guess the fact that the Camaro's 3.6 makes way more torque at idle than the Si makes at its peak that allows for low RPM's at highway speeds doesn't figure into your 'weight' calculations.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

ivica5683

Apr 15th, 2009, 10:49 PM

I know eh, your phd in aerodynimcs combined with your background in engine design/efficency will defintely back your claim :confused:

Sadly, EPA is a controlled study, and has been accurate thus far.

********!!!

Drag Force = Cd * rho * A * V squared / 2

Cd for civic = .31, .27 for civic hybrid
Cd for camaro 2010 = .37
Frontal Area A for a Camaro is going to be bigger (it's a bigger car) don't have time to do your homework for you
rho = both 1.2 kg/meter cubed
v= both at same test condition

Basic physics if you understand it will tell you the energy and hp to overcome drag alone will be greater for Camar
The energy/hp to move the camaro will be greater

Since you know so much about energy design efficiency, please do share, the last time I checked the conversion for a combustion engine was around 30%. The only gains in the last 20 years have been in material science. Lighter cars, better fuel injection etc.

Please share what you know. Show me where epa states camaro with v6 has same mileage stats as civic.

ivica5683

Apr 15th, 2009, 11:01 PM

I guess the fact that the Camaro's 3.6 makes way more torque at idle than the Si makes at its peak that allows for low RPM's at highway speeds doesn't figure into your 'weight' calculations.

******** !!!!!!!!!!!!

Offcourse the Camaro makes more torque. Bigger engines are created because manufacturer wants more hp as an end result.

Hp = torque * speed

Note you also end up with low RPM with higher gears. Most new automatic gearcases are 5 speed and some even going to six speed for that reason.

So at cruising speed (highway) I stated that the civic will get more miles to the gallon than a V6 camaro, if you are to stupid to see that then I'll let it be.

Please do show me where EPA says that the V6 Camaro will get 29 mi/gallon and that the same epa says that a civic is getting 29 miles to the gallon.

And yes weight is one of the most critical aspects of good fuel economy. The energy required to move a v6 camaro is much greater than the energy to move a civic.
My point was strictly gas mileage.

ivica5683

Apr 15th, 2009, 11:13 PM

(This post has nothing to do with the economy or anything btw)

For most of my life I've driven imports (german and japanese)... but lately I find pretty much all of them incredibly boring.

For some strange reason the cars that really appeal to me these days are all american. I'm talking about the new camaro, new challenger... cts-v... etc etc.

Maybe it's just me... or maybe imports have just been played out in general. All my friends have g35s and bmws... i like to be different. And I have a feeling my next car is gonna be one of these new-retro american muscle cars. Anyone else feeling the same way?

I'm not particularly old (late 20s), but I have a feeling that some of these cars wouldn't appeal to some of the kids on this board cause they weren't around at all during the muscle car era....

obligatory eye candy:

http://firetrendnews.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/camaro.jpg

http://www.partstrain.com/images/The_Auto_Blog/Dodge-Challenger-Concept-12.jpg

cts coupe concept:

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/03/2008-Cadillac-CTS-Coupe-Concept.jpg

yeah I'm pretty sick and tired of the japanese cars.

This week my Honda is going to turn 300,000 kms. for the last 11 years I've only done oil changes, 1 timing belt , spark plugs, cap and rotor. I do the maintenace, so it's been parts only. In the process I've saved enough money to buy pretty much any car out there (including top mercedes or bmw), but I'll still stick to the boring jap crap. This car has helped me pay off a mortgage, build a business and I still enjoy driving the old beater. Drives and handles like the day it was new.

SkylineGTR

Apr 16th, 2009, 12:02 AM

i'm in my early 30's and still prefer the japanese/german imports over american. just don't find any of them that appealing....but that's just me.

Agreed. Sorry, but the quality of domestic vehicles alone is just terrible never mind the look.

No, i think Jap/German are still better quality than the Domestic, Even Hyundai is caughing up.

Yep also agree. With the situation with GM especially, Hyundai's quality is far better than any GM vehicle or Ford vehicle.

1LuckyGuy

Apr 16th, 2009, 05:35 AM

Please do show me where EPA says that the V6 Camaro will get 29 mi/gallon and that the same epa says that a civic is getting 29 miles to the gallon.

They don't have the official numbers on their website for the Camaro yet because it is a 2010 model, but according to Car and Driver, official EPA numbers on the V6 is 18/29 (as stated):

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/corvette_camaro_corner/2010_chevrolet_camaro_fuel_economy_figures_and_opt ion_packages_released_car_news

Camaro buyers opting for the 3.6-liter hooked to an automatic transmission will see EPA ratings of 18 mpg city and 29 highway on the sticker, and manual-equipped cars are rated at 17/29 mpg.

