[Merged] WTF? Greyhound Bus drama near Portage La Prairie MB

[peroxide8888]

Just watching CBC Newsworld and there was a story of this incident which has occurred Wed night aboard a Greyhound Bus near Portage La Prairie MB. Some guy suddenly went psycho and stabbed and decapitated the male passenger who was beside him!

WTF is that about?!?! Some people really need to be removed from society and the gene pool!

Here's the CBC.ca story: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/07/31/greyhound-transcanada.html

[Feneant]

I love how the police 'negotiated' to get him to come out...

Come on- with a guy like that the only way to negotiate it to stick a few bullets in his head.

What in the world possess someone to do that to another human being? It is insance.

[Blunt]

Wow.. Crazy!!
Did the killer even know his victim??



Bus passenger decapitated in Manitoba
Jul 31, 2008 08:58 AM
Be the first to comment on this article...
THE CANADIAN PRESS

PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE, Man. – Police haven't confirmed it, but a passenger says a gruesome attack on a Greyhound bus near Portage la Prairie, Man., has left a young man stabbed to death and decapitated and dozens of passengers in shock.

The RCMP and Greyhound officials will only say that a "major incident" occurred on the bus Wednesday night, but have not provided any details.

But a passenger who said he saw the attack said a man repeatedly stabbed a seatmate, and eventually severed his head.

"We heard this blood-curdling scream and turned around and the guy was standing up, stabbing this guy repeatedly, like 40 or 50 times," Garnet Caton said Thursday morning from a hotel in Brandon, where he and other passengers had been taken to rest.

Caton said everyone on the bus scrambled to get out, and he and the bus driver shut the door from the outside while they awaited police.

Eventually, the attacker came to the front of the bus and showed them he had cut off the victim's head, Caton said.

The bus had been carrying 37 passengers and the driver to Winnipeg from Edmonton.

At one point, Mounties surrounded the bus with one officer standing just a few feet away from an unidentified man sitting in the driver's seat.

A man was taken into custody after the standoff with police.

A portion of the Trans-Canada Highway, about 15 kilometres west of Portage la Prairie, remained closed Thursday morning.

Yellow tape surrounded the empty bus and RCMP officers were still on the scene. Traffic was being rerouted onto a side road.

[peroxide8888]

Here's the story on CTV: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080731/Manitoba_bus_080731/20080731?hub=TopStories

There's a video with a reporter who was on scene.

[Blunt]

I hope a video of the actual incident DOES NOT show up..

[sexpuppet6000]

"a truck driver then arrived at the scene and handed out wrenches and crowbars"

[Odysseus_Maximus]

Crazy 50 times...

[Debonair]

What the heck!?! I'm never going on a Greyhound bus again!!

[Rekognize]

wtf?? :confused:

bus terminals should have the same level of security as airports. this wouldn't happen if the guy went through a metal detector/body search prior to boarding the bus

sick sick sick

[LonesomeDove]

Everyone should be wary about the guy who sits next to you on the bus. He could be a homicidal maniac. You never know when you might lose your head.

[Aznsilvrboy]

...damn...what a crazy man...

[st7860]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/07/31/greyhound-transcanada.html
A passenger repeatedly stabbed and then decapitated another person aboard a Greyhound bus travelling through Manitoba overnight, a witness said Thursday.

Police officers were examining the Greyhound bus after a man repeatedly stabbed another passenger. (CBC)Police would not confirm the reports, only saying that a "major incident" took place around 9 p.m. Wednesday evening in the bus as it drove along the Trans-Canada Highway west of Portage la Prairie en route to Winnipeg from Edmonton.

The killing took place on the Trans-Canada about 18 kilometres west of Portage la Prairie, a city about 85 kilometres west of Winnipeg. A man is in police custody.

Passenger Garnet Caton told CBC News on Thursday that the attacker had been sitting beside the victim, who was sleeping with his headphones on.

Caton said he heard a "blood-curdling scream" and saw the man holding a large "Rambo" hunting knife above the victim, "continually stabbing him in the chest area," he said.

"He must have stabbed him 50 times or 60 times," said Caton.

About 37 panicked passengers and the bus driver fled the bus. "The whole time, the attacker was over top of the victim. He is continually cutting him. I think the victim was gone at that point," Caton said.

Caton said the attacker appeared "totally normal" earlier in the journey after boarding around Brandon, and chatted with a young lady as he smoked a cigarette during a break.

But when he got back on the bus, he moved his belongings from the front to a seat beside the victim in the back and about 20 minutes later began attacking the man, said Caton. "He didn't say anything to the victim at all," said Caton.

Once the bus pulled over and passengers fled, Caton, the driver and a trucker who stopped at the scene boarded the vehicle to see if the victim was still alive.

"When we came back on the bus, it was visible at the end of the bus he was cutting the guy's head off and pretty much gutting him up," said Caton.

The attacker ran at them, Caton said, and they ran out of the bus, holding the door shut as he tried to slash at the trio.

When the attacker began fiddling with buttons and trying to drive the bus, Caton says the driver disabled the vehicle.

"While we were watching the door, he calmly walks up to the front with the head in his hand and the knife and just calmly stares at us and drops the head right in front of us," said Caton.

Caton described the attacker as surprisingly calm. "It was like he was at the beach or something. There was no rage in him. He wasn't swearing or cursing or anything. It was just like he was a robot or something."

Police cruisers arrived about 10 minutes later, he estimates, and began directing passengers to school buses to take them to a hotel in Brandon. The attacker picked up the head.

"While we were waiting on the side of the road, he was taunting the police with the head in his hand," said Caton.

A six-year-old and other children were among the passengers who saw the gruesome incident unfold, said Caton.

"It was pretty traumatic," he said, adding that some passengers said they have been unable to sleep or eat since it happened.

A chaplain and crisis team were on hand to counsel passengers at the hotel, he said.

Officers were still at the scene early Thursday morning and brought portable search lights to examine the bus, the CBC's Sean Kavanagh reported. Traffic was being rerouted to a side road.

Abby Wambaugh, media relations spokeswoman for Greyhound Canada, said there were 37 passengers and a driver aboard the bus.

She would not comment on what happened on the bus.

"I don't want to compromise the investigation, so any details need to be confirmed by the police," she said.

[Blunt]

Wow,.. taunting the cops with head.
Screw negotiations. SHOOT THE GUY!!!

[George W. Bush]

If this would have happened in a country with the same level of "justice" as in Canada - the dude who murdered his victim would have been killed on the spot right there by the others.

In Canada this person can now please "insanity" and get off...

What a stupid system... what about this poor victim? Where are his rights? What about his family? Where is justice?

The murderer should face the same fate as his actions. In Canada and certain countries, the judges and the lawyers will take a stab at it, make a load of money (ie. taxpayers money that is), send the murder to some asylum, and he will be walking the streets again in 5 years...

Let's not talk about drunk drivers...

[st7860]

If this would have happened in a country with the same level of "justice" as in Canada - the dude who murdered his victim would have been killed on the spot right there by the others.

In Canada this person can now please "insanity" and get off...

What a stupid system... what about this poor victim? Where are his rights? What about his family? Where is justice?

The murderer should face the same fate as his actions. In Canada and certain countries, the judges and the lawyers will take a stab at it, make a load of money (ie. taxpayers money that is), send the murder to some asylum, and he will be walking the streets again in 5 years...

Let's not talk about drunk drivers...

i hereby and solemnly declare, +1

[ReDmAn]

how much was the bus fare?

[LonesomeDove]

If this would have happened in a country with the same level of "justice" as in Canada - the dude who murdered his victim would have been killed on the spot right there by the others.

A couple of recent incidents in Israel where bulldozer drivers killed and injured people.

The drivers were killed on the spot by passerbys. They did not politely asked them to surrender.

[Emancipated]

how much was the bus fare?

You think he flipped because of the fare?

[mmhassa2]

You think he flipped because of the fare?

I think he's referring to the $1 bus fares (Neon/megabus), resulting in crazy people getting one the bus? lol :lol:

[Nikita]

If this would have happened in a country with the same level of "justice" as in Canada - the dude who murdered his victim would have been killed on the spot right there by the others.

In Canada this person can now please "insanity" and get off...

What a stupid system... what about this poor victim? Where are his rights? What about his family? Where is justice?

The murderer should face the same fate as his actions. In Canada and certain countries, the judges and the lawyers will take a stab at it, make a load of money (ie. taxpayers money that is), send the murder to some asylum, and he will be walking the streets again in 5 years...

Let's not talk about drunk drivers...

How exactly does the judge make 'a load of money' out of this? The guy's defense lawyer, sure, the judge....nu uh. Let's at least complain about the right people here...and that would be the accused, nobody else.

[cq358]

how much was the bus fare?

$160 from Toronto to Vancouver

I took Greyhound from Toronto to Thunder Bay. They merged 2 empty bus into 1 bus and I forced to sit at the back with a homeless (drug trafficker). He smell like a rotten diaper and after my 22 hours ride we arrived to Thunder Bay. The following day Thunder Bay discovered the largest 1 million drug trafficking using Greyhound bus and guess what. It is the same **** train I rode along for last 22 hrs.

[Empz]

I love it how police will "negotiate" with sick-fcuks like this, while regular citizens get tasered to death because they are not 'cooperating'.

Why didn't anyone put a bullet or two in his head or a hail of bullets for that matter?

Hmmm lets see, a man holding a big @ss knife and a freshly decapitated human head vs someone like "Sean Bell" ... guess who gets shot?

Stuff like this pisses me off to no end. I'm sure the family of the victim wouldn't mind if the man that chopped off their son's head was shot in the face.

-E

[Rosico]

wow, just wow. no taser use either eh?!

[Ebola]

I love how the police 'negotiated' to get him to come out...

Come on- with a guy like that the only way to negotiate it to stick a few bullets in his head.

What in the world possess someone to do that to another human being? It is insance.

The police are wrong no matter what they do.

If they rush in and he ends up dead, you have people crying about how they didnt attempt to defuse the situation. Or if they shoot him, people will ask why they didnt use the taser, if they taser him, they'll ask why didnt they ninja-karate kick the knife out of his hand then gang tackle him.

If they dont rush in, people are outraged that they didnt immediately shoot down this "crazy man". The public doesnt know what they want, and react emotionally. They percieve this man as deserving of being killed, and expect police to meter out that punishment. Which is not their job. There job is to bring him before a court. They've established everyone is off the bus except the man, the vicitim is clearly dead as his head is sitting there.

So at that point he isnt presenting a threat of death or grievous bodily harm while he's trapped on the bus. If he comes off that bus at the police/crowd, then it's time for some deadly force. If you can get him to surrender, you take him into custody.

Looks to me like this guy was stalking the sleeping victim. I have my doubts that this was a totally random act of violence.

Either way, he DOES deserve to rot.

[TinaMcG]

Oh my god, the poor victim. I know I just zone out or half-fall asleep on the bus...>:( I'm going to get nervous on buses now. I can just see in my mind's eye the killer dropping the head in front of the group of shocked passengers...and he seemed so normal to everyone too!

[Empz]

I agree with you completely, especially the Ninja-Karate-Kick line. Too funny :) The public really doesn't know what they want.

There's a difference between tasering a subdued / handcuffed person versus shooting a physcho that stepped out of a horror flick. Now I want to see that man dead (yep I said it), just to know there's one less sick b@stard like that on the streets.

It just seems like everything is backwards these days, people that should be shot / tazered are not!

-E

The police are screwed no matter what they do.

If they rush in and he ends up dead, you have people crying about how they didnt attempt to defuse the situation. Or if they shoot him, people will ask why they didnt use the taser, if they taser him, they'll ask why didnt they ninja-karate kick the knife out of his hand then gang tackle him.

If they dont rush in, people are outraged that they didnt immediately shoot down this "crazy man". The public doesnt know what they want, and react emotionally. They percieve this man as deserving of being killed, and expect police to meter out that punishment. Which is not their job. There job is to bring him before a court.

Looks to me like this guy was stalking the sleeping victim. I have my doubt this was a totally random act of violence.

Either way, he deserves to rot.

[Squally425]

The police are wrong no matter what they do.
If they rush in and he ends up dead, you have people crying about how they didnt attempt to defuse the situation. Or if they shoot him, people will ask why they didnt use the taser, if they taser him, they'll ask why didnt they ninja-karate kick the knife out of his hand then gang tackle him.


I don't know...
Your other points I agree with.
But for this one.. specifically relating to this case... I wouldn't care if this man was shot as many times as needed to kill him.

[Alvito]

this is the most ****ed up thing i have ever heard in my life.

[v_tofu]

wtf?? :confused:

bus terminals should have the same level of security as airports. this wouldn't happen if the guy went through a metal detector/body search prior to boarding the bus

sick sick sick


Doesn't Matter. Have you ever taken the greyhound? They stop and pick up passengers all over the highway. Even through the small towns and the 1 hr breaks in between destinations. Sure, I guess you can install them in the big cities, but I can't see them installing them at every gas station, unless the driver gives everyone a pat down.

[JAC]

That's our health-care system for you; lord knows how many disturbed people are running around off their meds when they should be in an institution.

[MasterXan]

I would like to hear from Nikita on how the cops did a good job for not shooting the psycho.

:D

[canadien99]

Wow.. Crazy!!
Did the killer even know his victim??

A quote from 680 news shows that they didn't know each other.

But the real question is ...

What would cause anyone to do this ???? Was it racially motivated or jealousy motivated ??? Why didn't HE stab himself 50 times ????

The young guy he sat beside had headphones (probably an ipod or something) who probably appeared to have a bright future, and the 30 year old psycho was probably an unsuccessful bum with a confidence problem ...

What do you guys think ?

Be aware of your surroundings ... i'm going to be careful flashing my ipod the next time ...


"The guy came to the front of the door with buddy's head in his hands, decapitated. He dropped the head and went back and started cutting the body back up," Olmstead said.

Both men said the attacker and the victim appeared not to know each other.

They said the attacker boarded the bus in Brandon Wednesday night. The victim, who Caton said appeared to be about 19, had been on the bus since Edmonton.

[Ebola]

A quote from 680 news shows that they didn't know each other.

But the real question is ...

What would cause anyone to do this ???? Was it racially motivated or jealousy motivated ??? Why didn't HE stab himself 50 times ????

The young guy he sat beside had headphones (probably an ipod or something) who probably appeared to have a bright future, and the 30 year old psycho was probably an unsuccessful bum with a confidence problem ...

What do you guys think ?

Be aware of your surroundings ... i'm going to be careful flashing my ipod the next time ...

Way too little information at this point to conclude that it was random.

People on the bus, who guaranteed were not paying very much attention at all to everyone else until all hell broke loose, are now saying that it "appeared" they didnt know each other, because they werent seen talking in the seat or elsewhere.

Based on the story as reported in the media, it looks like he waited till the young man was asleep THEN sat down beside him. That at first blush looks a bit like targetted , planned behvaiour. Now it could be random, or he could have been stalking this guy for whatever reason.

[rb]

You get mentally disturbed people everywhere and anywhere - recently in TO there was that guy who pushed a stranger onto a subway track, in Japan there was a nutter who went on a stabbing spree. Fortunately these are very rare incidences, you need to be alert around you as much as possible but don't be paranoid. This poor fellow fell asleep - the number of times I have nodded off on a Go train/bus, makes you think

[chrome_dout]

What a terrible story. Poor kid, and to the others that had to witness this. The killer should have been shot in the stomach and left to die.

[ReDmAn]

do they have bathrooms on grayhound busses?

[CheapScotsman]

My heart goes out to the victim and his family

2nd degree murder or manslaughter and he'll be out in 10 (or less). The victim and his family get life .... isn't this a great system we have?

[Squally425]

Could of been a homeless man who just wanted a place to live.
Now he gets to live in a jail for 10 years. (Only?)

People like that really shouldn't be given the chance to breed.

[dragon_drift]

Disturbing... suddenly i don't feel safe on the TTC :confused:

[WontonTiger]

The police are wrong no matter what they do.

If they rush in and he ends up dead, you have people crying about how they didnt attempt to defuse the situation. Or if they shoot him, people will ask why they didnt use the taser, if they taser him, they'll ask why didnt they ninja-karate kick the knife out of his hand then gang tackle him.

If they dont rush in, people are outraged that they didnt immediately shoot down this "crazy man". The public doesnt know what they want, and react emotionally. They percieve this man as deserving of being killed, and expect police to meter out that punishment. Which is not their job. There job is to bring him before a court. They've established everyone is off the bus except the man, the vicitim is clearly dead as his head is sitting there.

So at that point he isnt presenting a threat of death or grievous bodily harm while he's trapped on the bus. If he comes off that bus at the police/crowd, then it's time for some deadly force. If you can get him to surrender, you take him into custody.

Looks to me like this guy was stalking the sleeping victim. I have my doubts that this was a totally random act of violence.

Either way, he DOES deserve to rot.

You're complicating this instance.

In this situation, as the offender taunts the police, WITH A BLOODY DECAPITATED HEAD IN HIS HAND, I don't think anyone would fault the police for ending him.

Why would you "negotiate" with someone who is obviously not of right mind. It's like talking to a wall. Now that I think about it, it's practically the DEFINITION of insanity.

[gen.d00dz]

give power back to the people. let us carry our own guns.

[GangStarr]

If this would have happened in a country with the same level of "justice" as in Canada - the dude who murdered his victim would have been killed on the spot right there by the others.

In Canada this person can now please "insanity" and get off...

What a stupid system... what about this poor victim? Where are his rights? What about his family? Where is justice?

The murderer should face the same fate as his actions. In Canada and certain countries, the judges and the lawyers will take a stab at it, make a load of money (ie. taxpayers money that is), send the murder to some asylum, and he will be walking the streets again in 5 years...

Let's not talk about drunk drivers...

Pleaing insanity doesn't get you off the hook. It gets you a life sentance in a mental hospital with no chance of porole unless a doctor says you've been rehabilitated, which doesn't usually happen.

With regards to the comment "shoot him, shoot him". I believe there was still passengers on the bus which adds to the danger of executing the individual. Also someone who has done something like this would probably want to commit "suicide by cop".

