LCD/Plasma help! Should I buy 52" Sony XBR6 or 50" Pioneer Kuro 5020?

[ppcuser]

Let's assume I can get the 52" LCD XBR6 for approx. $2200 + tax, and the 50" Plasma 5020 for approx. $2500+ tax.

What are my pros/cons?
I know from reading that the contrast levels make little/no difference.
The Sony LCD is 52", the Pioneer Plasma is 50"
I am sitting approx. 8-9' away and mounting it above my mantle 4 1/2' up from the ground on a wall mount.

The room gets a good amount of light during the day (well lit).

Anyone that has owned both units want to chime in?

Help, and thank you in advance!

[Gutty96]

The 5020FD is the far better choice. There really is nothing in the LCD world that can touch it.

Problem is, you can't have it for $2500 anymore.

It is $3799 @ FS, and $2999 @ BB

[ppcuser]

^

Thanks for the input Gutty!

I'm actually dealing with a guy at a local store who's given me good deals in the past, and he's willing to go around the $2500~ route for the 5020. Is the FP a variant of that model?

How about black levels in both units? My current 27" CRT is getting reflections from the window behind me in my family room (one large window). I have a shade/filter on it, but it's still lighting the room quite well. Only problem is the window reflects onto the CRT as my family room is quite open concept.

[Gutty96]

^

Thanks for the input Gutty!

I'm actually dealing with a guy at a local store who's given me good deals in the past, and he's willing to go around the $2500~ route for the 5020. Is the FP a variant of that model?

How about black levels in both units? My current 27" CRT is getting reflections from the window behind me in my family room (one large window). I have a shade/filter on it, but it's still lighting the room quite well. Only problem is the window reflects onto the CRT as my family room is quite open concept.

Black levels are unmatched on the Kuro. NOTHING in LCD can come close.

Reflections will be there, it is a glass panel, so that is unavoidable. They are anti-reflective, so it offers some protection, but you will see it.

It may be the sacrifice you have to make to have the best TV going. I know sometimes I see a little refection of light, but you know what. It is still worth it when I weigh in all the positives of this TV.

I would far rather deal with a little light reflection, then the nauseating felling I get watching anything fast moving on an LCD.

[ppcuser]

I would far rather deal with a little light reflection, then the nauseating felling I get watching anything fast moving on an LCD.

Even with the XBR6's 120hz Motion Flow technology? I don't watch any hockey for sports, only basketball. How's Motion Flow with standard definition basketball games?

[tripwire]

Black levels are unmatched on the Kuro. NOTHING in LCD can come close.

The LED driven XBR8 and LNA950 also measue a 0.000fl black level reading.

Just saying

[tripwire]

Even with the XBR6's 120hz Motion Flow technology? I don't watch any hockey for sports, only basketball. How's Motion Flow with standard definition basketball games?

You won't get nauseated, with the 60Hz LCD's you might, but not with this Sony.

Motion Flow works fine, and many prefer it to Samsung's AMP technology (less of a soap opera look). There's different settings that will appease each individual.

If i had to choose between the 2 at that marginal price difference, the Kuro would be coming home with me. Even in a well lit room, the Kuro panel works better at absorbing light than any other plasma on the market.

[zzz3]

The LED driven XBR8 and LNA950 also measue a 0.000fl black level reading.

Just saying

Lol at those prices you can get an isf calibrated elite.

BTW to the OP, try asking this question on avs (partly for my entertainment to see the xbr get ripped :twisted:).

[Badman]

hey op could you tell what place is giving these prices?

in the market for a tv as well

[Gutty96]

Even with the XBR6's 120hz Motion Flow technology? I don't watch any hockey for sports, only basketball. How's Motion Flow with standard definition basketball games?

Yup, even with 120Hz. I was fully prepared to buy an LCD until saw them next to a Plasma. Then, I saw the Kuro. There was no looking back from there.

[ppcuser]

Thanks for the responses all!

Does anyone know of a good place to view a Pioneer Kuro next to a Sony XBR maybe?

