problem with landlord. he is threatening legal actions...

[Forsaken_Angel]

so i moved into this room about 3 months ago. i never signed any kind of lease agreement, nor have i ever gotten any rent receipts and paid with cash each time. the guy was a complete dickhead and i really couldnt take his **** anymore so last week i decided to pack my stuff up and leave. i knew i would have no chance of getting my damage deposit back so i didnt even try. he emailed me saying that i owe him rent for this month and that if i dont pay him he is going to take "legal actions". i told him that i never signed a lease and that he has no proof i ever even rented a room from him and that damage deposits were mainly to cover no notice move outs. he replied saying that all the proof he needed was in my email and that hes is going to "come after me" now. im really not afraid of anything happening from it but was just curious if there is anything that he can do. his only proof of anything is from a hotmail account and its not like that can stand up in court or anything can it? anyone can make a hotmail account in any name....

[XxXSnake23XxX]

please refer to this thread:
http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=722173

[Kommander_KornFlakes]

Good luck on his tryin to get you, my friend's brand new car was stolen and cops didn't even want to come to take a report, they told him to fill-up a form at his nearest station, now this guy thinks they will care about him, you and $350 of rent?

[CheapScotsman]

While he always could take you to court or the rental tribunal or whatever ... and the court COULD rule in his favor ... its going to be tough without any agreement on amounts to be paid, conditions for renting, etc. HIs prospects are slim

You have already replied to him so I'd say you are done.

You could ignore him until the court order appears (that is what I would probably do)

You could always put a bit of pressure back on him ... Contact him and ask him "are you declaring this income with revenue canada?" and/or "has the city bylaws and zoning division has approved his "suites" for rental"?

[Bzji]

no contract, no legal document, screw him

[spf1971]

Good luck on his tryin to get you, my friend's brand new car was stolen and cops didn't even want to come to take a report, they told him to fill-up a form at his nearest station, now this guy thinks they will care about him, you and $350 of rent?

What does being sued for breech of contract have to do with the police? Other than absolutely nothing!

The OP has a verbal agreement with the landlord and is required to give at least 28 days days notice, whether the landlord is willing to go to the effort of suing is another issue but he has that power.

"If a tenant wants to leave

* A tenant must give their landlord a notice in writing if they plan to move out. This is called a notice oftermination. The date the tenant plans to move out is called the termination date.
* A daily or weekly tenant must give at least 28 days notice of termination. If renting by the week, the termination date must fall at the end of a week.
* A month to month tenant must give at least 60 days notice of termination. The termination date must fall at the end of a month. "
http://www.knpha.ca/ending_tenacy2.html

[ullyeus]

You owe him the money....so pay him? be an adult.

[jstaneon]

asking for a damage deposit is illegal. He owes you money.

[Forsaken_Angel]

While he always could take you to court or the rental tribunal or whatever ... and the court COULD rule in his favor ... its going to be tough without any agreement on amounts to be paid, conditions for renting, etc. HIs prospects are slim

You have already replied to him so I'd say you are done.

i replied with a hotmail account... i could see using a isp email account where my name is documented. i could always argue that its not my email account and that he made it up couldnt i? its basically his word against mine.

asking for a damage deposit is illegal. He owes you money.

how so? every place i have ever herd of renting requires a damage deposit.

[ullyeus]

asking for a damage deposit is illegal. He owes you money.

While I can't quite understand what this guy is saying..if I get the gist (that it's illegal for the landlord to ask/keep your deposit) then he is wrong...

landlords can keep your security deposit if you move out without notice (in some provinces it's 30 days, some 15, etc)

edit...or maybe he is saying he can't ask for one when he moves in? which is also totally wrong...

[ullyeus]

i replied with a hotmail account... i could see using a isp email account where my name is documented. i could always argue that its not my email account and that he made it up couldnt i? its basically his word against mine.


Again, I'd just pay it but I'm a standup kinda guy.

Can you proof that you lived somewhere else the last 3 months?

[spf1971]

i replied with a hotmail account... i could see using a isp email account where my name is documented. i could always argue that its not my email account and that he made it up couldnt i? its basically his word against mine.



how so? every place i have ever herd of renting requires a damage deposit.

