Switzerland: A Suicidal Haven?

[Nikita]

Interesting article. I'd be interested to hear people's opinions on this. I added in the video link if anyone's interested in watching...it is graphic and really sad, although you don't actually see him die. What you can see is no reluctance on his part in taking the drug that would kill him. This was an obviously well-thought out decision on the part of he and his wife.

http://news.aol.ca/article/tv-suicide-shines-spotlight-on-switzerland-a-suicidal-haven/455631/

Switzerland: A Suicidal Haven?
Source: The Associated Press
Posted: 12/14/08 3:06PM
Filed Under: World
By FRANK JORDANS

SCHWERZENBACH, Switzerland (AP) — Twice a week, on average, in a nondescript building by the railroad tracks, a foreigner comes to die.

Most are terminally ill. Some are young and physically healthy except for a permanent disability or severe, debilitating mental disorder.

Drawn by Switzerland's reputation as a trouble-free place for foreigners to end their lives, more than 100 Germans, Britons, French, Americans and others come to this small commuter town just east of Zurich each year to lie down on a bed in an industrial park building and drink a lethal dose of barbiturates.

Now the country's suicide practices are under the spotlight after British TV last week showed Craig Ewert, a 59-year-old Chicago man with a severe form of motor neuron disease, killing himself in Switzerland two years ago.

Other countries, including the Netherlands, Belgium, and Oregon and Washington in the U.S., have recently passed laws allowing the incurably sick to seek out a doctor who — under tightly regulated circumstances — can hasten their death.

But only Switzerland, in a law dating back to 1942, permits foreigners to come and kill themselves, placing few restrictions on the how, when and why. Doctors have relative freedom to prescribe a veterinary drug for that very purpose.

Link to Video (please note the video is graphic and AOL accepts no responsibility for any trauma/disturbance resulting from watching):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OC1Af4eKbM

Craig Ewert assisted suicide on UK television

Five minutes after drinking a glass of water laced with sodium pentobarbital, they fall asleep.

Death follows about half an hour later.

Like Ewert, most foreigners turn to Dignitas, one of several Swissorganizations dedicated to the cause. Dignitas' founder, Ludwig A. Minelli, has built the group into a thriving nonprofit operation.

Critics accuse it of turning Switzerland into a magnet for so-called "suicide tourism," and of operating on the fringes of medical ethics and public opinion.

Dr. Bertrand Kiefer, editor-in-chief of the Revue Medicale Suisse, a medical journal, fears some people are killing themselves not to escape intolerable suffering but to relieve family or society of a burden.

Dignitas says its members' right to self-determination is paramount. The only criteria for assisting a suicide are that the person "suffers from an illness that inevitably leads to death, or from an unacceptable disability, and wants to end their life and suffering voluntarily."

Kiefer also says assisted-groups lack financial transparency.

Dignitas says it charges 10,000 Swiss francs ($8,300) for its services, which include taking care of legal formalities and arranging consultations with a doctor willing to prescribe the deadly medicine. The group says it pays its staff salaries and invests any profit in its advocacy and counseling work, which includes suicide prevention efforts.

Other such organizations in Switzerland say they are cheaper and do not charge the patient directly, relying instead on membership fees and donations.

"We need to ensure that there's no economic incentive for these organizations to encourage people to commit suicide," says Kiefer.

A small religious party is campaigning to ban groups from charging for their services — an idea which the pugnacious Minelli calls the product of "sick brains."

Officials in the canton of Zurich threatened to restrict their activities by making doctors see each patient more than once, and by limiting the supply of sodium pentobarbital. So some groups hoarded the drug and Dignitas turned to alternative methods, coming under scrutiny this spring after it was reported they were suffocating people with plastic bags and helium.

The bag is placed over the head of a person who then opens a flow of helium, falls into a coma and dies "in 99.9 percent of cases," according to Derek Humphry, a British author whose suicide manual "Final Exit" has sold at least a million copies.

The canton of Zurich examined the practice and found in May that the group had done nothing illegal. But the use of helium smacked to many Swiss of Nazi gas chambers, and made Minelli a tabloid hate figure — a sentiment widely shared in Schwerzenbach.

Like most Swiss, the townspeople support the principle of assisted suicide, but "the helium was the last straw," says Manfred Milz, who is evicting Dignitas from his building.

It has to leave by June — its third move in two years. Dignitas previously used a private home, hotel rooms, even mobile homes.

