Tankless Water Heater Rebate from Enbridge

[999jam]

Self explanatory, there is a tankless rebate from Enbridge for tankless water heaters purchased and installed or rented/leased from Mar. 2 2009 to Aug 31 2009. The rebate is $300 credited on your gas bill.

[beljevina]

I don't know about leasing options for a gas/tankless water heater, but I recall looking into this last year, and a family of 4 solution installation would come to at least $1500.

[DGirl]

Looked at tankless this weekend at Home Depot: $1100 on the shelf.
Nice to have a rebate option. Thanks Op.

[NorthernPaladin]

Thanks OP

Details:
https://portal-plumprod.cgc.enbridge.com/portal/server.pt?space=CommunityPage&control=SetCommunity&cached=true&CommunityID=875&PageID=0

Rebate Form:
https://portal-plumprod.cgc.enbridge.com/enbridge/files/coupons_300.pdf

[alkapone]

I looked into these tanks recently. My powervent need to be replaced.

The reviews are spotty? on these. Suggest you do a Google for reviews.
The colder the water the longer it takes.

It's my impression that installation will be about = the the cost of the unit.

Also an aside...there is new code for regular tanks...ie powervent. Old...black ABS...New a white tubing. This could add a lot depending on how your basement is finished.

I got a quote for a powervent from Sears...the high cost leaders.
Went with a local operator. Check out Home Depot...online as well.

[chimaican]

and if I'm correct, this would also qualify for the Home Renovation Tax Credit (HRTC)

[brucered]

I don't know about leasing options for a gas/tankless water heater, but I recall looking into this last year, and a family of 4 solution installation would come to at least $1500.

better off with the $659 60Gal tank from HD with $250 basic install, comes with lifetime wty on all parts and labour. the last hot water tank you will ever need to buy. gas or electric, pretty much same price.

[itsryan]

I dont know all the details, but consider that some tankless hot water tanks also qualify for a rebate under the ecoENERGY grants

http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/residential/personal/retrofit-homes/retrofit-qualify-grant.cfm

plus these rebate prices should be for the federal rebate amount with certain provinces topping the rebate up (iirc ontario matches the federal rebate i.e. $250 + $250 = $500)

NOTE: in order to qualify for the ecoENERGY rebates you must follow the energy audit program.

[brucered]

I dont know all the details, but consider that some tankless hot water tanks also qualify for a rebate under the ecoENERGY grants

http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/residential/personal/retrofit-homes/retrofit-qualify-grant.cfm

plus these rebate prices should be for the federal rebate amount with certain provinces topping the rebate up (iirc ontario matches the federal rebate i.e. $250 + $250 = $500)

NOTE: in order to qualify for the ecoENERGY rebates you must follow the energy audit program.

yeah, you need to pay $250 up front and spend 1-2 hrs doing a home evaluation 1st. if you don't, then you don't get any of those ecorebates. we had it done before our furnace, so now whatever we do to make our home more efficient (windows, doors, insulation, leaks, low flow toilets etc), we get ecorebates as well as whatever ones are available (mb hydro, 15% reno rebate etc).

[Pr0metheus]

this is awesome, we need a tankless water heater as our water gets cold often, and have two families in our house.

[applejuice]

had the energy audit done and can't decide...

75 gallon gas traditional @ $700 installed by direct energy + $30 per month

or

tankless @ $700 installed by direct energy + $30 per month (subtract $300 rebate)


those were the rental options

purchase = 2k for a 75 gallon tank installed
purchase = 2k for a tankless installed (subtract $300 enbridge rebate, subtract $400 Ontario/post audit rebate)

makes 1.3k for tankless look great...BUT....I have 3 apartments..2 x 1 bedroom + 1 x 2 bedroom = possibly 3 showers running at once in a 100 year old house with great water pressure...


anyone experinced know what to do?

[agiga]

I dont know all the details, but consider that some tankless hot water tanks also qualify for a rebate under the ecoENERGY grants

http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/residential/personal/retrofit-homes/retrofit-qualify-grant.cfm

plus these rebate prices should be for the federal rebate amount with certain provinces topping the rebate up (iirc ontario matches the federal rebate i.e. $250 + $250 = $500)

NOTE: in order to qualify for the ecoENERGY rebates you must follow the energy audit program.


Can you explain how this works further for someone who is just buying a tankless hot water system. I.e. how much would the rebates be considering all of this + the enbridge?

[yo_c]

applejuice,


The tankless supposedly reduces your energy costs 75% as opposed to traditional water tank heating.

I'm getting mine this week.

[jumbojones]

The tankless supposedly reduces your energy costs 75% as opposed to traditional water tank heating.Source?

[dealtaker]

applejuice,


The tankless supposedly reduces your energy costs 75% as opposed to traditional water tank heating.

I'm getting mine this week.

I would suspect that is an estimate, not a fact.
maybe something like
...
up to 75%

[polka]

yeah, you need to pay $250 up front and spend 1-2 hrs doing a home evaluation 1st. if you don't, then you don't get any of those ecorebates. we had it done before our furnace, so now whatever we do to make our home more efficient (windows, doors, insulation, leaks, low flow toilets etc), we get ecorebates as well as whatever ones are available (mb hydro, 15% reno rebate etc).

Would you explain about mb hydro, 15% reno rebate ? Never heard of it.
Thankyou in advance

[jbad]

ive had my tankless system for a year now.. no problems.. system is great.. its a Rinnai .. largest one they had before commercial version.. tops out at 140 degrees .. have it set to 130 .. (6 people in the house) .. the water heats up nearly instantly and lasts as long as you need it.. can have 3 showers going at once (@ 2.5 gpm) and pressure is good ..

if you have a house around 2000sqft .. you can set it to like 100 - 105 and not have a problem.. you save more money on gas then you do with water usage..

[Eduardo]

better off with the $659 60Gal tank from HD with $250 basic install, comes with lifetime wty on all parts and labour. the last hot water tank you will ever need to buy. gas or electric, pretty much same price.

Nope the lifetimewarranty is only on electric.

The installation for $250 is if they only have to deliver, attach and remove the old tank, my power vent replacement cost an additional $750.

They offer lifetime on all 12 year warranty tanks, but 12 year tanks only come in electric (or when I bought they did).

For the extra cost to install powervent, i should have switched to electric, $750 is a lot of electricity in Winnipeg, not to mention the tank cost 3 times as much and only has 6 year warranty (tank only not the vent).:mad:

[dgs]

So if you buy from HD at say 2000

You get

500 govt energy grant
200 gift cards from HD (assuming you use a HD store credit card)
150 tax credit
300 rebate from Enbridge and presumably lower energy bills going forward

Less 250 for the energy audit that let's you claim energy grants for various other things.

Is that right? If so this would be an awesome deal - just wish we were on gas for water heating - I would jump right on this.

[itsryan]

Can you explain how this works further for someone who is just buying a tankless hot water system. I.e. how much would the rebates be considering all of this + the enbridge?

from what i can tell, if you live in ontario you will able to get $300 bill credit from enbridge, $250 from the federal government, and $250 from the ontario government. though in order to qualify for both the $250 from the federal and ontario governments you will need to have an energy audit done on your house. the energy audit entails 2 appointments, one before any work has been completed (about 2hrs long and about $300-$350 - though there is a $150 rebate upon completion) then within 18 months you have to complete all work that will be counted and have a 2nd audit done (not sure the time, but should be around the same amount though the cost ive been told is ~$150). even if you only do the hotwater tank you should be about equal, though it depends on various source. for more details look in your area for someone that does the audits and they will answer all your questions. also look at the available rebates, if there are things that you are/are planning on doing then its almost a no brainer.

Would you explain about mb hydro, 15% reno rebate ? Never heard of it.
Thankyou in advance

not sure about the mb hydro but im guessing is something from the manitoba hydro that is similar to the enbridge rebate here. the 15% reno rebate i assume is the reference to the htrc (home renovation tax credit) passed in this years budget

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/gncy/bdgt/2009/fqhmrnvtn-eng.html

[Kannna]

ive had my tankless system for a year now.. no problems.. system is great.. its a Rinnai .. largest one they had before commercial version.. tops out at 140 degrees .. have it set to 130 .. (6 people in the house) .. the water heats up nearly instantly and lasts as long as you need it.. can have 3 showers going at once (@ 2.5 gpm) and pressure is good ..

if you have a house around 2000sqft .. you can set it to like 100 - 105 and not have a problem.. you save more money on gas then you do with water usage..

Looks like yours is GAS, correct? The electirc ones are good for only 2 simultaneous uses (say 2 people bath, or one bath and one washing machine etc.).

[brucered]

Nope the lifetimewarranty is only on electric.

The installation for $250 is if they only have to deliver, attach and remove the old tank, my power vent replacement cost an additional $750.

They offer lifetime on all 12 year warranty tanks, but 12 year tanks only come in electric (or when I bought they did).

For the extra cost to install powervent, i should have switched to electric, $750 is a lot of electricity in Winnipeg, not to mention the tank cost 3 times as much and only has 6 year warranty (tank only not the vent).:mad:

i did not know the Lifetime was only on the Electric, i'm not sure if they come in both, i was looking at Electric to get rid of my chimney. my inlaws had the Lifetime electric put in (replacing a gas one) and it was $1200 after all was said and done. not bad for a lifetime tank.

[brucered]

Would you explain about mb hydro, 15% reno rebate ? Never heard of it.
Thankyou in advance

the MB Hydro rebate is the rebate on the hieff furnace (not the hot water tank). we had our furnace only done, so we'll get $245 back from MY Hydro, , $500 from the eco-rebate because we had our home inspected 1st (they do a followup inspection) and we'll get 15% back after the 1st $1K on our furnace.

Costco.ca has 1 tankless system:
http://www.costco.ca/Common/Search.aspx?whse=BCCA&topnav=&search=tankless&N=0&Ntt=tankless&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-CA

[Gryphon]

My 2 cents.
The size of tanklss water heater may matter. But not as much as the manufacturer boasts.
I bought my new house last year. The builder installed Rinnai R53i (Direct Energy Rental). I could pay more to get a higher model R85i. As specified by the manufacturer, R53i can provide up to 5.3galon/min hot water, R85i can provide up to 8.5galon/min hot water. So R85i can provide 30% more hot water? Wrong, at least not in Canada. Both values are for 35F degrees temperature rise only. In Canada, the incoming water temperature is about 45F degrees in winter. To get hot water of 120 degrees, i.e. 75 degrees temperature rise, both R53i and R85i could only provide 4 galon/min water flow. Both perform same in winter! Why? because the water flow is limited by the natural gas supply. Both R53i and R85i require same min incoming gas pressure (15,000BTU). So I didn't pay the premium for R85i which could only perform a little bit better in summer. This year Direct Energy replaced the R53i by R75i and charged more, but the water flow at 75 degrees temperature rise is same - 4 galon/min. I just laughed.
In a word, don't be fooled by the numbers.
http://www.rinnaisolutions.com/documents/1240101.pdf
http://www.rinnai.us/documentation/downloads/R-CNWH-E-12r5_LS_Series.pdf

Second, your installation doesn't meet the Ontario Building Code. Effective Sept. 1, 2004, all water heaters replaced or installed are required to have an “anti-scald” device installed. For tankless water heater, you need to limit the temperature no more than 120 degrees.
http://www.pui.ca/Rental_Services/Rental_Water_Heaters/Anti-Scald_Device_Now_Mandatory.htm

BTW, I used buy-out option and paid Direct Energy $2436 (tax included) for the new R53i in 2008. This year, the buy-out price for R75i is $3000+tax.

Sorry, seems off-topic.

ive had my tankless system for a year now.. no problems.. system is great.. its a Rinnai .. largest one they had before commercial version.. tops out at 140 degrees .. have it set to 130 .. .

[BTweee]

can someone who has already done this renovation give me a brief run down on how the installation works?? Does it take a few days, or is it a single day job? Are there any limitations for the tankless heater installation or can any home have one??

thanks.

[breakfasteatre]

When i was getting a quote for a furnace, i had inquired about a tankless hot water heater as well. I was told that living in newmarket, that the hard water ruins the water heater.

Any thoughts on this?

[rviebrock]

When i was getting a quote for a furnace, i had inquired about a tankless hot water heater as well. I was told that living in newmarket, that the hard water ruins the water heater.

Any thoughts on this?

Get a softner!

[rviebrock]

I live outside ottawa in a 2 yr old house, custom built. I wanted a tankless since the start, not only do I gain about 7 sq.ft. of my basement back but the money I save in my gas bill is amazing. We have a Tagagi unit (don't quote me on spelling). Installed in a new house was $1400 included vent kit.

Never had problems with hot water, takes a little longer to heat up because our well water is very cold (about 8-10 degress C). Plan on getting a storage tank to pre warm it to room temp. Pressure is always good.

I recommend tankless to anyone who needs a new one.

Costco also carries tankless systems, never looked into the price, as I already have one.

[BushCaddy]

I'm sure everyone is already aware, but you need to be careful about expecting a refund with the new Home Renovation Tax Credit (HRTC).

The HRTC is a "Non-Refundable Tax Credit", which means that you CAN'T claim it if you are already expecting a refund. IE: it is only useful if you expect to owe money on your taxes next year.

Also, some of these gas instant-hot water tanks require a larger natural gas pipe be installed, which will also add to the cost.

[sc888888]

makes 1.3k for tankless look great...BUT....I have 3 apartments..2 x 1 bedroom + 1 x 2 bedroom = possibly 3 showers running at once in a 100 year old house with great water pressure...


You probably need a fairly large unit, 200K BTU unit in order to feed 3 showers. Don't forget other factors such as kitchen, laundry and tap also impact the requirement.

[Netcruzer]

I'm sure everyone is already aware, but you need to be careful about expecting a refund with the new Home Renovation Tax Credit (HRTC).

The HRTC is a "Non-Refundable Tax Credit", which means that you CAN'T claim it if you are already expecting a refund. IE: it is only useful if you expect to owe money on your taxes next year.

Also, some of these gas instant-hot water tanks require a larger natural gas pipe be installed, which will also add to the cost.

Wow, really? That's terrible! We just bought a house and have been keeping the receipts for everything we buy to add up at the end of the year. We usually both get refunds on our taxes each year, so does that mean we will not get any HRTC money back? This will piss off a ton of people next tax season, this is the first I've heard of it.

[sc888888]

can someone who has already done this renovation give me a brief run down on how the installation works?? Does it take a few days, or is it a single day job? Are there any limitations for the tankless heater installation or can any home have one??

thanks.

I have my furnace and tankless heater replaced in a day (8 hours) . It is installed by professional installer. To me it seems fairly straight forward. Open wall to install exhaust pipe, hang the unit on basement wall, connect water and gas. Every installation is different so this can only be a rough guide.

I don't think there are any limitations for tankless. You do need a larger 3/4" cold water feed and larger gas feed.

[bririp]

We do several dozen tankless installs per year and have had no complaints. The main reason for this is we take time to educate the customer about what to expect.

You "CAN" save "UPTO" 50-70% of your energy costs if you keep your same usage pattern. For example, with a tank, your 16 year old daughter runs out of hot water and turns the shower off. If the hot water never ends, and she decides to take an extra hour, you won't see the same savings. If you don't change your usage, there is great savings to be had.

In regards to installation, there are several factors which can change that cost ie. Gas pipe sizing: Depending on the rest of the appliances in your house, you will probably need at least 1" pipe coming from the meter to the furnace. A tankless water heater usually takes 3/4" pipe inlet and uses approx. 200,000 btu while working. That is 2-3 times the gas as most of your furnaces.

Venting: Depending on the system you get, venting can be quite expensive, upto $40-$50/foot. It is best to have the tankless installed on an outside wall where the standard vent kits will be more than enough, and are usually included in the purchase price.

Plumbing: For the most part people will end up putting the new tankless in the same position as your old tank, or within a few feet of this. If this is the case there shouldn't be an extra charge. We include plumbing upto 6' from the current location, any longer will be extra.

There are several brands you can go with ie. Rinnai, Noritz, Navien, Bosch etc. I can get, sell, and install all of them but I suggest going with the Rinnai units. 85% of the units we install are the rinnai brand and they have been great, not 1 single problem so far. They come with a 12 year warranty on all parts and have amazing customer service.

With this much interest, I would be willing to set up ************************************

About the Eco audit. If you are only planning on doing a tankless in the next 18 months, it still makes sense to do the audit. I offer the service of bringing in an auditor at the same time as install to save you time ( you still pay for the audit, but I can arrange it). It will cost you $300 net for the two audits, and you will get $500 back, a net rebate of $200, better than nothing.

In regards to hard water: When we plumb these systems, we use special plumbing kits that allow for easy flushing of the system. It is suggested to do this once a year, but if you have hard water you can do this more frequently. Household Vinegar is what is suggested and works great.

Feel free to PM me with any questions and I will do my best to help you out.

Brian
************
************
brooklinheating@gmail.com

[brucered]

I'm sure everyone is already aware, but you need to be careful about expecting a refund with the new Home Renovation Tax Credit (HRTC).

The HRTC is a "Non-Refundable Tax Credit", which means that you CAN'T claim it if you are already expecting a refund. IE: it is only useful if you expect to owe money on your taxes next year.

Also, some of these gas instant-hot water tanks require a larger natural gas pipe be installed, which will also add to the cost.

you sure about that? that seems like discrimination to me. we always get a refund as we have kids, pay extra taxes and have lots of charitable donations. so because we give to charities etc, we won't get any extra back for our furnace?

[agiga]

I'm sure everyone is already aware, but you need to be careful about expecting a refund with the new Home Renovation Tax Credit (HRTC).

The HRTC is a "Non-Refundable Tax Credit", which means that you CAN'T claim it if you are already expecting a refund. IE: it is only useful if you expect to owe money on your taxes next year.

Also, some of these gas instant-hot water tanks require a larger natural gas pipe be installed, which will also add to the cost.

This is the first I've heard of this. Are you sure, this credit only applies to those who owe taxes vs. those who are getting a refund anyways?

[michelb]

I'm sure everyone is already aware, but you need to be careful about expecting a refund with the new Home Renovation Tax Credit (HRTC).

The HRTC is a "Non-Refundable Tax Credit", which means that you CAN'T claim it if you are already expecting a refund. IE: it is only useful if you expect to owe money on your taxes next year.

...

That's not how 'non-refundable tax credits' work. It just means that you'll get a refund credit for the amount AT THE LOWEST MARGINAL TAX RATE (e.g. 15% or something) and that will get applied to the taxes owing or refunded. E.g. a $500 non-refundable tax credit will give you $75 off your taxes.

[Netcruzer]

He's correct. the HRTC is a non-refundable tax credit. What a joke, for the amount of media coverage and advertising the HRTC is getting, it's become a marketing program to have people spend money on their house. Most of them, including me, will not get the tax credit if you usually get a tax refund. I'm still going to keep my receipts for stuff I buy for the house, but I'm glad I know about this now before I spend thousands thinking I'd get some back.

The Home Energy audit is a much better program, I just wish it had more than 18 months to do all the upgrades. At least with the fed and provincial energy audit grants I get money back, real money not tax credits. Unless you want to burst my bubble on this program too.

[kellidotca]

I've been going back and forth on this tankless this.. it's driving me crazy.. i currently have a hot water tank, rented, and only use about $40 a month in water..the tank is $10 a month to rent..

What i'd save compared to what i spend.. it'd probably cost me MORE in the long run.. although i did have my audit a year ago, so i have to make up my mind within the next few months.

I would like to own my tank outright.. but i have little incentive to do so considering it's just me using water =)

[999jam]

ok, so i got my tankless installed. i gotta say, it's really sweet. the install guy was wicked. he also did my furnace, a/c, hrv, and steam humidifier all in one install. 2 days. he explained the correct usage of the tankless to me. In order for it to work to it's fullest potential, you are supposed to set the temperature on the tankless to a temperature at which you can shower without using the cold. this is because, the use of the cold deminishes the water pressure. i seriously appreciated this guy and his apprentice. they took the time to answer all my questions and explain stuff to me while they were installing. i would highly recommend them to anyone living around the toronto durham area. http://www.naturalchoiceonline.ca/

[sc888888]

... both R53i and R85i could only provide 4 galon/min water flow...

The R53 can only deliver 3.1g/min as compare to the R85 can deliver 3.8g/min


Both perform same in winter! Why? because the water flow is limited by the natural gas supply. Both R53i and R85i require same min incoming gas pressure (15,000BTU).

15,000BTU is the MININUM gas requirement. When the unit is at full blast (i.e. shower running), the R53 needs 150,000BTU and the R85 needs 180,000 BTU. That extra 30,000BTU get you an bit extra water flow.

For people that consider installing a tankless heater, also get a UPS (a small 600VA should be sufficient). No power = No hot water does not matter how short is the outage.

[andrew-4ce]

He's correct. the HRTC is a non-refundable tax credit. What a joke, for the amount of media coverage and advertising the HRTC is getting, it's become a marketing program to have people spend money on their house. Most of them, including me, will not get the tax credit if you usually get a tax refund. I'm still going to keep my receipts for stuff I buy for the house, but I'm glad I know about this now before I spend thousands thinking I'd get some back.



I see nothing about this on the gov website:
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/gncy/bdgt/2009/fqhmrnvtn-eng.html#q4

:confused:

[BushCaddy]

From the Canada Revenue Agency Website:
"The proposed HRTC is a non-refundable tax credit for work performed or goods acquired in respect of an eligible dwelling."

I couldn't find the definition on the CRA website, but from another Canadian site:
"A non-refundable tax credit can only be used to reduce federal or provincial/territorial taxes payable to zero"

Now, I'm no tax expert, and I could be wrong, but I read this to mean that you can't use this credit to increase the amount of your refund.

Obviously I'd talk to a tax advisor to be sure.

[andrew-4ce]

Booo! Looks like you are right!

[bubba308]

I had a tankless installed a year and a half ago and love it. Pros: never run out of hot water, saving of space in the furnace room, more environmentally friendly, monthly savings on gas (though I can't confirm that as we had our furnaces replaced at the same time). Cons: water takes slightly longer to heat up, you may not get hot water if it's not turned up enough (i.e. if the water flow doesn't cause the tankless to kick in), extra upfront costs, and no hot water if there is no power. My decision process was pretty easy as I was renting two tanks from Enbridge (about $30/month), and one of them died. When i called Enbridge to replace it, they said I had to get a new chimney liner for venting purposes because of new building codes. I had a guy come in and give me an estimate of $1,000 for the new chimney liner. We had a Rinnai installed and (touch wood) have had no issues. I remember when I was researching it a year and a half ago, I couldn't find any solid reviews of tankless heaters in general, and some reviews of the Bosch unit on Home Depot's site weren't so positive, but I can say that i have had no regrets since getting ours installed. Of course, outside of North America, these things are used all the time.

[vinaymal]

I'm sure everyone is already aware, but you need to be careful about expecting a refund with the new Home Renovation Tax Credit (HRTC).

The HRTC is a "Non-Refundable Tax Credit", which means that you CAN'T claim it if you are already expecting a refund. IE: it is only useful if you expect to owe money on your taxes next year.

Also, some of these gas instant-hot water tanks require a larger natural gas pipe be installed, which will also add to the cost.

OK Bushcandy .. let's not get carried away.

It doesnt work like this. Non refundable tax credit means that you cant get tax back that you havent paid in the first place. How much refund at the end of the year doesnt have anything to do with it. If you have income and have tax with-held at the source then you should be fine and will get a refund for this.

[DeannaP]

I had a tankless installed a year and a half ago and love it. Pros: never run out of hot water, saving of space in the furnace room, more environmentally friendly, monthly savings on gas (though I can't confirm that as we had our furnaces replaced at the same time). Cons: water takes slightly longer to heat up, you may not get hot water if it's not turned up enough (i.e. if the water flow doesn't cause the tankless to kick in), extra upfront costs, and no hot water if there is no power. My decision process was pretty easy as I was renting two tanks from Enbridge (about $30/month), and one of them died. When i called Enbridge to replace it, they said I had to get a new chimney liner for venting purposes because of new building codes. I had a guy come in and give me an estimate of $1,000 for the new chimney liner. We had a Rinnai installed and (touch wood) have had no issues. I remember when I was researching it a year and a half ago, I couldn't find any solid reviews of tankless heaters in general, and some reviews of the Bosch unit on Home Depot's site weren't so positive, but I can say that i have had no regrets since getting ours installed. Of course, outside of North America, these things are used all the time.

Tanklesses are great for blackouts. All you need is a small battery backup for it - the same type as you would use for a PC. The Rinnai only uses a maximum of 100 watts of electricity for the exhaust fan, electronic ignition and digital keypad.

Bosch has had several recalls. Rinnai's have the best reputation in the industry. They've been manufacturing them for more than 50 years.

Savings are typically 30-50% off the monthly water heating costs. For a typical family of 4 this equates to approx. $20 per month off your gas bill. If you are converting from an electric tank to a gas tankless, the savings would be twice that or more per month.

[Purevector]

Please, don't post tax advice/information unless you know what you are talking about, otherwise confusion arises.

Non-Refundable Tax Credits are used to reduce your TOTAL tax owing to a minimum of $0.00. But cannot lower the TOTAL below $0.00. In other words, you cannot get away with paying no tax and receiving a refund from the government (ie. negative taxation).

NRTC's are calculated as: Value*0.15=Tax Credit (as of 2009)

So, suppose your employer takes $15,000 out of your pay for taxes (and your total tax payable is also $15,000), and you have a total of $1000 Non-refundable tax credits, you will get a $1000 refund when you file your taxes.

However, suppose you are self-employed and don't pay taxes until end-of-year, and you manage to (somehow) have a total of $16,000 Non-Refundable Tax Credits (Which means you actually wrote off $106,666) and have a total tax owing of $15000. In this case, you will not pay any tax, but you will NOT receive the extra $1000 (15000-16000) from the government.

Ok, I hope that clears it up... BTW, the transit pass credit is also a NRTC.

[DeannaP]

I've been going back and forth on this tankless this.. it's driving me crazy.. i currently have a hot water tank, rented, and only use about $40 a month in water..the tank is $10 a month to rent..

What i'd save compared to what i spend.. it'd probably cost me MORE in the long run.. although i did have my audit a year ago, so i have to make up my mind within the next few months.

I would like to own my tank outright.. but i have little incentive to do so considering it's just me using water =)

Right now you're wasting money in gas to keep a big tank of hot water hot 24 hours a day when you use very little hot water as a single person. It's like leaving your car running overnight to drive to work in the morning.

Your savings come in standby heat loss. The less hot water you use, the more you save....because you're only paying for the water you actually use. And they don't lose their efficiency like tanks do.

[rviebrock]

If you owe money at the end of the year, the HRTC will bring your payment down, to a maximum of zero owing. You will not switch from owing to refund based on the HRTC refund. It is a non-refundable and will only help reduce your balance owing. TRUST ME! dad works for government.

The reason this whole HRTC was brought into affect was so that more money would be spent and boost the economy. Can't really boost the economy if the government has to fork out an additional $1350 to everyone who does renovations. (i know not everyone will get $1350 back, but it doesn't take long to add up to $10,000).

Yes I agree this will screw alot of people come next March / April.

Also, employers have to deduct a minimum amount of tax from your payroll.

The best thing to do in my opion, if you can, is talk to your HR person and see if they can reduce your payroll deduction if you know you are going to do renovations. Or if you have the chance to receive bonuses without being taxed. Or take money out of RSPs (if there worth anything) and use those to pay for renovations. The government withholds about 10-15% of tax owing on RSP withdrawls, you'll have to pay extra come march but hopefully the HRTC will offset that, thus you are not paying full tax on the RSP withdrawl.

Good luck to all, and let the accounts make all the money next year.

[sc888888]

... outside of North America, these things are used all the time.

They are mature product. I have used these tankless heater running on propane in Asia 30 years ago. I think they are good for cottage too.

[rviebrock]

Please, don't post tax advice/information unless you know what you are talking about, otherwise confusion arises.

So, suppose your employer takes $15,000 out of your pay for taxes (and your total tax payable is also $15,000), and you have a total of $1000 Non-refundable tax credits, you will get a $1000 refund when you file your taxes.



Does this not contradict what you said? or are non-refundable tax credits calculated before your payroll deductions are applied?

If I owe $15000 in tax at the end of the year and get a $1000 HRTC, and payroll deducted $15000 in tax, from what you said in your post I would get $0 refund.

[Purevector]

Does this not contradict what you said? or are non-refundable tax credits calculated before your payroll deductions are applied?

If I owe $15000 in tax at the end of the year and get a $1000 HRTC, and payroll deducted $15000 in tax, from what you said in your post I would get $0 refund.

Don't confuse payroll deductions with total tax payable. If you owe $15000 in tax, and payroll deductions were also $15000 you would get the $1000 HRTC back after you file your taxes.

However, suppose you only make very little, say below the personal allowance, and therefore don't pay any tax. In this case, even if you applied for a $1000 HRTC, you would NOT get any money, as your total tax payable is already $0.00.

Basically, Non-Refundable credits reduce your total tax payable down to a min of $0.00, but not below.

[kellidotca]

Right now you're wasting money in gas to keep a big tank of hot water hot 24 hours a day when you use very little hot water as a single person. It's like leaving your car running overnight to drive to work in the morning.

Your savings come in standby heat loss. The less hot water you use, the more you save....because you're only paying for the water you actually use. And they don't lose their efficiency like tanks do.

Sorry.. i should have mentioned it's electric tank.. most of my research had been done on renting a tankless system.. which costs about $30 per month. Right now my electric costs $10 per month.. i'd have to save more than $20 per month in actual energy costs in order to make this worth it.. which i don't think i would.

Perhaps buying it outright would be more advantageous, but requires more up front cash.

It's a tough decision here.

[hyperactiveme]

I am with kellidotca, not sure if it's worth it. so , my house is 5 years old. So would it be of great value to switch over to tankless. There are six of us in the house. Almost never shower at the same time, well...maybe the wife and I:lol:

HWT is already powervented if that helps.

[rviebrock]

Don't confuse payroll deductions with total tax payable. If you owe $15000 in tax, and payroll deductions were also $15000 you would get the $1000 HRTC back after you file your taxes.

However, suppose you only make very little, say below the personal allowance, and therefore don't pay any tax. In this case, even if you applied for a $1000 HRTC, you would NOT get any money, as your total tax payable is already $0.00.

Basically, Non-Refundable credits reduce your total tax payable down to a min of $0.00, but not below.

Thank you, clarified. I guess it has been so long since I didn't owe any tax.

[DeannaP]

Sorry.. i should have mentioned it's electric tank.. most of my research had been done on renting a tankless system.. which costs about $30 per month. Right now my electric costs $10 per month.. i'd have to save more than $20 per month in actual energy costs in order to make this worth it.. which i don't think i would.

Perhaps buying it outright would be more advantageous, but requires more up front cash.

It's a tough decision here.

If you're converting from an electric tank to a gas tankless, your overall energy savings in dollars would be 50%. Gas costs 1/3 of electric on a BTU basis. In your situation, you would be saving approximately $30-40 a month.

Buying is always a better return on investment. If you're planning on being in the home for 6+ years, it's well worth it. These systems rarely require service or maintenance for their 20+ year lifespan. Just make sure you get a qualified installer for the job.

Check out ************

[alkapone]

Originally Posted by breakfasteatre
When i was getting a quote for a furnace, i had inquired about a tankless hot water heater as well. I was told that living in newmarket, that the hard water ruins the water heater.

Any thoughts on this?

Response
Get a softner!

ME...good chance he/she has one. Water in Stouffville quite hard...and it appears many/most people have water softeners. Markham on the other hand has softer water.

[gmark2000]

I am with kellidotca, not sure if it's worth it. so , my house is 5 years old. So would it be of great value to switch over to tankless. There are six of us in the house. Almost never shower at the same time, well...maybe the wife and I:lol:

HWT is already powervented if that helps.
If you don't plan on living in your house more than five years, then you won't recoup your costs. The tankless water heater won't add any more value to your home.

[DeannaP]

I am with kellidotca, not sure if it's worth it. so , my house is 5 years old. So would it be of great value to switch over to tankless. There are six of us in the house. Almost never shower at the same time, well...maybe the wife and I:lol:

HWT is already powervented if that helps.

If you have a powervented tank chances are better that you can be retrofitted with tankless.

The benefit of tankless with 6 ppl in the house is that you never have to worry about running out of hot water. You can have one shower after another after another, and never run out of hot water. And again, you only heat the water you actually use. Plus you save on space because they're small and mounted on the wall. And they're safer - no running pilot light, sealed combustion chamber, no risk of leaking or flooding the basement.

The environmental impact of a tank is reason enough to switch. When you switch to a tankless water heater, you eliminate up to 1,000 pounds of polluting carbon dioxide emissions from the atmosphere every year.

They're just the most efficient way to go.

[skalynuik]

Right now we rent a 40 gal electric unit from Reliance Home Comfort, we pay $10.00 a month for rental, we have a gas furnace, so a gas supply is not trouble.
We are only 3 adults in the home, to which 2 like showers (twice a week for each) and 1 likes baths (about 3 to 4 a week), we have 1 washing machine used about once every 2 weeks (4 loads cold/cold), and dishwasher (used about once a week full).
So my question is, would I save switching to a Tankless system?
I live in Sutton and the water can be cold in the winter, coming from a deep pitless well, ok its cold in summer too.
Any advise would be nice.
Thank-you
Steve

[DeannaP]

Originally Posted by breakfasteatre
When i was getting a quote for a furnace, i had inquired about a tankless hot water heater as well. I was told that living in newmarket, that the hard water ruins the water heater.

Any thoughts on this?

Response
Get a softner!

ME...good chance he/she has one. Water in Stouffville quite hard...and it appears many/most people have water softeners. Markham on the other hand has softer water.

