Toronto's Bluebox stuff goes to CHINA!

[ferkel]

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/584523

To get to China from Toronto, the mixed paper is stacked in bales, placed in shipping containers and sent across country to the port of Vancouver by train, said Jake Westerhof, of Canada Fibres, which sells Toronto's paper to Nine Dragons.

From Vancouver, it is placed on a large freighter ship and spends several weeks at sea before arriving in one of China's southern ports. It is moved into a truck a driven several hours before arriving at the massive Nine Dragons paper mill in the province of Guangdong.

[_Allan_]

WTF? how does THAT save the environment?
It creates a huge carbon footprint from diesel in the trains, trucks, and boats ... stupid, stupid, stupid!
Build better recycling plants in and around the province and reduce the carbon footprint.

[bokep]

that's why reduce and reuse come before recycle

all the way to china though? damn

[Hairball]

I saw that in the paper today, it does seem a bit ridiculous.

But hey, we buy a lot from China, and it's better than sending ships back there empty for the next delivery. (Cynical thought)

[ferkel]

Mayor David Miller is a genius... he's like Toronto's own George Bush

[king_george]

Mayor David Miller is a genius... he's like Toronto's own George Bush

Why do you feel the need to insult GWB so badly? After all the guy is out of office. :D

[Jon Lai]

Where else do you guys suggest the blue stuff to be sent off to? There's barely any companies locally that would "need" or "want" them.

[Emancipated]

WTF? how does THAT save the environment?
It creates a huge carbon footprint from diesel in the trains, trucks, and boats ... stupid, stupid, stupid!
Build better recycling plants in and around the province and reduce the carbon footprint.

This is largely why people think recycling is a misnomer and a big fat farce.

[_Allan_]

Where else do you guys suggest the blue stuff to be sent off to? There's barely any companies locally that would "need" or "want" them.

Build plants that will take them, make them crown operations, and then hire LOCAL PEOPLE (who are out of work!) and that'll do three things:
1: Reduce carbon footprint
2: Create Local jobs and thus
3: Boost the economy a bit.

[slowtyper]

WTF? how does THAT save the environment?
It creates a huge carbon footprint from diesel in the trains, trucks, and boats ... stupid, stupid, stupid!
Build better recycling plants in and around the province and reduce the carbon footprint.

Build better plants vs shipping it away

-Both have an environmental impact (recycling facilities have to be built and operated)

-Remember that this raw recyclable material is a commodity and we're not just shipping it to China, we are selling it to China and making money. It costs money to build and upgrade recycling plants locally.

-there may not be demand for the output from the recycling plants here in Canada. If that were the case, what would we do with all the recycled material?

I'm not sure about the accuracy of these statements, just making some examples of things that would need to be analyzed first. If we just made crown corporations to take this stuff and they are not profitable, sure it creates jobs but it would just keep eating money and eventually people would be criticizing the government for creating another fat crown corporation.

[mingming]

imagine having our own paper mill to handle the recycled paper

- wages of $30 an hour for the paper shoveler, $40 for the lever controller, $50 for the lever controller supervisor, $60 for the Senior lever controller supervisor (ok, i like that fedex commercial)
- union strikes every 2 months, loads of paper in storage during work stoppage
- takes about 3 weeks rather than 3 hours to get the job done
- final product sold at ridiculous costs, no one will buy, left sitting there for months

[ji2o0k]

where do you think all the filling comes from in Chinese dumplings and buns........that sure ain't pork!

[KorruptioN]

imagine having our own paper mill to handle the recycled paper

- wages of $30 an hour for the paper shoveler, $40 for the lever controller, $50 for the lever controller supervisor, $60 for the Senior lever controller supervisor (ok, i like that fedex commercial)
- union strikes every 2 months, loads of paper in storage during work stoppage
- takes about 3 weeks rather than 3 hours to get the job done
- final product sold at ridiculous costs, no one will buy, left sitting there for months

So true :lol:

[bokep]

imagine having our own paper mill to handle the recycled paper

- wages of $30 an hour for the paper shoveler, $40 for the lever controller, $50 for the lever controller supervisor, $60 for the Senior lever controller supervisor (ok, i like that fedex commercial)
- union strikes every 2 months, loads of paper in storage during work stoppage
- takes about 3 weeks rather than 3 hours to get the job done
- final product sold at ridiculous costs, no one will buy, left sitting there for months

you gotta stay lean, you gotta stay mean

[Jon Lai]

Build plants that will take them, make them crown operations, and then hire LOCAL PEOPLE (who are out of work!) and that'll do three things:
1: Reduce carbon footprint
2: Create Local jobs and thus
3: Boost the economy a bit.