But demand continues to grow, Dignitas says, and its membership has reached nearly 6,000 over the past decade. Some are merely supporters of its work, others intend to die with its help when the time comes.

The government is weighing rules that could spell the end for "suicide tourism," which James Harris of London-based Dignity in Dying, would only mean more agonizing suicides, often botched.

Bernard Sutter, a spokesman for Exit, Switzerland's largest assisted-suicide group, which only helps Swiss residents, says other countries should change their laws.

"We can't solve all the problems of Germany, England, France and Italy," he said.

[65505201]

IMO, if a person wishes to die, it's their decision to make. Better it be done in a controlled setting than in front of a train or off a bridge.

Besides....if it's death by suffocation in Swiss boobies, I may actually give it a second thought....

[Tijuana]

IMO, if a person wishes to die, it's their decision to make. Better it be done in a controlled setting than in front of a train or off a bridge.


Only if its a decision made when the person is in the right state of mind. But generally yes, it shouldn't matter where and its wrong to blame Switzerland in anyway, because people dont kill themselves because of Switzerland, they just do it there.

[Hugh Jass]

A very sad video.

I agree with the above comments, if one wishes it, it should be a right.

[UrbanPoet]

Hmm... how about people with a debilitating mental illness? Their view of reality might be so severely distorted that they want to kill themselves... Otherwise they have a chance to live a productive life with the proper support and treatment.

[iamtoldtherewillbenomath]

That's a very small part of an hour long documentary that aired on CTV a number of months ago.

It was a very interesting, balanced documentary - I think (iirc) they did actually show the death of Craig Ewart. The documentary also featured stories on others who had their requests for assisted suicide refused.

The main point of the documentary is to demonstrate that these people do not do this on a "whim" - there are waiting periods, psychiatric assessments and a substantial financial impact, amongst other significant hurdles. The documentary also features their life, the challenges and pain they are living with, and how their family is involved.

If you have a chance to view the entire documentary, I highly recommend it. It is certainly one of the most powerful, moving things I've even seen on TV.

[chrza]

I don't want to watch the video. But, I think people should most certainly have the right to die if they so choose. But ya, i'd have to agree that they would need to be in the right state of mind, obviously. Who determines that is a different story.

[ruhroh]

I'm all for assisted suicide (so long as person is in right mind, etc etc). I've heard about this a while back, but didn't know there was a documentary :O

That helium suffocation, though... I don't think I'd be very happy at being suffocated with helium, it sounds so traumatizing when your death should be peaceful. I prefer the death drink. Reminds me of Soylent Green.

[akbar_k]

I don't see the problem with killing yourself. It's sadness and desperation that I have a problem with, and those things you can do something about. Reach out to someone you know who's down and out, and lend a helping hand. But when the time comes, if it comes, and you know it's time to check out, such is life.

[manixc]

I think suicide is the easy way out unless there's an extreme good reason (i.e. terminal illness, etc. but who's going to decide that?).
Then, again it's someone's else life and they should decide how they want to live or end it.

[ali123]

Imo Most people who commit suicide are not in the right state of mind and this just makes it easier for them. I don't have any problem with them ending their own life but I'm not in support of assisted suicide. If something like this becomes the norm imagine how much the rate would go up.

[watching]

Assisted murder is what it should be called. Suicide is murdering yourself, so if someone helps you that someone is an assistant murderer. If someone wants to go out that way, who's stopping them in the privacy of their own home and why do they need someone else to share the guilt?

[flexwong]

unfortunately, suicide is something every city deals with on very frequent basis. we just never hear about it because newspapers/tv stations aren't allowed to publish stories regarding suicide. it triggers a mass effect (can't remember the exact term) and past experience has shown that within 3 days of publishing a story about a suicide, suicide rates jump up drastically. it's really disturbing to think about people going to switzerland just to end their own life. i've always rather had a positive view of the swiss being so peaceful and happy in their little villages and towns.

[chrza]

Assisted murder is what it should be called. Suicide is murdering yourself, so if someone helps you that someone is an assistant murderer. If someone wants to go out that way, who's stopping them in the privacy of their own home and why do they need someone else to share the guilt?

Oh god... It's not murder. You're consenting to it. Some people want to do it in the privacy of their own home, some people want to do it in a building in Switzerland. What does it matter to you?

And why should it be guilt that they feel? Some people endure unbearable pain everyday of their lives, pain that hopefully none of us will ever know. And you think they should keep going through that just to make you feel better? That's pretty twisted.

