[Merged] Boxing Day Deals: XS vs XSi vs D40

[nietzsche]

Alright, I know there is approximately 127,543 threads titled "tell me what DSLR to buy guyz" on this forum, but this thread is specifically about the deals in the Future Shop and Best Buy boxing day flyers (and any other boxing day deals as they become available). I'm looking for an entry-level DSLR, but I want something that I'm going to be able to use for a couple years at least and eventually buy lenses for (though I plan to use the kit lens at first so it would be nice if it was decent). The most interesting deals I saw in the flyers were the XS with IS lens for $449.99 (online only), D40 kit for $399.99 (cheapest I've seen it so far without coupons), and the XSi with IS lens and a bunch of accessories (bag, battery grip, extra battery) for $699.99.

My main questions are:
1) Is the IS lens that comes with the XS the same one that comes with the XSi kit? (I'm assuming yes)
2) Is the $250 difference between the XS and XSi justified?
3) Which one would you guys get and why?

Also, if you guys know of any other deals better than the ones I listed, by all means share them. It seems to me that from the listed deals the XS seems like the best deal, but I'm curious to hear input from others. Thanks a lot in advance.

-D

[Kasakato]

I cant speak specifically about the XS or XSi, but I was in a similar situation a few months ago. I ended up choosing Nikon because I liked their zoom lens selection, and iTTL flash ability. I find Canon cameras awkward to hold...not necessary the best thing when your shooting a 5 hour concert with a 70-300.

[TenzoR]

Alright, I know there is approximately 127,543 threads titled "tell me what DSLR to buy guyz" on this forum, but this thread is specifically about the deals in the Future Shop and Best Buy boxing day flyers (and any other boxing day deals as they become available). I'm looking for an entry-level DSLR, but I want something that I'm going to be able to use for a couple years at least and eventually buy lenses for (though I plan to use the kit lens at first so it would be nice if it was decent). The most interesting deals I saw in the flyers were the XS with IS lens for $449.99 (online only), D40 kit for $399.99 (cheapest I've seen it so far without coupons), and the XSi with IS lens and a bunch of accessories (bag, battery grip, extra battery) for $699.99.

My main questions are:
1) Is the IS lens that comes with the XS the same one that comes with the XSi kit? (I'm assuming yes)
2) Is the $250 difference between the XS and XSi justified?
3) Which one would you guys get and why?

Also, if you guys know of any other deals better than the ones I listed, by all means share them. It seems to me that from the listed deals the XS seems like the best deal, but I'm curious to hear input from others. Thanks a lot in advance.

-D

I don't see any question relating to the actual flyer. All you've asked are generic questions that were answered in tons of threads from before.

[nietzsche]

I cant speak specifically about the XS or XSi, but I was in a similar situation a few months ago. I ended up choosing Nikon because I liked their zoom lens selection, and iTTL flash ability. I find Canon cameras awkward to hold...not necessary the best thing when your shooting a 5 hour concert with a 70-300.

Which Nikon did you choose, out of curiousity?

I don't see any question relating to the actual flyer. All you've asked are generic questions that were answered in tons of threads from before.

Sorry if I didn't make it clear enough, but I meant discussion of the cameras and their prices in the context of the deals in the flyers, not questions about the actual flyers themselves. Questions like "is the extra $250 justified" are certainly related to the flyers since I am comparing two specific cameras and prices as opposed to generically asking if the extra money for an XSi is worth it.

[TenzoR]

Sorry if I didn't make it clear enough, but I meant discussion of the cameras and their prices in the context of the deals in the flyers, not questions about the actual flyers themselves. Questions like "is the extra $250 justified" are certainly related to the flyers since I am comparing two specific cameras and prices as opposed to generically asking if the extra money for an XSi is worth it.

Well you can easily search on people's opinion on these camera bodies/lenses because it seems like that's all you really need. As to if it is worth that extra $250 is a question only you can truthfully answer yourself. What may be worth to me, may not apply to you. Either gives us more information about yourself, your skill level, your interest, etc and perhaps we can guide you to a right choice. As of now, it just seems like a hardware pissing contest to decide which camera is better.

[Kasakato]

Which Nikon did you choose, out of curiousity?




D40 with 18-55. The cheap price of the camera allowed me to pick up an SB400 with the camera. The flash alone improves indoor pictures 100x. I then inherited a 50mm f1.8, and bought a 70-300 this past summer. Tomorrow looks like a Tamron 17-50 f2.8 will be joining the family.

[nietzsche]

Well you can easily search on people's opinion on these camera bodies/lenses because it seems like that's all you really need. As to if it is worth that extra $250 is a question only you can truthfully answer yourself. What may be worth to me, may not apply to you. Either gives us more information about yourself, your skill level, your interest, etc and perhaps we can guide you to a right choice. As of now, it just seems like a hardware pissing contest to decide which camera is better.

Well, I have done research on the cameras I mentioned and realize that all of them are basically good cameras, so for me it comes down to value for the money. I disagree that it is irrelevant to ask if it is worth the extra $250 - of course "worth it" varies from person to person, but opinions of others still help me form my own.