About drunk drivers, we treat them FAR more hard then they do in the US.

[Empz]

From what I gather, there was no one left on the bus except the victim and the nut job. If he really wanted suicide by police he would have charged them.

I wonder what I would do if I was a cop and first on the scene. Itchy trigger finger that's for sure.

-E


Pleaing insanity doesn't get you off the hook. It gets you a life sentance in a mental hospital with no chance of porole unless a doctor says you've been rehabilitated, which doesn't usually happen.

With regards to the comment "shoot him, shoot him". I believe there was still passengers on the bus which adds to the danger of executing the individual. Also someone who has done something like this would probably want to commit "suicide by cop".

About drunk drivers, we treat them FAR more hard then they do in the US.

[Dano76]

You're complicating this instance.

In this situation, as the offender taunts the police, WITH A BLOODY DECAPITATED HEAD IN HIS HAND, I don't think anyone would fault the police for ending him.

Why would you "negotiate" with someone who is obviously not of right mind. It's like talking to a wall. Now that I think about it, it's practically the DEFINITION of insanity.

No, you are missing the point.

That is your opinion, and it is guaranteed that someone disagrees with you. So, whichever route the coppers chose, someone would disagree... and likely label the coppers as villains.

[Nikita]

I love it how police will "negotiate" with sick-fcuks like this, while regular citizens get tasered to death because they are not 'cooperating'.

Why didn't anyone put a bullet or two in his head or a hail of bullets for that matter?

-E

Likely because they're were other people who would be put at risk with gunfire? Gunfire that was not necessary at that point as nobody else was at risk. Shooting him wasn't necessary except as punishment, which isn't the job of police. I'm sure if they could have got close enough, they would have tased him, but they were obviously able to resolve the situation without the use of weapons at all. And yes, I think that's a good thing.

I would like to hear from Nikita on how the cops did a good job for not shooting the psycho.

:D

An excellent job actually! I'm sure not many people are trained well enough to talk a 'psycho' down in the state of mind he was obviously in! Kudos to the negotiator!

You're complicating this instance.

In this situation, as the offender taunts the police, WITH A BLOODY DECAPITATED HEAD IN HIS HAND, I don't think anyone would fault the police for ending him.

Why would you "negotiate" with someone who is obviously not of right mind. It's like talking to a wall. Now that I think about it, it's practically the DEFINITION of insanity.

Obviously it's not like talking to a wall, it worked didn't it? BTW, it's not a crime to be a psycho and it's not something we shoot people for. A shoot would only have been justified if there was an ongoing risk to the safety of others, which there wasn't. Why wouldn't a cop negotiate with someone in this situation? Personally I'm very impressed with the cops' ability to diffuse the situation without any further loss of life.

And if they did shoot him because he had "A BLOODY DECAPITATED HEAD IN HIS HAND", he surely would have been faulted, probably disciplined, likely suspended for some time and probably charged with murder (or some variation of homicide).

A cop can't just shoot someone because they've committed (past tense) a heinous crime. They can only shoot to prevent a criminal act, not to punish for one.

Bottom line is the cops did exactly what they were supposed to do, what they were trained to do, and did it quite well IMO.

[winstona]

Cops are human being too! Who wouldn't be scared when some nut job uses a decapitated head to taunt at you with one hand and a bloody knife in another?

This story is insane and the most twisted thing I heard in a long time...:(

[chrza]

Likely because they're were other people who would be put at risk with gunfire? Gunfire that was not necessary at that point as nobody else was at risk. Shooting him wasn't necessary except as punishment, which isn't the job of police. I'm sure if they could have got close enough, they would have tased him, but they were obviously able to resolve the situation without the use of weapons at all. And yes, I think that's a good thing.

Agreed. I don't see why they would have to shoot him (and I don't mean that in a sympathetic way towards the killer). From what I understand from the article, everyone fled from the bus and the victim was long gone. Definitely a good thing. I'm sure the family would like some sort of answer as to why the guy did it, not to mention that death is too easy a way out for this guy.

[aimfox]

i guess i wont be taking the greyhound ever again

[chococrazy]

i guess i wont be taking the greyhound ever again

A person got killed crossing the street. OMG I'm never crossing a street AGAIN!

[Empz]

Sorry, that was just my play at the whole "Sean Bell" case with the "hail of bullets"

-E

Likely because they're were other people who would be put at risk with gunfire? Gunfire that was not necessary at that point as nobody else was at risk. Shooting him wasn't necessary except as punishment, which isn't the job of police. I'm sure if they could have got close enough, they would have tased him, but they were obviously able to resolve the situation without the use of weapons at all. And yes, I think that's a good thing.

[blainehamilton]

This screams of the killer being insane, cooked on drugs, or even a nice mix of both...

Because the two passengers boarded 2 provinces and a day apart, it's pretty unlikely the victim was stalked or targeted before the trip. Odds are, the killer just snapped, or already was snapped before he boarded.

The only positive thing I can see happening out of this is Greyhound requiring security checks of it's passengers before boarding. The guy had a friggin rambo style knife, so he obviously wasn't a 'normal', contributing member of society from this first impression!!!

Prevent the knife from being on the bus in the first place, and maybe the victim would have had a fighting chance, or the other passengers could have helped him.

In any case, as soon as the stabbing started, I would have been all for a bullet ending his assault, beit from the police or the driver. Maybe a tazer in the drivers hands might have saved an innocent life here!

[gordholio]

In a day and age when nothing is shocking anymore and society is desensitized, this is still very shocking and disturbing. Prayers and thoughts go out to the family. Amazing someone could be allowed to have a knife on the bus though.

[7jai]

If this would have happened in a country with the same level of "justice" as in Canada - the dude who murdered his victim would have been killed on the spot right there by the others.

In Canada this person can now please "insanity" and get off...

What a stupid system... what about this poor victim? Where are his rights? What about his family? Where is justice?

The murderer should face the same fate as his actions. In Canada and certain countries, the judges and the lawyers will take a stab at it, make a load of money (ie. taxpayers money that is), send the murder to some asylum, and he will be walking the streets again in 5 years...

Let's not talk about drunk drivers...


This is what distinguishes Canada from the rest of the world. If you dislike the way things are run, you are more then welcome to go to the States or somewhere else that promotes the death penalty and furthur killings.

[blainehamilton]

Amazing someone could be allowed to have a knife on the bus though.


It's been 10+ years since I had to ride a greyhound for a 2 hour trip from Edmonton to Red Deer and back. People used to have knives, drink booze, smoke dope, etc. I can't imagine it's much better now.

The bus is the lowest common denominator of short and long range travel, except for hitchhiking or riding the rails. You have to expect the bottom of society in greater numbers riding with you.

I question if Greyhound has certain liabilities not protecting the passenger by letting the killer with the knife board the bus unchecked. A simple metal detector used at some high schools would have prevented this madness from being so gory...

[CSK'sMom]

My heart goes out to the victim and his family

2nd degree murder or manslaughter and he'll be out in 10 (or less). The victim and his family get life .... isn't this a great system we have?

Scary isn't it? I surely hope the victim's family doesn't have to go through what we did.

Pleaing insanity doesn't get you off the hook. It gets you a life sentance in a mental hospital with no chance of porole unless a doctor says you've been rehabilitated, which doesn't usually happen.


To begin with there is no such thing in Canada as pleaing insanity. In Canada it's called not criminally responsible. We had to deal with a failed attmpt at it. The accused must have an evaluation done by their choice of doctors. The Crown Attorney then has the Crown's doctors evaluate. We were told that for all intense purposes both sets of doctors need to agree for a successful defense. If they don't agree it becomes one side's experts against the others which rarely happens and rarely results in a NCR conviction. If it's a successful defense the convicted is sent to a locked mental facility with yearly reviews. To be clear they can refuse treatment while in the facility. It's entirely possible to be released within a very few short years unfortunately. In our case we were warned that if the defense was successful he could realistically be out at the 1 to 2 year mark because of the circumstances involving prescription meds.

[KorruptioN]

i guess i wont be taking the greyhound ever again

That's right, you stay inside and learn about the "outside world" that way :rolleyes:

:lol:

[heymikey]

I know it's too early to form conclusions but could it be a racial thing? According to Global, the victim was Aboriginal while the guy who did it is white and bald (white supremacist maybe?).

[v_tofu]

The only positive thing I can see happening out of this is Greyhound requiring security checks of it's passengers before boarding. The guy had a friggin rambo style knife, so he obviously wasn't a 'normal', contributing member of society from this first impression!!!

Prevent the knife from being on the bus in the first place, and maybe the victim would have had a fighting chance, or the other passengers could have helped him.




As I mentioned before, this will do quite little in regards to passenger safety. Might be able to screen a small amount, but I doubt it will help. Also, have you ever been to a bus depot? Its not like buses are in a secure area like an airport. You can literally go onto the street where the bus is parked and get in the bus as long as you have your ticket.

Greyhound buses don't go straight from one city to another. They have Multiple stops. And some of these stops are no more than a Gas station with a wooden greyhound bus sign on it. Metal detectors will just be a waste of money and only increase fares for people already in the lower income bracket.

I took a greyhound bus from Ontario back to MB after treeplanting for the summer. Almost everyone heading back that way was carrying a knife or multi tool.

Pat downs can work, but then whats considered a weapon? a pen/pencil? earrings? toothbrush? If someones going to take another life, they can use almost anything.

[WontonTiger]

No, you are missing the point.

That is your opinion, and it is guaranteed that someone disagrees with you. So, whichever route the coppers chose, someone would disagree... and likely label the coppers as villains.

Well I guess we should never make any decisions, as there will always be *SOMEONE* who disagrees with our position.:rolleyes: I can already gather from posts here, that at least 80% of posters agree with me.

Cry me a river, don't police just have it so hard...:rolleyes:



Obviously it's not like talking to a wall, it worked didn't it? BTW, it's not a crime to be a psycho and it's not something we shoot people for. A shoot would only have been justified if there was an ongoing risk to the safety of others, which there wasn't. Why wouldn't a cop negotiate with someone in this situation? Personally I'm very impressed with the cops' ability to diffuse the situation without any further loss of life.

And if they did shoot him because he had "A BLOODY DECAPITATED HEAD IN HIS HAND", he surely would have been faulted, probably disciplined, likely suspended for some time and probably charged with murder (or some variation of homicide).

A cop can't just shoot someone because they've committed (past tense) a heinous crime. They can only shoot to prevent a criminal act, not to punish for one.

Bottom line is the cops did exactly what they were supposed to do, what they were trained to do, and did it quite well IMO.

Now I can agree with those statements at this time. I would like more information before forming a conclusion, I'm just really surprised that they didn't shoot the perp. I was more or less arguing against the quote that cops have it so hard, and they can never win.

In reality, the cops approach the scene knowing what has just occurred. They arrive on scene and are taunted by a bloody head. The maniac is apparently taunting them with the head. If he still had the knife with him, that's enough reason to diffuse the situation with gunfire. He could have made a move for someone else, then liability really would have kicked in.

I'd love to have more info on how the scene went down after the police arrived.

[UrbanPoet]

RIP to the victim.
my <3 goes out to him and his family/friends.
Terrible way to go out......



CCW would have been handy in a situation like this...
Im waiting for peckerwood to chime in on this.

[Dano76]

I still don't get why anyone could be surprised that the guy was not shot. The reports say he was locked in the bus. What was he gonna to, kill the victim some more?

[AcidBomber]

Wow... That's pretty crazy... poor guy... :(

[15-20_God]

I still don't get why anyone could be surprised that the guy was not shot.

no, the whiners here just like to complain about the police. its always the police using excessive force, or not enough force. never just the right amount of force. they are never there when a crime is being committed but they always happen to be there when you're doing 140km/h in a 50.

[intercollector]

Well I guess we should never make any decisions, as there will always be *SOMEONE* who disagrees with our position.:rolleyes: I can already gather from posts here, that at least 80% of posters agree with me.

Cry me a river, don't police just have it so hard...:rolleyes:



Now I can agree with those statements at this time. I would like more information before forming a conclusion, I'm just really surprised that they didn't shoot the perp. I was more or less arguing against the quote that cops have it so hard, and they can never win.

In reality, the cops approach the scene knowing what has just occurred. They arrive on scene and are taunted by a bloody head. The maniac is apparently taunting them with the head. If he still had the knife with him, that's enough reason to diffuse the situation with gunfire. He could have made a move for someone else, then liability really would have kicked in.

I'd love to have more info on how the scene went down after the police arrived.

From what I've heard the cops definitely did their job correctly. I highly doubt there will be a huge public outcry about the police from this instance, other than the odd moron on a public forum. For the most part, people agree, they are the policy, not judge and jury. There will, however, be a public outcry about bus safety, and we will probably see more security at bus stations, and probably higher costs as well. While I'm not against more security, it is a shame since I believe it to be a very rare occurrence. But as the old saying goes "one bad apple ruins it for the whole barrel."

My heart goes out the family members of the victim, and the people who were on the bus as well (I heard their was some children on the bus).

[WontonTiger]

I still don't get why anyone could be surprised that the guy was not shot. The reports say he was locked in the bus. What was he gonna to, kill the victim some more?

The story I read didn't say anything about the killer hanging out on a locked bus. It only stated that he menacingly threatened the police with a severed head. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't fault someone if they were presented with that type of situation. I don't care that the police didn't shoot him, as we could probably learn more from him with him alive. I was just surprised that the cops didn't cap him when he waved a severed head in their direction.

no, the whiners here just like to complain about the police. its always the police using excessive force, or not enough force. never just the right amount of force. they are never there when a crime is being committed but they always happen to be there when you're doing 140km/h in a 50.

Actually... If you want to get technical, I was complaining about police complaining about complaints. (tongue twister).

Criticism isn't exclusive to law enforcement, so get over yourselves.

[konfusion666]

I still don't get why anyone could be surprised that the guy was not shot. The reports say he was locked in the bus. What was he gonna to, kill the victim some more?

RFD OT has been overrun by the idiots for the past couple of years, it's nothing new for some of us. ;)

[rb]

Big difference between what you'd like to have seen happen to this guy as to what the Police are allowed to do in this situation, I believe Police can only use lethal force if their own lives or members of the public at risk. A mentally disturbed person alone on a bus is not a threat to the Police or those around him.

[Empz]

The scum-bag wasn't arrested ON the bus. He broke a window and tried to run. Still no tazer happy Constable?

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/470342

-E

[chococrazy]

The scum-bag wasn't arrested ON the bus. He broke a window and tried to run. Still no tazer happy Constable?

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/470342

-E

From that article:

RCMP Staff Sgt. Steve Colwell wouldn’t confirm those details but did say a 40-year-old suspect was in RCMP custody and police were planning to interview him.

Duh, you THINK?!?!

[canadien99]

give power back to the people. let us carry our own guns.

Wrong ...

The occurence of these incidents are way too low to justify such drastic violent measures.

That would just open a new breed of whackos that involve for example, the innocence and fantasies of children who end up killing their own siblings ... etc etc

[Empz]

From that article:

Duh, you THINK?!?!

Here I thought they were gonna challenge him to PokeMon on NDS.

-E

[Nikita]

I know it's too early to form conclusions but could it be a racial thing? According to Global, the victim was Aboriginal while the guy who did it is white and bald (white supremacist maybe?).

So let me get this straight, white and bald suddenly equates with white supremacist? Hmm, new one on me...:rolleyes: And quite the stretch! Is it really unreasonable to expect a crime to be discussed on this site without looking for a racial element? Just once?

I still don't get why anyone could be surprised that the guy was not shot. The reports say he was locked in the bus. What was he gonna to, kill the victim some more?

+1

[heymikey]

So let me get this straight, white and bald suddenly equates with white supremacist? Hmm, new one on me...:rolleyes: And quite the stretch! Is it really unreasonable to expect a crime to be discussed on this site without looking for a racial element? Just once?
I said "maybe". Everything is hypothetical at this point. Settle down.

[canadien99]

(CNN) -- As horrified travelers watched, a Greyhound Canada bus passenger repeatedly stabbed and then decapitated a young man who was sitting and sleeping beside him, a witness said Thursday.


Police officers and cars surround the bus near Portage la Prairie, Canada, on Wednesday night.

"There was a bloodcurdling scream. I was just reading my book, and all of a sudden, I heard it," Garnet Caton, who was sitting in front of the two men, said of the Wednesday night incident west of Portage la Prairie in Manitoba.

"It was like something between a dog howling and a baby crying, I guess you could say," Caton said. "I don't think it will leave me for a while."

Passengers exited the bus, and a trucker who stopped provided wrenches and crowbars to several of them so they could keep the suspect on the bus until police came, witnesses told Canadian TV.

The suspect was seized with the help of negotiators, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Sgt. Steve Colwell said.

He said no formal charges had been filed, and he declined to identify either the man in custody or the victim, who were among 34 passengers.

The was no immediate indication of what prompted the attack, Colwell said. He said he didn't know how many times the victim was stabbed. Witnesses described the weapon as a large butcher-type knife.

Caton told The Associated Press that the victim appeared to be about 19 years old and had gotten on the bus in Edmonton.

Colwell praised the "extraordinary" level-headedness and bravery of the bus driver and passengers.

"What you saw and what you experienced would shake the most seasoned police officer. And yet I'm told that each of you acted swiftly, calmly and bravely," Colwell said. "As a result, no one else was injured."

The police received a call reporting the attack at 8:30 p.m. By the time they arrived at the scene, everyone except the knife-wielder and his victim had left the bus, Colwell said. The incident ended about 1:30 a.m.

The bus was traveling along the Trans-Canada Highway from Edmonton, Alberta, to Winnipeg, Manitoba, and was about 45 minutes from its destination when the attack occurred, Greyhound spokeswoman Abby Wambaugh said in Dallas, Texas.

Caton said the victim was sleeping with his head leaning against the window when the attack happened. Caton said he shouted at the other passengers, many of whom also were sleeping, to leave. Watch Caton describe what he saw »

"Everybody got off the bus. Me and a trucker that stopped and the Greyhound driver ran up to the door to maybe see if the guy was still alive or we could help or something like that," Caton said.

