HTPC Mobo: AMD 780G vs NVIDIA 8200

[nfuz]

I already have a HTPC thread, but thought this deserved its own separate discussion rather than being in my thread because if both the popular chipsets for AMDs are....crap then kind of limits the buying options... Anyhow...

Below are very conflicting reviews from two of the best hardware review sites.

Please provide your input/thoughts on their findings:

ANANDTECH REVIEW:
http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3430&p=5


24 fps Playback: Perfect on NVIDIA

The AMD 780G/790GX results were very choppy at times; even when they seemed smooth we experienced audio sync problems.

The only platform that can properly handle 24 fps output is NVIDIA's GeForce 8200/8300. It just works.

Currently the Intel G35/G45 and NVIDIA GeForce 8200/8300 chipsets support 8-channel LPCM output via HDMI. AMD continues to trail with 2-channel LPCM output on their chipsets.


And then from their conclusion...


As for the chipsets we looked at today, it is difficult to declare a true winner at this time, especially given the fact that the new NVIDIA chipsets are launching shortly. However, if we had to choose one chipset for primary HTPC usage, it would be the NVIDIA GeForce 8200.



The drawback for us is the lack of multi-channel LPCM HDMI audio output and not so great 1080P/24 fps playback capabilities. If these items are not important to you, then the 780G would probably be at the top of our list. Of course, these problems can be solved with an inexpensive HD 4550 or HD 4670 video card but that completely throws off the price advantage over the Intel platform


My conclusion based on that: AnandTech doesn't support 780G without a dedicated GPU, and they claim it provides trash playback.

Now...

TOMS HARDWARE REVIEW

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/graphics-blu-ray-video,2030-13.html


Our first conclusion is that if we were considering the purchase of one of these boards for an HTPC, we would strongly lean toward the AMD 780G/Radeon 3200. The board served up 1080p video without the stuttering issues we saw on the Nvidia MCP78S/GeForce 8200 motherboard playing back the demanding H.264 encoded Blu-ray disk.



By our reckoning, this is a deal-breaker. While it’s true that the GeForce 8200 has some better audio playback options, they don’t count for much when the video can’t be played back without stuttering on a dual-core Athlon X2 4800+ CPU.



Don’t get us wrong—the MCP78S is no slouch by any consideration and it’s a great value chipset with really strong graphics capabilities and compelling features like Hybrid Power not found in its 780G competition. But when buying specifically for HD video playback, the 780G is simply the better choice.


Tom's Hardware claims that 8200 does trash playback.

Clearly there's a huge conflicting response here for people looking to build a HTPC. What are your thoughts, aside from the obvious: Go Intel?

[mr_raider]

Different driver revisions, crappy software... who knows.

[Bskll]

I tend to put more weight into anand's musing than i do with tomshardware. Tomshardware is basically a big advertising site for companies to hawk their wares.

IIRC, that specific toms review was done before nvidia updated their drivers for 8200 to properly support 1080p/24. the toms one was done about half a month before the anandtech one.

[nfuz]

IIRC, that specific toms review was done before nvidia updated their drivers for 8200 to properly support 1080p/24. the toms one was done about half a month before the anandtech one.

Hmm ok, well that would help with 1 piece of the puzzle and explain why Tom's trashed Nvidia's 8200... but why praise 780G? How does Anandtech go from Tom's finding of "780G is great" (paraphrasing) to "780G is trash"

I can understand if it went from trash to great over time, but from great to trash?

[joshmxpx]

[QUOTE=nfuz;8003081if both the popular chipsets for AMDs are....crap then kind of limits the buying options... Anyhow...

What are your thoughts, aside from the obvious: Go Intel?[/QUOTE]

Looks like you've already made up your mind. We already know from your HTPC thread that you're hard for Intel, so why did you even start this thread.

I have a AMD 780g chipset in my HTPC, and so far I love it. Never has it chugged playing any 1080 or 720, lack of 8 channel audio is disappointing, but my reciever doesn't support the new formats anyway, so no biggie for me...

[nfuz]

I personally prefer Intel, precisely due to conflicting problems like these as shown in the reviews.