But yes, it would be helpful if I gave more background information. I am a student, and don't have an unlimited budget, thus the concern with cost. I wouldn't call myself experienced, but I have been interested in photography for quite some time with point and shoots. The reason I want to buy a DSLR is that I feel I have basically pushed my P&S to the limit in terms of experimenting with its manual settings. The biggest thing I want out of a DSLR is better low-light performance (which my P&S is horrendously bad with), so I guess cameras that are better in this area would be much more attractive to me.

D40 with 18-55. The cheap price of the camera allowed me to pick up an SB400 with the camera. The flash alone improves indoor pictures 100x. I then inherited a 50mm f1.8, and bought a 70-300 this past summer. Tomorrow looks like a Tamron 17-50 f2.8 will be joining the family.

I've heavily considered the D40 as well - how do you find the kit lens? One of the reasons I started considering the XS/XSi over the D40 was that I heard good things about the IS lens. Or do you even use it really?

Thanks for the replies.

[Kasakato]

I've heavily considered the D40 as well - how do you find the kit lens? One of the reasons I started considering the XS/XSi over the D40 was that I heard good things about the IS lens. Or do you even use it really?


Dont expect excellent low-light shots with a DSLR. Consumer grade SLRs have crap high ISO performance, your generally limited to 400-800 without excessive noise. Your looking at D90, $1000+ for better high ISO. Long exposures and better flashes are the best advantage over P&S, in terms of low light, low end SLRs.

I use VR (Nikon's IS) on my 70-300. I find that its useful, but only up to a point. VR/IS do not stop motion, so its only good for still shots. I probably would not benefit from it on the 18-55 as I mainly shoot moving objects or landscapes with it. This is why Im upgrading to the f2.8 lens. I value VR on my 70-300 as the longer focal length requires me to faster shutter speeds, which the VR counteracts.

[nietzsche]

Dont expect excellent low-light shots with a DSLR. Consumer grade SLRs have crap high ISO performance, your generally limited to 400-800 without excessive noise. Your looking at D90, $1000+ for better high ISO. Long exposures and better flashes are the best advantage over P&S, in terms of low light, low end SLRs.

I use VR (Nikon's IS) on my 70-300. I find that its useful, but only up to a point. VR/IS do not stop motion, so its only good for still shots. I probably would not benefit from it on the 18-55 as I mainly shoot moving objects or landscapes with it. This is why Im upgrading to the f2.8 lens. I value VR on my 70-300 as the longer focal length requires me to faster shutter speeds, which the VR counteracts.

My P&S actually allowed up to 30 second shutter speed, so I was able to take some decent low light pictures, but most of them were still pretty grainy. Are you saying the APS-C sensor in the cameras I mentioned vs the smaller P&S sensor won't help much (I don't know enough about sensors to answer that question myself)? I was under the impression that with an IS lens I would be able to take decent low light shots without a long exposure, but maybe I'm mistaken?

Thanks.

[shrugs*]

But even a consumer-grade DSLR will yield much better low light results than a PnS (mainly due to sensor size, IS will help too-- as mentioned, in still shots).

I can't speak for Nikon, but in the Canon-camp low light ISO performance across the consumer-prosumer offerings (Rebel vs the 50D) is near identical.. and will take a solid swing at the pro level bodies with proper usage.

Even 'consumer-grade' bodies are amazingly capable... again, I can't speak for Nikon, but the only real differences between a Rebel and the ##D bodies is a bag of ergonomics (more switches & dials, better build/feel). The hardware behind them is comparable if not the same with minor tweaks that allow them to slot it in a different market.

http://wvs.topleftpixel.com --- primary camera was once a Rebel 350D.

[Kasakato]

My P&S actually allowed up to 30 second shutter speed, so I was able to take some decent low light pictures, but most of them were still pretty grainy. Are you saying the APS-C sensor in the cameras I mentioned vs the smaller P&S sensor won't help much (I don't know enough about sensors to answer that question myself)? I was under the impression that with an IS lens I would be able to take decent low light shots without a long exposure, but maybe I'm mistaken?

Thanks.

Thats certainly not when I meant. If you were to look at an ISO 1600 D40 picture, it would be very grainy. The same picture on something like the D300 would be acceptable. Expect gains over a P&S, but dont except to shoot over 800 with usable pictures.

IS only stabilizes the lens up to 3 stops, allowing a longer shutter speed. A long exposure time is still required. IS simply allows you to hold that longer exposure time handheld.

[KorruptioN]

If you were to look at an ISO 1600 D40 picture, it would be very grainy. The same picture on something like the D300 would be acceptable.

That's not because it's a cheap consumer-level body, but because it's two generations old. The sensor goes even further back if you look at the D70, D50 (and even D100).

[shrugs*]

I just want to share a few shots I've taken with a consumer-grade body (Canon 30D). IMHO, ISO800+ is very usable in any DSLR.