If you live in a hard water zone, yes, use a softener. Also, run vinegar through it once a year if you want to ensure there is no lime or calcium buildup within the copper pipes. However, the Rinnai system will flash an error code on the front of the tank if there is any buildup, before it damages itself.

Tanks only last about half as long in a hard water zone and they lose their efficiency much faster. This is because the sediment builds up on the bottom of the tank, so that the gas has to go through that sediment to heat the water. Eventually the sediment rusts the bottom of the tank from the inside out, resulting in a leak - or the tank bottoms out completely causing a flood. Most rental companies charge a premium for tank or tankless rentals in hard water zones.

[chrome_boy]

Please, don't post tax advice/information unless you know what you are talking about, otherwise confusion arises.

Non-Refundable Tax Credits are used to reduce your TOTAL tax owing to a minimum of $0.00. But cannot lower the TOTAL below $0.00. In other words, you cannot get away with paying no tax and receiving a refund from the government (ie. negative taxation).



This is correct.

[whoisthis_95]

I've had one for over a year. You will likely realize an effective 5-10% reduction in your bill. In my personal case, it came out to an 8% reduction, and I have a friend that is closer to 6%. It is true that tankless systems are more efficient but there is no way you will even get close to 75%.

applejuice,


The tankless supposedly reduces your energy costs 75% as opposed to traditional water tank heating.

I'm getting mine this week.

[BushCaddy]

OK, I give. Looks like I screwed up.
It appears that you can get a refund, you just can't lower your total taxes payable below $0.
Sorry for the confusion, but thanks for clearing this up for me.
Time to spend on home improvemnts!

[gocolts]

Can anybody recommend a supplier in Ottawa?

[DeannaP]

I've had one for over a year. You will likely realize an effective 5-10% reduction in your bill. In my personal case, it came out to an 8% reduction, and I have a friend that is closer to 6%. It is true that tankless systems are more efficient but there is no way you will even get close to 75%.

Agreed. I don't know who came up with 75%. It's typically 30-50%. 50% if you're converting from an electric tank to a gas tankless. This is based on a unit with 82% efficiency at a 70 degree temperature rise.

Of course, these approximations only apply when you don't increase your hot water usage. Don't expect to save if you're using twice as much hot water as before.

A typical family of 4 will save about $20 a month off the gas bill at the current rate. If there are fewer people in the home you will save more.

[rviebrock]

Can anybody recommend a supplier in Ottawa?

I know that fireplace shop does them. You may also try Holmes heating.

[agiga]

I know that fireplace shop does them. You may also try Holmes heating.

what fireplace shop?

[deruo]

If you don't plan on living in your house more than five years, then you won't recoup your costs. The tankless water heater won't add any more value to your home.

I work as a Realtor and I would disagree with you to a point on value. Tankless water heaters are becoming more popular and are a selling point for houses that have them. Buyers purchasing homes with traditional waterheaters have to deal with hassles regarding whether they're rented or owned, how old they are, replacement, costs etc. I've seen more property-related closing hassles with regular hot water tanks than you'd believe.

I purchased my 2nd last home partially because it had the system, whereas the other house I was looking at had the traditional set up. I went for it to save $ on utilities, and space. So the value was there for me, plus it was worth it to the seller as it made his house easier to sell.

Now whether people are willing to pay extra for a house that has the system is another thing entirely - but thats the same no matter whether we're talking about tankless systems or renovated bathrooms. I've seen renos that were a waste of the sellers money because they were attractive to a limited number of people (not everyone appreciating someones tastes)

FWIW, having had three systems now, Rinnai is the best in my opinion. Had a Rinnai in Japan with NO problems. They have years of experience, and are able to heat up COLD Canadian water quickly. Some others do not like our cold canadian winter water. If you are buying a house with a system already intact, you may want to look at a maintenance plan as they can be expensive to repair - especially if you have a Baxi brand unit. FWIW, I would avoid Baxi altogether. They are popular in Russia and Italy, but not so much in Canada and thus, not easy to find a service person for.

Another plus to these types of systems is that if you have a portable battery backup, you can still have hot water if the power goes out - for as long as your battery lasts. My unit uses natural gas but needs electricity to run the fan and electronics. I have a small solar array connected to a battery pack that will ensure that if nothing else, I'll have hot water for days if the power goes out.

[agiga]

Does the issue of not having hot water during a power outage apply to the gas tankless water heaters as well or only the electric?

[deruo]

Agiga not sure what you are referring to there.

With traditional hot water tanks, you use gas or electricity to heat the water and if it's a gas heater, electricity to power some of it. (At least I seem to remember gas heaters being plugged in) If you have an electric hot water heater, you're using electricity to heat 60 gallons of hot water. If the power goes out, once the tank of hot water is gone - its gone until the power comes back on.

With a natural gas tankless hot water heater, you plug it in, and it uses gas to heat the water. The hydro is needed to run the fan and the electronics. However, because in my particular case, it only uses 100 watts of electricity to operate, I can plug it in to a power pack and it'll run, and still use the natural gas to give me hot water.

[applejuice]

applejuice,


The tankless supposedly reduces your energy costs 75% as opposed to traditional water tank heating.

I'm getting mine this week.




Totally hear you on the cost savings..but I believe the cost of keeping that 70 gallon tank isn't that much...have heard that only 10-20% of your gas bill is for water...so saving 75% of that is nice but nothing major.

ie. would rather have hot water in 3 showers be guaranteed as opposed to "risking" it with tankless....but am I risking it?

does anyone have a 3 apartment setup with tankless?

[DeannaP]

I work as a Realtor and I would disagree with you to a point on value. Tankless water heaters are becoming more popular and are a selling point for houses that have them. Buyers purchasing homes with traditional waterheaters have to deal with hassles regarding whether they're rented or owned, how old they are, replacement, costs etc. I've seen more property-related closing hassles with regular hot water tanks than you'd believe.

I purchased my 2nd last home partially because it had the system, whereas the other house I was looking at had the traditional set up. I went for it to save $ on utilities, and space. So the value was there for me, plus it was worth it to the seller as it made his house easier to sell.

Now whether people are willing to pay extra for a house that has the system is another thing entirely - but thats the same no matter whether we're talking about tankless systems or renovated bathrooms. I've seen renos that were a waste of the sellers money because they were attractive to a limited number of people (not everyone appreciating someones tastes)

FWIW, having had three systems now, Rinnai is the best in my opinion. Had a Rinnai in Japan with NO problems. They have years of experience, and are able to heat up COLD Canadian water quickly. Some others do not like our cold canadian winter water. If you are buying a house with a system already intact, you may want to look at a maintenance plan as they can be expensive to repair - especially if you have a Baxi brand unit. FWIW, I would avoid Baxi altogether. They are popular in Russia and Italy, but not so much in Canada and thus, not easy to find a service person for.

Another plus to these types of systems is that if you have a portable battery backup, you can still have hot water if the power goes out - for as long as your battery lasts. My unit uses natural gas but needs electricity to run the fan and electronics. I have a small solar array connected to a battery pack that will ensure that if nothing else, I'll have hot water for days if the power goes out.

This is very true. I have many customers who have just purchased their home only to find that the tank was very old and they had to go through the hassle of replacing it soon after they move in. Since tanklesses last 20+ years, you are assured that you won't have to deal with replacement for some time.

[applejuice]

ive had my tankless system for a year now.. no problems.. system is great.. its a Rinnai .. largest one they had before commercial version.. tops out at 140 degrees .. have it set to 130 .. (6 people in the house) .. the water heats up nearly instantly and lasts as long as you need it.. can have 3 showers going at once (@ 2.5 gpm) and pressure is good ..

if you have a house around 2000sqft .. you can set it to like 100 - 105 and not have a problem.. you save more money on gas then you do with water usage..



could you define the model # and how many gpm it gets?

[halo five]

I agree that a tankless water heater is a selling feature, but this quote is misleading:

Buyers purchasing homes with traditional waterheaters have to deal with hassles regarding whether they're rented or owned

Tankless water heaters can be rentals as well. See for example the offer in this thread.

[dns1]

Agiga not sure what you are referring to there.

With traditional hot water tanks, you use gas or electricity to heat the water and if it's a gas heater, electricity to power some of it. (At least I seem to remember gas heaters being plugged in) If you have an electric hot water heater, you're using electricity to heat 60 gallons of hot water. If the power goes out, once the tank of hot water is gone - its gone until the power comes back on.

With a natural gas tankless hot water heater, you plug it in, and it uses gas to heat the water. The hydro is needed to run the fan and the electronics. However, because in my particular case, it only uses 100 watts of electricity to operate, I can plug it in to a power pack and it'll run, and still use the natural gas to give me hot water.

My Rheem 40 gallon 2003 gas water heater doesn't use hydro at all.
It exhausts into the same chimney as my furnace (boiler)
It was purchased outright at Home Depot for about $350 and it cost about $100 for the contractor to install it.
I think just the power vented heaters use hydro.

By the time you add the cost of the tankless heater plus the venting, the ups power supply,the electronics, the larger water feed and the high installation fees I don't think there would be any payback at all (for me).

Maybe if an electric heater was being removed there would be some payback ?

Just my thoughts !

dns

[applejuice]

You probably need a fairly large unit, 200K BTU unit in order to feed 3 showers. Don't forget other factors such as kitchen, laundry and tap also impact the requirement.

are there any experts familiar with the models that produce 200k bTU in tankless?

note that there will be 3 dishwashers as well as 2 sets of laundry...

but I doubt there will be any scenarios where we are running 3+ devices at once...and if there is and the water sucks..well I'll take that chance as I doubt a 70 gallon would help much in a 4+ environment either...right?

[DeannaP]

Totally hear you on the cost savings..but I believe the cost of keeping that 70 gallon tank isn't that much...have heard that only 10-20% of your gas bill is for water...so saving 75% of that is nice but nothing major.

ie. would rather have hot water in 3 showers be guaranteed as opposed to "risking" it with tankless....but am I risking it?

does anyone have a 3 apartment setup with tankless?

We have installed one Rinnai R75 for up to 4 apts. with no issues. This is based on 2-3 tenants per unit. Tenants use water at different times of the day.

The bigger the tank, the greater the standby heat loss. Consider that every time someone uses the water, you're adding more cold to it and using more gas to reheat again. And keeping it hot while you're sleeping.

With the R75 you can run 2 major lines and a minor line at the same time with no drop of pressure or temperature. This is more than sufficient for a typical Canadian household. If you were to turn on a 4th line, you would notice a drop of pressure, but never temperature.

[nedjel]

I’m glad to see that this is catching on. Tankless water heater have been the norm in Europe and Japan for the past 20 years, same thing with front load washers (less water, better wash)
Tankless is the way to go. Why keep 40 Gallons of hot water in your house for 8 hours a day, while you are at work. Makes no sense. I have been through 4 gas water tanks, so far.
Murphy’s law, if your hot water tank id going to leak, it will happen while you are at work.
Water damage from Hot Water Tanks is HUGE and the single biggest expense on your home insurance bill. I live in Vancouver and you need to take a gas permit ($65) from the city in order to have someone work on your gas tank. They usually add it to your bill. Not to mentions that gas pricess have risen by over 50% in the last 8 years I can’t say the same for electricity. It’s still around $0.06 per KWh, one of the cheapest in the world if not the cheapest.
Some of the newer town homes I have seen, have the washer /dryer and gas hot water tank installed in a closet on the 2nd floor, conveniently located over the living room. Can you spell ‘’disaster ‘’waiting to happen?
Gas is not a renewable resource.

[NCHC James]

ok, so i got my tankless installed. i gotta say, it's really sweet. the install guy was wicked. he also did my furnace, a/c, hrv, and steam humidifier all in one install. 2 days. he explained the correct usage of the tankless to me. In order for it to work to it's fullest potential, you are supposed to set the temperature on the tankless to a temperature at which you can shower without using the cold. this is because, the use of the cold deminishes the water pressure. i seriously appreciated this guy and his apprentice. they took the time to answer all my questions and explain stuff to me while they were installing. i would highly recommend them to anyone living around the toronto durham area. http://www.naturalchoiceonline.ca/

Wanted to say thanks for the comments, We work hard on making sure you understand all your choices that are available to you, as well all rebates so you get every cent back with your energy saving choices! it was a pleasure to chat with you from the first visit and to the emails received on planning the equipment, to the completion of the systems and Fancy thermostat.





I’m glad to see that this is catching on. Tankless water heater have been the norm in Europe and Japan for the past 20 years, same thing with front load washers (less water, better wash)
Tankless is the way to go. Why keep 40 Gallons of hot water in your house for 8 hours a day, while you are at work. Makes no sense. I have been through 4 gas water tanks, so far.
Murphy’s law, if your hot water tank id going to leak, it will happen while you are at work.
Water damage from Hot Water Tanks is HUGE and the single biggest expense on your home insurance bill. I live in Vancouver and you need to take a gas permit ($65) from the city in order to have someone work on your gas tank. They usually add it to your bill. Not to mentions that gas pricess have risen by over 50% in the last 8 years I can’t say the same for electricity. It’s still around $0.06 per KWh, one of the cheapest in the world if not the cheapest.
Some of the newer town homes I have seen, have the washer /dryer and gas hot water tank installed in a closet on the 2nd floor, conveniently located over the living room. Can you spell ‘’disaster ‘’waiting to happen?
Gas is not a renewable resource.


Great Points made on what we in Canada have been living with for years, you will see tanks becoming a thing of the past as our resources are becoming more expensive and less available to us.

I can honestlly say that there are a lot of customers that have paused a lot over the cost, now with Tankless, now adding that Furnaces and air conditioning systems can be rented (while still qualifying for rebates) brings more options to each of us all. Rent or purchase really becomes a personal choice and pay back (are you staying at your home for a few years, or flipping?)

as mentioned it may not get you more money, but it will make your home stand out from the neighbour who's got all original equipment. not having to worry about your home's heart knowing it's been changed out giving you the most savings from the day you move in, and thinking there are great warranties also?

well if i can be of service, we are always a call or email away!

[barto]

Hadn't seen anyone mention this idea yet - any thoughts?

Our house heating is via a (gas) boiler to 'fins' along the lower edge of all (or most) outside walls. Traditional (gas) HWT - about 1 year old (emergency replacement - wish we had switched then to tankless).

Have had some problems with the new HWT, but the boiler is getting pretty old, like 30 years old or so.

Anyone know of options to have ONE (giant?) tankless system that can provide hot water for our heating system as well as providing hot water? Larger (6) split-level house, 4 adults & one teen.

Appreciate advice/suggestions on this idea - thanks!

Bart

[bririp]

Rinnai makes great Air Handlers as well. These R75 units are great for this kind of use. They make the water supply the first priority so if you are showering and someone else is as well and there isnt enough water to run your air handler, it will stop heating the house until the water pressure is back high enough

[NCHC James]

Hadn't seen anyone mention this idea yet - any thoughts?

Our house heating is via a (gas) boiler to 'fins' along the lower edge of all (or most) outside walls. Traditional (gas) HWT - about 1 year old (emergency replacement - wish we had switched then to tankless).

Have had some problems with the new HWT, but the boiler is getting pretty old, like 30 years old or so.

Anyone know of options to have ONE (giant?) tankless system that can provide hot water for our heating system as well as providing hot water? Larger (6) split-level house, 4 adults & one teen.

Appreciate advice/suggestions on this idea - thanks!

Bart

Bart, there is, i would recommend using a R94LSi with a proper hydronic's set up would work great! that would take up a lot less space and much more eff ..

when it comes to the hydronic possiblities they are endless.

[Kannna]

From what I read gas tankless needs yearly maintenance and electric tankless does not. However, the disadvantage with electric is that it can only handle max 2 applications at once. The running cost for electric tankless is slightly higer than gas. Any comments?

[Avatar]

ive had my tankless system for a year now.. no problems.. system is great.. its a Rinnai .. largest one they had before commercial version.. tops out at 140 degrees .. have it set to 130 .. (6 people in the house) .. the water heats up nearly instantly and lasts as long as you need it.. can have 3 showers going at once (@ 2.5 gpm) and pressure is good ..

if you have a house around 2000sqft .. you can set it to like 100 - 105 and not have a problem.. you save more money on gas then you do with water usage..

I've been doing some homework about these tankless units. Apparently most homes in Europe been using these for years. It saves energy because no heating of water need when no hot water used. Unlike conventional water tank water was heat up to retain a certain temp even not used.

But I'm kind of question whether it benefits a home with lots of people of a home with people in house all the time.

The thing is that, say a family of two both go to work in morning, nobody at home in between work saves heating cost. On the other hand, with people at home keep turning on/off heater might not save energy instead wasting more.

The only advantage is more efficient as it doesn't have scale built up in the bottom like conventional water tank if you don't have water softener.

[NCHC James]

From what I read gas tankless needs yearly maintenance and electric tankless does not. However, the disadvantage with electric is that it can only handle max 2 applications at once. The running cost for electric tankless is slightly higer than gas. Any comments?

Needs is a strong word, a flushing is suggested for an annual service. by conducting this annual service will ensure the top performance and most eff of your tankless unit. Manufacture does not matter, gas or electric would be the same.

Did you know that your hotwater tank is also suggested to be cleaned as often or more? Not that i've ever had a call on one.

The electric one we installed at the request of a customer 6 years ago required a three phase electric set up, as well did not perform nearly as well as a Rinnai system. This install was completed in a area of Toronto that did not have gas on that street and was going to be an extremely high cost to have installed. Propane was not an option.

Personally i don't find any electric model or manufacture that can come close to the Reliability and durability of Rinnai. we do not install any other manufacture for that reason, we don't have to think twice about a failing unit.

you can view more about Rinnai at www.foreverhotwater.com

[NCHC James]

I've been doing some homework about these tankless units. Apparently most homes in Europe been using these for years. It saves energy because no heating of water need when no hot water used. Unlike conventional water tank water was heat up to retain a certain temp even not used.

But I'm kind of question whether it benefits a home with lots of people of a home with people in house all the time.

The thing is that, say a family of two both go to work in morning, nobody at home in between work saves heating cost. On the other hand, with people at home keep turning on/off heater might not save energy instead wasting more.

The only advantage is more efficient as it doesn't have scale built up in the bottom like conventional water tank if you don't have water softener.


Great questions..

it is always saving, however think of it as if you got a new sports car and drove it petal to the metal all day, not much savings. what i mean by that if you and everyone in the home having longer showers and no one is missing out on a shower equaling more usage, i can't promise savings just comfort.

think of this, with a natural gas tank the average recovery from a 10 minute shower is stated for up to 60 minutes (Tests done by Enbridge and National Resources Canada). an electric takes 96 minutes to recover from the same 10 minute shower. Tankless, nothing, as soon as the tap is off the unit stops. that is, no recovering time, think about that. now you are saving an hour of fuel or more?

here's a quick way to compare tankless to tanks.
a tank would be compared to coming home from a long day at work instead of turning your car off to leave it running so in the morning it would be warm for you to leave. Doesn't make sense does it?

Tankless, like auto start. not ready hot, but in a couple of seconds you have what you wanted and now for an unlimited amount of time. now think of the fuel just saved?

[deruo]

I agree that a tankless water heater is a selling feature, but this quote is misleading:

Tankless water heaters can be rentals as well. See for example the offer in this thread.

Well yes, when you only post part of it it could appear that way. I know that you can rent tankless heaters. Some people even rent furnaces now. My point, however unclear it may have been, is that in my experience, there are more issues besides whether its owned or not with traditional hot water tanks. Depending on the area and water hardness, I've seen regular HWTs give out after 5 years, or leak their contents in your brand new finished basement. Tankless systems have very quickly made a lot of inroads in Canada as far as their reputation for dependability goes.

[Avatar]

Tankless, like auto start. not ready hot, but in a couple of seconds you have what you wanted and now for an unlimited amount of time. now think of the fuel just saved?

People normally think about the operation time between the conventional tank or the tankless unit. Sure if you don't use it saves. However, in North America, we have central hot water system. You don't just activate the heater when taking shower. You activate the heater when washing your hands, clothes, dishes and how often you/your family wash your/their hands? So you need a great amount of BTU (as stated in this thread some odd number 150,000) to start the heater. So I think turning it on/off wasting more fuel than heating conventional tank.

The unit is popular in other countries because they only use them for shower as they don't have centralized water system. Don't forget we have winter here and you will be turning on/off the heater more often as you don't want to use cold water to wash hands.

There's always a reason for the heater to heat up instantly because it needs more energy to do that.

Like I said, if you don't have a big family or everyone go to work and come back at night, it saves. Otherwise I doubt it. Not to mention the cost of breakdown compare to the tank as it is more sofisticate than a tank. Tank might broke after 10 years and cost about $300 but this... I'm skeptical about it.

[deruo]

Another point for anyone not yet sold on the idea....

I found that my water bills were lower because apparently, I was using less water. Not much, but I suppose it could add up for a family.
Couldn't figure it out at first as I didn't think we were doing anything different.

My Rinnai system allows me to set the water at a specific temperature for showers via remote. Turn the tap all the way full hot and you're set.
The way it was explained to me was that we were now only using hot water set at the temperature we needed - and no longer using cold water to cool down the water that we'd heated up to use for showers. A godsend for anyone that has someone in the house that takes 20+ minute showers.

[yomister]

any recommendations for a reputable Rinnai installer in toronto? What's the total cost for the system (R75LSi) and installation?

pm me

Edit: does anyone know the cheapest way to get in on this deal? Seems like the tankless heater from HD would be cheapest at ~$2000, but you have to install through HD subcontractors which makes it a no-no.

[NCHC James]

People normally think about the operation time between the conventional tank or the tankless unit. Sure if you don't use it saves. However, in North America, we have central hot water system. You don't just activate the heater when taking shower. You activate the heater when washing your hands, clothes, dishes and how often you/your family wash your/their hands? So you need a great amount of BTU (as stated in this thread some odd number 150,000) to start the heater. So I think turning it on/off wasting more fuel than heating conventional tank.

The unit is popular in other countries because they only use them for shower as they don't have centralized water system. Don't forget we have winter here and you will be turning on/off the heater more often as you don't want to use cold water to wash hands.

There's always a reason for the heater to heat up instantly because it needs more energy to do that.

Like I said, if you don't have a big family or everyone go to work and come back at night, it saves. Otherwise I doubt it. Not to mention the cost of breakdown compare to the tank as it is more sofisticate than a tank. Tank might broke after 10 years and cost about $300 but this... I'm skeptical about it.


In other countries they do have many units installed throughout the home, where yes our models are one. what they did to improve this is it is designed with a modulating gas valve. that allows the unit to use as little as 15,000Btuh's to a max as well. so as you pointed out a single tap will not require all the fuel that the unit can use, and will only use what is necessary to provide unlimited hotwater at the demand given.

Another point for anyone not yet sold on the idea....

I found that my water bills were lower because apparently, I was using less water. Not much, but I suppose it could add up for a family.
Couldn't figure it out at first as I didn't think we were doing anything different.

My Rinnai system allows me to set the water at a specific temperature for showers via remote. Turn the tap all the way full hot and you're set.
The way it was explained to me was that we were now only using hot water set at the temperature we needed - and no longer using cold water to cool down the water that we'd heated up to use for showers. A godsend for anyone that has someone in the house that takes 20+ minute showers.


20+ showers, WOW lol.. well, the Rinnai model will keep up to that and more, however if using the tankless to this extent i can not suggest savings, again Just unlimited Comfort ;)


any recommendations for a reputable Rinnai installer in toronto? What's the total cost for the system (R75LSi) and installation?

pm me

Edit: does anyone know the cheapest way to get in on this deal? Seems like the tankless heater from HD would be cheapest at ~$2000, but you have to install through HD subcontractors which makes it a no-no.

We install in your area, although i have noticed we can not self promote. what brought me to this website was a pleased customer making me aware of this site and what he posted.

You can PM me for Contact info, or give me yours and i will be happy to call and answer all questions you may have.

other options, go to www.foreverhotwater.com which is Rinnai's website, there you can do a dealer search and look at the 5 star dealers first and go from there.

[VLeung]

Just installed one tankless water heater yesterday (Navien model #CR-240A).
It did take 2 guys and about 8.5 hours for the installation to replace my old Combo Water Heater (i.e. both for hot water and central heating).
They also replaced the old plastic water pipes with new copper pipes that goes into the existing central heating condenser/blower unit.

Saved a lot of space now in the water heater / washing machine room.
And the central heating also seemed somewhat improved.

Since I live in a Town House complex, recently, many unit owners start replacing the old water heater with the new tankless model like the one I have just installed.
Looks like my local contractor is going to clean-up the whole area with these new tankless water heaters.
(Yes, I have it on rental contract for $40/month without paying any money up front, and $3 less than that I pay Enbridge on renting the old water heater. )

And I just finished filling out the rebate form to be mailed tomorrow !
Many thanks to the OP.
:cheesygri

[999jam]

Just installed one tankless water heater yesterday (Navien model #CR-240A).
(Yes, I have it on rental contract for $40/month without paying any money up front, and $3 less than that I pay Enbridge on renting the old water heater. )

And I just finished filling out the rebate form to be mailed tomorrow !
Many thanks to the OP.
:cheesygri

You are most certainly welcome, glad I could save you some money and some of the environment at the same time. :D

[Gryphon]

The R53 can only deliver 3.1g/min as compare to the R85 can deliver 3.8g/min

15,000BTU is the MININUM gas requirement. When the unit is at full blast (i.e. shower running), the R53 needs 150,000BTU and the R85 needs 180,000 BTU. That extra 30,000BTU get you an bit extra water flow.

For people that consider installing a tankless heater, also get a UPS (a small 600VA should be sufficient). No power = No hot water does not matter how short is the outage.

sc888888, could you please show us the source of your data, i.e. 3.1, 3.8, 150,000?

I just checked my R53i nameplate, the gas supply range is 15,000 - 180,000 BTU, same as R85i. The following links show the water flow at different temperature rise (manufacturer marketing brochures). I drew my conclusion based on the charts. And I recall similar chart in my installation guide.
http://www.rinnaisolutions.com/documents/1240101.pdf
http://www.rinnai.us/documentation/downloads/R-CNWH-E-12r5_LS_Series.pdf

[dalman]

Just installed one tankless water heater yesterday (Navien model #CR-240A).
It did take 2 guys and about 8.5 hours for the installation to replace my old Combo Water Heater (i.e. both for hot water and central heating).
They also replaced the old plastic water pipes with new copper pipes that goes into the existing central heating condenser/blower unit.

Saved a lot of space now in the water heater / washing machine room.
And the central heating also seemed somewhat improved.

Since I live in a Town House complex, recently, many unit owners start replacing the old water heater with the new tankless model like the one I have just installed.
Looks like my local contractor is going to clean-up the whole area with these new tankless water heaters.
(Yes, I have it on rental contract for $40/month without paying any money up front, and $3 less than that I pay Enbridge on renting the old water heater. )

And I just finished filling out the rebate form to be mailed tomorrow !
Many thanks to the OP.
:cheesygri

I am wondering if you need to pay for installation and how much it is? My rental fee is $20 per month so I am wondering if they have different tankless waterheater for rent for that price range?

[LonesomeDove]

Please, don't post tax advice/information unless you know what you are talking about, otherwise confusion arises.

Non-Refundable Tax Credits are used to reduce your TOTAL tax owing to a minimum of $0.00. But cannot lower the TOTAL below $0.00. In other words, you cannot get away with paying no tax and receiving a refund from the government (ie. negative taxation).

NRTC's are calculated as: Value*0.15=Tax Credit (as of 2009)

So, suppose your employer takes $15,000 out of your pay for taxes (and your total tax payable is also $15,000), and you have a total of $1000 Non-refundable tax credits, you will get a $1000 refund when you file your taxes.

However, suppose you are self-employed and don't pay taxes until end-of-year, and you manage to (somehow) have a total of $16,000 Non-Refundable Tax Credits (Which means you actually wrote off $106,666) and have a total tax owing of $15000. In this case, you will not pay any tax, but you will NOT receive the extra $1000 (15000-16000) from the government.

Ok, I hope that clears it up... BTW, the transit pass credit is also a NRTC.

Yes, in other words, you will not get be getting a refund, only a reduction in taxes paid. Should you pay no taxes, you will not be getting a refund cheque. But most people don't know this. The government has not been clear on this subject and the news media is lacking. Even the consumer guy on the local Vancouver CTV said you will be getting a refund which is incorrect.

But looking at this another way, if you are a home owner, you will be likely working and have income. Any time you pay less taxes, means more money in your pocket.

[outlier617]

Has anyone in London done this? Can you recommend anyone??? Also, has anyone considered doing this through Costco?? Thanks in advance.

[dell11]

For the people that have the tankless system, what do you have in place in case the power goes out in the winter? What prevents the pipes from freezing and bursting in the event the cold air makes it way through the exhaust vent?

Are there models with a built in battery backup to keep the pipes warm in the event of a power outage in the winter??

[999jam]

I am wondering if you need to pay for installation and how much it is? My rental fee is $20 per month so I am wondering if they have different tankless waterheater for rent for that price range?

I would assume that it depends on the rental company. I did not have to pay for installation and neither did VLeung. As for a $20 rental, I don't know actually, I suppose you are going to have to research a few companies, but I think the going rate (around here at least) is about $35/month

[999jam]

[QUOTE=dell11;8445222]For the people that have the tankless system, what do you have in place in case the power goes out in the winter? What prevents the pipes from freezing and bursting in the event the cold air makes it way through the exhaust vent?

Are there models with a built in battery backup to keep the pipes warm in the event of a power outage in the winter??[/QUOTE

I asked the same questions. It was explained to me, that if my pipes were freezing, I had bigger issues than frozen pipes because the insulation in your house should have a high enuff R value that pipes aren't freezing. Also, the pipes that were used in my installation (I can't speak for everybody) were the blue and red tubing (blue=cold, red=hot) not copper, so i think they are already somewhat insulated. As for backup power, I was told to get a small power pack that I plug the tankless into and the power pack into the outlet. The tankless doesn't draw a whole lot of electricity, 100W i think mine said, so as much as a couple light bulbs.

[999jam]

not sure if there are tankless with backup power built in

[tomtomtom]

For the people that have the tankless system, what do you have in place in case the power goes out in the winter? What prevents the pipes from freezing and bursting in the event the cold air makes it way through the exhaust vent?

Are there models with a built in battery backup to keep the pipes warm in the event of a power outage in the winter??

Does your cold water pipe inside the house freeze and burst in the winter?

[dell11]

Does your cold water pipe inside the house freeze and burst in the winter?

No it doesn't because my pipes are not vented to the exterior and I shut off the water to the hose connections every winter.

But if you install a tankless system, you need to be vented outside, that means that if the freezing cold air travels through the vent to the unit and you have no electrical power to monitor the temperature, it will freeze. Correct?

[dell11]

I asked the same questions. It was explained to me, that if my pipes were freezing, I had bigger issues than frozen pipes because the insulation in your house should have a high enuff R value that pipes aren't freezing. Also, the pipes that were used in my installation (I can't speak for everybody) were the blue and red tubing (blue=cold, red=hot) not copper, so i think they are already somewhat insulated. As for backup power, I was told to get a small power pack that I plug the tankless into and the power pack into the outlet. The tankless doesn't draw a whole lot of electricity, 100W i think mine said, so as much as a couple light bulbs.

If you had no power for a long enough time, the inside temp of the home will equal the outside temp no matter what the R value is. Think about those people in the Ice Storms in Quebec when the power is out 2 weeks...The R value for the insulation does nothing there.

[999jam]

If you had no power for a long enough time, the inside temp of the home will equal the outside temp no matter what the R value is. Think about those people in the Ice Storms in Quebec when the power is out 2 weeks...The R value for the insulation does nothing there.

See, if ur pipes are freezing you have bigger problems.

[jasonmmax]

I am wondering if you need to pay for installation and how much it is? My rental fee is $20 per month so I am wondering if they have different tankless waterheater for rent for that price range?



can you tell me which company charge only $20 per month for rental? since i am thinking to rent one thx

[999jam]

No it doesn't because my pipes are not vented to the exterior and I shut off the water to the hose connections every winter.

But if you install a tankless system, you need to be vented outside, that means that if the freezing cold air travels through the vent to the unit and you have no electrical power to monitor the temperature, it will freeze. Correct?

Sorry, this is above my understanding of the system, hopefully bririp or NCHC James will answer ur question

[dalman]

can you tell me which company charge only $20 per month for rental? since i am thinking to rent one thx

Sorry, maybe I did not say this clearly. I have a tank water heater from Direct Energy for $20. I am thinking if the price is the same, I would rather go with a tankless one even if I need to pay some money upfront.

[agiga]

See, if ur pipes are freezing you have bigger problems.

If that's true then that applies to all new homes that even have tanks as we all have power vented tanks so this is not a point for tanks vs tankless it's a point for vented vs. not vented and some of us didn't have a choice.

[Temujin1]

Please do your research

http://www.askthebuilder.com/710_Tankless_Water_Heater.shtml

I can't confirm the accuracy of this article but he brings up some great points. The additional capital cost, plus differential in install cost and maintenance can far exceed your payback on these tankless water heaters. Don't expect 30-50% savings off your energy bill.

Also, on the tax credit issue, it's my understanding that as long as you've paid at least $1350 in taxes (calculated as 15% of $9000),not whether or not you get a tax refund, you should be able to take advantage of the incentive. If you didn't pay $1350 in taxes in one year, i really don't think you can afford to do any home renovations so it may be a moot point (but if you can, i'd love to meet your accountant).

[VLeung]

I am wondering if you need to pay for installation and how much it is? My rental fee is $20 per month so I am wondering if they have different tankless water heater for rent for that price range?