Sure, but WHERE does the start up cost come from? No politician is brave enough to dump billions to start something up like that.

[CanadianMike]

Build plants that will take them, make them crown operations, and then hire LOCAL PEOPLE (who are out of work!) and that'll do three things:
1: Reduce carbon footprint
2: Create Local jobs and thus
3: Boost the economy a bit.
4: Enlarge the country's debt footprint

[Kommander_KornFlakes]

WTF? how does THAT save the environment?
It creates a huge carbon footprint from diesel in the trains, trucks, and boats ... stupid, stupid, stupid!
Build better recycling plants in and around the province and reduce the carbon footprint.

It just goes to show you how stupid and useless this recycle program is, that's why I don't even bother with it and just throw everything into the dumpster.

[slowtyper]

It just goes to show you how stupid and useless this recycle program is, that's why I don't even bother with it and just throw everything into the dumpster.

Recycling was never really about reducing "carbon footprint" it was always more about reducing landfill waste.

[MizTEcK]

imagine having our own paper mill to handle the recycled paper

- wages of $30 an hour for the paper shoveler, $40 for the lever controller, $50 for the lever controller supervisor, $60 for the Senior lever controller supervisor (ok, i like that fedex commercial)
- union strikes every 2 months, loads of paper in storage during work stoppage
- takes about 3 weeks rather than 3 hours to get the job done
- final product sold at ridiculous costs, no one will buy, left sitting there for months


LOL hahahahhaa gold, but that doesnt mean they should look to exploit labour elsewhere, they should just get efficient machines to reduce labour costs, economies of scale

[Pete Jones]

Recycling was never really about reducing "carbon footprint" it was always more about reducing landfill waste.

Wait a minute.

Every time I point out the dangers due to mercury in CFL bulbs, the environmentalists immediately throw out the line that even if the bulbs were thrown out, the amount of mercury would be mitigated by the decrease in the so-called carbon footprint.

Sounds like environmentalists are sucking and blowing at the same time. I suppose it's ok to ignore the whole carbon footprint issue when it's not convenient.

--Pete

[slowtyper]

Wait a minute.

Every time I point out the dangers due to mercury in CFL bulbs, the environmentalists immediately throw out the line that even if the bulbs were thrown out, the amount of mercury would be mitigated by the decrease in the so-called carbon footprint.

Sounds like environmentalists are sucking and blowing at the same time. I suppose it's ok to ignore the whole carbon footprint issue when it's not convenient.

--Pete

You are talking about a different issue. They are talking about overall environmental crap. I was talking about how the recycling industry was born out of commercial needs and reducing landfill waste.

"carbon footprint" is a fairly recent term which gets thrown around way too much IMO but obviously there needs to be more balance between the two issues.

[Jon Lai]

It just goes to show you how stupid and useless this recycle program is, that's why I don't even bother with it and just throw everything into the dumpster.

Sure, and we'll be dumping garbage in your backyard when the landfill runs out of space.

[ferkel]

where do you think all the filling comes from in Chinese dumplings and buns........that sure ain't pork!

Yes.. they are made from cardboard.. and the soy sauce is made from hair. Its true.. google it :)

[user01]

Yes.. they are made from cardboard.. and the soy sauce is made from hair. Its true.. google it :)

I heard the composed video was fake. Google it... :razz::razz::razz:

[bolmsted]

The articles I've read seem to indicate this is temporary and they will be building plants here to process things so that is is all-Canadian (and lower the carbon footprint)

[Hard_Taco]

All the recycled crap will end up back at Dollarama or Wal-Mart.