ISO 3200 (software simulated bump from 1600, in camera)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3250/3114234269_59d9664c2b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3115/3115097066_e7ab7229f9.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3142/2947421769_96cea99094_b.jpg

ISO 1600
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3024/3070465474_c0c725228a_b.jpg

ISO 1600 .. the grainiest of the bunch as exposure had to bumped up a few stops.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3136/3031621004_c93fe88312_b.jpg

If you're interested I can post a few ISO 1600 from a 1st generation DSLR (Canon's first DSLR, the D30 from 2001).

[Oni-kun]

I'd say the extra 250 for the XSi is not worth it because their are negligible differences between the XS and XSi

Please refer to this chart
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos1000d/page2.asp

The 1000D = XS

The only differences worth noting is spot metering and the fact that it shoots a little faster in RAW mode if you decide to shoot in burst mode. In my opinion for the average user its not worth the $250. Spot metering would be nice on my XS but its only useful under some circumstances. Another thing is its got 2 more autofocus points but again they're not that useful under most circumstances. In my opinion its not worth the extra $250, the 250 is better spent on a lens. I personally have the XS myself.

I may be wrong but if i recall correctly the Canon sensor performs better on high ISO setting than the Nikon cameras. ISO 1600 is quite acceptable.

Also the 50mm F1.8 Canon Lens is quite cheap $100-$150 and is a great portrait lens for low light situations. I think the Nikon Equivalent is more expensive.

Also note that the D40 needs special lenses because it does not have a focusing motor built into the body.

Here is a pic I took last night ISO 1600 with the 50mm f1.8
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/1081/hamstertq9.jpg

[Kasakato]

That's not because it's a cheap consumer-level body, but because it's two generations old. The sensor goes even further back if you look at the D70, D50 (and even D100).

Ya, your right. But who makes this crappy (err, old) sensor...SONY?!?! :twisted:

[nietzsche]

Thats certainly not when I meant. If you were to look at an ISO 1600 D40 picture, it would be very grainy. The same picture on something like the D300 would be acceptable. Expect gains over a P&S, but dont except to shoot over 800 with usable pictures.

IS only stabilizes the lens up to 3 stops, allowing a longer shutter speed. A long exposure time is still required. IS simply allows you to hold that longer exposure time handheld.

Sorry for misinterpreting your post, it definitely did seem contrary to everything I had read.

But even a consumer-grade DSLR will yield much better low light results than a PnS (mainly due to sensor size, IS will help too-- as mentioned, in still shots).

I can't speak for Nikon, but in the Canon-camp low light ISO performance across the consumer-prosumer offerings (Rebel vs the 50D) is near identical.. and will take a solid swing at the pro level bodies with proper usage.

Even 'consumer-grade' bodies are amazingly capable... again, I can't speak for Nikon, but the only real differences between a Rebel and the ##D bodies is a bag of ergonomics (more switches & dials, better build/feel). The hardware behind them is comparable if not the same with minor tweaks that allow them to slot it in a different market.

http://wvs.topleftpixel.com --- primary camera was once a Rebel 350D.

You mention "Rebel" as if it were one camera. Are you implying that I wouldn't find much difference in IQ between the XS and XSi (I mean, it does have the same image processor and sensor, I'm assuming that the main drawbacks are simply slower shooting speed and 7 point autofocus as opposed to 9, but again, I could be mistaken).

By the way, I used to go to that blog all the time, that's cool that he used to use a 350D.

Oh, and nice shots too.

[shrugs*]

From what I understand, the XS is just the XSi minus a few features to put in the same price bracket as some of the Nikons. Core hardware looks to be similar though and I believe IQ should be as well, if not the same-- Steves Digicam seems to have a pretty good comparison.


http://www.steves-digicams.com/2008_reviews/canon_rebel_xs_pg7.html

the XS seems more like a "detuned" XSi in my opinion. This new model still retains the same 10-megapixel CMOS imaging sensor, ISO 100-1600 sensitivity range and 2.5-inch LCD found on the XTi, but most all of the other features are shared with its big brother. These include Canon's DIGIC III processor, EF-S 18-55mm 1:3.5-5.6 IS (Image Stabilized) kit lens, Live View function, integrated EOS Cleaning and Dust Delete Data Detection systems, LP-E5 Li-ion battery pack, SD/SDHC memory card usage, etc. The exceptions to this are continuous JPEG shooting at 3.0fps until the memory card is full, and an all new 7-point AF system (compared to the 9-point system on the XTi/XSi).

The XS offers the same exposure mode options as found on the XSi too. This means beginners have several "Basic" or Automatic exposure modes to choose from (like Full Auto, Portrait, Landscape, Sports, etc.) that will allow them to capture great shots in almost any situation. For the more experienced users, The XS offers various "Creative" modes, that will let you control as much of the exposure process as you feel comfortable with. These include Program AE, Shutter speed priority (Tv), Aperture priority (Av), full Manual, and Automatic depth-of-field (A-DEP). There are also various Picture Style modes along with 12 Custom Functions that will allow you to further extend you creative abilities. For those who want ultimate control, there's the RAW image capture mode. This combination of User-friendliness and precise control are what make the Rebel series such a great "stepping stone" into the dSLR world. Users can have confidence that they will be able to capture beautiful photographs, regardless of the photographic knowledge.