However, if I had already made up my mind, why would I be doing research on AMD? Both these chipsets have nothing to do with intel

Its a fairly cheap alternative, so I figured might as well give it a shot...

[rimi]

Looks like you've already made up your mind. We already know from your HTPC thread that you're hard for Intel, so why did you even start this thread.

I have a AMD 780g chipset in my HTPC, and so far I love it. Never has it chugged playing any 1080 or 720, lack of 8 channel audio is disappointing, but my reciever doesn't support the new formats anyway, so no biggie for me...

Just a question, if you only get 2 channels from the 780g mobo, and you cant get it anyways because of your receiver then how do you actually get 5.1 or 7.1 HD sound?
I dont understand all this sound probs with the 780g boards.

[mr_raider]

No. 780g can't output multi-channel LPCM over HDMI. It can process 5.1 fine over spdif or analog, and handles DTS and Dolby passthrough just fine over HDMI.

This is only an issue when playing Bluray discs with protected content.

By the way, Intel didn't build a half decent IGP until last year, and their new stuff barely has any hardware acceleration for HD to the extent that ATI and Nvidia do. Intel IGPs, other than the new 4500 would not be my choice for anything other than office work.

[rimi]

No. 780g can't output multi-channel LPCM over HDMI. It can process 5.1 fine over spdif or analog, and handles DTS and Dolby passthrough just fine over HDMI.

This is only an issue when playing Bluray discs with protected content.

By the way, Intel didn't build a half decent IGP until last year, and their new stuff barely has any hardware acceleration for HD to the extent that ATI and Nvidia do. Intel IGPs, other than the new 4500 would not be my choice for anything other than office work.


You kinda lost me there...isnt DTS supposed to have multi channels?

[torseller07]

If I am to buy a HTPC motherboard now, I would get nVidia 8200. 780G is crippled by design because it can only output 2 channels LPCM over HDMI. However, if you don't have a TrueHD capable receiver, 780G is cheaper and enough for your need (just need a Toslink to passthrough DTS 5.1).

P.S. I believe AMD still hasn't gotten hardware accelerated VC1 decoding working yet. H.264 seems to be working fine though.

[rimi]

I am kinda leaning towards the 780G chipset because of the edge gaming. Im also more inclined towards the review from AnandTech.

But considering my situation ATM, I should be fine with any of the two chipsets because the HTPC will be connected to my LCD HDTV directly. I dont own a receiver or any speaker setup.

The only reason im planning so much is because I plan on upgrading my setup and the HTPC later this year so I dont want to deal with any issues at that time.

BTW 8200 is cheaper than 780G.

[terrybear]

simply put BOTH nvidia's 8200 & ati's 780G can output audio directly thru the hdmi, cept in ati's case you would get the more advanced sound & up to 7.1 channel surround & effects vs nvidia which is limited to 5.1 based.

So all that ultimatly matters is what your hdmi's sound is going to like if you have a sound system that can do up to 7.1 surround or the sound technoligies that the ati sound supports you should be going for that.

If you don't give a rats azz about the sound itself & ya just want a cheap solution your going to buy the nvidia 9 times out of 10 unless ya plan to use it to game some then your going to want to use the 780g or maybe even the 790gx based amd boards.

Intel has never designed there stuff for more then just general pc usage or business ergo thats why they sell so much of there garbage intergated igp's in systems cause there mainly for buisiness class builds or peaple whom just " surf the net/chat ".

[mr_raider]

You kinda lost me there...isnt DTS supposed to have multi channels?

The audio is encoded in various formats on DVDs and Blurays. Your player can do two things, it can decode it, or it can not decode it.

If it doesn't decode it, the signal gets passed on to your receiver and the receiver will decode.

If does decode it, it can send the audio as analog to your speakers, or as uncompressed LPCM (think of it as a .wav stream instead of the mp3 file) to your receiver.

DVDs use DTS or Dolby Digital which can go up to 5.1 sound. These can be passed through compressed or uncompressed at will be any system.

Blurays and HD-DVDs use newer codecs that have 7.1 channel sound. These CAN NOT be passed through by computers due to content protection issues. The only choice is to decode them and pass the raw PCM data.