Sure, but to do that you would have to declare in court it wasn't your email account. If it's proven that it is, now not only are you on the hook for the rent but you have also committed perjury.

[Forsaken_Angel]

Again, I'd just pay it but I'm a standup kinda guy.

Can you proof that you lived somewhere else the last 3 months?
i thought our justice system was based on the belief of innocent until proven guilty. why do i have to prove where i have lived for the past 3 months. and it wouldnt be hard to get a friend sayin they let me stay at there place...

oh and i gave him 2 months rent for a damage deposit which is against albertas rental laws. i dont care about that but i was only supposed to be there for 6 months. at most i would only have to pay him 1 months rent correct? but with no contract how does he hope to prove what i was paying and for how long i was supposed to be there? no proof = no case reguardless of wether or not i have already admitted i rented from him from an email...

[EmperorOfCanada]

Perhaps rather than just 'screwing the guy over' why not look into whether you have any legitimate legal reasons to move out. There must be exceptions to the 'give 28 days notice' rule, perhaps you fit into one of those exceptions.

Also like another previous poster mentioned, inform him that if he is going to be taking you to court that you would like to request the receipts for the months you DID pay, as well as something showing that he has your deposit (I am assuming that he legally has to provide you with a receipt?)

Try to keep communications in writing. Especially good if you can get him to gloat about keeping your damage deposit or not providing receipts etc.

[EmperorOfCanada]

i thought our justice system was based on the belief of innocent until proven guilty. why do i have to prove where i have lived for the past 3 months. and it wouldnt be hard to get a friend sayin they let me stay at there place...

oh and i gave him 2 months rent for a damage deposit which is against albertas rental laws. i dont care about that but i was only supposed to be there for 6 months. at most i would only have to pay him 1 months rent correct? but with no contract how does he hope to prove what i was paying and for how long i was supposed to be there? no proof = no case reguardless of wether or not i have already admitted i rented from him from an email...

I could be wrong on this but I think the burden of proof in criminal court is not the same as it is in civil court. Im sure someone else can correct me if I am wrong, or elaborate if i am right.

[tdott]

You should really have notified him that you planned to move out. This way you would have covered your ass.

Now that you didn't i think it justifies him keeping your deposit.
Other than that it is upto the courts. But courts usually do favour the Tentants over renters.

[spf1971]

i thought our justice system was based on the belief of innocent until proven guilty. why do i have to prove where i have lived for the past 3 months. and it wouldnt be hard to get a friend sayin they let me stay at there place...

oh and i gave him 2 months rent for a damage deposit which is against albertas rental laws. i dont care about that but i was only supposed to be there for 6 months. at most i would only have to pay him 1 months rent correct? but with no contract how does he hope to prove what i was paying and for how long i was supposed to be there? no proof = no case reguardless of wether or not i have already admitted i rented from him from an email...

Considering you live in Alberta "The Residential Tenancies Act requires a tenant in a monthly periodic tenancy to give a one month notice period of leaving to a landlord." http://tenant.landlordandtenant.org/movingoutfaq/notices.aspx?id=403

You have to prove that you provided him with 1 months notice of your intent to move out.

[Forsaken_Angel]

Now that you didn't i think it justifies him keeping your deposit.
Other than that it is upto the courts. But courts usually do favour the Tentants over renters.

like i said in my first post i didnt/dont expect to get my damage deposit and im not even going to try too. another thing. if he doesnt have a rented room registered with the province he has no case right? like you cant just decide to rent out a room. you have to go threw certain steps and paperwork no?

[Icedawn]

so i moved into this room about 3 months ago. i never signed any kind of lease agreement, nor have i ever gotten any rent receipts and paid with cash each time. the guy was a complete dickhead and i really couldnt take his **** anymore so last week i decided to pack my stuff up and leave. i knew i would have no chance of getting my damage deposit back so i didnt even try. he emailed me saying that i owe him rent for this month and that if i dont pay him he is going to take "legal actions". i told him that i never signed a lease and that he has no proof i ever even rented a room from him and that damage deposits were mainly to cover no notice move outs. he replied saying that all the proof he needed was in my email and that hes is going to "come after me" now. im really not afraid of anything happening from it but was just curious if there is anything that he can do. his only proof of anything is from a hotmail account and its not like that can stand up in court or anything can it? anyone can make a hotmail account in any name....

a) Civil, not criminal, big difference
b) I personally think my email communications that I have with tenants will hold up in court, not 100% sure, but fairly confident.
c) Personally, it's a pretty jerk move to just leave. If you're an adult going out into the world and making binding contracts, I say live up to your agreements. Even if he wouldn't necessarily be able to prove his allegations, it's not like you're suggesting he's wrong...