Also, from the US government site for fuel economy, the EPA numbers for the Honda Civic SI are 21/29 (also as stated):

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/26250.shtml

Satisfied?

ivica5683

Apr 16th, 2009, 08:48 AM

They don't have the official numbers on their website for the Camaro yet because it is a 2010 model, but according to Car and Driver, official EPA numbers on the V6 is 18/29 (as stated):

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/corvette_camaro_corner/2010_chevrolet_camaro_fuel_economy_figures_and_opt ion_packages_released_car_news

Also, from the US government site for fuel economy, the EPA numbers for the Honda Civic SI are 21/29 (also as stated):

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/26250.shtml

Satisfied?

Nope. This is a quote from you EPA website.

Therefore, the EPA ratings are a useful tool for comparing the fuel economies of different vehicles but may not accurately predict the average MPG you will get.

Have a look at the Chevy Malibu with the 3.6 liter engine you are talking about. The Camaro will most likely have similar gas mileage. Same engine displacement, probably similar in weight, etc. The EPA for highway is 26 and combined 20.
The civic si is 29 highway and 24 combined.

So comparing a car that isn't even out yet with theoretical numbers to an acutal is ridiculous. If you believe anything GM is telling you good luck. All of their numbers are over inflated.

If they don't have official numbers why say anything. You know that the actual numbers can't be anywhere close.

Check on your EPA site for your self.

dealmeone

Apr 16th, 2009, 09:03 AM

It all depends what turns YOUR crank.

There are good American, German AND Japanese cars. It's all a matter of taste and what you are going to use the car for (6, 5, or 2 people...towing a boat or cruising the twisty roads...or just parking in your driveway and starring at it).

I love ther return of the American muscle cars/pony cars too, but who wants to be paying for barrels of gas every week?

For me to be happy, I would probably need half a dozen different cars for different uses.

KorruptioN

Apr 16th, 2009, 09:08 AM

Agreed. Sorry, but the quality of domestic vehicles alone is just terrible never mind the look.

Yep also agree. With the situation with GM especially, Hyundai's quality is far better than any GM vehicle or Ford vehicle.

Sorry, but I'd call you just a little bit biased, based on your username and avatar...

Engi-Nir

Apr 16th, 2009, 09:12 AM

Nope. This is a quote from you EPA website.

Therefore, the EPA ratings are a useful tool for comparing the fuel economies of different vehicles but may not accurately predict the average MPG you will get.

Have a look at the Chevy Malibu with the 3.6 liter engine you are talking about. The Camaro will most likely have similar gas mileage. Same engine displacement, probably similar in weight, etc. The EPA for highway is 26 and combined 20.
The civic si is 29 highway and 24 combined.

So comparing a car that isn't even out yet with theoretical numbers to an acutal is ridiculous. If you believe anything GM is telling you good luck. All of their numbers are over inflated.

If they don't have official numbers why say anything. You know that the actual numbers can't be anywhere close.

Check on your EPA site for your self.

EPA rating was officially announced for Camaro, that is where the numbers came from, not from someone's A$$. Than again, if civic epa was 40mpg, it is accurate by all accounts. But Let's just assume GM is a gas guzzler, and call it a day, so much easier.

This is the same reason why Toyota had to drop is mpgs on the prius, they fabricated numbers initially ;) They revised to be what EPA said.

Engi-Nir

Apr 16th, 2009, 09:14 AM

new_vr

Apr 16th, 2009, 09:14 AM

******** !!!!!!!!!!!!

Offcourse the Camaro makes more torque. Bigger engines are created because manufacturer wants more hp as an end result.

Not necessarily true. Bigger engines are created to make more torque, not necessarily HP. For an example, see a tractor.

So at cruising speed (highway) I stated that the civic will get more miles to the gallon than a V6 camaro, if you are to stupid to see that then I'll let it be.

If you are going to flame people, get your facts straight. It should be "too stupid" not "to stupid"

gherikill

Apr 16th, 2009, 09:15 AM

ES_Revenge

Apr 16th, 2009, 09:22 AM

Nope. This is a quote from you EPA website.

Therefore, the EPA ratings are a useful tool for comparing the fuel economies of different vehicles but may not accurately predict the average MPG you will get.

Have a look at the Chevy Malibu with the 3.6 liter engine you are talking about. The Camaro will most likely have similar gas mileage. Same engine displacement, probably similar in weight, etc. The EPA for highway is 26 and combined 20.
The civic si is 29 highway and 24 combined.
Uhhhh, first off the Malibu has the LY7 motor while the Camaro has the LLT. Try finding out what you're talking about before you start talking maybe? The LLT is the direct injection version of the LY7. Both are 3.6L but DI can make a marked difference in both power and economy.

