Is it possible to do this in court?

[_protege_]

I got a speeding ticket this past July 2008, 10 over, reduced, no demerit points. About a $45 fine. These are very difficult to fight since it is a reduced ticket.

My plan: Go to court, and if cop doesn't show up, great. If she shows up, I plead guilty before the trial starts and pay the fine.

Is this possible?

[MS MSP]

yes, but you will have to pay court fees as well.

Cops are paid to be in court, all their tickets are scheduled for the same day.

The cop will be there 98% of the time.

[Jon Lai]

No demerit points, fine already reduced.. just pay the damn thing.

[_protege_]

yes, but you will have to pay court fees as well.

Cops are paid to be in court, all their tickets are scheduled for the same day.

The cop will be there 98% of the time.


Don't have my ticket with me, but does the ticket indicate how much court fees are?

[_protege_]

No demerit points, fine already reduced.. just pay the damn thing.

Any chance I have I'll take, to get rid of this ticket.

[camber]

Insurance doesn't care about points, they care about convictions.

I haven't heard of a reduced ticket being returned back to the original charge. However, it is possible but IMO very unlikely.

I've heard of ways of getting court dates rescheduled because you didn't recieve full disclosure. Something about not sending disclosure through registered mail;)

[_protege_]

Insurance doesn't care about points, they care about convictions.

I haven't heard of a reduced ticket being returned back to the original charge. However, it is possible but IMO very unlikely.

I've heard of ways of getting court dates rescheduled because you didn't recieve full disclosure. Something about not sending disclosure through registered mail;)


I've talked to a few paralegals. They all told me that it's not worth fighting, and to just pay the fine. If it's fought, the prosecutor will fight for the original charge.

[camber]

I've talked to a few paralegals. They all told me that it's not worth fighting, and to just pay the fine. If it's fought, the prosecutor will fight for the original charge.

Which paralegals?

I've never seen or heard that happen before.


You have to understand that most paralegals are in it to make a quick buck(which is usually just a quick reduction, to be honest most of them have no interest in winning). In your instance they would actually have to fight because they have no choice:lol:

Contact Redline: http://charged.ca/

If you want an honest opinion.

[camber]

read some of their previous cases.

One of them a person was caught for speeding in Toronto. However, it was found that Toronto did not pass a by law to justify the posted 30 km/h limit. The ticket was tossed!

[Narci]

You have to understand that most paralegals are in it to make a quick buck(which is usually just a quick reduction, to be honest most of them have no interest in winning). In your instance they would actually have to fight because they have no choice:lol:


How is the paralegal making 'a quick buck' if they told him to not fight it and pay the fine?

If they wanted to make a 'quick buck' they would have told him he would have a chance to win and take on his case.

I've talked to a few paralegals. They all told me that it's not worth fighting, and to just pay the fine. If it's fought, the prosecutor will fight for the original charge.

[Jon Lai]

Which paralegals?

I've never seen or heard that happen before.


You have to understand that most paralegals are in it to make a quick buck(which is usually just a quick reduction, to be honest most of them have no interest in winning). In your instance they would actually have to fight because they have no choice:lol:

Contact Redline: http://charged.ca/

If you want an honest opinion.

What? Only reason why tickets are reduces is so that you won't fight them. If and when you fight the ticket the fine will be for the maximum amount for your conviction. It has always been this way.

OP: Sometimes you shouldn't ask for so much. $45 is a small price to pay for a lesson learnt.

[Friday5PM]

I've talked to a few paralegals. They all told me that it's not worth fighting, and to just pay the fine. If it's fought, the prosecutor will fight for the original charge.

This is true, they can

[_protege_]

What? Only reason why tickets are reduces is so that you won't fight them. If and when you fight the ticket the fine will be for the maximum amount for your conviction. It has always been this way.

OP: Sometimes you shouldn't ask for so much. $45 is a small price to pay for a lesson learnt.

Yes, $45 is a small price, but a conviction isn't that small for insurance.

[Friday5PM]

I think you know what to do already, schedule court date and when you attend the courtroom, before registering ask if the officer is here, if he is then plead guilty don't fight it.

[_protege_]

I think you know what to do already, schedule court date and when you attend the courtroom, before registering ask if the officer is here, if he is then plead guilty don't fight it.

Yeah, that's what I'm gonna ultimately do. Im thinking I might do that disclosure process posted in another thread to increase my chances.

You guys think this is still legit, as the guy got banned?

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=563044&highlight=disclosure

[camber]

How is the paralegal making 'a quick buck' if they told him to not fight it and pay the fine?