For someone who is say, terminally ill and suffering, I see it as help. Some people don't have the proper means or help to do it painlessly. Some people don't want to leave themselves to be found unexpectedly and shock people. So it's obvious why some people go to this place to do it.

[BadDrafter]

unfortunately, suicide is something every city deals with on very frequent basis. We just never hear about it because newspapers/tv stations aren't allowed to publish stories regarding suicide. It triggers a mass effect (can't remember the exact term) and past experience has shown that within 3 days of publishing a story about a suicide, suicide rates jump up drastically. It's really disturbing to think about people going to switzerland just to end their own life. I've always rather had a positive view of the swiss being so peaceful and happy in their little villages and towns.


+1

[Instagator]

All you "right to live" advocates should really shove your own words in your ass.

I agree, if the person is "MENTALLY" ill and does not know the difference from left to right then he's probably mentaly unstable to make the correct descision about life. HOWEVER there's a difference if someone suffers from a fatal disease. For instance, if someone has ALS where most of the muscles have atrophied and can't move why not end your life. Your mind is not affected by this disease but your muscles are gone. You can't breath on your own. You can't feed yourself, you'll be bed ridden all your life (for however long you live) and you'll play a financial and mental toll on your family. You are stuck in your own jail. AT THAT point you should be able to end your own life if you wished it.

[Instagator]

oh god... It's not murder. You're consenting to it. Some people want to do it in the privacy of their own home, some people want to do it in a building in switzerland. What does it matter to you?

And why should it be guilt that they feel? Some people endure unbearable pain everyday of their lives, pain that hopefully none of us will ever know. And you think they should keep going through that just to make you feel better? That's pretty twisted.

For someone who is say, terminally ill and suffering, i see it as help. Some people don't have the proper means or help to do it painlessly. Some people don't want to leave themselves to be found unexpectedly and shock people. So it's obvious why some people go to this place to do it.

+1.

[Nikita]

Hmm... how about people with a debilitating mental illness? Their view of reality might be so severely distorted that they want to kill themselves... Otherwise they have a chance to live a productive life with the proper support and treatment.

Any system that allows for assisted suicide will (and does where it exists) require a psych assessment before one can consent. If one is incapable of making decisions, they wouldn't be able to legally consent, just as one cannot sign a POA unless they are mentally competent to do so. The post below by iamtoldtherewillbenomath expands more on the procudures one would have to go through before being allowed to consent.

That's a very small part of an hour long documentary that aired on CTV a number of months ago.

It was a very interesting, balanced documentary - I think (iirc) they did actually show the death of Craig Ewart. The documentary also featured stories on others who had their requests for assisted suicide refused.

The main point of the documentary is to demonstrate that these people do not do this on a "whim" - there are waiting periods, psychiatric assessments and a substantial financial impact, amongst other significant hurdles. The documentary also features their life, the challenges and pain they are living with, and how their family is involved.

If you have a chance to view the entire documentary, I highly recommend it. It is certainly one of the most powerful, moving things I've even seen on TV.

Imo Most people who commit suicide are not in the right state of mind and this just makes it easier for them. I don't have any problem with them ending their own life but I'm not in support of assisted suicide. If something like this becomes the norm imagine how much the rate would go up.

Really? How would you know this? Or is this just your opinion based on a lack of facts?

Assisted murder is what it should be called. Suicide is murdering yourself, so if someone helps you that someone is an assistant murderer. If someone wants to go out that way, who's stopping them in the privacy of their own home and why do they need someone else to share the guilt?

LOL...are you freakin serious? If you're using murder in the legal sense (and really what other sense is there, murder is a legal term) you just wrong, as usual. In fact there is no law against suicide, so how do you arrive at this 'suicide is murder' stuff...murder is culpable homicide...not culpuable suicide (since suicide is not illegal, there is no such thing as culpable suicide)...suicide is suicide, not culpable homicide, and murder is murder. Stop mixing your metaphors.

Really, watching, you shouldn't throw around terms that you don't know the meaning of to support an argument, cuz all that does is weaken your argument. 'Suicide is murdering yourself'...pffftt...do you just make this stuff up as you go along. Or do you just think you know the law better than you do (that was a hypothetical question that requires no answer, cuz the answer is obvious)?

Who's stopping them in their own home without help? Umm, lets see, people who are so sick they can't physically do what is required to kill themselves alone. MLS comes to mind, where the muscles are so atrophied you can't even put pills in your mouth by yourself, let alone hook up an IV or administer a drug through a needle. Numerous conditions that cause people to want to die are the very conditions that prevent them from doing it themselves. Most of those conditions, and the inabilities to live, die or do for yourself, are the very reason that these people want to die.