[ice168]

hey op could you tell what place is giving these prices?

in the market for a tv as well

I am interested in the 5020 at that price as well. Mind to tell us which store?
Thanks

[ppcuser]

Thanks for the replies guys, I'll have to wait a few weeks for my finances to get in line then I'm going for the 5020! I wish I could get more people the deal, but it took me a LOT to negotiate with this guy (who's also a family friend). It's a local store and he told me not to tell others the price otherwise he'd get fired... so think of it as a "theoretical situation" ;)

[belowzeros]

I don't really enjoy HD sports or movies on anything but Plasma. It's just a personal choice but I can't really stand them on LCDs.

For console games I really prefer LCDs tho, the colours pop a lot better and there aren't really any motion problems.

[loybond]

The LED driven XBR8 and LNA950 also measue a 0.000fl black level reading.

Just saying

Those aren't true black levels. If there were exactly 1920x1080 LEDs, then, there'd be more of a point to local dimming, which is what happens. For example, the black bars above and below the movie, the TV will turn off the LEDs behind there, giving you a true black. But that's not what a great black level does. When you're watching a dark movie, Batman or something, the blacks that are actually in the movie will be darker, and as a result, each colour is more vibrant, and more shadow detail is present.

You won't be able to find even one professional recommendation for any LCD over a Kuro.

And OP, who told you contrast ratios don't matter? CR is the number one factor in video performance!

[loybond]

Black levels are unmatched on the Kuro. NOTHING in LCD can come close.

Reflections will be there, it is a glass panel, so that is unavoidable. They are anti-reflective, so it offers some protection, but you will see it.

It may be the sacrifice you have to make to have the best TV going. I know sometimes I see a little refection of light, but you know what. It is still worth it when I weigh in all the positives of this TV.

I would far rather deal with a little light reflection, then the nauseating felling I get watching anything fast moving on an LCD.

Yes, and the Kuro does better in bright scenarios than the XBR does in dark... by a lot. You're not gonna look at the Kuro and say... it's not bright enough (well, I never did, but then again, I never had direct sunlight on it). You will, at some point (presumably after watching a Kuro in the dark) say damn, all LCDs suck for movies in the dark.

[loybond]

OP, have you been shopping around? What's the best price you got for the 5020? I'm thinking of replacing my bedroom LCD with that. FS had them at 2599 until a few days ago, but I think that deal is dead. Please post if you find something warm.

[WolfDV]

The pio 5020 is a much better tv; you can't deep those deep blacks, and shadow detail

[Jon Lai]

The pio 5020 is a much better tv; you can't deep those deep blacks, and shadow detail

Actually, Sharp's new XS1 LCD will beat plasma's blacks and comparable if not better than the Kuro. It'll cost $12000 for 52" and $16000 for 65" however.

Point in being, if blacks is plasma's only advantage, it should be going out within 2-3 years.

[Badman]

Actually, Sharp's new XS1 LCD will beat plasma's blacks and comparable if not better than the Kuro. It'll cost $12000 for 52" and $16000 for 65" however.

Point in being, if blacks is plasma's only advantage, it should be going out within 2-3 years.

but don't you think plasma will advance as well within the next 2-3 years?

I ain't no fanboy. Actually I own 2 LCD's and 1 plasma and both have their pro's and cons.
There will never be "the Best" tv as everyone's viewing situation is different as from where the tv is located to what you are using the tv most for.

[MaximDude]

but don't you think plasma will advance as well within the next 2-3 years?

I ain't no fanboy. Actually I own 2 LCD's and 1 plasma and both have their pro's and cons.
There will never be "the Best" tv as everyone's viewing situation is different as from where the tv is located to what you are using the tv most for.

There's no 'best TV' for every single situation, but if you're looking for the best picture possible in most conditions, then the choice should definitely be plasma.

Having watched a tonne of stuff on my new plasma, it seems image retention and being too reflective in bright light is overstated as I haven't had much problems with either. And having to give up a great picture for a slight advantage in bright rooms for LCD is simply not worth it.

[Jon Lai]

but don't you think plasma will advance as well within the next 2-3 years?