Here is my understanding of the current status:

Both 780g/8200g can decode multi-channel audio and send it via analog or optical. Optical is limited to 5.1. Analog is limited to however many holes are on the back your motherboard.

Both can pass through DTS/DD over optical or HDMI to your receiver so it can decode it.

Neither can pass throught the 7.1 codecs to your receiver.

The 8200 can send 7.1 LPCM over HDMI, the 780g can only send 2 channel.

Your TV will not be able to anything with any single more than 2 channels anyway. Unless you have a receiver and a surround sound setup, the issue is moot.

More info:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3411

[terrybear]

The audio is encoded in various formats on DVDs and Blurays. Your player can do two things, it can decode it, or it can not decode it.

If it doesn't decode it, the signal gets passed on to your receiver and the receiver will decode.

If does decode it, it can send the audio as analog to your speakers, or as uncompressed LPCM (think of it as a .wav stream instead of the mp3 file) to your receiver.

DVDs use DTS or Dolby Digital which can go up to 5.1 sound. These can be passed through compressed or uncompressed at will be any system.

Blurays and HD-DVDs use newer codecs that have 7.1 channel sound. These CAN NOT be passed through by computers due to content protection issues. The only choice is to decode them and pass the raw PCM data.

Here is my understanding of the current status:

Both 780g/8200g can decode multi-channel audio and send it via analog or optical. Optical is limited to 5.1. Analog is limited to however many holes are on the back your motherboard.

Both can pass through DTS/DD over optical or HDMI to your receiver so it can decode it.

Neither can pass throught the 7.1 codecs to your receiver.

The 8200 can send 7.1 LPCM over HDMI, the 780g can only send 2 channel.

Your TV will not be able to anything with any single more than 2 channels anyway. Unless you have a receiver and a surround sound setup, the issue is moot.

More info:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3411

I think you got that backwards the ati products can do the 7.1 & nvidia the 2 channel if I read correctly before. If not it might be the Radeon 3300 on the 790GX boards that might be what I'm thinkin is, but I just know that the few reviews I ready have never mentioned nvidia being able to do 7.1 at all.

[ppl4golf]

I think you got that backwards the ati products can do the 7.1 & nvidia the 2 channel if I read correctly before. If not it might be the Radeon 3300 on the 790GX boards that might be what I'm thinkin is, but I just know that the few reviews I ready have never mentioned nvidia being able to do 7.1 at all.

You are wrong sir. Plus, all along, this is about onboard all-in-one and this has been beaten to death.

If 7.1 Lossless PCM sound is important, go Nvidia onboard 8/9s. This is totally moot for many since we don't have the newest HDMI receivers that decodes and not just passthrough.

If price is important, go Nvidia 8's for AMD CPU though it looks like there is no more $30 rebate so it is moot too LOL.

If you want no fuzz good track record that just plain works , go Gigabyte 780G with at least a 2.8GHz dual core in case the hardware acceleration doesn't play nice.

If buying pre-built, go Intel X4500 like the ones from Dell.

[rimi]

I think you got that backwards the ati products can do the 7.1 & nvidia the 2 channel if I read correctly before. If not it might be the Radeon 3300 on the 790GX boards that might be what I'm thinkin is, but I just know that the few reviews I ready have never mentioned nvidia being able to do 7.1 at all.

Well whatever I read is the opposite of what your saying; the NVIDIA can do 7.1 and AMD is limited to 2 channels. I think its even in the first post.
It could be taht im wrong because i have been reading some stuff here and there lately.

[huyla]

Crappy software setup can throw off HD content playback. I tried to follow this one guy on Youtube to setup FFDShow thinking it might be better setup. To my supprise, my CPU usage jumbs to 30-40% from 8-10% while video and audio is out of sync and once in a while it stutters. Don't believe what you see or hear online. Lots of junk.

All you need for smooth HD playback is to use Vista Codec Package 5.0.7 in Windows.

For the love of god..... GO OUT AND BUY WHAT YOU WANT....

If it doesn't turn out to be what you want, just say "Oh well, live and learn.." If it turns out great, pat yourself on the back.

[rimi]

For the love of god..... GO OUT AND BUY WHAT YOU WANT....

If it doesn't turn out to be what you want, just say "Oh well, live and learn.." If it turns out great, pat yourself on the back.