[nietzsche]

I'd say the extra 250 for the XSi is not worth it because their are negligible differences between the XS and XSi

Please refer to this chart
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos1000d/page2.asp

The 1000D = XS

The only differences worth noting is spot metering and the fact that it shoots a little faster in RAW mode if you decide to shoot in burst mode. In my opinion for the average user its not worth the $250. Spot metering would be nice on my XS but its only useful under some circumstances. Another thing is its got 2 more autofocus points but again they're not that useful under most circumstances. In my opinion its not worth the extra $250, the 250 is better spent on a lens. I personally have the XS myself.

I may be wrong but if i recall correctly the Canon sensor performs better on high ISO setting than the Nikon cameras. ISO 1600 is quite acceptable.

Also the 50mm F1.8 Canon Lens is quite cheap $100-$150 and is a great portrait lens for low light situations. I think the Nikon Equivalent is more expensive.

Also note that the D40 needs special lenses because it does not have a focusing motor built into the body.

Here is a pic I took last night ISO 1600 with the 50mm f1.8
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/1081/hamstertq9.jpg

Sorry, didn't see your reply. This is what I assumed. I also think that the slower RAW shooting speed would rarely, if ever, be an issue... at least for me at this point.

And thanks for mentioning the lack of focusing motor in the D40. I actually remember talking to a friend about his D40, and he considered it an advantage because it meant longer battery life (at least, according to him) ;). Though, in retrospect, I don't really see how that even makes sense unless he manually focussed the lenses.

[shrugs*]

Speaking of manual focus, the Nikons have much better support for older lenses. Canon pretty much snuffed their old FD lenses, there are adapters available but usually either hinder quality or don't allow infinity focus.

Other mounts seem to work well through adapters though (Pentax screw mount and some others). Not sure if you're interested in playing around with old hardware, but it's always food for thought when working with a budget.

[nietzsche]

From what I understand, the XS is just the XSi minus a few features to put in the same price bracket as some of the Nikons. Core hardware looks to be similar though and I believe IQ should be as well, if not the same-- Steves Digicam seems to have a pretty good comparison.


http://www.steves-digicams.com/2008_reviews/canon_rebel_xs_pg7.html

That's interesting... it seems kind of odd that Canon would release such a similar DSLR. I guess the 7 point autofocus must have significantly reduced the production cost or something.

[TenzoR]

Have you even tried each of the dSLR? It could all come down to comfortability.
Which one is the most comfortable to use? You have to want to hold your dSLR. Try them out, although they look similar they are very different once you held them and use them. Also are there any specific features you looking for?

I'm not going to repeat what everyone said about the performance as I don't think that's important. All three camera are very capable. If it was me, I buy the cheapest and just get into the hobby. After a couple years (maybe sooner) using the dSLR, you'll figure out what you actually want.

[nietzsche]

Speaking of manual focus, the Nikons have much better support for older lenses. Canon pretty much snuffed their old FD lenses, there are adapters available but usually either hinder quality or don't allow infinity focus.

Other mounts seem to work well through adapters though (Pentax screw mount and some others). Not sure if you're interested in playing around with old hardware, but it's always food for thought when working with a budget.

Yeah, appreciate you mentioning that as well. I doubt I'll be using old hardware anytime soon (my dad doesn't have a box full of Canon lenses in his attic or something, unfortunately), but it would kind of suck to find a good deal on one and realize you can't use it really.

[shrugs*]

That's what I'm thinking.. I think the 7 pt is using hw from older models. Easy to manufacture.

[frogger]

Does the XSi not have a newer 12MP sensor vs the XS 10MP sensor from the XTi?

[nietzsche]

Have you even tried each of the dSLR? It could all come down to comfortability.
Which one is the most comfortable to use? You have to want to hold your dSLR. Try them out, although they look similar they are very different once you held them and use them. Also are there any specific features you looking for?

I'm not going to repeat what everyone said about the performance as I don't think that's important. All three camera are very capable. If it was me, I buy the cheapest and just get into the hobby. After a couple years (maybe sooner) using the dSLR, you'll figure out what you actually want.

I've held a D40 and it was definitely comfortable enough. I haven't held a Rebel, but I probably should before ordering one online. I have small-medium sized hands, so it probably shouldn't be an issue, though. I have heard that Nikons are nicer ergnomically, but it probably wouldn't be anything that would discourage me from using it.

[Oni-kun]

That's interesting... it seems kind of odd that Canon would release such a similar DSLR. I guess the 7 point autofocus must have significantly reduced the production cost or something.

It didn't. I'm willing to bet its pretty much the same exact camera but a small piece here and there thats different and a different firmware that turned off some of those features such as spot metering. Or maybe a circuit board with less bandwidth or the digic processor is tuned slower so it can't process raws as quickly.

Oh and btw sure the older Nikon lenses will MOUNT but they will NOT meter or autofocus. Without metering you'd either have to just guess and use the histogram or buy an external meter. I've looked into this before and it seems you can't even stop down meter either in the consumer grade nikon DSLR's cuz the camera turns the light meter off if it doesn't detect a lens with electrical components. To meter properly with older nikon lenses on an DSLR body the cheapest nikon camera you can buy is a used D200 or the irony is you can buy an adaptor and use the older nikon lenses on something like a Rebel XS and it will meter in stop down mode.