I ain't no fanboy. Actually I own 2 LCD's and 1 plasma and both have their pro's and cons.
There will never be "the Best" tv as everyone's viewing situation is different as from where the tv is located to what you are using the tv most for.

For now at least, deep blacks is the only advantage to plasmas. Deep blacks produce the more vibrant colours, too. Sure plasmas will improve but I don't see them gaining any advantages to LCDs that are revolutionary enough to keep them in the ball game. Likely, if Sharp can make their Kuro-comparable blacks XS1 cheap enough to match the price of the Kuro, I think there's no doubt anyone would go for LCD provided that they don't suffer from the technologies of plasma TVs.

[loybond]

From everything I've seen, only the Kuro and maaaaybe some Panasonics are better with blacks than the latest LCDs though. Its not as if all plasmas > LCDs when it comes to black. I had an A650 which has one of the blacker blacks of LCDs, and it was indeed better than the LG, Samsung etc. plasmas. I looked at contrast ratios and black levels on the hifi review sites, and most modern LCDs beat the plasmas out there for both, with the exception of the Kuros, which really kick their arse.

Like recently, I was considering the Samsung 58" and LG 60" plasmas, and they both have horrendous contrast ratios of around 1300:1. The set was to replace an A650 that had a tested CR of around 2800:1 and a 0.09 fl black (the LG was .33 fl or around that).

These new Sharps you speak of... are they LED with local dimming, is that the reason for the blacks? If it is... its still not Kuro comparable if it can't do deep blacks and good shadow detail with actual scenes (as opposed to dimmed out areas). But for sure, LCDs will eventually overtake even the Kuro. 2009's Samsungs have great features too (MKV playback via USB), and it'll be interesting to see if their CR can exceed 3700:1, which would make it better than the best Panasonic plasma. I just hate how Samsung's best have blacks that are so susceptible to viewing angle.

As a technology, LCD is progressing faster and further than plasma, but that may be due to the market leaning towards LCD too. The only companies that have (had?) interest in plasma were Pioneer and Panasonic, and it seems Pioneer's approach was, well, not that sound. Manufacturing in Japan and assembling in the US is great for quality, but no way to save money, and not marketing your product well... all I can say is that it really hurt them. I've had people come over and say "Pioneer? What is that... Why didn't you get a Sony man?" They launched the whole Kuro-Black campaign way too late in the game, and with such high R&D & manufacturing costs, little interest and not much noticeable difference in stores, you can see why they had to do what they did.

Whatever happened to that 9mm Kuro with the infinite contrast ratio? First hand reports said it was absolutely black! I guess we'll never get to buy it...

[loybond]

There's no 'best TV' for every single situation, but if you're looking for the best picture possible in most conditions, then the choice should definitely be plasma.

Having watched a tonne of stuff on my new plasma, it seems image retention and being too reflective in bright light is overstated as I haven't had much problems with either. And having to give up a great picture for a slight advantage in bright rooms for LCD is simply not worth it.

True, not everyone can agree on one best TV, and there are many occasions for which LCDs are a lot better, but it seems most experts everywhere (CNET, the AV mags, AVS forum) choose the Kuro more than any other TV as their idea of best. I saw a preview for next year's Panasonics, and they're much improved in every way, except for not beating the 9G Kuro with blacks!

[zzz3]

From everything I've seen, only the Kuro and maaaaybe some Panasonics are better with blacks than the latest LCDs though. Its not as if all plasmas > LCDs when it comes to black. I had an A650 which has one of the blacker blacks of LCDs, and it was indeed better than the LG, Samsung etc. plasmas. I looked at contrast ratios and black levels on the hifi review sites, and most modern LCDs beat the plasmas out there for both, with the exception of the Kuros, which really kick their arse.

Like recently, I was considering the Samsung 58" and LG 60" plasmas, and they both have horrendous contrast ratios of around 1300:1. The set was to replace an A650 that had a tested CR of around 2800:1 and a 0.09 fl black (the LG was .33 fl or around that).