IDK if your saying this to the OP, but im also in the same boat as him.

When you dont have lots of money, its hard to buy first and think later. Thats why I personnaly think first and buy after. Unless its a super special awsome deal.:lol: ATM im tight on cash so I cant experiement with PC parts like you perhaps.

[terrybear]

IDK if your saying this to the OP, but im also in the same boat as him.

When you dont have lots of money, its hard to buy first and think later. Thats why I personnaly think first and buy after. Unless its a super special awsome deal.:lol: ATM im tight on cash so I cant experiement with PC parts like you perhaps.

Well the diffrence is your not being picky about what you want just want what works, vs the op is someone whom likes to make his opinion on things known & that he has no interest in certain companies products cause he views them as " trash investments " cause of a bad batch of product he or some friend of his bought *grinz*

[nfuz]

Crappy software setup can throw off HD content playback. I tried to follow this one guy on Youtube to setup FFDShow thinking it might be better setup. To my supprise, my CPU usage jumbs to 30-40% from 8-10% while video and audio is out of sync and once in a while it stutters. Don't believe what you see or hear online. Lots of junk.

All you need for smooth HD playback is to use Vista Codec Package 5.0.7 in Windows.

For the love of god..... GO OUT AND BUY WHAT YOU WANT....

If it doesn't turn out to be what you want, just say "Oh well, live and learn.." If it turns out great, pat yourself on the back.

I'm sorry, but as much as I appreciated your help in the other thread... this is just stupid. People don't generally go out and buy random stuff HOPING it works, they buy it, with the expectation that it will damn well work.

Most of this stuff will be through online stores as well, so kind of hard to return if it doesn't work.

Not going to spend $400-$500 on a paperweight...

[nfuz]

Also, it was great hearing that detailed explanation on the last page about audio passthrough and decoding, and the different formats supported by each. Learnt a lot from that little blurb!!

However, my concern is still with the initial playback of the actual video... One reputed site says one works and other's trash, another reputed site says the complete opposite :(

[mr_raider]

Well whatever I read is the opposite of what your saying; the NVIDIA can do 7.1 and AMD is limited to 2 channels. I think its even in the first post.

Yes. The situation is reversed in discrete GPU market where ATI 4*** series can send 8 channel LPCM and nvidia can't. Hence the confusion.

BTW, make sure your TV is actually capable of native 1080p before you start worrying about HD and BR content. Many lower end TVs only do 1366x768 resolution.

Honestly, I couldn't care less about Bluray playback, or even DVD playback. I have a cheap 50$ upconverting DVD player for playing DVDs, and when Bluray players go below 100$, I'll get one. My HTPC is only used to play episodes of colbert, prison break or heroes that I record, nad listen to mp3s.

Your needs sound very similar, so get either board and be done with it. Remember that both chipsets support AM2+/Am3 CPUs, so there will be ample opportunity to upgrade in the future. ANd if you must have the latest and greatest in HDMI/hardware/HD/whatnot, spend 50$ and get a discrete GPU later.

[nfuz]

Mr_raider...

regarding the whole audio decoding/passthrough.

All that only applies to PROTECTED content right?

So as far as MKVs go, where the protection has already been ripped apart, the whole audio thing's kind of moot is it not?

[mr_raider]

Mr_raider...

regarding the whole audio decoding/passthrough.

All that only applies to PROTECTED content right?

So as far as MKVs go, where the protection has already been ripped apart, the whole audio thing's kind of moot is it not?

What format is MKV audio encoded in? The answer is in the Anandtech article I linked.

[ppl4golf]

Well the diffrence is your not being picky about what you want just want what works, vs the op is someone whom likes to make his opinion on things known & that he has no interest in certain companies products cause he views them as " trash investments " cause of a bad batch of product he or some friend of his bought *grinz*

I'm sorry, but as much as I appreciated your help in the other thread... this is just stupid. People don't generally go out and buy random stuff HOPING it works, they buy it, with the expectation that it will damn well work.

Most of this stuff will be through online stores as well, so kind of hard to return if it doesn't work.

Not going to spend $400-$500 on a paperweight...