[Forsaken_Angel]

yeah i agree it is a pretty junk move to do. but he doesnt have a right to tell me what to do and belittle me whenever he feels like it. he treated me like ****, so im treating him like ****. i didnt give him notice for the only reason of him trying to evict my the second i did. i had no lease or any kind of agreement. i did what i felt was best for me

[tdott]

i didnt give him notice for the only reason of him trying to evict my the second i did.

If he had done so, you would have had reason to call the cops immediately. Covering your ass.....instead you left with your pants down, leaving him with some room to screw you.

But likely he wouldn't, so you should just move on. You must have had a verbal agreement, and in the obsence of a written contract the courts would default to whats in the tentants act.

[83_gemini]

I'm not a lawyer and I don't live in Alberta, but I know that:

1. Oral contracts are enforceable (including oral residential leases). This is clear from the definition of "residential tenancy agreement" in the Alberta legislation.
2. Residential Tenancy legislation generally requires the tenant gives notice before leaving (usually oral leases are deemed to be month to month). From the definition of "periodic tenancy" in the Alberta legislation you probably fit, and so the relevant termination provisions apply.
3. If the landlord brings you to court and sues you for breach of the lease (which could happen) you cannot lie about the existence of the contract. I know even less about criminal procedure then contracts, but suffice it to say admitting civil liability is not the same as incriminating oneself.

OTOH it is not clear the landlord complied with the s. 18 requirement to provide a "notice of landlord." If he didn't (or otherwise violated the Act, whether by demanding illegal deposits) and would prefer not to deal with that issue, suing you might be ill-advised (though I'm not sure if these issue could be successfully raised by you, or if you can use set-off and all that jazz).

Finally I'm not certain about the extent of the damages the landlord could claim. While there is clearly (both in the statute and at law) an obligation to mitigate, this doesn't mean the landlord might be able to claim more then a month's rent.

In any case the lesson is:
Don't breach contracts!

Regarding the burden of proof (for information, not advice):
The criminal standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt"--a very high standard
The civil standard is "on the balance of probabilities"--a rather lower standard (51% chance the landlord is right, he wins)

Finally while I suspect it is in fact a scare tactic, "legal" and "on paper" is not the same thing. You can do all kind of legally binding things orally (and not just assault!).

[weedb0y]

There is no proof of a contract. There is nothing legal on paper. HE CAN'T do anything.

And he isn't going to do anything for $350, if he was an ******* to you from day one, then he is going to remain an ******* and act like this eitherway. Move on, he isn't going to pursue $350.

Its just a scare tactic.

[ghostryder]

so i moved into this room about 3 months ago.

Was this a "shared accomodation" type of thing where you rented a room but shared the rest of the space?

If you rent a room in a house where
you share living quarters with the owner,
the Residential Tenancies Act does not
apply to you.


http://tenant.landlordandtenant.org/Downloads/documentloader.ashx?id=1844


http://www.qp.alberta.ca/574.cfm?page=R17P1.cfm&leg_type=Acts&isbncln=9780779737925

2(1) Subject to subsection (2), this Act applies only to tenancies of residential premises.

(2) This Act does not apply to

(a) a mobile home site as defined in the Mobile Home Sites Tenancies Act,

(b) premises occupied for business purposes with living accommodation attached and rented under a single agreement,

(c) rooms in the living quarters of the landlord, if the landlord actually resides in those quarters,


And if he was taking cash payments without providing receipts there is always the possibility that he is not declaring the income. You could give the friendly boys & girls at CRA a call.

