Compact SUV Shootout.

[Emancipated]

This segment is hot with so many entries; ranging from the affordable CRV, Rav4, Vibe, Tiguan to the posh class of X3s, RDX, FX35 (?), etc.

This is really about the lower class models. Between what's available out there, what is generally considered the best bang for the buck?

I'm looking at VW Tiguan and at $30k with 4Motion and attractive stylings, I'm thinking of going from a VW Rabbit to this. The family needs a AWD car and I'm beginning to think it's probably time to leave behind the hot hatch mentality at my age.

Are there better options? The RAV4 is also in consideration.

Thanks

[B0000rt]

This segment is hot with so many entries; ranging from the affordable CRV, Rav4, Vibe, Tiguan to the posh class of X3s, RDX, FX35 (?), etc.

This is really about the lower class models. Between what's available out there, what is generally considered the best bang for the buck?

I'm looking at VW Tiguan and at $30k with 4Motion and attractive stylings, I'm thinking of going from a VW Rabbit to this. The family needs a AWD car and I'm beginning to think it's probably time to leave behind the hot hatch mentality at my age.

Are there better options? The RAV4 is also in consideration.

Thanks
I have the 07 RAV4 V6 4WD.. It's not real 4WD in that only the front wheels are driven normally, and the rear wheels kick in when slip is detected. You can lock in the 4WD under 20mph though. I believe most other "4WD" systems in the vehicles in the lower end segment also work the same way.

But anyways, only the RAV4 out of the bunch offers a blazing fast V6, with little compromise in regards to fuel consumption. The interiors of the RAV4 don't compare at all to the CRV, CRV is much nicer, but man, how can you stand that front grill on the CRV..

[ssainani]

i think the tiguan is best in class if you look at all the factors (cost and fuel consumption) -- if you can wait ... there will be a diesel option available too

[spdztr]

I don't know why you threw in the Vibe as a compact SUV since it doesn't really fall in this category.

My suggestion (biased since I own one) would be the Hyundai Santa Fe. If you can find a good deal on one, or import from the US, it's the best bang for the buck. It's roomy, good power, decent mileage (as decent as a CUV can be), and you can get it in 2.7L or 3.3L, with 5sp if you get the 2.7. They're advertising over 900 km per tank on the 2.7L/5sp on the highway. Not too bad, and if your Rabbit was manual, you'd probably enjoy driving the manual Santa Fe too.

[hotweiss]

If you want all wheel drive performance and safety, the Subaru Outback destroys them all.

[Brandon]

If you want all wheel drive performance and safety, the Subaru Outback destroys them all.

Well, if you want a CUV then the 09 Forester should be one of your options. It doesn't need premium fuel (they offer both NA and turbo'd engines) like the Tiguan (which only has the 2.0T). The Forester has a little less power with it's NA engine, but more power with it's turbocharged one.

I THINK that The Tiguan has reactive AWD (fully FWD until slippage) whereas the Forester is full-time.

Based on what my parents paid for their base Forester (they had a trade-in), you should be able to get one for ~$30k all in (they got it for $26.5k with a $3000 trade-in).

Value wise, I think the Forester is better, but the Tiguan looks nicer (inside and out).

For pure cheapness value, did you look at the 09 Ford Escape? It's significantly cheaper than than all the imports (well, except Hyundai, but the Tucson is missing lots of features). If you want a bigger SUV for around the same price range, look at the Hyundai Santa Fe.

[gherikill]

Ford Escape.

[chickenbones]

I vote for V6 Rav4, very good looking car + fastest V6 in class. 4WD is competent enough. The reaons it's FWD most of the time is to save fuel & most drivers are more familiar with the characteristics of FWD.

Second choice would be Hyundai Santa Fe for good value.

[movieman]

You might also want to look at the Suzuki SX4; it has its faults (e.g. sluggish acceleration with the auto transmission), but it did pretty well on snow when we test-drove one last year.

[looniepincher]

The Nissan Rogue would be on my shortlist in this category. It's fresh, it's good on gas, and it's cheaper than RAV4/CRV.

The Forester and CRV would be my other choices.

[bionicbadger]

These might be of interest

motor trend compares 2008 Mazda CX-7 vs 2009 Subaru Forester XT vs 2009 Volkswagen Tiguan
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/suvs/112_0809_turbocharged_crossover_comparison/index.html

or Motortrend compares the Forester to the Nissan Rogue, Honda CRV, Saturn VUE Green Line, Toyota RAV4.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/suvs/112_0806_compact_crossover_comparison/index.html

They like the subaru forester, Haven't driven the 2009, but the old 08 drives grreat and has excellent visibility especially out the rear, better than probably any other CUV

[fastlayne]

They like the subaru forester, Haven't driven the 2009, but the old 08 drives grreat and has excellent visibility especially out the rear, better than probably any other CUV

The long anticipated diesel Forester will be a great addition to the Canadian market. Too bad it could be a year away.