These new Sharps you speak of... are they LED with local dimming, is that the reason for the blacks? If it is... its still not Kuro comparable if it can't do deep blacks and good shadow detail with actual scenes (as opposed to dimmed out areas). But for sure, LCDs will eventually overtake even the Kuro. 2009's Samsungs have great features too (MKV playback via USB), and it'll be interesting to see if their CR can exceed 3700:1, which would make it better than the best Panasonic plasma. I just hate how Samsung's best have blacks that are so susceptible to viewing angle.

As a technology, LCD is progressing faster and further than plasma, but that may be due to the market leaning towards LCD too. The only companies that have (had?) interest in plasma were Pioneer and Panasonic, and it seems Pioneer's approach was, well, not that sound. Manufacturing in Japan and assembling in the US is great for quality, but no way to save money, and not marketing your product well... all I can say is that it really hurt them. I've had people come over and say "Pioneer? What is that... Why didn't you get a Sony man?" They launched the whole Kuro-Black campaign way too late in the game, and with such high R&D & manufacturing costs, little interest and not much noticeable difference in stores, you can see why they had to do what they did.

Whatever happened to that 9mm Kuro with the infinite contrast ratio? First hand reports said it was absolutely black! I guess we'll never get to buy it...

I think it has more to do with cost, for many it is hard to justify the extra $1000 or so over another tv, a few years ago the 5010 and 5080 went for exuberant amounts of money, sure the guys at avs, videophiles and high end installers will buy them by the boatload, by your average joe will not be able to afford one, and that leads to "should have bought a sony" (more like samsung now a days!). As they come down in price you will see more and more pioneer owners, and the move to panasonic panels is debatable, a lower price but will that mean a drop in innovation who knows, however lcd manufacturers seem to be doing fine even though there are only a few different panel producers.

[loybond]

Yeah, you're right. Many can't justify the cost... it's all about what you're into. I love movies/home theater/techy stuff so to me, I don't mind spending on displays (even computer monitors), but I don't like spending in other areas. I know that if I wasn't this much into this stuff, I'd probably just grab a $1200 52" 1080p Sharp or something.

Going to Panasonic panels, Kuros will not really be Kuros anymore. They were/are awesome because of the R&D Pioneer put into the development of their panels. The processing may be better, but it can't physically reduce the light output from the cells. They won't be baaad, but I don't see a reason after this 9G Kuro to go plasma at all.

By the "should have got a Sony" comment, I meant that I've run into lots of people who don't have the concept of anything above Sony. They're convinced Sony makes the best electronics, bar none. My dad is one of these guys. He looked at my Klipsch References series speakers and Velodyne 15" sub that I just picked up, and he's like why not a Sony Bravia home theater? What are these brands? No one has heard of them.

I think it has more to do with cost, for many it is hard to justify the extra $1000 or so over another tv, a few years ago the 5010 and 5080 went for exuberant amounts of money, sure the guys at avs, videophiles and high end installers will buy them by the boatload, by your average joe will not be able to afford one, and that leads to "should have bought a sony" (more like samsung now a days!). As they come down in price you will see more and more pioneer owners, and the move to panasonic panels is debatable, a lower price but will that mean a drop in innovation who knows, however lcd manufacturers seem to be doing fine even though there are only a few different panel producers.

[tripwire]

Those aren't true black levels. If there were exactly 1920x1080 LEDs, then, there'd be more of a point to local dimming, which is what happens. For example, the black bars above and below the movie, the TV will turn off the LEDs behind there, giving you a true black. But that's not what a great black level does. When you're watching a dark movie, Batman or something, the blacks that are actually in the movie will be darker, and as a result, each colour is more vibrant, and more shadow detail is present.

You won't be able to find even one professional recommendation for any LCD over a Kuro.

And OP, who told you contrast ratios don't matter? CR is the number one factor in video performance!


I posted it in response to "nothing comes close".

Read the reviews of the XBR8 by Norton and Wilkinson. By the way, make sure to check out the FEB issue of hometheatermag, they have a face-off of the big 4 (XBR8, LNA950, Elite Pro-111FD, and PZ800).

[belowzeros]

For now at least, deep blacks is the only advantage to plasmas.


ummm wha?