Also, you are forgetting that there's more to fuel economy than just the engine (even if they were the same engine). Everything from gear and axle ratios, final drive, what wheels are driven, etc. can also influence fuel economy. Just because two cars have the same engine doesn't mean their fuel economy will be the same.

If you believe anything GM is telling you good luck. All of their numbers are over inflated.
So not just inflated but "over inflated"? :lol: LOL gimme a break. All manufacturers, not just GM, inflate fuel economy ratings to show the best numbers possible. The EPA ratings are just ratings and believe me there are lots of Hondas out there that don't get anywhere near their EPA ratings either. At least the EPA ratings have improved though, from what they used to be, when they revised their testing methods a few years ago...

Anyway yeah you need to get a clue before posting nonsense, thanks. :)

new_vr

Apr 16th, 2009, 09:27 AM

yeah I'm pretty sick and tired of the japanese cars.

This week my Honda is going to turn 300,000 kms. for the last 11 years I've only done oil changes, 1 timing belt , spark plugs, cap and rotor. I do the maintenace, so it's been parts only....Drives and handles like the day it was new.

It has magic suspension that hasn't degraded over time? I don't care where your car was made...if you drive it in Canada your suspension can't be good on a car with 300K that is 11 years old. It's made of metal, which rusts. The rubber on the bushings rot. It's a sad side effect from all the salt on our roads, and all the potholes.

CaptSmethwick

Apr 16th, 2009, 09:27 AM

yeah I'm pretty sick and tired of the japanese cars.

This week my Honda is going to turn 300,000 kms. for the last 11 years I've only done oil changes, 1 timing belt , spark plugs, cap and rotor. I do the maintenace, so it's been parts only. In the process I've saved enough money to buy pretty much any car out there (including top mercedes or bmw), but I'll still stick to the boring jap crap. This car has helped me pay off a mortgage, build a business and I still enjoy driving the old beater. Drives and handles like the day it was new.

And I had a Pontiac for 8 years and well over 200k kms with only basic maintenance and, BTW, no need to touch its timing chain. When we sold it earlier this year, absolutely everything worked as it did when it was new - and this car bristled with electronic features. After 25 years of owning only Japanese and European, the Pontiac shocked me by proving to be the most dependable and cheapest to maintain of the lot of them.

And, like you, I can afford anything out there (with the exception of exotics) and am happy to open-mindedly consider - at every purchase - the best of the Japanese, European and domestic marques. And the last 3 times, I've ended up with a Cadillac and haven't regretted it one iota.

ivica5683

Apr 16th, 2009, 10:10 AM

Uhhhh, first off the Malibu has the LY7 motor while the Camaro has the LLT. Try finding out what you're talking about before you start talking maybe? The LLT is the direct injection version of the LY7. Both are 3.6L but DI can make a marked difference in both power and economy.

Also, you are forgetting that there's more to fuel economy than just the engine (even if they were the same engine). Everything from gear and axle ratios, final drive, what wheels are driven, etc. can also influence fuel economy. Just because two cars have the same engine doesn't mean their fuel economy will be the same.

So not just inflated but "over inflated"? :lol: LOL gimme a break. All manufacturers, not just GM, inflate fuel economy ratings to show the best numbers possible. The EPA ratings are just ratings and believe me there are lots of Hondas out there that don't get anywhere near their EPA ratings either. At least the EPA ratings have improved though, from what they used to be, when they revised their testing methods a few years ago...

Anyway yeah you need to get a clue before posting nonsense, thanks. :)

My original post was basically stating that a v6 Camaro will never achieve the same highway mileage as the civic Si. Don't care if the Camaro uses the LLT engine and the Malibu uses the LYN. When the car is finally released you will see that the real world numbers will not be far off.

You quote that "Both are 3.6L but DI can make a marked difference in both power and economy."

If it was that good it would be an engine of choice.

It's the old marketing plot. Look we have somehting new, it's wonderful so all you suckers can buy it.

GM and Chrysler have been making gas guzzling engines and this is what they are good at.

ivica5683

Apr 16th, 2009, 10:14 AM

Not necessarily true. Bigger engines are created to make more torque, not necessarily HP. For an example, see a tractor.

If you are going to flame people, get your facts straight. It should be "too stupid" not "to stupid"

Who is comparing tractors?

What planet do you come from.

Read the posts from the start, no mention of tractors.