[Instagator]

Any system that allows for assisted suicide will (and does where it exists) require a psych assessment before one can consent. If one is incapable of making decisions, they wouldn't be able to legally consent, just as one cannot sign a POA unless they are mentally competent to do so. The post below by iamtoldtherewillbenomath expands more on the procudures one would have to go through before being allowed to consent.





Really? How would you know this? Or is this just your opinion based on a lack of facts?



LOL...are you freakin serious? If you're using murder in the legal sense (and really what other sense is there, murder is a legal term) you just wrong, as usual. In fact there is no law against suicide, so how do you arrive at this 'suicide is murder' stuff...murder is culpable homicide...not culpuable suicide (since suicide is not illegal, there is no such thing as culpable suicide)...suicide is suicide, not culpable homicide, and murder is murder. Stop mixing your metaphors.

Really, watching, you shouldn't throw around terms that you don't know the meaning of to support an argument, cuz all that does is weaken your argument. 'Suicide is murdering yourself'...pffftt...do you just make this stuff up as you go along. Or do you just think you know the law better than you do (that was a hypothetical question that requires no answer, cuz the answer is obvious)?

Who's stopping them in their own home without help? Umm, lets see, people who are so sick they can't physically do what is required to kill themselves alone. MLS comes to mind, where the muscles are so atrophied you can't even put pills in your mouth by yourself, let alone hook up an IV or administer a drug through a needle. Numerous conditions that cause people to want to die are the very conditions that prevent them from doing it themselves. Most of those conditions, and the inabilities to live, die or do for yourself, are the very reason that these people want to die.

That's one great Post.

Kudos

[watching]

LOL...are you freakin serious? If you're using murder in the legal sense (and really what other sense is there, murder is a legal term) you just wrong, as usual.

But of course, all hail the great Nikita. *gag* :rolleyes:

In fact there is no law against suicide,

Yes, but counselling suicide remains a criminal act and an argument could quite easily be made that the person assisting was counselling suicide. With the only other witness dead, that "assistant" would be up the creek.

so how do you arrive at this 'suicide is murder' stuff...murder is culpable homicide...not culpuable suicide (since suicide is not illegal, there is no such thing as culpable suicide)...suicide is suicide, not culpable homicide, and murder is murder. Stop mixing your metaphors.

Suppose you asked someone to shoot you. The person did. I suppose in your world that shooter wouldn't be charged with murder. :lol:

Really, watching, you shouldn't throw around terms that you don't know the meaning of to support an argument, cuz all that does is weaken your argument. 'Suicide is murdering yourself'...pffftt...do you just make this stuff up as you go along. Or do you just think you know the law better than you do (that was a hypothetical question that requires no answer, cuz the answer is obvious)?

Yes, of course you're right. Silly me to think anyone but you has all the answers. :rolleyes:

Who's stopping them in their own home without help? Umm, lets see, people who are so sick they can't physically do what is required to kill themselves alone. MLS comes to mind, where the muscles are so atrophied you can't even put pills in your mouth by yourself, let alone hook up an IV or administer a drug through a needle. Numerous conditions that cause people to want to die are the very conditions that prevent them from doing it themselves. Most of those conditions, and the inabilities to live, die or do for yourself, are the very reason that these people want to die.

You can't decide whether to attack a poster or debate a poster's views. Confused? :lol:

[Nikita]

. Confused? :lol:


Aren't you always?;)

[Tijuana]

Really? How would you know this? Or is this just your opinion based on a lack of facts?





Yes, most people who suicide fully are in the right state of mind. Very few buckle to things like stress, addiction, personal problems, most people kill themselves because they* just cannot take it anymore* which means they are not in their right state of mind. Just because a few things screw up, doesn't mean they have to kill themselves. Suicide is never the answer, and just with that, your statement fails.

[Nikita]

Yes, most people who suicide fully are in the right state of mind. Very few buckle to things like stress, addiction, personal problems, most people kill themselves because they* just cannot take it anymore* which means they are not in their right state of mind. Just because a few things screw up, doesn't mean they have to kill themselves. Suicide is never the answer, and just with that, your statement fails.

