Issue with trade-in, seeking help please

[longtimeRFDreader]

Long time user of RFD, just never had the habit of posting. Thanks in advance for those who reply, I'm kinda in a sticky situation where I would like advice from experience car buyers asap.

I plan to lease a new car (2009 Acura TSX). I currently have a fully-paid 04 Honda Civic Si 4-door, auto + lots of goodies (85k mileage). My intention was to trade-in (as in selling) to the dealer - cashing in, and lease the TSX brand new.

After spending much effort negotiating, they are willing to accept my Civic for $10k. But the salesman did a poor job (shall I even use the term "misleading") in explaining that it's actually $10k - provincial tax. Hence the actual amount going into my pocket is roughly $9k. During the negotiation, my gf and I understood $10k in my pocket right from the beginning. Even the next day when I meet the Commercial Manager (her real title) to discuss insurance options, rustproofing et credit application, she even explains to me that it will be $10k minus the rest (first month lease payment, AC tax, multi-term deposit, etc...). I still have that piece of paper with her handwriting on it.

Things seem to be going smoothly, few days later, salesman call back to "confirm" the deal (and letting me know that they are brining my car to the lot), it was then that I was told it's not $10k into my pocket. He explained to me that he used the $10k of my car to subtract from the new car's selling price, hence the tax for the lease monthly payments are on the subtracted value (and not on the actual amount). But to me, that makes no difference if I have to pay $1000 of tax today in order to save $1000 worth of tax in the next 4 years of monthly payments. The bottom line is that I'm still down $1k from what I agreed upon for my Civic.

The other important point, the salesman did make a handwritten draft contract, clearly stating my lease monthly payment amount, and the $10k as trade-in. I signed that initial offer contract. They also took $1k as deposit from my credit card, while waiting for delivery.

At this point, what are my options? Delivery of the car has not been done, I haven't signed the final contract. I have no intention to suffer another $1k short, the selling price was not even spectacular to begin with (09 TSX is a new model afterall). My civic can EASILY sell for $12k or more if done privately. I said to myself, well I don't mind letting them earn the $1500 or so, if I don't have to go through the private selling process.

Can I refuse to trade-in my car as of right now? Can I delay the delivery until I am able to sell the car privately for more first? Will the sales manager agree to renegotiate the terms if I explain to them that they are risking an easy profit of $4 to $5k just by reselling my Civic in the used car lot? Plus because they are pissing me off, they will lose more for not having me bringing to his dealership for maintenance?

Please advise.

[pseudo]

sell the civic privately and buy acura later..

[ericssonboi]

Although the TSX is nice, have you considered the 08 TL?
With new redesigned models in 09, you might get a bigger discount.

[ruvz]

a used civic should not be a problem to sell... do yourself a favour and put an ad in the paper and it should be gone by the weekend... I would get my deposit back from the dealer and tell them where to stick it

[longtimeRFDreader]

Thanks for the suggestions.

My car is very well maintained, not only I have all the Honda receipts to show, it comes with a bundle of audio equipment. (Yeah I know, they dont worth much when resale... it's still good for next guy).

My biggest concern is, am I legally liable (forced) to accept delivery at the negotiated terms by signing a draft (handwritten by salesman) contract?

At this point, I don't even know my VIN yet. Credit is approved of course but nothing is delivered. I believe I have a legit reason to back off from the deal, feel mislead by the salesman.

Please keep the suggestions coming.

[boyoflondon]

Man ... even at 10k that is nothing!!

Rule #1 of everything and anything ...... NEVER TRUST A SALESMAN!!!!!

Rule #2 - read things 10 times over if you have to before signing anything!!

[AGR-1]

Did you sign a sales or lease contract or a worksheet?

In Quebec a representative of the dealer signs first the purchaser signs second...the instant the representative of the dealer signs its a valid transaction.

Are they playing the game of 10 taxes in, but its only 9 in real money, there must have been a misunderstanding?

If you want money back from your car, why did you give a deposit from a credit card?

Between you, your girlfriend, the sales person, the business manager there seems to be a degree of confusion....start over again and see who misunderstood what....or simply walk away and get your money back.

The sales person is conditioned to get a deposit, to take a car in trade, and to represent the value of the car "taxes in" (it looks better)...you were selling your car to the dealer and getting your money out of of your car.

On a lease the dealer is correct that even if you just sell a car by showing it as a trade on the lease you can save taxes on your monthly payments.

The dealer should have said its 9,000 in real money for your car, plus you get a 1,000 tax credit for a total of 10,000.

If you understood 10,000 in real money for your car, and no tax credit you are 1,000 apart.

Ideally since you wanted to sell your car, you had no business giving a deposit, and you should have discounted whatever was owed on the lease from whatever was owed to you...it would have been easier.

Ex: 10,000 for your car minus 2,000 for the lease = a check for 8,000 to you that would have been simple to understand.

[Pete_Coach]

It would seem to me that because you have no signed the finals sales agreement that you hold the cards but, since Quebec uses the civil code law vice common (English) law for the rest of the Country, I am not sure if the deal is considered consummated upon a verbal agreement or not. Those folks that are giving advice hopefully are informed about the differences in the two legal systems and their laws governing sales contracts.
One attempt may be to that you can try to tell them to shove it, walk away, see what happens, if nothing, then sell your car privately and go back to the dealer and do the best cash deal you can.

[longtimeRFDreader]

Really appreciate the responses guys.

On the paper I signed, there was no MSRP, negotiated price or taxes mentioned (hence total price). Most importantly, there was no VIN. It's a multiple carbon-copy paper stating my monthly lease payment, the $10000 trade-in, the amount of security deposit, and a bunch of checkboxes representing the options equipped on the car. It's all handwritten. How does that constitute a purchase/lease contract? If we were to distinguish between "contract" and "worksheet", it's definitely "worksheet".