If they wanted to make a 'quick buck' they would have told him he would have a chance to win and take on his case.


No..No....

Have you ever seen how these people advertise?

They advertise they winning records as even including reductions, in this instance, because they can't get a simple negoitate with the crown to reduce the fines/points. They would actaully have more then 3 mins of work(God forbid they have to make an apperance before the JP!) to make their money, if they wanted to keep their "winning" record;)

Now, if the paralegal said they knew the police officer and they usually dot their i's and cross their t's then I would say you're SOL.

[camber]

What? Only reason why tickets are reduces is so that you won't fight them. If and when you fight the ticket the fine will be for the maximum amount for your conviction. It has always been this way.

OP: Sometimes you shouldn't ask for so much. $45 is a small price to pay for a lesson learnt.

Have you ever seen this happened or heard of this happening?

I haven't...

You can get hit by lighting but doesn't mean that you will get hit. Also, no one said they were guilty;)

IIRC, they charge can be amended, if the trial is in less than 6 months from the day of the charge.

[camber]

Yeah, that's what I'm gonna ultimately do. Im thinking I might do that disclosure process posted in another thread to increase my chances.

You guys think this is still legit, as the guy got banned?

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=563044&highlight=disclosure

That's what I was refering too. FWIW, if you google around, you'll see other people attest to this working.

It's a simple way of not having the police officer show up, because when the case is rescheduled, it won't be on one of their court days.

[_protege_]

Thank you for all the help/advice guys.

[e909]

Your insurance isn't going to double over a 10km/hr over ticket.... I strongly doubt it will even go up.

$45? I can't believe you're going to waste time over that. Just pay it.

[concou]

Your insurance isn't going to double over a 10km/hr over ticket.... I strongly doubt it will even go up.



An insurance expert may want to chime in here!:confused:

[Nikita]

yes, but you will have to pay court fees as well.

Cops are paid to be in court, all their tickets are scheduled for the same day.

The cop will be there 98% of the time.

There are no court fees, there's a victim surcharge added to the amount of the ticket, it's a percentage, I don't recall what it is but it's minimal.

I've talked to a few paralegals. They all told me that it's not worth fighting, and to just pay the fine. If it's fought, the prosecutor will fight for the original charge.

What? Only reason why tickets are reduces is so that you won't fight them. If and when you fight the ticket the fine will be for the maximum amount for your conviction. It has always been this way.

OP: Sometimes you shouldn't ask for so much. $45 is a small price to pay for a lesson learnt.

This is true, they can

Have you ever seen this happened or heard of this happening?

I haven't...
You can get hit by lighting but doesn't mean that you will get hit. Also, no one said they were guilty;)

IIRC, they charge can be amended, if the trial is in less than 6 months from the day of the charge.

Neither have I and if it's being done in Toronto (cuz I can assure you it never happens in my jurisdiction) it's because nobody's fighting that issue. It breaches so many charter rights that changing the charge just because you exercise your constitutional right to a trial amounts to nothing less than extortion...which clearly brings the administration of justice into disrepute.

I've heard people here say they've seen it happen, I'm not sure I believe it, but like I said, if true, somebody ought to be challenging that practice, I'd bet money it wouldn't pass constitutional muster. I've discussed this issue with a couple JP friends of mine and even they can't believe JPs anywhere in Ontario are getting away with this practice. You can't be forced to forfeit one constitutional right by choosing to exercise another.

[ticketcombat]

They can't raise the charge back up on the original ticket but that doesn't stop some prosecutors from "threatening" to raise it back up to intimidate pretrial negotiations. There's also the threat of withdrawing the charge and issuing a part 3 summons which is perfectly legal within 6 months.

The victim surcharge is a fixed amount up to $1000, after which it's 25%. See Reg 161 (http://www.canlii.org/on/laws/regu/2000r.161/20080821/whole.html)

Court costs are $5 (for the officer handing you the ticket). This is on top of the victim surcharge. See Reg 945 (http://www.canlii.org///on/laws/regu/1990r.945/20080821/whole.html).

[chilicat]

The question of amendment of a certificate is dealt with in section 34 of the Provincial Offence Act:

34. (1). Amendment of information or certificate.

The court may, at any stage of the proceeding, amend the information or certificate as may be necessary if it appears that the information or certificate,

(a) fails to state or states defectively anything that is requisite to charge the offence;

(b) does not negative an exception that should be negatived; or

(c) is in any way defective in substance or form.

(2) Idem.

The court may, during the trial, amend the information or certificate as may be necessary if the matters to be alleged in the proposed amendment are disclosed by the evidence taken at the trial.