This isn't about people just up and deciding they don't want to live anymore, nor is it about people who want to die because they are stressed, depressed or have had a few things 'scew up' in their life. This is about terminally ill people who are going to die anyway, or can continue to stay 'alive' but with a debilitating disease. Nor is it about people who 'suddenly' decide they just don't want to live anymore. As has been stated, there will be checks and balances in place to ensure people who decide to die will indeed be in thier 'right state of mind'. Being alive and living are two different things. Science allows us to 'stay alive' a lot longer than we used to, but often means not really 'living' at all. If you consider living under any of those circumstances just a few things screwing up, you haven't seen someone having to 'stay alive' without 'living'. And having to 'stay alive' simply because the law won't let someone help them die. If you're lucky enough to have enough strength to do it yourself, that's ok, but if you're too sick to do it yourself, you're simply SOL.

To YOU, suicide may never be an answer, but not everyone is you and not everyone holds those beliefs. And believe it or not, if you had to live with a debilitating disease that has no end except a long time of suffering ending with death anyway, you just might understand why someone would want to die. It's not an answer, it's a decision about one's own life.

[Tijuana]

To YOU, suicide may never be an answer, but not everyone is you and not everyone holds those beliefs. And believe it or not, if you had to live with a debilitating disease that has no end except a long time of suffering ending with death anyway, you just might understand why someone would want to die. It's not an answer, it's a decision about one's own life.

Sickness is a different story. Its something that is inevitable, so why wait it out. But for other things, such as depression, personal problems, addictions etc, then you are still *mentally able* to accept life and not kill yourself, you just get urges and temptations to take the easy way out of your problems. If you have a reason, a justifiable reason, then you are in your right state of mind, just because you say its over, nothing can change etc, then that is not a justified death.

[Nikita]

Sickness is a different story. Its something that is inevitable, so why wait it out. But for other things, such as depression, personal problems, addictions etc, then you are still *mentally able* to accept life and not kill yourself, you just get urges and temptations to take the easy way out of your problems. If you have a reason, a justifiable reason, then you are in your right state of mind, just because you say its over, nothing can change etc, then that is not a justified death.

Sooo, it appears we are in agreement?

[JAGpilot]

You have the right to cause damage to yourself in other ways, so why can't you decide to end your life when you want, in a painless way? It is YOUR life, you should be able to end it if you feel you do not want to live a life of permanent illness.

[firefly767]

the choice of dying without pain will make all sorts of problems for the society as the burden of responsibility is shifted. you can get away all too easy.

they should just die naturally. if they want to die we should just taking care of them. if the person in the video wants to die, dont be on a ventilator. if we decide to euthanize a mentally incapacitated person, do not take care of them and let nature do the work. there has to be a line somewhere between what we can do with what we should do.

if i have the choice of getting away with death without pain, i'll do it (when i want of course). lack of courage and fear of pain is what keeps us from killing ourselves.

[firefly767]

You have the right to cause damage to yourself in other ways, so why can't you decide to end your life when you want, in a painless way? It is YOUR life, you should be able to end it if you feel you do not want to live a life of permanent illness.

sure, the person can end their life by refusing medical care and be off the ventilator. its "whether you can get away with death without pain" that's the real issue.

i my opinion, we shouldn't. least have the courage to face death like everyone.

[Instagator]

sure, the person can end their life by refusing medical care and be off the ventilator. its "whether you can get away with death without pain" that's the real issue.

i my opinion, we shouldn't. least have the courage to face death like everyone.

That doesn't make sense. So what you are trying to say is that in order to die, it has to be painful? ... Alot of people die of quick and painless death. Why should a person with a disease that left him with pain every single day for years on end recieve MORE pain in order to die?

[JAGpilot]

I remember the Terry Shiavo case. The people were going nuts just so a severely ill woman could be kept alive on a feeding tube. What is the purpose of living like that? There's no reason to live once you cannot sustain life without physically obtrusive intervention!

[Tijuana]

Sooo, it appears we are in agreement?

I guess... kinda creepy :razz:

[Nikita]

I guess... kinda creepy :razz:

LOL...touche!

[ullyeus]

Imo Most people who commit suicide are not in the right state of mind and this just makes it easier for them. I don't have any problem with them ending their own life but I'm not in support of assisted suicide. If something like this becomes the norm imagine how much the rate would go up.

What's wrong with the rate going up?

[CheapScotsman]

IMO, the slippery slope .... IF we are going with the concept that people are allowed to commit suicide because of self determination then they really don't need a "valid" reason. As long as they are mentally competent to realize all that they are doing then that is good enough.