[Emancipated]

Call me vain, but the Tiguan looks like it cost more than its actual price tag. I don't really like the interior to be honest and the CRV of the three principles has the nicest interior but subdued exterior. I like the fact that the RAV4 V6 is almost as fuel efficient but packs about 70hp more than the VW and over 100hp than the CRV. Having driven four bangers all my life, it's nice to have power at your beckoning.


As for the Rogue, oh man. That looks pretty sad. I just don't see myself enjoy driving something that looks like an Alien(tm) incubator. It looks putrid!

[mafiastyles]

+ rep for the rav4 v6 4wd nice little suv

[seftonm]

I like the Forester. Great small SUV and one of the few which still offers a manual transmission.

[hotweiss]

The long anticipated diesel Forester will be a great addition to the Canadian market. Too bad it could be a year away.

It will probably come in 2011. A diesel boxer, means engine paradise.

[Emancipated]

I just learned the Tiguan has something called Park Assist.

Apparently, only high end manufacturers like BMW, Lexus, MB have them.

I'm so enamoured by this Tiguan. I'm pretty much sold on the car and now need to pick options :)

The sad thing is, I was hoping for a 6spd but 4Motion isn't available with that tranny. Give up 4Motion which is ideal with a SUV/CUV but no true manual unless I get it only in FWD. Winters are getting scarier and scarier.

[torontosaurus]

What about the Jeep Patriot? To my understanding its full time 4x4, looks alright, and can be nicley equipped on a budget?

[Brandon]

I just learned the Tiguan has something called Park Assist.

Is that basically a backup sensor? I'd think they're more useful for a car where you don't have good visibility (like the Nissan Rogue), but for most CUV's I think they're not very useful if you're already half decent at parking.

What features are most important to you in a CUV? I guess AWD, but anything else?

[Emancipated]

What about the Jeep Patriot? To my understanding its full time 4x4, looks alright, and can be nicley equipped on a budget?


I don't like domestic interiors but that's more of a bias than fact so I'll check it out. The Compass is actually a pretty nice car.

Is that basically a backup sensor? I'd think they're more useful for a car where you don't have good visibility (like the Nissan Rogue), but for most CUV's I think they're not very useful if you're already half decent at parking.

What features are most important to you in a CUV? I guess AWD, but anything else?

Good power and safety options. I just wished the Tiguan had a more luxurious interior.

Park Assist actually uses the bumper cameras and parallel parks the car for you and all you have to do is give it gas and brake; the steering is automated. Sounds like a feature you have to pay out of the nose for but it's actually available as a nominally priced option.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tiguan+park+assist&search_type=&aq=f

[hotweiss]

Here are some Subaru ownage videos:

Subaru VS. Everyone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooQRxlChvMw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7dVFY5CxT0

And if that doesn't convince you, here's an 09 Forester with a SPT exhaust:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6eMiZ4Jz5w

[Brandon]

Good power and safety options. I just wished the Tiguan had a more luxurious interior.

IIHS safety picks for small SUV's:
Ford Escape 2009 models
Honda CR-V
Honda Element
Mazda Tribute 2009 models
Mercury Mariner 2009 models
Mitsubishi Outlander
Nissan Rogue 2008-09 models
Subaru Forester 2008-09 models
Volkswagen Tiguan 2009 models

For NHTSA (09 models), all have 5 star crash ratings (side, front, rear, etc). The difference is in the rollover ratings:
CRV - 4 star
Escape - 3 star
Santa Fe and Tucson - 4 star
Forester - 4 star

The Jeep Compass has 4 star front impact ratings, and 4 star rollover. The Rav4 has 4 star front impact for passenger and 4 star rollover (same with Rogue).

So safety wise, the CRV, Forester and Hyundai models are the best for the ones that heave features you're looking at (minus auto parking). The Tiguan is good based on IIHS, but no rating yet by NHTSA (these are optional on all Tiguans: Rear passenger side thorax airbags, supplemental restraint system... but regular side curtain for head is standard).

[chickenbones]

I don't like domestic interiors but that's more of a bias than fact so I'll check it out. The Compass is actually a pretty nice car.



Good power and safety options. I just wished the Tiguan had a more luxurious interior.

Park Assist actually uses the bumper cameras and parallel parks the car for you and all you have to do is give it gas and brake; the steering is automated. Sounds like a feature you have to pay out of the nose for but it's actually available as a nominally priced option.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tiguan+park+assist&search_type=&aq=f

I think park assist is not available in North America. Liability issues!