"And when we all got up, we saw that the guy was cutting off the guy's head. ... When he saw us, he came back to the front of the bus, told the driver to shut the door. He pressed the button and the door shut, but it didn't shut in time, and the guy was able to get his knife out and take a swipe at us," Caton said.

Caton told the AP that the attacker didn't sit near the victim when he first got on the bus, about an hour before the attack.

"He sat in the front at first; everything was normal," Caton said. "We went to the next stop, and he got off and had a smoke with another young lady there. When he got on the bus again, he came to the back near where I was sitting. He put his bags in the overhead compartment. He didn't say a word to anybody. He seemed totally normal."

Half an hour later, the attack began, Caton told the AP. "There was no rage or anything. He was like a robot, stabbing the guy."

The incident occurred on the first of two Greyhound Canada buses that were traveling together, Wambaugh said. The bus was carrying 37 passengers. As many passengers as possible among those not directly involved in the incident were transferred to the second bus, she said.

Others were taken to a hotel in Brandon, where they were met by Greyhound managers and police, Wambaugh said.

Once they are released, Greyhound will take them by bus to Winnipeg, and "we will do whatever is required to help them, and that includes counseling," she added.


Wambaugh declined to comment further.

"I don't want to compromise the investigation," she said.

[Sepiraph]

Bring back the death penalty and insanity defense should be invalid for murderers. The crazies need to pay their due too.

[bluser]

Hope his pathetic life is miserable from now on and that he burns in hell.

Pure evil.

[Paranoidandroid]

This must be the most twisted thing that ever happened in Canada.

[intercollector]

This must be the most twisted thing that ever happened in Canada.

It's definitely up there, but I think Pickton trumps it.

[GangStarr]

no, the whiners here just like to complain about the police. its always the police using excessive force, or not enough force. never just the right amount of force. they are never there when a crime is being committed but they always happen to be there when you're doing 140km/h in a 50.

+1

as always, well said 15-20

[rock hard]

This must be the most twisted thing that ever happened in Canada.

where have you been????
To list a few below::
homolka and bernardo??
Clifford Olson?

[Paranoidandroid]

where have you been????
To list a few below::
homolka and bernardo??
Clifford Olson?
They don't hold a candle to this, the guy beheading and holding the victim's head around definitely takes the cake IMO.

[Peckerwood]

I do believe that I mentioned some of the potential responses that would come of such an incident in a prior post on a different thread.

Funny how similar they seem
How do you tell the difference between Liberals, Conservatives and Peckerwood?

The answer can be found by posing the following question:

You’re walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a middle eastern looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, praises Allah, raises the knife, and charges. You are carrying a Glock .40, and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?


Liberal’s Answer:

Well, that’s not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Does the Glock have appropriate safety built into it? Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway, and what kind of message does this send to society and to my children? Is it possible he’d be happy with killing just me, and not my family? Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? Should I call 9-1-1? Why is this street so deserted? We need to raise taxes, have a paint-and-weed day and make this a happier, healthier street that would discourage such behavior. This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days and try to come to a consensus.


Conservative’s Answer:

BANG!


Peckerwood's Answer:

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!…click…(sounds of reloading).

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!…click

:)

[GangStarr]

Bring back the death penalty and insanity defense should be invalid for murderers. The crazies need to pay their due too.


I said it once and I will say it again. Be insane doesn't give one a get out of jail free card. This isn't monopoly. They are sent to a secure mental hospital where they are heavily medicated and have no release date unless a doctor deems them fit to re enter society. Which doesn't happen.

In fact its FAR worse then life in prison, since "life" in prison is 20 years.

[perplexed_one]

I love it how police will "negotiate" with sick-fcuks like this, while regular citizens get tasered to death because they are not 'cooperating'.

Why didn't anyone put a bullet or two in his head or a hail of bullets for that matter?

Hmmm lets see, a man holding a big @ss knife and a freshly decapitated human head vs someone like "Sean Bell" ... guess who gets shot?

Stuff like this pisses me off to no end. I'm sure the family of the victim wouldn't mind if the man that chopped off their son's head was shot in the face.

-E

+1, everyone should appreciate the irony here.

The police are wrong no matter what they do.

If they rush in and he ends up dead, you have people crying about how they didnt attempt to defuse the situation. Or if they shoot him, people will ask why they didnt use the taser, if they taser him, they'll ask why didnt they ninja-karate kick the knife out of his hand then gang tackle him.

If they dont rush in, people are outraged that they didnt immediately shoot down this "crazy man". The public doesnt know what they want, and react emotionally. They percieve this man as deserving of being killed, and expect police to meter out that punishment. Which is not their job. There job is to bring him before a court. They've established everyone is off the bus except the man, the vicitim is clearly dead as his head is sitting there.

So at that point he isnt presenting a threat of death or grievous bodily harm while he's trapped on the bus. If he comes off that bus at the police/crowd, then it's time for some deadly force. If you can get him to surrender, you take him into custody.

Looks to me like this guy was stalking the sleeping victim. I have my doubts that this was a totally random act of violence.

Either way, he DOES deserve to rot.

no, the whiners here just like to complain about the police. its always the police using excessive force, or not enough force. never just the right amount of force.

except that this scumbag DID kill someone, attacked (but didn't injure) others, and flaunted his victim's severed head. This guy warrants a shot to the head.

conversely, the cops then go all out on people who committed a non-lethal crime.

do you see the disconnect here?

[BuildBuyBreed]

It's definitely up there, but I think Pickton trumps it.

Bernardo too, what he did to those girls, and don't forget about that couple who chopped up their little girl and threw her remains in a garbage bag near Humber Park.

I still don't get why anyone could be surprised that the guy was not shot. The reports say he was locked in the bus. What was he gonna to, kill the victim some more?

Actually, he kinda did, after decapitating the victim and taunting/dropping his head, he went back to carve up the body even more.

In a situation like this, how many of us would actually be opposed to the cops filling him up with bullets? Hell, I'm sure a majority of the public would've approved too.

Examples... the hostage taking at Union Station, sniper takes out the guy in the head, not much public backlash there... or when the cop drove his cruiser into that knife-wielding punk wedging him into a bike pole, the public actually appraised the police for all of that.

This guy literally did a Jack The Ripper on a sleeping person, then goes on to carry the head, throw it around while everyone is watching, and go back to the body to carve it up some more. Does he really deserve to live? Or even deserve a fair trial? Bah to that! Shoot the bastard a million times!

[chuckp]

If you guys want to hear the RCMP audio, click below:

**Warning - Graphic**

http://members.shaw.ca/bdear/audio/bus-incident.mp3

Apparently the man was cutting off pieces and eating the victim.

[Peckerwood]

How many other people were on the bus? Where was the driver?

If any of the bystanders/passengers or perhaps the driver, had a CCW pistol then this situation may have taken a turn for the better.

One smoking gun + One dead psycho killer = :)

In fact I would go so far as to say we should ban knives...there is no way he could have stabbed and cut off that guy's head using a Beretta 92FS

[YnD]

So let me get this straight, white and bald suddenly equates with white supremacist? Hmm, new one on me...:rolleyes: And quite the stretch! Is it really unreasonable to expect a crime to be discussed on this site without looking for a racial element? Just once?



+1

Well we know when a shooting occurs what the suspect usually equates to.

[BuildBuyBreed]

If you guys want to hear the RCMP audio, click below:

**Warning - Graphic**

http://members.shaw.ca/bdear/audio/bus-incident.mp3

Apparently the man was cutting off pieces and eating the victim.

Yep... that guy deserved to get shot up.

Asian male? Then again, it's kinda hard for non-Asians to distinguish Asians from similar looking races.

[LonesomeDove]

where have you been????
To list a few below::
homolka and bernardo??
Clifford Olson?

What those guys did was in private with no one watching. This guy killed and decapitated a guy in front of witnesses. A full bus of people witnessed the murder annd the guy waved the head in front of everyone.

So it is twisted in comparison with those nuts.

[eightyeight]

The only reason I'm opposed to some cops unloading a clip into this psychopath is because I'm sure guys in prison named 'Tiny' would love to have some private time with him - night after night after night.

That's probably as close to torture as this guy could get, no? Far better than the easy, quick way out.

[WontonTiger]

Bernardo too, what he did to those girls, and don't forget about that couple who chopped up their little girl and threw her remains in a garbage bag near Humber Park.



Actually, he kinda did, after decapitating the victim and taunting/dropping his head, he went back to carve up the body even more.

In a situation like this, how many of us would actually be opposed to the cops filling him up with bullets? Hell, I'm sure a majority of the public would've approved too.

Examples... the hostage taking at Union Station, sniper takes out the guy in the head, not much public backlash there... or when the cop drove his cruiser into that knife-wielding punk wedging him into a bike pole, the public actually appraised the police for all of that.

This guy literally did a Jack The Ripper on a sleeping person, then goes on to carry the head, throw it around while everyone is watching, and go back to the body to carve it up some more. Does he really deserve to live? Or even deserve a fair trial? Bah to that! Shoot the bastard a million times!

Some people need to feel superior to others. They do this by marginalizing your opinion, and then trying to say that you're an idiot. Apparently me thinking that the police might shoot this guy was totally off base, and only a stupid, trolling cop hater could think of something like that.

Forum's like these wouldn't be near as popular without the complaints of the general public.

On a side note, this was one horrific story. I can't think of anything as mindlessly insane as this. What would motivate one to snap like this, and then continue with the savage mutilation of the body.

It also begs to question why no one hinted at action. I can't blame people for not reacting, however you'd think that a crazy like that would have all his attention on mutilating/stabbing the victim. It would be a perfect time to knock the guy out, or slam something sharp into him. Anyway, that's a whole other thread...

[heymikey]

How do you tell the difference between Liberals, Conservatives and Peckerwood?

The answer can be found by posing the following question:

You’re walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a middle eastern looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, praises Allah, raises the knife, and charges. You are carrying a Glock .40, and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?


Liberal’s Answer:

Well, that’s not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Does the Glock have appropriate safety built into it? Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway, and what kind of message does this send to society and to my children? Is it possible he’d be happy with killing just me, and not my family? Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? Should I call 9-1-1? Why is this street so deserted? We need to raise taxes, have a paint-and-weed day and make this a happier, healthier street that would discourage such behavior. This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days and try to come to a consensus.


Conservative’s Answer:

BANG!

So, are you trying to say that conservative thought is mostly governed by raw, animalistic impulses, while liberal thought is mostly based on philosophical, more "evolved" way of thinking?

It's good you pointed that out.

Oh, and to answer your question, if a fanatical middle-eastern man comes charging my way with a knife, I'd ask my wife to strip down real quick. If he really was a fanatical Muslim, he'd run away from the sight of seeing a naked woman. :cheesygri

[WontonTiger]

So, are you trying to say that conservative thought is mostly governed by raw, animalistic impulses, while liberal thought is mostly based on philosophical, more "evolved" way of thinking?

It's good you pointed that out.



I think it demonstrates a different point. Both examples are extremes. If you compromise, and think logically/critically, then you'll have the best of both worlds, and the worst of neither.

[NiMSo]

OMG...

I really don't have any words left. This is horrific...

[Thi3d_Wish]

If you guys want to hear the RCMP audio, click below:

**Warning - Graphic**

http://members.shaw.ca/bdear/audio/bus-incident.mp3

Apparently the man was cutting off pieces and eating the victim.

Oh wow! First he beheads a guy on the bus. Proceeds to taunts police with the head. Observed to be "defiling the body", "hacking up the body", "hacking off pieces and eating it". Finally breaks a window and tries to escape.

He's definitely less of a threat than a uncooperative citizen, who needs to be tazered 19 times! :rolleyes:

Shoot the b@stard!

[Peckerwood]

So, are you trying to say that conservative thought is mostly governed by raw, animalistic impulses, while liberal thought is mostly based on philosophical, more "evolved" way of thinking?

It's good you pointed that out.
Actually the main point to be made was that of the right choice given the situation. The attacker's reasoning is not a justification for unsolicitedly knifing someone...hence the proper and most appropriate response that seeks to avoid hesitation that could strip valuable seconds is of course, BANG.

Simple and to the point
Oh, and to answer your question, if a fanatical middle-eastern man comes charging my way with a knife, I'd ask my wife to strip down real quick. If he really was a fanatical Muslim, he'd run away from the sight of seeing a naked woman. :cheesygri
I lol'd :)

[dairymandip]

why didn't anyone help though?

they said dude got stabbed like 50 times,i guess nowadays eh it's not me turns the other way.

[Asad_A203]

The only reason I'm opposed to some cops unloading a clip into this psychopath is because I'm sure guys in prison named 'Tiny' would love to have some private time with him - night after night after night.

That's probably as close to torture as this guy could get, no? Far better than the easy, quick way out.

This guy will never see the general population of a prision. He will be in a psychiatric ward and given how "secure" those things are I would not be suprised if we see a notice down the road of this guy escaping from there or released back into society.

[Asad_A203]

why didn't anyone help though?

they said dude got stabbed like 50 times,i guess nowadays eh it's not me turns the other way.

A guy has a huge butcher knife; you are armed with nothing and he has already stabbed the guy 25 times. What point is there trying to save his life when the victim is probably dead by now and you will just be next? People like to say they would do something different in this situation but I gurantee most would do exactly the same thing those people did. Best too; we might have seen more victims if someone tried to intervene.

[purple_rabbit]

This is the most WTF incident I have read this month...

[WontonTiger]

A guy has a huge butcher knife; you are armed with nothing and he has already stabbed the guy 25 times. What point is there trying to save his life when the victim is probably dead by now and you will just be next? People like to say they would do something different in this situation but I gurantee most would do exactly the same thing those people did. Best too; we might have seen more victims if someone tried to intervene.

I understand your point, however if people were able to handle the shock of the situation, you might be able to work with others to incapacitate the crazy man. If this guy had a knife, it's possible one of the people on board had one as well. The element of surprise can often define the whole encounter. There are so many ifs in play here.

Best too; we might have seen more victims if someone tried to intervene.

You could just as easily say that if people reacted quickly, someone may have been saved. More ifs that enter into the equation.

I feel for the victims family. As far as I can tell, the maniac mutilated the body without conscience. I really hope that he didn't eat pieces of the guys body, as that would just ice the cake on the whole sanity aspect.

[M_Matt]

Video & comments by passenger (http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?title=1703403307)

[Uncle Cool]

One reason for not killing the killer (immediately) is because it would be interesting to know WHY he did it.

Maybe the guy was snoring?

Anyway, as I said before, I don't trust anyone.

I would never fall asleep on a train, bus, streetcar, subway, plane, rollercoaster, the toilet, anywhere.

[chuckp]

Anyway, as I said before, I don't trust anyone.

I would never fall asleep on a train, bus, streetcar, subway, plane, rollercoaster, the toilet, anywhere.

Exactly, sleep is the most vulnerable state for any living thing. Never do it unless you know your secure and safe.

[NiMSo]

So far only 1 person has commented on the attacker being an Asian male... strange for RFD!

(Based on report from police radio audio clip posted earlier in this thread).

[Justin]

Great, now that this is on CNN everyone in the United States thinks we are a bunch of crazies up here in Canada.

[Paranoidandroid]

why didn't anyone help though?

they said dude got stabbed like 50 times,i guess nowadays eh it's not me turns the other way.
Bystander effect. Simply put, would YOU have been the one to grab the knife out of the guy's hand?

So far only 1 person has commented on the attacker being an Asian male... strange for RFD!
Wow, didn't catch that. I'm surprised news sites aren't spamming this revelation.

EDIT: Sites are reporting the killer to be Aboriginal.

[kerorogunso]

Maybe it's easy for me who was not on the scene to say this... but there were a few of big guys on the bus. Shouldn't they all jump to the maniac and stop the crime? I mean the victim should have started screaming after five or six stabs. If five, six people threw onto the maniac right away, the victim could be saved even if the crazy guy had a butcher knife. :cry: Of course I am not saying other passengers have the responsibility to do so. They were all shocked and were calm enough to escape and no one else got hurt, which was a good news from this tragedy already. It was very difficult for most of us to make a different in that situation.

[Ziggy007]

Maybe it's easy for me who was not on the scene to say this... but there were a few of big guys on the bus. Shouldn't they all jump to the maniac and stop the crime? I mean the victim should have started screaming after five or six stabs. If five, six people threw onto the maniac right away, the victim could be saved even if the crazy guy had a butcher knife. :cry: Of course I am not saying other passengers have the responsibility to do so. They were all shocked and were calm enough to escape. It was very difficult for most of us to make a different in that situation.

I am a big guy, and I would like to think I would have rushed to help out too.

Then again I am sure it is a different thing when you are watching half Rambo half Hannibal Lecter happening in front of you.

[kerorogunso]

Bystander effect. Simply put, would YOU have been the one to grab the knife out of the guy's hand?


I believe people are brave. Sometimes they just need to be "initiated" or motivated, by an exceptional brave one who throws himself into the danger first. Others will follow.

But no, I am not suggesting people should fight back. It would be the best case if you are trained and have a couple trustworthy friends there to support you. Otherwise, run.

BTW, we got more and more psychos in our society. You can't even relax even on a bus. Crazy.

[Peckerwood]

I only weigh 200 lbs...and I would have been in there like a dirty shirt.

[Digo]

I'm not sure I want to go fight a dude wielding one of these in the middle of the night on a greyhound bus with all those seats around me:

http://www.northlandgifts.com/images/items/UCRAMBO.jpg


I'm not sure I would even go near someone wielding one of these anywhere actually.

[canabiz]

Exactly, sleep is the most vulnerable state for any living thing. Never do it unless you know your secure and safe.

When you are on a trans-atlantic flight or go through the Prairies in the middle of the night, it's easy to fall asleep.

It's not the victim's fault that he fell asleep.

[fenrus]

I understand your point, however if people were able to handle the shock of the situation, you might be able to work with others to incapacitate the crazy man. If this guy had a knife, it's possible one of the people on board had one as well. The element of surprise can often define the whole encounter. There are so many ifs in play here.

Work together and surprise him? You think you're Solid Snake or something? Surprise doesn't work well after all the screaming and mayhem has already occurred. Besides, have you been in a bus before? the aisle are so narrow that a fat guy can't walk down without being obstructed. Can't expect to do some fancy disarming kick when all the knifer has to do is perform a dashing jousting motion to stab you.