I don't need to pay any cash up front for the installation except for signing a 2 year contract @$40 + GST per month.
However, the deal is that the $600 rebate from the Federal/Provincial Gov. will cover the installation charges. And the contractor also covers any audit fees incurred.

For your case, I don't think there is much incentive (other than space saving) in getting a tankless water heater since you are now paying $20 for monthly rental.
You'll end up paying more for renting a tankless water heater.

[tomtomtom]

Please do your research

http://www.askthebuilder.com/710_Tankless_Water_Heater.shtml

I can't confirm the accuracy of this article but he brings up some great points. The additional capital cost, plus differential in install cost and maintenance can far exceed your payback on these tankless water heaters. Don't expect 30-50% savings off your energy bill.


Looking solely at the cost, it wouldn't justify to get a tankless. How about looking at depleting out natural resources? emitting greenhouse gas? global climate change?

Why do people buy hybrid cars? Will they be able to recoup the extra cash put up from the gas saved down the road? No. How about reducing our carbon footprint significantly? Yes.

Just my 2 cents :)

[VLeung]

Hadn't seen anyone mention this idea yet - any thoughts?

Our house heating is via a (gas) boiler to 'fins' along the lower edge of all (or most) outside walls. Traditional (gas) HWT - about 1 year old (emergency replacement - wish we had switched then to tankless).

Have had some problems with the new HWT, but the boiler is getting pretty old, like 30 years old or so.

Anyone know of options to have ONE (giant?) tankless system that can provide hot water for our heating system as well as providing hot water? Larger (6) split-level house, 4 adults & one teen.

Appreciate advice/suggestions on this idea - thanks!

Bart

These new tankless water heaters can be installed as multiple master / slave units depending on your needs. (i.e. you probably can install one unit on each floor and connect all the control units together in a master / slave manner and view each from your remote control.)
But this will end up cost you lots more $$$ than using one big central boiler.

[dell11]

I don't need to pay any cash up front for the installation except for signing a 2 year contract @$40 + GST per month.
However, the deal is that the $600 rebate from the Federal/Provincial Gov. will cover the installation charges. And the contractor also covers any audit fees incurred.

For your case, I don't think there is much incentive (other than space saving) in getting a tankless water heater since you are now paying $20 for monthly rental.
You'll end up paying more for renting a tankless water heater.

After 2 years, is there a buyout? What is the residual cost if you were to buy it? Is the rental through Direct Energy?

[VLeung]

After 2 years, is there a buyout? What is the residual cost if you were to buy it? Is the rental through Direct Energy?

This is through a local contractor, not from Direct Energy.
And the local contractor has promised the rental increase after 2 years, if any, will not be more than 3.5% and should be lower than any price increase from Direct Energy.
Personally, I would keep renting the water heater indefinitely.
The reason is that if you had 2 breakdowns within a year, it will probably cost you more to repair than paying one year's rental charges.

[Kannna]

Needs is a strong word, a flushing is suggested for an annual service. by conducting this annual service will ensure the top performance and most eff of your tankless unit. Manufacture does not matter, gas or electric would be the same.

Did you know that your hotwater tank is also suggested to be cleaned as often or more? Not that i've ever had a call on one.

The electric one we installed at the request of a customer 6 years ago required a three phase electric set up, as well did not perform nearly as well as a Rinnai system. This install was completed in a area of Toronto that did not have gas on that street and was going to be an extremely high cost to have installed. Propane was not an option.

Personally i don't find any electric model or manufacture that can come close to the Reliability and durability of Rinnai. we do not install any other manufacture for that reason, we don't have to think twice about a failing unit.

you can view more about Rinnai at www.foreverhotwater.com


thanks...

[Temujin1]

Looking solely at the cost, it wouldn't justify to get a tankless. How about looking at depleting out natural resources? emitting greenhouse gas? global climate change?

Why do people buy hybrid cars? Will they be able to recoup the extra cash put up from the gas saved down the road? No. How about reducing our carbon footprint significantly? Yes.

Just my 2 cents :)


Not just cost, but the extravagant claims of efficiency aren't supported. It's better, but it isn't that much better. plus, if you saved the money, you might be able to put it into other things that help you reduce your footprint further. Lighting, water, high efficiency furnace, etc. People should understand what they're getting into, not the least of which is the ongoing maintenance...

[agiga]

Please do your research

http://www.askthebuilder.com/710_Tankless_Water_Heater.shtml

I can't confirm the accuracy of this article but he brings up some great points. The additional capital cost, plus differential in install cost and maintenance can far exceed your payback on these tankless water heaters. Don't expect 30-50% savings off your energy bill.

Also, on the tax credit issue, it's my understanding that as long as you've paid at least $1350 in taxes (calculated as 15% of $9000),not whether or not you get a tax refund, you should be able to take advantage of the incentive. If you didn't pay $1350 in taxes in one year, i really don't think you can afford to do any home renovations so it may be a moot point (but if you can, i'd love to meet your accountant).

The article doesn't take into account the rebates discussed in this thread.
A tankless water heater installed costs about $3,000

$3,000 less the following rebates:
$300 enbridge credit
$200 energy savings grant (net the cost of the audit)
$400 home reno tax credit
is $2,100.

I'm paying $20/month to rent a hot water tank so factor in those savings plus on average savings of $10/month off my water bill.

$2,100 / $30 = 70 months (less than 6 years) until I recoup my costs so even if the tankless unit last 10 years I'm still ahead of the game and if it lasts 20 years as most claim then I'm laughing.

[sc888888]

sc888888, could you please show us the source of your data, i.e. 3.1, 3.8, 150,000?

I just checked my R53i nameplate, the gas supply range is 15,000 - 180,000 BTU, same as R85i. The following links show the water flow at different temperature rise (manufacturer marketing brochures). I drew my conclusion based on the charts. And I recall similar chart in my installation guide.
http://www.rinnaisolutions.com/documents/1240101.pdf
http://www.rinnai.us/documentation/downloads/R-CNWH-E-12r5_LS_Series.pdf

I based on the current equivalent model equivalent (R53 and R75). From your brochure link, the gas consumption and flow is identical.

Sorry to mislead you.

[Temujin1]

The article doesn't take into account the rebates discussed in this thread.
A tankless water heater installed costs about $3,000

$3,000 less the following rebates:
$300 enbridge credit
$200 energy savings grant (net the cost of the audit)
$400 home reno tax credit
is $2,100.

I'm paying $20/month to rent a hot water tank so factor in those savings plus on average savings of $10/month off my water bill.

$2,100 / $30 = 70 months (less than 6 years) until I recoup my costs so even if the tankless unit last 10 years I'm still ahead of the game and if it lasts 20 years as most claim then I'm laughing.
Very true. Renting a hot water tank isn't factored in and is frankly quite foreign to me. Does that mean you don't pay the cost of the yearly maintenance or any maintenance when you rent? Also, I'd like to know how one can claim the home reno tax credit when you're renting the unit? You didn't pay the capital cost of the unit, so you won't get a receipt for it. The taxman doesn't just accept your good word.

[agiga]

Very true. Renting a hot water tank isn't factored in and is frankly quite foreign to me. Does that mean you don't pay the cost of the yearly maintenance or any maintenance when you rent?

It's foreign to me too. I just moved to Ontario from Alberta where renting was unheard of. I have no idea what the benefits of renting are, I'd assume no maintenance but even so it makes no sense to me so I'm looking at buying. And since I'm buying, why buy a tank when I can go tankless and cash in on all the rebates.

[woodstock827]

I currently rent a tanked water heater with Direct Energy, costing $13/mo. When I called them up to ask for an upgrade to tankless system, the rent jumps to $33.50/mo (They'd "upgrade" my tanked to another tank for free due to age, 15+ years old.)

Somehow I doubt I'd save $20/month on gas given that my gas bill in the summer is only about $60/mo... I don't mind paying a bit more for green sake, but $20/mo is just too much for me.

[agiga]

I currently rent a tanked water heater with Direct Energy, costing $13/mo. When I called them up to ask for an upgrade to tankless system, the rent jumps to $33.50/mo (They'd "upgrade" my tanked to another tank for free due to age, 15+ years old.)

Somehow I doubt I'd save $20/month on gas given that my gas bill in the summer is only about $60/mo... I don't mind paying a bit more for green sake, but $20/mo is just too much for me.

They offered me the same "upgrade" for the same monthly cost and mine is brand new tank. You're better off buying.

[whampoa]

Just call Direct Energy, confirm no reno tax credit for renting. You're not initially paying for the tankless water heater and the installation.

However, you're eligible for the Federal and provincial energy audit grant and the Enbridge $300 rebate.

[NCHC James]

not sure if there are tankless with backup power built in

I have yet to see a unit where it is internal. But when you asked me about this option, Rinnai does offer an external battery back up at a cost. to be quite frank about it, you can go to any box store and they offer all sizes of battery back ups. Rinnai's come from the factory with a standard male plug, that of course you can plug into the battery back up and that into the wall. all while giving you hours of hotwater so you can shower in the dark if you wish.

Most importantly.. will allow the Rinnai to monitor itself. one of the reasons Rinnai stands out from the others is it has Frost protection built in. it has sensors all around the heat exchanger monitoring the tempature, if it starts to drop close to the safe point, there are two levels of protection. first is ceramic heaters that are places around the heat exchanger that will come on just long enough to bring the safe point. if it is too cold out and needs more help, the Rinnai will fire in it's first level (15,000Btuh's) again just long enough to protect itself.

this is only a factor when the Rinnai or any tankless is not in use for several hours during extreme tempatures.


Sorry, this is above my understanding of the system, hopefully bririp or NCHC James will answer ur question


because of the large venting required for these tankless systems we do have a chance that the wind (no matter which direction the wind is going). with that in mind the wind can go through the venting allowing cold air to land onto the heat exchanger which has water in it. if the unit does not have means of protection this is a worry, however as just discribed Rinnai has thought about that and had this protection in place for years.

I don't need to pay any cash up front for the installation except for signing a 2 year contract @$40 + GST per month.
However, the deal is that the $600 rebate from the Federal/Provincial Gov. will cover the installation charges. And the contractor also covers any audit fees incurred.

For your case, I don't think there is much incentive (other than space saving) in getting a tankless water heater since you are now paying $20 for monthly rental.
You'll end up paying more for renting a tankless water heater.

the rental programs do qualify for the Eco Energy Rebates and only some companies can offer the Enbridge rebate, that is not available to all dealers or companies.

The contractor is not required to cover the cost of the audit.

Keep in mind that the rental companies are in this to make a living, they take all the up front costs of the unit and standard installation. for that it is expected they get something out of it. much like financing a home or car, the final cost is more than if we had the cash up front.

for incentives, if you throw out the window the tree hugging factors and reducing the carbon foot print, look at the savings. if you compare to a tank that heats all day and all night regardless of use when comparing to tankless that uses very little energy to monitor itself and only uses gas when requested. i see a Huge difference, while adding in the Eco Energy rebate, the Enbridge rebate now added and as you made a good point of regaining space that is other wise wasted. thinking further, now the comfort of unlimited hotwater?

I don't see the plus on keeping a bateria filled tank.. just my two cents


thanks...

You are welcome, i'll answer questions anytime i'm not knee deep installing.

Just call Direct Energy, confirm no reno tax credit for renting. You're not initially paying for the tankless water heater and the installation.

However, you're eligible for the Federal and provincial energy audit grant and the Enbridge $300 rebate.

You are 100% correct, but can i add that not all companies can offer the $300 Enbridge rebate, do check.

[cdwalkman]

It's foreign to me too. I just moved to Ontario from Alberta where renting was unheard of. I have no idea what the benefits of renting are, I'd assume no maintenance but even so it makes no sense to me so I'm looking at buying. And since I'm buying, why buy a tank when I can go tankless and cash in on all the rebates.

That's so funny, I had the exact same reaction when I moved to Ottawa from Calgary. We bought a new house and had no choice but to accept the ridiculous monthly rental charge for the water heater, but I've been itching to get out of that contract since we moved in. Similarly, I was completely mystified by people here refering to "electricity" as "hydro". I rented (my home, not the water heater) for the first year I was here and looked at a bunch of places that had "oil heating", which thoroughly confused me at the time - defintiely a new concept coming from out west. Not to mention the provincial sales tax, liquor tax, having to renew your health card in person every 5 years, the taxes payable when you register used cars with the province, the sale of bags of milk in grocery stores, etc., etc., etc. I'll stop there...

Anyway, I'm with you, I see no benefits to renting, especially given the ridiculously high rental rates they charge. In my experience, hot water heaters are bullet proof, and even if they do require repair it's probably the equivalent of 3 months rental charges once every few years at most. And having to agree to rent one when you sign a contract to purchase/build a new house has to be one of the biggest legal scams out there.

Thanks to the OP, I'm all about the tankless water heater technology so this is a sweet deal given all the rebates and energy savings available. Just sticking it to Direct Energy is nearly reason enough to make the switch.

[barto]

These new tankless water heaters can be installed as multiple master / slave units depending on your needs. (i.e. you probably can install one unit on each floor and connect all the control units together in a master / slave manner and view each from your remote control.)
But this will end up cost you lots more $$$ than using one big central boiler.

Yes, that does sound complicated... I was under the impression that I could get one (giant?) tankless system that could essentially replace BOTH the hwt and the current boiler.

At the moment, I'm more worried about the boiler as it's older (30 years, I think!), but if it's just a matter of going to the next model up for a little more to also replace the HWT, then I'd be up for that, too.

Thanks - any other comments/suggestions on this idea of replacing a boiler and HWT with a tankless system?

Bart

[NCHC James]

Bart, you have quite a few options, you can look at

wall hung boilers which offer modulating burners (allowing to save a lot on gas, just like tankless systems do).

Tankless package set up with a hydronic's system (consisting of heat exchangers, pump's and new smaller expansion tank)

and more..

let me know if you would like more technical details, or to see what packages might suite your needs providing the most savings.

[Beowolf]

http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/residential/personal/tankless-water-heaters-models_static.cfm?attr=4

[patrob]

This is where we got our tankless system almost 2 years ago :) www.tanklesswaterheaters.ca

[agiga]

That's so funny, I had the exact same reaction when I moved to Ottawa from Calgary. We bought a new house and had no choice but to accept the ridiculous monthly rental charge for the water heater, but I've been itching to get out of that contract since we moved in. Similarly, I was completely mystified by people here refering to "electricity" as "hydro". I rented (my home, not the water heater) for the first year I was here and looked at a bunch of places that had "oil heating", which thoroughly confused me at the time - defintiely a new concept coming from out west. Not to mention the provincial sales tax, liquor tax, having to renew your health card in person every 5 years, the taxes payable when you register used cars with the province, the sale of bags of milk in grocery stores, etc., etc., etc. I'll stop there...

Anyway, I'm with you, I see no benefits to renting, especially given the ridiculously high rental rates they charge. In my experience, hot water heaters are bullet proof, and even if they do require repair it's probably the equivalent of 3 months rental charges once every few years at most. And having to agree to rent one when you sign a contract to purchase/build a new house has to be one of the biggest legal scams out there.

Thanks to the OP, I'm all about the tankless water heater technology so this is a sweet deal given all the rebates and energy savings available. Just sticking it to Direct Energy is nearly reason enough to make the switch.

Hilarious. My wife and I laugh about the same things. Especially milk bags (thankfully Mac's and the Esso convenience stores carry jugs but there's a 25 cent deposit)!

And yes based on all of the incentives, now's the time to go tankless. Just trying to find someone that will do it for a fair price. The lowest I've found is $2,800 plus GST but I still think that's a rip off considering the unit's retail price is half that or less. So they are making at least $1400 on the install! Not really fair. And some companies are charging upto $3,500!

[dell11]

Hilarious. My wife and I laugh about the same things. Especially milk bags (thankfully Mac's and the Esso convenience stores carry jugs but there's a 25 cent deposit)!

And yes based on all of the incentives, now's the time to go tankless. Just trying to find someone that will do it for a fair price. The lowest I've found is $2,800 plus GST but I still think that's a rip off considering the unit's retail price is half that or less. So they are making at least $1400 on the install! Not really fair. And some companies are charging upto $3,500!

I wonder if installation prices were lower before the rebates were offered?

[feejai]

I just had my new Rinnai R75LSi installed this past Wednesday by Natural Choice Heating & Cooling (NCHC). The installation only took a few hours, and so far everything is great. NCHC did a fantastic job with the installation and I don't miss that old water tank one bit.

It took me a few months to finally decide to go ahead with the install, and had contacted NCHC a few months back. James came out to my house twice to answer all of my questions without any pressure of a sale at all. Between visits I did do a lot of research on the benefits of a tankless, brands/models and certified installers. Rinnai seemed to stick out as the brand of preference by many professional installers and NCHC is listed as a 5-star installer for their products (not many 5 star installers on their page).

I did call around and got as many a five quotes for the Rinnai R75LSi. Everyone was pretty much in the same ball park, in and around the $2,800 mark. But it was funny to hear some of the information dealers were giving in regards to the install (we only cover up to 10' of gas line, we don't remove your old tank, or it's extra for us to remove it and bring it back to Enbridge on your behalf, installation only covers so many connections etc. etc.).

When James from NCHC came to give me a quote, it was for the COMPLETE job (no worry about an "extras" that may be needed during install). My installation was pretty straight forward, but it was nice to know that there wouldn't be any hidden costs.

If you are in the market for a tankless water system, I would highly the Rinnai product and Natural Choice Heating & Coolilng to do the job.

Here's to saving the planet one water tank at a time.

Cheers!

[Temujin1]

For those taking the plunge, or those who have but haven't submitted for their eco-energy rebates yet, there is potential to save some more money.

I'm on a climate change board and, through various connections, have heard that the recent addition of $300M in funds the federal government put into the program is rumored to be used to not only extend (apparently the program was running out of money) and expand the program, but to increase the rebate amount. The increase is expected to be about 20% from current levels but there is no indication that they're taking a blanket approach or targeting specific retrofits. Expect early april for an announcement.

Plus, for those in Alberta, the provincial gov't is also expected to announce incentives in the spring budget.

As with all things with the gov't, one should be wary of the date the retrofit occurs. For example, the home renovation tax credit only applies to renos done after the program was announced. If you can, please wait a month or two, i know i am. I'm looking at a high efficiency furnace, heat recovery ventilator and, if the price is right, tankless water heater or some type of power vent tank.

[mcmc]

I had mine install recently by enbridge and it's free. they come and do a free inspection to see if they can install it or at what cost. The only thing they will charge me is the rental on the boiler. But keep in mind that my house is a new house. I need more hot water, and either going to get a bigger tank or tankless. decide to try the tankless.
BTW. I got the Made in Japan one Rinnai. And the plumber(private not Direct energy) that I know have check on this tankless boiler after I got it. He said it's really good. All the work they did without charging me already good enough, on top. I got a really good unit.
I did get some quote from retail store, to have a bosch installed. and out of the door is around $2800. You still have to take care if thing doesn't work.
but with Direct energy, they told me parts and labor is include if anything happen.
Since it's free installation. I take my chance to try it. And few year down the road. I decide to buy a unit instead. I will be saving on the majority of the installation base on I already have a tankless installed. And doesnt' require bigger job to replace it for regular tank one to tankless. They also ran a 1" gas piping for me instead of the standard 3/4" that was already there.

Rental cost is $33.50/mth. My old boiler rental cost was $20.99, if I up size to 60Gal $22.99/23.99 forgot which. So.. it's up around $10/mth from, if I replace with a 60gal unit.

[joongpark]

How much does it cost you monthly for rental?

Thank you for the info.

I had mine install recently by enbridge and it's free. they come and do a free inspection to see if they can install it or at what cost. The only thing they will charge me is the rental on the boiler. But keep in mind that my house is a new house. I need more hot water, and either going to get a bigger tank or tankless. decide to try the tankless.
BTW. I got the Made in Japan one Rinnai. And the plumber(private not Direct energy) that I know have check on this tankless boiler after I got it. He said it's really good. All the work they did without charging me already good enough, on top. I got a really good unit.
I did get some quote from retail store, to have a bosch installed. and out of the door is around $2800. You still have to take care if thing doesn't work.
but with Direct energy, they told me parts and labor is include if anything happen.
Since it's free installation. I take my chance to try it. And few year down the road. I decide to buy a unit instead. I will be saving on the majority of the installation base on I already have a tankless installed. And doesnt' require bigger job to replace it for regular tank one to tankless. They also ran a 1" gas piping for me instead of the standard 3/4" that was already there.

[barto]

Bart, you have quite a few options, you can look at

wall hung boilers which offer modulating burners (allowing to save a lot on gas, just like tankless systems do).

Tankless package set up with a hydronic's system (consisting of heat exchangers, pump's and new smaller expansion tank)

and more..

let me know if you would like more technical details, or to see what packages might suite your needs providing the most savings.

NCHC James - really appreciate the info. Last time I had (briefly) looked into it, I thought I had seen tankless models that claimed to be able to handle both duties, but that's the extent of my research (about 1.5 yrs ago). I don't recall any mention of hydronics system or anything, so I'm happy to soak up whatever you can tell me about such things!

The Wall-hung boiler thing is a new one on me entirely... but sounds promising if it can save on gas consumption! (although I expect even just a new regular boiler would be more energy efficient than this old one!) :D

Thanks - any details you care to provide would be wildly appreciated!!

Bart

[Superchick]

I had mine install recently by enbridge and it's free. they come and do a free inspection to see if they can install it or at what cost. The only thing they will charge me is the rental on the boiler. But keep in mind that my house is a new house. I need more hot water, and either going to get a bigger tank or tankless. decide to try the tankless.
BTW. I got the Made in Japan one Rinnai. And the plumber(private not Direct energy) that I know have check on this tankless boiler after I got it. He said it's really good. All the work they did without charging me already good enough, on top. I got a really good unit.
I did get some quote from retail store, to have a bosch installed. and out of the door is around $2800. You still have to take care if thing doesn't work.
but with Direct energy, they told me parts and labor is include if anything happen.
Since it's free installation. I take my chance to try it. And few year down the road. I decide to buy a unit instead. I will be saving on the majority of the installation base on I already have a tankless installed. And doesnt' require bigger job to replace it for regular tank one to tankless. They also ran a 1" gas piping for me instead of the standard 3/4" that was already there.

Rental cost is $33.50/mth. My old boiler rental cost was $20.99, if I up size to 60Gal $22.99/23.99 forgot which. So.. it's up around $10/mth from, if I replace with a 60gal unit.


When I called Enbridge to enquire they gave me a number of a contractor who wants to charge $400 to do the job which includes $75 to take away the tank. Who did your installation mcmc? I live in the same area as you which is why I would like to get free installation too.

[KSYC]

I had mine install recently by enbridge and it's free. they come and do a free inspection to see if they can install it or at what cost. The only thing they will charge me is the rental on the boiler. But keep in mind that my house is a new house. I need more hot water, and either going to get a bigger tank or tankless. decide to try the tankless.
BTW. I got the Made in Japan one Rinnai. And the plumber(private not Direct energy) that I know have check on this tankless boiler after I got it. He said it's really good. All the work they did without charging me already good enough, on top. I got a really good unit.
I did get some quote from retail store, to have a bosch installed. and out of the door is around $2800. You still have to take care if thing doesn't work.
but with Direct energy, they told me parts and labor is include if anything happen.
Since it's free installation. I take my chance to try it. And few year down the road. I decide to buy a unit instead. I will be saving on the majority of the installation base on I already have a tankless installed. And doesnt' require bigger job to replace it for regular tank one to tankless. They also ran a 1" gas piping for me instead of the standard 3/4" that was already there.

Rental cost is $33.50/mth. My old boiler rental cost was $20.99, if I up size to 60Gal $22.99/23.99 forgot which. So.. it's up around $10/mth from, if I replace with a 60gal unit.

Is there a contract with the tankless rental? I called DE to get more information on the rental and they said you cannot just return the unit after X years. They said you had to buy out the unit. Didn't really make sense to me.

[NCHC James]

NCHC James - really appreciate the info. Last time I had (briefly) looked into it, I thought I had seen tankless models that claimed to be able to handle both duties, but that's the extent of my research (about 1.5 yrs ago). I don't recall any mention of hydronics system or anything, so I'm happy to soak up whatever you can tell me about such things!

The Wall-hung boiler thing is a new one on me entirely... but sounds promising if it can save on gas consumption! (although I expect even just a new regular boiler would be more energy efficient than this old one!) :D

Thanks - any details you care to provide would be wildly appreciated!!

Bart

Tankless does have the ability when putting in what is called hydronics, do not get scared of a fancey term. a boiler is a type of hydronics. what can be done to replace is using either tankless using a closed loop system with a heat exchanger, pump's etc.

the wall hung boiler allows large savings, they are 96% and modulate just like tankless, making it only uses as much fuel as required to heat. with your current boiler, rather it needs to work hard or not it is using 100% of the fuel, modulating can use 40% or maybe even less to heat your home at 96% eff instead of 70% using 100%.

if you would like, we can set up a time and i can come by and chat about these options with you. one thing you can check, there is no pressure with us and i do like to take the time to make sure you understand your options and educate what the system can do for you.




Is there a contract with the tankless rental? I called DE to get more information on the rental and they said you cannot just return the unit after X years. They said you had to buy out the unit. Didn't really make sense to me.


there can be a min amount of time if you just recently had a new rental put into place. if it was there when you moved it, that was not a contract you signed.

and if that is the case, we do return it on your behalf at no extra charge.

[dalman]

Hilarious. My wife and I laugh about the same things. Especially milk bags (thankfully Mac's and the Esso convenience stores carry jugs but there's a 25 cent deposit)!

And yes based on all of the incentives, now's the time to go tankless. Just trying to find someone that will do it for a fair price. The lowest I've found is $2,800 plus GST but I still think that's a rip off considering the unit's retail price is half that or less. So they are making at least $1400 on the install! Not really fair. And some companies are charging upto $3,500!

I have the same feeling. $1400 for a few hours of work, not too bad...

[Torque]

Any advice for someone in Alberta?
I've been debating for a few months.
The prices here are robbery...$4000-5000, and most places don't even want to do them.
Home Depot has a Paloma unit for around $1500, but then you get the song and dance from contractors about warranty, etc.
Other than the 3/4 gas line, it looks so simple to me.
Some plumbers are just using the newness as an excuse to pillage.

[bririp]

$2700 for a rinnai R75 is a steal.The suggested install price is about $3300 or $3500 including basic install. Due to some non-qualified installers low balling jobs to get deals, the industry is seeing cheaper pricing and many new, sloppy installs.

I am not sure where any of you can find a Rinnai R75 for $1400 retail... the Retail list price is $2400, obviously that is the list, but anyone here please show me a retail store where you can go buy one for $1400. You also have to take into consideration everything else you need...

-Venting ($187-$1000)
-Gas piping/extra gas piping (if your gas line isn't 1" or larger) $100-$700
-Gas and plumbing fittings $50
-Plumbing (copper/pex) $100-$200
-Travel Time $xxx
-Insurance $
-Licensing $
-Training
-truck maint.
-gas
-tool wear and tear
-advertising
-etc. etc. etc.

Typically on a $2799 install price we are making less than $500 for the labour. If this takes 3-5 hours depending on the house, for two guys, you get the point, not a lot of money to go around.

Yes, with anything you can find cheap pricing, and you may not feel something is worth what is being charged. Keep in mind you get what you pay for. Every Install we do is done to our best abilities and we treat every job like it could be our last, because dealing with RFD'ers if we mess up, it very well could be our last.

The Rinnai units are by far the best and most proven units on the market and they are worth every penny.

[NCHC James]

$2700 for a rinnai R75 is a steal.The suggested install price is about $3300 or $3500 including basic install. Due to some non-qualified installers low balling jobs to get deals, the industry is seeing cheaper pricing and many new, sloppy installs.

I am not sure where any of you can find a Rinnai R75 for $1400 retail... the Retail list price is $2400, obviously that is the list, but anyone here please show me a retail store where you can go buy one for $1400. You also have to take into consideration everything else you need...

-Venting ($187-$1000)
-Gas piping/extra gas piping (if your gas line isn't 1" or larger) $100-$700
-Gas and plumbing fittings $50
-Plumbing (copper/pex) $100-$200
-Travel Time $xxx
-Insurance $
-Licensing $
-Training
-truck maint.
-gas
-tool wear and tear
-advertising
-etc. etc. etc.

Typically on a $2799 install price we are making less than $500 for the labour. If this takes 3-5 hours depending on the house, for two guys, you get the point, not a lot of money to go around.

Yes, with anything you can find cheap pricing, and you may not feel something is worth what is being charged. Keep in mind you get what you pay for. Every Install we do is done to our best abilities and we treat every job like it could be our last, because dealing with RFD'ers if we mess up, it very well could be our last.

The Rinnai units are by far the best and most proven units on the market and they are worth every penny.

I would like to second the post made here, great points however you forgot to mention that the owner of the company that is taking all the risk of purchasing the products/work trucks/material/employee's etc and when you have taken all the factors out of the price as you just did, trust me when i scratch my head looking at the numbers.

I too would like to see a Rinnai unit sold somewhere at that price, don't see that happening as they are not the cheap equipment you would find at your local DYI.

If the purchased price is higher than expected, Rental is a great option.

[fourtwenty]

If you owe money at the end of the year, the HRTC will bring your payment down, to a maximum of zero owing. You will not switch from owing to refund based on the HRTC refund. It is a non-refundable and will only help reduce your balance owing. TRUST ME! dad works for government.

The reason this whole HRTC was brought into affect was so that more money would be spent and boost the economy. Can't really boost the economy if the government has to fork out an additional $1350 to everyone who does renovations. (i know not everyone will get $1350 back, but it doesn't take long to add up to $10,000).

Yes I agree this will screw alot of people come next March / April.

Also, employers have to deduct a minimum amount of tax from your payroll.

The best thing to do in my opion, if you can, is talk to your HR person and see if they can reduce your payroll deduction if you know you are going to do renovations. Or if you have the chance to receive bonuses without being taxed. Or take money out of RSPs (if there worth anything) and use those to pay for renovations. The government withholds about 10-15% of tax owing on RSP withdrawls, you'll have to pay extra come march but hopefully the HRTC will offset that, thus you are not paying full tax on the RSP withdrawl.

Good luck to all, and let the accounts make all the money next year.

Geez, I am am absolutely amazed at how little people know about taxes!!!! If you paid income tax, you will get some back with the HRTC. It has nothing to do with whether you owe money or not. Leave the tax stuff to people that know what they are talking about. The only people that wouldn't benefit from the HRTC are people that make so little money, they don't have to pay any income tax. These people are unlikely to own a house or have money to do reno's anyways...

[icu_nxtime]

Thanks James !!!

A shameless plug for you. :D

From D in Scarborough !

[YoMoMmA]

I had a thrid party come by from 'newten' and they will do the replacement, take away the water heater and install for free. the monthly rental is 34+gst.

[NCHC James]

Thanks James !!!

A shameless plug for you. :D

From D in Scarborough !


Thanks DB! It was a nice small room to work in, but hope you are still enjoying your system!

[Torque]

ok, how about some help for us suckers, I mean consumers, in Alberta...
I'd like to know how any place can justify $1500 for install. That's robbery.
If it's a simple install, I just don't get it. Even the guy at Home Depot was saying that it's ridiculous.
What options do we have?

[NCHC James]

ok, how about some help for us suckers, I mean consumers, in Alberta...
I'd like to know how any place can justify $1500 for install. That's robbery.
If it's a simple install, I just don't get it. Even the guy at Home Depot was saying that it's ridiculous.
What options do we have?

I had an apprentice move to AB to do installs and see a different area. I do remember him saying costs were different, but i never spent the time to see what they were. i'm not sure what they are paying there vs here, nor do i know if they pay extra's on permits.

For the right professionally trained team it is a straight forward install, especially if (like us) are installing at least one unit a day. Therefore when you see a team like that installing, it looks fairly easy and doesn't take an entire day (typically 3-5hrs depending on what is to be done). An untrained team could take 8 or more hours just for one install.

[grs7]

Looked at tankless this weekend at Home Depot: $1100 on the shelf.
Nice to have a rebate option. Thanks Op.

Plus $700. to $1000. for installation.

[brucered]

Geez, I am am absolutely amazed at how little people know about taxes!!!! If you paid income tax, you will get some back with the HRTC. It has nothing to do with whether you owe money or not. Leave the tax stuff to people that know what they are talking about. The only people that wouldn't benefit from the HRTC are people that make so little money, they don't have to pay any income tax. These people are unlikely to own a house or have money to do reno's anyways...

yeah, i talked to a tax expert (my dad does them) and it will benefit pretty much everyone. my wife and i both work, have a house, pay taxes and have kids. there is no doubt we and everyone else who pays taxes will benefit from the HRTC.

like you said, unless you don't pay taxes or don't pay much at in taxes because you don't make a lot (in that case you probably don't own a home and won't be doing any renos) it will benefit you.

[chanpangchi]

I had mine install recently by enbridge and it's free. they come and do a free inspection to see if they can install it or at what cost. The only thing they will charge me is the rental on the boiler. But keep in mind that my house is a new house. I need more hot water, and either going to get a bigger tank or tankless. decide to try the tankless.
BTW. I got the Made in Japan one Rinnai. And the plumber(private not Direct energy) that I know have check on this tankless boiler after I got it. He said it's really good. All the work they did without charging me already good enough, on top. I got a really good unit.
I did get some quote from retail store, to have a bosch installed. and out of the door is around $2800. You still have to take care if thing doesn't work.
but with Direct energy, they told me parts and labor is include if anything happen.
Since it's free installation. I take my chance to try it. And few year down the road. I decide to buy a unit instead. I will be saving on the majority of the installation base on I already have a tankless installed. And doesnt' require bigger job to replace it for regular tank one to tankless. They also ran a 1" gas piping for me instead of the standard 3/4" that was already there.