[Oni-kun]

Does the XSi not have a newer 12MP sensor vs the XS 10MP sensor from the XTi?

I think the XSi and XS have the same sensor. I could be wrong but I remember reading that using high ISO settings on the XSi is actually a bit grainier than the XS because it has to cram more pixels onto the same sensor

[Kasakato]

I've held a D40 and it was definitely comfortable enough. I haven't held a Rebel, but I probably should before ordering one online. I have small-medium sized hands, so it probably shouldn't be an issue, though. I have heard that Nikons are nicer ergnomically, but it probably wouldn't be anything that would discourage me from using it.

When your using it for a while, it makes a huge difference. I personally cannot stand the XS; the D40 is much more comfortable. Sooner or later your going to end up using it for a long period of time, making ergn. important.

[nietzsche]

When your using it for a while, it makes a huge difference. I personally cannot stand the XS; the D40 is much more comfortable. Sooner or later your going to end up using it for a long period of time, making ergn. important.

I'll make a point of trying it out first. What is it that you can't stand about the XS?

[nuropa]

If you want to get XS, I'd pay the extra $50 and get the $499 package in store deal which gives you the battery grip and extra battery instead of the cheap small tripod. It's $200 less than the XSI package.

[KorruptioN]

Ya, your right. But who makes this crappy (err, old) sensor...SONY?!?! :twisted:

Sony also makes the D3 sensor!

Speaking of manual focus, the Nikons have much better support for older lenses. Canon pretty much snuffed their old FD lenses, there are adapters available but usually either hinder quality or don't allow infinity focus.

Nikon snuffed a lot of users by taking out the AF motor in the D40/60 :| Not everybody is a soccer mom! (:heart: Kasakato)

[nuropa]

I'll make a point of trying it out first. What is it that you can't stand about the XS?

Canon has a smaller grip so it's not as comfortable as the Nikon for many ppl. XS also doesn't have the XSI's rubber layer at the grip. but for $200 less, you can pretty much ignore it. You can buy a handstrap for it and that will give you a secure grip all the time

[nietzsche]

If you want to get XS, I'd pay the extra $50 and get the $499 package in store deal which gives you the battery grip and extra battery instead of the cheap small tripod. It's $200 less than the XSI package.

Is a battery grip actually useful for day-to-day shooting? I can't see myself needing the extra battery life except in extreme circumstances... but it might make it nicer to hold or something.

[Kasakato]

I'll make a point of trying it out first. What is it that you can't stand about the XS?

The finger position on the shutter, and where the rest of my fingers were. Something about it felt awkward and unnatural. With the D40 it feels like gripping a large baseball bat, a position that simply feels better.

[Oni-kun]

Just go to the store and grip them both and see which is more comfortable for you. What anybody says won't matter cuz you don't have the same hands they do.

[nuropa]

Is a battery grip actually useful for day-to-day shooting? I can't see myself needing the extra battery life except in extreme circumstances... but it might make it nicer to hold or something.

it will come in handy. amazon got a pretty good review of it. http://www.amazon.com/Canon-BG-E5-Battery-Digital-Cameras/dp/B0015G58WS

[shrugs*]

It didn't. I'm willing to bet its pretty much the same exact camera but a small piece here and there thats different and a different firmware that turned off some of those features such as spot metering. Or maybe a circuit board with less bandwidth or the digic processor is tuned slower so it can't process raws as quickly.

Oh and btw sure the older Nikon lenses will MOUNT but they will NOT meter or autofocus. Without metering you'd either have to just guess and use the histogram or buy an external meter. I've looked into this before and it seems you can't even stop down meter either in the consumer grade nikon DSLR's cuz the camera turns the light meter off if it doesn't detect a lens with electrical components. To meter properly with older nikon lenses on an DSLR body the cheapest nikon camera you can buy is a used D200 or the irony is you can buy an adaptor and use the older nikon lenses on something like a Rebel XS and it will meter in stop down mode.

Damn, didn't know about the no metering.. very lame the normal stepping down metering tricks don't work.

Is a battery grip actually useful for day-to-day shooting? I can't see myself needing the extra battery life except in extreme circumstances... but it might make it nicer to hold or something.

I'm a big grip fanboy, gives your right hand a lot more space - especially on Rebels. Also helps with forward-heavy balance (very noticeable with the big lenses).

[nietzsche]

Thanks for the very informative replies everybody, looks like I have some camera-touching to do before boxing day.

[pureangst]

Hello,

I was in a similar situation when I wanted to pick up photography as a hobby. I now use a rebel XT (350D), along with 18-55mm (older non-IS), 55-250mm IS, 50mm 1.8, and just got a new sigma 10-20mm.

XS is rebranded XSi (compare specs, review of the XS at dpreview.com; canon has always had low iso 'grain' noise). 7 vs 9 AF points isn't a big deal (I tend to use the center AF and rarely let the camera decide what to focus on). The only thing I would find handy is the spot metering on the XSi that allows precise auto exposure. is it worth $250 more? not really...