ES_Revenge

Apr 16th, 2009, 10:20 AM

My original post was basically stating that a v6 Camaro will never achieve the same highway mileage as the civic Si. Don't care if the Camaro uses the LLT engine and the Malibu uses the LYN.
:rolleyes:

The above is exactly why your posts are totally useless. You don't care about what the differences are, you don't care what the facts are, you don't care to know what the truth is, and you certainly don't care to know a damn thing about automobiles.

All you seem to care about is your own assumptions about things and your own theories about how a Camaro will never do this or that, just based on what you think. Personally I don't give a damn about whether you think a Civic Si will beat a Veyron in a race (which anyone could very well think) or what else you think, especially given your demonstrated lack of knowledge and demonstrated willful ignorance on the subject at hand.

Given you seem to know so little about automobiles and otherwise don't care that you know so little, that just makes you have next to zero credibility and your posts are just a waste of everyone's time.

That's why I said you need to get a clue. I have very little knowledge about snowboarding for example. If I go on the snowboarding forum (if there was one) and talk about what snowboards are best and how this brand of snowboard can never do what another brand does and everyone points me out as the moron I'd be for saying something like that, should my response be "oh well I don't care to know anything about snowboards I'm just telling you that brand X will never do as well as brand Y because I said so", and then should I expect to be taken seriously? Or should people treat me as the troll I'd be being for doing such foolery? :rolleyes:

I.e. Give us all a break, stop posting garbage.

new_vr

Apr 16th, 2009, 10:26 AM

Who is comparing tractors?

What planet do you come from.

Read the posts from the start, no mention of tractors.
I was providing a counter argument to your statement that "
Offcourse the Camaro makes more torque. Bigger engines are created because manufacturer wants more hp as an end result. "
A bigger engine can be created to make more torque, without necessarily trying to create more HP
For myself, I don't really care about having a car with a lot of HP. I prefer lots of low end torque (hence my love for diesel engines). Outside of diesels, I would rather have a larger displacement engine, to get the benefits of the low-end torque, over a high revving, low torque engine
Does it help your argument to insult people?

ImJJ

Apr 16th, 2009, 10:28 AM

I am not sick of them but yes I do like to see us having our own Canadian brand...

I am really amazed no one seems to talk about this possibility having our own brands made from Canada only, esp. in this crisis it's a perfect opportunity to be talking about it.

ivica5683

Apr 16th, 2009, 10:51 AM

:rolleyes:

The above is exactly why your posts are totally useless. You don't care about what the differences are, you don't care what the facts are, you don't care to know what the truth is, and you certainly don't care to know a damn thing about automobiles.

All you seem to care about is your own assumptions about things and your own theories about how a Camaro will never do this or that, just based on what you think. Personally I don't give a damn about whether you think a Civic Si will beat a Veyron in a race (which anyone could very well think) or what else you think, especially given your demonstrated lack of knowledge and demonstrated willful ignorance on the subject at hand.

Given you seem to know so little about automobiles and otherwise don't care that you know so little, that just makes you have next to zero credibility and your posts are just a waste of everyone's time.

That's why I said you need to get a clue. I have very little knowledge about snowboarding for example. If I go on the snowboarding forum (if there was one) and talk about what snowboards are best and how this brand of snowboard can never do what another brand does and everyone points me out as the moron I'd be for saying something like that, should my response be "oh well I don't care to know anything about snowboards I'm just telling you that brand X will never do as well as brand Y because I said so", and then should I expect to be taken seriously? Or should people treat me as the troll I'd be being for doing such foolery? :rolleyes:

I.e. Give us all a break, stop posting garbage.

You spew nothing but useless junk, bring in arguments like tractors that don't have any revelence.

I stated initially;

Drag Force = Cd * rho * A * V squared / 2

Cd for civic = .31, .27 for civic hybrid
Cd for camaro 2010 = .37
Frontal Area A for a Camaro is going to be bigger (it's a bigger car) don't have time to do your homework for you
rho = both 1.2 kg/meter cubed
v= both at same test condition

Show me something scientific, you can't. Show me something other than what GM claims.

My only claim was that the heavy V6 can never get the same mileage as a light Si at highway cruising speeds.

Most average size cars need to develop about 70 hp to cruise at highway speeds, weight and drag coefficient being major factors. Yes gearing plays a major factor, and the heavy Camaro will have to be geared differently to develop more torque to move it's heavy ass.

Good thing you don't snow board , you would have killed yourself already.

By the way I can back up my numbers with Science, what have you got?

golden

Apr 16th, 2009, 11:28 AM

By the time I'm sick of Jap/German imports, I'll go Korean. If I'm sick of all imports, then I'm sick of all cars in general.....

Don't get me wrong, there are a few domestic cars I like, such as Ford GT, but can't afford it and if I can, I would still go for something else for the price.

Engi-Nir

Apr 16th, 2009, 11:31 AM

You spew nothing but useless junk, bring in arguments like tractors that don't have any revelence.