Rental cost is $33.50/mth. My old boiler rental cost was $20.99, if I up size to 60Gal $22.99/23.99 forgot which. So.. it's up around $10/mth from, if I replace with a 60gal unit.

What is your model number?

[agiga]

$2700 for a rinnai R75 is a steal.The suggested install price is about $3300 or $3500 including basic install. Due to some non-qualified installers low balling jobs to get deals, the industry is seeing cheaper pricing and many new, sloppy installs.

I am not sure where any of you can find a Rinnai R75 for $1400 retail... the Retail list price is $2400, obviously that is the list, but anyone here please show me a retail store where you can go buy one for $1400. You also have to take into consideration everything else you need...

-Venting ($187-$1000)
-Gas piping/extra gas piping (if your gas line isn't 1" or larger) $100-$700
-Gas and plumbing fittings $50
-Plumbing (copper/pex) $100-$200
-Travel Time $xxx
-Insurance $
-Licensing $
-Training
-truck maint.
-gas
-tool wear and tear
-advertising
-etc. etc. etc.

Typically on a $2799 install price we are making less than $500 for the labour. If this takes 3-5 hours depending on the house, for two guys, you get the point, not a lot of money to go around.

Yes, with anything you can find cheap pricing, and you may not feel something is worth what is being charged. Keep in mind you get what you pay for. Every Install we do is done to our best abilities and we treat every job like it could be our last, because dealing with RFD'ers if we mess up, it very well could be our last.

The Rinnai units are by far the best and most proven units on the market and they are worth every penny.

Quick search came up with this unit for $1100 US
http://www.kitchen-bath-plus.com/product_info.php/cPath/1_238/products_id/3462

[bririp]

wow...really. What about the shipping, exchange rate, how about a CSA approval....

[dalman]

wow...really. What about the shipping, exchange rate, how about a CSA approval....

I am not blaming contractors to make money but maybe government who regulate should take the blame of making the price so high. This code and that code plus all the administration fees add up on the price of the unit and installation. But is it all necessary cost? Can we do something to make it lower so everyone can save planet without having to spend 3000+ on a water heater?

[agiga]

wow...really. What about the shipping, exchange rate, how about a CSA approval....

Shipping is free in the US, no idea about shipping to Canada but I'd get it shipped to a UPS store across the border and they charge $5.00 to hold the package until I pick it up. With the exchange rate at a modest 1.30 it comes to $1440. Even if you add taxes and duty you're at $1750. So we're still getting charged $1,000 + for install which is a rip off esp. considering I have a new home with a power vented tank so the retrofit is not even as big of an issue as it would be in a larger home. (That is not my assessment, but the assessment of two companies I called).

[Gryphon]

wow...really. What about the shipping, exchange rate, how about a CSA approval....

The Rinnai products have already had CSA approval.
R75 is available accross the borders.

[Gryphon]

Bririp, I have a question for a long time. I wonder if you have the answer.

I installed a Rinnai R53i for my new home in 2008 by Direct Energy. At that time, the rental is $32.6+tax, and the buyout price is $2436 tax included. In 2009, Rinnai discontinued R53i and started offering R75, there is no change on winter water flow (both ~4gal/min at 75F temp. rise). Direct Energy charges almost same for rental $33+tax. But DE raised the buyout price to $3000+tax (a 39% hike).

My friend is planning to have a R75 this year but he is reluctant because of the price difference.

Apparently DE didn't lose money when installing my R53i. But why does DE charge much more for R75 buyout when the rental is almost same? A ripoff?

Thanks.

[QUOTE=bririp;8474416]wow...really. QUOTE]

[johnsmithy]

Tankless does have the ability when putting in what is called hydronics, do not get scared of a fancey term. a boiler is a type of hydronics. what can be done to replace is using either tankless using a closed loop system with a heat exchanger, pump's etc.

the wall hung boiler allows large savings, they are 96% and modulate just like tankless, making it only uses as much fuel as required to heat. with your current boiler, rather it needs to work hard or not it is using 100% of the fuel, modulating can use 40% or maybe even less to heat your home at 96% eff instead of 70% using 100%.

if you would like, we can set up a time and i can come by and chat about these options with you. one thing you can check, there is no pressure with us and i do like to take the time to make sure you understand your options and educate what the system can do for you.


Hi James,

I hope you might have some insight into a problem I'm having. I had a wall hung modulating (but not condensing) combi-unit (one unit that is both a boiler & tankless water heater) installed last summer when I was finishing my basement. Over the last winter I've been comparing the gas consumption to the previous year when we were using a 15year old cast iron boiler (natural venting) and a mid-efficiency 50 gallon hot water tank. Other changes from the previous year was 4 additional radiators in the basement and we replaced most of the older windows with energystar ones.

I didn't expect a huge savings but I expected some (I had previous owners tell me between 15% and 40% savings). I've had the installers come in to look at this but they don't really seem to have any answers either. They told me that the modulation setting was too high and they turned this down but I haven't seen a difference.

The unit is a Baxi Luna 310 which is rated up to 86%. The house is a 1912 brick semi in Toronto about 2500sq. ft. (including newly finished basement). 16 radiators in total. Past 3 gas bills have been used between 700 and 800 cubic meters of gas (~$300/month).

It doesn't appear to be short cycling since I don't see it turning on and off frequently. The installers felt that it was right sized (although I don't think they did a heat loss calculation) and when I check the temperature of the return water, it still feels pretty hot.

Any idea what it might be?

Thanks.

[SJD]

Shipping is free in the US, no idea about shipping to Canada but I'd get it shipped to a UPS store across the border and they charge $5.00 to hold the package until I pick it up. With the exchange rate at a modest 1.30 it comes to $1440. Even if you add taxes and duty you're at $1750. So we're still getting charged $1,000 + for install which is a rip off esp. considering I have a new home with a power vented tank so the retrofit is not even as big of an issue as it would be in a larger home. (That is not my assessment, but the assessment of two companies I called).

Even cheaper here:
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453059452

Rinnai doesn't approve of internet resellers but this place warranties all the products they sell and they ship to Canada. I'd rather ship to an address over the border and bring it across myself to eliminate the custom clearance fee and ensure I'd be just paying Cdn. taxes and not further duties on top of it. Doing so, at the current exchange rate you're talking less than $1500 Cdn. There are plenty more authorized distributors selling equally good Takagi units and the Takagi warranty states that the products are covered in Canada and the States as long as installed by a qualified technician.
http://www.wamhomecenter.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=981&idproduct=5697

Personally I believe it is the Cdn. distributors who are jacking up the prices and less likely the contractors. I've been debating about going tankless or with an indirect water heater on top of my boiler to meet my high flow rate demands. I find it unbelievable that I can get a 300lb water heater shipped to me here for about half the price of what a couple of contractors have quoted me for the same unit at "their cost".

[johnsmithy]

I've had a Baxi Luna 310 combi unit for the past 8 months or so. This unit both heats the house (I have hot water radiators) and the domestic water. Since this thread is related to tankless water heaters, I'll just share my experience with that feature of this unit.

Pros:
- can actually fill the bathtub with hot water without running out; however, it takes a long time since the unit can only heat about 3 gallons per minute.
- frees up a ton of space! i was able to remove all of the mechanicals (boiler & hot water tank) and put this one little wall unit in the back of the house and free up about 100 sq. ft.
- should save on gas bills but can't say for sure

Cons:
- need to get use to the hot water taking a bit longer to get to the tap
- can't run more than a couple of taps at once (depends on the size of the unit)
- expensive up front costs (this unit costs about $8K installed, partly due to moving the location of the pipes to the back of the house)
- may not pay for itself in the lifetime of the unit (depends on how much you're saving)

[agiga]

Even cheaper here:
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453059452

Rinnai doesn't approve of internet resellers but this place warranties all the products they sell and they ship to Canada. I'd rather ship to an address over the border and bring it across myself to eliminate the custom clearance fee and ensure I'd be just paying Cdn. taxes and not further duties on top of it. Doing so, at the current exchange rate you're talking less than $1500 Cdn. There are plenty more authorized distributors selling equally good Takagi units and the Takagi warranty states that the products are covered in Canada and the States as long as installed by a qualified technician.
http://www.wamhomecenter.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=981&idproduct=5697

Personally I believe it is the Cdn. distributors who are jacking up the prices and less likely the contractors. I've been debating about going tankless or with an indirect water heater on top of my boiler to meet my high flow rate demands. I find it unbelievable that I can get a 300lb water heater shipped to me here for about half the price of what a couple of contractors have quoted me for the same unit at "their cost".

It sucks that we keep getting burned by Canadian companies trying to make a gross profit and using warranties and certifications to justify it. In fact one company told me my home insurance requires I have an electrician, a plumber, and a gas fitter all work on the install and that's why the price is so high!

Price gouging happened with cars that were cheaper in the US (though prices are starting to align a bit only because of the devaluation of the Canadian dollar) but the fact that now these water heaters are almost twice the price here is quite ridiculous. Is there not a government agency that will look into this and deal with it within a reasonable time frame?

Installers/resellers that are on this forum what do you have to say?

[agiga]

Bririp, I have a question for a long time. I wonder if you have the answer.

I installed a Rinnai R53i for my new home in 2008 by Direct Energy. At that time, the rental is $32.6+tax, and the buyout price is $2436 tax included. In 2009, Rinnai discontinued R53i and started offering R75, there is no change on winter water flow (both ~4gal/min at 75F temp. rise). Direct Energy charges almost same for rental $33+tax. But DE raised the buyout price to $3000+tax (a 39% hike).

My friend is planning to have a R75 this year but he is reluctant because of the price difference.

Apparently DE didn't lose money when installing my R53i. But why does DE charge much more for R75 buyout when the rental is almost same? A ripoff?

Thanks.

[QUOTE=bririp;8474416]wow...really. QUOTE]

Classic rip-off. They know everyone is charging $3,000 so why not charge the same.

[drunkgoat]

@agiga

there was a study a while back by some economists basically saying that even after considering the differences and relevant factors between CAN and USA, goods in Canada were a still a certain % higher than for the same goods right across the border. With the absence of any systemic or logical reason to account for the differences, the only conclusion they could come up with is that Canadian consumers were comfortable with overpaying (relative to the USA).

I can't find that article now, but here's another interesting one from MacClanes:

"According to a recent report by BMO Capital Markets, prices of consumer goods in Canada are, overall, 18 per cent higher than in the United States. That's down from 24 per cent in 2007, but the gap is still "extraordinarily large," says Douglas Porter, deputy chief economist at BMO.

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0013270

[agiga]

@agiga

there was a study a while back by some economists basically saying that even after considering the differences and relevant factors between CAN and USA, goods in Canada were a still a certain % higher than for the same goods right across the border. With the absence of any systemic or logical reason to account for the differences, the only conclusion they could come up with is that Canadian consumers were comfortable with overpaying (relative to the USA).

I can't find that article now, but here's another interesting one from MacClanes:

"According to a recent report by BMO Capital Markets, prices of consumer goods in Canada are, overall, 18 per cent higher than in the United States. That's down from 24 per cent in 2007, but the gap is still "extraordinarily large," says Douglas Porter, deputy chief economist at BMO.

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0013270

Thanks. Great article. Wonder what we can do collectively about these water heater prices....

[Inno]

Thanks. Great article. Wonder what we can do collectively about these water heater prices....

Simple: if enough people start crossing to Buffalo to buy them there, the Can. distributors/scammers will smarten up and lower prices to compete. It's simple economics. They are charnging what the market will bear and will do so until the market won't bear it any more.

People get lazy about comparison-shopping when there is a govt. rebate and the sellers know this. So they are the ones who benefit from the rebate really, not us, by building in an extra profit for themselves.

[Zozon]

I would like to second the post made here, great points however you forgot to mention that the owner of the company that is taking all the risk of purchasing the products/work trucks/material/employee's etc and when you have taken all the factors out of the price as you just did, trust me when i scratch my head looking at the numbers.

I too would like to see a Rinnai unit sold somewhere at that price, don't see that happening as they are not the cheap equipment you would find at your local DYI.

If the purchased price is higher than expected, Rental is a great option.


James,
What do you charge for unit (R75) and installation ?
Thanks.

[halo five]

Gas-only and having to pay someone for installation kills this deal for me.

Living in a townhome I have no way of getting gas hookups. And installing an electric unit is straightforward, if you can sweat pipes and your service can handle the load.

I'll wait 'til the government starts giving out rebate coupons for tankless heaters along with the CFL / T8 ballast / programmable thermostat / low flow toilet coupon flyers that come out yearly.

[Keigotw]

I had mine install recently by enbridge and it's free. they come and do a free inspection to see if they can install it or at what cost. The only thing they will charge me is the rental on the boiler. But keep in mind that my house is a new house. I need more hot water, and either going to get a bigger tank or tankless. decide to try the tankless.
BTW. I got the Made in Japan one Rinnai. And the plumber(private not Direct energy) that I know have check on this tankless boiler after I got it. He said it's really good. All the work they did without charging me already good enough, on top. I got a really good unit.
I did get some quote from retail store, to have a bosch installed. and out of the door is around $2800. You still have to take care if thing doesn't work.
but with Direct energy, they told me parts and labor is include if anything happen.
Since it's free installation. I take my chance to try it. And few year down the road. I decide to buy a unit instead. I will be saving on the majority of the installation base on I already have a tankless installed. And doesnt' require bigger job to replace it for regular tank one to tankless. They also ran a 1" gas piping for me instead of the standard 3/4" that was already there.

Rental cost is $33.50/mth. My old boiler rental cost was $20.99, if I up size to 60Gal $22.99/23.99 forgot which. So.. it's up around $10/mth from, if I replace with a 60gal unit.

When I called Enbridge to enquire they gave me a number of a contractor who wants to charge $400 to do the job which includes $75 to take away the tank. Who did your installation mcmc? I live in the same area as you which is why I would like to get free installation too.

would like to know too, how did you get free installation?

[agiga]

Simple: if enough people start crossing to Buffalo to buy them there, the Can. distributors/scammers will smarten up and lower prices to compete. It's simple economics. They are charnging what the market will bear and will do so until the market won't bear it any more.

People get lazy about comparison-shopping when there is a govt. rebate and the sellers know this. So they are the ones who benefit from the rebate really, not us, by building in an extra profit for themselves.

Agreed and that's what we did with our car but the problem is finding an installer and in my case a Rinnai certified installer.

[Jon Lai]

So these tanks are upwards of $1000? In that case the $300 doesn't help much... I mean, if it was cheap I'd do it, otherwise I have that "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" mentality :P

[agiga]

So these tanks are upwards of $1000? In that case the $300 doesn't help much... I mean, if it was cheap I'd do it, otherwise I have that "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" mentality :P

There's more than $300 back, read the earlier discussions in this thread plus factor in the monthly savings of switching from tankless to tank. Over 6 years or less you're well ahead.

[barto]

Tankless does have the ability when putting in what is called hydronics, do not get scared of a fancey term. a boiler is a type of hydronics. what can be done to replace is using either tankless using a closed loop system with a heat exchanger, pump's etc.

the wall hung boiler allows large savings, they are 96% and modulate just like tankless, making it only uses as much fuel as required to heat. with your current boiler, rather it needs to work hard or not it is using 100% of the fuel, modulating can use 40% or maybe even less to heat your home at 96% eff instead of 70% using 100%.

if you would like, we can set up a time and i can come by and chat about these options with you. one thing you can check, there is no pressure with us and i do like to take the time to make sure you understand your options and educate what the system can do for you.


Next time you're in Edmonton, you mean? :D Too bad you're not nearby or I would definitely take you up on your kind offer.

So we're likely better off (for now) just replacing the boiler with a wall-hung boiler. What's the difference between a wall-hung boiler and a tankless system? Price range for a wall-hung boiler? Some brand names to suggest (Rinnai as well)?

Thanks!!

Bart

[sajkaj]

Hey James pm me.
Thanks

[prue2003]

Read an article here, http://www.carbonbusters.org/handbook/updates/readers.php. The author lives in Toronto, installed a Borsch tankless water heater by a "trusted plumber", costs $150.

Anyone know plumbers can be trusted? I am not too concerned with the heater's brand. This thing has been around the world for many many years, every house in Asian or European cities has one, how advanced the technology can be?

[agiga]

Read an article here, http://www.carbonbusters.org/handbook/updates/readers.php. The author lives in Toronto, installed a Borsch tankless water heater by a "trusted plumber", costs $150.

Anyone know plumbers can be trusted? I am not too concerned with the heater's brand. This thing has been around the world for many many years, every house in Asian or European cities has one, how advanced the technology can be?

Excellent, thanks for this. I think this will go a long way to helping people get fair prices on tankless water heaters. Now to find an installer.

[joongpark]

Excellent, thanks for this. I think this will go a long way to helping people get fair prices on tankless water heaters. Now to find an installer.

What does "Trusted Plumber" mean?
It's dealing with gas so I would not want anyone touching it unleass he is certified and insured/bonded.

I am having a tankless water heater from my heating/AC contractor and I will let you know how it goes. He suggested Navien instead of Rinnai. He says it's more efficient and reliable.

I had furnace and AC installed and he had the best price and he was the most professional.

My Audit is in less than a month so I will get it done next week and post a review.

P.S. Has anyone had experience with Navien Tankless Water Heater?

[moose3833]

For those taking the plunge, or those who have but haven't submitted for their eco-energy rebates yet, there is potential to save some more money.

I'm on a climate change board and, through various connections, have heard that the recent addition of $300M in funds the federal government put into the program is rumored to be used to not only extend (apparently the program was running out of money) and expand the program, but to increase the rebate amount. The increase is expected to be about 20% from current levels but there is no indication that they're taking a blanket approach or targeting specific retrofits. Expect early april for an announcement.

Plus, for those in Alberta, the provincial gov't is also expected to announce incentives in the spring budget.

As with all things with the gov't, one should be wary of the date the retrofit occurs. For example, the home renovation tax credit only applies to renos done after the program was announced. If you can, please wait a month or two, i know i am. I'm looking at a high efficiency furnace, heat recovery ventilator and, if the price is right, tankless water heater or some type of power vent tank.

Any further news in regards to more gov't incentives?

[Jon Lai]

There's more than $300 back, read the earlier discussions in this thread plus factor in the monthly savings of switching from tankless to tank. Over 6 years or less you're well ahead.

Yea, but 6 years is a long time. Usually my investments return much sooner than that :P

Also, doesn't it take a bit longer for the water to warm up?

[NCHC James]

Next time you're in Edmonton, you mean? :D Too bad you're not nearby or I would definitely take you up on your kind offer.

So we're likely better off (for now) just replacing the boiler with a wall-hung boiler. What's the difference between a wall-hung boiler and a tankless system? Price range for a wall-hung boiler? Some brand names to suggest (Rinnai as well)?

Thanks!!

Bart


Must have missed the area you are in lol. there are a few wall hung boiler's, the Knight is great (but very pricy) which also modulates just the the Rinnai tankless does. with tankless you can't use it primarly as a boiler, but can use it as a package set up. a proper dealer would know what he can and can not do with it. the efficiency of a standard mid boiler vs a modulating 96% is a HUGE difference on savings, it is a smart system too. it only uses as much energy as required, not full throttle when only needing a little energy.



Read an article here, http://www.carbonbusters.org/handbook/updates/readers.php. The author lives in Toronto, installed a Borsch tankless water heater by a "trusted plumber", costs $150.

Anyone know plumbers can be trusted? I am not too concerned with the heater's brand. This thing has been around the world for many many years, every house in Asian or European cities has one, how advanced the technology can be?


this trusted plumber needs to hold a gas fitter lic, or not very trusted. two different fields and gas is something not to play with. if you attempt to, be a good person and let you neighbours know so they can book a hotel.

What does "Trusted Plumber" mean?
It's dealing with gas so I would not want anyone touching it unleass he is certified and insured/bonded.

I am having a tankless water heater from my heating/AC contractor and I will let you know how it goes. He suggested Navien instead of Rinnai. He says it's more efficient and reliable.

I had furnace and AC installed and he had the best price and he was the most professional.

My Audit is in less than a month so I will get it done next week and post a review.

P.S. Has anyone had experience with Navien Tankless Water Heater?


Navien has some great idea's with their system, really it will be a great product once they get the bugs out of it. i have spoken with quite a few contractors that have installed many over the last year and wish they didn't.


Yea, but 6 years is a long time. Usually my investments return much sooner than that :P

Also, doesn't it take a bit longer for the water to warm up?

6 year comparison is good if you were not thinking of changing your tank for another tank/tankless. if you were to compare the cost of a tank/install/material/labour vs tankless/install/material/labour your pay back should be no more than two years. however with all the rebates now offered including the Enbridge rebate, i would say within a year.

[Torque]

This is where we got our tankless system almost 2 years ago :) www.tanklesswaterheaters.ca

I hope that the smiley face means that it was a good experience. :razz:
I just ordered a system from these guys.
Home Depot has Paloma too, but not the newer direct vent system.

[Keigotw]

I hope that the smiley face means that it was a good experience. :razz:
I just ordered a system from these guys.
Home Depot has Paloma too, but not the newer direct vent system.

how much?

[patrob]

I hope that the smiley face means that it was a good experience. :razz:
I just ordered a system from these guys.
Home Depot has Paloma too, but not the newer direct vent system.

Very good experience :) I love my tankless. I just wish there were rebates like these back then when I got it :(

What model did you get?

[agiga]

It sucks that we keep getting burned by Canadian companies trying to make a gross profit and using warranties and certifications to justify it. In fact one company told me my home insurance requires I have an electrician, a plumber, and a gas fitter all work on the install and that's why the price is so high!

Price gouging happened with cars that were cheaper in the US (though prices are starting to align a bit only because of the devaluation of the Canadian dollar) but the fact that now these water heaters are almost twice the price here is quite ridiculous. Is there not a government agency that will look into this and deal with it within a reasonable time frame?

Installers/resellers that are on this forum what do you have to say?


Will none of the installers/resellers on this site respond to this? We are accusing your industry of ripping us off by selling us a unit that is available in the US for less than $1000 US and selling it to us consumers for $3000+ installed! How can you justify that?

[agiga]

This is where we got our tankless system almost 2 years ago :) www.tanklesswaterheaters.ca

That site seems like a rip off. But then again so is every Canadian retailer I've found so far

Look at the price comparison on these identical Takagi units:

$2993 Canadian
http://www.tanklesswaterheaters.ca/takmobtm1.html

$1635 US
http://www.homecenter.com/product_Takagi_Appliances_Household_Appliances_Tan kless_Water_HeaterMoebius_208658.html?zmam=2408104 3&zmas=1&zmac=28&zmap=T-M1

[NCHC James]

Will none of the installers/resellers on this site respond to this? We are accusing your industry of ripping us off by selling us a unit that is available in the US for less than $1000 US and selling it to us consumers for $3000+ installed! How can you justify that?

this has been answered a few pages ago, i will quote it for you. it was also mentioned that if the HVAC guys were making as much as you think, do you think we would all drive workvans or work trucks? yet never seen driving exotic cars, nor Caddilac trucks etc. Blue colar workers are great people, we take care of needs of others while working on keeping a roof over our head for ourselves/family and famlies of the workers.

have you ever looked at what future shop pays for a tv that you paid $3000-5000 for?

$2700 for a rinnai R75 is a steal.The suggested install price is about $3300 or $3500 including basic install. Due to some non-qualified installers low balling jobs to get deals, the industry is seeing cheaper pricing and many new, sloppy installs.

I am not sure where any of you can find a Rinnai R75 for $1400 retail... the Retail list price is $2400, obviously that is the list, but anyone here please show me a retail store where you can go buy one for $1400. You also have to take into consideration everything else you need...

-Venting ($187-$1000)
-Gas piping/extra gas piping (if your gas line isn't 1" or larger) $100-$700
-Gas and plumbing fittings $50
-Plumbing (copper/pex) $100-$200
-Travel Time $xxx
-Insurance $
-Licensing $
-Training
-truck maint.
-gas
-tool wear and tear
-advertising
-etc. etc. etc.

Typically on a $2799 install price we are making less than $500 for the labour. If this takes 3-5 hours depending on the house, for two guys, you get the point, not a lot of money to go around.

Yes, with anything you can find cheap pricing, and you may not feel something is worth what is being charged. Keep in mind you get what you pay for. Every Install we do is done to our best abilities and we treat every job like it could be our last, because dealing with RFD'ers if we mess up, it very well could be our last.

The Rinnai units are by far the best and most proven units on the market and they are worth every penny.



I would like to second the post made here, great points however you forgot to mention that the owner of the company that is taking all the risk of purchasing the products/work trucks/material/employee's etc and when you have taken all the factors out of the price as you just did, trust me when i scratch my head looking at the numbers.

I too would like to see a Rinnai unit sold somewhere at that price, don't see that happening as they are not the cheap equipment you would find at your local DYI.

If the purchased price is higher than expected, Rental is a great option.

[agiga]

Last week I called a Canadian company and asked for a quote for a Rinnai R75LSI installed. They quoted me $3,000. I just talked to that same company and asked them how much they charge for the installation alone and they quoted me $800. I then asked how much would they charge for the unit alone and he said $1200. I then asked said, so that would be $2,000 total? And he said well, we don't do anything for under $2400. And I said well I don't understand. And he said well that covers the cost of sending our guys out etc.

Explain that.

[agiga]

this has been answered a few pages ago, i will quote it for you. it was also mentioned that if the HVAC guys were making as much as you think, do you think we would all drive workvans or work trucks? yet never seen driving exotic cars, nor Caddilac trucks etc. Blue colar workers are great people, we take care of needs of others while working on keeping a roof over our head for ourselves/family and famlies of the workers.

have you ever looked at what future shop pays for a tv that you paid $3000-5000 for?

I'm not saying the HVAC guys are the ones taking the big profit. Someone is and this needs to be explained.

And btw no one is buying a $5,000 tv from Future Shop. Thanks to the same debate and the resulting competition and consumers shopping across the border, the prices on tvs have come down to a reasonable $1000 - $1500. Time for prices on tankless water heaters in Canada to do the same.

[bpopd]

Yea, but 6 years is a long time. Usually my investments return much sooner than that :P

Also, doesn't it take a bit longer for the water to warm up?

The tankless system is instant hot water ...wee...unless you arent talking about this.

[Jon Lai]

The tankless system is instant hot water ...wee...unless you arent talking about this.

Do you have one? Because from what I know, it's not. In HK, each bathroom has a similar, small tankless water heater powered by natural gas, and I can assure you the water takes 1-2 minutes to warm up.

[rabbit5]

I have a Rinnai for the last 3 years for our entire house with 3 bathrooms. The system heats up right away but it does takes time for the hot water to flow from the system to your shower. Just like a regular hot water tank, if you have not use your hot water you will have to run the hot water for a few minutes just to flush out the cold water.

[drunkgoat]

Can anyone with a tankless system please comment on the following (sorry if this was already discussed).

I've heard complaints that some tankless systems only provide a trickle of very hot water to which you would need to mix the cold water to get a strong stream out of the faucet. This however means that the temperature of the strong stream is warm at best.

Is this true for systems like the Rinnai R75? Will I be able to get a strong stream of hot water out of the faucet?

[User Name]

I was reading the box of the tankless heater they had at Home Depot and it said it raises the ambient temp of the source water by only 25 degrees, then on the side they had a chart and it stated max temp was 49C. If you want a max temp of 60C you have to buy the higher end unit.

Also, the vent kit cost $350 for a 3" and $450 for a 4"... that is some expensive vent.

[breakfasteatre]

Me and my girlfriend, 1300sqft home, one bathroom, possibly 1 dishwasher in the future but currently handwashing.

Im assuming the less you use your hot water, the bigger the benefit of going tankless? Does this make sense?

[VLeung]

IMHO, these tankless systems (the wall unit) probably would not cost more than $1,000 for some large Canadian Distributors and re-sellers.

It is just that these things are still pretty new to the Canadian market, labeled as GREEN and with some gov. incentives, the local suppliers / contractors can get away with charging their customers with some substantial profits.

For me, I don't think this is the right time to buy your own tankless system yet.
I'll rather rent it for now at some reasonable monthly charges.
( And I did get a good Rental Deal from a local contractor that I am now paying less than I used to pay to Enbridge for rental with no up-front cost. )

Two years down the road, I guess these things can be selling around $500 to $700. ( There isn't much high-tech stuff inside the unit. )
But still the major concern is how to get these things maintained / repaired at some reasonable cost if you own it yourself !?

I think with most of these tankless system, there are still some minor technical issues on the fluctuation of output water temperature.
It is actually mentioned in the user manual and known as 'Sandwich' effect, i.e. hot, cold, hot...
For most users, this will take some time to get used to this kind of NEW effects.
Other than that, yes, it certainly will save some $$$ from your gas bill.

;)

[bpopd]

IMHO, these tankless systems (the wall unit) probably would not cost more than $1,000 for some large Canadian Distributors and re-sellers.

It is just that these things are still pretty new to the Canadian market, labeled as GREEN and with some gov. incentives, the local suppliers / contractors can get away with charging their customers with some substantial profits.

For me, I don't think this is the right time to buy your own tankless system yet.
I'll rather rent it for now at some reasonable monthly charges.
( And I did get a good Rental Deal from a local contractor that I am now paying less than I used to pay to Enbridge for rental with no up-front cost. )

Two years down the road, I guess these things can be selling around $500 to $700. ( There isn't much high-tech stuff inside the unit. )
But still the major concern is how to get these things maintained / repaired at some reasonable cost if you own it yourself !?

I think with most of these tankless system, there are still some minor technical issues on the fluctuation of output water temperature.
It is actually mentioned in the user manual and known as 'Sandwich' effect, i.e. hot, cold, hot...
For most users, this will take some time to get used to this kind of NEW effects.
Other than that, yes, it certainly will save some $$$ from your gas bill.

;)

Sounds complicated, but I know practically all restaurants use tankless water heaters... Not 1 obviously, but maybe 5-6 high BTU units for like a restaurant the size of 'the keg'.

[Genblue]

Maybe it's time to start a Rinnai tankless group buy to see what our buying power can do....

[agiga]

Maybe it's time to start a Rinnai tankless group buy to see what our buying power can do....

Great idea!

[rabbit5]

IMO, I have the Rinnai for 3 years now and the savings are ok (about $100/year) but the main benefit for us is that the hot water temp is constant everytime you take a shower. So for our household of 4 adults + 2 kids, you will never get warm water for a shower. Even after 5 one hour showers, you can just jump right in and get a hot shower without having to wait.

[fiiibra]

A rinnai tankless is 1100-1300 cost depending on your buying power. Install is 1/2 a day. The expensive part is the proprietary venting pieces.:eek:

The rebate for the tankless is $500 ($250 ecoenergy, $250 by the province) plus the Enbridge rebate. Now is a good time to buy because of the rebates.:D

My husband and I work for an HVAC company in Ottawa, he sells them. We bought one because of the rebates, not for the energy savings as they are not substantial enough savings to have a fast payback. Though I will say, I love not having a big hot water tank taking up valuable space in my basement.:cool:

Our HVAC company can get group pricing for more than 10 I believe, those who would be interested (in the Ottawa area), feel free to PM.

[NCHC James]

I'm not saying the HVAC guys are the ones taking the big profit. Someone is and this needs to be explained.

And btw no one is buying a $5,000 tv from Future Shop. Thanks to the same debate and the resulting competition and consumers shopping across the border, the prices on tvs have come down to a reasonable $1000 - $1500. Time for prices on tankless water heaters in Canada to do the same.


Actually there are a lot of ppl buying that cost of tv's, not everyone is looking for the cheapest, some want quality. the one i dream about is above the $3000 mark, and i get to keep dreaming lol And i'm not asking the box store to answer for the high cost, we all know that's not what they are paying, but to have a store and give jobs it all has costs.

Do you have one? Because from what I know, it's not. In HK, each bathroom has a similar, small tankless water heater powered by natural gas, and I can assure you the water takes 1-2 minutes to warm up.

The ones you are mentioning are not exactly the same, although they came from that orginal design it has been much improved and provides hotwater typically to the tap in 10-15 seconds. read next quote.


I have a Rinnai for the last 3 years for our entire house with 3 bathrooms. The system heats up right away but it does takes time for the hot water to flow from the system to your shower. Just like a regular hot water tank, if you have not use your hot water you will have to run the hot water for a few minutes just to flush out the cold water.

Great suggestion. it can add time delay when not used for extended times.

Can anyone with a tankless system please comment on the following (sorry if this was already discussed).

I've heard complaints that some tankless systems only provide a trickle of very hot water to which you would need to mix the cold water to get a strong stream out of the faucet. This however means that the temperature of the strong stream is warm at best.

Is this true for systems like the Rinnai R75? Will I be able to get a strong stream of hot water out of the faucet?

if this is the case happening, what should be done is turn down the temperature down on the tankless, the request is very high and not needed. although it can produce a high temp why would you want to? the advantage is to choose the temperature you would like to show with hot only, why heat it higher to cool it off?

suggest to your friend to turn the temp down and will notice a big difference.



Me and my girlfriend, 1300sqft home, one bathroom, possibly 1 dishwasher in the future but currently handwashing.

Im assuming the less you use your hot water, the bigger the benefit of going tankless? Does this make sense?


really with tankless it's always in your favour, if you don't use it much you are saving, if you are using it you are saving. a hotwater tank that is approx 10yrs old natural gas after a 10 min shower will take on average 60 mins to recover, while an electric hotwater tank will take up to 96mins. this can be found on Rinnai's website www.foreverhotwater.com.

IMHO, these tankless systems (the wall unit) probably would not cost more than $1,000 for some large Canadian Distributors and re-sellers.

