Police Officers have too much leverage to plainly accuse helpless citizens?

[wplai]

I hope someone here could help me with the following incident which I ran into earlier today.

Basically the day started with me driving back from Toronto to Ottawa on a fine sunny afternoon on Valentine’s Day. While travelling on 416 back to Ottawa, I saw 2 police officer cars parked on the roadside probably attending to one car in front. I and a whole bunch of other cars passed them. Not long after, one police officer left the scene and caught up with the rest of the traffic and started flashing to a car which was two cars ahead of me on the right lane. (Police officer was on the passing lane)

Suddenly the minivan in front of me slowed down quite significantly (and even stepped on the brakes), so I decided to move over to the left lane to pass him, for I was not speeding anyway, I (& everyone else) was travelling at < 100km/h at this point. When I moved to the left lane, I am now behind the police car. It was a relatively good distance (maybe 3-4 cars distance since he was flashing to one car on the right). I thought he was flashing to the car in front, and my wife and I noticed he was also holding on to his walkie-talkie and talking away while he was driving. The police officer probably didn’t notice that his speed has also dropped quite significantly as others on the right lane was slowing down to his speed of 80-90km/h. Naturally, while I am behind him, I have to adjust to his speed as well.

Suddenly, the police officer pulled into the warning track on the left, and let me pass him, which I did, and then he started to flash me to stop. This is the part where I didn’t understand and get upset on. After we stopped, he walked up to us and said that I was following him too closely (which I argue I didn’t, I was just adjusting to his speed, as he probably didn’t notice while talking away in his walkie-talkie)

While talking to the police officer, I tried to use a polite manner, telling him that I was just adjusting to his speed while keeping a safe distance and apologized if he thinks I was still following him too closely. The police officer asked me why I am talking to him like a ‘friend’, saying that he is a police officer and not his friend, I feel his “ego” in the conversation and felt like we were being intimated and shouldn’t talk to him like we talk to any other citizens. I feel really upset that police officers treat themselves as superior and showed no mercy to citizens and don’t even like citizens like us to “be-friend” them. He stopped listening to my explanation and took my driver’s license to write up the ticket for “following too closely” (Fine $110 – 4 demerit points). Appeal court is in Brockville.

In this incident, I would like to understand

1. Is there any chance for me to fight the case? Is it worth my time to travel to Brockville? The officer just plainly accused me of following too closely (even though me and my wife didn’t agree at all - it was at least a 4 car distance ~ 2 seconds distance and he probably just didn’t like to have me behind him in the passing lane. I was just doing my normal driving to pass a slow car on the right) and he probably didn’t realize that while he was chatting away in his walkie-talkie, his speed slowed down too, causing me constantly have to adjust to his speed.

2. How do we address the issue where police officers have too much leverage on accusing helpless citizens who has no intention to break the law, which in this case, he even told me not to talk to him like a friend, and he could just lay any claim against me.

[GoiNGPoSTaL]

I hope someone here could help me with the following incident which I ran into earlier today.

Basically the day started with me driving back from Toronto to Ottawa on a fine sunny afternoon on Valentine’s Day. While travelling on 416 back to Ottawa, I saw 2 police officer cars parked on the roadside probably attending to one car in front. I and a whole bunch of other cars passed them. Not long after, one police officer left the scene and caught up with the rest of the traffic and started flashing to a car which was two cars ahead of me on the right lane. (Police officer was on the passing lane)

Suddenly the minivan in front of me slowed down quite significantly (and even stepped on the brakes), so I decided to move over to the left lane to pass him, for I was not speeding anyway, I (& everyone else) was travelling at < 100km/h at this point. When I moved to the left lane, I am now behind the police car. It was a relatively good distance (maybe 3-4 cars distance since he was flashing to one car on the right). I thought he was flashing to the car in front, and my wife and I noticed he was also holding on to his walkie-talkie and talking away while he was driving. The police officer probably didn’t notice that his speed has also dropped quite significantly as others on the right lane was slowing down to his speed of 80-90km/h. Naturally, while I am behind him, I have to adjust to his speed as well.

