Travelling to HK from Toronto, stop over in USA with criminal record a good idea?

[dmarian]

First off I plead guilty to Possession under $5000 and was given a condition discharge earlier this year... I will carry a criminal record for 3 years.

My conditions are basically to remain in good behaviour for the rest of my probation period of 3 years.

I have no restrictions on travelling, however I am aware that I "may" get hassled travelling to the USA (due to the criminal record).

I was looking for different prices on tickets and most of the cheaper ones stop in the states, I was wondering if this would be a good idea for me or would avoiding the states be the best option? and pay alittle more.

Would I have to go through customs at all with a connection flight?
If I don't have to go through customs I technically would have nothing to worry about doing a stop over in the USA correct?

Appreciate any advice.

[pitz]

If you want to 'test' your ability to get into the US -- buy a round-trip refundable ticket to somewhere in the US from Toronto Pearson, check-in, and then attempt to go through US Customs pre-clearance.

If you are rejected, then you'll know that it won't work out.

If you are accepted, then merely contact the airline and have yourself removed from the flight. And then get your ticket refunded.

That way you won't risk having a cheap refundable ticket that transits the US, and end up being denied admission.

And since you are in Toronto, you can actually go through US Customs without getting on a flight or leaving Canada.

[pitz]

Would I have to go through customs at all with a connection flight?


Yes, all people heading to the US, even with onward connecting flights, must clear US Customs at Toronto Pearson.

[dmarian]

Thanks alot Pitz your advice is appreciated, I guess my best bet would be to avoid US altogether and go for a direct flight or a stop in vancouver.

[thescream]

You have to go thru US pre-clearance at the Toronto Airport which means that you go thru US customs in Toronto (which allows you to arrive in the US as a domestic passenger rather then going thru customs there)

The Canadian government shares criminal records with the US authorities and they very well may find your conviction and will refuse you entry to the US. I have heard one case where a man now in his 40's was rejected due to a marijuana conviction when he was 19.

Why not just fly direct to Hong Kong? There are flights from Canada, instead of risking losing your money which I highly doubt can be refunded since you didn't cancel or change your travel date...and being refused entry is not a risk that's covered under any ticket policy as far as I know.

[dmarian]

Yeah I'll steer clear of the states altogether for the next 3 years, guess I'll pay 300 or so more for a direct flight. Thanks thescream.

[manixc]

I'd avoid having to connect or stop over in the US unless absolute necessary, even without criminal records; just to avoid the US customs.

[Canuck32]

Your question is one of those questions that just does not have a definite answer, and I would bet more experienced criminal defence lawyers and judges would say something similar.

You have not been convicted of a criminal offence and, from the perspective of our system, you do not have any criminal record whatsoever. A conditional discharge does stay in the system for three years following the conclusion of any sentence (so if you received one year probation, you'd be looking at four years from sentencing). The court can also use the discharge as an aggravating factor if you are found guilty of any other offences while the discharge is still "active" in the system.

Any discharge is still a "finding of guilt". The Americans are more concerned with these findings then they are with discharges, thus if the finding is still active in the system, they may have concerns.

I know many people travel between the US and Canada with actual criminal records and don't have any problems. Your charge is not a violent one nor will it suggest a propensity to take up residence in the United States. That said, the Americans are pretty tough on drugs, so they may take notice. Ultimately a customs official has the right to deny you entry into the United States, so it's likely going to be on a case by case basis. My gut feeling is that you won't have a problem, but you never know.

It's also possible to apply for what's called a waiver. In your case, assuming you are approved, this will get you into the country, but it will also put you into the American system for good, whereas if you wait until the finding of guilt gets purged in a few years this will not be the case.

[sillysimms]

The others have given good advice.

I will just add, and this may not apply to you, that if you have a criminal record and the US Customs checks it and finds out about it, it will stay in their system. Meaning the US is not governed by our rules here. Even if you later get a pardon and your criminal record is sealed in Canada, that does not mean that the records that US Customs have are sealed.

As stated by others here, this *likely* doesn't apply to your situation or to those that would not be barred from entering the States, but for those that have a criminal record and plan to apply for a pardon when they've fulfilled the time requirements, it is often recommend that they do not travel to the US until the time that their pardon is granted so that they are not flagged in the US Customs system which could result in future denial of entry, despite a pardon.