[ullyeus]

But of course, all hail the great Nikita. *gag* :rolleyes:



Yes, but counselling suicide remains a criminal act and an argument could quite easily be made that the person assisting was counselling suicide. With the only other witness dead, that "assistant" would be up the creek.



Suppose you asked someone to shoot you. The person did. I suppose in your world that shooter wouldn't be charged with murder. :lol:



Yes, of course you're right. Silly me to think anyone but you has all the answers. :rolleyes:



You can't decide whether to attack a poster or debate a poster's views. Confused? :lol:

You are one sad induhvidual.

[perplexed_one]

i personally am in favour of free will, so long as it doesn't affect anyone else physically.

who is the state to say what you can or cannot do with your own body?

it does have a valid point when it comes to individuals who may not be in their right mind. then again some would argue that an insane individual is trying to escape their torments by ending it then and there.

As long as this organization is not preaching some Nietzschesque philosophy and recruiting customers, then let it operate.

Switzerland would be an ideal place to die peacefully, the alps, rolling valleys, sweet air.
(edit: society these days is so averse to death in general, maybe that is the next step in the liberalization of norms in society)

[Nikita]

the choice of dying without pain will make all sorts of problems for the society as the burden of responsibility is shifted. you can get away all too easy.

they should just die naturally. if they want to die we should just taking care of them. if the person in the video wants to die, dont be on a ventilator. if we decide to euthanize a mentally incapacitated person, do not take care of them and let nature do the work. there has to be a line somewhere between what we can do with what we should do.

if i have the choice of getting away with death without pain, i'll do it (when i want of course). lack of courage and fear of pain is what keeps us from killing ourselves.

Your post is incredibly confusing, especially the second paragraph, which seems to be saying we should make people live in pain if they choose not to. We (who is this vague 'we' you're talking about anyway?) shouldn't be making end of life decisions for anyone who is mentally capable of making their own. You seem to think we should be cruel to terminally ill people, most of whom would likely have died a lot earlier but for the science that can make it possible to 'be alive' longer, and now seems to have made it imperative that we 'be alive longer' even if we're not 'living'...thus suffering longer.

Your last paragraph seems entirely inconsistent however. We should force others to live and die painfully, but you'll do whatever you have to to avoid that? Why don't that vague we get to force you to live a life and die a death you don't want??

sure, the person can end their life by refusing medical care and be off the ventilator. its "whether you can get away with death without pain" that's the real issue.

i my opinion, we shouldn't. least have the courage to face death like everyone.

WTF is so courageous about staying alive in a body science can keep alive but not keep 'living'? WTF is so courageous about dying a painful death? WTF are you talking about?

Face death like everyone? Newsflash, 'everyone' doesn't face death the same way...so again, wtf are you talking about? Some are lucky enough to die quickly and painlessy, in fact many are. So why should we not allow 'everyone' to do so, by your logic?

IMO, the slippery slope .... IF we are going with the concept that people are allowed to commit suicide because of self determination then they really don't need a "valid" reason. As long as they are mentally competent to realize all that they are doing then that is good enough.

I too have serious concerns about the slippery slope, but moreso in the way of people 'wanting' to die because they feel like a burden to loved ones, people talking an elderly or vulnerable person into 'choosing' suicide because of the expense and inconvenience of caring for them, people who 'choose' to die so that money being used to care for them can go to their loved ones because parents especially feel they have to leave an estate for their children....and numerous other scenarios. TBH I'm on the fence about this whole issue. I know someone who chose to die and though it broke my heart I completely understand why she chose to do so and felt it was selfish of me to try to talk her out of it because I didn't want to lose her. I strongly believe there are thousands of cases where people have legitimate reasons for wanting to die and should be able to.

On the other hand are the abuses I mentioned above. It scares me to think people will 'choose' to die to be noble or not to burden their loved ones. It scares me to think that grown children will pursuade elderly ill parents that that 'choice' is a good one for the parents, when it's only selfishness or a cash grab by the grown children. Those scenarios will happen, no system is possible without abuse. But I find myself believing more and more that a strong system of checks and balances and procedures and laws etc etc can minimize those things happen, and we really can't hope for anything more in a human made system than minimizing abuses.

We can only do our best and yes, someone will have to draw lines in the sand that may or may not be what everyone wants, but I believe it can and should be done, else the only alternative is to let nobody make their own end of life decisions no matter the severity of their situation and that's just wrong IMHO and in many many cases amounts to nothing less than cruelty.