Here are some Subaru ownage videos:

Subaru VS. Everyone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooQRxlChvMw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7dVFY5CxT0

And if that doesn't convince you, here's an 09 Forester with a SPT exhaust:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6eMiZ4Jz5w

Yea but these are Subaru made videos, they are of course biased.

[hotweiss]

I think park assist is not available in North America. Liability issues!




Yea but these are Subaru made videos, they are of course biased.

These are Subaru made videos to train salesman and they are not meant for advertising. They are not biased at all, Subaru's AWD is really something special. There are better AWD systems out there of course, but in the price range that Subaru sells their cars at - nothing compares.

[Emancipated]

These are Subaru made videos to train salesman and they are not meant for advertising. They are not biased at all, Subaru's AWD is really something special. There are better AWD systems out there of course, but in the price range that Subaru sells their cars at - nothing compares.

So either Subaru is lying through their teeth or is slightly exaggerating their claims and magnifying the pitfalls of other manufacturers. I think if you checked videos of Audi's AWD system or other manufacturers, they can claim the same things. It's interesting how they didn't include any Audis in that experiment. Both Audi and Subaru have proven track records in motosport, however; is that why their system is so revered?

I think these videos are probably in their kiosks at dealers everywhere to show potential customers how superior their system and not just an internal exercise video.

[movieman]

So either Subaru is lying through their teeth or is slightly exaggerating their claims and magnifying the pitfalls of other manufacturers.

Why? What they show is pretty much what I would expect from what I know of the AWD systems on those other cars.

I think if you checked videos of Audi's AWD system or other manufacturers, they can claim the same things.

And they'd probably be right; given the price difference between Audi and Subaru (at least in the UK, I haven't looked at Audi prices here) I'd hope they have a better AWD system.

I think these videos are probably in their kiosks at dealers everywhere to show potential customers how superior their system and not just an internal exercise video.

Certainly not at the Subaru dealer here.

Edit: yeah, the cheapest Quattro I found on the Audi Canada site is nearly twice as expensive as the cheapest Impreza... I'd certainly hope it's a better car!

[kin0kin]

Subaru is good, but unfortunately, it is probably the ugliest car in the lot. Sorry, until the recent impreza (5 dr only btw), all the Subaru look hideous. The design looks like it is from the 90s. The exterior only btw, interior is awesome. They should just fire the whole exterior design team.

[hotweiss]

Subaru is good, but unfortunately, it is probably the ugliest car in the lot. Sorry, until the recent impreza (5 dr only btw), all the Subaru look hideous. The design looks like it is from the 90s. The exterior only btw, interior is awesome. They should just fire the whole exterior design team.

If you buy a car for looks you'll be disappointed after only a few months, as you'll get bored of it and something nicer will come out making your car look obsolete. Choose substance over form and you'll be happier with your car for a much longer period of time.

[ricky13579]

If you want all wheel drive performance and safety, the Subaru Outback destroys them all.

I think i've observed a pattern of your posts :-0

[hotweiss]

I think i've observed a pattern of your posts :-0

Indeed, there is a pattern, lol... Oh god, I think I'm turning into a Subaru fanboy.

[Andro]

If you buy a car for looks you'll be disappointed after only a few months, as you'll get bored of it and something nicer will come out making your car look obsolete. Choose substance over form and you'll be happier with your car for a much longer period of time.

So if I get bored of the car I loved a few month ago what happens to the car I don't like in a few month? :lol:

[ES_Revenge]

I THINK that The Tiguan has reactive AWD (fully FWD until slippage) whereas the Forester is full-time.
They are both "full-time". The Tiguan employs a Haldex coupling, however and it is a reactive system where the rear wheels do not receive power normally but can receive up to 100% of engine power based on slippage/conditions. The reaction time for Haldex is very quick, it only takes 1/8th of a revolution of wheel slip (or something like that) to engage the coupling and divert power towards the rear.

The Forester uses a centre-diff I believe (probably a Torsen but I'm not sure about the specifics on Subarus as they all use different systems and they don't really make it clear what vehicle uses what), so it does power all the wheels at all times.

However whether or not all wheels are powered "normally" or not, does not have any bearing on the term "full-time". Seems people make this same error everytime AWD is mentioned on here :(


The sad thing is, I was hoping for a 6spd but 4Motion isn't available with that tranny. Give up 4Motion which is ideal with a SUV/CUV but no true manual unless I get it only in FWD. Winters are getting scarier and scarier.
Tiguan has a DSG with the Haldex (4Motion), just like most other cars on the same platform. Only a few (like the S3 which is not available in NA) have the option of a traditional manual combined with the Haldex. DSG is a true manual, it's just not a traditional (read: old skool) manual. Have you driven a DSG car much? You might want to take a few test drives before you pass judgement.
Edit: The Tiguan does not have a DSG, that was my mistake, sorry. It has a conventional torque-converter auto for it's auto trans option. Disregard the above..