I stated initially;

Drag Force = Cd * rho * A * V squared / 2

Cd for civic = .31, .27 for civic hybrid
Cd for camaro 2010 = .37
Frontal Area A for a Camaro is going to be bigger (it's a bigger car) don't have time to do your homework for you
rho = both 1.2 kg/meter cubed
v= both at same test condition

Show me something scientific, you can't. Show me something other than what GM claims.

My only claim was that the heavy V6 can never get the same mileage as a light Si at highway cruising speeds.

Most average size cars need to develop about 70 hp to cruise at highway speeds, weight and drag coefficient being major factors. Yes gearing plays a major factor, and the heavy Camaro will have to be geared differently to develop more torque to move it's heavy ass.

Good thing you don't snow board , you would have killed yourself already.

By the way I can back up my numbers with Science, what have you got?

I am talking out of my a$$ this point cause I am lazy to open books, and look at some stuff, but to maintain cruising speed, engine still requires to do work, moving an object regardless of having drag coefficient lower, your engine still needs to work, we are talking about HORIZONTAL DISPLACEMENT, going on a slope is a different story. Crusing speed is great, but no road just goes downhill. ENGINE/etc makes a huge difference.

Your snowboard comment makes no sense, on a horizontal plan, you could be aerodynamic to the max, and you still can not move, without downward slope to offset gravity. And object at rest will not move without an external force, in snowboard it is DOWNHILL that builds up the acceleration, and being aerodynamic helps, but Weight also important as it is one of the force that helps(gravity+weight=greater downward Force). I don't see snowboarders going cross country skiing.

bythehour

Apr 16th, 2009, 11:41 AM

ES_Revenge

Apr 16th, 2009, 11:50 AM

You spew nothing but useless junk, bring in arguments like tractors that don't have any revelence.
:confused: WTF? I'm the one speweing junk? LOL.... LMAO If by "you" you mean "ivica5683" then you'd be right, but I'm sure you don't mean that given as much as you've been wrong so far.

Show me something scientific, you can't. Show me something other than what GM claims.
Forget the stupid calculations, there's far more to fuel economy than what you've shown. Again you ignorantly head into something you know a little bit about and pretend that it's gospel :rolleyes: There's no need for ******** calculations when you can just see the proof in the pudding. What are the real-world results for these vehicles.

Drag is just one part of the equation. You also have to consider the thrust which is what the engine/trans/tyres are doing to propel the car. There are so many variables in there that it's nearly impossible to calculate in the simple fashion you've shown. Why do you think the EPA ratings exist? Why don't they just "show you something scientific" with a zillion calculations and equations? Because:
i. there are far more calculations involved than the stupid one-liner crap you posted; and,
ii. it's much easier to use an actual real-world test to show the same net result.

"Science" is not just about putting up one equation and claiming that as everything. Science is about the whole story, a huge portion of which you are totally being ignorant to and then defending with stating the fact that you are indeed being ignorant to it :rolleyes: News bulletin: science is not about ignorance. What you're posting is largely based in ignorance.

My only claim was that the heavy V6 can never get the same mileage as a light Si at highway cruising speeds.
And your only claim is baseless. You're claiming it based on drag and nothing else :rolleyes:

So I guess if we compared a car from 1982 with less drag to a vehicle from 2008 that has more drag, no matter what there is no way it could get better fuel economy? Just because of drag? No other things can be considered right? Just drag. :rolleyes:

Again who is spewing trash here??? I've had enough of "arguing" with you (this isn't really an argument because you're so clearly out to lunch it's not even funny)

If all that was important to fuel economy was drag, why would automakers spend anytime on anything other than decreasing drag to improve economy? I guess decades of work improving other things were all for naught! They all should have hired the all knowing ivica5683 because ivica5683 knows everything about fuel economy and would have told all these auto engineers that make hundreds of thousands about the super-secret of fuel economy: drag.

ROFL.

This is getting laughable. Ignorance turned into "science" based in ignorance, followed by more ignorance :lol:

I'm surprised that you, being as good as you are with that one calculation, hasn't engineered the supercar of the millenium with 500hp and 260MPG! :lol: :lol:

...

Wait can I stop laughing yet? :lol: Nope, not yet....

:lol:

Phew, okay there. I'm done laughing now. Back to reality.

stealth

Apr 16th, 2009, 11:58 AM

I wouldnt say I'm sick of the imports, but I personally have never thought any of the Honda's/Toyotas have ANY sex appeal at all...until you get in their top tier brands (Acura/lexus). Otherwise far too conservative looking for me (and Please dont post pics of taky modded body kits on Civics etc...thats even worse).
But they are popular cars and fairy well made (although I think they are also over-rated in that department as well).....just too much like something a teacher or accountant would drive. I miss the 90's Japanese Supercars....Mitsubvishi GTO/VR4, Supra TT, etc. Pretty much lost me after that. Those cars had the right balance of sportiness, power, and practicality (a 2+2 seating arrangement).

