Legal Recourse for Programming Work

[red120]

This is a continuation of the thread previously mentioned here:
http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=629605

Situation Update:
The firm has dragged its feet after initially promising quick work after my concessions. I had been calling to follow up every other day as to their progress, and receiving ambiguous answers. As of today, I found out that they had done no work at all, and actually only recently freed up programmer's time.

Now the project lead is demanding that I settle the balance of the account (which was contingent on completion of the project) before any work is done. This will not work for us, as I have no control over quality or delivery when I have paid completely upfront.

The time frame of the original project has already been exceeded for many months.

Originally, I was thinking that the sum of the contract ($7K) is not worthwhile for pursuing legal action. However, there are costs that I incurred such as depreciation of my product, as this is fashion jewelry, the ability to sell it relies on the timeliness of the product as well. The value of the stock is approximately $30-40k. Typical end of season mark-down is 50%. Additionally there has been cost for studio, etc. other costs.

I have already sent off an e-mail saying that litigation is a possibility if this can't be resolved, and requesting their most current address.

Thoughts?

Recommendations for course of action, or legal contacts that you've used before?

I'm currently working in the US, which complicates things in that I won't be able to represent myself.

[dutchca]

Cut ties - you don't want this company doing any work for you now or in the future.

As far as the money paid so far - take it as far as you are comfortable with considering the amount spent and the time and effort to potentially resolve.

[red120]

Depends. There's currently about $1500 left in stage gates before completion of the project. I will have to find people who can pick up from where they have left off - I'm pretty sure if I go to a new firm, they will take me to the cleaners to pick up this project, for more than $1500 certainly.

I am not sure how much I can recoup, and whether the judge will pay any sum for depreciation of inventory. Of course, whether I choose to pursue litigation as a path is dependent on that factor, as well as chances of success.

If RFD has anyone to recommend for either legal or coding (with professional references, portfolio, and established history), please PM me as well.

[slavka012]

I am not sure how much I can recoup, and whether the judge will pay any sum for depreciation of inventory. Of course, whether I choose to pursue litigation as a path is dependent on that factor, as well as chances of success.

Of course you will not be paid any consequential damages. Maximum you can your money back.

Find an individual, not a firm, who can complete the project. In fact, you should have been looking for an individual from the beginning. $7000 is nothing for a company, no wonder they put your project on a back burner. Must've had a slow month, or something, when they took it.

[red120]

Of course you will not be paid any consequential damages. Maximum you can your money back.

Find an individual, not a firm, who can complete the project. In fact, you should have been looking for an individual from the beginning. $7000 is nothing for a company, no wonder they put your project on a back burner. Must've had a slow month, or something, when they took it.
Really?

I'm not familiar with legal proceedings, but it would seem to make sense that damages resulting from breach of contract would be a valid item to sue for.

Is that not the case?

I have had bad experiences with individuals.. hired a friend to do it initially, and he just sat on it for a couple months and did nothing, and then bailed on me when a bigger project came along.. after taking my deposit. So with this company, I guess I at least got something for my money.

[matdwyer]

Really?

I'm not familiar with legal proceedings, but it would seem to make sense that damages resulting from breach of contract would be a valid item to sue for.

Is that not the case?

I have had bad experiences with individuals.. hired a friend to do it initially, and he just sat on it for a couple months and did nothing, and then bailed on me when a bigger project came along.. after taking my deposit. So with this company, I guess I at least got something for my money.

You have an online store right? I am in no position to take this on at all, maybe some of the other people here might be - but what exactly did you have done? A custom built ecommerce site? is it based off anything? For an established firm 7 grand does seem small for this type of project, but for something based off say magento with customized options, that sounds about right. Anyway fill us in a bit more on this "final 10%" and we can give you recommendations.

Also, do they have an office, salaried employees, etc? If so, pay someone $100 to go and bug them at their office all day... see if that sparks anything

[ottawasportsfan2010]

Really?

I'm not familiar with legal proceedings, but it would seem to make sense that damages resulting from breach of contract would be a valid item to sue for.