Suddenly, the police officer pulled into the warning track on the left, and let me pass him, which I did, and then he started to flash me to stop. This is the part where I didn’t understand and get upset on. After we stopped, he walked up to us and said that I was following him too closely (which I argue I didn’t, I was just adjusting to his speed, as he probably didn’t notice while talking away in his walkie-talkie)

While talking to the police officer, I tried to use a polite manner, telling him that I was just adjusting to his speed while keeping a safe distance and apologized if he thinks I was still following him too closely. The police officer asked me why I am talking to him like a ‘friend’, saying that he is a police officer and not his friend, I feel his “ego” in the conversation and felt like we were being intimated and shouldn’t talk to him like we talk to any other citizens. I feel really upset that police officers treat themselves as superior and showed no mercy to citizens and don’t even like citizens like us to “be-friend” them. He stopped listening to my explanation and took my driver’s license to write up the ticket for “following too closely” (Fine $110 – 4 demerit points). Appeal court is in Brockville.

In this incident, I would like to understand

1. Is there any chance for me to fight the case? Is it worth my time to travel to Brockville? The officer just plainly accused me of following too closely (even though me and my wife didn’t agree at all - it was at least a 4 car distance ~ 2 seconds distance and he probably just didn’t like to have me behind him in the passing lane. I was just doing my normal driving to pass a slow car on the right) and he probably didn’t realize that while he was chatting away in his walkie-talkie, his speed slowed down too, causing me constantly have to adjust to his speed.

2. How do we address the issue where police officers have too much leverage on accusing helpless citizens who has no intention to break the law, which in this case, he even told me not to talk to him like a friend, and he could just lay any claim against me.

If the car in front of you "slowed down quite significantly" and even had to use the brakes, what made you think changing lanes to the same lane as the police car with its cherries on and following them was a good idea in the first place?

[IntegrationByParts]

1. Yes, take it to court. You always have a chance.

2. You can't, really. There's no point arguing with cops, just take them to court. While there are many good cops out there, there are many *******s as well. The cops who are on power-trips, and are so self-righteous in their actions (some of whom you'll see breaking the very same laws they condemn; e.g. drinking and driving, speeding, beating up innocent citizens). These cops often try to intimidate the average citizen, and often times in doing so, will threaten their rights (sometimes without the individual knowing). The best way to handle it is to stay calm and understand this is just the make up of society (good people and bad people). When bad people get a hold of a position of authority like a police officer, problems ensue.

Whatever you do, when dealing with police, always be aware of your rights. Never put yourself in a vulnerable position, and if the officer tries to coerce you into doing something you don't have to, get his badge number.

[ChrisBa]

not to be an ass but 4-5 car distance on a highway is not enough

[wplai]

wasn't trying to go faster in particular, just trying to get into an open lane that could avoid following a minivan that was slowing down. i didn't even accelerate out to the passing lane.

[kleptodathief]

take it to court..i bet the p0p0 won't even SHOW UP but its gonna waste ur time/ 1 day off work,etc....chalk it up as life aint fair...next time NEVER tail a p0p0, whenever i c one i make sure i stay FAR FAR away lulz...strangely, i don't get harrassed by p0p0s anymore at nitetime, i know they slow down and take my plates when im around them but they NEVER STOP ME now :D

[Emancipated]

From your description I would say you were exhibiting rash and unsafe behavior. To me when a cruiser is coming up behind with his cherries on, you are suppose to let him pass until he's well and clear before you should even resume your way. Definitely too close for comfort, imo. I wouldn't even be in the same lane as the cop because you know he's pulling someone over so they will eventually slow down and need to manuever to the side/run off road and with a car behind, that's just unsafe.


take it to court..i bet the p0p0 won't even SHOW UP but its gonna waste ur time/ 1 day off work,etc....chalk it up as life aint fair...next time NEVER tail a p0p0, whenever i c one i make sure i stay FAR FAR away lulz...strangely, i don't get harrassed by p0p0s anymore at nitetime, i know they slow down and take my plates when im around them but they NEVER STOP ME now :D

Must be a reason why they do that. :lol:

[jp06]

take it to court..i bet the p0p0 won't even SHOW UP but its gonna waste ur time/ 1 day off work,etc....chalk it up as life aint fair...next time NEVER tail a p0p0, whenever i c one i make sure i stay FAR FAR away lulz...strangely, i don't get harrassed by p0p0s anymore at nitetime, i know they slow down and take my plates when im around them but they NEVER STOP ME now :D

i bet you he WILL show up because they get a day off work AND get paid to show up in court. And the majority of the population in that area that the OP was traveling through is WHITE (I'm not turning this into a racial thread, but its a fact). I'm assuming the OP is asian (judging by his username) and if you're anything other than WHITE out there, you're going to be mistreated by those pigs. Anywhere east of PICKERING upto CORNWALL, you will get cocky power-tripping cops. But as for the ticket itself, it is wrong to be following 4-5 car lengths behind a police car with cherries on. That's like following an Ambulance/Firetruck 4-5 car lengths with its sirens and flashers on... that's too close. Isn't the rule, stay back 150m?