The Camaro looks like sex....I'd definitely consider it if the price were friendly.
The Challenger looks cool, but massively over priced, and looks like it might be a bear to drive, like its predecessor.

Thopse 2 companies need to come up with something between Camaro/Challenger and Corvette/Viper for me. I dont see why not, between the 2 companies they already have a thousand different models :)

I'm picky though...at this time in my life, I dont think a muscle car is me anymore. Truth be told theres only a couple cars I'm looking to buy right now....a G37C or a 2003 Porsche 911 Cab.

stealth

Apr 16th, 2009, 12:04 PM

airodus

Apr 16th, 2009, 12:08 PM

This whole damn thread is stupid.

We live in a free market. Each of us are free to purchase whatever we want.

Drivers have been voting with their dollars for at least the past two decades.

The fact that the Big 3 are tanking (and have been for some time) is the only empirical evidence about consumer preference that matters.

There are many other factors to a car companies success than just consumer preference. Frankly, the Big 3 would probably tank even if they sold all the cars in the world. They have a huge problem with their workers and union which just isn't as efficient the overseas automakers. Everyone has heard the stories of unionized 60 year old employees, making 80k/year to mop the floors (and probably doing a lousy job at that). Of all the concerns the Big 3 have right now, I think cars are somewhere on the bottom.

ivica5683

Apr 16th, 2009, 01:13 PM

:confused: WTF? I'm the one speweing junk? LOL.... LMAO If by "you" you mean "ivica5683" then you'd be right, but I'm sure you don't mean that given as much as you've been wrong so far.

Forget the stupid calculations, there's far more to fuel economy than what you've shown. Again you ignorantly head into something you know a little bit about and pretend that it's gospel :rolleyes: There's no need for ******** calculations when you can just see the proof in the pudding. What are the real-world results for these vehicles.

Drag is just one part of the equation. You also have to consider the thrust which is what the engine/trans/tyres are doing to propel the car. There are so many variables in there that it's nearly impossible to calculate in the simple fashion you've shown. Why do you think the EPA ratings exist? Why don't they just "show you something scientific" with a zillion calculations and equations? Because:
i. there are far more calculations involved than the stupid one-liner crap you posted; and,
ii. it's much easier to use an actual real-world test to show the same net result.

"Science" is not just about putting up one equation and claiming that as everything. Science is about the whole story, a huge portion of which you are totally being ignorant to and then defending with stating the fact that you are indeed being ignorant to it :rolleyes: News bulletin: science is not about ignorance. What you're posting is largely based in ignorance.

And your only claim is baseless. You're claiming it based on drag and nothing else :rolleyes:

So I guess if we compared a car from 1982 with less drag to a vehicle from 2008 that has more drag, no matter what there is no way it could get better fuel economy? Just because of drag? No other things can be considered right? Just drag. :rolleyes:

Again who is spewing trash here??? I've had enough of "arguing" with you (this isn't really an argument because you're so clearly out to lunch it's not even funny)

If all that was important to fuel economy was drag, why would automakers spend anytime on anything other than decreasing drag to improve economy? I guess decades of work improving other things were all for naught! They all should have hired the all knowing ivica5683 because ivica5683 knows everything about fuel economy and would have told all these auto engineers that make hundreds of thousands about the super-secret of fuel economy: drag.

ROFL.

This is getting laughable. Ignorance turned into "science" based in ignorance, followed by more ignorance :lol:

I'm surprised that you, being as good as you are with that one calculation, hasn't engineered the supercar of the millenium with 500hp and 260MPG! :lol: :lol:

...

Wait can I stop laughing yet? :lol: Nope, not yet....

:lol:

Phew, okay there. I'm done laughing now. Back to reality.

Yeah Yeah!!!!!

Still you don't say anything but empty words.

My only issues was with the highway ratings for V6 Camaro vs. The civic.

And yes you still are an ***** spewing BS.

These are the affecting your mileage. Figure out which ones you can control.

FrontalAreaOfCar 2.39 m^2
PercentGrade 2
VehicleMass 1720 kg

Drivetrain efficiency 0.9
Tire rolling resistance coefficient 0.015
Brake and Steering Resistance 0.003
DragCoefficient 0.38
AirDensity 1.2 kg/m^3 (1.2 grams/litre)

Wheel Radius 0.3 m
Final Drive Ratio 4.24
Fixed gear ratio 1.36
Overall Gear Ratio 5.7664

Tell me which ones the Camaro will be better in.
The smaller car will pretty much win in all of them.