[Roseburger]

Who knows if the guy wearing the headphones turned up the volume and the killer didn't like it, and they had some sort of arguement. But still.. this is still crazy.

[BuildBuyBreed]

High likelihood killer has a mental illness... my guess would be is that he was suffering from insomnia at the time and the low-volume yet very noticable music beats coming from his seatmate's earphones set him off.

Possible reasons why no one helped:

1. Scared $#!+less... unless you're super-desensitized or seen a mutilated human body before, you don't wanna go near it
2. Their lives weren't really in immediate danger nor was the entire bus, killer was continuously focusing on his seatmate, so flight was a better choice rather than fight (on the same token, saving your own @$$ always comes first)
3. Very tight quarters, a knife is a close-combat weapon, and in a bus, you WILL get seriously injured no matter how hard you try to avoid it
4. Unpredictability, killer was going all crazy, not stopping for a breath, you have no idea what he'd do if he saw you, especially if he saw you coming
5. No weapons... against a Rambo knife too!
6. Unfortunately victim was already dead, nothing you can do for him, must focus on yourself and the people who are still alive

I am a big guy, and I would like to think I would have rushed to help out too. Then again I am sure it is a different thing when you are watching half Rambo half Hannibal Lecter happening in front of you.

I only weigh 200 lbs...and I would have been in there like a dirty shirt.

why didn't anyone help though?

I understand your point, however if people were able to handle the shock of the situation, you might be able to work with others to incapacitate the crazy man.

[Roseburger]

Exactly, sleep is the most vulnerable state for any living thing. Never do it unless you know your secure and safe.

It's not like you can't get knifed if your awake. You'll be looking out the window in the TTC and a guy comes and knifes you the chest.... pretty much your done from there. :D

[abu_sme]

Why is it that the worst people seem to be in small places?

Mayerthorpe, Port Coquitlam etc.

[wizuriel]

this is just wow :(

makes one seriously wish they put security on grey hound stations and add metal detectors or something. Though can imagine all the trouble thaty would cause some the bus doesn't just stop at a station

[Peckerwood]

High likelihood killer has a mental illness... my guess would be is that he was suffering from insomnia at the time and the low-volume yet very noticable music beats coming from his seatmate's earphones set him off.
He was a psychopath...that was what set him off ;)

Possible reasons why no one helped:

1. Scared $#!+lessUnderstandable... unless you're super-desensitized or seen a mutilated human body before, you don't wanna go near itbeen there, seen that
2. Their lives weren't really in immediate danger nor was the entire bus, killer was continuously focusing on his seatmate, so flight was a better choice rather than fight (on the same token, saving your own @$$ always comes first)The seatmate's life was clearly in danger and the rest of the passangers if nobody does anything...hence this guy needed to be put down...that is why I would be in like a dirty shirt
3. Very tight quarters, a knife is a close-combat weapon, and in a bus, you WILL get seriously injured no matter how hard you try to avoid itclose quarters can also work against him too cause he can't run from me that easily...like me he would have to use his surroundings to ruin my attacks
4. Unpredictability, killer was going all crazy, not stopping for a breath, you have no idea what he'd do if he saw you, especially if he saw you comingI trust that the attacker will do precisely, exactly, completely, and totally what he will do(translation, he doesn't know what I am going to do either...just that I am going to do it...fear works both ways)
5. No weapons... against a Rambo knife too!Greater knife...greater leverage...therefore more to work with for me. Smaller knives are harder to remove than bigger ones
6. Unfortunately victim was already dead, nothing you can do for him, must focus on yourself and the people who are still aliveWhich is why i would attack the guy...there are others still alive and I would like to see it remain that way. My entry into the fray would also give others a clear chance to get away
:)

[Joanie]

when my mom told me about this story this morning, i thought she was flipping. i mean, i hv seen loads of tv (csi / movies) etc ... but this story is just crazy. who goes around decapitating / mutilating / eating a stranger in public with no emotion? this goes beyond comprehension - at least in most of the other cases (not that it justifies anything), we try to find logic in it (i.e. he didn't like prostitutes / he liked to rape girls / whatever stupid shiet reason). this on the other hand, definitely goes under the WTH category. it is disturbing that people like that are present and that we are so vulnerable and susceptible to such maniacs under normal routines.

i hope that the victim's family remains strong and that our society does all that it can to see justice is served. at any rate, i know the murderer will face his punishment (being spiritual here) eventually ...

and no, i don't support the death penalty or shooting of anyone just for emotional vengence. just b/c a police officer wrongly tasered another person doesn't mean it is right to taser this murdererer. we should not hv tasers used nilly willy. the issue in that case is when to use the taser CORRECTLY ... and it doesn't seem to me that tasering this guy would hv benefited anyone. he did get reprimanded in the end didn't he? and none of the officers or anyone else got injured right? so tell me, why would shooting or tasering help the end of this situation when obviously the police did a good job getting a hold of him?

[v_tofu]

Here's the interview of the guy who was sitting in front of the victim:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c2e_1217531771


This is waaaaay to close to home. Thats the hotel off No. 1 highway. I go fishing at the river right behind there all the time.

[iempwnage]

Capital punishment must come to Canada or this son of a ***** is going to be back on the streets in under 10 years.

There should be a trust fund or something for the victims family...

[Peckerwood]

Capital punishment must come to Canada or this son of a ***** is going to be back on the streets in under 10 years.

There should be a trust fund or something for the victims family...
Psychos like that won't ever get released...permanent lockup due to their inability to rehabilitate

[1yellowdog]

One reason for not killing the killer (immediately) is because it would be interesting to know WHY he did it.

Maybe the guy was snoring?

Anyway, as I said before, I don't trust anyone.

I would never fall asleep on a train, bus, streetcar, subway, plane, rollercoaster, the toilet, anywhere.

We're never going to know why he really did it. His defense lawyer will cook up some catchy excuse for all the bleeding heart liberals out there to feel more sorry for the killer than for the victim. Can you imagine the mother of the victim right now, she must be a basket case hearing of how her son died.

[chrza]

Capital punishment must come to Canada or this son of a ***** is going to be back on the streets in under 10 years.

There should be a trust fund or something for the victims family...

We already know capital punishment does sh*t all as a deterant to crime. All it does is cost more money. So no point in going there.

Also, if all a criminal is getting is 10 years, then they probably wouldn't have gotten the death penalty had it existed.

[chrza]

We're never going to know why he really did it. His defense lawyer will cook up some catchy excuse for all the bleeding heart liberals out there to feel more sorry for the killer than for the victim. Can you imagine the mother of the victim right now, she must be a basket case hearing of how her son died.

Just because one would want to understand the killer's motives doesn't mean they sympathize with them. I can't imagine anyone feeling more sorry for this killer than the victim, or really feeling sorry at all for the killer. Not sure what kind of right wing fantasy world you're living in.

[Peckerwood]

Motives?

He was probably craving ice cream...and found is chair to be too comfortable.

Since when would a psycho's motivations in any way validate his murderous actions? Seriously, they wouldn't lend any serious insight to any other's actions...like Dahmer who did it because he liked them...and was apparently hungry.

[Lava]

We already know capital punishment does sh*t all as a deterant to crime. All it does is cost more money. So no point in going there

How does capital punishment cost more money? Having to pay for health care, and food, and everything in prison would cost way more than a needle to the arm or the electric chair.

Personally, i don't know whether or not he deserves the death penalty(if he could get it), we don't know the full side of the story, the person obviously has something wrong with his brain.

[chrza]

Motives?

He was probably craving ice cream...and found is chair to be too comfortable.

Since when would a psycho's motivations in any way validate his murderous actions? Seriously, they wouldn't lend any serious insight to any other's actions...like Dahmer who did it because he liked them...and was apparently hungry.

I don't recall saying the movites would validate anything. No point in pretending like I did.

How does capital punishment cost more money? Having to pay for health care, and food, and everything in prison would cost way more than a needle to the arm or the electric chair.

Factor in a number of costly appeals as well as the health, food and everything he would get anyways being a lifer since inmates who are death row end up being on death row for a looooooooong time before they're actually executed.

Personally, i don't know whether or not he deserves the death penalty(if he could get it), we don't know the full side of the story, the person obviously has something wrong with his brain.

Clearly. And I seriously doubt any sort of punishment would've deterred this killer. He obviously didn't care about getting caught.

[Ebola]

WOnton,

I understand your disagreement with me saying the police can never win in a court of public opinion.

My point is they can very rarely win in public opinion if they are doing their jobs right, as the public has double standards.

Situation 1:

Man with knife causing disturbance. While being loud and belligerent, man has not harmed anyone, and is contained. Police taser man, take him into custody.

Police are criticized for not attempting other methods to deal with situation, tasering instead of "talking him down" or using pepper spray or gang tackling him, or whatever.

If man dies, public is rightly outraged, calling for the heads of police officers and massive change so they cant use lethal force except when deadly threat to themselves or the public is present.


Situation 2:

Current Situation.

Man kills another on bus with knife, everyone on bus gets off, locks man in bus. Man has just committed a horrifying crime.

Police secure scene, contain man on bus. Man presents no immediate threat to police or the public, because he is contained on the bus.

Police try to "talk him down", and manage to take him into custody (at gunpoint I imagine) with minimal force.

Police are then told by the public they would have supported a "double tap" to the back of this guys head, or blowing him away, etc etc.

Now wait a minute, before a guy with a knife who , while he does present a threat, isnt immediately threatening anyone is tasered and taken into custody, all hell breaks loose and its open season on police.

Now, a guy with a knife who again isnt presenting an immediate threat to the public (obviously he was a threat, he killed someone, but he cant kill anyone in his current situation), is taken into police custody with minimal force and people are saying its regrettable that lethal force wasnt used immediately?

It's an understandable feeling, the rage and disgust when you read this story. That doesnt matter when you are a PC dealing with this situation. A major crime has just occured, your sole job is to protect the public and yourself. So, the public and yourself are safe while hes on the bus. That means now, he needs to be arrested so he can stand trial for his (alleged) crime. Just like knife man in situation #1, you look at him and what he is doing then and there, and deal with that, not what he may or may not have done before. You don't get to decide to shoot him just because he has done something awful, thats not the way our legal system works.

That's your emotions overriding the legal , rational obligations that have to be met in our society by law enforcement, and the legal system, and the police did exactly what they are supposed to do, what they were trained to do, and I applaud the work they did in this situation, it was excellent.

[blue mountain raider]

what is also disturbing is that the bus must have had 20 - 30 passengers and no one tried to restrain the attacker. 20 people vs 1 guy with a knife.

[AcidBomber]

what is also disturbing is that the bus must have had 20 - 30 passengers and no one tried to restrain the attacker. 20 people vs 1 guy with a knife.

Try fitting 2 person in the aisle side by side...
I thought the best candidate to do something was that guy sitting directly in front of the attacker & victim, if he did something i am sure others would have helped... But then again, put yourself into that situation first... :|

[glacier76]

what is also disturbing is that the bus must have had 20 - 30 passengers and no one tried to restrain the attacker. 20 people vs 1 guy with a knife.

Says who? There are many reports stating that several passengers and the bus drivers attempted to stop the guy. But they first ushered the passengers out. Sounds sensible enough to me.

[blue mountain raider]

Says who? There are many reports stating that several passengers and the bus drivers attempted to stop the guy. But they first ushered the passengers out. Sounds sensible enough to me.

i mean they were all on a bus so everyone was in close proximity so you'd think a few people would have tried to stop the guy after... lets say... the 5th stab?

[chrza]

i mean they were all on a bus so everyone was in close proximity so you'd think a few people would have tried to stop the guy after... lets say... the 5th stab?

Would you volunteer to be first in line against a psycho with a hunting knife? It's easy to say in retrospect, but in all honestly I don't know if i'd be brave enough. One wrong move and you could be well on your way to bleeding to death.

[Paranoidandroid]

i mean they were all on a bus so everyone was in close proximity so you'd think a few people would have tried to stop the guy after... lets say... the 5th stab?
Please tell us how you would've saved the day, you make it sound so easy to become a hero.

Keep in mind, there were children on that bus. Would you want to compromise their safety? And how are you so sure the average person could react that fast? I'm sure most people wouldn't know what to do given that situation, they were obviously in shock. It's not a matter of wanting to help or not, it's just that there are so many factors to take into consideration.

[gordholio]

The man was probably dead before anyone could react and the murderer kept stabbing. I think things were done properly under the circumstances.

[gosamburu]

You cant rush someone on a greyhound it would be a stabbing line up ... unlike them people on United 93 who had 2 wide ales


Also note that if the attackers succeeded in what they were trying to do on United 093 (bring down the plane), everyone's a goner. So everyone else on board had nothing to lose trying to stop it. Which isnt really the case here

[baz5]

So far only 1 person has commented on the attacker being an Asian male... strange for RFD!

I guessed native.

[baz5]

Pretty hilarious all the people that said they would have played hero.
I bet when you see the knife going into another human being's neck five times, and blood squirting everywhere, the idea of being a hero wouldn't look so good anymore.

[gretzky99]

So far only 1 person has commented on the attacker being an Asian male... strange for RFD!

this thread is useless to discussion or comment on without us first knowing what the race/ethniticity of the accused and victim is. :rolleyes:

[BlackCrowe13]

Wow, I am curious to see what the motive will end up being...

Anyone ever consider a sequel... Australia II? We should send all the hard criminals and killers to an island and leave them to fend for themselves just like they did long ago in Autralia. They will surely dispose of eachother and we dont need to deal with the cost to jail them and feed them for the rest of their lives. It also keeps us regular folk from having to making decisions that result is death (death penalty, life in prison). IMO i think that no human should make the decision to end another persons life... this just makes us the same barbaric creature they are. We take pleasure in someone elses pain (even a criminal) and IMO that is never right. Revenge is never a good thing!

We as responsible law abiding citizens created this society and infrastructure and it is a privilage to be a part of it, not a right! If someone is not able to function as a contributing part off our society, I think that we should have the right to remove them from our "world" and let them make their own "world"... from scratch. Perhaps after a few generations of hard times these people will become a contributing nation to the rest of the world... lol, look at Australia... they turned out pretty good!

Now boarding Murders, Pedophiles, and Gangsta's... next stop, Criminisland!
Cheers.

[blue mountain raider]

Pretty hilarious all the people that said they would have played hero.
I bet when you see the knife going into another human being's neck five times, and blood squirting everywhere, the idea of being a hero wouldn't look so good anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

[sfu_lifer]

I was just reading reports that said the victim was 5'4" 130lbs and that the attacker was "3x his size" and was easily able to break a window and jump out which is likely an exaggeration but for those thinking hero, if you've got a huge monster with probably a huge hunting knife stabbing someone repeatedly, for me I'm not sure how I'd react. As people mentioned, the greyhound aisles are very tight and you pretty much have to walk sideways to get about.
I think the passengers did well to evacuate everyone out sadly at the expense of the victim but I'm not sure what could've been done to save him :(

[gordholio]

I guessed native.

He was a person. It doesn't make any difference to me what colour or heritage the murderer was. It was a terrible incident.

[Shaner]

Pretty hilarious all the people that said they would have played hero.
I bet when you see the knife going into another human being's neck five times, and blood squirting everywhere, the idea of being a hero wouldn't look so good anymore.

I gotta agree with you. I get paid to break up physical altercations among violent males, including knife fights. I've personally jumped into numerous knife fights.

Despite that, if I saw what these passengers all saw, it would be a difficult to jump in and try and stop him. I believe that I would, if for no other reason than I have experience in doing so and I know that I don't freeze up in such situations, but it's impossible to know for sure until the time comes. Risking your life for a complete stranger is very difficult to do.

[Peckerwood]

Murder victim named by friends as Tim McLean

His facebook says he is 22yrs old from Winnipeg

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=108390479

[perplexed_one]

RIP

such a young and promising life cut short.

If the government or any of the bus companies decide to put it some system to detect weapons I think those handheld scanners are the better - cheaper and easily transported - than those stationary scanner doors.

but I don't see that happening because this is a one in a million freak incident, I think the government will be looking long and hard at its mental health systems and keeping these people off the streets and monitored.

[LonesomeDove]

i mean they were all on a bus so everyone was in close proximity so you'd think a few people would have tried to stop the guy after... lets say... the 5th stab?

The witnesses on the bus said the attacker was a very big man, over 6 feet tall. How would you like to subdue a very big man with a very big knife?

Also, while the passengers may be in close proximity, not all were strong young men. There was an elderly woman, another woman with a young child.

And the event happened very fast at night where some people may be dozing off. The victim was probably dead before anyone could react.

It is easy to criticize others in the bus when you were not there yourself.

[abu_sme]

I think the bus driver is a bit of a hero here. Everyone got off the bus, and he trapped the attacker for arrest. Think of it this way: he only got one.

This doesn't diminish the hardship the family of the victim is feeling, but this guy could've killed more people on the bus, or worse, had gotten away and the threat of him doing it again could've lingered.

[thelefteyeguy]

...honestly...unless you know what you're doing...stay away from a guy that's holding a knife...especially in very very close quarters

[Ebola]

...honestly...unless you know what you're doing...stay away from a guy that's holding a knife...especially in very very close quarters

Even if you do know what you are doing, typically you have one chance, particularily if the person doesnt see you coming, after that, its going to get messy. Noone strolls out of a knife fight not stabbed/cut.

[canabiz]

RCMP has charged 40 year-old Vincent Li from Edmonton with 2nd-degree murder

From the last name, it sounds like a Chinese national.

[mgronqui]

Must have been a troubled soul.

[gmark2000]

RCMP has charged 40 year-old Vincent Li from Edmonton with 2nd-degree murder

From the last name, it sounds like a Chinese national.

Vincent Weiguang Li, 40, of Edmonton, AB - CNN

[burnt_toast]

RCMP has charged 40 year-old Vincent Li from Edmonton with 2nd-degree murder

From the last name, it sounds like a Chinese national.

But does that really matter? The person is a murderer...