[monty613]

OP I think you're at fault here.

:arrowd:


http://www.mississauga.ca/file/COM/Safety_Tips.pdf

It is the law that a motorist who sees or hears
an emergency vehicle must clear the way. When a
police, fire or ambulance vehicle is approaching from
either direction, with lights flashing or siren on, motorists
are required to pull to the right, and if possible, stop. This is
especially important during peak traffic times. Motorists must
yield to an emergency vehicle at intersections. It is illegal to
follow within 150 m (approximately 492 feet) of a fire vehicle or
ambulance responding to a call. Failing to pull over and stop
for an approaching emergency vehicle can result in a substantial
fine and demerit points.

Enforcing the law and providing emergency assistance
often require emergency vehicles to park in a lane or
on the shoulder of a road or highway. To increase safety,
Ontario's Highway Traffic Act now requires motorists
when approaching a police, fire or ambulance vehicle
stopped with its red lights flashing in the same direction
of travel, either in a lane or on the shoulder of a road
or highway, to slow down and pass with caution. If
the road has two or more lanes, the motorist must
move over into another lane, if it can be done safely.
Failing to do so can result in substantial fines, demerit
points, drivers license suspension and possible jail time.

[hightech]

+1 to what the above poster said.

You have to be at least 150 metres if not more away from an emergency vehicle (police, ambulance, fire). If you were less then that, then the cop is correct to charge you for following to closely. Under your own admission, you said that you were "...even though me and my wife didn’t agree at all - it was at least a 4 car distance ~ 2 seconds distance ". Lets say that an average car is about 4 metres long (a huge car), that would mean that you need to be about 37 car lengths away from the car.

If you say you were at least 4 car lengths, that is pretty close to the police cruiser.

Also, if the police cruiser was in the passing lane, why don't you just slow down with the rest of the cars and then let the emergency vehicles pass? If someone applies the brakes in front of you and you can't slow in time, it means you are following too closely.

to quote from that pdf link:

It is the law that a motorist who sees or hears an emergency vehicle must clear the way. When a police, fire or ambulance vehicle is approaching from either direction, with lights flashing or siren on, motorists are required to pull to the right, and if possible, stop. This is especially important during peak traffic times. Motorists must yield to an emergency vehicle at intersections. It is illegal to follow within 150 m (approximately 492 feet) of a fire vehicle or ambulance responding to a call. Failing to pull over and stop for an approaching emergency vehicle can result in a substantial fine and demerit points.

[bubble.tea]

consider the costs of such a ticket on your record having on your increased insurance rates over the next 3 years. If driving to Brockville and all that incurred last wages, time, effort whatever isn't worth avoiding it sticking, then chalk it up as a lesson. If not., fight it. If anything reduce it to the same fine monetarily but no demerits.

Check out early resolution, but I don't think those guys can do anything about demerits.

So to hear you clearly, your only choice was to either swerve into the shoulder lane OR into the passing lane following the police cruiser with attitude-is-I Officer at the helm?

[stevethewheel]

If you thought that the police officer was trying to pull over the car in front him, then you should not have stayed behind him.

I understand that you moved over in the first place because the minivan in front of you slowed down suddenly. You should have moved back over as soon as you could.

It sounds like your story to the police officer seemed a little long-winded to him. I wasn't there, but I think you did the right thing to be polite. Once he makes it clear he is not going to change his mind then it is a good idea to talk less, and listen more.

And for sure, always leave LOTS of space when following a police car, even if he's not pulling someone over.

[Blunt]

So, the OP actively pulled behind the police cruiser, following him at 80km/h while only remaining 4 car lengths behind him.
Heck, it sounds like you where chasing the cop car.

It does sound like some idiotic driver there.

Just stupid driving there. If the cop car was already trying to pull someone over and he decides to pulls you over instead, you must of did something really stupid.

[pierrefleur]

pigs........