Show me something with substance not just BS. You are a well spoken person with empty words.

ivica5683

Apr 16th, 2009, 01:16 PM

I am talking out of my a$$ this point cause I am lazy to open books, and look at some stuff, but to maintain cruising speed, engine still requires to do work, moving an object regardless of having drag coefficient lower, your engine still needs to work, we are talking about HORIZONTAL DISPLACEMENT, going on a slope is a different story. Crusing speed is great, but no road just goes downhill. ENGINE/etc makes a huge difference.

Your snowboard comment makes no sense, on a horizontal plan, you could be aerodynamic to the max, and you still can not move, without downward slope to offset gravity. And object at rest will not move without an external force, in snowboard it is DOWNHILL that builds up the acceleration, and being aerodynamic helps, but Weight also important as it is one of the force that helps(gravity+weight=greater downward Force). I don't see snowboarders going cross country skiing.

See post 76 for the snowboard comment. Nothing to do with you.

ES_Revenge

Apr 16th, 2009, 01:24 PM

Still you don't say anything but empty words.

:lol:

Sorry, I'm still too busy laughing from the above to bother replying to this except I will say:

And yes you still are an ***** spewing BS.
Personal insults are just about the lowest-brow form of argument. In fact they aren't an argument at all. They are just excuses for an argument for someone that is either 12 years old or younger, or has nothing else they can come up with. Pathetic.

Furthermore they are against forum rules, and hence you've been reported ;)

As I also have no tolerance for people that throw insults in this fashion and I have thus added you to my ignore list. Your nonsense posts are bad enough that I probably should have done this before, but I've had about enough now, this foolishness ends here. Don't bother replying (I won't see your next post or any more of the trash you continue to post on this forum). Goodbye.

CaptSmethwick

Apr 16th, 2009, 01:40 PM

This whole damn thread is stupid.

We live in a free market. Each of us are free to purchase whatever we want.

Drivers have been voting with their dollars for at least the past two decades.

The fact that the Big 3 are tanking (and have been for some time) is the only empirical evidence about consumer preference that matters.

I agree on the first 3 points but think your final statement is a stretch. There are a lot of reasons why the Detroit 3 are where they are financially today but they still sell a lot of vehicles despite a full range of products offered by a large number of some pretty worthy competitors. The fact that their business model and legacy costs are scaled to a volume of cars that that they can no longer hope to sell (especially in the face of an overall shrinking market and ever-stronger competitors) does not take away the worth of many of their products.

SkiD

Apr 16th, 2009, 02:27 PM

My only issues was with the highway ratings for V6 Camaro vs. The civic.

FFS, forget about your perceived notions/scientific formulas and accept the fact that in the 'real world' the Camaro has been tested by the EPA (not GM) and found to have the same fuel economy as the Civic on the highway. There is nothing to argue about, 29 MPG = 29 MPG.

ivica5683

Apr 16th, 2009, 02:33 PM

FFS, forget about your perceived notions/scientific formulas and accept the fact that in the 'real world' the Camaro has been tested by the EPA (not GM) and found to have the same fuel economy as the Civic on the highway. There is nothing to argue about, 29 MPG = 29 MPG.

From the Chevy website;

http://www.superchevy.com/features/camaro/sucp_0809w_1969_camaro_2010_camaro_comparison/index.html

Fuel economy avg. est. (EPA estimates for 2010) 13 est. combined 21 est. combined (17 city/26 hwy./21 comb. est. for V6 auto.; man. trans lower) (+60%)

The EPA is only an estimate.

26 hwy. Which is what I have been saying all along.

Engi-Nir

Apr 16th, 2009, 05:20 PM

From the Chevy website;

http://www.superchevy.com/features/camaro/sucp_0809w_1969_camaro_2010_camaro_comparison/index.html

Fuel economy avg. est. (EPA estimates for 2010) 13 est. combined 21 est. combined (17 city/26 hwy./21 comb. est. for V6 auto.; man. trans lower) (+60%)

The EPA is only an estimate.

26 hwy. Which is what I have been saying all along.

Dude, when was that numbers published, those were the original numbers GM thought it was back in July 2008.