Is that not the case?

I have had bad experiences with individuals.. hired a friend to do it initially, and he just sat on it for a couple months and did nothing, and then bailed on me when a bigger project came along.. after taking my deposit. So with this company, I guess I at least got something for my money.

You can sue for the $7 grand plus interest.

[slavka012]

I'm not familiar with legal proceedings, but it would seem to make sense that damages resulting from breach of contract would be a valid item to sue for.


I'm might be wrong as I'm not a lawyer, but if it were the case it would extremely easy to set somebody up by making them unable to fulfill the project and make them liable for many times more than the cost of the project. Does not make sense to me. It's like that moron who sued dry cleaners for like $50 million because they lost his pants.

Would YOU take a project that pays off $7000, with an attached risk of being liable for $70000 if it is not completed on time? I certainly would not.

And... I said an individual, not a friend! Big difference!

[red120]

You have an online store right? I am in no position to take this on at all, maybe some of the other people here might be - but what exactly did you have done? A custom built ecommerce site? is it based off anything? For an established firm 7 grand does seem small for this type of project, but for something based off say magento with customized options, that sounds about right. Anyway fill us in a bit more on this "final 10%" and we can give you recommendations.

Also, do they have an office, salaried employees, etc? If so, pay someone $100 to go and bug them at their office all day... see if that sparks anything
Yes, it's an online store. They set up a custom built eCommerce site, and there is a CMS system to manage the products, etc.

Actually, I am not sure how much is actually custom, and how much is just recycled from their other projects, as during our meetings they often mentioned that they could do it if it had already been done on a different site, etc. I don't have a lot of technical background, which is one of the reasons why I think I may have gotten ambushed here - especially in the structuring of the payments.

The structuring was done in four stage gates, 30% 20% 30% and 20%. However, most of the tasks were design-side stuff, not coding.. the latter of which I expect are where the major $-hours come in.

Right now the CMS and database are set up, I believe.. luckily I think the database was most of the work (someone correct me, if I am wrong).

What remains to be done is the integration of my merchant services provider into the site, as well as (if I decide to take my business elsewhere), changing the site so that the database works on another hosting server. As currently, it is being hosted on their server. And I think also, the integration of payment gateway, checkout, etc. has to be finished. There is some progress at the moment.

Also, there are cosmetic touch-ups that need to be done, there are numerous, though not serious, aesthetic concerns with the site (i.e. alignment, extra lines, shuffling things around, etc.)

You can sue for the $7 grand plus interest.
Any ballpark figure what legal fees I should expect to incur? I haven't had to go down this avenue before.

Would YOU take a project that pays off $7000, with an attached risk of being liable for $70000 if it is not completed on time? I certainly would not.
You're correct, that makes a lot of sense from that perspective.

[matdwyer]

Yes, it's an online store. They set up a custom built eCommerce site, and there is a CMS system to manage the products, etc.

Actually, I am not sure how much is actually custom, and how much is just recycled from their other projects, as during our meetings they often mentioned that they could do it if it had already been done on a different site, etc. I don't have a lot of technical background, which is one of the reasons why I think I may have gotten ambushed here - especially in the structuring of the payments.



If this is custom then you face a number of problems.
1 - you have to get all their files from them, which may be a problem (check your contact) if you try to leave
2 - a freelancer may or may not work with someone elses code. For example, when I do updates on clients site, I have a rate for sites I built ($xx/hour) and rates for sites other people built ($xx+50%). This would get more important depending on the complexity of the code. I'm assuming the firm didn't comment codes for someone else to easily come in and edit :lol:

Right now the CMS and database are set up, I believe.. luckily I think the database was most of the work (someone correct me, if I am wrong).


Not quite sure why they decided to go custom on this, if I were you I would check to see if any files are actually from an open sourced cart... There is many out there that provide this functionally out of the box, with huge followings and good security track records (of course some may still chose to work with their own code, but for that price it seems unlikely to me)

What remains to be done is the integration of my merchant services provider into the site,


Very easy if you are using an open sourced cart, just a matter of setting up a module. (maybe $150 from a freelancer)


as well as (if I decide to take my business elsewhere), changing the site so that the database works on another hosting server. As currently, it is being hosted on their server. And I think also, the integration of payment gateway, checkout, etc. has to be finished. There is some progress at the moment.