[IronMac]

Two things:

A. Gut feeling is to avoid the US altogether.
B. If you can afford it, the money saved is not really worth the extra flight time and hassle to take a flight from the US to HK.

[mustanglover76]

Does it really mean that anyone with a criminal record won't be accepted into the states? Even for 1 offense? Are they that tight with who they allow in? I understand all the changes made since 9/11 but I didn't know it goes that far.

[sillysimms]

Does it really mean that anyone with a criminal record won't be accepted into the states? Even for 1 offense? Are they that tight with who they allow in? I understand all the changes made since 9/11 but I didn't know it goes that far.

It doesn't mean you will automatically be denied entry, however entry is at the discretion of the Customs official you are dealing with and you may be denied entry. As Canuck32 said, it can depend on a number of factors and you can apply for a waiver to enter.

Here's the official write up:

http://www.voyage.gc.ca/dest/report-en.asp?country=308000
"If you have a criminal record, no matter how minor or how long ago the offence, you may be refused entry to the United States. There may also be problems in travelling through U.S. airport facilities. A pardon for an offence issued by Canadian authorities is not recognized under U.S. law, for purposes of entry into the United States. If you have a criminal record, you should contact one of the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) ports of entry well in advance. If you are ineligible to enter the United States, you may apply for a waiver of ineligibility. This will involve completing Form I-192, "Advance Permission to Enter the United States as a Non-Immigrant." There is a fee and it may take several months to process your application. Waiver application forms are available from any port of entry to the United States, any pre-clearance site in Canada, the U.S. Embassy in Ottawa, or one of the U.S. consulates in Canada.

U.S. ports of entry are computerized and connected to a centralized database. Information is readily available on criminal convictions in both Canada and the United States. Even though you may have entered the United States without hindrance in the past, you could run into difficulty if your record shows a criminal conviction or a previous denial of entry. Attempting to gain entry without a waiver could result in several weeks of detention at a USCIS facility.

If you left the United States to avoid military service during the Vietnam War and have not since regularized your status, there might be an outstanding warrant for your arrest or you might be ineligible for U.S. entry. If in doubt, check with the nearest USCIS port of entry. If you need information about regularizing your status with the U.S. military, you may call the U.S. Embassy in Ottawa."

[1980]

Hey do any of you know what the deal is with flying over the US without stopping. Precisely, i'm going to Dominican from Canada and i want to make sure i won't have any problems.
any info or stories to share?

[pitz]

Hey do any of you know what the deal is with flying over the US without stopping. Precisely, i'm going to Dominican from Canada and i want to make sure i won't have any problems.
any info or stories to share?

1) All flights that overfly the United States will result in your name being shared with the Department of Homeland Security.

2) If you are fugitive from the US judicial system, and your plane has to make an emergency landing or diversion to the US, you will be arrested.

3) As your flight does not land in the United States otherwise, you will not be clearing US Customs. Unless you are on a US no-fly list, you should have no issues whatsoever.

[tdott]

A co-worker, has a small conviction on his record, I fly with him alot for work.

He was scared shitless the first time him and i went to the states.

But they never asked him any questions about his record, or if he even had one. They were only concerned about the purpose of his trip. He was never given any trouble.

When they scan his passport we're not even sure if they know about his conviction, bcus they never asked about it. (We're assuming if they knew they would question him more)

Anyways we've been traveling for atleast 10 times in the past year, and there hasn't been an issue. This has always been for business so i dont know if that makes a difference.

His conviction was something minor like an assault or something like that forgot the real name. So that may also be a factor. But from his experience, he was never asked to share information about his record, nor was he ever questioned about it.

Goodluck.

[GemInite]

Doesn't matter where I go, I always try to avoid flying through the U.S.

Clearing customs is such a pain even without a record.

[Canuck32]

I did a little more research into this and spoke to some immigration lawyers.

Basically, you can be denied entry if your crime was one of moral turpitude. Of course, there isn't a specific list of which criminal code offences are CMTs and which are not. You should have no issue for things like assault and possession under, while your chances of having a problem are much greater for assault bodily harm and possession for the purposes of trafficking. There is also some discussion that any assault in a domestic context may be a CMT.