(4) Considerations on amendment.

The court shall, in considering whether or not an amendment should be made, consider,

(a) the evidence taken on the trial, if any;

(b) the circumstances of the case;

(c) whether the defendant has been misled or prejudiced in the defendant’s defence by a variance, error or omission; and

(d) whether, having regard to the merits of the case, the proposed amendment can be made without injustice being done.


The prosecutor will often "threaten" to seek an amendment to the original speed recorded AT TRIAL (which is ultimately up to the JP if it's amended or not). This means you can go, see if the officer is there, make sure he dotted his i's and crossed his t's and if so, tell the prosecutor you just want to pay it as it is.

[_protege_]

What happens if I show up, the cop is not there, then the cop is late.

Does the trial start without him/her? Do they wait for the cop for a certain amount of time?

[Nikita]

The question of amendment of a certificate is dealt with in section 34 of the Provincial Offence Act:

34. (1). Amendment of information or certificate.

The court may, at any stage of the proceeding, amend the information or certificate as may be necessary if it appears that the information or certificate,

(a) fails to state or states defectively anything that is requisite to charge the offence;

(b) does not negative an exception that should be negatived; or

(c) is in any way defective in substance or form.

(2) Idem.

The court may, during the trial, amend the information or certificate as may be necessary if the matters to be alleged in the proposed amendment are disclosed by the evidence taken at the trial.

(4) Considerations on amendment.

The court shall, in considering whether or not an amendment should be made, consider,

(a) the evidence taken on the trial, if any;

(b) the circumstances of the case;

(c) whether the defendant has been misled or prejudiced in the defendant’s defence by a variance, error or omission; and

(d) whether, having regard to the merits of the case, the proposed amendment can be made without injustice being done.


The prosecutor will often "threaten" to seek an amendment to the original speed recorded AT TRIAL (which is ultimately up to the JP if it's amended or not). This means you can go, see if the officer is there, make sure he dotted his i's and crossed his t's and if so, tell the prosecutor you just want to pay it as it is.

There's a huge difference between 'amending' the information in a charging document and changing the charge altogether. Amendments are generally made to correct errors on the charging document, such as the date, the licence plate, the accused's address etc. One will always be prejudiced by a change of the charge at the time of trial for obvious reasons.

I have to say, it offends my sense of morality that cops and/or prosecutors are threatening things they can't do. This is never an issue in my jurisdiction, and never a consideration that an accused has to be concerned about.

[stuntman]

What happens if I show up, the cop is not there, then the cop is late.

Does the trial start without him/her? Do they wait for the cop for a certain amount of time?

I could be wrong here, but, not only does the cop not have to be present you have to present a reason....so have one ready. Like "I was not speeding"

Is this your 3rd speeding ticket or something? Insurance companies usually don't check unless there is a status change on the insurance, like a new car.

sm

[chilicat]

There's a huge difference between 'amending' the information in a charging document and changing the charge altogether. Amendments are generally made to correct errors on the charging document, such as the date, the licence plate, the accused's address etc. One will always be prejudiced by a change of the charge at the time of trial for obvious reasons.

I have to say, it offends my sense of morality that cops and/or prosecutors are threatening things they can't do. This is never an issue in my jurisdiction, and never a consideration that an accused has to be concerned about.

Pretty sure there's case law to back it up too..

[Hugh Jass]

Your insurance isn't going to double over a 10km/hr over ticket.... I strongly doubt it will even go up.






Maybe a couple of bucks a month for three years. That's if it's the only conviction.

[Jon Lai]

There are no court fees, there's a victim surcharge added to the amount of the ticket, it's a percentage, I don't recall what it is but it's minimal.

Neither have I and if it's being done in Toronto (cuz I can assure you it never happens in my jurisdiction) it's because nobody's fighting that issue. It breaches so many charter rights that changing the charge just because you exercise your constitutional right to a trial amounts to nothing less than extortion...which clearly brings the administration of justice into disrepute.

I've heard people here say they've seen it happen, I'm not sure I believe it, but like I said, if true, somebody ought to be challenging that practice, I'd bet money it wouldn't pass constitutional muster. I've discussed this issue with a couple JP friends of mine and even they can't believe JPs anywhere in Ontario are getting away with this practice. You can't be forced to forfeit one constitutional right by choosing to exercise another.

I'm not 100% sure but this is how I have been told how it works.

The ticket you get has your conviction and a fine on it. The fine is written by the officer, it can be anything s/he desires (well, not really, but you know what I mean), s/he can lower it, which is the OP's case.