[WontonTiger]

Work together and surprise him? You think you're Solid Snake or something? Surprise doesn't work well after all the screaming and mayhem has already occurred. Besides, have you been in a bus before? the aisle are so narrow that a fat guy can't walk down without being obstructed. Can't expect to do some fancy disarming kick when all the knifer has to do is perform a dashing jousting motion to stab you.

Why do people always sensationalize common sense? Why is everyone so afraid these days? I know that if that were me being stabbed, I would hope someone would help me. Being a man of conscience, I would DO MY BEST to get something together. As I said earlier, there are many ifs, however of all the reports I've heard say that no one, not one soul tried to help the victim.

There isn't always going to be someone there to save you. Sometimes you really need to take things into your own hands. If he wasn't at the back of the bus (I'm not sure where they were positioned), then people would have had to RUN BY THE VICTIM to leave the bus. If that's the case, then it's shameful.

I hope you never find yourself in the same situation, because if everyone had your mindset, you'd be dead.

Perennial victims like yourself are easy to spot. Rather than think about things, you sensationalize the comment with Can't expect to do some fancy disarming kick when all the knifer has to do is perform a dashing jousting motion to stab you. If the guy is dismembering a body, he most likely isn't focusing on everyone on the bus. Who says you have to do a jump kick. If you have any basic hand-to-hand training, you could at least do your best. I don't know if I could deal with the guilt of inaction.

Our society won't last the next hundred years. We're just pockets of fear mongers and crazies. Keep marginalizing people because you're afraid.

WOnton,

It's an understandable feeling, the rage and disgust when you read this story. That doesnt matter when you are a PC dealing with this situation. A major crime has just occured, your sole job is to protect the public and yourself. So, the public and yourself are safe while hes on the bus. That means now, he needs to be arrested so he can stand trial for his (alleged) crime. Just like knife man in situation #1, you look at him and what he is doing then and there, and deal with that, not what he may or may not have done before. You don't get to decide to shoot him just because he has done something awful, thats not the way our legal system works.

That's your emotions overriding the legal , rational obligations that have to be met in our society by law enforcement, and the legal system, and the police did exactly what they are supposed to do, what they were trained to do, and I applaud the work they did in this situation, it was excellent.

Well said. This *should* also keep the general public from getting killed by the police.

[mgronqui]

Why do people always sensationalize common sense? Why is everyone so afraid these days? I know that if that were me being stabbed, I would hope someone would help me. Being a man of conscience, I would DO MY BEST to get something together. As I said earlier, there are many ifs, however of all the reports I've heard say that no one, not one soul tried to help the victim.

There isn't always going to be someone there to save you. Sometimes you really need to take things into your own hands. If he wasn't at the back of the bus (I'm not sure where they were positioned), then people would have had to RUN BY THE VICTIM to leave the bus. If that's the case, then it's shameful.

I hope you never find yourself in the same situation, because if everyone had your mindset, you'd be dead.

Perennial victims like yourself are easy to spot. Rather than think about things, you sensationalize the comment with . If the guy is dismembering a body, he most likely isn't focusing on everyone on the bus. Who says you have to do a jump kick. If you have any basic hand-to-hand training, you could at least do your best. I don't know if I could deal with the guilt of inaction.

Our society won't last the next hundred years. We're just pockets of fear mongers and crazies. Keep marginalizing people because you're afraid.

Yup everyone is out for themselves. Sadly, or maybe not so sadly, I adopted the mentality. Gotta do what I gotta do to survive.

[winner2000]

Why do people always sensationalize common sense? Why is everyone so afraid these days? I know that if that were me being stabbed, I would hope someone would help me. Being a man of conscience, I would DO MY BEST to get something together. As I said earlier, there are many ifs, however of all the reports I've heard say that no one, not one soul tried to help the victim.

There isn't always going to be someone there to save you. Sometimes you really need to take things into your own hands. If he wasn't at the back of the bus (I'm not sure where they were positioned), then people would have had to RUN BY THE VICTIM to leave the bus. If that's the case, then it's shameful.

I hope you never find yourself in the same situation, because if everyone had your mindset, you'd be dead.

Perennial victims like yourself are easy to spot. Rather than think about things, you sensationalize the comment with . If the guy is dismembering a body, he most likely isn't focusing on everyone on the bus. Who says you have to do a jump kick. If you have any basic hand-to-hand training, you could at least do your best. I don't know if I could deal with the guilt of inaction.

Our society won't last the next hundred years. We're just pockets of fear mongers and crazies. Keep marginalizing people because you're afraid.

Yeah, yeah...sit behind the safety of your computer and tell other people that they're wrong for thinking not to interfere with a knife-wielding freak...:rolleyes:

Trust me, in my heart I'd want to help out too -- but when you're all of a sudden put in a situation like that, your first instinct is to SAVE YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY.....not "omg, let me try my best to save the victim". Having been in a similar situation (not nearly as gruesome), I can tell you that what you're saying is a LOT easier said than done.

[WontonTiger]

Yeah, yeah...sit behind the safety of your computer and tell other people that they're wrong for thinking not to interfere with a knife-wielding freak...:rolleyes:

Trust me, in my heart I'd want to help out too -- but when you're all of a sudden put in a situation like that, your first instinct is to SAVE YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY.....not "omg, let me try my best to save the victim". Having been in a similar situation (not nearly as gruesome), I can tell you that what you're saying is a LOT easier said than done.

You are EXACTLY the person I was referring to. For your information, I've been involved in incidents such as this(obviously not as gruesome). It it weren't for a good citizen in my youth, I might not even be here right now. I will not let that happen to someone else, if it is within my power. If everyone thought like you, society wouldn't exist.

I carry a knife whenever I travel. In a situation like this, it could be the difference.

Don't be such a coward. Everybody dies, some just sooner than others. Why not actually live for something while your here, rather than cower in fear whenever you're confronted by crazy people.

No one has a complete understanding of the situation/environment of the attack. Obviously there are many if's to the equation.

What upsets me most is that many people make it sound like we have no power. YOU HAVE POWER, and you can use it. Just think critically, and you'll be surprised at how powerful you can be.

[Blunt]

Why do people always sensationalize common sense? Why is everyone so afraid these days? I know that if that were me being stabbed, I would hope someone would help me. Being a man of conscience, I would DO MY BEST to get something together. As I said earlier, there are many ifs, however of all the reports I've heard say that no one, not one soul tried to help the victim.

There isn't always going to be someone there to save you. Sometimes you really need to take things into your own hands. If he wasn't at the back of the bus (I'm not sure where they were positioned), then people would have had to RUN BY THE VICTIM to leave the bus. If that's the case, then it's shameful.

I hope you never find yourself in the same situation, because if everyone had your mindset, you'd be dead.

Perennial victims like yourself are easy to spot. Rather than think about things, you sensationalize the comment with . If the guy is dismembering a body, he most likely isn't focusing on everyone on the bus. Who says you have to do a jump kick. If you have any basic hand-to-hand training, you could at least do your best. I don't know if I could deal with the guilt of inaction.

Our society won't last the next hundred years. We're just pockets of fear mongers and crazies. Keep marginalizing people because you're afraid.

Give me a freaking break. This guy is armed with a 'Rambo' type knife, he's probably stabbed the victim 5 times before you even realized what's happening. And you wanna attack him?
Sorry, but there would have been two casualties if you where there. Everyone has to assess the situation on that moment. If you see a big guy with a knife stabbing a man 50 times already and you want to attack him unarmed rather than flee, then I wish you luck.

Being stupid in real life has severe consequences compared to acting tough on the internet, so talk all you like.

[winner2000]

You are EXACTLY the person I was referring to. For your information, I've been involved in incidents such as this. It it weren't for a good citizen in my youth, I might not even be here right now. I will not let that happen to someone else, if it is within my power. If everyone thought like you, society wouldn't exist.

I carry a knife whenever I travel. In a situation like this, it could be the difference.

Don't be such a coward. Everybody dies, some just sooner than others. Why not actually live for something while your here, rather than cower in fear whenever you're confronted by crazy people.

First off, stop being so dramatic

Second of all, funny how you call me a coward yet you walk the streets of Toronto with a knife...interesting....

So if you want to save a victim by putting yourself in danger, by all means, go right ahead. Pull out that big boy knife of yours and do the deed. But for us regular folk who go about our lives normally (without weapons in our pockets), as selfish/rude/cowardly as it sounds to you....if a 250lb man is stabbing someone with a knife, I will save myself/family/friends first, thanks.

[winner2000]

What upsets me most is that many people make it sound like we have no power. YOU HAVE POWER, and you can use it. Just think critically, and you'll be surprised at how powerful you can be.


Think CRITICALLY? In a situation like THAT?

Sorry dude, but life isn't a fu**ing math equation -- you need to get out more and not sit in the safety of the suburbs behind your cozy computer.

[D-Roc]

You are EXACTLY the person I was referring to. For your information, I've been involved in incidents such as this. It it weren't for a good citizen in my youth, I might not even be here right now. I will not let that happen to someone else, if it is within my power. If everyone thought like you, society wouldn't exist.

I carry a knife whenever I travel. In a situation like this, it could be the difference.
Don't be such a coward. Everybody dies, some just sooner than others. Why not actually live for something while your here, rather than cower in fear whenever you're confronted by crazy people.

No one has a complete understanding of the situation/environment of the attack. Obviously there are many if's to the equation.

What upsets me most is that many people make it sound like we have no power. YOU HAVE POWER, and you can use it. Just think critically, and you'll be surprised at how powerful you can be.

I am one to try to always help when I can, even if my family is with me, but my priority is the safety of my family above all else.

1. There were women with children (one sitting right behind what was happening) on that bus. The man was 6 foot and 3 times the size of his victim. Maybe 250lbs plus?? He was calm, not showing any aggression which in itself is damn scary. Very tight enviroment with little room to manuver. So in essensence, it was not within their power without putting others at risk. One woman had to "toss" her child over the seats to get him/her out safely.

2. Carrying a concealed weapon is illegal and can be easily turned against you

3. Yes people have the power to help, but first they must overcome their fears which is not easy to do and those people should not be critizied for this. Hell, I would have been scared in this situation. And for the record. It was reported that a couple of the passangers did go back to help the victim, but at that point, the decapitation was already happening. The bus driver and the passangers did everything right. Kept calm (even though I am surprised they were), and detained the man within the bus.

In high stress situations like this, thinking logically (or critically as you stated) is sometimes near impossible to do.

[perplexed_one]

http://www.thestar.com/article/471031

The RCMP have charged a 40-year-old Edmonton man, Vince Weiguang Li, in the gruesome slaying aboard a Greyhound bus near Portage la Prairie, Man.

[MS_Project]

Even if someone wants to be the hero, it is very difficult to fight the big man in a limited space area in the greyhound bus. There's barely any space to do some karate kicks and the isle is quite narrow.

[billdozer]

Think CRITICALLY? In a situation like THAT?

Sorry dude, but life isn't a fu**ing math equation -- you need to get out more and not sit in the safety of the suburbs behind your cozy computer.

he probably runs with his knife out because you can run faster that way, just like in counter-strike, where he gets all his combat training.

[burnt_toast]

You are EXACTLY the person I was referring to. For your information, I've been involved in incidents such as this. It it weren't for a good citizen in my youth, I might not even be here right now. I will not let that happen to someone else, if it is within my power. If everyone thought like you, society wouldn't exist.

I carry a knife whenever I travel. In a situation like this, it could be the difference.

Don't be such a coward. Everybody dies, some just sooner than others. Why not actually live for something while your here, rather than cower in fear whenever you're confronted by crazy people.

No one has a complete understanding of the situation/environment of the attack. Obviously there are many if's to the equation.

What upsets me most is that many people make it sound like we have no power. YOU HAVE POWER, and you can use it. Just think critically, and you'll be surprised at how powerful you can be.

IF you are that SCARED to carry a knife with you, why not make it easier by carrying a gun??

[Dano76]

This is getting out of hand.

And oddly enough, I disagree and think that people are living with less and less fear nowadays. People can now casually toss out insults like "coward," or otherwise mistreat each other, because they can be sure that 99.9% of the time no one will do anything about it. I'm pretty sure them there was fighting words not too long ago, and a can of whoopa$$ would have been the response to such insults...

[Nikita]

Well we know when a shooting occurs what the suspect usually equates to.

We all know? No, you suspect, in reality you know crap so rely on stereotypes. You really believe white people are never shooters...seriously? You need to educate yourself.

I understand your point, however if people were able to handle the shock of the situation, you might be able to work with others to incapacitate the crazy man. If this guy had a knife, it's possible one of the people on board had one as well. The element of surprise can often define the whole encounter. There are so many ifs in play here.



You could just as easily say that if people reacted quickly, someone may have been saved. More ifs that enter into the equation.

I feel for the victims family. As far as I can tell, the maniac mutilated the body without conscience. I really hope that he didn't eat pieces of the guys body, as that would just ice the cake on the whole sanity aspect.

Let's face it, by the time anyone could have reacted it was already too late for the victim. After the stabbing started, this all went down exactly as it should have IMO. Everyone got out, the stabber was locked inside the bus, he was no longer a risk to anyone, nobody else got injured, police got the bad guy....the proof is in the pudding, iow, there was no second victim, or third, or....well you get it.

Great, now that this is on CNN everyone in the United States thinks we are a bunch of crazies up here in Canada.

If you watch CNN, you've already seen and heard the most gruesome of gruesome crimes. While Americans might be surprised this happened in their gentle neighbor's country, it's pretty obvious there are a lot more crazies right in thier own country. In any event, what the Americans think of us is pretty unimportant in the bigger scheme of things.

How does capital punishment cost more money? Having to pay for health care, and food, and everything in prison would cost way more than a needle to the arm or the electric chair.

Personally, i don't know whether or not he deserves the death penalty(if he could get it), we don't know the full side of the story, the person obviously has something wrong with his brain.

Studies have consistently shown that the cost of mandatory appeals over the life of a death row inmate costs the system more than keeping one imprisoned for 50 years.

[UrbanPoet]

This thread shows us exactly how human nature is like if there ever was a zombie outbreak (or some sort of major crisis/disaster).

We'd have a few people walking around with guns and knives saying "Yeah... I'll cut that mofo back!" a few saying "yeah... I got gun.... Too bad it isnt legal to blow the head off the perp."

Then we have the people saying "Im saving my ass, my family and friends first.".

Then we got some sensible people that do a bit of a balance. They'll get the fcuk out, keep a distance, and provide assistance\call authourities...

[WontonTiger]

Give me a freaking break. This guy is armed with a 'Rambo' type knife, he's probably stabbed the victim 5 times before you even realized what's happening. And you wanna attack him?
Sorry, but there would have been two casualties if you where there. Everyone has to assess the situation on that moment. If you see a big guy with a knife stabbing a man 50 times already and you want to attack him unarmed rather than flee, then I wish you luck.

Being stupid in real life has severe consequences compared to acting tough on the internet, so talk all you like.

Being a coward in general has severe consequences as well.

I hope you're never in this situation...

Not to detract from this, however I don't often see 6 foot tall 200+ pound Asians. I'm 6 and change, 210 lbs, and I carry a 3 inch blade in my bag.

[UrbanPoet]

Being a coward in general has severe consequences as well.

I hope you're never in this situation...

Not to detract from this, however I don't often see 6 foot tall 200+ pound Asians. I'm 6 and change, 210 lbs, and I carry a 3 inch blade in my bag.

wow... so you might be as crazy as that man. ;D

[Dano76]

I think we should all do ourselves a favour and stop feeding him bait.

[mgronqui]

It's **** like this that causes people to go nuts.

[WontonTiger]

First off, stop being so dramatic

Second of all, funny how you call me a coward yet you walk the streets of Toronto with a knife...interesting....

So if you want to save a victim by putting yourself in danger, by all means, go right ahead. Pull out that big boy knife of yours and do the deed. But for us regular folk who go about our lives normally (without weapons in our pockets), as selfish/rude/cowardly as it sounds to you....if a 250lb man is stabbing someone with a knife, I will save myself/family/friends first, thanks.

I don't carry a knife in Toronto, it's in MY TRAVEL BAG (typically taken when camping).

Again, with a mindset like that, I hope that your family or friends never get caught without you around. I'm not trying to over dramatize the situation, just don't accept the blanket opinion that we can't do anything. It's this thought that helps criminals get away with their crimes.

So from what I've read here, we're dealing with a 6+ft tall asian, who weighs 250lbs, and had a Rambo knife.

[ricoboxing]

We'd have a few people walking around with guns and knives saying "Yeah... I'll cut that mofo back!"

that would be me if i was a young single dude


Then we have the people saying "Im saving my ass, my family and friends first.".


but since im older married with kids, then this is me today.

[thelefteyeguy]

I think we should all do ourselves a favour and stop feeding him bait.

+1...WT is on a tear the last few days...just look at his previous post.

[BuildBuyBreed]

People like WT who feel they could've saved the day, don't realize that by intervening or reacting further provokes attack, and can make things worse.

Take armed robbery for instance, a Brinks guard is held up, gun pointed in his direction, he has 2 options:

a) give up the money, surrender, be a 'coward'
b) defend himself, draw his weapon, be a 'hero'

Results:

a) badguy takes it and runs away, he got what he wanted so he has no reason to stick around
b) badguy shoots, bullets fly, sure badguy might be hit but guard is definitely hit, not to mention all the innocent bystanders

The results here directly mirror what did happen and what could've happened on the bus.

[Dano76]

Yes, but there is a chance the dumba$$ guard might actualy be regarded as some kind of hero for fighting back.

Man, this incident has totally weirded me out. I still can't get over just how plain nuts it is.

[lata008]

To begin with there is no such thing in Canada as pleaing insanity. In Canada it's called not criminally responsible. We had to deal with a failed attmpt at it. The accused must have an evaluation done by their choice of doctors. The Crown Attorney then has the Crown's doctors evaluate. We were told that for all intense purposes both sets of doctors need to agree for a successful defense. If they don't agree it becomes one side's experts against the others which rarely happens and rarely results in a NCR conviction. If it's a successful defense the convicted is sent to a locked mental facility with yearly reviews. To be clear they can refuse treatment while in the facility. It's entirely possible to be released within a very few short years unfortunately. In our case we were warned that if the defense was successful he could realistically be out at the 1 to 2 year mark because of the circumstances involving prescription meds.