[goob3r]

Whatever. As long as I feel warm and fuzzy inside when I finish my yogurt, it is all good. That's the true purpose of recycling.

[chinese zzz]

Whatever. As long as I feel warm and fuzzy inside when I finish my yogurt, it is all good. That's the true purpose of recycling.

And your yogurt cup is going to china..?:confused:

give trash to my country ?:(

[abu_sme]

Whatever. As long as I feel warm and fuzzy inside when I finish my yogurt, it is all good. That's the true purpose of recycling.

Yogurt cups aren't recyclable anyways:o

[wong8egg]

imagine having our own paper mill to handle the recycled paper

- wages of $30 an hour for the paper shoveler, $40 for the lever controller, $50 for the lever controller supervisor, $60 for the Senior lever controller supervisor (ok, i like that fedex commercial)
- union strikes every 2 months, loads of paper in storage during work stoppage
- takes about 3 weeks rather than 3 hours to get the job done
- final product sold at ridiculous costs, no one will buy, left sitting there for months

In China

- wages of $10US a day for the paper shoveler who is also the lever controller.
- work 7 days a week with no coffee break
- use 3 hours to do the same work that cost 3 weeks to do in Canada
- final product sold with ridiculous markup by the Canadian business man.

[goob3r]

Yogurt cups aren't recyclable anyways:o

You can in Toronto. :cheesygri

http://www.toronto.ca/greenguide/waste_recycling.htm#blue_box

[Vascilli]

Wait a minute.

Every time I point out the dangers due to mercury in CFL bulbs, the environmentalists immediately throw out the line that even if the bulbs were thrown out, the amount of mercury would be mitigated by the decrease in the so-called carbon footprint.

Sounds like environmentalists are sucking and blowing at the same time. I suppose it's ok to ignore the whole carbon footprint issue when it's not convenient.

--Pete

Just tell them to get some LED bulbs and stop whining. :cheesygri

[doorbellring]

Just tell them to get some LED bulbs and stop whining. :cheesygri

Some cool LED bulbs (http://www.dealextreme.com/products.dx/category.907) at DX

http://www1.dealextreme.com/productimages/sku_12960_1.jpg

[Takami]

China will be the next green tech / recycling giant. They have put in massive investments in keeping the impact of their development as small as possible. Implementing green innovations has always been hindered by the high cost associated, however, China can do it for a cheap price.

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/stories/2008/08/18/daily39.html?ana=from_rss

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_China

[artsreview]

Sure, but WHERE does the start up cost come from? No politician is brave enough to dump billions to start something up like that.

Two words - stimulus package. :razz:

[abu_sme]

You can in Toronto. :cheesygri

http://www.toronto.ca/greenguide/waste_recycling.htm#blue_box

They don't recycle all plastics, but there is so much confusion about what can and cannot be recycled that most authorities now just say "all plastic" to encourage recycling. A lot of the stuff that goes in the bins ends up in landfills.

I don't know why Toronto (or...good luck with this, Vancouver) doesn't invest in a waste to energy plant. It would remove the need to transport garbage hundreds (and sometime thousands) of kilometres. But the sight of a garbage incinerator would probably not fly in Vancouver, but maybe in Toronto.

[M@rk]

Toronto gets paid roughly $30 to $40 per tonne of mixed paper sent to China. According to Geoff Rathbone, general manager of Toronto's solid waste department, that worked out to be about $600,000 to $800,000 in 2007 and 2008.

The city gets paid to offload their junk to China. If they were to build facilities locally, the labor alone would probably cost millions. So I don't see anything wrong with what they're currently doing, unless you guys think the issue is important enough to you that you'd sacrifice some of your tax dollars to fund a recycling program with a 'smaller carbon footprint'.

[time space]

Wow. A reasonably well argued thread at RFD! :eek:

[Djayjay]

It is all about the money.

It's not right, but that is the way it is.

I worked at a recycling company and when they were short handed they would take people off the jobs where the least amount of money was being made, when they could have called people from a temp agency (which they used at times) I wrote to the local paper and they did put a piece about it in there. Basically what they would do is take the person that was sorting the colored glass and have them pull off plastic hdpe or pet (plastics) and all the colored glass would go into landfill that day. If the aluminum machine broke down, they would shut the whole line down, till it was fixed, cause thats where the money was.