If you are looking for cheap entry into DSLR, my opinion is go with canon, and get the cheaper XS, here's why:

You can save the $250 for lenses (start with 50mm 1.8 you will be amazed at bokeh and low light shots - Blacks has it for ~$120, or get it used). The kit 18-55 IS is very good (see reviews at photozone.de) and IS is great for many situations.

One previously big attraction Nikon had was their 18-200 VR lens, but now canon also has the 18-200 IS so the field is level (~$700!). the 55-250 IS can also be found for $350 (photoprice.ca) and that will provide good tele coverage; the 3.5/4-stop improvement with IS is significant!

Remember the lens (and the photographer) play a much bigger role than the camera in producing good shots. One of the main reasons I chose canon was the bigger user base and hence larger second-hand pool to dip into (craigslist!).

There are many other accessories you can buy later on (aux flash, etc) but you will have your basics covered by 18-55, 50 1.8 (portrait, low light). I find I rarely use tripod, it's bulky and I encounter much more hostility with tripod than without, getting kicked out of establishments.

Spare battery is inexpensive (dealextreme ~$10) and you can always find people selling grips for cheap too. The XS also uses SD cards and they are dirt cheap (eg. canadacomputers).

someone mentioned FD lenses being incompatible with the EF/EF-S system; I am not sure how relevant a 20-year old system is to modern DSLRs; FD has no AF, no lens info, etc.

Lastly remember you are buying into a lens system, the XS can accept all canon EF and EF-S lenses while the D40 has a more limited selection due to lack of focus motor. I also notice that canon lenses are slightly cheaper than nikon ones, which you might consider as your experience broadens and you find new lens needs.

Anyway best of luck with your camera choice, it's the first step on the road to lens addiction.

[habsfan93]

I picked up an XS about a month and a half ago, and can say that I love it personally. I looked at the XSi, and for many of the same reasons stated, felt it was not worth the extra money at this point, given that I am new to DSLRs. I'd rather learn on the XS, then maybe in a year or two make the bigger upgrade to a D40/D50/whatever is new then.

With regards to backwards compatibility, its better than you might think. Here's a story: Sunday night, I was at my gf's parents' house and the subject of photography came up with her father. I told him about my new DSLR, and he then pulled out his 20 year old film SLR, with a 35-135 EF lens (the kit lens that he got 20 years ago). Gave it to me to bring home and try it out on my camera for a few months (I think he's curious to know if it will work as he may go out and buy his own DSLR if the results are good). So I brought the lens home, and it works like a charm! I wasn't planning to buy a zoom anytime soon, but this will give me good range beyond the 18-55 IS kit lens for my upcoming vacation.

[rdmsgirl]

I've been lurking , and find this topic very informative...
Does anyone know if Henry's or any of the similar stores will PM FS/BB?

[Kasakato]

I've been lurking , and find this topic very informative...
Does anyone know if Henry's or any of the similar stores will PM FS/BB?

Both Henrys and Blacks generally will.

[zoomzoom]

If you're looking in the Nikon line, and if you're close to a Vistek, on Dec 26, they will have a D60 w/18-55mm VR DX lens for $499.95. The ad says there is only 10/store.

[nietzsche]

Hello,

I was in a similar situation when I wanted to pick up photography as a hobby. I now use a rebel XT (350D), along with 18-55mm (older non-IS), 55-250mm IS, 50mm 1.8, and just got a new sigma 10-20mm.

XS is rebranded XSi (compare specs, review of the XS at dpreview.com; canon has always had low iso 'grain' noise). 7 vs 9 AF points isn't a big deal (I tend to use the center AF and rarely let the camera decide what to focus on). The only thing I would find handy is the spot metering on the XSi that allows precise auto exposure. is it worth $250 more? not really...

If you are looking for cheap entry into DSLR, my opinion is go with canon, and get the cheaper XS, here's why:

You can save the $250 for lenses (start with 50mm 1.8 you will be amazed at bokeh and low light shots - Blacks has it for ~$120, or get it used). The kit 18-55 IS is very good (see reviews at photozone.de) and IS is great for many situations.

One previously big attraction Nikon had was their 18-200 VR lens, but now canon also has the 18-200 IS so the field is level (~$700!). the 55-250 IS can also be found for $350 (photoprice.ca) and that will provide good tele coverage; the 3.5/4-stop improvement with IS is significant!

Remember the lens (and the photographer) play a much bigger role than the camera in producing good shots. One of the main reasons I chose canon was the bigger user base and hence larger second-hand pool to dip into (craigslist!).

There are many other accessories you can buy later on (aux flash, etc) but you will have your basics covered by 18-55, 50 1.8 (portrait, low light). I find I rarely use tripod, it's bulky and I encounter much more hostility with tripod than without, getting kicked out of establishments.

Spare battery is inexpensive (dealextreme ~$10) and you can always find people selling grips for cheap too. The XS also uses SD cards and they are dirt cheap (eg. canadacomputers).

someone mentioned FD lenses being incompatible with the EF/EF-S system; I am not sure how relevant a 20-year old system is to modern DSLRs; FD has no AF, no lens info, etc.