I can actually see his lawyer plead automatism. There are several details which could support this: the attacker could have been in a state of "sleep" since it was very late at night and others on the bus were sleeping, he calmly stabbed his victim instead of showing emotion and he did it in a robotic fashion, he didn't know his victim, thus the victim was not a "stressor". In other words, he had no motive (that we know of right now) to stab the victim.

How his lawyer would explain what happened when the police arrived: the taunting, trying to escape, would be more difficult since that doesn't really fit the defense.

And if I'm not mistaken, if he successfully pleads sane automatism, that is a complete acquittal. Man, our legal system sucks.

[WontonTiger]

People like WT who feel they could've saved the day, don't realize that by intervening or reacting further provokes attack, and can make things worse.

Take armed robbery for instance, a Brinks guard is held up, gun pointed in his direction, he has 2 options:

a) give up the money, surrender, be a 'coward'
b) defend himself, draw his weapon, be a 'hero'

Results:

a) badguy takes it and runs away, he got what he wanted so he has no reason to stick around
b) badguy shoots, bullets fly, sure badguy might be hit but guard is definitely hit, not to mention all the innocent bystanders

The results here directly mirror what did happen and what could've happened on the bus.

For the record, this will be my last post in this thread...

The situation you describe is completely different than the one being discussed. In that situation, if you think critically, you can diffuse the whole situation by just giving up the money. If the perp hasn't given you signs of insanity, it's the safest for everyone (no one gets hurt).

If someone is being attacked, then this doesn't apply as well as you think. If you miss an opportunity, and let the attacker continue, then more lives may be lost. If you restrain the attacker, you can save lives in the end.

Reacting to violence is completely different than losing possessions. If your life is threatened (you have real reason to think they could/will kill you), then fighting back is often the best option.

For the record, I'm no crazy. I just hate seeing everyone abdicate responsibility. Don't take a blanket position in these matters, just do your best, and use whatever opportunities you can find to your advantage. I'm no hero, however I'd like to think that others would pitch in and give you/us the advantage.

[Shaner]

I can actually see his lawyer plead automatism. There are several details which could support this: the attacker could have been in a state of "sleep" since it was very late at night and others on the bus were sleeping, he calmly stabbed his victim instead of showing emotion and he did it in a robotic fashion, he didn't know his victim, thus the victim was not a "stressor". In other words, he had no motive (that we know of right now) to stab the victim.

How his lawyer would explain what happened when the police arrived: the taunting, trying to escape, would be more difficult since that doesn't really fit the defense.

And if I'm not mistaken, if he successfully pleads sane automatism, that is a complete acquittal. Man, our legal system sucks.

There's not a chance that he'll successfully use the defence of non-insane automatism. It's not a common defence by any means, let alone when it involves murder. No judge is going to buy that reasoning.

[zoober]

There's not a chance that he'll successfully use the defence of non-insane automatism. It's not a common defence by any means, let alone when it involves murder. No judge is going to buy that reasoning.


Automatism doesn't really fly when you board a bus with a hunting knife in your pocket either.

Guy is clearly insane unless there is a connection that no one has discovered yet.

[lata008]

There's not a chance that he'll successfully use the defence of non-insane automatism. It's not a common defence by any means, let alone when it involves murder. No judge is going to buy that reasoning.
Non-insane automatism is definitely a stretch. Especially since there wasn't a triggering event or a psychological blow that we know of and because of the severity of the crime and what he did when police arrived. But I wouldn't rule out insane automatism. In that case, he's NCR and in a mental hospital for life. I don't know enough about mental hospitals but that doesn't seem like much of a punishment to me.

Automatism doesn't really fly when you board a bus with a hunting knife in your pocket either.

Guy is clearly insane unless there is a connection that no one has discovered yet.
You'd be surprised at how many people carry hunting knives. Scary.

[Nikita]

Non-insane automatism is definitely a stretch. Especially since there wasn't a triggering event or a psychological blow that we know of and because of the severity of the crime and what he did when police arrived. But I wouldn't rule out insane automatism. In that case, he's NCR and in a mental hospital for life. I don't know enough about mental hospitals but that doesn't seem like much of a punishment to me.


You'd be surprised at how many people carry hunting knives. Scary.

Mental hospitals may be just a little bit nicer than a jail (and I'm only guessing at that), but the bottom line is still the same...you lose your freedom, possibly forever. Call it jail, call it a hospital, you're still locked up and off the streets. The result is the same for the rest of us...he's off the streets and we're one nutcase safer.

[intercollector]

Mental hospitals may be just a little bit nicer than a jail (and I'm only guessing at that), but the bottom line is still the same...you lose your freedom, possibly forever. Call it jail, call it a hospital, you're still locked up and off the streets. The result is the same for the rest of us...he's off the streets and we're one nutcase safer.

Until he's released in 10 years from prison, or an undetermined time from the hospital. I think this is the main issue. I'm ok with not having capital punishment, but if you're not gonna have it, you still need a way of making sure these type of people never see the light of day again (sick or not sick...shouldn't matter from the public's perspective).

How can the system expect people to sleep at night knowing that extremely dangerous people, who have been convicted of serious crimes are walking the streets?

[Roseburger]

The suspect's name is Vince Weiguang Li for anyone who wants to know.

[Tjalfe]

still bobbles my mind how you can see a guy cut another guys head off, wave it around in front of the police, yet he is only a "suspect"
:(

[JeVartan]

If this would have happened in a country with the same level of "justice" as in Canada - the dude who murdered his victim would have been killed on the spot right there by the others.

In Canada this person can now please "insanity" and get off...

What a stupid system... what about this poor victim? Where are his rights? What about his family? Where is justice?

The murderer should face the same fate as his actions. In Canada and certain countries, the judges and the lawyers will take a stab at it, make a load of money (ie. taxpayers money that is), send the murder to some asylum, and he will be walking the streets again in 5 years...

Let's not talk about drunk drivers...


It is sad that is the current state of matters. I lost faith in our system after seeing Karla Homolka leave prison.

[JeVartan]

That's our health-care system for you; lord knows how many disturbed people are running around off their meds when they should be in an institution.

+1

[Nikita]

Until he's released in 10 years from prison, or an undetermined time from the hospital. I think this is the main issue. I'm ok with not having capital punishment, but if you're not gonna have it, you still need a way of making sure these type of people never see the light of day again (sick or not sick...shouldn't matter from the public's perspective).

How can the system expect people to sleep at night knowing that extremely dangerous people, who have been convicted of serious crimes are walking the streets?

So, like I said, call it jail or call it prison, the result is the same, he may get out, he may not. There are no guarantees in any system, nor can their be short of 'life in prison' actually meaning 'life in prison'.

The system can only do so much, why do people expect perfection when perfection is impossible? This guy was caught and we know where he is until he's released, IF he's released. There are others out there who have committed heinous crimes and not been caught, people who will commit heinous crimes that we won't know about until they do. How do we sleep at night knowing that?

[Byrns]

Pics of the guy here...

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/story/4207100p-4799431c.html

[at1212b]

This is truly a case of eye for an eye.

This is nuts. I think everybody is in agreement as to what he deserves. And just when someone deserves to be tasered over and over again, they don't do it.

Its just a sad sad situation.

[Blunt]

Being a coward in general has severe consequences as well.

I hope you're never in this situation...

Not to detract from this, however I don't often see 6 foot tall 200+ pound Asians. I'm 6 and change, 210 lbs, and I carry a 3 inch blade in my bag.

So, are you saying that everyone on that bus was a coward? If they were cowards, then opposite in this situation is is stupidity. I'm glad no one was stupid and got themselves killed.

Thank you for you wishes, I hope I'm never in this situation too.

[Ebola]

still bobbles my mind how you can see a guy cut another guys head off, wave it around in front of the police, yet he is only a "suspect"
:(

It's called a "legal system".

[Squally425]

From those pictures, he doesn't look very tall or big at all.

[rock hard]

From those pictures, he doesn't look very tall or big at all.

was just about to say the same thing... if he is over 6' the sheriff in the back is a monster!

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/ips_rich_content/74-li.jpg

[chauchau]

he's 5'8/9

[thelefteyeguy]

wait...5'8...someone should have taken him down!

oh wait...he had a huge knife :|

[skyrink]

yea, ive been following the story ever since i read about it yesterday morning....i would probably be traumatized for the rest of my life if i saw something like that. and i could never sit in a bus beside a stranger and feel safe ever again, and i gotta do this often since im going away for scool. the world is a scary place and the sick people who live among it are even scarier as it could be anyone that would do this to anyone :( my condolences to the victim's family and bus passengers.

[Dano76]

I'm guessing that by the end of the day people he will be 8 feet tall with fangs and claws.

[mgronqui]

Just the imagery of him consuming the flesh is disgusting. Was he sleep walking?

[UrbanPoet]

was just about to say the same thing... if he is over 6' the sheriff in the back is a monster!

[Ihttp://www.winnipegfreepress.com/ips_rich_content/74-li.jpg[/

Most Male Cops i see are pretty tall... Minimum 5'8.
Im 5'8 and i've never seen a cop shorter then me... Even a lot of the female cops are pretty tall!

[Shaner]

I'm guessing that by the end of the day people he will be 8 feet tall with fangs and claws.

By tomorrow morning, people will be claiming that it was William Wallace aboard that bus and that he was shooting lighting bolts out of his arse.

[dairymandip]

was just about to say the same thing... if he is over 6' the sheriff in the back is a monster!

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/ips_rich_content/74-li.jpg

strange the way yesterday i was thinking some like 6'3 guy buff and muscular

[mgronqui]

Looks like he's wearing a thin diaper.

[st7860]

the perp will probably get a conditional sentence

[sucka]

he could be 6' .... most cops are 6'2 + so it would'nt be a stretch if the cop in the back is 6'4-6'5 ....

[zoober]

I don't think that anyone could have helped the victim. He had probably been stabbed a half dozen times in the neck and chest before anyone realized what was happening. Not to mention that they were probably 20+ minutes away from a medical centre. He was toast.

Half of the passengers were probably asleep. Can you imagine waking up to screams and everyone running off the bus? You would probably assume that there was an accident and try to get off yourself.

I have a history of putting myself in danger to try and help other people, but if I had seen an 8 inch hunting knife stabbing in and out of a guys neck I wouldn't have had much hope for helping him.

At the same time, I am surprised that a cop didn't shoot to kill this guy while he was waving the head at them. I don't see him lasting long in jail before he is mutilated by the prisoners.

[flexwong]

I don't think that anyone could have helped the victim. He had probably been stabbed a half dozen times in the neck and chest before anyone realized what was happening. Not to mention that they were probably 20+ minutes away from a medical centre. He was toast.

Half of the passengers were probably asleep. Can you imagine waking up to screams and everyone running off the bus? You would probably assume that there was an accident and try to get off yourself.

I have a history of putting myself in danger to try and help other people, but if I had seen an 8 inch hunting knife stabbing in and out of a guys neck I wouldn't have had much hope for helping him.

At the same time, I am surprised that a cop didn't shoot to kill this guy while he was waving the head at them. I don't see him lasting long in jail before he is mutilated by the prisoners.

he won't be in jail. he'll in a mental asylum most likely.

[BuildBuyBreed]

Doesn't really look like a psycho eh? Then again, most psychos don't.

Looks very mild-mannered yet so pathetic.

At this point, who gives a fcuk WHY he did it, we don't need to understand what made him do what he did, we should focus on his punishment.

How about posting the victim's picture... instead of that lunatic.

http://multimedia.thestar.com/images/de/fb/937313624226a83886bdc58fe591.jpeg

Poor kid... so young.

[st7860]

Doesn't really look like a psycho eh? Then again, most psychos don't.

Looks very mild-mannered yet so pathetic.

At this point, who gives a fcuk WHY he did it, we don't need to understand what made him do what he did, we should focus on his punishment.

How about posting the victim's picture... instead of that lunatic.

http://multimedia.thestar.com/images/de/fb/937313624226a83886bdc58fe591.jpeg

Poor kid... so young.


http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/4975/aarespectvo3.gif

[eightyeight]

************

Man, some blogs have been posting pictures of a Vincent Li from Winnepeg on facebook asking "Is he the one???"

Yet the picture they post are of a 20 year old asian kid.. OBVIOUSLY not the 40 y/o psychopath. It's not right to post ppls info/pics like that while making horrendous inferrences due to the guy's similar name.. Can you imagine how many death threats this poor kid has gotten within the past 24 hours?

[CCCC3333]

Is the attacker from Edmonton?
In the article, it said that he got on the bus in Brandon.

[st7860]

Is the attacker from Edmonton?
In the article, it said that he got on the bus in Brandon.

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=ba3498aa-995c-4f03-92f7-1a3cb0c79532
A 40-year-old Edmonton man was identified by RCMP this morning as the man charged with the fatal mutilation of a fellow passenger aboard a Greyhound bus Wednesday. Vince Weiguang Li appeared in court in Portage la Prairie Friday, charged with second-degree murder.

The Edmonton resident, who appeared in court with bandages on his hand and cuts and bruises to his face, was arrested Wednesday at the scene and charged early Friday with second-degree murder.

[bromance]

freaking dumb.............................asian guy

the nice kid did nothing and had so much to live for

[UrbanPoet]

Man, some blogs have been posting pictures of a Vincent Li from Winnepeg on facebook asking "Is he the one???"

Yet the picture they post are of a 20 year old asian kid.. OBVIOUSLY not the 40 y/o psychopath. It's not right to post ppls info/pics like that while making horrendous inferrences due to the guy's similar name.. Can you imagine how many death threats this poor kid has gotten within the past 24 hours?

thats what happened to some guy after the Virginia Tech MAssacre... And they didnt even have the same name.. they were just Asians!!!

[heymikey]

thats what happened to some guy after the Virginia Tech MAssacre... And they didnt even have the same name.. they were just Asians!!!
Now I guess you guys now know what it's like to be an Arab.

[canabiz]

Now I guess you guys now know what it's like to be an Arab.

What about white folks like Paul Bernardo or Clifford Olson or black guys as seen on Cops or AMW.com ?

Does any Chinese-Canadian here expect any backlash ? I doubt it, this is an isolated incident.

[mgronqui]

Now I guess you guys now know what it's like to be an Arab.

Hell of a point. Applauds.

[calcuu]

I just read this whole thread and this situation is just messed up. I can't imagine how it would be to be on that bus watching a beheading while he waves it around and even eating some of the victims flesh.

I know everyone would of liked to help out in their minds but please be real. The guy was holding a Rambo style knife while no passengers even have weapons. The situation was handled pretty well in my opinion. The people who saw the whole thing must be traumatized.

[iamfat]

and thats why we need guns.

we cant expect the police to be everywere all the time.

[st7860]

and thats why we need guns.

we cant expect the police to be everywere all the time.

http://www.angelfire.com/alt/amendment/ccw.html

[CCCC3333]

Does anyone know why the attacker was in Brandon?

[Shaner]

Does anyone know why the attacker was in Brandon?

Does it really make a difference?

[JeVartan]

and thats why we need guns.

we cant expect the police to be everywere all the time.


No, thank you.

If everyone on the bus had guns (naturally the attacker would be having one too by this rule of thumb!), there would have been a lot more casualties.


This is a really horrifying and sad tragedy. Seeing his picture just makes it a lot more real and my heart goes out to his family and friends who will no longer get to see him or watch him grow up.This boy did not deserve it at all. May he rest in peace.

[branat]

all this would've been prevented if only we have a knife registry

[mrelusive]

Listen to the last few seconds of the RCMP audio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtyOPs-x9k0

[chrza]

Until he's released in 10 years from prison, or an undetermined time from the hospital. I think this is the main issue. I'm ok with not having capital punishment, but if you're not gonna have it, you still need a way of making sure these type of people never see the light of day again (sick or not sick...shouldn't matter from the public's perspective).

How can the system expect people to sleep at night knowing that extremely dangerous people, who have been convicted of serious crimes are walking the streets?

Well, it's either life in prison or the death penatly. Not 10 years because there is no death penalty.

[rb]

and thats why we need guns.

we cant expect the police to be everywere all the time.

Yes so nutters like this one can kill lots more people on the bus by unloading a few rounds ...buts its ok as long as he's killed by a fellow passenger :?:

[chrza]

Yes so nutters like this one can kill lots more people on the bus by unloading a few rounds ...buts its ok as long as he's killed by a fellow passenger :?:

Haha, some people don't even realize how ridiculous they sound. (Not referring to you, by the way).

[Dimension]

Omg, I read about this in the Metro today after class. Man,...this is so disturbing.

[ZenOps]

How is a gun going to help you defend yourself if you are asleep?

That would be like saying that you need a nuclear warhead of a few million casualty capacity to protect yourself from a handgun.

[UrbanPoet]

and thats why we need guns.

we cant expect the police to be everywere all the time.

http://www.angelfire.com/alt/amendment/ccw.html

No, thank you.

If everyone on the bus had guns (naturally the attacker would be having one too by this rule of thumb!), there would have been a lot more casualties.


This is a really horrifying and sad tragedy. Seeing his picture just makes it a lot more real and my heart goes out to his family and friends who will no longer get to see him or watch him grow up.This boy did not deserve it at all. May he rest in peace.

Yes so nutters like this one can kill lots more people on the bus by unloading a few rounds ...buts its ok as long as he's killed by a fellow passenger :?:

But no1 thinks about all the violence it prevents, which is a statistic that is UNREPORTED (and impossible to track). But it can be easily tracked by common sense... A Criminals worst night mare is when their victim fights back and kills them.

Of course this situation in this thread is much different... It involves what seems like a very mentally disturbed person. People like this would kill no matter what laws are out there or culture is out there.