[83_gemini]

If the Act doesn't apply (someone with better familiarity with Alberta law like say a lawyer would have to comment) that could make things more complicated, but it doesn't change the validity of the lease. Generally speaking a lease governed by the common law is actually less tenant friendly then leases covered by Residential Tenancies legislation.

But rather then grapple with our vague suppositions just look here:

http://tenant.landlordandtenant.org/home/default.aspx

[jstaneon]

While I can't quite understand what this guy is saying..if I get the gist (that it's illegal for the landlord to ask/keep your deposit) then he is wrong...

landlords can keep your security deposit if you move out without notice (in some provinces it's 30 days, some 15, etc)

edit...or maybe he is saying he can't ask for one when he moves in? which is also totally wrong...

damage deposit and security deposit are two different things.

security deposit is the last months rent. damage deposit is over and above one months rent. Legally, the landlord can only ask for an amount equal to one month's rent.

[jstaneon]

if you really want to stick it to this guy, look for the rules of rent abatement. If the living conditions are bad enough, then you can get all of your rent money paid back.

I am not %100 sure on this because I have never done it personally.

[batman321123]

If you're paying him in cash, he's probably not declaring the income. Just tell him you won't tell the CRA if he agrees to not pursuing this any further.

[HBP]

I wouldn't have even replied, dude is just trying to scare you into paying him.

[at1212b]

Just pay for whatever length you stayed, including prorrating any length stayed.

But it'll be extremely difficult for the landlord to back up anything else. Good luck to him.

[Heynow999]

It is nearly impossible to collect money from someone. He would waste ten times what you owe in time and fees trying to collect. He will not do it. End of story.

[ji_hyun_jun]

Do whatever you want, pay it or not. Either way, don't lie in court about the hotmail account or not living at his place, that's a stupid move.

[airmail]

Call his bluff.....Ask him for receipts for the past 3 months so you can claim it on your taxes. Then you will think about paying him for the 4th month. He still gets to keep the damage deposit...

[Frankie3s]

Tell him you'll be phoning the CRA if he doesn't provide you with rent receipts to which you can use to claim on your 2008/09 taxes. But not until it is the last resort. He will eventually go away.

[Nikita]

Good luck on his tryin to get you, my friend's brand new car was stolen and cops didn't even want to come to take a report, they told him to fill-up a form at his nearest station, now this guy thinks they will care about him, you and $350 of rent?

Uggh...if the LL is going to do anything it isn't going to be calling the cops, it's going to be taking the OP to the LT Tribunal.

While he always could take you to court or the rental tribunal or whatever ... and the court COULD rule in his favor ... its going to be tough without any agreement on amounts to be paid, conditions for renting, etc. HIs prospects are slim

You have already replied to him so I'd say you are done.

You could ignore him until the court order appears (that is what I would probably do)

You could always put a bit of pressure back on him ... Contact him and ask him "are you declaring this income with revenue canada?" and/or "has the city bylaws and zoning division has approved his "suites" for rental"?

I'm assuming you meant 'Notice of Hearing' or w/e they call it in Alberta. There can't be an order w/o a hearing and there can't be a hearing w/o the OP being served w. a notice of trial and given the opportunity to defend himself.

i replied with a hotmail account... i could see using a isp email account where my name is documented. i could always argue that its not my email account and that he made it up couldnt i? its basically his word against mine.



how so? every place i have ever herd of renting requires a damage deposit.

I'm not familiar with Alta. LT law but I'd be surprised if they allowed a damage deposit. What is allowed is a security deposit, which is your last month's rent (so you don't pull a middle-of-the-night move and not pay your last month's rent). Did you pay both a security and a damage deposit or just a deposit that you're assuming is a damage deposit but is really a security deposit/last month's rent? Cuz if he charged you any illegal fee, he's going into court with 'unclean heands' and most courts/tribunals will not rule in favour of someone going into court with unclean hands.

While I can't quite understand what this guy is saying..if I get the gist (that it's illegal for the landlord to ask/keep your deposit) then he is wrong...

landlords can keep your security deposit if you move out without notice (in some provinces it's 30 days, some 15, etc)

edit...or maybe he is saying he can't ask for one when he moves in? which is also totally wrong...