I thought that recycling was to keep it out of the landfill. But it's not all about that.

[Pete Jones]

It is all about the money.

It's not right, but that is the way it is.

I worked at a recycling company and when they were short handed they would take people off the jobs where the least amount of money was being made, when they could have called people from a temp agency (which they used at times) I wrote to the local paper and they did put a piece about it in there. Basically what they would do is take the person that was sorting the colored glass and have them pull off plastic hdpe or pet (plastics) and all the colored glass would go into landfill that day. If the aluminum machine broke down, they would shut the whole line down, till it was fixed, cause thats where the money was.

I thought that recycling was to keep it out of the landfill. But it's not all about that.

Finally, somebody who gets it. :!:

Look, it's not that I'm against recycling, but I really have issues with people who get on their high horse about the environment when what it really comes down to is that none of this is going to happen unless someone is making money doing it.

Case in point, years ago, before recycling, it happened anyway because a lot of folks would go "garbage picking" and collect newspapers and bottles and other stuff that was perfectly decent to re-use somewhere.

Now, the City of Toronto considers anything put out to the curb their property and will actually fine you if you are found rummaging through recyclables. If this was really about the environment and recycling, you would think the city would be tickled ping that other people are getting use out of these products.

In the end, it really is about the money. I'd have fewer issues with it if the powers that be just came clean about it and admitted it.

--Pete

[gman]

Sure, but WHERE does the start up cost come from? No politician is brave enough to dump billions to start something up like that.

Besides the cost, with our infamous not my back yard attitude, you can't even find a site to build that plant without extensive environmental assessment and extensive local protest.

Yogurt cups aren't recyclable anyways:o

It can be recycle in Markham. I put the yogurt cup to my dish washer (with other dishes). After it is washed, it goes to the blue box.

[ferkel]

How come a world class city like San Francisco can recycle their own garbage? Maybe because they have a real mayor. :D

[slowtyper]

Finally, somebody who gets it. :!:

Look, it's not that I'm against recycling, but I really have issues with people who get on their high horse about the environment when what it really comes down to is that none of this is going to happen unless someone is making money doing it.

Case in point, years ago, before recycling, it happened anyway because a lot of folks would go "garbage picking" and collect newspapers and bottles and other stuff that was perfectly decent to re-use somewhere.

Now, the City of Toronto considers anything put out to the curb their property and will actually fine you if you are found rummaging through recyclables. If this was really about the environment and recycling, you would think the city would be tickled ping that other people are getting use out of these products.

In the end, it really is about the money. I'd have fewer issues with it if the powers that be just came clean about it and admitted it.

--Pete

This is already pretty obvious to anybody with a clue. I don't understand with your issue is? What difference does it actually make to you and what would it cause you to do differently?

edit: I mean, if a drug company is researching a cure for a disease, they are really doing it for money but of course that isn't what they say on the commercials.

[manho]

All the recycled crap will end up back at Dollarama or Wal-Mart.

i doubt.

recycled products tends to be more expensive. (ie. a pack of plain recycled "green" paper always costs more than the regular plain white paper at staples)

[Jon Lai]

How come a world class city like San Francisco can recycle their own garbage? Maybe because they have a real mayor. :D

If you're going to criticize then I'll vote you as our next mayor. :P

[Pete Jones]

This is already pretty obvious to anybody with a clue. I don't understand with your issue is? What difference does it actually make to you and what would it cause you to do differently?

That's my point. Most people, I feel, really don't have a clue.

edit: I mean, if a drug company is researching a cure for a disease, they are really doing it for money but of course that isn't what they say on the commercials.

The difference is that the drug company isn't outright lying to you saying that their not in it for the money. The fact is that the city has always maintained that the reason for recycling has been solely to divert waste to landfills but the fact is that not only has it become a revenue generator, but some of the waste still manages to hit the landfill.