[Hunter316]

If the cop did not have his lights on you would not be getting a ticket now but as soon as the lights go on you are required to give significantly greater distance that you would in normal traffic situations. This is for your own protection as well as the officers and every other person on the road since there is not telling what the person who is being followed will do.

[voodoo401]

pigs........

Why U calling the OP a pig?

[pierrefleur]

Why U calling the OP a pig?

not OP, but OPP or COPS. :D

[bobby5]

If you can see the dude chatting on his radio, you are following too closely :(


Some time ago, a cruiser was catching up and tailgating a car on a 401 middle lane, presumably checking the plate, while me and another car were on the slow lane. Then the cherries was turned on, the cruiser and car in front slowed down and tried to get to the shoulder, me and the car in front slowed down and just passed them on the left.

[GateGuardian]

You can take it to court if you want, but here's a simply suggestion. If you seen an emergency vehicle flashing it sirens, slow down and move to the right. If they're not looking for you, they're just pass buy. You do this for Firetrucks and ambulances. it should be no exception for police cruisers. Also, never assume anything because ASSUME makes ASS out of U and ME :cheesygri:cheesygri:cheesygri (yes I know, lame)

[KorruptioN]

pigs........

Why U calling the OP a pig?

not OP, but OPP or COPS. :D

Armchair critics are pigs too.

[Birdman]

If it's your word against the cop's, (unless you have physical evidence) you will lose. The judge will take his side. Been there done that.

My advice would be to talk to excoppers or points, one of those ticket fighting services. They will give you a free consultation, and some of them won't charge you if they're unsuccessful.

The big issue here is the demerit points. Some insurance companies will ding you right away, one of the agencies may be able to get it down to a fine only.

[Chr1s]

1. Yes, take it to court. You always have a chance.

2. You can't, really. There's no point arguing with cops, just take them to court. While there are many good cops out there, there are many *******s as well. The cops who are on power-trips, and are so self-righteous in their actions (some of whom you'll see breaking the very same laws they condemn; e.g. drinking and driving, speeding, beating up innocent citizens). These cops often try to intimidate the average citizen, and often times in doing so, will threaten their rights (sometimes without the individual knowing). The best way to handle it is to stay calm and understand this is just the make up of society (good people and bad people). When bad people get a hold of a position of authority like a police officer, problems ensue.

Whatever you do, when dealing with police, always be aware of your rights. Never put yourself in a vulnerable position, and if the officer tries to coerce you into doing something you don't have to, get his badge number.

OP I think you're at fault here.

:arrowd:

You can take it to court if you want, but here's a simply suggestion. If you seen an emergency vehicle flashing it sirens, slow down and move to the right. If they're not looking for you, they're just pass buy. You do this for Firetrucks and ambulances. it should be no exception for police cruisers. Also, never assume anything because ASSUME makes ASS out of U and ME :cheesygri:cheesygri:cheesygri (yes I know, lame)

You were following an emergency vehicle with lights on too close. 4-6 car lengths (2-3 seconds) doesn't cut it in these cases. Yes, you were following too close as posted above (distance required).

Too many people forget these things, and I see it all the time in the city; some dummies even tail fire trucks so the get an edge in avoiding traffic. :mad: Obviously, not what you were doing? Here again, that is the same type of ticket.

One other related point. If that cop did pull over another car onto the shoulder, and you were still in the right lane without slowing down, or passing into the next lane over (best course of action if safe to do so), that too is an offense.


It is your right to take it to court if you so choose.
Good Luck.

[rfdnewbie999]

Here was the situation (clarified):

- The cop didn't have start his emergency lights when he passed the cars on the left, just driving on the left lane like any other car, at least not a while until I switched lanes - so definitely not 'chasing' the cop car.
- have been slowing down ever since he started to flash in front, however, needed time to slow down and to leave a gap in front.
- The gap was prob around 100m - not sure how many cars that would be


Any good recommendations on which Traffic Ticket lawyers to use?

[belowzeros]

OP not to be an ass but 3-4 car lengths is not a safe highway follow distance no matter how good a driver you are, never mind following a cruiser like that with cherries on. He was probably trying to ticket someone who whizzed by them while they did the traffic stop back on the shoulder where you all should have slowed down and moved away from them to another lane.

the ticket sounds good =/ hopefully he doesn't show up in court otherwise you might be cooked.

[nsx]

PM ASAP as of which account you want to keep.

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