Does the site run on php with mySQL database? if so, just ask for a backup of the database asap - this is very easy to switch. Also, ask for a CD of all the files so far.


Also, there are cosmetic touch-ups that need to be done, there are numerous, though not serious, aesthetic concerns with the site (i.e. alignment, extra lines, shuffling things around, etc.)



This is likely just CSS (style sheet) editing on the template, or moving things around in their page template files. Expect to pay about $70/hour for this sort of work from a freelancer.

As a very general statement, you're looking at maybe 2 grand to finish that up, but again I have no idea on what is actually done.

Alternately, I've seen ecommerce sites that are built from open sourced programs to run about $2000-$3000... it depends on if you want to ditch this and start over :cry:

[red120]

Hmm..

I will be talking to them in about ten minutes.

I will ask them regarding the items you mentioned as well.

Would you mind to take a glance of the site, and whether it looks whether they ripped it from a template? Or is that not something that can be assessed easily? If it's alright, I'll send you a PM.

On a side note, to the others who mentioned legal action -

During my contract, the company was purchased by another design firm. Would this influence the litigation process? I'm reluctant to disclose names at this time, of course.

[matdwyer]

Would you mind to take a glance of the site, and whether it looks whether they ripped it from a template? Or is that not something that can be assessed easily? If it's alright, I'll send you a PM.


It isn't actually a template that is the issue, its the ecommerce engine... a great developer can mask all signs of things, generally, but sometimes you can still tell certain traits (i.e. how files are named, source files, etc).

No idea on the legal aspects though! Hope your convo with them went well.

- Mat

[michelb]

Really?

I'm not familiar with legal proceedings, but it would seem to make sense that damages resulting from breach of contract would be a valid item to sue for.

Is that not the case?

I have had bad experiences with individuals.. hired a friend to do it initially, and he just sat on it for a couple months and did nothing, and then bailed on me when a bigger project came along.. after taking my deposit. So with this company, I guess I at least got something for my money.

I don't think there's any chance that you'll get anything at all for damages. I think the best you could hope for is to recoup whatever you paid from the $7k (you mentioned that there's still $1500 or something so I'm not sure if that means you've only paid them $5500). That being said, it sounds like they've still done 'something' for you so I don't think you'd be able to get the full $7k either. From what you've mentioned, I imagine that you could get the 'right' to terminate the contract with cause and and they wouldn't be able to sue you for breach of contract based on what's been done and hasn't but if you haven't paid that $1500, it may very well be as far as it goes. You might be able to get a bit more back but it really would depend on the contract and what's been done and not. If you've requested and changes or modifications at all after the initial agreement then that option is probably gone (they could probably easily argue that the changes you requested caused the delays).

Good luck

[slavka012]

During my contract, the company was purchased by another design firm. Would this influence the litigation process? I'm reluctant to disclose names at this time, of course.

So now the company is even bigger. And your project is even less important to them. Just tell them nicely to turn over all source files etc and find somebody to pick up where they left. From your description it sounds like there is just 2 weeks x man worth of work left, max.

If you've requested and changes or modifications at all after the initial agreement then that option is probably gone (they could probably easily argue that the changes you requested caused the delays).

Precisely.

[mymeowcat]

I'm a software developer who does websites and database stuff and here's my notes on your situation:

1) As a general rule I would NOT take over anybody else's project --- too difficult and risky trying to fix the other guy's stuff...better to just start fresh. Unless I'm really hurting for cash I wouldn't do it.

Even if you get all the files and code --- you might have difficulty getting a developer to finish it. Ask them to e-mail it to you.

2) Online retail is difficult --- you might want to try www.geocities.com or www.yahoo.com who has pre-made templates for wanna-be online merchants...cheap and it allows you to "test" your marketing concepts before spending lots of money on your online store idea.