I'm not a fanboi either but that statement isn't entirely true

[mucat]

I believe viewing angle related to color and brightness is another advantage...in case Jon Lai wants to know...

[mkjr]

the 5020. i have seen others get the 2499 price....in this economy, any joker at BB and FS who would not give it is out to lunch. i am waiting for the same sale that landed me my 5080 for $1158 (probably have to wait till this time next year...if there is any inventory left as i understand the 5020 has a 18 month window versus the 12 on the 5080 that looks like they were manufactured up to April 2008). do post on AVS since they will give you a more technical reason why you should go with the 5020 hands down.

[Jon Lai]

These new Sharps you speak of... are they LED with local dimming, is that the reason for the blacks? If it is... its still not Kuro comparable if it can't do deep blacks and good shadow detail with actual scenes (as opposed to dimmed out areas). But for sure, LCDs will eventually overtake even the Kuro. 2009's Samsungs have great features too (MKV playback via USB), and it'll be interesting to see if their CR can exceed 3700:1, which would make it better than the best Panasonic plasma. I just hate how Samsung's best have blacks that are so susceptible to viewing angle.

I haven't had a chance to see the new Sharp myself (obviously) but quoting an article on Here's How! has indicated that the Sharp's blacks are comparable if not better than the Kuros. You all know how much of enthusiasts those guys are, so I believe them 100%.

Pick up a free copy at Black's if you want to read the article.

Viewing angles aren't an issue, IMO. This issue has been worked on continuously and at least on LCD monitors (I can afford to buy/sell these and try different models but TVs, not as much) the issue has been mostly solved as long as you dont' buy TN panels. I solely use MVA or S-PVA panels on LCD monitors - the higher priced TVs are definitely using the better panels with 178 viewing angle.

[zzz3]

Yeah, you're right. Many can't justify the cost... it's all about what you're into. I love movies/home theater/techy stuff so to me, I don't mind spending on displays (even computer monitors), but I don't like spending in other areas. I know that if I wasn't this much into this stuff, I'd probably just grab a $1200 52" 1080p Sharp or something.

Going to Panasonic panels, Kuros will not really be Kuros anymore. They were/are awesome because of the R&D Pioneer put into the development of their panels. The processing may be better, but it can't physically reduce the light output from the cells. They won't be baaad, but I don't see a reason after this 9G Kuro to go plasma at all.

By the "should have got a Sony" comment, I meant that I've run into lots of people who don't have the concept of anything above Sony. They're convinced Sony makes the best electronics, bar none. My dad is one of these guys. He looked at my Klipsch References series speakers and Velodyne 15" sub that I just picked up, and he's like why not a Sony Bravia home theater? What are these brands? No one has heard of them.

lol same scernario, i got my stuff over a period of time, so when i first got the 5020, my parents where like why not sony, when i got the klipsch reference stuff, they were like whats wrong with bose, and i think the velodyne 15 took the cake as they absolutely despise the constant rumble, not to mention size, i have come home in some cases to see all the cables pulled of the sub or the remote is "lost". I have now been given an ultimatum to sound proof the windows or else i think my velodyne is "going to get a hurting real bad".

[ppcuser]

So to update the thread, I never ended up getting the deal since the store went OOS (I could never place a hold on it). I'm still looking for remaining 5020's around the GTA, anyone know a place that still sells it? I'm willing to pay. If not, I'll be in the market for a Sammy or an XBR6 if they're still around. 52" only please recommend some places!

[Jon Lai]

So to update the thread, I never ended up getting the deal since the store went OOS (I could never place a hold on it). I'm still looking for remaining 5020's around the GTA, anyone know a place that still sells it? I'm willing to pay. If not, I'll be in the market for a Sammy or an XBR6 if they're still around. 52" only please recommend some places!

Right now you're better of getting a Panasonic 52" - $1799 at Costco but <$1600 shouldn't be a problem on sale elsewhere.

I still see Kuros on display in the big box stores around Markham but good luck getting a brand new unit, and for anything lower than $3999.

[Gutty96]

There was on open box demo 50" Kuro at the Best Buy in Whitby for $3200 when I was there last weekend. Someone may have snatched it up by now though.