The 2010 Camaro’s EPA mileage ratings are now official, and they leave little doubt that even the entry-level Camaro will be a force to be reckoned with. In its most fuel-efficient configuration, the 304-hp V-6 Camaro is rated at 18/29 mpg city/highway with the optional automatic transmission, while the standard manual is rated at 17/29 mpg.
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/03/epa-rates-2010-chevy-camaro-v6-at-29-mpg-on-highway.html

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/16/2010-chevrolet-camaro-rated-at-29-mpg-highway/4

KawaiiTentacleBeast

Apr 16th, 2009, 06:01 PM

From the Chevy website;

You really think that's the Chevy website? :lol:

Stupid Camaro gets the same mileage as the Civic but only has 130 more HP and about 30x as much torque. GOD DAMN GM WHEN WILL THEY MAKE A CAR I WANT!!!!!11.

alpaak

Apr 16th, 2009, 06:43 PM

From the National Post, March 20th,
"Closer to home, with a Transport Canada rating of 6.8 L/100 km, the Camaro V6 almost matches an Accord V6 for highway frugality.".:|

Kind of late for a vehicle with good mileage when the company could go bankrupt. Oh, well. Plenty of great new cars on the market. Look at Hyundai > quality is now par with Honda & Toyota. Price a Genesis sedan or coupe. Great value for your hard earned $.

Had GM and Chrysler not built junk they may have been able to avoid looming bankruptcy.

Japanese and Euro cars all the way!

CaptSmethwick

Apr 16th, 2009, 06:44 PM

Yeah, that's pretty amusing that anybody would present superchevy.com as the Chevy website and any of its data as official.

The official site is http://www.chevrolet.com/allnewcamaro/# and a press release here: http://media.gm.com/us/chevrolet/en/news/press_kits/10camaro/10_Chevrolet%20Camaro%20Specs.htm showing the est. city/hwy at 18 / 29 for the auto trans.

KorruptioN

Apr 16th, 2009, 06:54 PM

alpaak

Apr 16th, 2009, 07:06 PM

I love reading VW Jetta reviews, just so sad! Check out other years as well, same types of things.

http://www.carsurvey.org/reviews/volkswagen/jetta/2000/

Not built in Europe though quite close to home.

One of the comments in the survey is,
I guess the Mexican built German car isin't the same as the Jetta's of the past that were built in Germany.

Quality issues in Mexican VW plants have been remedied quite a while ago. Guess that's because North Americans aren't running the company.

golden

Apr 17th, 2009, 09:40 AM

I don't understand about all these debates on gas mileage. Yes, it's an important factor to people whom drives a lot, but it's not the entire story, otherwise, they should buy motorbikes or Smart car. To me, the decision would be based on a the whole product. Like one previous poster said, buyers vote with their $. The fall of big 3 is a clear indication that they don't have attractive products for the buyers. Anyway, there will always be people being die-hard fans of domestic, Japanese or European cars. Now, let's just see if the Amercian companies can survive and produce better products.

alpaak

Apr 18th, 2009, 01:56 PM

How come no one's mentioned the durability and toughness of the old Lada? A true affordable world car. Great gas mileage as well.:D
A salesman friend of mine once had a Lada 2101 and swore by it. It always got him to client meetings and presentations regardless of weather and conditions.

Quiggie

Apr 18th, 2009, 03:41 PM

I remember seeing Ladas on Canadian streets when I was a kid (they looked like Volvos) but then they disappeared and now I never see them any more.

I wouldn't mind the Russian brands entering the Canadian market, more competition can only be good.

boraturbo

Apr 18th, 2009, 04:10 PM

I Love my Infiniti.. I've owned 7 Japanese cars & 2 German cars.. Loved them all (except for my wife's civic, ZERO power but all around reliable ride).. I would NEVER own an American Car..

Avatar

Apr 18th, 2009, 04:44 PM

grab an American muscle car so you can step on it... and stop at a red light 2 seconds later. lol

LOL. One of my friends drives a manual Civic and he told me that American muscle car is good for going straight line. Just put it to D and step on gas. No brainer. Try to catch him in a city and Zig-zag road. He said that's what the Civic shines.

The point is.. any company can slap in a V6..V12..V24 engine to make it a muscle car and burn gas like hell. What makes Lotus special is that it has a 4 cylinder engine and still go fast.

supermikeboi

Apr 18th, 2009, 06:02 PM

i am fed up with american cars. i own 2 GM and 1 chrysler and i am fed up with all the problems i have with them. i'd say they had 20+ years to make there cars much more fuel efficient and better built cars but they choose not to adapt to customer preferences. just put GM and chrysler out of there misery and just go bankrupt.. tired of there poor cars.. my next car will be a japanese made and then i get to feel what a REAL car feels like.

zzz3

Apr 19th, 2009, 06:04 PM

wrong. these specimens are the very reason the big three are going bankrupt and dragging others in the economic downturn.

correction big two, why do people keep including ford? Also these cars are niche autos, except the mustang, and it would be silly for anyone to infer this is the reason that gm and chrysler are introuble.