The final sales/lease contract contains all the numbers typed, and my signature is due at delivery. No delivery at this point.

I agreed to pay a security deposit to lower the interest rate, which is fully recoverable at the end of 4 years. The $1000 deposit from my credit card is their incentive to go grab the car, this amount must be refunded at delivery. It's still $0 downpayment for the lease.

The only amount that was mentioned relevant to the trade-in was $10k. Like AGR-1 said, the salesman should present me numbers that are after tax to prevent confusion. Because in reality, as soon as I hear that I'm actually pocketing $9k for my car, I would have said no. Thus I'm furious because when he explained the $10k on the "contract" to have my signature, but only to call my a few days later to say it's $9k, that's the dealbreaker.

Now they will come to me and say that the business manager also misunderstood the numbers, and what she quoted me is not valid unlike the "contract". What bullcrap.

My goal is to still buy a new car, never intended to waste anyone's time. Although I am expecting the sales manager to meet with me at this point, I'm reluctant in renegotiating the terms with these clowns. They have already exposed their lousy sales tactics, and I would be glad to buy it somewhere else. The current sales experience that I am going through, does not warrant my hard earned money.

So if anyone know what are the legal powers that their "worksheet" have, I am interested to know and evaluate my options.

Thanks again.

[Tiberius]

If I were in your shoes, I would be playing hard ball and letting them know I am NOT impressed with their games and attempts to trick you. It's a common sales tactic to do a switch like this at the last second because (unfortunately) most people will not fight it and will still complete the deal. They get "invested" in the process, have fallen in love with the car they are purchasing, don't want any more hassles, etc... What is the incentive for the dealership to be fair when they can pull this stunt and make another thousand on most cars they sell?

I would demand the 10,000 trade in value + tax savings as that is what was negotiated. Tell them you have bought cars before and the trade-in value was always the actual value and the BENEFIT of selling as a trade-in was the TAX SAVINGS on the new vehicle. Make it clear they never said it was a "total" savings they were offering you - so there claim that is what it was is B.S and deceptive.

Be strong and be prepared to walk away. They might try to pull some crap where they offer to split the difference or something - but personally, I wouldn't budge a bit. I'd walk unless they meet the conditions you originally agreed too.

You always have the option of selling the car privately, and then buying the same vehicle from another dealership instead of the one that treated you poorly.

You say you haven't signed anything so I think you are in good shape. They also likely won't want to lose the sale so you should be able to get them to honour the "real" agreement.

- The one thing for you to be clear on is... what exactly did the paper you sign say / contain? If it contained monthly lease payments, etc... then it sounds very detailed. If they didn't write down that you owe a specific amount of money as an immediate payment then based on that paperwork, you simply owe the monthly payments. If they try to claim that is a signed contract, you can point that out and say "Great... so I pay you xxx a month and that's it... thanks! no downpayment!" However, if that paperwork shows a downpayment - and that includes the taxes for the trade-in - then they technically did present that "cost" to you. However, it sounds like they did NOT write down this trade-in tax as a downpayment amount! Hence - no possible signed contractual agreement to pay it!

[GTT1]

Ask them if the price quoted on the car was all in also seeing as the trade in was?

[Tiberius]

Ask them if the price quoted on the car was all in also seeing as the trade in was?

OOooo... I like that one... :lol:

[mr_raider]

In Quebec the deal is not final until an agreement of purchase has been signed by both parties. It inlcudes all terms including the price of the new vehicle, trade in and all extraneous fees. It also specifies the exact model and options of the vehicle you are buying. It is a standard form used by all dealers in Quebec.

The final sale contract will be given you on the date of delivery.

[longtimeRFDreader]

I have done a lot of research since last night and I truly believe that I hold all the cards.

The links below from the "Consumer Protection Bureau of Quebec" clearly defines what constitute a Sales Contract, and my rights during the purchase/lease of a new car. Unfortunately they are all in French, use Google translate if you are interested in reading.

http://www.opc.gouv.qc.ca/WebForms/SujetsConsommation/Vehicules/AchatVoitureNeuve/ContratVente.aspx

http://www.opc.gouv.qc.ca/Documents/Publications/APropos/AP_Annuler_Contrat_Location_Long_Terme.pdf

In short, the contract must contain vital information such as the VIN, delivery date and actual prices (selling price, retail price, taxes, monthly payments). None of these were present on the paper I sign. In english, this draft is simply called a "Lease Proposal". Therefore, there is no legal liability in signing that draft, as mr_raider said, the final sales contract happens on delivery, and it has yet to occur.

In addition, even if they now agreed to give me $1k for my trade-in, the PDF clearly states my right to refuse the deal, as long as the delivery is not made (sales contract not signed). They cannot refuse to refund my deposit of $1k. If they refuse to void the draft and take me to court, it also says that if I was treated under prejudice or unfairness, the judge will rule in my favour. In my case, I hold a handwritten paper showing the $10k worth for my trade in from the Business Manager, which is directly conflicting to what the salesman proposed.

Now that I have proof and I know my rights, I'm no longer afraid to tell them to shove it and take my money elsewhere.

(Of course, if the sales Manager is willing to sell the car at invoice, I'm always open for renegotiation, it's all about money. They are risking $4k easy profit for reselling my car, and 4 years worth of maintenance of my new car on top of the sale - for peanuts, that's their loss, not mine.)

[cynick]

can you tell us what happened in the end? :)
Did the dealer try to play more games?