It is just that these things are still pretty new to the Canadian market, labeled as GREEN and with some gov. incentives, the local suppliers / contractors can get away with charging their customers with some substantial profits.

For me, I don't think this is the right time to buy your own tankless system yet.
I'll rather rent it for now at some reasonable monthly charges.
( And I did get a good Rental Deal from a local contractor that I am now paying less than I used to pay to Enbridge for rental with no up-front cost. )

Two years down the road, I guess these things can be selling around $500 to $700. ( There isn't much high-tech stuff inside the unit. )
But still the major concern is how to get these things maintained / repaired at some reasonable cost if you own it yourself !?

I think with most of these tankless system, there are still some minor technical issues on the fluctuation of output water temperature.
It is actually mentioned in the user manual and known as 'Sandwich' effect, i.e. hot, cold, hot...
For most users, this will take some time to get used to this kind of NEW effects.
Other than that, yes, it certainly will save some $$$ from your gas bill.

;)

it has been avaliable in Canada for 12+years now, and other countries for 40-60years.

technically speaking, adjusting from our luxury of 50 or more gallons of hotwater sitting and heating for us to use vs a unit that only applies heat when on demand and taking a few seconds to provide heat, isn't a technical issue. just a learning curve from what you have lived with on a wasting and luxury hotwater storage device.

[Heynow999]

This is a bit off topic, but I know that Enbridge is trying to get into the solar water heating market in the GTA. They had a meeting with a lot of HVAC contractor recently and got bids from them to install solar heaters for Enbridge. They are going to squeeze the solar panel suppliers, and squeeze the installers, convince (bribe) some polititicians to give better rebates so that they will be able to install a low cost system on your house. They will then finance the systems and make a ton of money for little work. This is the business model for water heaters. Why would anyone rent a water heater? It is the most reliable appliance in your house. Anywhere else in the world everyone buys them.

[NCHC James]

wanted to share what comes out of a hotwater tank, i drained a typical 15+yr natural draft natural gas hotwater tank.


here is the water from mid point draining.

http://www.naturalchoiceonline.ca/gallery/images/portfolios/water_from_a_htowater_tank.jpg



here is the inside, i later cut into it and wanted to share what it looks like inside

http://www.naturalchoiceonline.ca/gallery/images/portfolios/inside_a_hotwater_tank_2.jpg

[Heynow999]

I agree James

But has that tank had any maintenance done to it? You need to flush a tank every few years and the anode rod needs to be replaced every three years. I know no one does it, but I own my electric tank and I plan on changing the anode rod soon. I can see the rod is gone and the tank has rusted. Nice work though, looks cool

[NCHC James]

I agree James

But has that tank had any maintenance done to it? You need to flush a tank every few years and the anode rod needs to be replaced every three years. I know no one does it, but I own my electric tank and I plan on changing the anode rod soon. I can see the rod is gone and the tank has rusted. Nice work though, looks cool


You are right, tanks do need servicing... I have yet to have a customer in the years i've been in the trade to call in for or want their tank serviced

if you do, good for you! most don't. This tank wasn't even the worst, it's an average one we've removed. the other i took out yesterday was MUCH worse shape. i wanted to show what the average tank is like

[Torque]

how much?

$1688 with the stainless steel concentric vent kit.
I looked on fleabay, and all that stuff. The Rinnai prices are tempting. But, start adding up the costs of shipping, exchange, possible duty, etc. Then, consider that you will have absolutely zero support... And, local trades people will nail you for any fix-up work on a unit they didn't sell. Plus, possible insurance issues if there are ever problems. It wasn't worth the risk.
Aside from the gas fitting (which you obviously need a licensed person to do), I see this as a handyman job. 3/4 water line in and out, bore out the vent, and plug it in. It's not rocket science, and that's no offense to the credible professionals that are charging a fair price. In Alberta, we're getting shafted. $1500 labor for a half day job is robbery. For a standard install, I think that around $500 would be reasonable, and that would include removal of the old tank.
That's just my opinion though. I might be more adventurous than most in taking on things like this.

[agiga]

$1688 with the stainless steel concentric vent kit.
I looked on fleabay, and all that stuff. The Rinnai prices are tempting. But, start adding up the costs of shipping, exchange, possible duty, etc. Then, consider that you will have absolutely zero support... And, local trades people will nail you for any fix-up work on a unit they didn't sell. Plus, possible insurance issues if there are ever problems. It wasn't worth the risk.
Aside from the gas fitting (which you obviously need a licensed person to do), I see this as a handyman job. 3/4 water line in and out, bore out the vent, and plug it in. It's not rocket science, and that's no offense to the credible professionals that are charging a fair price. In Alberta, we're getting shafted. $1500 labor for a half day job is robbery. For a standard install, I think that around $500 would be reasonable, and that would include removal of the old tank.
That's just my opinion though. I might be more adventurous than most in taking on things like this.

So how much did you pay to install this unit?

[dns1]

wanted to share what comes out of a hotwater tank, i drained a typical 15+yr natural draft natural gas hotwater tank.


here is the water from mid point draining.

http://www.naturalchoiceonline.ca/gallery/images/portfolios/water_from_a_htowater_tank.jpg



here is the inside, i later cut into it and wanted to share what it looks like inside

http://www.naturalchoiceonline.ca/gallery/images/portfolios/inside_a_hotwater_tank_2.jpg


A few years ago when Enbridge was Consumer's Gas on rental gas water heaters they offered ( but not unless you called - it wasn't a published offer !) a tank servicing free every 2 or 3 years.

They sent out a contractor who cleaned the tank and pumped a brine solution through it a few times and replaced whatever was wearing out.

I guess Consumers (Enbridge) stopped that service because it was too costly for them.

I guess I am old school because I think to pay $3000+ for a water heater or $32+ dollars a month in rental is just nuts.

With a little maintenance I hope my Rheem conventional will last 8 - 10 years and then I will just get another one the same.

I drain the bottom of the tank monthly (6 litres) and will replace the anode rod at the 3 year mark ( which is this summer).

I wonder have the new tankless ones been around long enough to even have a lifespan guess yet ?

How long will a tankless really last and how costly is servicing one ?

Anyone care to post a parts price list ?

[Inno]

A few years ago when Enbridge was Consumer's Gas on rental gas water heaters they offered ( but not unless you called - it wasn't a published offer !) a tank servicing free every 2 or 3 years.

They sent out a contractor who cleaned the tank and pumped a brine solution through it a few times and replaced whatever was wearing out.

I guess Consumers (Enbridge) stopped that service because it was too costly for them.

I guess I am old school because I think to pay $3000+ for a water heater or $32+ dollars a month in rental is just nuts.

With a little maintenance I hope my Rheem conventional will last 8 - 10 years and then I will just get another one the same.

I drain the bottom of the tank monthly (6 litres) and will replace the anode rod at the 3 year mark ( which is this summer).

I wonder have the new tankless ones been around long enough to even have a lifespan guess yet ?

How long will a tankless really last and how costly is servicing one ?

Anyone care to post a parts price list ?

I think they stopped regular servicing because it is just cheaper to wait til they fail. My last (Enbridge rental) 40 gal. heater lasted about 20 years with zero maintenance. Then they came in and replaced it with a monster 60 gal. unit that is way beyond our needs.

Looking at going tankless here too, but not interested paying ridiculous prices. We currently have a mini tankless at the cottage to supply one shower and one kitchen tap. No wash machine and no dishwasher. Works fine for one hot tap on at a time. This is a 40amp electric unit that is the size of a small shoebox. Easy to self-install and cost about $200. They are designed for single-point-of-use installation but we set it up to feed both taps.

[khanman]

i just recently got the rinnai R75 tankless system intalled. thanks to this thread and everyone here with their great feedback. actually the timing couldn't have been more perfect. last month my basement was flooded from massive rains we had 2nd weekend of Feb. after going thru insurance company assessement, they said my current hot water tank will have to be replaced. even though it was still working perfectly, the HVAC guy they sent to evaluate the damage recommended it replaced. so they assessed the replacement cost of my hot water tank at around $2500, which i thought was absolutely ridiculous.

so i took this opportunity to replace it with a tankless. i figured if i get a system installed on my own for around the same price, i could forego having to replace the current hot water tank (which i owned, not a rental) and go with a tankless. i decided to opt out of having the insurance company guys install the system and do it on my own, in which case they just send you the cheque for the damaged content. the insurance company folks quoted me $4000 for the tankless. so i called around a few place and found a great reputable company, 5 star rated. they came in and did the install in one day (6 hrs). very professional and they even cleaned up after. very clean and professional installation. CoreTemp is the name of the company (www.coretemp.ca). the gentleman's name is Richard. he called me immeditely after i left a msg. really knowledageble and friendly. he explained the system to me before and after installation. he also said he swears by the rinnai and he only exclusively installs these units. i figured after my insurance money which is $2500 and the $800 rebate ($300 enbridge gas rebate+$500 fed/prov rebate) i came out ahead. not only that, richard told me instead of them taking away the hot water tank, i could sell it on ebay or craigslist and make a few more bucks. he said if couldn't sell it, he'd gladly come back and pick it up anytime.

call richard at coretemp if anyone is interested in the rinnai R75 tankless.

[kasm]

i figured after my insurance money which is $2500 and the $800 rebate ($300 enbridge gas rebate+$500 fed/prov rebate) i came out ahead.

Did you need to go through the energy audit to get any of the rebates?

[breakfasteatre]

You have to get the energy audit done before and after to get the 500 prov/fed rebate. He might have failed to mention that he got one, if he didnt ,hes not getting the rebates

[khanman]

You have to get the energy audit done before and after to get the 500 prov/fed rebate. He might have failed to mention that he got one, if he didnt ,hes not getting the rebates

yes, i did have an audit done last year. i'll get the post audit done sometime this year after some more renos, so to answer your question, yes you do need to have a pre-audit done before you're eligible for the rebate.

[Torque]

So how much did you pay to install this unit?

I don't even have it yet.
Gas work will be around $200. My labor is priceless. :cheesygri

[NCHC James]

A few years ago when Enbridge was Consumer's Gas on rental gas water heaters they offered ( but not unless you called - it wasn't a published offer !) a tank servicing free every 2 or 3 years.

They sent out a contractor who cleaned the tank and pumped a brine solution through it a few times and replaced whatever was wearing out.

I guess Consumers (Enbridge) stopped that service because it was too costly for them.

I guess I am old school because I think to pay $3000+ for a water heater or $32+ dollars a month in rental is just nuts.

With a little maintenance I hope my Rheem conventional will last 8 - 10 years and then I will just get another one the same.

I drain the bottom of the tank monthly (6 litres) and will replace the anode rod at the 3 year mark ( which is this summer).

I wonder have the new tankless ones been around long enough to even have a lifespan guess yet ?

How long will a tankless really last and how costly is servicing one ?

Anyone care to post a parts price list ?

All the things consumers did was changed when it became two different companies, Enbridge and Direct Energy was born

if you really kept on top of the service for your hotwater tank it would not look like this one, infact would be in decent shape. however can not say it will save money on heating unused water.

the life span of tankless is said to be 20yrs, and has been around in some countries from 40 to 60 yrs

[DeannaP]

Me and my girlfriend, 1300sqft home, one bathroom, possibly 1 dishwasher in the future but currently handwashing.

Im assuming the less you use your hot water, the bigger the benefit of going tankless? Does this make sense?

Yes, the less hot water you use, the more money you will save. When you're not using hot water, you're not using gas. A Rinnai R75 would be sufficient for you.

[DeannaP]

All the things consumers did was changed when it became two different companies, Enbridge and Direct Energy was born

if you really kept on top of the service for your hotwater tank it would not look like this one, infact would be in decent shape. however can not say it will save money on heating unused water.

the life span of tankless is said to be 20yrs, and has been around in some countries from 40 to 60 yrs

Yes, I know that for a fact because I've spoken with quite a few gentlemen at home shows who brought their units from Europe and have had them running for 50+ years only having to replace a few parts on them.

[DeannaP]

Tanklesses are great for seniors where there are only 1-2 people living in the home. Seniors are typically much more frugal with their utilities and stand to save more on energy costs with tanklesses for that very reason. The less water you use, the more you save.

I highly recommend tanklesses for seniors. They're much safer because there is no running pilot, which is particularly important since most seniors have a decreased sense of smell and are less likely to notice a gas leak. Plus they don't have to worry about the tank leaking or bottoming out and flooding the basement. And the temperature can be adjusted to prevent the risk of scalding.

There was actually a situation where a tankless saved an elderly woman's life. She had collapsed in the shower and wasn't discovered until days later - with the shower still running. If she had a tank she would have perished from hypothermia, because it would have run out of hot water within 40 minutes or so.

Tanklesses are also great for young families or those running home daycares. You can lower the temperature to an appropriate handwashing temperature during the day, then raise it back up as desired. Prevents risk of scalding for toddlers.

Once you go tankless you'll become more conscious of your hot water use and will be more apt to use cold more often.

I don't have much sympathy for people who complain about the slight difference they might experience in delivery. We're huge energy hogs here in North America and it's time we had a bit more respect for the planet over waiting a few more seconds to get an endless supply of hot water.

[kohnan]

Does anyone in Ottawa want to go together to get a group discount? We can save $300 if we get 10 purchasers together. PM me if you are interested.

Thanks!

[jgmaull]

Looking at going tankless here too, but not interested paying ridiculous prices. We currently have a mini tankless at the cottage to supply one shower and one kitchen tap. No wash machine and no dishwasher. Works fine for one hot tap on at a time. This is a 40amp electric unit that is the size of a small shoebox. Easy to self-install and cost about $200. They are designed for single-point-of-use installation but we set it up to feed both taps.

What one did you get and where did you get it from? We were thinking of doing this for our cottage. Was it easy to install? Are you happy with how well it works?

Any info would be appreciated either in this thread or by PM.

[Inno]

What one did you get and where did you get it from? We were thinking of doing this for our cottage. Was it easy to install? Are you happy with how well it works?

Any info would be appreciated either in this thread or by PM.

Hi, I forget the brand but I bought it from a wholesale plumbing place in central Toronto called Goldtrade. It was easy to install, just one 1/2" copper pipe in and one out. We put it where the old HWT was and reclaimed a huge amount of space. My old tank only had a 30amp wire coming to that spot so I had to bring in a heavier electric wire from the breaker box to deliver the 40 amps required.

It works quite well but, since we are on a jetpump with quite variable pressure, it is not like city hot water, i.e. the pressure and temp varies quite a bit. Also, since the water temp in the lake that it uses is cold in the spring and fall, the hot water is not really hot in those seasons, but in summer the temp is fine. One other thing: there is a reset button that trips once in a while. I think this happens when the pump pressure drops too low.

So in summary, it is not perfect but we are glad we have reclaimed some valuable space and I'm sure we are saving quite a bit in electicity especially since we only use the place on weekends.

[bogey]

I'm not too sure if this is the correct estimate but:

The energy required to keep a water tank (surface area ~16 ft2), 80F above ambient temperature, with tank insulation of R-8 is:

(16*80)/8=160 BTU/h (here is where wrappping the water heater to say R-20 is suppose to save money)

So 160*24=3,840 BTU/day

Natural gas contains ~30,000 BTU/m3, and every m3 of gas cost ~$0.30

So it cost you ~$0.04/day to keep the water tank hot.
(or ~$15 over one year).

The savings appears minimal.

Tankless is a superior product, but it might not be cost effective to switch.

[barto]

i just recently got the rinnai R75 tankless system intalled.

call richard at coretemp if anyone is interested in the rinnai R75 tankless.

Where are you (and Richard) located?

Bart

[barto]

And the temperature can be adjusted to prevent the risk of scalding.

Of course, you can also adjust the temp. on a 'normal' HWT, too...


You can lower the temperature to an appropriate handwashing temperature during the day, then raise it back up as desired. Prevents risk of scalding for toddlers.


How easy is it to adjust the temperature? I've often thought that it would be a good money-saver if you could put a programmable thermostat on the HWT, so, say, at 11:00 PM the temp on the HWT would be lowered, then, say, at 6:00 AM it would raise it to your desired temp (and lower it again while you're out working or something). Haven't seen anything like that for a gas-powered HWT, and it's a nuisance to be going into the basement for every adjustment. Still, would be worth it on a regular HWT if you were going away for a week or two... and completely unnecessary on a tankless! :D

Bart

[NCHC James]

Of course, you can also adjust the temp. on a 'normal' HWT, too...



How easy is it to adjust the temperature? I've often thought that it would be a good money-saver if you could put a programmable thermostat on the HWT, so, say, at 11:00 PM the temp on the HWT would be lowered, then, say, at 6:00 AM it would raise it to your desired temp (and lower it again while you're out working or something). Haven't seen anything like that for a gas-powered HWT, and it's a nuisance to be going into the basement for every adjustment. Still, would be worth it on a regular HWT if you were going away for a week or two... and completely unnecessary on a tankless! :D

Bart


a hotwater tank should not have the temperature adjusted, before it was thought 120 would keep the bateria down was what was needed, however they have changed that to set temp of 140, mixing valve to get you 120 to your tap

than for you to turn cold with hot as it's too hot, for a bit, then you adjust the temp again to more hot and adjust again in a bit.

tankless, set temp to say 110 and shower in hot only. and it gives unlimited water supply of 110.

to adjust a tankless, easy, there is a digital pad to which you can get wired or wireless remotes to place throughout your home if you wish.

[barto]

a hotwater tank should not have the temperature adjusted, before it was thought 120 would keep the bateria down was what was needed, however they have changed that to set temp of 140, mixing valve to get you 120 to your tap


Ah, hadn't thought of the bacteria thing. Oops!


than for you to turn cold with hot as it's too hot, for a bit, then you adjust the temp again to more hot and adjust again in a bit.

tankless, set temp to say 110 and shower in hot only. and it gives unlimited water supply of 110.

to adjust a tankless, easy, there is a digital pad to which you can get wired or wireless remotes to place throughout your home if you wish.

SWEET! That's very nice. Yet another benefit of tankless! :D

Bart

[Temujin1]

how is it that nchc james and deannap both joined within the last two weeks and have only posted in this forum?

I don't want to sound like a jerk here but one should always question the source, although in all fairness both are open with the fact that they are in the business of selling you a tankless water heater.

there are many unsubstantiated claims being made here such as saving you money when the math indicates otherwise, improved health claims, scary pictures of the things that live in your water tank, even savings the lives of people slipping and falling in the shower for crying out loud.

The best one is by deannap who says they've talked to people at home shows who brought over their tankless water heaters from europe and have had them running for 50 years. seriously, a 70 year old dude comes from europe and the one thing he makes sure to bring is his tankless water heater? i'd love to meet his guy :cheesygri

[Inno]

how is it that nchc james and deannap both joined within the last two weeks and have only posted in this forum?

I don't want to sound like a jerk here but one should always question the source, although in all fairness both are open with the fact that they are in the business of selling you a tankless water heater.

there are many unsubstantiated claims being made here such as saving you money when the math indicates otherwise, improved health claims, scary pictures of the things that live in your water tank, even savings the lives of people slipping and falling in the shower for crying out loud.

The best one is by deannap who says they've talked to people at home shows who brought over their tankless water heaters from europe and have had them running for 50 years. seriously, a 70 year old dude comes from europe and the one thing he makes sure to bring is his tankless water heater? i'd love to meet his guy :cheesygri

Hmmn, I don't recall ever seeing tankless heaters being sold in Canada back then - and I am old enough to remember 50 years back!

Of course when I visited family in Europe back then, the little tankless point-of-use units were the only kind they had. One in the shower and one at the kitchen sink.

[NCHC James]

How is it that I came to the site, is simple. the gentleman that created this topic was kind enough to share the site and link to this topic to which he mentioned how he felt about our services. As you read back, u will not see me boasting services, or selling.

i have offered tech answers without asking anything or wanting anything. just like the trade i am in, and don't mind sharing information.

I'm guessing you would rather guess about things out there than to get free answers from professionals??


how is it that nchc james and deannap both joined within the last two weeks and have only posted in this forum?

I don't want to sound like a jerk here but one should always question the source, although in all fairness both are open with the fact that they are in the business of selling you a tankless water heater.

there are many unsubstantiated claims being made here such as saving you money when the math indicates otherwise, improved health claims, scary pictures of the things that live in your water tank, even savings the lives of people slipping and falling in the shower for crying out loud.

The best one is by deannap who says they've talked to people at home shows who brought over their tankless water heaters from europe and have had them running for 50 years. seriously, a 70 year old dude comes from europe and the one thing he makes sure to bring is his tankless water heater? i'd love to meet his guy :cheesygri

[NCHC James]

How is it that I came to the site, is simple. the gentleman that created this topic was kind enough to share the site and link to this topic to which he mentioned how he felt about our services. As you read back, u will not see me boasting services, or selling.

i have offered tech answers without asking anything or wanting anything. just like the trade i am in, and don't mind sharing information.

I'm guessing you would rather guess about things out there than to get free answers from professionals??


i never knew about this site before, and although i don't post in all sections i have found this site very interesting and ended up finding a great deal on a new laptop because of a deal someone else found on a laptop from staple's. searching through that list i found one that worked for me, so, i was glad someone else shared their information. nothing different than what i was offering.

[Temujin1]

How is it that I came to the site, is simple. the gentleman that created this topic was kind enough to share the site and link to this topic to which he mentioned how he felt about our services. As you read back, u will not see me boasting services, or selling.

i have offered tech answers without asking anything or wanting anything. just like the trade i am in, and don't mind sharing information.

I'm guessing you would rather guess about things out there than to get free answers from professionals??

I agree that your posts have been helpful. Also, I agree that you're a professional, meaning that you are paid to install tankless water heaters. 'nuff said.

[NCHC James]

I agree that your posts have been helpful. Also, I agree that you're a professional, meaning that you are paid to install tankless water heaters. 'nuff said.

Nuff said?? Professional yes, paid to be on here nope.. this is offered in my spare time.

actually we offer much more than just tankless, just happen to personally been installing them since 2003 allowing me to have a lot of experince with them.

always good to slap a helping hand!!

[paulo500]

Finally these tankless systems are gaining 'steam' here in north America. I have lots of relatives in the UK and these things have been around for decades.

The last time i looked into a tankless for our small 1100sq/ft townhome, there wasn't many options for our common 100amp power box. We would have had to get a 200amp in to supply sufficient hot water (electric tankless).

I hope this enbridge deal sticks around for awhile. I might look into this around the summer time.
Are there charts around that accurately compares costs with tanks and tankless systems?
Currently we rent a vented hot water tank from enbridge at $20 per month...I loath paying that.:mad:

[spidermoore]

makes 1.3k for tankless look great...BUT....I have 3 apartments..2 x 1 bedroom + 1 x 2 bedroom = possibly 3 showers running at once in a 100 year old house with great water pressure...


You and others on this thread should consider something like this.

http://www.theresourcestore.ca/Heat%20Recovery.php

It basically uses the waste water going down the drain of your shower to preheat the water that is coming into your building from the mains. If you take a 120Deg shower the waste water is probably still over 100D leaving your building through the drain. The water entering you building from the mains could be 50Deg. You can recover a good amount of that heat. By pre-heating the 50deg inlet water to 80 or 90, they say it feels like you are doubling the heat capacity of your water heater but without using any more energy.

It will also work with a tankless since the tankless would have to work less to heat each gallon of water.

[sonspot]

this is awesome, we need a tankless water heater as our water gets cold often, and have two families in our house.

if your water is getting cold, it may need a new dip tube,.. tankless is great for space saving small family or families that dont use a lot of hot water. these unit can go up to 200000 btu, your 60gl tank is 42000 btu. i could go on, know what your needs are before spending more money than you need to..

[sonspot]

a hotwater tank should not have the temperature adjusted, before it was thought 120 would keep the bateria down was what was needed, however they have changed that to set temp of 140, mixing valve to get you 120 to your tap

than for you to turn cold with hot as it's too hot, for a bit, then you adjust the temp again to more hot and adjust again in a bit.

tankless, set temp to say 110 and shower in hot only. and it gives unlimited water supply of 110.

to adjust a tankless, easy, there is a digital pad to which you can get wired or wireless remotes to place throughout your home if you wish.

your right about adjusting the temp on a hwt, the tank should be at 140 to kill bacteria with a mixing valve to reduce the temp to 120 so you dont burn yourself, the other reason is you dont want stacking, this will cause your TP valve to reless, which sometimes lead to flooding your basement

[aw124]

HD hammer Drop for today (Mar 29)

Bosch AquaStar Tankless Water Heater 125FX NG

http://www.homedepot.ca/wcsstore/HomeDepotCanada/images/catalog/047b2521-fdd6-4cfb-8caa-819f2ebaf297_4.jpg

http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/HammerDropView?storeId=10051&catalogId=10051&langId=-15

Reg price $1,117.00
Hammer Drop Price $799.00


Endless Hot Water
Delivers up to 3.5 gallons per minute (one major application at a time)
Electronic ignition
Can save up to 50% off utility cost
Compact, light weight, and mounts on the wall
Assembled Depth (In Inches): 8.75 In.
Assembled Weight (In LBS): 52 Lbs. Assembled Width (In Inches): 18.25 In.
Assembled Height (In Inches): 29.75 In.

Never run out of hot water again! What this tankless water heater lacks in size it more than makes up for with power by heating up to 3.5 gallons of water per minute. It also features a built-in power vent, electronic ignition and has no standing pilot. Ideal for residential installation that requires horizontal venting. Natural gas-design.

WARRANTY: 12-year warranty on heat exchanger, 2-year on parts

[djv]

HD hammer Drop for today (Mar 29)

Bosch AquaStar Tankless Water Heater 125FX NG

http://www.homedepot.ca/wcsstore/HomeDepotCanada/images/catalog/047b2521-fdd6-4cfb-8caa-819f2ebaf297_4.jpg

http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/HammerDropView?storeId=10051&catalogId=10051&langId=-15

Reg price $1,117.00
Hammer Drop Price $799.00


Endless Hot Water
Delivers up to 3.5 gallons per minute (one major application at a time)
Electronic ignition
Can save up to 50% off utility cost
Compact, light weight, and mounts on the wall
Assembled Depth (In Inches): 8.75 In.
Assembled Weight (In LBS): 52 Lbs. Assembled Width (In Inches): 18.25 In.
Assembled Height (In Inches): 29.75 In.

Never run out of hot water again! What this tankless water heater lacks in size it more than makes up for with power by heating up to 3.5 gallons of water per minute. It also features a built-in power vent, electronic ignition and has no standing pilot. Ideal for residential installation that requires horizontal venting. Natural gas-design.

WARRANTY: 12-year warranty on heat exchanger, 2-year on parts

If this qualified for the rebate I'd pick one up.

[sonspot]

If this qualified for the rebate I'd pick one up.

why would you buy it?

[Inno]

If this qualified for the rebate I'd pick one up.

Are you suggesting that it does not?

Edit: Oh, I see. It is not on the qualifying list, though other Bosch models are. I guess HD has to drop the hammer on these cuz no one will buy them now without the rebate.

[sonspot]

Are you suggesting that it does not?

Edit: Oh, I see. It is not on the qualifying list, though other Bosch models are. I guess HD has to drop the hammer on these cuz no one will buy them now without the rebate.

reason some are on the list is energy rating, i searched and that model was not rate, its 28000 btu to 130000, and rated for one apl at a time,. think about your needs before wasting money, then bad mouth a product because it does not work like you want..

[NCHC James]

reason some are on the list is energy rating, i searched and that model was not rate, its 28000 btu to 130000, and rated for one apl at a time,. think about your needs before wasting money, then bad mouth a product because it does not work like you want..

Great point !

so many grab the cheapest system on the market expecting the most.. then wonder why it won't do what they expected and give tankless a bad name.

going with a better manufacture that can produce results and comfort at the same time, you'll be pleased and wonder why you never did this change over sooner..

[VLeung]

Since there is one RFDer PM me about the detail setup of my Navien TWH, may be I should post some pics here to give some idea to ppl who are also interested :

Pic #1. Front view - Since I originally had a COMBO unit, part of the copper pipes are to feed the overhanging Heat Exchange Condensor / Blower unit.
(You can see that there is an external circulation pump. )
If you don't have a COMOB system, the copper piping should be much more simpler, i.e. just one cold water pipe IN and one hot water pipe OUT and the natural gas IN.
At the top right hand coner, you can see two thicker copper pipes binded to each other. They are actually the IN and OUT copper pipes to/from a Water Softener.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1861/pic01d.jpg

Pic #2. Front view - This model #CR-240A actually has a small internal water tank of 2 Liters.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5154/pic02kyp.jpg

Pic #3. Front view - A closer look at the TWH piping connections.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/774/pic03e.jpg

Pic #4. Side view - Air Intake / Exhaust that goes to the roof.

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/200/pic04h.jpg

Pic #5. Side view - Piping Connection and Valves

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8773/pic05s.jpg

Pic #6. Front view - Another Zoom-in

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8994/pic06p.jpg


Athough it is a wall mount unit, the size is still pretty big.
You can get more detail specifications (may be user manual) from the manufacturer's web site.

Hope this helps.

[paulo500]

Good pics!
Gives me something to think about if/when i can do this in my home.

You do seem to have alot of pipes all around the place. (Kinda like that Windows screen saver):razz:. Is this a typical setup or can the pipes be spaced further apart? Im just thinking if the tank had to be removed (to be fixed, replaced,etc...knowing my luck), the pipes look like they are in the way and would have to be cut.

Im curious about cost of your setup. Id be grateful with details about that if you can. pm?

[VLeung]

Good pics!
Gives me something to think about if/when i can do this in my home.

You do seem to have alot of pipes all around the place. (Kinda like that Windows screen saver):razz:. Is this a typical setup or can the pipes be spaced further apart? Im just thinking if the tank had to be removed (to be fixed, replaced,etc...knowing my luck), the pipes look like they are in the way and would have to be cut.

Im curious about cost of your setup. Id be grateful with details about that if you can. pm?

Just imagine that the original water tank (big cylinder) is in front of the TWH on the floor. The pipes that go straight down will now be cut and moved towards the walls in order to make empty space, say, to put a dryer against the wall.

As I have mentioned on the first pic, it seemed a little bit messy because I had a COMBO system which required additional piping to feed the overhanging Heat Exchange / Condensor Blower Unit and the circulation pump.
( My contractor also replaced the original plastic piping with copper pipes at no charge. )

This is one of the key reason which I rented this TWH (@$40/mon. for 2 yrs) from my contractor that I don't need to pay any installation charges up front. ( I did mention this at an earlier post. )
If I buy the TWH, installation alone will probably cost me between $800 to $1,000.

;)

[rossiman]

By combo system, do you mean you retained your water heater? If so, what was the reason for it? And do you have an option to purchase?

[rossiman]

And let me get these rebates straight:

- $300 from Enbridge
- $250 from Government of Canada
- $500 from Government of Ontario (after paying for an energy audit of which, $150 is also rebated).

That's $1,050. Not too shabby.

[NCHC James]

Good pics!
Gives me something to think about if/when i can do this in my home.

You do seem to have alot of pipes all around the place. (Kinda like that Windows screen saver):razz:. Is this a typical setup or can the pipes be spaced further apart? Im just thinking if the tank had to be removed (to be fixed, replaced,etc...knowing my luck), the pipes look like they are in the way and would have to be cut.

Im curious about cost of your setup. Id be grateful with details about that if you can. pm?


you don't usually see so much plumbing, as he mentioned his unit is used for heating and domestic (hotwater).

this is more of a typical look of a Rinnai (not as physically as large as a navien)

http://www.naturalchoiceonline.ca/gallery/images/portfolios/img_0287.jpg

[sonspot]

Just imagine that the original water tank (big cylinder) is in front of the TWH on the floor. The pipes that go straight down will now be cut and moved towards the walls in order to make empty space, say, to put a dryer against the wall.

As I have mentioned on the first pic, it seemed a little bit messy because I had a COMBO system which required additional piping to feed the overhanging Heat Exchange / Condensor Blower Unit and the circulation pump.
( My contractor also replaced the original plastic piping with copper pipes at no charge. )

This is one of the key reason which I rented this TWH (@$40/mon. for 2 yrs) from my contractor that I don't need to pay any installation charges up front. ( I did mention this at an earlier post. )
If I buy the TWH, installation alone will probably cost me between $800 to $1,000.

;)

why didnt you get a state or polaris high output tank both have good energy rating and cost half to rent, if the tankless is heating your house am not sure i want to see your gas bill :lol:

[Ride-On]

Thanks for posting pics VLeung and James - nice to see.

VLeung -- just a thought, but wouldn't you want that electrical plug below your heater to be a GFI protected circuit? Just in case...

[paulo500]

Do any of you guys have a comparison of what you were paying in hydro/gas/water before and after the Tankless install?
Have you noticed a positive savings in utilities?

Good pictures guys!

And let me get these rebates straight:

- $300 from Enbridge
- $250 from Government of Canada
- $500 from Government of Ontario (after paying for an energy audit of which, $150 is also rebated).

That's $1,050. Not too shabby.
I like the way you laid it all out Rossiman! Are there any expiry dates on those rebates? This is encouraging indeed.:lol:

[VLeung]

By combo system, do you mean you retained your water heater? If so, what was the reason for it? And do you have an option to purchase?

A COMBO System means the water heater serves 2 purposes :
1) Your home heating.
2) Your Hot water supply.

Regular houses may have separate systems / machines for each.

Now, replaced with the TWH, my original Water Heater (big cylinder, also on Rental contract with Enbridge) was returned to Enbridge and I regain some space in the machine room.

I have no plans to buy-out the TWH unit in the future, probably not until the general cost of maintenance of a TWH can become more reasonable and accessible.

[sonspot]

A COMBO System means the water heater serves 2 purposes :
1) Your home heating.
2) Your Hot water supply.

Regular houses may have separate systems / machines for each.