My intention wasn't to entertain you:lol:...there is understandable reason for terrybear to get confused - just as mentioned, onboard nvidia 8200/9400 do 7.1 LPCM thru HDMI but not in my Nvidia 9600GT - I mean WTF???

For a moment, I though I could get LPCM over my 9600GT if I hook up a dongle linking my mobo SPDIF to the video card...but wait, this is going to be as good as SPDIF and that means no LPCM. Not that I care because I am only using a set of Logitech Z-5500.

I don't know about you, but comments from you latest posts suggest you still don't know what you want and sometimes what you're talking about. Getting any one of these most popular HTPC all-in-one mobo is a no loss situation if you want best bang for the buck and in no circumstance they'll be paper weight.

No one has suggested so far - how about just get a PS3 ? Honestly, it's not a bad choice, even I hate Sony as much as I hate Asus :D

[nfuz]

Apparently the link to the MKV file below is a very good stress test for the HTPCs... would love to know if any of your HTPCs can play that smoothly.

My p4 3.0ghz doesn't even load the video!! (My other MKVs play choppily and with audio out of sync) Just goes to a black screen in MPC-HC with no sound, and 100% cpu utlization (lol)

http://rapidshare.com/files/82525583/killa.sampla.x264.mkv.html

[Bskll]

lol, the only good stress test for HTPC is the samsung 1080p test video. Look it up.

[Bskll]

My intention wasn't to entertain you:lol:...there is understandable reason for terrybear to get confused - just as mentioned, onboard nvidia 8200/9400 do 7.1 LPCM thru HDMI but not in my Nvidia 9600GT - I mean WTF???

For a moment, I though I could get LPCM over my 9600GT if I hook up a dongle linking my mobo SPDIF to the video card...but wait, this is going to be as good as SPDIF and that means no LPCM. Not that I care because I am only using a set of Logitech Z-5500.

I don't know about you, but comments from you latest posts suggest you still don't know what you want and sometimes what you're talking about. Getting any one of these most popular HTPC all-in-one mobo is a no loss situation if you want best bang for the buck and in no circumstance they'll be paper weight.

No one has suggested so far - how about just get a PS3 ? Honestly, it's not a bad choice, even I hate Sony as much as I hate Asus :D

lol, does PS3 support the LPCM audio for MKVs? its a nice thought but i'm gonna guess taht the OP wants to record TV shows somewhere down the line in his HTPC quest and PS3 can't do that.

[nfuz]

You are wrong sir.

Short and priceless :)

[huyla]

IDK if your saying this to the OP, but im also in the same boat as him.

When you dont have lots of money, its hard to buy first and think later. Thats why I personnaly think first and buy after. Unless its a super special awsome deal.:lol: ATM im tight on cash so I cant experiement with PC parts like you perhaps.

Rimi, if you really want to invest into HTPC with limited budget, I'd recommend:

Case: Antec Fusion 430 with 430W PSU (http://www.antec.com/usa/productDetails.php?lan=us&id=15740). As the website says it already includes an IR receiver for use with remote control. Some website reports it doesn't have one otherwise.

Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H (http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Products_Overview.aspx?ProductID=2758) This motherboard seems to be good option. For the money, I think this is a good value sub-100 dollar motherboard for HTPC setup. Though it has its own issues. (http://www.overclock.net/htpc/326331-gigabyte-ga-ma78gm-s2h-board-problems.html) with the first rev. of this board. I don't know all these problems have been fixed in the latest rev.

CPU: AMD Athlon X2 Dual-Core 5000+ (ADO5000DDBOX) (http://shopca.amd.com/pi/682-1012830/AMD-Processors/AMD-Athlon-X2-Dual-Core-5000-(ADO5000DDBOX)-Product-Info) This CPU does 1080P playback without a hic-up or any audio sync problem. I even down clock it to keep it cool and whisper quiet.

RAM: Any sub-$50 2x1G DDR2-800 RAM kit will do just fine. If you spend more than 50 bucks for 2G of RAM in HTPC, you're not thinking straight.