These are Subaru made videos to train salesman and they are not meant for advertising. They are not biased at all, Subaru's AWD is really something special. There are better AWD systems out there of course, but in the price range that Subaru sells their cars at - nothing compares.
Emphasis added.
ROFLMAO. :lol: Wait do you work selling Subarus or something? :lol:

Your comments reflect exactly what's in the videos. Just buzzwords and trade-terms and no real info. The fact that you say Subaru's AWD is "really something special" is hilarious. Something special is it? Oh damn I didn't know that. If it's "something special" that must mean it's the "bestest ever" :lol:

The video I don't really call biased per se though no. What I do call it is "pulling the wool over the eyes" of the consumer watching it. And (if what you state is true about them being sales tools) allowing salespeople to do the same to their customers.

I didn't watch the videos but if these are the ones I'm thinking of (that people always post around here) they don't really mean all that much, and they don't really explain anything. The main point of the video is to plaster terms like "symmetrical AWD" (which again means next to nothing) all over the place and make you focus on a certain set of conditions which are unlikely to be encountered in the real world but look great on their test apparatus.

I think if you checked videos of Audi's AWD system or other manufacturers, they can claim the same things. It's interesting how they didn't include any Audis in that experiment.
Well they included a VW (again if it's the video I'm thinking of) right? VW is Audi. Though again what's missing here is what systems are employed in what vehicles. They use a Passat wagon 2.0T 4Motion IIRC, a vehicle that employs a Haldex coupling similar to some Audis (TT, A3) not a Torsen diff like some other Audis (A4, A6 and A8) use. They could have used a TT or an A3 w/Quattro and got a similar result. Though I suspect the reason why the Passat moved but couldn't climb was that the stock 2.0T couldn't allow the heavy/large Passat to climb in that condition (I believe the TT or A3 may have been able to climb given the same task, but then they were only available with the 3.2L VR6 with Quattro up until now). Similarly I suspect a chipped 2.0T or the 3.2L V6 in the same Passat might have made a difference.

Regardless the Haldex-4Motion 2.0T Passat "failed" the test in this case, sure. But more importantly, does the video attempt to explain what differentials or specific systems are used in each vehicle? Not really. It just blathers on about buzzwords and shows you the test (which is nice to see but combined with the audio it's meaningless). It's much more important to understand they how/why of what's going on but they don't tell you anything because truth be told most customers aren't going to ask and most people haven't got a clue how a car operates so they'll just be amazed if you don't get into details.

I think these videos are probably in their kiosks at dealers everywhere to show potential customers how superior their system and not just an internal exercise video.
Either way it doesn't really matter. Because the even if the customers don't see them directly at a dealership, the salesppl pass on the same "info" (or lack thereof) anyway. Again, most people just sit there nodding/smiling while the salesperson touts jargon lol.

[kin0kin]

As far as looks are concerned, I put interior (since I'm in there all the time when driving) much higher priority than the exterior. However, when the exterior looks incredibly horrendous, nothing else really matters imo.

http://www.analogstereo.com/images/om/pontiac_aztek.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/2005_Subaru_B9_Tribeca_front.jpg/250px-2005_Subaru_B9_Tribeca_front.jpg

I think the AZTEK is the UGLIEST car ever made, but Subaru Tribeca (last gen) comes in second on my list. Now, it has significantly improved for this gen and I'm hoping that it gets better as I'd really like to consider Subaru vehicles in the future.

[hotweiss]

They are both "full-time". The Tiguan employs a Haldex coupling, however and it is a reactive system where the rear wheels do not receive power normally but can receive up to 100% of engine power based on slippage/conditions. The reaction time for Haldex is very quick, it only takes 1/8th of a revolution of wheel slip (or something like that) to engage the coupling and divert power towards the rear.

The Forester uses a centre-diff I believe (probably a Torsen but I'm not sure about the specifics on Subarus as they all use different systems and they don't really make it clear what vehicle uses what), so it does power all the wheels at all times.

However whether or not all wheels are powered "normally" or not, does not have any bearing on the term "full-time". Seems people make this same error everytime AWD is mentioned on here :(



Tiguan has a DSG with the Haldex (4Motion), just like most other cars on the same platform. Only a few (like the S3 which is not available in NA) have the option of a traditional manual combined with the Haldex. DSG is a true manual, it's just not a traditional (read: old skool) manual. Have you driven a DSG car much? You might want to take a few test drives before you pass judgement.