Now, replaced with the TWH, my original Water Heater (big cylinder, also on Rental contract with Enbridge) was returned to Enbridge and I regain some space in the machine room.

I have no plans to buy-out the TWH unit in the future, probably not until the general cost of maintenance of a TWH can become more reasonable and accessible.

like the other member asked, whats your bill like (before and after).. i install these thats why am asking,..

its funny you mention space saving in the utility room, i've notice that whenever customers save space they just fill it back up with other crap, i swear i call ahead let them know am on my way and it never fails crap in the way/path on the nice tiled utility floor (why would someone waste money on tile in the UR)..

[brucered]

...(why would someone waste money on tile in the UR)..

we just have the concrete and a slab of extra vinyl that was left over from the kitchen. we didn't even glue it down, the door is always shut anyways, no one but family sees it.

[NCHC James]

Thanks for posting pics VLeung and James - nice to see.

VLeung -- just a thought, but wouldn't you want that electrical plug below your heater to be a GFI protected circuit? Just in case...

we have quite a few pictures of them installed in the gallery section of our website..

and ton's more i could email ppl if they wanted to see.

[khanman]

Where are you (and Richard) located?

Bart

i'm in the GTA area (mississauga). he services all of GTA. give him a call, extremely professional, knowledgable and nice guy. his guys even cleaned up the area very nicely when they were done. i wasn't expecting that, but the area was spic and span after they left.

[applejuice]

And let me get these rebates straight:

- $300 from Enbridge
- $250 from Government of Canada
- $500 from Government of Ontario (after paying for an energy audit of which, $150 is also rebated).

That's $1,050. Not too shabby.



I'm aware of the $300 Enbrige and $500 Ontario e-audit.....but what / how / links? to this $250 from the federal?

[breakfasteatre]

its 250 each from provincial and federal, for 500 combined. Not 500 from provincial and 250 federal

[kasm]

I believe the Ontario Gov will also pay for half the energy Audit. (up to $150).

So I believe these are the steps:

1) Book an energy Audit (Ont Gov will pay for $150)

2) Get an installer to install a tankless Water heater

3) Get second part of the audit done (within 18 months)

4) Submit $250 rebate to Ont Gov

5) Submit $250 rebate to Fed Gov

6) Submit $300 rebate to Enbridge. (Offer Expires Aug 09)


total costs
- Energy Audit = $300-$350
- Tankless install = $2500 - $3000
- sub total = $2800 - $3350

Rebates
- $150 - $250 - $250 - $300 = $950

Grand Total costs
- $1850 - $2400


Anything I'm missing?

[Inno]

I believe the Ontario Gov will also pay for half the energy Audit. (up to $150).

So I believe these are the steps:

1) Book an energy Audit (Ont Gov will pay for $150)

2) Get an installer to install a tankless Water heater

3) Get second part of the audit done (within 18 months)

4) Submit $250 rebate to Ont Gov

5) Submit $250 rebate to Fed Gov

6) Submit $300 rebate to Enbridge. (Offer Expires Aug 09)


total costs
- Energy Audit = $300-$350
- Tankless install = $2500 - $3000
- sub total = $2800 - $3350

Rebates
- $150 - $250 - $250 - $300 = $950

Grand Total costs
- $1850 - $2400


Anything I'm missing?

I had an energy audit done about 3 years ago via the GreenSaver program. Is that still valid for this?

[symbian]

Update:

- Energy Audit = $325 (1st visit)
- Energy Audit = $125 (2nd visit)

After gov rebate -$150, total Energy Audit is about $300.

[VLeung]

like the other member asked, whats your bill like (before and after).. i install these thats why am asking,..

its funny you mention space saving in the utility room, i've notice that whenever customers save space they just fill it back up with other crap, i swear i call ahead let them know am on my way and it never fails crap in the way/path on the nice tiled utility floor (why would someone waste money on tile in the UR)..

Since I only have my TWH installed for 2 weeks, it will take the next couple of months' gas bills to really compare and see if there's actually significant savings.
But because of the equal payment, I don't expect to have any actual changes in the monthly bill for at least the next couple of months.

My original plan is to move my washing machine dryer to the space where the old water heater was.
( But that will need extra work for electrical wiring and probably exhaust pipes connection. )

[NCHC James]

i agree .. Dealer search is something Rinnai offers where customers rate their experience with their system and Dealer.

expand to a 50 mile search, there you will see those listed with highest compliments from customers.

[Avatar]

Here is a good cost effectiveness comparison between tank and tankless heaters.
http://www.pmengineer.com/CDA/Archives/8cf9e86f7c298010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____
With the cost of water heaters over $2500 I doubt the saving is there. My $12/m tank rental fee is still half of what the average tankless rental fee per month.
Just install a water softener and will save the scale build up in the tank which is the main cause of the inefficiency over the year.

[joongpark]

Step 4,5 are wrong as Auditors will send in the rebate on your behalf so you do not have to fill out any forms.

I believe the Ontario Gov will also pay for half the energy Audit. (up to $150).

So I believe these are the steps:

1) Book an energy Audit (Ont Gov will pay for $150)

2) Get an installer to install a tankless Water heater

3) Get second part of the audit done (within 18 months)

4) Submit $250 rebate to Ont Gov

5) Submit $250 rebate to Fed Gov

6) Submit $300 rebate to Enbridge. (Offer Expires Aug 09)


total costs
- Energy Audit = $300-$350
- Tankless install = $2500 - $3000
- sub total = $2800 - $3350

Rebates
- $150 - $250 - $250 - $300 = $950

Grand Total costs
- $1850 - $2400


Anything I'm missing?

[rossiman]

I just had Direct Energy come by to spec out a tankless water heater. They quoted me an installation fee - $550. I was a bit surprised by this because I thought this was absorbed in the monthly rental fee. Has anyone paid or been quoted an installation fee on a rental heater?

[Inno]

I just had Direct Energy come by to spec out a tankless water heater. They quoted me an installation fee - $550. I was a bit surprised by this because I thought this was absorbed in the monthly rental fee. Has anyone paid or been quoted an installation fee on a rental heater?

I did not pay a fee for my tank install, and I think they had to upgrade the vent kit too.

[rossiman]

I did not pay a fee for my tank install, and I think they had to upgrade the vent kit too.

Are you in Ontario? Was it Direct Energy who installed it?

[t0pclass]

Which auditor to choose from the list (North York Area)?
Any recommed? (or they are all similar?)

[Inno]

Are you in Ontario? Was it Direct Energy who installed it?

Yes. I had a very old one that failed, so they replaced it. I do have their monthly maintenance plan for my furnace, so maybe that covered the labour on the HWT?

[dalman]

Yes. I had a very old one that failed, so they replaced it. I do have their monthly maintenance plan for my furnace, so maybe that covered the labour on the HWT?

just called Direct Energy. They will ask you to pay for the venting replacement, but not the tankless unit itself. It is around 500-600 for the venting. The rental price is 33.50 per month.

[Inno]

just called Direct Energy. They will ask you to pay for the venting replacement, but not the tankless unit itself. It is around 500-600 for the venting. The rental price is 33.50 per month.

Why is the rental so high? I think I am paying around $20 per month for my tank and others are paying less.

Is the venting different than the latest for a 60 gal. gas tank? My new tank has a power vent and plastic pipe. Is it proprietary to the tankless unit, even the pipe?

[dalman]

Why is the rental so high? I think I am paying around $20 per month for my tank and others are paying less.

Is the venting different than the latest for a 60 gal. gas tank? My new tank has a power vent and plastic pipe. Is it proprietary to the tankless unit, even the pipe?

Are you renting a tank or tankless? I am paying 20 for my tank too but I am quoting a tankless heater.

The pipe has to be changed because of changing of building code. If you have a powervent unit before 2003(or 2004), you will have to change the pipe even if you just replace the tank.

[ardo]

Is there a company that offers TWH rentals as an alternative to Direct Energy AND won't charge for installation?

I have a 10+ year-old tank that I'm renting from Direct Energy. I've been having problems for the past 3 years or so, the last one being the water pipe rusting through INSIDE the tank. I asked the repair guy if the old piece of pipe is gonna stay inside, he said Yes, but 'nothing to worry about'. I now have to flush the hot water while filling up a bathtub for a couple of minutes first, until all the rust stops coming out. What a pain!

I'm paying $20/mth, and I don't mind paying $33.50 for renting a TWH, but I'd like to avoid other costs since I won't be staying at this place for more than 2 years.

TIA.

[dalman]

Is there a company that offers TWH rentals as an alternative to Direct Energy AND won't charge for installation?

I have a 10+ year-old tank that I'm renting from Direct Energy. I've been having problems for the past 3 years or so, the last one being the water pipe rusting through INSIDE the tank. I asked the repair guy if the old piece of pipe is gonna stay inside, he said Yes, but 'nothing to worry about'. I now have to flush the hot water while filling up a bathtub for a couple of minutes first, until all the rust stops coming out. What a pain!

I'm paying $20/mth, and I don't mind paying $33.50 for renting a TWH, but I'd like to avoid other costs since I won't be staying at this place for more than 2 years.

TIA.

Actually there is a company came to my door yesterday and offered to replace my water tank for free with a new water tank. The rental fee is 24 per month. But installation and changing of pipe is free. The company is called National Home Services. I am inclined to switch to them if the tankless option is too expensive. I guess I can terminate their rental if I think tankless is a better option in next few years.

[rossiman]

Be careful with Sears and other companies offering rental deals. Their monthly rates might be comparable to Direct Energy but their buy-outs are onerous. That becomes a problem if you want to sell your house.

[dalman]

Be careful with Sears and other companies offering rental deals. Their monthly rates might be comparable to Direct Energy but their buy-outs are onerous. That becomes a problem if you want to sell your house.

You don't have to buy it out when you sell the house, right?

[rossiman]

You don't have to buy it out when you sell the house, right?

No but the buyer might not want to take over the rental. Then you or the new buyer would have to buy out the rental.

Direct Energy's buyouts are pretty reasonable.

[steinberg]

Can anyone confirm what the clearance requirement for the tankless water tank? My understanding was: 3' from gas pipe, 3' from any opening (door or window), 3' from any other venting. I have guy came to my home said that 3' to opening and venting is recommended, not have to, only 1' away is required. so, I am confused...
Anyone heard about or dealt with Mr. Tankless which is the Active Temperature Control Heating & Cooling Inc. I think? I was told renting is $25.95 and 15 years rent to own, with free service and yearly flush. If buy is $2600 with 10 yr part & labor. This is the best price I heard so far compare to other rental options.. But this company charge GST + PST for purchasing which others only charge GST.
Is rental also qualify for both the government rebate and Direct Energy rebate?

[NCHC James]

Can anyone confirm what the clearance requirement for the tankless water tank? My understanding was: 3' from gas pipe, 3' from any opening (door or window), 3' from any other venting. I have guy came to my home said that 3' to opening and venting is recommended, not have to, only 1' away is required. so, I am confused...
Anyone heard about or dealt with Mr. Tankless which is the Active Temperature Control Heating & Cooling Inc. I think? I was told renting is $25.95 and 15 years rent to own, with free service and yearly flush. If buy is $2600 with 10 yr part & labor. This is the best price I heard so far compare to other rental options.. But this company charge GST + PST for purchasing which others only charge GST.
Is rental also qualify for both the government rebate and Direct Energy rebate?


Appliances that are 100,000 and below are to be 12inches from any window, door or other appliance. appliances 100,001 and above must be 3ft from window/door/appliance. and 12 inches above grade on both.

everything is 3ft from the meter vent, not the meter but the vent away which can be extended by a lic tech.

GST and PST should not be charged for services at this time, next summer the rules are changing to which it will be one tax. at this point where they are two taxes they should not be charged with the services we, and those in the same industry provide.

[NCHC James]

rental does qualify for the eco energy program rebates and some rental companies offer the Enbridge gas credit. Not all companies qualify for the Enbridge rebate.

[steinberg]

Is Rinnai 75XSi is 75000 btu and it's under 100,000? How far it has to be away from high efficiency furnace venting and intake pipe?
Appliances that are 100,000 and below are to be 12inches from any window, door or other appliance. appliances 100,001 and above must be 3ft from window/door/appliance. and 12 inches above grade on both.

everything is 3ft from the meter vent, not the meter but the vent away which can be extended by a lic tech.

GST and PST should not be charged for services at this time, next summer the rules are changing to which it will be one tax. at this point where they are two taxes they should not be charged with the services we, and those in the same industry provide.

[NCHC James]

Is Rinnai 75XSi is 75000 btu and it's under 100,000? How far it has to be away from high efficiency furnace venting and intake pipe?



it is measured on the max, Rinnai R75LSi max btuh is 180,000.

[steinberg]

Almost none tankless water tank is under 100,000 btu. So the clearance need to be 3' at all? is it "must be" or "recommend" per coding?
it is measured on the max, Rinnai R75LSi max btuh is 180,000.

[NCHC James]

Almost none tankless water tank is under 100,000 btu. So the clearance need to be 3' at all? is it "must be" or "recommend" per coding?

none that i'm aware of are below, expect all to be over (or they won't perform as one would want)

it is a 'must', TSSA isn't into bending rules

[steinberg]

Thanks so much! It looks like hard to get these clearance satisfied at my house...
none that i'm aware of are below, expect all to be over (or they won't perform as one would want)

it is a 'must', TSSA isn't into bending rules

[NCHC James]

i put this in another post, but noticed a lot of question on this topic where it might be useful

I thought i would share some information that Rinnai gives us.. Might help answer some questions at the same time.


Rinnai

Rinnai Corporation, established in 1920, is the largest gas appliance manufacturer in the world. The company built its reputation based upon its achievements in technological innovation, manufacturing efficiency, quality and safety. Rinnai’s North American operation, located in Peachtree City, Georgia, has been responsible for marketing and distributing Rinnai in North America since 1975.

Introducing the Rinnai Tankless Water Heater

Rinnai has taken technology that is decades old and perfected it with a unit designed to manage the hot water needs of an entire household. Teaming up with various suppliers to offer affordable and economical rental programs, Rinnai offers the following benefits:

Never Run Out Of Hot Water!
��You will never take another cold shower! With Rinnai Continuum’s patented technology, this state-of-the-art system delivers an endless supply of hot water 24 hours a day.

��The Rinnai whole-home water heater provides over 4 gallons a minute at a 70-degree rise, or a whopping 240 gallons an hour with no recovery time!

Energy Cost Savings!

��Water tanks constantly spend energy to needlessly heat and reheat gallons of water, even at 2AM. With the Rinnai Continuum, energy is used more efficiently because it only heats water when there is a demand.

��The average consumer will save between 30% and 40% of their gas bill associated with water heating.

Safety!

��You set the temperature – no more scalding! New codes also require a mixing valve device on all water heaters. This device is built right into your Rinnai unit!

��No more water leaks in your basement! Because the Rinnai is tankless, there is no risk of spillage.

��CSA Certified with low NOx emissions. 22% lower Green House Gas emissions than a tank, and over 80% lower NoX emissions.
Convenience!

��The tankless design provides more floor space in your home! Rinnai is wall mounted and frees up that room for other uses.

��Direct concentric venting seals the unit and allows it to run at a whisper quiet 49 dB’s – that’s less than your refrigerator!

��Rinnai Continuum can only be installed by certified Rinnai installers to insure the job is done properly. As a responsible supplier to consumers, every prospective installer must go through an installation training class before Rinnai approves them.

��Multiple uses including radiant floor heating, hydronic air handlers, all while providing hot water for domestic needs.

What Else Do You Need To Know?

��On-Off-On operation with a hot water tap will create a “cold water sandwich” - a 5 second shot of cold water in the middle of the hot water. To avoid this, leave taps running when you are using hot water. Please also note that hot water in a line must be evacuated first, followed by the sandwich, before you get your continuous hot water.

��A dribble of water may not turn the unit on. Rinnai needs 0.6 GPM to start, so when you want hot water, open the tap enough to start your Rinnai.

��Every Rinnai Continuum is installed with a digital control pad. This controller is there so you can set specific temperatures if so desired. Most homeowners’ leave it set to 120 degrees and forget about it. It is also there to help technicians trouble shoot any possible problems.

��If there is a power outage, Rinnai will reset itself to 104 or 108 degrees. To get hotter water, set the controller to read 120 degrees when the unit is not running.

��Just like your old tank, hot water from the Rinnai has to get from wherever it is located in the home to your fixture, evacuating any cold water in the line before it gets to you. Rinnai also needs time to start – about 5 seconds. Therefore, it will take a bit longer to get hot water to your fixture, but once it is there, it is there forever!

��Balancing valves in new plumbing fixtures (any single lever handle) can sometimes create headaches for a tankless unit. To use your Rinnai properly, always turn these single handles to maximum hot setting. Once your hot water is present, slowly come towards the cold section to get your useable temperature.

[anml]

Howdy!

Anyone here have any reviews or knowledge on the company Camus Hydronics ... my plumber recommended them for a tankless/heating solution - however I know nothing about them.

Anyone with any experience with this company and their product?

Thanks in advance.

D

[NCHC James]

check the manufacture's website

eg Rinnai's is www.foreverhotwater.com and do a dealer search, expand it to 50 miles and see if they are listed.

[sixxer]

I don't need to pay any cash up front for the installation except for signing a 2 year contract @$40 + GST per month.
However, the deal is that the $600 rebate from the Federal/Provincial Gov. will cover the installation charges. And the contractor also covers any audit fees incurred.

For your case, I don't think there is much incentive (other than space saving) in getting a tankless water heater since you are now paying $20 for monthly rental.
You'll end up paying more for renting a tankless water heater.

I was thinking of renting the navien as well. Which contractor did you use to get that rate for 2 year contract? Also I PM you for the rental info.

Thanks!

[Stranger]

Self explanatory, there is a tankless rebate from Enbridge for tankless water heaters purchased and installed or rented/leased from Mar. 2 2009 to Aug 31 2009. The rebate is $300 credited on your gas bill.

Bump on this thread.

Federal grant increased by 25% as of March 31. Ontario has matched the increase. Some have the $300 Enbridge rebate option. In Kitchener there is a $100 rebate from Kitchener Utilities. Sears is offering a $200 gift card on top of all the other rebates for tankless installs according to their website http://www.sears.ca/gp/node/n/1265267011

You may wish to look for a condensing unit for three reasons: 1) better energy efficiency, 2) cheaper install (can use PVC piping instead of stainless) and 3) larger federal/provincial rebate - $60 more each (because of the higher energy factor).

Looks like they may cost a little more for the unit itself but there seems to be some great advantages to them.

Also noticed, even though there are a wide variety of opinions on Navien, that they have a unique solution to the cold sandwich issue and minimum flow rate - built in mini buffer tank. Sears installs these and Rinnai if you're looking to take advantage of their gift card. Waiting for my call from them to get a quote. Gentle with their call centre, they seem to know very little and will set you up to get a call for a quote from someone who, hopefully, knows something.

[agiga]

Bump on this thread.

Federal grant increased by 25% as of March 31. Ontario has matched the increase. Some have the $300 Enbridge rebate option. In Kitchener there is a $100 rebate from Kitchener Utilities. Sears is offering a $200 gift card on top of all the other rebates for tankless installs according to their website http://www.sears.ca/gp/node/n/1265267011

You may wish to look for a condensing unit for three reasons: 1) better energy efficiency, 2) cheaper install (can use PVC piping instead of stainless) and 3) larger federal/provincial rebate - $60 more each (because of the higher energy factor).

Looks like they may cost a little more for the unit itself but there seems to be some great advantages to them.

Also noticed, even though there are a wide variety of opinions on Navien, that they have a unique solution to the cold sandwich issue and minimum flow rate - built in mini buffer tank. Sears installs these and Rinnai if you're looking to take advantage of their gift card. Waiting for my call from them to get a quote. Gentle with their call centre, they seem to know very little and will set you up to get a call for a quote from someone who, hopefully, knows something.

Where did you find out about the the 25% increase? Do you have a link?

[gocolts]

Where did you find out about the the 25% increase? Do you have a link?

http://www.oee.nrcan.gc.ca/residential/personal/retrofit-homes/pdf/homes-grant-e.pdf

[tor98]

I have an offer from a company called Newten ... They install a Rinnai R75LSiN for free and the rental charge is $34.71 + GST ... The buyback price for the installation year is $2,950 and reduces by $180 per year ... The termination fee for the first 5 years is $800 and it goes down by $100 per year thereafter .... Do you know any company with a better rental offer for York region?

[sonspot]

Bump on this thread.

Federal grant increased by 25% as of March 31. Ontario has matched the increase. Some have the $300 Enbridge rebate option. In Kitchener there is a $100 rebate from Kitchener Utilities. Sears is offering a $200 gift card on top of all the other rebates for tankless installs according to their website http://www.sears.ca/gp/node/n/1265267011

You may wish to look for a condensing unit for three reasons: 1) better energy efficiency, 2) cheaper install (can use PVC piping instead of stainless) and 3) larger federal/provincial rebate - $60 more each (because of the higher energy factor).

Looks like they may cost a little more for the unit itself but there seems to be some great advantages to them.

Also noticed, even though there are a wide variety of opinions on Navien, that they have a unique solution to the cold sandwich issue and minimum flow rate - built in mini buffer tank. Sears installs these and Rinnai if you're looking to take advantage of their gift card. Waiting for my call from them to get a quote. Gentle with their call centre, they seem to know very little and will set you up to get a call for a quote from someone who, hopefully, knows something.


someone's doing their homework, for the price to rent these tankless vs getting something like a state energy effi tank plus the rebate,. i dont need to tell my friends i have tankless in my house now. save some money get whats best for you not whats popular..

[roger12]

Will none of the installers/resellers on this site respond to this? We are accusing your industry of ripping us off by selling us a unit that is available in the US for less than $1000 US and selling it to us consumers for $3000+ installed! How can you justify that?

There is no point in flaming the Canadian contractors. I am sure their costs of operation (insurance, license fees, gas etc) are much higher than american counterparts. Plus they get a raw deal from distributors due to much smaller canadian market.

Maybe it's time to start a Rinnai tankless group buy to see what our buying power can do....

Group buy is win-win situation for everyone. RFDers have done before with great success. I am in for 2 units. Rinnai 75LSi (7.5 GPM) seems to be the favorite. Agiga, Genblue are you in? Any other members interested in GTA?

NCHC James or any other contractors want to participate?

It is understandable that installation cost may vary somewhat from house to house. For example, my home has a power vent installed so less cost of plumbing etc but my parents' home still has regular tank. So the contraction will need to drill and do extra plumbing.

[fergy]

*************

Shipping adding significantly more to the Canadian costs are dubvious unless they ship individually by UPS. ;-) When I spoke to a plumbing shop about an OOS item they ship them up in the next truckload of orders. Rinnai would send them by the truckload to the GTA.

It would be interesting to know what the duty might be. Aside from that the high cost of a tankless in Canada is most likely attributed to higher mark up in the supply chain starting at the manufacturer.

I doubt CSA and ULC approval adds significantly to the cost. Tank type heaters have the same approvals.

As a comparison 17 to 18 cubic foot fridges sell for as little as $400 in Canada and they weigh about 200 lbs. And those fridges were made in the US with high cost US labour. Does a fridge cost more to manufacture and ship than a tankless water heater? I've seen 40 or 60 gallon tank type water heaters on sale for as little as $175 at Canadian Tire. They had to be manufactured, shipped, ULC and CSA approved and any duties paid.

[Stranger]

Shipping adding significantly more to the Canadian costs are dubvious unless they ship individually by UPS. ;-) When I spoke to a plumbing shop about an OOS item they ship them up in the next truckload of orders. Rinnai would send them by the truckload to the GTA.

It would be interesting to know what the duty might be. Aside from that the high cost of a tankless in Canada is most likely attributed to higher mark up in the supply chain starting at the manufacturer

Duties are paid on a per shipment basis - be it one item or 200. The duty fee you see from UPS - $30 - is quite high compared to what companies with lots of cross border shipments and contracts with brokers pay.

[TE7]

Duties are paid on a per shipment basis - be it one item or 200. The duty fee you see from UPS - $30 - is quite high compared to what companies with lots of cross border shipments and contracts with brokers pay.

Never use UPS for international shipping.
Their brokerage charges are outrageous. :mad:
By the way I am in Ottawa and interested in Rinnai 75LSi

[plugdat]

interesting article...

http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/348115

is 200 amp service a prerequisite, James?

[sonspot]

what cost $3000, my parents just move into their house 4 months ago, about a month after my dad took out the 60g pv tank and put in a Rinnai, am sure he said it was around $850 $950 range, then again am not sure what you guys are pricing,..

side note, the day after they moved in we cut at least ten holes to run gas line for the gas stove and bbq and this is a brand new house with finished basement, so dont cry if you have to make a few holes to get your system installed :lol:.

[nsx]

...

Group buy is win-win situation for everyone. RFDers have done before with great success. I am in for 2 units. Rinnai 75LSi (7.5 GPM) seems to be the favorite. Agiga, Genblue are you in? Any other members interested in GTA?

NCHC James or any other contractors want to participate?
...

:!:
"2. General Rules

q. Group Buys: Group buys are allowed but are not supported by RedFlagDeals.com due to the inherent risks associated with it. For the time being, you can run a group buy thread but you are not allowed to collect administrative or other fees beyond the price of the products. Collecting fees would make it a service, which is not allowed. Group buys for lottery tickets also fall under these rules. Group buys should be placed in the appropriate topic discussion forum and not in the Hot Deals or BST forums."

Complete RFD Forum Rules & Tips - Read Before Posting - UPDATED Jan. 8/09 (http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/announcement.php?f=9&a=12)

Thanks for your co-operation.

[TE7]

interesting article...

http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/348115

is 200 amp service a prerequisite, James?

Not at all for natural gass units.
Electrical requirement from Rinnai web site is AC 120 Volts – 60 Hz

[NCHC James]

Not at all for natural gass units.
Electrical requirement from Rinnai web site is AC 120 Volts – 60 Hz

You are Correct! (not that you were looking for me to tell you that lol)

interesting article...

http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/348115

is 200 amp service a prerequisite, James?

No, if you were considering a electric tankless system you would need those requirements. A Rinnai tankless uses so little energy your home does not need an electrical upgrade at all.


:!:
"2. General Rules

q. Group Buys: Group buys are allowed but are not supported by RedFlagDeals.com due to the inherent risks associated with it. For the time being, you can run a group buy thread but you are not allowed to collect administrative or other fees beyond the price of the products. Collecting fees would make it a service, which is not allowed. Group buys for lottery tickets also fall under these rules. Group buys should be placed in the appropriate topic discussion forum and not in the Hot Deals or BST forums."

Complete RFD Forum Rules & Tips - Read Before Posting - UPDATED Jan. 8/09 (http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/announcement.php?f=9&a=12)

Thanks for your co-operation.

I did not know this, i did know we could not self promote to which this suggestion was by a RFD'r, and i did agree. I will keep this in mind.

I do accept PM's to anyone looking for further details.

[rossiman]

I thought about getting one of these but I am now leaning towards a geo-thermal system that will cool my house in the summer, heat it in the winter and provide hot water - all of it without burning a single BTU of fossil fuel.

[barto]

I thought about getting one of these but I am now leaning towards a geo-thermal system that will cool my house in the summer, heat it in the winter and provide hot water - all of it without burning a single BTU of fossil fuel.

I thought the cost for that was in the $20-$25K range, though...no?

[skategoat]

I thought the cost for that was in the $20-$25K range, though...no?

Yes, and the rebates are over $8,000. Payback is 5-7 years. If you're on oil or propane, it's even quicker.

[plugdat]

You are Correct! (not that you were looking for me to tell you that lol)



No, if you were considering a electric tankless system you would need those requirements. A Rinnai tankless uses so little energy your home does not need an electrical upgrade at all.




I did not know this, i did know we could not self promote to which this suggestion was by a RFD'r, and i did agree. I will keep this in mind.

I do accept PM's to anyone looking for further details.

Hi James,
I believe the moderator means this group buy can still happen ... but its just not supported by RFD and is in the wrong forum.
Please PM with your pricing . thanks

[Inno]

Hi James,
I believe the moderator means this group buy can still happen ... but its just not supported by RFD and is in the wrong forum.
Please PM with your pricing . thanks

Is someone going to be the point person for this possible group buy? Has a thread been set up in some other forum yet? Link here?

[Stranger]

I thought about getting one of these but I am now leaning towards a geo-thermal system that will cool my house in the summer, heat it in the winter and provide hot water - all of it without burning a single BTU of fossil fuel.

Are you using solar to power it? A good amount of our electricity come from fossil fuels but now I'm just being picky.

There's a thread around here on Geothermal http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=713339. Hopefully it works for you if you're interested but it's not necessarily cheap. It's slightly north of $1000 for the desup and most hot water is generated in the warm summer months. This means you'll still be paying, granted not for the full heating cost, for hot water in the cooler months. You'll also have a tank and it heats on the run cycles of the heat pump, not on water demand so you'll still need another hot water heater.

When I was looking at geo I was still strongly considering tankless and skipping the desup ($1000 savings on the desup, more gov't and other rebates ($750+) and eliminating one or two tanks in my basement).

I think it's a good savings but some claims of "free" when talking about geo and hot water are misleading.

[rossiman]

Are you using solar to power it? A good amount of our electricity come from fossil fuels but now I'm just being picky.

There's a thread around here on Geothermal http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=713339. Hopefully it works for you if you're interested but it's not necessarily cheap. It's slightly north of $1000 for the desup and most hot water is generated in the warm summer months. This means you'll still be paying, granted not for the full heating cost, for hot water in the cooler months. You'll also have a tank and it heats on the run cycles of the heat pump, not on water demand so you'll still need another hot water heater.

When I was looking at geo I was still strongly considering tankless and skipping the desup ($1000 savings on the desup, more gov't and other rebates ($750+) and eliminating one or two tanks in my basement).

I think it's a good savings but some claims of "free" when talking about geo and hot water are misleading.

I get your meaning about electricity. Same goes for "non-polluting" electric cars and such. But, I like the thought of not having a gas furnace and hot water heater in my basement. No worries about venting or carbon monoxide. I can get rid of my A/C compressor in my backyard too.

Anyways, this is for the geo-thermal thread. I'll leave this to tankless water heater discussion.

[roger12]

Hi James,
I believe the moderator means this group buy can still happen ... but its just not supported by RFD and is in the wrong forum.
Please PM with your pricing . thanks

:!:
"2. General Rules

q. Group Buys: Group buys are allowed but are not supported by RedFlagDeals.com due to the inherent risks associated with it. For the time being, you can run a group buy thread but you are not allowed to collect administrative or other fees beyond the price of the products. Collecting fees would make it a service, which is not allowed. Group buys for lottery tickets also fall under these rules. Group buys should be placed in the appropriate topic discussion forum and not in the Hot Deals or BST forums."

Complete RFD Forum Rules & Tips - Read Before Posting - UPDATED Jan. 8/09 (http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/announcement.php?f=9&a=12)

Thanks for your co-operation.

Hi Nsx, Is Green / Eco-Friendly forum the correct place for this discussion? We want to compile a list of RFDers in GTA and Ottawa region who are interested. Contractors may provide quote through forum, PM or phone...whichever way is permitted by RFD rules.

[plugdat]

Hi Nsx, Is Green / Eco-Friendly forum the correct place for this discussion? We want to compile a list of RFDers in GTA and Ottawa region who are interested. Contractors may provide quote through forum, PM or phone...whichever way is permitted by RFD rules.

Since i haven't heard from James .. i called a few places ....
the one that stood out for me was Mark from GFORCE
G FORCE AIR INC.
416-622-9030
www.gforceair.com

He seems patient and pretty knowledgable and his pricing was pretty fair.
He seemed open to a group thing but honestly i don't really have the time to organize this .. but he said would accept calls from whomever wanted to talk to him... .just mention Kirby referred you.

[NCHC James]

Hi James,
I believe the moderator means this group buy can still happen ... but its just not supported by RFD and is in the wrong forum.
Please PM with your pricing . thanks


I didn't get a chance to reply faster..

if i get a list via PM's or emails, i will keep everyone informed to the size of the list to let everyone know the min has been met and i'll gladly work out all details as group emails.

I've enjoyed the site, keeps me on my toes! with that, don't want to step on any toes of the site Mod's.

[DealMakerLoverBreaker]

Hi Nsx, Is Green / Eco-Friendly forum the correct place for this discussion? We want to compile a list of RFDers in GTA and Ottawa region who are interested. Contractors may provide quote through forum, PM or phone...whichever way is permitted by RFD rules.

I see discussion on this forum has come to a standstill. I'm sure many people are sending pm's to James but it would be nice if the forum could still be moved to a discussion forum so that we could all continue to share info and also those of us in Ottawa that are interested need to still try and arrange a group buy if possible.

[plugdat]

I see discussion on this forum has come to a standstill. I'm sure many people are sending pm's to James but it would be nice if the forum could still be moved to a discussion forum so that we could all continue to share info and also those of us in Ottawa that are interested need to still try and arrange a group buy if possible.

James has indicated 10ppl min for group buy

[vipt2000]

The R53 can only deliver 3.1g/min as compare to the R85 can deliver 3.8g/min




15,000BTU is the MININUM gas requirement. When the unit is at full blast (i.e. shower running), the R53 needs 150,000BTU and the R85 needs 180,000 BTU. That extra 30,000BTU get you an bit extra water flow.

For people that consider installing a tankless heater, also get a UPS (a small 600VA should be sufficient). No power = No hot water does not matter how short is the outage.

I haven't read the entire thread yet. But a quick question for the expert here: What happen if your electricity outage for more than a few hours or days? Even with the UPS, you would only have hot water for a very short period of time. Is it true?