If and when you fight it, you are fighting for the conviction. The conviction carries a maximum penalty on it, which you are subject to. If you plead guilty after that, the fine may be reduced from the maximum. Doesn't make sense to me though, because if you are going to plead guilty anyways, might as well pay the reduced fines from the beginning and save the time going to court.

Basically the reduced fines is like a "settlement" in a sense.

[Nikita]

I'm not 100% sure but this is how I have been told how it works.

The ticket you get has your conviction and a fine on it. The fine is written by the officer, it can be anything s/he desires (well, not really, but you know what I mean), s/he can lower it, which is the OP's case.

If and when you fight it, you are fighting for the conviction. The conviction carries a maximum penalty on it, which you are subject to. If you plead guilty after that, the fine may be reduced from the maximum. Doesn't make sense to me though, because if you are going to plead guilty anyways, might as well pay the reduced fines from the beginning and save the time going to court.

Basically the reduced fines is like a "settlement" in a sense.

First, you're not fighting a conviction, your fighting or defending a charge. It doesn't become a conviction until you're found guilty. The amount that the cop writes on the ticket is the set fine amount for whatever speed he's put you at + surcharge. If you are pleading guilty, it's either to the original charge in which case you'll pay the full amount that's written on the ticket, OR after making a plea deal with the prosecutor, you are pleading to a lesser charge (e.g. instead of 20k over that you were originally charged with, you agree to plead to 15k over) which carries with it a lower set fine and that's what you pay + surcharge. Also for each range of speeds there is a set amount of demerit points.

So the JP isn't giving you a lower fine, the JP is taking a plea to a lesser charge that carries with it a lesser fine. The JP actually has no discretion wrt the amount of the fine (or points), the fines are set/fixed according to the speed over that you're pleading to (or found guilty of if you go to trial and lose).

What happens if I show up, the cop is not there, then the cop is late.

Does the trial start without him/her? Do they wait for the cop for a certain amount of time?

I could be wrong here, but, not only does the cop not have to be present you have to present a reason....so have one ready. Like "I was not speeding"

Is this your 3rd speeding ticket or something? Insurance companies usually don't check unless there is a status change on the insurance, like a new car.

sm


If the cop isn't there when they call your case, the case is dismissed most of the time. If the cop is in another courtroom at the moment s/he's called for your case or if the cop has advised the Crown s/he is, say stuck in traffic but on the way, the Crown can do one of two things: 1) not call your case till the cop arrives (it's the Crown that calls the cases, not the Court) or, 2) if s/he calls your case only to find out the cop isn't there, can ask that the matter be 'stood down', meaning held till later basically and you are stuck waiting. That rarely happens in HT Court though, unless it's a serious case or the Crown really has it out for you. The JP can agree or not to stand it down. If the JP doesn't agree to stand it down, or if the Crown doesn't even ask for it to be stood down, the case is dismissed.

If the cop isn't there and there are no other witnesses (and there usually aren't in most HT cases), you don't have to give any defense at all. They have no witness, they have no case, you have nothing to defend and the charge has to be dismissed.



So yes, it is a settlement, it's just that it's called a 'resolution' or a 'plea agreement' if you want to be picky...lol.

[ticketcombat]

Pretty sure there's case law to back it up too..

Some interesting cases: R. v. Aristidou, 2007 (http://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/2007/2007oncj250/2007oncj250.html) Here the officer charged the guy with speeding 85 in a 70. They got into it so the officer tells him "next time keep your mouth shut" and changes the ticket to 93 in a 70! The court rules the officer can alter the certificate before filing after which only the court can amend it.

In London (City) v. Young, 2008 (http://www.ontariocourts.on.ca/decisions/2008/may/2008ONCA0429.htm) the court rules that the ticket you get and the certificate that's filed in court must be the same. Doherty J. dissents supporting York (Regional Municipality) v. Wilson (2005) which says they don't have to be the same.

Moral: it really depends on the justice you get and their school of thought.

Also set fines apply to guilty pleas while statutory fines apply to convictions (see R. v. O’Neill, 2008 ONCJ 391 (http://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/2008/2008oncj391/2008oncj391.html)). However the practice in most courts is to apply the set fine anyway.

But the justice can charge less than the set fine or remove the penalty under s.69 of the POA or charge more than the set fine under s. 15 of the Regulatory Modernization Act.

This is one of the reasons why I built my website. Who else is going to tell you all of this before your trial? People need a place to go so they can learn, prepare and win!

[Friday5PM]

Cool, bookmarked your site, I'll probably need it in the future.