Lastly remember you are buying into a lens system, the XS can accept all canon EF and EF-S lenses while the D40 has a more limited selection due to lack of focus motor. I also notice that canon lenses are slightly cheaper than nikon ones, which you might consider as your experience broadens and you find new lens needs.

Anyway best of luck with your camera choice, it's the first step on the road to lens addiction.

Thanks a lot for the informative post.

I picked up an XS about a month and a half ago, and can say that I love it personally. I looked at the XSi, and for many of the same reasons stated, felt it was not worth the extra money at this point, given that I am new to DSLRs. I'd rather learn on the XS, then maybe in a year or two make the bigger upgrade to a D40/D50/whatever is new then.

With regards to backwards compatibility, its better than you might think. Here's a story: Sunday night, I was at my gf's parents' house and the subject of photography came up with her father. I told him about my new DSLR, and he then pulled out his 20 year old film SLR, with a 35-135 EF lens (the kit lens that he got 20 years ago). Gave it to me to bring home and try it out on my camera for a few months (I think he's curious to know if it will work as he may go out and buy his own DSLR if the results are good). So I brought the lens home, and it works like a charm! I wasn't planning to buy a zoom anytime soon, but this will give me good range beyond the 18-55 IS kit lens for my upcoming vacation.

Cool story. That's also what I was planning to do, upgrade to a 40D or whatever is good at that point once I know what I'm doing in 1-2 years.

The XSi kit is now being sold for $629.99 in Future Shop's new flyer, but for the reasons discussed (i.e. putting the extra money towards a lens), I still think the $499.99 XS kit with extra battery and battery grip is more attractive. I'm going out today to try holding both of the cameras in-store.

[MasZakrY]

I have seen these types of discussions before but those were a Canon vs Nikon bias slugfest.

Ken Rockwell loves the D40 and from everything I've seen it do, it really is hard not to be of the same mind. The Canon brings some interesting features to the table but which one comes out on top?

Essentially I've come to make this list:

-D40 6mp = sensor able to best a xs in picture quality
-D40 very solid construction, comfortable and light (xs is lighter)
-xs is very plasticy
-D40 is quiet as heck, xs whines like a baby
-D40 can only use AF-S lenses to AF
-Canon lenses are plentiful and can use just about everything out there to AF
-liveview is a practical joke feature
-I never shoot in burst
-xs and D40's lenses are plastic and feel like garbage - take good pictures though.
-never shoot telephoto and I don't have Parkinsons so IS/VR is moot.
-7 focus points vs 3 is a crapshoot. I hope nobody actually uses these things.
-D40 is $399 and xs is $509

It may look like I am biased towards Nikon, so give me some Canon points to bring me around!

[jdmkidd]

sorry to hi-jack but where is the D40 $399!

[MasZakrY]

sorry to hi-jack but where is the D40 $399!

http://www.adencamera.com/index.asp?Category=6

Just PM FS/BB, Blacks or Henry's. Blacks and Henry's throw in 30 day price protection and a few other benefits and FS/BB may do 10% off the difference. FS is $470, so $70 difference = $7 more savings.

[KorruptioN]

I have seen these types of discussions before but those were a Canon vs Nikon bias slugfest.

Ken Rockwell loves the D40 and from everything I've seen it do, it really is hard not to be of the same mind. The Canon brings some interesting features to the table but which one comes out on top?

Essentially I've come to make this list:

-D40 6mp = sensor able to best a xs in picture quality
-D40 very solid construction, comfortable and light (xs is lighter)
-xs is very plasticy
-D40 is quiet as heck, xs whines like a baby
-D40 can only use AF-S lenses to AF
-Canon lenses are plentiful and can use just about everything out there to AF
-liveview is a practical joke feature
-I never shoot in burst
-xs and D40's lenses are plastic and feel like garbage - take good pictures though.
-never shoot telephoto and I don't have Parkinsons so IS/VR is moot.
-7 focus points vs 3 is a crapshoot. I hope nobody actually uses these things.
-D40 is $399 and xs is $509

It may look like I am biased towards Nikon, so give me some Canon points to bring me around!

Sony A200. Check it out.

[Kasakato]

Sony A200. Check it out.

:lol: Check out Nikon's flash line (SB500, 600, 800)!

[KorruptioN]

:lol: Check out Nikon's flash line (SB500, 600, 800)!

:confused:

[nuropa]

I have seen these types of discussions before but those were a Canon vs Nikon bias slugfest.

Ken Rockwell loves the D40 and from everything I've seen it do, it really is hard not to be of the same mind. The Canon brings some interesting features to the table but which one comes out on top?