The tankless water is very good considering all the rebates. My rental water tank was just replaced last year. I think it cost around 40 a month (10 for rental plus 30 for gas consumption). Would it still worth to replace with tankless?

What are your options? buy or rent?

Thanks.

I will continue to read this thread....

[Ride-On]

I haven't read the entire thread yet. But a quick question for the expert here: What happen if your electricity outage for more than a few hours or days? Even with the UPS, you would only have hot water for a very short period of time. Is it true?

The tankless water is very good considering all the rebates. My rental water tank was just replaced last year. I think it cost around 40 a month (10 for rental plus 30 for gas consumption). Would it still worth to replace with tankless?

What are your options? buy or rent?

Thanks.

I will continue to read this thread....

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this the case with a normal gas water heater too? You would only have residual heat in the tank and as you use that water up, more cold water fills the tank anyways. If you have a UPS on a tankless, you might actually be ahead of the game (in my non-expert opinion).

[roger12]

I see discussion on this forum has come to a standstill. I'm sure many people are sending pm's to James but it would be nice if the forum could still be moved to a discussion forum so that we could all continue to share info and also those of us in Ottawa that are interested need to still try and arrange a group buy if possible.

I was initially compiling the list of people who are interested in the group buy. I still have that list at home. So I will start a new discussion in Green section and post the link here.

[fergy]

I haven't read the entire thread yet. But a quick question for the expert here: What happen if your electricity outage for more than a few hours or days? Even with the UPS, you would only have hot water for a very short period of time. Is it true?

The tankless water is very good considering all the rebates. My rental water tank was just replaced last year. I think it cost around 40 a month (10 for rental plus 30 for gas consumption). Would it still worth to replace with tankless?

What are your options? buy or rent?

Thanks.

I will continue to read this thread....

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this the case with a normal gas water heater too? You would only have residual heat in the tank and as you use that water up, more cold water fills the tank anyways. If you have a UPS on a tankless, you might actually be ahead of the game (in my non-expert opinion).


My tank doesn't use any electricity as it doesn't have a fan powered vent. So for that type a power failure doesn't have an impact. Some tankes do have powered vents. Someone said the tankless use 100 watts of power. That's quite a lot of power so unless you have a large UPS the hot water may run out for lack of power. UPS's also degrade over time (capacity diminishes). They use lead acid batteries of some type. You would probably have to replace the UPS after 3 to 5 years for it to have any sort of usefulness if the power does run out.

[NCHC James]

I haven't read the entire thread yet. But a quick question for the expert here: What happen if your electricity outage for more than a few hours or days? Even with the UPS, you would only have hot water for a very short period of time. Is it true?

The tankless water is very good considering all the rebates. My rental water tank was just replaced last year. I think it cost around 40 a month (10 for rental plus 30 for gas consumption). Would it still worth to replace with tankless?

What are your options? buy or rent?

Thanks.

I will continue to read this thread....


Depending on what size of UPS you have, the Rinnai only requires approx 100watts so could last very long on a UPS system. if you are without electricity for more than a day there might be more we need to worry about.

as for renting or purchasing, i think it becomes a personal choice more than anything. some say to rent as it is a new product, when in fact tankless has been around for 60yrs.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this the case with a normal gas water heater too? You would only have residual heat in the tank and as you use that water up, more cold water fills the tank anyways. If you have a UPS on a tankless, you might actually be ahead of the game (in my non-expert opinion).

With a natural draft hotwater tank, it can keep heating (as it does all the time now) without electrcity. a powervented hotwater tank would require to electricity to reheat other than what is in the tank.


Roger, let me know the list as you see it growing and i'll defantly put something together.

DealMakerLoverBreaker - You are correct, i do get a fair amount of questions, those i can help in our area, others out of our area. but i like to help all that inquire.

[kasm]

James,

Does the Rinnai require a 1" gas pipe or will a 3/4 " suffice? I have a furnace and a gas fireplace in addition to a future Rinnai.

[Twinkletwinkle]

I have a household of 8, including teenagers that take long hot showers daily. I am thinking of making the switch from tank to tankless. It seems the Rinnai R75LS is the most popular brand. I have a quote of $3500 installed or #33.50 monthly rental plus $600-1000 installation from DE. I am thinking this is a bit high upfront. I am not too sure if I will save energy costs due to the numerous demands: constant hand washing, 3-4 loads daily laundry, daily use of dishwashers, etc. Is there any certified HVAC contractor that will do the installation if I buy the unit online from ebay? Do I need the R94 model over the R75 for my larger family?

[Genblue]

I have a household of 8, including teenagers that take long hot showers daily. I am thinking of making the switch from tank to tankless. It seems the Rinnai R75LS is the most popular brand. I have a quote of $3500 installed or #33.50 monthly rental plus $600-1000 installation from DE. I am thinking this is a bit high upfront. I am not too sure if I will save energy costs due to the numerous demands: constant hand washing, 3-4 loads daily laundry, daily use of dishwashers, etc. Is there any certified HVAC contractor that will do the installation if I buy the unit online from ebay? Do I need the R94 model over the R75 for my larger family?
Check out the group buy thead in the Eco/Green Forum led by Roger12. You can get the Rinnai R75LSi for $2,099+gst, installed.

Good luck.

[roger12]

I have a household of 8, including teenagers that take long hot showers daily. I am thinking of making the switch from tank to tankless. It seems the Rinnai R75LS is the most popular brand. I have a quote of $3500 installed or #33.50 monthly rental plus $600-1000 installation from DE. I am thinking this is a bit high upfront. I am not too sure if I will save energy costs due to the numerous demands: constant hand washing, 3-4 loads daily laundry, daily use of dishwashers, etc. Is there any certified HVAC contractor that will do the installation if I buy the unit online from ebay? Do I need the R94 model over the R75 for my larger family?

RFDers are trying to organize a group buy for Rinnai 7.5GPM unit to get a good deal. You may check the details...

Edit: Genblue beat me by 1 minute :)

[fergy]

I have a household of 8, including teenagers that take long hot showers daily. I am thinking of making the switch from tank to tankless. It seems the Rinnai R75LS is the most popular brand. I have a quote of $3500 installed or #33.50 monthly rental plus $600-1000 installation from DE. I am thinking this is a bit high upfront. I am not too sure if I will save energy costs due to the numerous demands: constant hand washing, 3-4 loads daily laundry, daily use of dishwashers, etc. Is there any certified HVAC contractor that will do the installation if I buy the unit online from ebay? Do I need the R94 model over the R75 for my larger family?

Ebay? Be careful it might be illegal to install a non CSA certified unit. And if your insurance company found out...

If you go rental you don't get the rebates. If you buy you may qualify for various rebates depending on what province you live in.

If you want to save energy an easy way is to turn down the temperature of the water. That way less cold is mixed in with the hot for showers and washing laundry. You can also wash laundry in cold water. Consumers Reports found Cold Water Tide worked as well as the regular Tide. There are other brands to choose from. We use cold water only for laundry. With the tankless you never run out of hot water so your kids can take even longer showers which is something to think about. My understanding is that the payback time is slower for people who use lots of hot water over the course of the day?

There was a couple of links to some good articles on tank vs tankless in this thread.

http://www.askthebuilder.com/710_Tankless_Water_Heater.shtml

Tankless vs. Tank Type Storage Water Heater Efficiency Comparison Testing

http://www.pmengineer.com/CDA/Archives/8cf9e86f7c298010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____

[roger12]

If you go rental you don't get the rebates. If you buy you may qualify for various rebates depending on what province you live in.
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I think rental qualifies for few rebates but most companies want around $35/month for tankless rental which IMO is insane.

[fergy]

I think rental qualifies for few rebates but most companies want around $35/month for tankless rental which IMO is insane.

$35 a month rental does sound like plenty. Then add the harmonized sales tax in Ontario next year and it would be $40/month or $475 a year. Almost $5,000 in 10 years!

I own my gas water heater. I installed it myself for $255 taxes and supplies included. Free inspection and compliance sticker from the gas company.

How much is the rental for a regular tank type gas water heater?

[roger12]

$35 a month rental does sound like plenty. Then add the harmonized sales tax in Ontario next year and it would be $40/month or $475 a year. Almost $5,000 in 10 years!

I own my gas water heater. I installed it myself for $255 taxes and supplies included. Free inspection and compliance sticker from the gas company.

How much is the rental for a regular tank type gas water heater?

Regular tank is about 10 to 20/month depending on if it is power vent. I have gotten several quotes from Direct Energy, Reliance etc and they are all in the same ballpark.

Considering the cost of renting these units plus money evaporated in keeping them hot 24/7 plus all the rebates available, I decided it was time to move on to a tankless unit.

[fergy]

Regular tank is about 10 to 20/month depending on if it is power vent. I have gotten several quotes from Direct Energy, Reliance etc and they are all in the same ballpark.

Considering the cost of renting these units plus money evaporated in keeping them hot 24/7 plus all the rebates available, I decided it was time to move on to a tankless unit.


I should look for some bills from last summer when the furnace was off to get an idea how much it cost to run the gas hot water tank by itself.

[whodaphucru]

My power vent unit from direct energy that came with the new house was the only thing running in the summer and my gas bills were about $65 or so. Of that $19.99 was the rental cost, there was a minimum charge of about $15 and the rest was gas usage. I am guessing that $5-$10/ month is what I would save at most.

[roger12]

My power vent unit from direct energy that came with the new house was the only thing running in the summer and my gas bills were about $65 or so. Of that $19.99 was the rental cost, there was a minimum charge of about $15 and the rest was gas usage. I am guessing that $5-$10/ month is what I would save at most.

So you are saying your hot water consumption in summer is same as winters?:-0

Edit: Dont forget to include 19.99+tax (rental fees) as part of your savings...

[fergy]

My power vent unit from direct energy that came with the new house was the only thing running in the summer and my gas bills were about $65 or so. Of that $19.99 was the rental cost, there was a minimum charge of about $15 and the rest was gas usage. I am guessing that $5-$10/ month is what I would save at most.

So you are saying your hot water consumption in summer is same as winters?:-0

Edit: Dont forget to include 19.99+tax (rental fees) as part of your savings...

Would you be suggesting hot water consumption would be higher in the summer or winter?

[roger12]

Would you be suggesting hot water consumption would be higher in the summer or winter?
Yes we have noticed that in winters we tend to use "warmer" water than summers. I think it is natural because when everything is so cold, it is comforting to wash hands and take shower in very warm/hot water...

Also, in winters, hot water pipes all over the house and specially in the basement are dissipating more heat which increases the hot water heating bill...

[whodaphucru]

So you are saying your hot water consumption in summer is same as winters?:-0

Edit: Dont forget to include 19.99+tax (rental fees) as part of your savings...

It is a fair proxy given that I can't directly calculate gas usage in the winter for each appliance (fireplace, furnace, etc.) versus the total bill. While I know that incoming water is warmer in the summer so it should be heated less the stand-by loss should be similar as the ambient room temperature is almost exactly the same.

I do consider the rental cost in my thought process, using the rental cost is the only way to justify a tankless unit financially (as seen in a home & garden tankless post I made), the gas savings alone are not significant. Here is from another post I made:

Here is the math I have used to think about this decision:

Unit Installed - $3000 (if you get it for cheaper then payback will be lower but this is for illustrative purposes)

Ecoenergy Rebate - $625 ($750 if it is a condensing unit)
Enbridge Rebate - $300
Home Renovation Tax Credit - $405 (assuming 13.5% of installed price so this will go down if price goes down, I use 13.5% for all improvements I do to factor in the first $1000 with no tax credit)

Out of pocket cost - ~$1670

Currently annual rental cost - $240 + GST ($19.99/ month from direct energy)
Gas savings - $60 ($5/ month)

Total Annual Savings - ~$300

Payback - $1670/$300 = ~5.5 years (lower if gas savings are greater or natural gas costs increase over time)

If you are not renting currently or are planning to switch from tank rental to tankless rental it is much harder if not impossible to establish a payback period even with the rebates. My 2 cents!

[Twinkletwinkle]

It is a fair proxy given that I can't directly calculate gas usage in the winter for each appliance (fireplace, furnace, etc.) versus the total bill. While I know that incoming water is warmer in the summer so it should be heated less the stand-by loss should be similar as the ambient room temperature is almost exactly the same.

I do consider the rental cost in my thought process, using the rental cost is the only way to justify a tankless unit financially (as seen in a home & garden tankless post I made), the gas savings alone are not significant. Here is from another post I made:

Here is the math I have used to think about this decision:

Unit Installed - $3000 (if you get it for cheaper then payback will be lower but this is for illustrative purposes)

Ecoenergy Rebate - $625 ($750 if it is a condensing unit)
Enbridge Rebate - $300
Home Renovation Tax Credit - $405 (assuming 13.5% of installed price so this will go down if price goes down, I use 13.5% for all improvements I do to factor in the first $1000 with no tax credit)

Out of pocket cost - ~$1670

Currently annual rental cost - $240 + GST ($19.99/ month from direct energy)
Gas savings - $60 ($5/ month)

Total Annual Savings - ~$300

Payback - $1670/$300 = ~5.5 years (lower if gas savings are greater or natural gas costs increase over time)

If you are not renting currently or are planning to switch from tank rental to tankless rental it is much harder if not impossible to establish a payback period even with the rebates. My 2 cents!

Bear in mind that some people will eat up the home reno tax credit from other projects e.g basement finishing, putting up a deck, carpeting etc with no room for the tankless water upgrade. In this scenario, the payback time is even longer - 2075/300 = 7 years.

[Twinkletwinkle]

It is a fair proxy given that I can't directly calculate gas usage in the winter for each appliance (fireplace, furnace, etc.) versus the total bill. While I know that incoming water is warmer in the summer so it should be heated less the stand-by loss should be similar as the ambient room temperature is almost exactly the same.

I do consider the rental cost in my thought process, using the rental cost is the only way to justify a tankless unit financially (as seen in a home & garden tankless post I made), the gas savings alone are not significant. Here is from another post I made:

Here is the math I have used to think about this decision:

Unit Installed - $3000 (if you get it for cheaper then payback will be lower but this is for illustrative purposes)

Ecoenergy Rebate - $625 ($750 if it is a condensing unit)
Enbridge Rebate - $300
Home Renovation Tax Credit - $405 (assuming 13.5% of installed price so this will go down if price goes down, I use 13.5% for all improvements I do to factor in the first $1000 with no tax credit)

Out of pocket cost - ~$1670

Currently annual rental cost - $240 + GST ($19.99/ month from direct energy)
Gas savings - $60 ($5/ month)

Total Annual Savings - ~$300

Payback - $1670/$300 = ~5.5 years (lower if gas savings are greater or natural gas costs increase over time)

If you are not renting currently or are planning to switch from tank rental to tankless rental it is much harder if not impossible to establish a payback period even with the rebates. My 2 cents!

I thought the combined ecoenergy rebate was $500?

[whodaphucru]

I thought the combined ecoenergy rebate was $500?

It increased on March 31st. Everything went up 25%.

[whodaphucru]

Bear in mind that some people will eat up the home reno tax credit from other projects e.g basement finishing, putting up a deck, carpeting etc with no room for the tankless water upgrade. In this scenario, the payback time is even longer - 2075/300 = 7 years.

Agreed, that is just for my situation and how I am looking at the purchase. When I pull the trigger I'll likely be right around $10K so it should be close.

[agiga]

It is a fair proxy given that I can't directly calculate gas usage in the winter for each appliance (fireplace, furnace, etc.) versus the total bill. While I know that incoming water is warmer in the summer so it should be heated less the stand-by loss should be similar as the ambient room temperature is almost exactly the same.

I do consider the rental cost in my thought process, using the rental cost is the only way to justify a tankless unit financially (as seen in a home & garden tankless post I made), the gas savings alone are not significant. Here is from another post I made:

Here is the math I have used to think about this decision:

Unit Installed - $3000 (if you get it for cheaper then payback will be lower but this is for illustrative purposes)

Ecoenergy Rebate - $625 ($750 if it is a condensing unit)
Enbridge Rebate - $300
Home Renovation Tax Credit - $405 (assuming 13.5% of installed price so this will go down if price goes down, I use 13.5% for all improvements I do to factor in the first $1000 with no tax credit)

Out of pocket cost - ~$1670

Currently annual rental cost - $240 + GST ($19.99/ month from direct energy)
Gas savings - $60 ($5/ month)

Total Annual Savings - ~$300

Payback - $1670/$300 = ~5.5 years (lower if gas savings are greater or natural gas costs increase over time)

If you are not renting currently or are planning to switch from tank rental to tankless rental it is much harder if not impossible to establish a payback period even with the rebates. My 2 cents!

Keep in mind there is a cost for the audit to get the eco energy rebates. The cost is $300 for the initial audit less a $150 rebate + $150 for the second audit which is done to confirm what renos you have done to qualify for rebates.

[jedisky]

yeah, you need to pay $250 up front and spend 1-2 hrs doing a home evaluation 1st. if you don't, then you don't get any of those ecorebates. we had it done before our furnace, so now whatever we do to make our home more efficient (windows, doors, insulation, leaks, low flow toilets etc), we get ecorebates as well as whatever ones are available (mb hydro, 15% reno rebate etc).

is it any step after you installed everything. were there any other investigation fee charged on your bill?:?:

[jedisky]

Keep in mind there is a cost for the audit to get the eco energy rebates. The cost is $300 for the initial audit less a $150 rebate + $150 for the second audit which is done to confirm what renos you have done to qualify for rebates.

That's everything i wanna know. Clearly!!!!!

[mart242]

I have an offer from a company called Newten ... They install a Rinnai R75LSiN for free and the rental charge is $34.71 + GST ... The buyback price for the installation year is $2,950 and reduces by $180 per year ... The termination fee for the first 5 years is $800 and it goes down by $100 per year thereafter .... Do you know any company with a better rental offer for York region?

FWIW, the company is Newten. I got their offer tonight, the buy out is 2650$ during the first year in my case.. weird. Or maybe that's only for Ottawa..

I am actually tempted by the offer but can't help to wonder if it's not simply a scam or something too good to be true..

[agiga]

FWIW, the company is Newten. I got their offer tonight, the buy out is 2650$ during the first year in my case.. weird. Or maybe that's only for Ottawa..

I am actually tempted by the offer but can't help to wonder if it's not simply a scam or something too good to be true..

Why not go in on the group deal we're getting for $2099 + gst installed. It's $550 cheaper than the buyout you've been offered plus will save you one year of rental payments which is about $400 more so you're still paying $3000 plus.

Here's the link to the group deals if you're interested:
http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=728025

[Twinkletwinkle]

Why not go in on the group deal we're getting for $2099 + gst installed. It's $550 cheaper than the buyout you've been offered plus will save you one year of rental payments which is about $400 more so you're still paying $3000 plus.

Here's the link to the group deals if you're interested:
http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=728025

I live in Ottawa. I might be interested in the groupbuy. I am not comfortable with putting up money upfront and without a prior inspection and consultation with an actual contractor.

[mart242]

Why not go in on the group deal we're getting for $2099 + gst installed. It's $550 cheaper than the buyout you've been offered plus will save you one year of rental payments which is about $400 more so you're still paying $3000 plus.

Here's the link to the group deals if you're interested:
http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=728025

With the group buy, I'd need to pay the extra 300$ for them to upgrade my gas line to 1".. and 100$ or so for them to take my old tank out... and the extra x$ since my gas run is a lot more than 10'. Not really worth it in my case.

[roger12]

With the group buy, I'd need to pay the extra 300$ for them to upgrade my gas line to 1".. and 100$ or so for them to take my old tank out... and the extra x$ since my gas run is a lot more than 10'. Not really worth it in my case.

Looks like your installation is a little complicated. But group buy will still be much less than 3k cost for your rental with buyout after first year...

[steinberg]

With the group buy, I'd need to pay the extra 300$ for them to upgrade my gas line to 1".. and 100$ or so for them to take my old tank out... and the extra x$ since my gas run is a lot more than 10'. Not really worth it in my case.
Same here. Extra $100 for returning the tank, $350 for covering the open hole of chimney, $300 for extra elbow and 6 ft pipe... It's not worth to me as well.
Actually I got someone quote me $2300 include all above last year, but, still, rebate is about $900, I have to pull out from pocket $1500. My current renting tank is only $13/month, 10 year for payback? Also, plus service charge and maintenance charge, is it worth to change?

[mart242]

Actually I got someone quote me $2300 include all above last year, but, still, rebate is about $900, I have to pull out from pocket $1500. My current renting tank is only $13/month, 10 year for payback? Also, plus service charge and maintenance charge, is it worth to change?

Well I did some more "investigation" regarding the quote that I got from Newten.. the guy said that there would be no extra fee but I called the contractor who would be doing the job and asked him if the switch to 1" (from 3/4 gas line) was included.. he said no, that's extra. Minimum 300$ because I need a friggin long pipe.

F it, I'm sticking with my tank. 21$ a month for rental, I may just buy it out. I'll stick to a tank for a while. The savings are definitely not worth it

[plugdat]

Same here. Extra $100 for returning the tank, $350 for covering the open hole of chimney, $300 for extra elbow and 6 ft pipe... It's not worth to me as well.
Actually I got someone quote me $2300 include all above last year, but, still, rebate is about $900, I have to pull out from pocket $1500. My current renting tank is only $13/month, 10 year for payback? Also, plus service charge and maintenance charge, is it worth to change?

you also get about $350 back for home tax renovation credit on top of that $900.

which makes it around 7 ~ 8 years payback thats without calculating any energy savings

[tottiwenjie]

Same here. Extra $100 for returning the tank, $350 for covering the open hole of chimney, $300 for extra elbow and 6 ft pipe... It's not worth to me as well.
Actually I got someone quote me $2300 include all above last year, but, still, rebate is about $900, I have to pull out from pocket $1500. My current renting tank is only $13/month, 10 year for payback? Also, plus service charge and maintenance charge, is it worth to change?

And you need to count your gas bill saving....

[mart242]

And you need to count your gas bill saving....

Honestly, I'd say that is debatable. I'm not sure that savings are really there..

[fourtwenty]

Honestly, I'd say that is debatable. I'm not sure that savings are really there..

They definitely are. You're only heating the water you use. With a tank a large amount of water is kept hot even when you are not using it. If you can't understand that then you need to do some research on heat loss. I don't care how much insulation you wrap around a tank, you are still going to lose heat.

[mart242]

They definitely are. You're only heating the water you use. With a tank a large amount of water is kept hot even when you are not using it. If you can't understand that then you need to do some research on heat loss.

But on the other end, with a tankless it appears that everyone uses more hot water.. ie: "I can now fill my large tub without running out of hot water", "I can now take a 30 minutes long shower", ...

[sazaks]

Honestly, I'd say that is debatable. I'm not sure that savings are really there..

I have only one appliance on natural gas ant it's my power vent hot water heater. We are two people and take on average 2 showers each a day. If I take out the Enbridge $14 customer charges, we consume an average of about $10 of gas a month. It's also important to remember, heat loss isn't "wasted" as it does contribute to offset the house heating 7 month of the year.

Every household is different, but I can't see how the numbers add up unless you are really high usage.

[plugdat]

I have only one appliance on natural gas ant it's my power vent hot water heater. We are two people and take on average 2 showers each a day. If I take out the Enbridge $14 customer charges, we consume an average of about $10 of gas a month. It's also important to remember, heat loss isn't "wasted" as it does contribute to offset the house heating 7 month of the year.

Every household is different, but I can't see how the numbers add up unless you are really high usage.

they liken tankless to driving a hybrid
if u don't take longer showers and etc. then u'll benefit
actually .. HIGH usage of hotwater is actually less savings
if u're a low usage user such a 2 ppl (especially seniors or young families who arne't home during they day) they say u're a prime candidate....

[soblecram]

Man, I wish I could join in the group buy... I am stuck in the boonies outside of Ottawa, with an Oil fired hot water heater . yes, I know there are tankless for oil as well, but couple that with the radiant in floor heating, and I cannot get a tankless (at least, according to Ultramar, who is the oil provider)

[roger12]

But on the other end, with a tankless it appears that everyone uses more hot water.. ie: "I can now fill my large tub without running out of hot water", "I can now take a 30 minutes long shower", ...

You may want to read this for another RFDer's experience with tankless Rinnai. Very detailed post (#42)

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=696827&page=3

[steinberg]

Bump on this thread.

Federal grant increased by 25% as of March 31. Ontario has matched the increase. Some have the $300 Enbridge rebate option. In Kitchener there is a $100 rebate from Kitchener Utilities. Sears is offering a $200 gift card on top of all the other rebates for tankless installs according to their website http://www.sears.ca/gp/node/n/1265267011

You may wish to look for a condensing unit for three reasons: 1) better energy efficiency, 2) cheaper install (can use PVC piping instead of stainless) and 3) larger federal/provincial rebate - $60 more each (because of the higher energy factor).

Looks like they may cost a little more for the unit itself but there seems to be some great advantages to them.

Also noticed, even though there are a wide variety of opinions on Navien, that they have a unique solution to the cold sandwich issue and minimum flow rate - built in mini buffer tank. Sears installs these and Rinnai if you're looking to take advantage of their gift card. Waiting for my call from them to get a quote. Gentle with their call centre, they seem to know very little and will set you up to get a call for a quote from someone who, hopefully, knows something.

For Navien CR-210 vs. Cr-210A, it cost how much more to get this "A" model for the feature "no cold sandwich"? Like Rinnai and navien (not "A" model), how bad is this cold sandwich? How this feel, I mean is it worth to pay extra money to get A model?

[steinberg]

Someone told, Navien can reach 98% efficiency in summer time, but in winter time the efficiency rate can drop to 50-60%, while Rinnai is more average of 82% efficiency rate in year round. Don't understand why Navien, the condensate type high efficiency tankless, efficiency rate drops in winter?

[whodaphucru]

For Navien CR-210 vs. Cr-210A, it cost how much more to get this "A" model for the feature "no cold sandwich"? Like Rinnai and navien (not "A" model), how bad is this cold sandwich? How this feel, I mean is it worth to pay extra money to get A model?

I recently bought the Navien 240A unit through Sears and I have had no issues/ cold water sandwichs and think it is a great unit. The exhaust piping option is much better than the Rinnai since it uses the 3" white ABS.

I am surprised that more people aren't talking about the Navien and the 98% efficiency. I guess it is largely due to the fact that most of the small guys/ independant contractors sell Rinnai as does enbridge and there appears to be only a hand full of vendors selling Navien, Sears and Enwise are the only ones I am aware of.

I don't buy the huge drop in efficieny during the the winter for the Navien and I find it hard to believe it wouldn't impact the Rinnai during the same time if it is true. Unless I am missing something that doesn't make a lot of scientific sense!

[roger12]

Got my Rinnai tankless installed yesterday. So far happy very happy with the performance. I posted lot more details in Group Buy thread if you are interested....

Now I need to return the tank to Reliance otherwise they will charge 100 bucks.

Anyone received Enbridge rebate yet? How long did it take to process?

[roger12]

Edit: Even if I return the tank, Reliance will charge $40+gst. Is that what direct energy and other rental companies do? Sounds like a shaddy business practice to me.

Got my Rinnai tankless installed yesterday. So far happy very happy with the performance. I posted lot more details in Group Buy thread if you are interested....

Now I need to return the tank to Reliance otherwise they will charge 100 bucks.

Anyone received Enbridge rebate yet? How long did it take to process?

[NCHC James]

I recently bought the Navien 240A unit through Sears and I have had no issues/ cold water sandwichs and think it is a great unit. The exhaust piping option is much better than the Rinnai since it uses the 3" white ABS.

I am surprised that more people aren't talking about the Navien and the 98% efficiency. I guess it is largely due to the fact that most of the small guys/ independant contractors sell Rinnai as does enbridge and there appears to be only a hand full of vendors selling Navien, Sears and Enwise are the only ones I am aware of.

I don't buy the huge drop in efficieny during the the winter for the Navien and I find it hard to believe it wouldn't impact the Rinnai during the same time if it is true. Unless I am missing something that doesn't make a lot of scientific sense!

Navien had a lot of issues in the past when first released, where Rinnai has been a proven system for years. It's not a matter of smaller companies only using Rinnai, most if not all are using them. Sears and Enwise had set up with Rinnai first, Sears stepped off to offer something different so they don't match everyone else.

the Navien has some great idea's, however they had a problem with their units leaking and/or flow sensor seems to get a film here in Canada they did not expect, the unit to the home owner looks ready (and is), however when the homeowner turns on the hotwater tap, the unit does not sense the water flow and does not come on. to fix, must remove sensor and either replace or clean very well. and sometimes the cleaning doesn't work.

Just a FYI.

[TRK9]

Anyone have the Navien installed? I'd like some feedback on it. I'm looking at the CR210A.

[roger12]

Not sure about Navien but I am very happy with my Rinnai after couple of weeks of use.

Anyone have the Navien installed? I'd like some feedback on it. I'm looking at the CR210A.

[whodaphucru]

Anyone have the Navien installed? I'd like some feedback on it. I'm looking at the CR210A.

My father inlaw also got a CR240A and has been very happy with it so far. He looked into the CR210A unit but said it wasn't that much cheaper and decided to spend a bit more for the higher capacity unit.

[Petrag]

My father inlaw also got a CR240A and has been very happy with it so far. He looked into the CR210A unit but said it wasn't that much cheaper and decided to spend a bit more for the higher capacity unit.

Can you please post what the Navien cost and where he got it from ?

Thanks !

[TRK9]

My father inlaw also got a CR240A and has been very happy with it so far. He looked into the CR210A unit but said it wasn't that much cheaper and decided to spend a bit more for the higher capacity unit.

Thanks for the reply. Everyone says the Rinnai's are great and reliable and I've seen some pretty negative comments on the Navien's, but I like the specs on the Navien's.

Not an easy choice.

[Stranger]

Anyone have the Navien installed? I'd like some feedback on it. I'm looking at the CR210A.

I installed mine back in early May. No issues so far. As someone else commented, it was nice to install with the 3" ABS pipe.

My father inlaw also got a CR240A and has been very happy with it so far. He looked into the CR210A unit but said it wasn't that much cheaper and decided to spend a bit more for the higher capacity unit.

I bought and installed the 240A. The price difference was $180 from the 210A. We have 3 showers in the house and regularily run two at once. The 240A should provide enough for 2 plus laundry/dishwasher/other application or 3 showers (if we have company) in the winter with a 77 degree rise. During the summer this is a large unit that will handle anything and seems a bit unnecessary but $180 over 15-20 years is nothing.

Can you please post what the Navien cost and where he got it from ?

Thanks !

I bought mine from Emco (they have locations all over Ontario at least). The CR-240A cost me just over $1900 including tax. Copper pipe and fittings, tools for doing the plumbing, ABS pipe and fitting and glue cost another $150 or so. Professional gas install, including pipe and fittings, cost $150-$200. So if you're handy you can save more than a few bucks.

[Stranger]

Someone told, Navien can reach 98% efficiency in summer time, but in winter time the efficiency rate can drop to 50-60%, while Rinnai is more average of 82% efficiency rate in year round. Don't understand why Navien, the condensate type high efficiency tankless, efficiency rate drops in winter?

I wouldn't believe there's any truth to that. It will cost you more to heat your water in the winter, as you'll need a higher rise in temperature, but I don't believe it's less efficient. Remember, efficiency is a measure of how much energy is "lost", or not utilized in the desired action. If the Navien actually had an issue such as that it wouldn't have the Energy Star rating it has nor be an eligable item for the Federal and Provincial rebates.

[Stranger]

Edit: Even if I return the tank, Reliance will charge $40+gst. Is that what direct energy and other rental companies do? Sounds like a shaddy business practice to me.

Kitchener Utilities charges $65 for pick-up if the tank is already disconnected from gas and water sources. They don't allow you to drop it off so that's the minimum you have to pay when cancelling your rental. Shaddy, not really. Might be nice if there were other options but it does make sense to me how they have it setup.

[Petrag]

I bought mine from Emco (they have locations all over Ontario at least). The CR-240A cost me just over $1900 including tax. Copper pipe and fittings, tools for doing the plumbing, ABS pipe and fitting and glue cost another $150 or so. Professional gas install, including pipe and fittings, cost $150-$200. So if you're handy you can save more than a few bucks.

Can you tell me how much you have saved since that time ? I want to see what the payback is for the expense of buying the Navien.

Thanks for replying so promptly !

[Stranger]

Can you tell me how much you have saved since that time ? I want to see what the payback is for the expense of buying the Navien.

Thanks for replying so promptly !

I think it would be too early to tell how much I might have saved on my natural gas bill. Here's the math I did use though for payback which made it pretty simple:

$1900 (large CR-240A tankless) + $150 (install parts) + $200 (gas install) = ~$2250

$100 (Kitchener Utilities rebate) + $750 ($375 ecoenergy federal, $375 ecoenergy provincial) = $850

$2250 - $850 = $1400

Was paying $22 per month for 60 gallon power vented rental tank plus $3 for anti-scald valve (required) = $25/mo

$1400/$25 = 56 months or 4.6 years

So long as it last more than 5 years I've saved on raw, easily quantifiable, costs, forgetting about energy savings. The tankless heater has a 12 year warranty. We also never run out of hot water now, even in the winter with a 77 degree temperature rise and three showers going.

For those nit pickers, sure there's costs for the audits to get the eco rebates and probably tax on my rental equipment, slight variances on parts and gas install but roughly a 5 year pay back plus energy savings of an unknown quantity (but greater than $0).

Word of advice, ensure you spend the money to get bypass valves installed that also have connectors that will allow you to flush the system. This will save you significantly if you ever have a problem and also allow you to run a cleaning agent through the heater once and a while.