It's true that your offence will be wiped clean three years after you have completed probation, but that does not mean the Americans won't know about it. They have access to CPIC and could do a search before it gets wiped off. Thus, never lie to border officials if you are asked - just explain that you were found guilty of an offence but were discharged and have no criminal record.

I don't think you will have any problem, unless there is something about the offence that you are not sharing on here.

[angui]

Doesn't matter where I go, I always try to avoid flying through the U.S.

Clearing customs is such a pain even without a record.

here's a hint: google nexus…

[tdott]

Thanks guys, with the dollar as bad as it is, i might as well buy it here.

A FS friend can get an xsi for $650 tax in, im going for it.

[tom-ee]

Is there a way i can find out for sure if i will be granted entry to the US?

Unfortunately , i have 2 charges of:

1) Possession for the purpose of trafficking
2) Criminal Harassment


It seems like this is some sort of test your luck thing... I really don't want to be wasting my money and time traveling to the states unless i find an exact real answer

[sillysimms]

Is there a way i can find out for sure if i will be granted entry to the US?

Unfortunately , i have 2 charges of:

1) Possession for the purpose of trafficking
2) Criminal Harassment


It seems like this is some sort of test your luck thing... I really don't want to be wasting my money and time traveling to the states unless i find an exact real answer

Are these charges or convictions?

You won't know for sure you will be admitted to the U.S. unless you apply for and receive a waiver (Form I-192, "Advance Permission to Enter the United States as a Non-Immigrant") ensuring your entry to the States despite your criminal record. This is the waiver form:

http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/i-192.pdf

You can see the instructions for filling out the forms and the cost (not cheap - over $500) here:

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=68db2c1a6855d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCR D&vgnextchannel=db029c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1 RCRD

If you travel to the States without this approved waiver and you do not have a pardon, they may or may not check your criminal record. If they do check your record, that record will be permanently recorded to the U.S. officials and should you later be granted a pardon in Canada it won't matter to the U.S since they already are aware of your convictions and don't recognize pardons issued in Canada.

There are a number of things to consider, but I do know that the States takes drug offenses seriously. Things that are specifically mentioned as likely to cause denied entry are:

* Crimes of Moral Turpitude AND Controlled Substances
- Exceptions: the offence occurred before your 18th birthday (5 years have since passed following the date of the commission of the offence and release from imprisonment), there is only one offence where the maximum penalty is 1 year and the sentence imposed was 6 months or less. Includes attempting to commit or commission of an offence for which there was no conviction.
* Controlled Substance Traffickers - Includes “assister, abettor, conspirator, or colluder”
* Conviction of 2 or more offences with a combined sentence of 5 or more years
* Prostitution and Commercialized vice
* Certain aliens involved in serious criminal activity who have asserted immunity from prosecution

Of course, there is always a chance they won't check your record, but if they do it will create major problems for you if plan to do any future travel to the States and they consider the trafficking charge to be serious enough to deny you entry.

ETA: Canuck32's post above gives you some good info about what may or may not be considered serious enough to deny you entry and he specifically mentions possession for the purposes of trafficking as being one that may be considered more serious.

[tom-ee]

The charges have all been conditionally discharged . I plan to visit the states at the end of November so i guess there's no way to get a waiver in time since they take months to years ...

[Agent240sx]

Does anyone know if stopping over in Alaska is the same as stopping over in main land USA?

I use to stop there for connecting flights all the time when I was younger but do remember going through US customs (however times are much different now).

I heard that its different and you won't have to go through the hassle of US customs.... any truth to this? anyone confirm?

[asdfvcx]

Does anyone know if stopping over in Alaska is the same as stopping over in main land USA?

It's the exact same. If your plane touches down in US soil, you have to go through US customs (either when you land or in the case of many Canadian departures, before you take off). No exceptions.

[torontoaki]

Does anyone know if stopping over in Alaska is the same as stopping over in main land USA?

I use to stop there for connecting flights all the time when I was younger but do remember going through US customs (however times are much different now).

I heard that its different and you won't have to go through the hassle of US customs.... any truth to this? anyone confirm?

Last time I came back from HK on Cathay, we had the stopover in Anchorage and had to disembark. Everyone had to clear US customs/INS and with HK citizens having to be photo'd and giving their index fingerprints, it was a long line to get into the waiting area. :(