Look @ Japan..... They have some of the strictest laws (marijuana can put you in jail for a LONG time). No one is allowed to own a gun...
A rifle/shot gun license is available, but the rules make it almost impossible to get. On the other hand...... they hold a record for one of the worst mass killings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre

[Mgz]

Omg, I read about this in the Metro today after class. Man,...this is so disturbing.

same here

Metro said it was a "Native" man (? lol ?) that stabs a white man :|

and my apartment is 1 block away from Greyhound Edmonton

and I ALWAYS use Greyhound to travel to Red Deer/Calgary/Banff :|

crazy stuff, I always think crime like this would only be on CSI, but it happens IRL too :(


ALSO while we're at it, BAN ALL KNIFE.

people will only be allowed to use green laser 500mW to cut meat, no exception.

[chrza]

But no1 thinks about all the violence it prevents, which is a statistic that is UNREPORTED (and impossible to track). But it can be easily tracked by common sense... A Criminals worst night mare is when their victim fights back and kills them.

Of course this situation in this thread is much different... It involves what seems like a very mentally disturbed person. People like this would kill no matter what laws are out there or culture is out there.

Look @ Japan..... They have some of the strictest laws (marijuana can put you in jail for a LONG time). No one is allowed to own a gun...
A rifle/shot gun license is available, but the rules make it almost impossible to get. On the other hand...... they hold a record for one of the worst mass killings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre

You're comparing one school massacre? What's Japan's overall murder rate like?

[Mgz]

does anybody know what bus number is it ? I wouldn't want to board that haunted bus, ever :(

[HockeyFan]

This is insane. I've never heard anything so crazy especially in Canada! The sad part is that he'll get off on some insanity plea.

That is one of the most painful ways to die and I can't help but keep thinking of what the poor kid went through I wasn't even there and this really bothers me. Imagine the people that witnessed it.


On a side note, Greyhound's business is gonna take a dive. I wonder if they'll implement new policies before boarding a a bus.

[peterk]

just crazy! poor guy.
I'm planning on bussing from edmonton to toronto in a few weeks! :|

however, I worry now about the wrath of security measures they will try and enforce on greyhound. Which will just be useless. If we have bus terminals similar to airport terminals in the future I'm gonna be pissed. then what next? TTC metal detectors? Make sure you get to your stop 60-90 minutes ahead of your scheduled departure for work every morning guys.

I suppose the only benefit from this is that I will get to lowball all the people on craig's lists and kijiji starting to sell their cross-canada greyhound tickets!

[tlamm]

[QUOTE=jcoltage;7193640]That was one of the first things that came to my mind ... cheap greyhound tickets ... sweet - pretty sick but they never have a sale or discount..QUOTE]

Book 14 days or more in advance and save 50 percent is the standard Greyhound Discount.

[ephemera]

While this guy was eating the body, why didn't the cops shoot him? He should have been dead, instead he is up for second degree murder so he could see the light of day very soon.

[st7860]

While this guy was eating the body, why didn't the cops shoot him? He should have been dead, instead he is up for second degree murder so he could see the light of day very soon.

if he was shot by the police then his next of kin would sue the police for wrongful death and probably win too.

thats why.

[Mattones]

I say just let him rot in jail. I'm sure he will get a beating or two for this.

[Beradon]

I don't see him lasting long in jail before he is mutilated by the prisoners.Let's hope this happens. Imagine getting constantly stabbed by other prisoners but not enough to die. He heals and it happens again. Over and over... he needs to suffer.


This is insane. I've never heard anything so crazy especially in Canada! The sad part is that he'll get off on some insanity plea. Then I would expect someone would take it upon themselves to assassinate him and do society a favor.

That is one of the most painful ways to die and I can't help but keep thinking of what the poor kid went through I wasn't even there and this really bothers me. Imagine the people that witnessed it.Those able bodied men brought deserve to be criticized for their inaction. Seriously, looking at the pics now, the fcuktard is a slim 5'8 at most. Don't tell me 2-3 guys couldn't bring this bastard down. They all made him out to be over 6' tall and 200+ lbs. It sounds more they were trying to justify their swift exit from the bus.

[chrza]

Those able bodied men brought deserve to be criticized for their inaction. Seriously, looking at the pics now, the fcuktard is a slim 5'8 at most. Don't tell me 2-3 guys couldn't bring this bastard down. They all made him out to be over 6' tall and 200+ lbs. It sounds more they were trying to justify their swift exit from the bus.

That or they weren't able to give an accurate guesstimation considering they were wistnessing someone getting stabbed to death and decapitated. Just a thought, though.

But sure, you can pretend you'd be Steven Seagal in any given situation. :rolleyes:

[st7860]

That or they weren't able to give an accurate guesstimation considering they were wistnessing someone getting stabbed to death and decapitated. Just a thought, though.

But sure, you can pretend you'd be Steven Seagal in any given situation. :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacifist

[CCCC3333]

if he was shot by the police then his next of kin would sue the police for wrongful death and probably win too.

thats why.
+1
That is exactly what happened in the Dumas case.
Edit:Actually, I'm not sure if the Dumas family won the case.

[chrza]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacifist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YouMissedMyPoint

[st7860]

+1
That is exactly what happened in the Dumas case.
Edit:Actually, I'm not sure if the Dumas family won the case.

http://blog.canoe.ca/raisinghell/2007/04/17/dumas_case_drags_on_too_long
Dumas, then 18, was fatally shot by a police officer Jan. 31, 2005 during a robbery investigation. Dumas allegedly went after the cop with a screwdriver and refused to drop his weapon even after being pepper-sprayed, police say.


unfortunately i can't find anything newer than that year old article.

[Peckerwood]

I seem to remember an incident where a man firing an AK47 at the White House in Washington DC was brought down by unarmed bystanders.

That knife can't be more dangerous than an AK47 can it? :confused:

-------------

One bystander with a gun...BANG...dead murderer

[CouchPotato]

Some thoughts:

1. Pleading insanity (actually this guy probably is insane) doesn't mean they put you back on the street. You are sent to a psychiatric institution where you cannot do anyone any harm.

2. Anyone criticizing the bus passengers should do some research on just what the passengers actually did. They should be commended for their actions, not criticized.

3. The police did their jobs correctly.

4. An escalation of arms is not any sort of solution.

5. While Greyhound may suffer a short-term drop in business, I don't think people blame the bus line and they should be rebound in the long-term.

6. We may never know the perpetrator's motivations. Be prepared for a lack of closure and understanding to this tragic event.

[SFA]

Being a coward in general has severe consequences as well.

I hope you're never in this situation...

Not to detract from this, however I don't often see 6 foot tall 200+ pound Asians. I'm 6 and change, 210 lbs, and I carry a 3 inch blade in my bag.

It is people like YOU who make our streets unsafe and crappy.. WTH are you doing with a 3inch blade in your bag walking around the streets? Do you how unsafe and stupid that is?

Do us all a favor.. leave your rambo mentality and try to behave and act as a responsible human being in a normal and calm society where you don't carry a bag with a knife in it.

[ah_long]

I hope there's no one imitating this..

you know how ppl imitate school shootings and such...
this is simply sick

[ghostryder]

Those able bodied men brought deserve to be criticized for their inaction. Seriously, looking at the pics now, the fcuktard is a slim 5'8 at most. Don't tell me 2-3 guys couldn't bring this bastard down. They all made him out to be over 6' tall and 200+ lbs. It sounds more they were trying to justify their swift exit from the bus.

Maybe they read this first:


http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/08/01/bc-stabbing.html

Stabbed Good Samaritan in serious condition
Last Updated: Friday, August 1, 2008 | 3:07 PM ET Comments33Recommend43CBC News

A man who was stabbed near a Surrey, B.C., SkyTrain station while trying to protect a woman involved in an apparent domestic dispute is in serious condition, police said.

Investigators said the man, 29, was driving by the Gateway SkyTrain station in the Whalley district shortly after midnight Thursday when he noticed a man and woman arguing.

"These two people … were standing on the street having a verbal altercation, and then there was some physical contact between the two, with the male being the aggressor," Insp. Garry Begg said. "That's the point at which this person chose to intervene."

The victim was stabbed once in the chest, police said.

The couple fled from the scene and the victim was driven to the hospital by a passenger in his car, where he remains in stable but serious condition, Begg said.

Begg said people should be careful when attempting to intervene in a violent dispute: "Most people don't have the ability to defend themselves against a knife or a gun or whatever."

Police are hoping video surveillance from the SkyTrain station will lead to an arrest.

Witnesses described the man with the knife as Caucasian, approximately 20 years old, five-feet-seven to five-feet-10 inches tall, wearing a white hoodie, jeans and a ball cap.

The woman was described as Caucasian, approximately 17 years old, five-feet-five inches tall with shoulder-length brown hair, wearing black pants and a white shirt.

Anyone with information can contact the serious crime unit at (604) 599-0502, or Crime Stoppers at 1-800-222-TIPS.

[canabiz]

A little bit more info about the killer. He worked as a newspaper deliverer in Edmonton and apparently told his boss he's on the way to Winnipeg for an interview.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080802/ap_on_re_ca/canada_bus_stabbing

[Peckerwood]

It is people like YOU who make our streets unsafe and crappy.. WTH are you doing with a 3inch blade in your bag walking around the streets? Do you how unsafe and stupid that is?

Do us all a favor.. leave your rambo mentality and try to behave and act as a responsible human being in a normal and calm society where you don't carry a bag with a knife in it.
Huh?

By telling WT he shouldn't carry a knife for personal defense, you are allowing the actions of the most sociopathic element of society(Vincent Li) dictate the degree of freedom for WT and everybody else. Is that what you want??

It isn't a "Rambo mentality" to want to ensure that your right to defend yourself is made more efficient through the use of tools...we are tool users BTW. But then again you might still want the world to go back to the 1400's where the strong can attack the weak with impunity; where women had to belong to men for protection.

[dairymandip]

Maybe they read this first:


http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/08/01/bc-stabbing.html

Stabbed Good Samaritan in serious condition
Last Updated: Friday, August 1, 2008 | 3:07 PM ET Comments33Recommend43CBC News

A man who was stabbed near a Surrey, B.C., SkyTrain station while trying to protect a woman involved in an apparent domestic dispute is in serious condition, police said.

Investigators said the man, 29, was driving by the Gateway SkyTrain station in the Whalley district shortly after midnight Thursday when he noticed a man and woman arguing.

"These two people … were standing on the street having a verbal altercation, and then there was some physical contact between the two, with the male being the aggressor," Insp. Garry Begg said. "That's the point at which this person chose to intervene."

The victim was stabbed once in the chest, police said.

The couple fled from the scene and the victim was driven to the hospital by a passenger in his car, where he remains in stable but serious condition, Begg said.

Begg said people should be careful when attempting to intervene in a violent dispute: "Most people don't have the ability to defend themselves against a knife or a gun or whatever."

Police are hoping video surveillance from the SkyTrain station will lead to an arrest.

Witnesses described the man with the knife as Caucasian, approximately 20 years old, five-feet-seven to five-feet-10 inches tall, wearing a white hoodie, jeans and a ball cap.

The woman was described as Caucasian, approximately 17 years old, five-feet-five inches tall with shoulder-length brown hair, wearing black pants and a white shirt.

Anyone with information can contact the serious crime unit at (604) 599-0502, or Crime Stoppers at 1-800-222-TIPS.

also someone in mississauga i think a few weeks ago intervened in a dispute
ended up in a coma

im sorry but in this day and age better to just look the other way and shrug eh not me

[CouchPotato]

also someone in mississauga i think a few weeks ago intervened in a dispute
ended up in a coma

im sorry but in this day and age better to just look the other way and shrug eh not me

I don't think that's quiet right either. I think the idea is that we should all try to help our fellow man, but in doing so, you need to have a clear strategy on how to protect yourself. Don't just jump in if it's not obvious how you are going to defend yourself from harm.

[CouchPotato]

I personally don't think we need a knife registry, stricter baggage checks for buses or a law to allow the general public to carry guns.

However....

Do you think that bus drivers should be allowed/required to carry arms?

[canabiz]

I personally don't think we need a knife registry, stricter baggage checks for buses or a law to allow the general public to carry guns.

However....

Do you think that bus drivers should be allowed/required to carry arms?

That will open a whole new can of worms. They will have to go through strict security clearances and extensive training. Not sure if the bus companies have the budgets to do that.

[Dimension]

same here

Metro said it was a "Native" man (? lol ?) that stabs a white man :|


Lol, exactly! I know I read that too! wtf? Geez, can Metro get their facts straight?!

[dairymandip]

Lol, exactly! I know I read that too! wtf? Geez, can Metro get their facts straight?!

marty york must of wrote that

[BuildBuyBreed]

We're talking close-quarters here. I assume you've been on a Greyhound before, you realize it's a tight 1-foot wide aisle vs an open area.

1 quick whip of the arm and a knife will kill, if the killer flails his arms uncontrollably there's no way to avoid it.

Knives need no skill, they don't run outta ammo, they don't jam, no aiming... with a gun, you have to aim and be accurate at the same time... sure you can spray shots all over the place, but your target can avoid that spray with cover/concealment.

Also in an open area, you have time to cut the distance down, in a bus, you don't have that luxury.

I seem to remember an incident where a man firing an AK47 at the White House in Washington DC was brought down by unarmed bystanders. That knife can't be more dangerous than an AK47 can it? :confused:

[Peckerwood]

We're talking close-quarters here. I assume you've been on a Greyhound before, you realize it's a tight 1-foot wide aisle vs an open area.

1 quick whip of the arm and a knife will kill, if the killer flails his arms uncontrollably there's no way to avoid it.

Knives need no skill, they don't run outta ammo, they don't jam, no aiming... with a gun, you have to aim and be accurate at the same time... sure you can spray shots all over the place, but your target can avoid that spray with cover/concealment.

Also in an open area, you have time to cut the distance down, in a bus, you don't have that luxury.
You do realize that you are talking to a Martial Arts Instructor with close to 28 combined years of experience right?

Cover/concealment...lmao...do you even know the diff?

Your post is so full of inexperienced drivel that it would take far too much of my time to respond to it accurately without first writing an essay or two.

:)

[BuildBuyBreed]

Here we go...

So why don't you head outside right now and ride around on a TTC bus all night with no weapon, I'm sure you'll have ample opportunity to defend someone. Be sure to sit in a crowded one too, tell me how it works out.

Cover/concealment... I guess you missed the "/" between the words, denoting a difference.

The only drivel I see is all this talk about how you Rambo-types would've jumped in to save the day, and how the rest of the passengers were displaying cowardice by not doing so... they did the right thing, they focused on the people who were still alive, they didn't provoke the killer by intervening, and they ensured the killer didn't go anywhere until the proper authorities arrived (without sacrificing their own lives or the lives of others) despite witnessing a horrific act.

You do realize that you are talking to a Martial Arts Instructor with close to 28 combined years of experience right?

Cover/concealment...lmao...do you even know the diff?

Your post is so full of inexperienced drivel that it would take far too much of my time to respond to it accurately without first writing an essay or two.

:)

[CHINAdeals]

What about white folks like Paul Bernardo or Clifford Olson or black guys as seen on Cops or AMW.com ?

Does any Chinese-Canadian here expect any backlash ? I doubt it, this is an isolated incident.

+1

heck. look at my username.. i ain't hiding

brings friggin shame to chinese ppl though...what a psycho

what i 'heard'

from a source was that he had a 'Caucasian' wife (or an asian one i forget) who left him for another man..i think a white man..

and this was kind of retaliatory action against his 'feelings'.. i dunno

neways..no idea how reliable this source is.. so yah just speculatory

[Shaner]

+1

heck. look at my username.. i ain't hiding

brings friggin shame to chinese ppl though...what a psycho

what i 'heard'

from a source was that he had a 'Caucasian' wife (or an asian one i forget) who left him for another man..i think a white man..

and this was kind of retaliatory action against his 'feelings'.. i dunno

neways..no idea how reliable this source is.. so yah just speculatory

Does your source also know who killed Kennedy, because I'm dying to find out the truth.

[gretzky99]

While this guy was eating the body, why didn't the cops shoot him? He should have been dead, instead he is up for second degree murder so he could see the light of day very soon.

where did you hear that he was eating the dead body? :confused:

[gretzky99]

RCMP police radio Youtube leak and Front page national post / eye witness reports.


???
I don't see that written anywhere on National Post....

link please.

[Ebola]

I personally don't think we need a knife registry, stricter baggage checks for buses or a law to allow the general public to carry guns.

However....

Do you think that bus drivers should be allowed/required to carry arms?

No.

[Sepiraph]

We're talking close-quarters here. I assume you've been on a Greyhound before, you realize it's a tight 1-foot wide aisle vs an open area.

1 quick whip of the arm and a knife will kill, if the killer flails his arms uncontrollably there's no way to avoid it.

Knives need no skill, they don't run outta ammo, they don't jam, no aiming... with a gun, you have to aim and be accurate at the same time... sure you can spray shots all over the place, but your target can avoid that spray with cover/concealment.

Also in an open area, you have time to cut the distance down, in a bus, you don't have that luxury.

To be fair it IS extremely tough in that situation for a passenger to fight off an attack with a big knife, but if you HAVE to do it, they can probably grab some large bag and either throw it at the attacker or use it as a shield to get within close quarter. Either way it is a very dangerous situation to get yourself into.

[Lava]

To be fair it IS extremely tough in that situation for a passenger to fight off an attack with a big knife, but if you HAVE to do it, they can probably grab some large bag and either throw it at the attacker or use it as a shield to get within close quarter. Either way it is a very dangerous situation to get yourself into.

All that would do is make the attacker angry. The passengers made the right decision, even if they could have knocked out the attacker, the victim would have either died from shock or bleeding. They were right to get off the bus and not annoy him, if they would've annoyed him more people could've been killed or taken hostage.

[JeVartan]

On a side note, Greyhound's business is gonna take a dive. I wonder if they'll implement new policies before boarding a a bus.


There have been several people each year that died while crossing the GO Train tracks. Do you see them do anything about it? Sadly, everyone looks at the "opportunity costs" before doing something.


I'm afraid things at Greyhound will continue to be the same. I highly doubt they are going to install metal detectors on every urban and rural Greyhound bus stop in Canada...or have some security person on every single bus.

[Peckerwood]

Here we go...

So why don't you head outside right now and ride around on a TTC bus all night with no weapon, I'm sure you'll have ample opportunity to defend someone. Be sure to sit in a crowded one too, tell me how it works out.
Maybe not TTC but I have done so on close to a dozen occasions, in Edmonton and Vancouver. Taken one gun away, and 6 knives...got cut on three incidents.