[Petrag]

I think it would be too early to tell how much I might have saved on my natural gas bill. Here's the math I did use though for payback which made it pretty simple:

$1900 (large CR-240A tankless) + $150 (install parts) + $200 (gas install) = ~$2250

$100 (Kitchener Utilities rebate) + $750 ($375 ecoenergy federal, $375 ecoenergy provincial) = $850

$2250 - $850 = $1400

Was paying $22 per month for 60 gallon power vented rental tank plus $3 for anti-scald valve (required) = $25/mo

$1400/$25 = 56 months or 4.6 years

So long as it last more than 5 years I've saved on raw, easily quantifiable, costs, forgetting about energy savings. The tankless heater has a 12 year warranty. We also never run out of hot water now, even in the winter with a 77 degree temperature rise and three showers going.

For those nit pickers, sure there's costs for the audits to get the eco rebates and probably tax on my rental equipment, slight variances on parts and gas install but roughly a 5 year pay back plus energy savings of an unknown quantity (but greater than $0).

Word of advice, ensure you spend the money to get bypass valves installed that also have connectors that will allow you to flush the system. This will save you significantly if you ever have a problem and also allow you to run a cleaning agent through the heater once and a while.

Have you seen a reduction in monthly gas charges ? Never running out of Hot water is an immeasurable benefit.

Thanks again for all the info. !

[alpinest]

I've been looking at the Navien CR180A for my house in Ottawa. I wish to use the unit for both domestic hot water and house heating. Has anyone else done this? Is there someone in Ottawa that will work with me to design the system at a reasonable price? I'm actually considering renting the unit at $35/month which is $15 more than what I pay now, so I expect the savings to help witht he difference, and the company is offering free installation (I need 30 feet of vent pipe) so I'm guessing that costs at least $500 in materials and gas hookup. The catch, is to get out of the contact early, (less than 10 years) it can cost $800.

So, the question, if my house needs 100,000 btu to heat, would the CR180A be able to do it? I assume I can't run an open system in Ottawa so I need a heat exchanger to separate the two water systems. I'm looking for someone who has done it, who can get me started... I can do most of the work myself, but have not found a good supplier or help locally.

[poop_on_you]

I bought a resale home and my closing date is Aug 25.

Would I have time to do an energy audit, transfer utilities account, buy a tankless water heater, install it and mail in the rebate all in 5 business days?

[Stranger]

I bought a resale home and my closing date is Aug 25.

Would I have time to do an energy audit, transfer utilities account, buy a tankless water heater, install it and mail in the rebate all in 5 business days?

No reason why you couldn't coordinate the first four activities as it's far enough out.

As for the rebate, you'll need a followup audit to have the rebate submitted. You may be able to squeeze this into the 5 day window but there's no real need to rush and you may want to consider doing more retrofits as a result of the initial audit to get an even larger rebate.

[akmeikle]

I have the Navien 210A unit installed and I haven't had any problems with it. I got it installed by Sears for $3000.

I just got my enbridge rebates ($300 for tankless + $100 for new furnace) so now my gas bill is -$400. I won't be paying for gas for a while :)

[kasm]

how long did it take to get the $300 rebate. I submitted my application at the beginning of May and have not seen anything.

[poop_on_you]

No reason why you couldn't coordinate the first four activities as it's far enough out.

As for the rebate, you'll need a followup audit to have the rebate submitted. You may be able to squeeze this into the 5 day window but there's no real need to rush and you may want to consider doing more retrofits as a result of the initial audit to get an even larger rebate.

Cool, thanks for the response.
So I'm assuming it takes just 1 day to get the installation done, and it shouldn't be too hard to book a decent contractor? I'm trying to get the group discount from RFD, but I don't know if he can fit me into his schedule since I'm a little time sensitive.

The Enbridge rebate ends on August 31, but the Eco Energy rebate is 18 months after the audit. So I will need to first do the audit and the installation right away. The Eco Energy rebate can wait.

So here is my plan, let me know if I missed something:
1. Research on tankless water heaters and buy an approved tankless heater before Aug 25
2. Book 1st energy audit on Aug 26
3. Book a contractor on Aug 27
4. Send the form and receipt copies to Enbridge on Aug 27 with fastest delivery option.
5. Do other renovations
6. Get 2nd energy audit

[poop_on_you]

how long did it take to get the $300 rebate. I submitted my application at the beginning of May and have not seen anything.

According to
https://portal-plumprod.cgc.enbridge.com/enbridge/files/coupons_300.pdf

Completed rebate forms must be postmarked on or before September 14, 2009. Please allow 6 to 8 weeks for the on-bill credit.

It's been over 8 weeks for you and if you haven't seen the credit on your bill, you should definitely call them up.

In fact, I would call them right after I sent the rebate application just to make sure they have received it and approved it.

[Stranger]

Cool, thanks for the response.
So I'm assuming it takes just 1 day to get the installation done, and it shouldn't be too hard to book a decent contractor? I'm trying to get the group discount from RFD, but I don't know if he can fit me into his schedule since I'm a little time sensitive.

The Enbridge rebate ends on August 31, but the Eco Energy rebate is 18 months after the audit. So I will need to first do the audit and the installation right away. The Eco Energy rebate can wait.

So here is my plan, let me know if I missed something:
1. Research on tankless water heaters and buy an approved tankless heater before Aug 25
2. Book 1st energy audit on Aug 26
3. Book a contractor on Aug 27
4. Send the form and receipt copies to Enbridge on Aug 27 with fastest delivery option.
5. Do other renovations
6. Get 2nd energy audit

Sounds about right. Don't forget to check out OPA (Ontario Power Authority) rebates if you're considering a furnace or air conditioner replacement as well as your local gas supplier.

For step 4, find out when the install needs to occur and when it needs to be post marked by (see a recent post in this thread). I'm not an Enbridge customer so I never researched those details.

[gravem]

Got my Rinnai tankless system installed yesterday.

I phoned Direct Energy to see what we do about the empty rental tank. It's $75 for them to pick it up... or you can drop it off for free at a designated location. I chose the second option. What kills me is in the rental agreement they go on talking about being penalized for any damage done.... but when I drop it off, the guy there says all the tanks go in the garbage. He just peels the rating plate off and mails that to Direct Energy. He's seen some tanks as young as 6 months old get thrown out.

[Babak]

Great thread guys!

I'm buying a house and taking possession in Aug. and had a few questions. I know from reading the thread that I need to move fast. Make an appt for energy audit and have it installed before end of Aug.

Here's my question. The house I'm buying has a hot water tank so I own it outright. It is in great shape as it is only about 4 years old. How much could I get for it appx? what is the best way to sell it to get max $$$?

My goal is to combine the sale of the existing tank with the rebates and come out about even for the whole switch to tankless. Another option is buying from Home Depot and getting 6 months grace period (by using their credit card).

The other question I had was whether you could include the full cost of the tankless system (unit plus installation) when you go to claim the home renovation tax credit?

Because if you can, then you would get an extra 15% there, obviously.

I'm based around Ottawa so if anyone in the neighbourhood who has done this, feel free to give me a PM!

Cheers

[whodaphucru]

how long did it take to get the $300 rebate. I submitted my application at the beginning of May and have not seen anything.

About a month or so from when I sent it to enbridge. It was applied before they removed the tank rental charge and credited the unused rental time.

My last gas bill was $26 in total, the gas used was only $6! At this time the last couple years it has been about $65 including the tank rental of $19.99 so I am happy with the investment! The enbridge also shows a significant drop in gas used for last month as well.

[pompoco]

Agreed. I don't know who came up with 75%. It's typically 30-50%. 50% if you're converting from an electric tank to a gas tankless. This is based on a unit with 82% efficiency at a 70 degree temperature rise.

Of course, these approximations only apply when you don't increase your hot water usage. Don't expect to save if you're using twice as much hot water as before.

A typical family of 4 will save about $20 a month off the gas bill at the current rate. If there are fewer people in the home you will save more.

Hmmm... so It'll cost me $3k for install and save abou $20 per month...
That takes almost 15 years to pay off. If I'm living in a "hard water zone" (ie. own well) I have a life expectancy of ~10 years or otherwise~20 years.:confused:
I knew it costs to be green but that's just hilarious...:lol:

[Stranger]

Hmmm... so It'll cost me $3k for install and save abou $20 per month...
That takes almost 15 years to pay off. If I'm living in a "hard water zone" (ie. own well) I have a life expectancy of ~10 years or otherwise~20 years.:confused:
I knew it costs to be green but that's just hilarious...:lol:

Mixing my own sourcing for parts, unit and labour as well as a professional for the gas install it cost me around $2400 for a large tankless. I received $850 in rebates (am not an Enbridge customer but did get $100 from my local gas supplier). On top of that, I save $23/mo as I was previously renting. Now re-run your math and you can see why people are doing this. I estimated a break even in less than 5 years given rebates and not paying rental alone. I didn't even factor in gas savings which will make my break even point even better.

[poop_on_you]

Great thread guys!

I'm buying a house and taking possession in Aug. and had a few questions. I know from reading the thread that I need to move fast. Make an appt for energy audit and have it installed before end of Aug.

Here's my question. The house I'm buying has a hot water tank so I own it outright. It is in great shape as it is only about 4 years old. How much could I get for it appx? what is the best way to sell it to get max $$$?

My goal is to combine the sale of the existing tank with the rebates and come out about even for the whole switch to tankless. Another option is buying from Home Depot and getting 6 months grace period (by using their credit card).

The other question I had was whether you could include the full cost of the tankless system (unit plus installation) when you go to claim the home renovation tax credit?

Because if you can, then you would get an extra 15% there, obviously.

I'm based around Ottawa so if anyone in the neighbourhood who has done this, feel free to give me a PM!

Cheers

I don't know if you can get any money for a 4 yr old water tank. From what I've heard, Direct Energy instantly throws away all their rental water tanks even if it's after 1 month of use. Plus, I don't think there are people looking to buy and install a used water tank with no warranty and no license.

Of course the tankless will be eligible for the HRTC, and it will be the total cost including unit+installation.
From the CRA site:
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/sgmnts/hmwnr/hrtc/lgbl-xpns-eng.html
Examples of eligible expenses
# Renovating a kitchen, bathroom, or basement
# Windows and doors
# New carpet or hardwood floors
# New furnace, boiler, woodstove, fireplace, water softener, water heater, or oil tank

Generally, work performed by electricians, plumbers, carpenters, architects, etc. in respect of an eligible expense qualifies.

Also, when is your closing date? Can you post how long it took you to transfer the Enbridge account? I called them before and the rep said it takes up to 1 month to get your account set up. I don't think it takes that long.

[Babak]

Hmmm... yeah, considering that I have a tank bought and paid for (not rental) and that I would have to get a MASSIVE unit for the house 5 rooms!! 3 bathrooms!! I'm leaning towards just keeping the tank for a while at least. The rebates are nice but I still would need to shell out about $1500 on top of them and I don't see a clear payoff for that.

Also, take a look at this article:
http://www.askthebuilder.com/451_Tankless_Water_Heaters.shtml

basically he's saying that you can't get around the laws of thermodynamics. It takes so much energy to increase temp as well, there are important flow issues. The colder the incoming water, the less flow you'll have really. Also, when people know there is 'unlimited' hot water, they use more.

For now I think I'll go with keeping the tank in good shape, maybe adding a secondary anode rod:

http://www.askthebuilder.com/Water_Heater_Anode_Rod.shtml

Haven't called Enbridge yet - on the list for first thing tomorrow morning

poop_on_you: re Enbridge, if needed, they can do it in 3 business days when the lawyer calls them and tells them info on closing date:

https://portal-plumprod.cgc.enbridge.com/portal/server.pt?space=CommunityPage&control=SetCommunity&CommunityID=261

[mjl]

I like this idea but my tank is located in the center of the basement in a large closet. It has a floor drain and the main water line is located here with the meter. I would like it to stay there. The present tank is electric so I have a problem switching to gas. I have gas and its 20feet away. The exhaust is my problem. I have one joist open with a 8"X8" opening. This will require app. 25' of exhaust. Is this do able?

[Stranger]

Hmmm... yeah, considering that I have a tank bought and paid for (not rental) and that I would have to get a MASSIVE unit for the house 5 rooms!! 3 bathrooms!! I'm leaning towards just keeping the tank for a while at least. The rebates are nice but I still would need to shell out about $1500 on top of them and I don't see a clear payoff for that.

Also, take a look at this article:
http://www.askthebuilder.com/451_Tankless_Water_Heaters.shtml

basically he's saying that you can't get around the laws of thermodynamics. It takes so much energy to increase temp as well, there are important flow issues. The colder the incoming water, the less flow you'll have really. Also, when people know there is 'unlimited' hot water, they use more.

For now I think I'll go with keeping the tank in good shape, maybe adding a secondary anode rod:

http://www.askthebuilder.com/Water_Heater_Anode_Rod.shtml

Haven't called Enbridge yet - on the list for first thing tomorrow morning

The unit I picked up and used is a Navien CR-240A. It can do 3 showers at once at a delta T of 77, or worst case scenario (so 114 total if incoming is 40 degrees in the winter). I've found incoming water to be above 60 degrees this summer so it could handle 3 showers plus a few more applications simultaneously right now.

Owning your tank makes it a tougher payback for sure. I looked, year over year, early June to early July 2008 and 2009 and see approximately a $10/mo savings for gas savings. It's the first month when furnace shouldn`t have been on and I'm quite interested in the next cycle. For those with different gas rates (as mine is stable and fairly well priced (Kitchener Utilities)) I went from 71 cubic meters to 59 cubic meters (22 cubic meter delta).

[roger12]

I got tankless in mid June 09 and my first Enbridge bill with entire month on tankless came in last week. Gas savings are less than 5% (compared to same period in 2008) which is really disappointing to me. I expected atleast 20% gas savings based on all the Rinnai brochures.

[poop_on_you]

I like this idea but my tank is located in the center of the basement in a large closet. It has a floor drain and the main water line is located here with the meter. I would like it to stay there. The present tank is electric so I have a problem switching to gas. I have gas and its 20feet away. The exhaust is my problem. I have one joist open with a 8"X8" opening. This will require app. 25' of exhaust. Is this do able?

Mine is in the center as well. The contractor said it'll cost more to extent the pipe. The pipes are $200 for 39 inches. I don't know how much it'll come out exactly in total yet. Still talking to him.

I might not get it if it ends up costing me a lot to get it installed.

[akmeikle]

Hmmm... so It'll cost me $3k for install and save abou $20 per month...
That takes almost 15 years to pay off. If I'm living in a "hard water zone" (ie. own well) I have a life expectancy of ~10 years or otherwise~20 years.:confused:
I knew it costs to be green but that's just hilarious...:lol:

$3000 installed
-$300 rebate from Enbridge Gas
-$750 rebate from Energuide program
-$900 savings from not renting a water heater over 5 years
------
$1050 overall cost

The ROI is now much less (add $300 if you need to do the energuide evaluations)

[albatman]

The unit I picked up and used is a Navien CR-240A. It can do 3 showers at once at a delta T of 77, or worst case scenario (so 114 total if incoming is 40 degrees in the winter). I've found incoming water to be above 60 degrees this summer so it could handle 3 showers plus a few more applications simultaneously right now.

Owning your tank makes it a tougher payback for sure. I looked, year over year, early June to early July 2008 and 2009 and see approximately a $10/mo savings for gas savings. It's the first month when furnace shouldn`t have been on and I'm quite interested in the next cycle. For those with different gas rates (as mine is stable and fairly well priced (Kitchener Utilities)) I went from 71 cubic meters to 59 cubic meters (22 cubic meter delta).

WOW, that 30% savings.... are you sure you had your furnace off June of last year?
People here keep making empty arguments about the savings (or not) , you are the first one to post hard numbers.
Plz let us know your July numbers.

[poop_on_you]

$3000 installed
-$300 rebate from Enbridge Gas
-$750 rebate from Energuide program
-$900 savings from not renting a water heater over 5 years
------
$1050 overall cost

The ROI is now much less (add $300 if you need to do the energuide evaluations)

There's also the HRTC.

Also, it should be the price for buying the old water tank instead of renting for 5 years.

[akmeikle]

There's also the HRTC.

Also, it should be the price for buying the old water tank instead of renting for 5 years.

Ya the numbers I posted was for my specific situation as I was renting a water heater and comparing the cost of maintaining that rental vs buying the tankless.

Also in my situation the HRTC didn't apply because I chewed up that money on a kitchen renovation :/

[Babak]

WOW, that 30% savings.... are you sure you had your furnace off June of last year?
People here keep making empty arguments about the savings (or not) , you are the first one to post hard numbers.
Plz let us know your July numbers.

How is that a 30% saving?

[scoop]

How is that a 30% saving?

OP said 22 cubic meter difference (30%) although it looks like he meant 12 cubic meter (17%)

[albatman]

OP said 22 cubic meter difference (30%) although it looks like he meant 12 cubic meter (17%)
Yes, sorry... should have checked OP math...
17% is a more inline with marketing claims.... but I have been hearing stories that even that number is far from achievable.
Problem is nobody here is giving hard numbers, just empty debates if it is worth it or not.... and the only numbers I seen are the ones from brochures and who knows how they got them.

I would say for those who installed it, give numbers for your savings, then each of us can calculate if it is worthwhile installing or not, as different people have different circumstances (old tank, rental, new home, how long will stay in house...etc.) and what would be economical for some, might not be for others.

[albatman]

Also, it should be the price for buying the old water tank instead of renting for 5 years.

Yes, comparison should be apples to apples, if you buy tankless, you should compare it to buying tank, not renting.

[jjtsl]

I got tankless in mid June 09 and my first Enbridge bill with entire month on tankless came in last week. Gas savings are less than 5% (compared to same period in 2008) which is really disappointing to me. I expected atleast 20% gas savings based on all the Rinnai brochures.

That sucks, especially seeing that you were one of the THW enthusiasts. Now I'm not sure if it's worth my hassle and cost anymore, especially when my furnace room walls are not exterior walls, hence more expensive setup. Thinking about it, buying a regular hot water tank would still qualify for the HRTC, so the payback for tankless is looking less attractive.

[Inno]

Mine is in the center as well. The contractor said it'll cost more to extent the pipe. The pipes are $200 for 39 inches. I don't know how much it'll come out exactly in total yet. Still talking to him.

I might not get it if it ends up costing me a lot to get it installed.

I cancelled as well as my location would have required hundreds of dollars for about 8-10 feet of extra piping.

Too bad this vent piping is so expensive and the current vent pipes from my nearly new gas tank can't be used.

[whodaphucru]

We got only 3 people @ home, we all got different schedules, 1 showers during the morning, 1 in the afternoon and 1 at night, we use cold water for the washing machine and we don't use the dishwasher.

Q: To all those w/personal experiences:
Would it be better to get tankless or regular water tank system?
we currently have an electric water tank, so we're definitely gonna be switching to gas by end of the month.

Would also like to hear REAL LIFE pos./neg. features to having tankless vs tank?
I've read u can't use water saving faucet attachments w/tankless since the sensor does not turn on to allow the hot water to come, I don't think we have those since all of use like high pressure for showers.
&
Also read the tankless requires annual maintenance, need confirmation on this, since it would dip in to the total savings vs a tank system.

Thanks in advance.

I have been using tankless for a while and I have seen no negatives in comparison to tank unit. No issues waiting for water, no cold water sandwiches, no pressure drops, annual maintenance isn't a big deal, plenty of hot water, etc. If you have specific questions please let me know.

I am not sure I buy that you can't use water saving attachments with a tankless unit as the flow rate can be quite low and the unit will still come on to heat the water.

Whichever route you choose, don't rent the unit as you will lose in the long run. Tankless rentals are quite costly at $34.95/ month! I have seen energy savings however without factoring in the cost of the rental tank in the house it would have been hard to justify the investment.

[Stranger]

Yes, sorry... should have checked OP math...
17% is a more inline with marketing claims.... but I have been hearing stories that even that number is far from achievable.
Problem is nobody here is giving hard numbers, just empty debates if it is worth it or not.... and the only numbers I seen are the ones from brochures and who knows how they got them.

I would say for those who installed it, give numbers for your savings, then each of us can calculate if it is worthwhile installing or not, as different people have different circumstances (old tank, rental, new home, how long will stay in house...etc.) and what would be economical for some, might not be for others.

My bad on my 22 cubic meters... the other numbers were accurate. Will post next months and compare to 2008.

[Stranger]

I cancelled as well as my location would have required hundreds of dollars for about 8-10 feet of extra piping.

Too bad this vent piping is so expensive and the current vent pipes from my nearly new gas tank can't be used.

Depending on the tankless heater installed 8-10 feet of piping may not be that bad. Most require stainless steel venting (expensive). The Navien I installed can use PVC venting (S636) which is much cheaper than stainless steel.

[Inno]

Depending on the tankless heater installed 8-10 feet of piping may not be that bad. Most require stainless steel venting (expensive). The Navien I installed can use PVC venting (S636) which is much cheaper than stainless steel.

The units that were available via the Group Buy all required the very expensive vent pipes, so I had no choice but to cancel. Too bad, I have a small electric tankless at my cottage and am very happy with it.

[Eyeman]

We got only 3 people @ home, we all got different schedules, 1 showers during the morning, 1 in the afternoon and 1 at night, we use cold water for the washing machine and we don't use the dishwasher.

Q: To all those w/personal experiences:
Would it be better to get tankless or regular water tank system?
we currently have an electric water tank, so we're definitely gonna be switching to gas by end of the month.

Would also like to hear REAL LIFE pos./neg. features to having tankless vs tank?
I've read u can't use water saving faucet attachments w/tankless since the sensor does not turn on to allow the hot water to come, I don't think we have those since all of use like high pressure for showers.
&
Also read the tankless requires annual maintenance, need confirmation on this, since it would dip in to the total savings vs a tank system.

Thanks in advance.

1. If anything goes wrong, repairs cost a fortune. I should say *when* something goes wrong. It is a complicated and still immature technology. Better to wait for a few years to see how it goes. The Enbridge rep also told me that at this point, there are very few repairmen available so you might have a long wait to fix problems.

2. The savings will shrink drastically when metered electricity becomes the norm. Rates will be much higher during during the day than at night. Tankless units use huge amount of electricity when rhey do operate . Since people don't take showers in the middle of the night, you would be using lots of electricity at peak rates ro raise the water temp from what's piped in to hot. In contrast, a normal water heater evens out the cost of day and night.

3. If you don't have a good place for it, they charge you big bucks for installation.

[Stranger]

Easy there

1. If anything goes wrong, repairs cost a fortune. I should say *when* something goes wrong. It is a complicated and still immature technology. Better to wait for a few years to see how it goes. The Enbridge rep also told me that at this point, there are very few repairmen available so you might have a long wait to fix problems.

Tankless is hardly an immature technology. It's been widely used worldwide for many decades. It's only gaining in popularity in North America recently but the technology is certainly sound.

2. The savings will shrink drastically when metered electricity becomes the norm. Rates will be much higher during during the day than at night. Tankless units use huge amount of electricity when rhey do operate . Since people don't take showers in the middle of the night, you would be using lots of electricity at peak rates ro raise the water temp from what's piped in to hot. In contrast, a normal water heater evens out the cost of day and night.

If you're using a gas tankless changes in electricity pricing won't have an impact as the units draw very little power (only enough for some electronics). I'm not sure if your claim holds water for electric tankless heaters vs. electric tanked heaters. Either way you're using electricity to heat water when it's used during the day.

3. If you don't have a good place for it, they charge you big bucks for installation.

See my other posts. Stainless steel venting is expensive especially if you have to run it a long way but there are units that can use PVC. Any installation that runs a long way without good access. So if you've got good access to install and are using PVC installation shouldn't be that expensive.

[akmeikle]

I submitted my enbridge rebate for my furnace and after 4 weeks I never heard anything. I called enbridge to verify that they at least received the rebate and the lady on the phone gave me a fax number to resend everything.

I faxed both my furnace rebate and my tankless water heater application and within 2 weeks I had a $400 credit on my gas bill.

[George W. Bush]

LOL - some of you need to get educated on tankless water heaters. Europe has been using them for many, many, many, many years now... Canada/US is barely waking up now... :)

"Immature" and "new" technology - LOL... :) They have been used in many countries outside North America for ages...

These puppies are made in Japan - they use them as well.

With these, you finally break free from the shackles of "renting" or owning old tank based heaters that take up space, make noises, and consume energy and money (ie. it puts your money in someone else's pockets).

Wow, the level of ignorance, and absurdity and "information" some of you display is mind boggling! :)

[yjzeng]

I submitted my enbridge rebate for my furnace and after 4 weeks I never heard anything. I called enbridge to verify that they at least received the rebate and the lady on the phone gave me a fax number to resend everything.

I faxed both my furnace rebate and my tankless water heater application and within 2 weeks I had a $400 credit on my gas bill.

Would you mind to share the fax number is or PM me? I'd like to submit mine,too.

Jim

[Stranger]

I'd like to hear more from people that have actually used/owned BOTH gas tank/tankless systems in canada.

I don't want to know more general info on how tankless is used worldwide.

general eg. diesel fuel used in north america and europe is not exactly the same thing.

So far from what I've read, tankless does not save u much $ on gas.

All u do seem to save is space, which I don't give 2 $hits about.

Tankless doesn't seem to be designed to be efficient in colder climates.
Some do make noise if there is a fan for the exhaust vent.

U don't need to rent a reg. tank either.

Need more...

I've had both (tankless since May).

While I can't comment on specific experience when it's below 0 (yet) I can tell you that you need to size your tankless heater based on ground source water temperature and maximum number of concurrent applications. If you do that there's no issue in colder climates.

As for the exhaust fan, mine is pretty quite. It's in my furnace room and with the door closed it is never heard.

[donye]

One guy came to my house with a flyer about furnace and tankless water heater.He said, he from a company name " eco energy home services inc.".
His Name Ben Zheng ( home services specialist)

Their showroom 500 Alden Rd ,Unit 7 ,markham.

I made a deal with him.Normaly, i don't trust the people who knock my door.


1 GMV950704CX 95% Goodman high-efficence furnace with d/c motor variable speed $3120

1 CR-210 Navien Tankless Water Heater $2800

1 Humidifer Honeywell $300


subtotal $6220
GST $311
Total $ 6531
Rabate about $3500

Is good deal or he cheated me?

Energy audit will visit wednesday at 9 am .$300 , Rebate $150

Technician will install furnace , tankless water heater , humidifier wednesday at 10 am. about 8 hours work

[Stranger]

One guy came to my house with a flyer about furnace and tankless water heater.He said, he from a company name " eco energy home services inc.".
His Name Ben Zheng ( home services specialist)

Their showroom 500 Alden Rd ,Unit 7 ,markham.

I made a deal with him.Normaly, i don't trust the people who knock my door.


1 GMV950704CX 95% Goodman high-efficence furnace with d/c motor variable speed $3120

1 CR-210 Navien Tankless Water Heater $2800

1 Humidifer Honeywell $300


subtotal $6220
GST $311
Total $ 6531
Rabate about $3500

Is good deal or he cheated me?

Energy audit will visit wednesday at 9 am .$300 , Rebate $150

Tecnician will install furnace , tankless water heater , humidifier wednesday at 10 am. about 8 hours work

Use http://www.cozyworld.ca as a baseline for the price of the Goodman. I got one installed with a Goodman AC for $6k taxes in so it looks reasonable (slightly more than the Cozy World site). The Cozy World site also helps with the rebates you can apply for (get your Eco Energy rebates on both and your OPA rebates on the furnace). You may also be eligable for rebates on one, or both, units from your gas supplier.

From the research I did, $2800 for a tankless is a decent price (most people were north of $3k for probably smaller units). Make sure the Navien is the -A model (built in recirculation which also has a mini-buffer tank to reduce the minimum water draw and cold water sandwich effect). Is the CR-210 big enough for you? I found it to cost approximately $180 more to move up to the CR-240 from the CR-210. When you put that across even the warranty period of the unit it's maybe $1.50/month so it's not worth saving $180 if there's any chance it'll be undersized.

You'll be doing a delta t of 77 degrees in the winter (ground source water of near 40 degrees) so read the GPM and assume 2.5gpm for your showers and somewhat less for other applications (taps, washer, etc.). This will help too http://www.navienamerica.com/product/sizing.aspx?skin=sizing

Oh, and with your Goodman, make sure you register it online soon after install. It'll double your parts warranty (from 5 to 10 years) and give you lifetime on the heat exchanger (from 10 years).

[Stranger]

WOW, that 30% savings.... are you sure you had your furnace off June of last year?
People here keep making empty arguments about the savings (or not) , you are the first one to post hard numbers.
Plz let us know your July numbers.

Ok,

June 2008 - 71 cubic meters
June 2009 - 59 cubic meters

July 2008 - 59 cubic meters
July 2009 - 51 cubic meters

Caveats - we have a few appliances using gas such as kitchen stove and bbq. The furnace did not run in July this year or last, and likely didn't run in June this year or last. We did get a new bbq this summer (90k BTU) and my wife bbqs a lot (almost every day). The old bbq was probably 60k or 70k BTU and she probably didn't use it quite as often last summer (still regularly though). So the delta in the numbers should be a minimum as I expect we're doing a bit better than that but it's really difficult to accurately quantify.

[whodaphucru]

I'd like to hear more from people that have actually used/owned BOTH gas tank/tankless systems in canada.

I don't want to know more general info on how tankless is used worldwide.

general eg. diesel fuel used in north america and europe is not exactly the same thing.

So far from what I've read, tankless does not save u much $ on gas.

All u do seem to save is space, which I don't give 2 $hits about.

Tankless doesn't seem to be designed to be efficient in colder climates.
Some do make noise if there is a fan for the exhaust vent.

U don't need to rent a reg. tank either.

Need more...

Gas Usage:

May 2008 - 141
May 2009 - 82

June 2008 - 43
June 2009 - 31

July 2008 - 76
July 2009 - 35

May isn't perfect since the furnace would have occasionally kicked on in both cases but June and July show a decrease in gas usage.

I have the Navien 240A and it is very quiet. This unit had one of the best gpm outputs even when looking at raising the temperature almost 80 degrees (winter conditions). I am not confident that the Rinnai or the Navien 210A will have enough output in the winter months based on the flow curves.

To be honest if I hadn't thrown in the rental cost into the pay back calulation there would not have been sufficient payback to justify the investment.

[Stranger]

Gas Usage:

May 2008 - 141
May 2009 - 82

June 2008 - 43
June 2009 - 31

July 2008 - 76
July 2009 - 35

May isn't perfect since the furnace would have occasionally kicked on in both cases but June and July show a decrease in gas usage.

I have the Navien 240A and it is very quiet. This unit had one of the best gpm outputs even when looking at raising the temperature almost 80 degrees (winter conditions). I am not confident that the Rinnai or the Navien 210A will have enough output in the winter months based on the flow curves.

To be honest if I hadn't thrown in the rental cost into the pay back calulation there would not have been sufficient payback to justify the investment.

76 to 35 is a significant delta but 76 looks a bit strange based on your June year over year numbers. Irrespective June looks normal and what people should expect.

Payback will be hard based on decreased gas usage alone with today's rates.

[whodaphucru]

76 to 35 is a significant delta but 76 looks a bit strange based on your June year over year numbers. Irrespective June looks normal and what people should expect.

Payback will be hard based on decreased gas usage alone with today's rates.

I should have mentioned June numbers were estimates and july were meter reads in both years so you need add june & july up and compare so:

June & July 2008 - 119
June & July 2009 - 66

While there are some variables that can influence this delta I am generally happy with the energgy savings as I truly wasn't expecting more than 10% savings if any.

[trenton1776]

I'm going to be using Mr. Tankless for the Navien CR 210.
Total cost is $2700 including installation and removal of the old tank.

Breakdown:
Cost: 2700
- 300 Enbridge credit
- 750 Home Energy audit credit (I have already done the first audit for other reno projects:

Net cost: $1650

Two showers, rarely used simultaneously.

I'm currently paying $13/month for the old tank rental. I'm assuming the new unit will save me at least 15-20 per month so essentially I'll be saving about $30 per month which means it'll pay for itself in ~4.5 years. Plus the added storage room will actually be quite useful (luggage and stuff) in our not that large home.

Makes sense for me.....

[Inno]

I'm going to be using Mr. Tankless for the Navien CR 210.
Total cost is $2700 including installation and removal of the old tank.

Breakdown:
Cost: 2700
- 300 Enbridge credit
- 750 Home Energy audit credit (I have already done the first audit for other reno projects:

Net cost: $1650

Two showers, rarely used simultaneously.

I'm currently paying $13/month for the old tank rental. I'm assuming the new unit will save me at least 15-20 per month so essentially I'll be saving about $30 per month which means it'll pay for itself in ~4.5 years. Plus the added storage room will actually be quite useful (luggage and stuff) in our not that large home.

Makes sense for me.....


What is the capacity of this model compared to the one from the Group Buy? What about venting? Does this one need the super-expensive pipes? Warranty?

Where are you located?

[trenton1776]

What is the capacity of this model compared to the one from the Group Buy? What about venting? Does this one need the super-expensive pipes? Warranty?

Where are you located?

I'm not sure about the Group Buy model.

A Mr Tankless rep came to my house for a free assessment. I assume if there was any additional piping needs he would have said so. The quote included all installation. It will be vented right through a new hole in the outside wall.

Warranty is for 12 years. I live in North Toronto.

[whodaphucru]

What is the capacity of this model compared to the one from the Group Buy? What about venting? Does this one need the super-expensive pipes? Warranty?

Where are you located?

I would get the navien 240A not 210A as the extra capacity will be good in the winter. The venting is white PVC not the stainless steel needed by many of the tankless units.

[hoser68]

Has anybody in the Calgary area had the Navien 210A or 240A quoted or installed? I've obtained two quotes for about $4700 installed which seems pretty steep. If anyone has had a lower quote in Calgary, please advise how much and which company.