HDTV tuner, Remote control (http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10095754&catid=) The remote works out of the box with aforementioned case.

nfuz, forget what i write... this HTPC setup doesn't belong in Intel route

[joshmxpx]

simply put BOTH nvidia's 8200 & ati's 780G can output audio directly thru the hdmi, cept in ati's case you would get the more advanced sound & up to 7.1 channel surround & effects vs nvidia which is limited to 5.1 based.

So all that ultimatly matters is what your hdmi's sound is going to like if you have a sound system that can do up to 7.1 surround or the sound technoligies that the ati sound supports you should be going for that.

If you don't give a rats azz about the sound itself & ya just want a cheap solution your going to buy the nvidia 9 times out of 10 unless ya plan to use it to game some then your going to want to use the 780g or maybe even the 790gx based amd boards.

Intel has never designed there stuff for more then just general pc usage or business ergo thats why they sell so much of there garbage intergated igp's in systems cause there mainly for buisiness class builds or peaple whom just " surf the net/chat ".

backwards, nvidia can do 8 channel through hdmi, ati cannot

The audio is encoded in various formats on DVDs and Blurays. Your player can do two things, it can decode it, or it can not decode it.

If it doesn't decode it, the signal gets passed on to your receiver and the receiver will decode.

If does decode it, it can send the audio as analog to your speakers, or as uncompressed LPCM (think of it as a .wav stream instead of the mp3 file) to your receiver.

DVDs use DTS or Dolby Digital which can go up to 5.1 sound. These can be passed through compressed or uncompressed at will be any system.

Blurays and HD-DVDs use newer codecs that have 7.1 channel sound. These CAN NOT be passed through by computers due to content protection issues. The only choice is to decode them and pass the raw PCM data.

Here is my understanding of the current status:

Both 780g/8200g can decode multi-channel audio and send it via analog or optical. Optical is limited to 5.1. Analog is limited to however many holes are on the back your motherboard.

Both can pass through DTS/DD over optical or HDMI to your receiver so it can decode it.

Neither can pass throught the 7.1 codecs to your receiver.

The 8200 can send 7.1 LPCM over HDMI, the 780g can only send 2 channel.

Your TV will not be able to anything with any single more than 2 channels anyway. Unless you have a receiver and a surround sound setup, the issue is moot.

More info:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3411

great explanation

You are wrong sir. Plus, all along, this is about onboard all-in-one and this has been beaten to death.

If 7.1 Lossless PCM sound is important, go Nvidia onboard 8/9s. This is totally moot for many since we don't have the newest HDMI receivers that decodes and not just passthrough.

If price is important, go Nvidia 8's for AMD CPU though it looks like there is no more $30 rebate so it is moot too LOL.

If you want no fuzz good track record that just plain works , go Gigabyte 780G with at least a 2.8GHz dual core in case the hardware acceleration doesn't play nice.

If buying pre-built, go Intel X4500 like the ones from Dell.

+1

[infamouskid]

the amd chipsets have always been better.

[mr_raider]

Apparently the link to the MKV file below is a very good stress test for the HTPCs... would love to know if any of your HTPCs can play that smoothly.

My p4 3.0ghz doesn't even load the video!! (My other MKVs play choppily and with audio out of sync) Just goes to a black screen in MPC-HC with no sound, and 100% cpu utlization (lol)

http://rapidshare.com/files/82525583/killa.sampla.x264.mkv.html

Take it easy.

I just tested out your "killa sampla" on all my AMD rigs. ANd they all played it flawlessly under windows XP, using Media Player Classic Home Cinema. That's the free program, no fancy PureVideoHD or AvivoHD.

#2 doesn't even have hardware acceleration for HD content:

1. Phenom 9500 @2.2Ghz, 8800GTS
2. X2 4400 @ 2.2Ghz, x1900xt

[nfuz]

Take it easy.

I just tested out your "killa sampla" on all my AMD rigs. ANd they all played it flawlessly under windows XP, using Media Player Classic Home Cinema. That's the free program, no fancy PureVideoHD or AvivoHD.

#2 doesn't even have hardware acceleration for HD content:

1. Phenom 9500 @2.2Ghz, 8800GTS
2. X2 4400 @ 2.2Ghz, x1900xt

Good to know, did you have coreavc installed or ffdshow?

[mr_raider]

Neither. I used MPC's internal codecs.