Emphasis added.
ROFLMAO. :lol: Wait do you work selling Subarus or something? :lol:

Your comments reflect exactly what's in the videos. Just buzzwords and trade-terms and no real info. The fact that you say Subaru's AWD is "really something special" is hilarious. Something special is it? Oh damn I didn't know that. If it's "something special" that must mean it's the "bestest ever" :lol:

The video I don't really call biased per se though no. What I do call it is "pulling the wool over the eyes" of the consumer watching it. And (if what you state is true about them being sales tools) allowing salespeople to do the same to their customers.

I didn't watch the videos but if these are the ones I'm thinking of (that people always post around here) they don't really mean all that much, and they don't really explain anything. The main point of the video is to plaster terms like "symmetrical AWD" (which again means next to nothing) all over the place and make you focus on a certain set of conditions which are unlikely to be encountered in the real world but look great on their test apparatus.


Well they included a VW (again if it's the video I'm thinking of) right? VW is Audi. Though again what's missing here is what systems are employed in what vehicles. They use a Passat wagon 2.0T 4Motion IIRC, a vehicle that employs a Haldex coupling similar to some Audis (TT, A3) not a Torsen diff like some other Audis (A4, A6 and A8) use. They could have used a TT or an A3 w/Quattro and got a similar result. Though I suspect the reason why the Passat moved but couldn't climb was that the stock 2.0T couldn't allow the heavy/large Passat to climb in that condition (I believe the TT or A3 may have been able to climb given the same task, but then they were only available with the 3.2L VR6 with Quattro up until now). Similarly I suspect a chipped 2.0T or the 3.2L V6 in the same Passat might have made a difference.

Regardless the Haldex-4Motion 2.0T Passat "failed" the test in this case, sure. But more importantly, does the video attempt to explain what differentials or specific systems are used in each vehicle? Not really. It just blathers on about buzzwords and shows you the test (which is nice to see but combined with the audio it's meaningless). It's much more important to understand they how/why of what's going on but they don't tell you anything because truth be told most customers aren't going to ask and most people haven't got a clue how a car operates so they'll just be amazed if you don't get into details.


Either way it doesn't really matter. Because the even if the customers don't see them directly at a dealership, the salesppl pass on the same "info" (or lack thereof) anyway. Again, most people just sit there nodding/smiling while the salesperson touts jargon lol.

Let me explain the AWD systems in both cars, as you have failed.

The Forester has a front and rear open differential, meaning that power will go to the wheel with the least resistance. The VDC system will slow down the wheels that are producing little motion and give the power to the wheels that have the potential for motion; in addition the VDC system can straighten the vehicle out in case it goes out of control. As far as the center differential is concerned, there are two types: one for the automatic and one for the manual transmission. The one for the automatic transmission is a hydraulic unit that is controlled by a computer and it has a 90:10 torque split during normal driving. The system is so advanced, that it actually predicts slippage before it happens. The one for the manual transmission is a viscous coupling unit that varies the torque by the change in viscosity caused my the increased rotation of the affected side.

The Tiguan's AWD system is made by a company called Haldex. It's a universal AWD system that is used by a number of different automobile manufacturers. It doesn't have a good reputation, but when a manufacturer wants to add AWD to a car it then becomes a cheap option. It functions in almost the same way as the AWD system in Subaru's, but it's not as refined; a hydraulic center differential controlled by a computer. The front and rear differential is open. One other major drawback of the Haldex system is fuel economy, and you'll notice that the Forester gets better fuel economy than the Tiguan. The Tiguan's computer will control slippage, but it will not provide yaw compensation like Subaru's VDC.

I did my research before buying my Subaru. Thanks to the fact that Subaru's AWD system is designed in house, it has evolved into one of the best AWD systems in the world.

[Emancipated]

Let me explain the AWD systems in both cars, as you have failed.

The Forester has a front and rear open differential, meaning that power will go to the wheel with the least resistance. The VDC system will slow down the wheels that are producing little motion and give the power to the wheels that have the potential for motion; in addition the VDC system can straighten the vehicle out in case it goes out of control. As far as the center differential is concerned, there are two types: one for the automatic and one for the manual transmission. The one for the automatic transmission is a hydraulic unit that is controlled by a computer and it has a 90:10 torque split during normal driving. The system is so advanced, that it actually predicts slippage before it happens. The one for the manual transmission is a viscous coupling unit that varies the torque by the change in viscosity caused my the increased rotation of the affected side.

The Tiguan's AWD system is made by a company called Haldex. It's a universal AWD system that is used by a number of different automobile manufacturers. It doesn't have a good reputation, but when a manufacturer wants to add AWD to a car it then becomes a cheap option. It functions in almost the same way as the AWD system in Subaru's, but it's not as refined; a hydraulic center differential controlled by a computer. The front and rear differential is open. One other major drawback of the Haldex system is fuel economy, and you'll notice that the Forester gets better fuel economy than the Tiguan. The Tiguan's computer will control slippage, but it will not provide yaw compensation like Subaru's VDC.