Essentially I've come to make this list:

-D40 6mp = sensor able to best a xs in picture quality
-D40 very solid construction, comfortable and light (xs is lighter)
-xs is very plasticy
-D40 is quiet as heck, xs whines like a baby
-D40 can only use AF-S lenses to AF
-Canon lenses are plentiful and can use just about everything out there to AF
-liveview is a practical joke feature
-I never shoot in burst
-xs and D40's lenses are plastic and feel like garbage - take good pictures though.
-never shoot telephoto and I don't have Parkinsons so IS/VR is moot.
-7 focus points vs 3 is a crapshoot. I hope nobody actually uses these things.
-D40 is $399 and xs is $509

It may look like I am biased towards Nikon, so give me some Canon points to bring me around!


Liveview isn't as easy to use as P&S camera or the Sony DSLR, but it has its uses. 10x zoom in Liveview is good for manual focus. I used it couple times and it worked out pretty well.

No one is buying Xs at 509, at least I hope not. it's around 450 or lower with latest prices and it gets you the IS lens kit. Nikon D40 is stuck at around $400 with no VR.

[MasZakrY]

Credit goes to Korruption for this find:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnwf2RShNV0

Just amazing.

[Kasakato]

Credit goes to Korruption for this find:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnwf2RShNV0

Just amazing.

Im going to +1 that. The D3x is the most overpriced camera ever. (...did I mention it has a Sony sensor. :twisted: )

[nietzsche]

Credit goes to Korruption for this find:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnwf2RShNV0

Just amazing.

Lmao.

By the way, I went to check out the D40/XS/XSi in-store. After how "plasticy" everyone has said the XS and XSi feel, I was pleasantly surprised to find that they actually feel very solid (at least to me), especially with the battery grip. I did notice the awkward placement of the shutter button, and do agree that the D40 is nicer to hold, but I don't think the XS is anywhere near as bad as people have been saying. It could be the size of my hands, but I don't find the small grip awkward, though I do have decent length fingers so I have to curl my index finger to reach the shutter button a bit. This problem is almost completely fixed when I use the battery grip though (which admittedly I won't be using all the time, but even so). And frankly, the XS feels just as comfortable as the XSi, the extra rubber parts don't do much for me.

[pureangst]

I've never really understood why some people make a huge fuss about one brand's body feeling really cheap vs. another, especially when they are all entry-level models; of course the XS is gonna feel less 'substantial' and 'pro' than a $1200 50D or a $4000 5D.

What's more important is what you want your camera (and by extension, the brand's line-up of lenses) to do. For example, if you were debating on buying an Xbox 360 vs. PS3, are you going to be swayed simply by controller ergonomics when it's the games (both released and in development) that matter?

Also there's another deal to consider:
Henrys: Rebel XT (350D) + 18-55 IS lens $350. (apparently it's 350D body with the newer 18-55 IS).
http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=678090

[KorruptioN]

I've never really understood why some people make a huge fuss about one brand's body feeling really cheap vs. another, especially when they are all entry-level models; of course the XS is gonna feel less 'substantial' and 'pro' than a $1200 50D or a $4000 5D.

What's more important is what you want your camera (and by extension, the brand's line-up of lenses) to do. For example, if you were debating on buying an Xbox 360 vs. PS3, are you going to be swayed simply by controller ergonomics when it's the games (both released and in development) that matter?

Because it is possible to create a small body that works well in your hands. For me, my pinky finger just hangs uselessly off the bottom of the Rebel bodies, and the small grip doesn't feel natural. This is important for me as I often find myself holding the body for hours on end.

Pretty much everybody other than Canon is able to produce a smartly-designed body. The Rebels do improve when you attach the vertical grip, but that's more cost, more weight, and more size.

[noway]

Differences Between XS and XSi:

http://www.digicamhelp.com/blogs/random-thoughts/xsi-xs.php

[rdmsgirl]

Both Henrys and Blacks generally will.

Thanks - picked up the D40 at Black's :D. I actually did hold both the Canon and the Nikon - the d40 felt better in my hands. When I asked about pricematch, the sales guy said no problem and matched the $399 price at Aden camera. Probably not a "hot" deal, but I got a $200 mall gift card for Christmas so I really only spent $200.

[Kasakato]

Thanks - picked up the D40 at Black's :D. I actually did hold both the Canon and the Nikon - the d40 felt better in my hands. When I asked about pricematch, the sales guy said no problem and matched the $399 price at Aden camera. Probably not a "hot" deal, but I got a $200 mall gift card for Christmas so I really only spent $200.

$400 for the kit is a decent price, and your gift cards make the deal even better. Good choice!

[MasZakrY]

I ended up getting a Sony A200. Given my strong bias towards Nikon, this choice was strongly influenced by a few factors:

-Quality (metal mount, great quality feel, sturdy)
-Features (antishake in body, AF in body, lots of on the fly adjustments)
-Weight (light: in the same league as D40 and xs/xsi)
-Ergonomics (the most comfortable of the D40, xs/xsi)
-Great picture quality
-Lens selection (ANY post 1985 Minolta/Sony lens will work and get image stabilization, metering and if it is a AF lens, AF will work!)
-Price (only $380!)

[bang]

I was also looking for a dslr this boxing day, and ended up ordering the Canon XS online
http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10116845&catid

It comes with an extra battery, grip, and case, and seems to be worth the price. I went in store and it felt fine in hand.
It was the best deal I could find.