[Stellamama]

Yes, $45 is a small price, but a conviction isn't that small for insurance.

Then don't be an @ss, face the consequences of what you did, pay the fine, stop speeding and dont clog up the legal system with a waste-of-time case. And if your insurance goes up, you deserved it

[don_lee103]

yes, but you will have to pay court fees as well.

Cops are paid to be in court, all their tickets are scheduled for the same day.

The cop will be there 98% of the time.

I am not too sure if Cops are paid to show up in court. Can anyone elaborate on this? I was told that cops almost never show up.
BTW, I live in BC

[phomp]

I am not too sure if Cops are paid to show up in court. Can anyone elaborate on this? I was told that cops almost never show up.
BTW, I live in BC

Do not know about BC, but over here the cop still gets paid.

[phomp]

yes, but you will have to pay court fees as well.

Cops are paid to be in court, all their tickets are scheduled for the same day.

The cop will be there 98% of the time.

Really? Is there any stats to back that up. I would really be curious if it is that much.

I remember my girlfriend got a ticket for invalid ownership or something like that, which was an invalid ticket actually. The ministry made a typo on the ownership (put the month and the year backwards). The officer failed to call and check (like she was suppose to do) and issued a ticket instead. The police station apologized to her for the officers negligence and told my g/f to fight it.

We got pulled over because I was not wearing my seatbelt (stupid me, we were just about at my house and I took it off and then an officer popped out.... lesson learned). I faught it anyway and the officer showed up to my trial but then left right after because my G/F's trial was next and she did not show to that. I guess she knew it was her fault and did not want to show and waste her time.

My brother is lucky, he is 5/5 on fighting his tickets because of officers not showing up. That being said 2 of those tickets were for silly things on my brothers part such as forgetting his licence or the company cars insurance being expired by one day (insurance agent drops off our cards near expire date but I guess forgot to make it by deadline..lol) which if he goes into court with the valid licence and insurance then usually you will win regardless.

[Rekognize]

I just fought my ticket yesterday.

It was a reduced ticket; 50 in a 40 zone, original was 62. Original fine was $56.

Went to court, cop was there so I pleaded guilty but towards the end the judge asked if there's anything else I'd like to add.

"Is there anything else you would like to add?"
> "Your worship I'd like to request a fine reduction if possible"
"Ok how's $15 and 30 days to pay?"
> "Awesome, thanks" :lol:

Court fee/surcharge is $10 for fines of $0-50.

[Tomy]

They can't raise the charge back up on the original ticket but that doesn't stop some prosecutors from "threatening" to raise it back up to intimidate pretrial negotiations. There's also the threat of withdrawing the charge and issuing a part 3 summons which is perfectly legal within 6 months.

The victim surcharge is a fixed amount up to $1000, after which it's 25%. See Reg 161 (http://www.canlii.org/on/laws/regu/2000r.161/20080821/whole.html)

Court costs are $5 (for the officer handing you the ticket). This is on top of the victim surcharge. See Reg 945 (http://www.canlii.org///on/laws/regu/1990r.945/20080821/whole.html).

unfortunately, my coworker happened to get his original fine raised back up since he tried to fight it.

FYI.

[Tomy]

I just fought my ticket yesterday.

It was a reduced ticket; 50 in a 40 zone, original was 62. Original fine was $56.

Went to court, cop was there so I pleaded guilty but towards the end the judge asked if there's anything else I'd like to add.

"Is there anything else you would like to add?"
> "Your worship I'd like to request a fine reduction if possible"
"Ok how's $15 and 30 days to pay?"
> "Awesome, thanks" :lol:

Court fee/surcharge is $10 for fines of $0-50.

so 15$+ 10$ total fine is what you'll have to pay?

[Rekognize]

so 15$+ 10$ total fine is what you'll have to pay?

Yes. Even if the fine was waived but you're convicted you still have to pay $10

[_protege_]

Then don't be an @ss, face the consequences of what you did, pay the fine, stop speeding and dont clog up the legal system with a waste-of-time case. And if your insurance goes up, you deserved it

I didn't make this thread to get biased opinions, but to get advice.

Anyways, no, I don't want my insurance to go up because of this. I don't care if I deserved this ticket or not or if I am clogging up the legal system. Regardless if you think it is a "waste-of-time case" or not, I have a right to do what I'm doing. With all the taxes I pay to help fund the legal system, this is small return.

[Friday5PM]

Yes. Even if the fine was waived but you're convicted you still have to pay $10

Can't really "waive the fine" and get charge with conviction without any fine to pay...If you did not get convicted or charges were drop then there is no fine or court case & etc to pay