I did my research before buying my Subaru. Thanks to the fact that Subaru's AWD system is designed in house, it has evolved into one of the best AWD systems in the world.

I don't think anyone doubts you know your stuff but you have to be nieve to think the video isn't sugar coated to give Subaru a hand up. I don't know jack about Torsen or Haldex except knowing how to Wiki it and regurgitate what I've read; but don't take it as an insult on your intelligence. I have serious reservations about any "test" that are conducted by a company with a vested interest.

ES_Revenge isn't up on his VW news. The Tiguan has Tiptronic. A DSG is probably coming in the near future but it certainly isn't available as yet.

[vek]

There's some good leasemobiles on the list, but the CR-V is the type of car you can drive into the ground.

[ES_Revenge]

Let me explain the AWD systems in both cars, as you have failed.
No, unfortunately it's you that have failed. :rolleyes:

The VDC system will slow down the wheels that are producing little motion and give the power to the wheels that have the potential for motion; in addition the VDC system can straighten the vehicle out in case it goes out of control.
Uh I know what stability control does, this isn't even part of the discussion, yet I fail? More jokes :lol:

Again with the buzzwords and silly names though, VDC LOL. The first part of what you're describing is either the implementation of the traction control portion of stability control (possibly when used as an "electronic diff lock or EDL" from your description). The second part is stability control, plain and simple. Again what that has to do with AWD and what I was talking about (and what the discussion in the thread was about) I have no idea. :confused:

As far as the center differential is concerned, there are two types: one for the automatic and one for the manual transmission. The one for the automatic transmission is a hydraulic unit that is controlled by a computer and it has a 90:10 torque split during normal driving.
That's great to know but it would be nice if Subaru said something about that in all their advertising/publications/specifications, no? Not just classing every car they produce (for NA) as "Symmetrical AWD". What's so "symmetrical" about a 90:10 split? Obviously Subaru's not telling the average customer anything.

The system is so advanced, that it actually predicts slippage before it happens.
LOL "so advanced". It's certainly not the only system out there that "predicts" slippage.

The one for the manual transmission is a viscous coupling unit that varies the torque by the change in viscosity caused my the increased rotation of the affected side.
Wait, viscous coupling? Didn't you just say something about "so advanced" :lol: When I think of advanced I usually think of something new and, well, advanced. You know like Honda's use of EM clutchpacks in their SH-AWD. I'm not exactly thinking about the ol' viscous coupling, lol. Tried and true it may be, but advanced it certainly isn't.

The Tiguan's AWD system is made by a company called Haldex.
Again WTF? Like I didn't mention the name Haldex like 50 times above? I guess I must have "failed" because I didn't know this, requiring you to restate it?

It's a universal AWD system that is used by a number of different automobile manufacturers. It doesn't have a good reputation
What are you smoking? Since when does Haldex not have a good reputation? Who told you that? The Subaru salesperson? LOL.

As for Subaru being "so advanced" and badmouthing Haldex with nothing to back up such nonsense, I suggest you look into Haldex Traction's XWD system featured in select Saab vehicles.

It functions in almost the same way as the AWD system in Subaru's, but it's not as refined
Define "refined". The below is not a description of refined.

; a hydraulic center differential controlled by a computer. The front and rear differential is open. One other major drawback of the Haldex system is fuel economy, and you'll notice that the Forester gets better fuel economy than the Tiguan. The Tiguan's computer will control slippage, but it will not provide yaw compensation like Subaru's VDC.
Are you high? Haldex has worse fuel economy than a system that drives more than two wheels at all times??? Uh okay then why will an A4 2.0T with Torsen-Quattro get worse fuel economy than another similar-weight/size VAG car equipped with the 2.0T and Haldex-Quattro? Torsen-Quattro is surely the "better" AWD system but trust me it's not going to beat the Haldex car in fuel economy.

Saying the Forester gets better economy than the Tiguan is meaningless. They have different engines, transmissions, and have completely different body styles as well. The Tig weighs more than the Forester to start with. Then the 170hp atmo Forester gets better economy, but it also has 30 less hp and nearly 40lb*ft less torque. It doesn't take a genius to figure that one out, AWD or not. :rolleyes: The 224hp turbo Forester OTOH gets worse highway economy than the Tig.

Also the Tiguan has stability control standard if I'm not mistaken so why would it not be able to correct an adverse yaw situation? Any car with stability control can do that. I'd love to know who told you the Tig doesn't have yaw compensation but I'm willing to bet that's the person at the Subie dealership as well, lol.