--Pete

[slowtyper]

The difference is that the drug company isn't outright lying to you saying that their not in it for the money. The fact is that the city has always maintained that the reason for recycling has been solely to divert waste to landfills but the fact is that not only has it become a revenue generator, but some of the waste still manages to hit the landfill.

--Pete

First I should mention I am not a big recycling freak or anything, just looking up this info as I go.

You say the city is outright lying to you...can you show me where they say something like this? They are providing a service and of course it has to be viable to continue doing business. There is probably some info available to the public somewhere that actually says how much Toronto's recycling program is profiting or if it is operating at a loss. On a cursory search I didn't find anything.

Anyways, even if they do aim to reduce landfill waste as their main goal, how can you fault them for not being 100% efficient if it becomes too costly? The program has to be sustainable and if doing certain things causes them to operate at a loss other measures have to be taken.

Sure their website doesn't say anything about making money being their objective...but come on, show me any organization that does non-profit or for-profit.

BTW here is some info regarding the CFL's you were talking about earlier: http://www.toronto.ca/garbage/fluorescent.htm

[gman]

I don't get it. Why does people complain about the government making money from garbage? The more money they make, in theory, the less tax dollar we need to provide.

[Jon Lai]

I don't get it. Why does people complain about the government making money from garbage? The more money they make, in theory, the less tax dollar we need to provide.

+1

AND.. the revenue they get from recycling is FAR less than the amount they spend collecting it in the first place.

[CanadianMike]

AND.. the revenue they get from recycling is FAR less than the amount they spend collecting it in the first place.
sigh.....

yet another example of jon lai creating facts.....

i was going to say 'source?'....but figured it would be a fruitless endevour.

edit: turned out i misread the quote....:lol:

[Jon Lai]

sigh.....

yet another example of jon lai creating facts.....

i was going to say 'source?'....but figured it would be a fruitless endevour.

That was what I heard on the radio - at least that's the fact now with the decline in prices China is willing to pay for our garbage.

[UncleSteve]

+1

AND.. the revenue they get from recycling is FAR less than the amount they spend collecting it in the first place.

sigh.....

yet another example of jon lai creating facts.....

i was going to say 'source?'....but figured it would be a fruitless endevour.



Rathbone said about 50% of Toronto's recycling costs are covered by the province's Waste Diversion Ontario fund, while taxpayers and recycling revenue fund the remaining half.

Note that Rathbone is Geoff Rathbone, general manager of the city's solid waste management services

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2009/02/04/8255421-sun.html

[CanadianMike]

That was what I heard on the radio - at least that's the fact now with the decline in prices China is willing to pay for our garbage.
Note that Rathbone is Geoff Rathbone, general manager of the city's solid waste management services

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2009/02/04/8255421-sun.html
makes sense when i look back to what i quoted.

mixed up 'FAR less' and 'FAR more'.....

carry on.....;)

[ferkel]

http://www.thestar.ca/news/investigations/article/705380

Can it get even better.. recycle material is going straight into the landfill now

[BMWWW]

Its rather comical that some would think that building local facilities would somehow make us, Toronto, Canada a 'greener' or 'sociably responsible'.

When it comes down to numbers, here's an idea for you crazy lot.

Tacking on an extra few rails on a stupidly long trans-canada train + sending a fuller cargo ship back to china vs planning, approving, silencing the locals that would be 'voicing' their concerns, building, training, employing ect ect for a local plant.

Here's an abreviated version:

You're a wealthy local. Would you rather
A: Read up on gardening, research, buy all the associated seeds, fertilizer, mulch, sod, tools, watering mechanisms, get down on your knees and manicure your 50acre lot
OR
B: Write a cheque to the local guys, and proceed to smoke cohibas and sip your chardonnay by the cozy fire?

:idea::idea:

[Bazooka Joe]

http://www.thestar.ca/news/investigations/article/705380

Can it get even better.. recycle material is going straight into the landfill now

Should have made a new thread IMO, this message will get lost in date confusion.

Either way, this is old news. Back in 2000, 85% of glass that went into blue boxes ended up in landfills. The Ontario government was willing to pay people to take it.

[alkaseltzer01]

Garbage into the country, garbage out of the country.