I think your confusion is coming from what seems to be an interchangeable use of the terms 'damage deposit' and 'security deposit', the former which is illegal (in Ontario), the latter which is the last month's rent.

i thought our justice system was based on the belief of innocent until proven guilty. why do i have to prove where i have lived for the past 3 months. and it wouldnt be hard to get a friend sayin they let me stay at there place...

oh and i gave him 2 months rent for a damage deposit which is against albertas rental laws. i dont care about that but i was only supposed to be there for 6 months. at most i would only have to pay him 1 months rent correct? but with no contract how does he hope to prove what i was paying and for how long i was supposed to be there? no proof = no case reguardless of wether or not i have already admitted i rented from him from an email...

Innocent till proven guilty? This isn't a criminal case, he's not getting charged with anything to be proven guilty of, this is a civil case. And in a civil case, even thought the burden of proof does lie on the LL, it's not like he has to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. The adjudicator only has to determine that one party's story is more likely than the other's to rule in their favour...on a balance of probabilities.

I could be wrong on this but I think the burden of proof in criminal court is not the same as it is in civil court. Im sure someone else can correct me if I am wrong, or elaborate if i am right.

You're right, the burden in criminal court is beyond a reasonable doubt, the burden in civil court is on a balance of probabilities (in layperson's terms, who's story is most likely true).

I'm not a lawyer and I don't live in Alberta, but I know that:

1. Oral contracts are enforceable (including oral residential leases). This is clear from the definition of "residential tenancy agreement" in the Alberta legislation.
2. Residential Tenancy legislation generally requires the tenant gives notice before leaving (usually oral leases are deemed to be month to month). From the definition of "periodic tenancy" in the Alberta legislation you probably fit, and so the relevant termination provisions apply.
3. If the landlord brings you to court and sues you for breach of the lease (which could happen) you cannot lie about the existence of the contract. I know even less about criminal procedure then contracts, but suffice it to say admitting civil liability is not the same as incriminating oneself.

OTOH it is not clear the landlord complied with the s. 18 requirement to provide a "notice of landlord." If he didn't (or otherwise violated the Act, whether by demanding illegal deposits) and would prefer not to deal with that issue, suing you might be ill-advised (though I'm not sure if these issue could be successfully raised by you, or if you can use set-off and all that jazz).

Finally I'm not certain about the extent of the damages the landlord could claim. While there is clearly (both in the statute and at law) an obligation to mitigate, this doesn't mean the landlord might be able to claim more then a month's rent.

In any case the lesson is:
Don't breach contracts!

Regarding the burden of proof (for information, not advice):
The criminal standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt"--a very high standard
The civil standard is "on the balance of probabilities"--a rather lower standard (51% chance the landlord is right, he wins)

Finally while I suspect it is in fact a scare tactic, "legal" and "on paper" is not the same thing. You can do all kind of legally binding things orally (and not just assault!).

The quoted part is what I earlier referred to as going into court 'with unclean hands' and yes that issue can successfully be raised by the OP IF he can prove it.

There is no proof of a contract. There is nothing legal on paper. HE CAN'T do anything.

Its just a scare tactic.

HE CAN sue indeed. A verbal contract is as enforceable as a written one, just harder to prove. YOU don't know what the LL can or can't prove so you're in no position to say he can't do anything.

if you really want to stick it to this guy, look for the rules of rent abatement. If the living conditions are bad enough, then you can get all of your rent money paid back.

I am not %100 sure on this because I have never done it personally.

A tenant sure can claim a rent abatement based on living conditions, but it's highly unlikely he'll get all of his rent money back.

It is nearly impossible to collect money from someone. He would waste ten times what you owe in time and fees trying to collect. He will not do it. End of story.

It is not impossible, I've done it, many have done it. End of story. Else, why do you think the courts are so damned busy all the time?

Do whatever you want, pay it or not. Either way, don't lie in court about the hotmail account or not living at his place, that's a stupid move.

+100! Either tell the truth or pay the man! If you lie in court, sorry to say, but I hope you're charged with perjury! Show some freakin respect dude, if not for the LL, at least for the system. Let the LT tribunal decide what's fair and PAY it!