Oh and speaking of "yaw compensation" tell me now, why is it so gosh darn easy to power slide the tail end of a regular auto-trans Impreza? :lol:

I did my research before buying my Subaru. Thanks to the fact that Subaru's AWD system is designed in house, it has evolved into one of the best AWD systems in the world.
The sad part is your research was done very poorly because it's pretty clear you don't really understand the differences between AWD systems and not even between AWD and stability control :( It seems to me that your "research" was done entirely while sitting at a Subaru dealership or reading through Subaru literature or watching their videos.

The cruel irony here is of course that you're telling me that I fail, LMFAO :lol: Ohhkaay there :rolleyes:

What you're not understanding is I'm not necessarily badmouthing Subarus, but rather their marketing/sales approach. They sell their cars by using their name, the term "Symmetrical AWD" and advancing the [rather flawed] general impression that Subaru is "the best" in AWD, just because they are Subaru :rolleyes:

Subaru has some good AWD systems, sure, but it's not one system that they have and not every Subaru has the same system nor does the Subaru brainwashing mean every Subaru has "the best" AWD system either. Given they themselves have so many different configurations among their models, there's no way anyone can say they are always the best, all the time; nor can you totally ignore or discount any other AWD system out there just because it's not Subaru. There's lots of different AWD systems out there. Do they operate the same? Of course not! Do they all have the same advantages/disadvantages? Of course not. That doesn't mean they aren't worthwhile and it certainly doesn't mean Subaru is the end-all and be-all of anything.

[ES_Revenge]

ES_Revenge isn't up on his VW news. The Tiguan has Tiptronic. A DSG is probably coming in the near future but it certainly isn't available as yet.
There I stand corrected, I apologise. I did think the Tig had a DSG given it's drivetrain and platform it would make sense. It does have a conventional auto, which is rather disappointing.

[hotweiss]

No, unfortunately it's you that have failed. :rolleyes:


Uh I know what stability control does, this isn't even part of the discussion, yet I fail? More jokes :lol:

Again with the buzzwords and silly names though, VDC LOL. The first part of what you're describing is either the implementation of the traction control portion of stability control (possibly when used as an "electronic diff lock or EDL" from your description). The second part is stability control, plain and simple. Again what that has to do with AWD and what I was talking about (and what the discussion in the thread was about) I have no idea. :confused:


That's great to know but it would be nice if Subaru said something about that in all their advertising/publications/specifications, no? Not just classing every car they produce (for NA) as "Symmetrical AWD". What's so "symmetrical" about a 90:10 split? Obviously Subaru's not telling the average customer anything.


LOL "so advanced". It's certainly not the only system out there that "predicts" slippage.


Wait, viscous coupling? Didn't you just say something about "so advanced" :lol: When I think of advanced I usually think of something new and, well, advanced. You know like Honda's use of EM clutchpacks in their SH-AWD. I'm not exactly thinking about the ol' viscous coupling, lol. Tried and true it may be, but advanced it certainly isn't.


Again WTF? Like I didn't mention the name Haldex like 50 times above? I guess I must have "failed" because I didn't know this, requiring you to restate it?


What are you smoking? Since when does Haldex not have a good reputation? Who told you that? The Subaru salesperson? LOL.

As for Subaru being "so advanced" and badmouthing Haldex with nothing to back up such nonsense, I suggest you look into Haldex Traction's XWD system featured in select Saab vehicles.


Define "refined". The below is not a description of refined.


Are you high? Haldex has worse fuel economy than a system that drives more than two wheels at all times??? Uh okay then why will an A4 2.0T with Torsen-Quattro get worse fuel economy than another similar-weight/size VAG car equipped with the 2.0T and Haldex-Quattro? Torsen-Quattro is surely the "better" AWD system but trust me it's not going to beat the Haldex car in fuel economy.

Saying the Forester gets better economy than the Tiguan is meaningless. They have different engines, transmissions, and have completely different body styles as well. The Tig weighs more than the Forester to start with. Then the 170hp atmo Forester gets better economy, but it also has 30 less hp and nearly 40lb*ft less torque. It doesn't take a genius to figure that one out, AWD or not. :rolleyes: The 224hp turbo Forester OTOH gets worse highway economy than the Tig.

Also the Tiguan has stability control standard if I'm not mistaken so why would it not be able to correct an adverse yaw situation? Any car with stability control can do that. I'd love to know who told you the Tig doesn't have yaw compensation but I'm willing to bet that's the person at the Subie dealership as well, lol.