I believe if you want to spice it up --- you can work with their code.

3) I'm not sure how customized it is -- but more customization = more money. It is possible their developers/web programmers don't know how to do it and are over extended:(

Recommendation: grab the files and terminate all relationship with them.

[slavka012]

1) As a general rule I would NOT take over anybody else's project --- too difficult and risky trying to fix the other guy's stuff...better to just start fresh. Unless I'm really hurting for cash I wouldn't do it.

2) Online retail is difficult

That just shows your inexperience and a bit of an arrogance. (It's like you are saying nobody but you can write a decent code). Where is nothing wrong with finishing up somebody else's code, especially if it is from an established project. I doubt they started developing it from scratch just for OP.

Online retail is a actually very simple with any modern language like PHP, comparing to many other things.

[matdwyer]

That just shows your inexperience and a bit of an arrogance. (It's like you are saying nobody but you can write a decent code). Where is nothing wrong with finishing up somebody else's code, especially if it is from an established project. I doubt they started developing it from scratch just for OP.

Online retail is a actually very simple with any modern language like PHP, comparing to many other things.

You should charge a premium for using other peoples code - the time you take to decipher everything and figure what is where can be stressful. I highly doubt that many people comment every line of code :lol:

[michelb]

That just shows your inexperience and a bit of an arrogance. (It's like you are saying nobody but you can write a decent code). Where is nothing wrong with finishing up somebody else's code, especially if it is from an established project. I doubt they started developing it from scratch just for OP.
...

+1.

Refusing to work on existing code and starting from scratch might work in university but in the real world it's just not a luxury you can afford (e.g. I'm currently the only developer supporting a web app that was developed by my employer before I joined them. I had nothing to do with writing the app (and wasn't even hired to do this) but they needed someone to maintain it and that someone became me. The app is about 600 Javascript files which really isn't that big but I certainly can't tell them that since I didn't write it all, I'll just start from scratch whenever something is wrong!!!)

[mymeowcat]

That just shows your inexperience and a bit of an arrogance. (It's like you are saying nobody but you can write a decent code). Where is nothing wrong with finishing up somebody else's code, especially if it is from an established project. I doubt they started developing it from scratch just for OP.

Online retail is a actually very simple with any modern language like PHP, comparing to many other things.

I guess it all depends on how good or bad the code is:confused: I've seen some really bad stuff. Example when they get their office admin to develop a database/web site etc.), give up then turn it over to you.

I'm suggesting that the original poster should grab the files and see what he can do with them.

I should probably rewrite what I said about Online retail being diffcult --- I should clarify by saying I suspect that if you had an online store that you may get a lot of hits but the thing is how many people will actually buy? The programming is simple enough.

What I'm saying is that I'd hate to charge anyone like the original poster a lot of money --- especially if I'm not absolutely sure he'll make enough sales to cover the initial cost.:( Especially since he already sunk a bundle of cash on it already!

[Nyte]

That just shows your inexperience and a bit of an arrogance. (It's like you are saying nobody but you can write a decent code). Where is nothing wrong with finishing up somebody else's code, especially if it is from an established project. I doubt they started developing it from scratch just for OP.


I actually agree with mymeowcat on this one. It's not so much about other people not being able to write decent code, but more likely than not, the code was poorly written. Why put yourself through it? It's really a personal choice and I see nothing wrong with it.

+1.
Refusing to work on existing code and starting from scratch might work in university but in the real world it's just not a luxury you can afford (e.g. I'm currently the only developer supporting a web app that was developed by my employer before I joined them. I had nothing to do with writing the app (and wasn't even hired to do this) but they needed someone to maintain it and that someone became me. The app is about 600 Javascript files which really isn't that big but I certainly can't tell them that since I didn't write it all, I'll just start from scratch whenever something is wrong!!!)
There's a difference between working for an employer and getting your own contracts. When you work for someone else, there is no getting around working with legacy code. If you find work for yourself freelancing, you choose your own work. If you are good and well known enough (or if it isn't your primary source of income), you do have that luxury.