Oh and speaking of "yaw compensation" tell me now, why is it so gosh darn easy to power slide the tail end of a regular auto-trans Impreza? :lol:


The sad part is your research was done very poorly because it's pretty clear you don't really understand the differences between AWD systems and not even between AWD and stability control :( It seems to me that your "research" was done entirely while sitting at a Subaru dealership or reading through Subaru literature or watching their videos.

The cruel irony here is of course that you're telling me that I fail, LMFAO :lol: Ohhkaay there :rolleyes:

What you're not understanding is I'm not necessarily badmouthing Subarus, but rather their marketing/sales approach. They sell their cars by using their name, the term "Symmetrical AWD" and advancing the [rather flawed] general impression that Subaru is "the best" in AWD, just because they are Subaru :rolleyes:

Subaru has some good AWD systems, sure, but it's not one system that they have and not every Subaru has the same system nor does the Subaru brainwashing mean every Subaru has "the best" AWD system either. Given they themselves have so many different configurations among their models, there's no way anyone can say they are always the best, all the time; nor can you totally ignore or discount any other AWD system out there just because it's not Subaru. There's lots of different AWD systems out there. Do they operate the same? Of course not! Do they all have the same advantages/disadvantages? Of course not. That doesn't mean they aren't worthwhile and it certainly doesn't mean Subaru is the end-all and be-all of anything.

Well the VDC system controls the parameters that define how the center differential behaves, and that is why I kept on mentioning it.

The term "Symmetrical" refers to the centered drive shaft in relation to the engine. The 90:10 torque split in the automatics is mostly there to keep fuel efficiency higher. Were as the 50:50 torque split can be implemented in the manual version with out a huge mileage punishment

No it's not the only one out there that predicts slippage, as there others out there like Acura's SH-AWD; and Nissan's ATTESA E-TS Pro (only in Skyline GT-R) is considered to be the best.

The viscous coupling units are really great since they have a full time 50:50 torque split, and they don't require maintenance. Practically speaking this is better than having a reactive EM-plate solution in extreme cases like racing. And yes the Haldex system (4th gen) in the new Saab's is quite advanced, but it's not the one that is in the Tiguan.

I am using refined in this context to mean perfected.

Yes, the Haldex system in the Tiguan has poor fuel economy in comparison to some of the other AWD technologies out there. The new Haldex system in the Saab's has addressed this issue. The Torsen system in the Audi Quattro is probably one of the best AWD systems out there. The Haldex AWD system in the Tiguan is a mediocre reactive system at best.

Go to fueleconomy.gov to see the difference in mileage between the two.

Yes VW offers stability control, but it is no where as advanced as Subaru's.

[trilinearmipmap]

Hotweiss has clearly won the debate about AWD. Not that he needs to, everybody knows that Subaru's AWD system is superb.

Another thing to point out is the relative reliability of Subaru vs. Volkswagen. Subarus consistently rate among the highest makes for reliability in Consumer Reports (not to mention their top safety rating). Volkswagen's reliability is questionable and when you do go in for the inevitable repairs you can count on spending a small fortune.

[medellru]

I would suggest Suzuki Grand Vitara old with 2.7 or new with 3.2. We have it for 1 year and no problem whatsoever till now. The true 4WD vehicle.

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/620/img0874oc8.th.jpg (http://img507.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0874oc8.jpg)http://img507.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

[Emancipated]

Hotweiss has clearly won the debate about AWD. Not that he needs to, everybody knows that Subaru's AWD system is superb.

Another thing to point out is the relative reliability of Subaru vs. Volkswagen. Subarus consistently rate among the highest makes for reliability in Consumer Reports (not to mention their top safety rating). Volkswagen's reliability is questionable and when you do go in for the inevitable repairs you can count on spending a small fortune.

Since when are VW parts costly? I thought they were pretty comparable. Are we talking BMW-esque expensive?

Hotweiss has clearly won the debate about AWD. Not that he needs to, everybody knows that Subaru's AWD system is superb.

Another thing to point out is the relative reliability of Subaru vs. Volkswagen. Subarus consistently rate among the highest makes for reliability in Consumer Reports (not to mention their top safety rating). Volkswagen's reliability is questionable and when you do go in for the inevitable repairs you can count on spending a small fortune.

Since when are VW parts costly? I thought they were pretty comparable. Are we talking BMW-esque expensive?

[B0000rt]

CHeck this out, has some of the mentioned Small utes in the article
http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=609569&topart=utes

[hotweiss]

Since when are VW parts costly? I thought they were pretty comparable. Are we talking BMW-esque expensive?



Since when are VW parts costly? I thought they were pretty comparable. Are we talking BMW-esque expensive?

My last car was a VW TDI. Parts were pretty expensive, but that's because it was a diesel. I'm sure parts for regular gas cars aren't too bad...