:)

Chance favours the bold
Cover/concealment... I guess you missed the "/" between the words, denoting a difference.
And you still didn't respond to my request for a definition...which means you either don't know, or are avoiding the revealment process through debatural dispersion.

Concealment isn't going to mean a damn if they know where you already are...and any medium cover can be defeated with enough rounds.

The only drivel I see is all this talk about how you Rambo-types would've jumped in to save the day, and how the rest of the passengers were displaying cowardice by not doing so...
Sensationalism at it's best

Helping others by stepping into the fray and taking down the attacker is hardly the same as laying waste to the bus with an M60 and 300 rounds wearing face paint and a bandanna.

Seriously, you are trying to enter a debate and sound like you know what you are talking about by using sensationalized terms to evoke an emotional response, so as to engage in distracting other people from using intellectual observance and thusly discovering your lack of experience in the matter.

Let the adults continue with this discussion...mmm k.
they did the right thing, they focused on the people who were still alive,
And I haven't called them "cowards" for doing so...nor would I ever.

If you are going to address those who have called others cowards then do so in a new post without placing it as a reply to my post, and thusly putting words into my mouth.
they didn't provoke the killer by intervening, and they ensured the killer didn't go anywhere until the proper authorities arrived (without sacrificing their own lives or the lives of others) despite witnessing a horrific act.
How could the killer be provoked any more than he already was...he was already engaged in the act of murder in front of numerous people. Any amount of resistance to his acts would not "encourage" him to kill that guy again.

Also the word use of "Proper authorities" is a means of demeaning the actions of those citizens that wish to actually enter into the fight and assist potential victims. It demeans their actions by suggesting the people cannot ever hold a moral right to defend themselves and only the Central Government can take on the duty of defending others.

An honestly produced paradoxical statement of mistrust and centralized power monopoly mongering.

It is paradoxical because in the assessment of others being slated for mistrust, it then assumes total calculated trust in other people that are clearly not being observed as mortal beings(citizens vs government workers).

Such deification of Authorities is a viral infestation of the mind...and certain politicians make clear wagers of their careers on such blind obedience and resultant voter patterns.

;)

[Bookpreviews]

wtf?? :confused:

bus terminals should have the same level of security as airports. this wouldn't happen if the guy went through a metal detector/body search prior to boarding the bus

sick sick sick

Yeah, I'm surprized at how slack the Greyjound service is.
You don't even need ID to buy a ticket.

I know many nightclubs have way more security than the bus service.
Metal detectors are not that expensive- you can get some prtable hand held ones, thats what they were using at my friends work.
Also if you went outside the bar or club- even if you were an employee, you had to have all your items searched again...and no jackets were allowed in the club as you could hide "something" in them.
I know that shounds like too much security for a club that did not even sell much alcohol, (was partly afterhours) but nothing ever happened there,
Now stuff happening on the streets outside...that's kinda different.

I take the Greyhound bus a lot.
I'm never going to fall asleep on the bus ever again:o

[bleeet]

What about white folks like Paul Bernardo or Clifford Olson or black guys as seen on Cops or AMW.com ?

Does any Chinese-Canadian here expect any backlash ? I doubt it, this is an isolated incident.
they may not epect it but that doesn't mean it won't happen

[nickia]

I'm glad that the cop didn't shoot him because now we can find out what exactly his motivation was. After that, we can rot to death:P

[nickia]

It's been 10+ years since I had to ride a greyhound for a 2 hour trip from Edmonton to Red Deer and back. People used to have knives, drink booze, smoke dope, etc. I can't imagine it's much better now.

The bus is the lowest common denominator of short and long range travel, except for hitchhiking or riding the rails. You have to expect the bottom of society in greater numbers riding with you.

I question if Greyhound has certain liabilities not protecting the passenger by letting the killer with the knife board the bus unchecked. A simple metal detector used at some high schools would have prevented this madness from being so gory...

I remember my economics teacher told us that he was robbed on a Greyhound bus 15 years ago. I thought it was only an isolated incident, but now, I swear that I will never take Greyhound.

[LonesomeDove]

where did you hear that he was eating the dead body? :confused:

Here is a reference to cannibalism, from CTV:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080731/Manitoba_bus_080731/20080731?hub=CanadaAM

The passengers said some "indignities" were perform on the body.

Clearly the attacker has some mental issues and will likely be found not guilty on reasons of insanity. His former employer thought there was something wrong with him.

Some people called the passengers cowards without realizing the situation. It was dark, at night time and some people were sleeping. By the time one of the passengers notice the attack, it was too late. The victim was dead. The fellow passengers did well in preventing a 2nd death.

[canabiz]

Does your source also know who killed Kennedy, because I'm dying to find out the truth.

I don't know if what CHINADeals is telling is true but the suspect seemed to have gone through some marital problems. I guess we will soon find out in the next couple of days. I imagine reporters and cameramen are buzzing around Edmonton right now to get more info from his family and acquaintances.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/story/4207400p-4799791c.html

[Uncle Cool]

Some people called the passengers cowards without realizing the situation. It was dark, at night time and some people were sleeping. By the time one of the passengers notice the attack, it was too late. The victim was dead. The fellow passengers did well in preventing a 2nd death.

EXACTLY RIGHT.

Reading about events on that Greyhound Bus in Manitoba is enough to make an ordinary person sick. So it's impossible to get inside the minds of passengers awakened by a sound more horrible than anything they had ever heard. We're told they bolted to the door, in one case tossing a toddler out of harm's way, in another almost running over a terrified senior in haste.

Everyone who has ever ridden a bus will ask themselves, "What would I have done? Would I have tried to stop the killer?"

Answering requires the ability to weigh the risks and benefits associated with intervening. That's easy enough in your living room on a Saturday morning, but this event occurred in the dead of night, with no warning whatsoever.

To expect ordinary people, under those circumstances, to be capable of calmly weighing the risks and benefits is to ask the impossible.

Even allowing for that, passengers made the right decision.

On the "benefit" side of the equation, media reports contend that by the time passengers knew what had happened, the victim had been stabbed several times, and there was blood spurting all over the bus.

He was well beyond saving and nothing could have been gained by rushing the attacker other than securing him for arrest – a feat that was accomplished by exiting and sealing the bus.

Which leads to the "risk" side of the equation.

Even in their stunned state, it was immediately obvious to other passengers that the attacker appeared not in a normal state of mind. Garnet Caton, a passenger close to the attack, reports:"He looked totally calm. "

Anyone standing in a fountain of blood, repeatedly thrusting a knife into someone's throat, and being totally calm while doing so, is not sane. Calm, reasoned intervention with one so deranged was going to have no effect. The only possible intervention would have been physical, leading undoubtedly to more pathos, more death.

Faced with almost no possibility of doing any real good, scared out of their minds, Greyhound passengers on a dark road outside the sleepy city of Brandon did exactly the right thing.

As a result, only one man died, and his life was not within their power to save. Thanks to their actions, the attacker is in jail.

They did what they could.

No one should expect more of anyone, even themselves, than that.

Ken Gallinger writes an ethics column for the Ideas section. Email him at

ethical@sympatico.ca


ALL of the people here saying they would have rushed the attacker or disarmed him or anything else are ONLY saying that because they were not there.

[canabiz]

they may not epect it but that doesn't mean it won't happen

Seriously what do you think will happen ? Do you think the public will scream at every yellow-skinned person to go back home and never come back here, do you think people will boycott Asian restaurants and business, do you think companies will not hire Oriental employees from this point on ?

There is a guy called Tom Metzger who posted some *controversial* comments on CBC.ca's comments section and about 25 people jumped on him after for sensationalizing this crime. That guy actually stated some very good facts about Vancouver but he certainly has very selective memory and fails to realize that psychos come from all sorts of backgrounds...and colours.

[bleeet]

Seriously what do you think will happen ? Do you think the public will scream at every yellow-skinned person to go back home and never come back here, do you think people will boycott Asian restaurants and business, do you think companies will not hire Oriental employees from this point on ?

There is a guy called Tom Metzger who posted some *controversial* comments on CBC.ca's comments section and about 25 people jumped on him after for sensationalizing this crime. That guy actually stated some very good facts about Vancouver but he certainly has very selective memory and fails to realize that psychos come from all sorts of backgrounds...and colours.nope not that much of an out cry (what you said would not happen to anyone of any background) but you would be foolish to think there wouldn't be any sort of it comments or actions of any sort that could happen.

I was in the U.S. while when the VT shooting happened and there was a lot of stuff that happened after that event. If this happened in the states....WOW

[CHINAdeals]

nope not that much of an out cry (what you said would not happen to anyone of any background) but you would be foolish to think there wouldn't be any sort of it comment and actions that will happen.

I was in the U.S. while when the VT shooting happened and there was a lot of stuff that happened after that event. If this happened in the states....WOW

sure there might be some other wacko trying to hurt 'asians' and pointing out this incident to justify it..but i doubt it'll be widespread if anything..

we are different from the states..or at least i'd like to think so...

and on the topic of 'why didnt' the bus do anything?'

gosh.. its anyones guess as to what YOU would do in that situation unless you were actually dead..and..clearly he was pretty like beat up by the time you realize anything happened.

police was even talking about how most ppl aren't able to defend themselves and engaging would probably make the situation worse

one guy was like green beret or something? some canadian forces veteran.but besides that everyone else just ran :X

[Valek]

http://naturalplane.blogspot.com/2008/08/police-hes-hacking-off-pieces-and.html

Apparently someone was scanning the Police channels when this was happening, listen/watch at own discretion. I can't verify if this is true, but seeing as how extreme the nature of this event was, I can understand the media censorship. And yeah, the video is in bad taste, it's better to just listen to the audio.

[Byrns]

Nobody is going to target Asians because of this. Get a grip people.

Every time an Asian commits a crime doesn't mean there will be mobs with pitchforks in Chinatown.

[board123]

This is an isolated incident and the killer just happened to be Asian. Weird stuff like this can happen with anyone from any background. I don't see why people would begin to treat Asians any different after this incident.

Honestly, when this story was first reported, did anyone suspect that the killer was a 40 year old Chinese man? I certainly didn't.

[V A N Q U I S H]

Honestly, when this story was first reported, did anyone suspect that the killer was a 40 year old Chinese man? I certainly didn't.

I definitely thought the same way. I really didn't think of it much since the utter shock of this event and how something like this could happen overshadowed the race part of things. However, this did remind me of the recent events of random stabbings in Asia.

[board123]

Finding out the ethnicity of the killer didn't change my perspective of this incident one bit. I couldn't care less if the killer was yellow, white, black, blue or whatever.

[UrbanPoet]

Nobody is going to target Asians because of this. Get a grip people.

Every time an Asian commits a crime doesn't mean there will be mobs with pitchforks in Chinatown.

I think they definitely will...
Check out this thread... Already people are making references to the Virginia Tech Massacre and saying things like "omg... asians..."

[Shaner]

I think they definitely will...
Check out this thread... Already people are making references to the Virginia Tech Massacre and saying things like "omg... asians..."

Stop fear mongering. Nobody is saying what you quoted, at least not in the way you are stating it. Stop with the BS, it's not appreciated by anyone.

Asians aren't going to be targeted in any way for this incident. People realize that this is an isolated incident involving a person who is sick in the head. This has nothing to do with race whatsoever!

What is it with RFD and turning everything into a racial matter? You people have something wrong with you.

[valeriey]

Omg, this is sickening. My prayers go to the family and friends of the victim.
Hopefully, someday they can get past this.

[JeVartan]

Stop fear mongering. Nobody is saying what you quoted, at least not in the way you are stating it. Stop with the BS, it's not appreciated by anyone.

Asians aren't going to be targeted in any way for this incident. People realize that this is an isolated incident involving a person who is sick in the head. This has nothing to do with race whatsoever!




That's so ridiculous and you are right about asking to stop with the BS. I think everyone who heard about this incident do not care what background the killer is. It doesn't change or take away any of the horror and shock.

However, ASIAN? That's such a general background to be stereotyping as Asians come in various colours (considering it's the largest continent with different ethnicities) so good luck to the bigots. :)

[Ebola]

What is it with RFD and turning everything into a racial matter? You people have something wrong with you.

Oh ya? Who do you mean, "you people"?

:lol:

[501]

i was at a party couple nights ago and one of the guys was telling this story... no one believed him... cause it sounded unreal. wow....this is bizarre and sick.

[Shaner]

Oh ya? Who do you mean, "you people"?

:lol:

Urban Poet mostly, but there's one or two more and they know who they are. It's one thing to wonder if this will create racial issues, but there's a couple people who are intentionally stirring the pot.

[perplexed_one]

I think they definitely will...
Check out this thread... Already people are making references to the Virginia Tech Massacre and saying things like "omg... asians..."

i don't think asians will be targeted; i think that overly quiet or introverted people (of every ethnicity) will be scrutinized. ppl would rather the predictable: criminals who look and live like low-lives, it's no surprise they are scared witless when an unassuming person is revealed as a ticking time-bombs (many of whom have no criminal records).

[Nikita]

While this guy was eating the body, why didn't the cops shoot him? He should have been dead, instead he is up for second degree murder so he could see the light of day very soon.

Because they can only shoot when lives are at risk, and at this point no lives were at risk. Police don't have the job of being judge, jury and executioner, those things are the perview of others in the justice system, and rightly so IMO.

Let's hope this happens. Imagine getting constantly stabbed by other prisoners but not enough to die. He heals and it happens again. Over and over... he needs to suffer.


Then I would expect someone would take it upon themselves to assassinate him and do society a favor.

Those able bodied men brought deserve to be criticized for their inaction. Seriously, looking at the pics now, the fcuktard is a slim 5'8 at most. Don't tell me 2-3 guys couldn't bring this bastard down. They all made him out to be over 6' tall and 200+ lbs. It sounds more they were trying to justify their swift exit from the bus.

When somebody on that bus actually tells us what the situation was like and can say from first hand knowledge that taking this guy down was doable, or would even have accomplished anything, your position (and others like you who have, from the safety of your computer call these peoople cowards), may mean something. You weren't there, you don't know the kind of panic that likely ensued, the fear and astonishment, shock etc, not to mention the actualy ability of anyone to intervene in the physical circumstances of the bus...so trash these people all you want, all the while claiming you would have been a hero where nobody else was (IYO)...you're judging the actions of these people in a mental vacuum. You have no idea what the scene was like so you have no idea of what you would do.

Remember, by the time anyone COULD have reacted, it was highly probable that it was too late for the victim anyway, why should anyone put their own lives at risk (and possibly others') when there was no possibility of saving the victim's life anyway.

That or they weren't able to give an accurate guesstimation considering they were wistnessing someone getting stabbed to death and decapitated. Just a thought, though.

But sure, you can pretend you'd be Steven Seagal in any given situation. :rolleyes:

Exactly...unless you were present and saw the situation, nobody is in any position to say who should have done what and when and how etc.

where did you hear that he was eating the dead body? :confused:

Police radio communications.:arrowd:

http://naturalplane.blogspot.com/2008/08/police-hes-hacking-off-pieces-and.html

This is an isolated incident and the killer just happened to be Asian. Weird stuff like this can happen with anyone from any background. I don't see why people would begin to treat Asians any different after this incident.

Honestly, when this story was first reported, did anyone suspect that the killer was a 40 year old Chinese man? I certainly didn't.

+1...race surely didn't enter my mind until of course it was raised right here, NOT to my surprise at all.

Stop fear mongering. Nobody is saying what you quoted, at least not in the way you are stating it. Stop with the BS, it's not appreciated by anyone.

Asians aren't going to be targeted in any way for this incident. People realize that this is an isolated incident involving a person who is sick in the head. This has nothing to do with race whatsoever!

What is it with RFD and turning everything into a racial matter? You people have something wrong with you.

+1 As I said earlier in this thread, can't we just have one crime without race being raised as an issue on this site....just once?

[konfusion666]

Oh ya? Who do you mean, "you people"?

:lol:

Urban Poet mostly, but there's one or two more and they know who they are. It's one thing to wonder if this will create racial issues, but there's a couple people who are intentionally stirring the pot.

Wow.

[monty613]

http://www.bitterasianmen.com/rants.html

[Peckerwood]

The raising of the issue of race and possible repercussions based on race doesn't do much to show trust of one's fellow man. The only people that would make race an issue would be those who are already in the process of making race a center piece of discussion.

Take one of my old neighbours for instance...the moment he heard about this attack he immediately said "we need a better immigration policy, to keep these f**kers out". And of course he said that before he even knew what race it was, which means he just automatically makes the assumption that all crimes are done by immigrants etc.

His comments are symptomatic of those who already have an agenda in their mind set out long before they ever hear of any circumstances. He uses the N word often too...but never in polite company from what I have seen. I usually relegate myself to countering his claims and reducing his points to mere shadows of their former selves using basic logic and simple reasoning.

He usually has no replies ;)

[Asad_A203]

I understand your point, however if people were able to handle the shock of the situation, you might be able to work with others to incapacitate the crazy man. If this guy had a knife, it's possible one of the people on board had one as well. The element of surprise can often define the whole encounter. There are so many ifs in play here.



You could just as easily say that if people reacted quickly, someone may have been saved. More ifs that enter into the equation.

I feel for the victims family. As far as I can tell, the maniac mutilated the body without conscience. I really hope that he didn't eat pieces of the guys body, as that would just ice the cake on the whole sanity aspect.

I'm sorry; but how many people do you know who carry rambo hunting knifes with them? I highly doubt most people carries knives around in Canada; I live in Winnipeg (aka all violent crimes capital of Canada) and I have rarely seen that. This guy is a lunatic. The victim was sleeping and the first person to notice (who ran and alerted the bus driver along with awaking alot of the sleeping passengers) SAVED alot more lives than attempting to unarm the guy. Being a hero does not always dictate having to pull the knife away; I am sure by the time this guy noticed the victim was already stabbed 8-10 times. It would be a very meager attempt to save his life and jeporadizing his own along with many others. It is a tragedy what happened to the victim but it is much more reassuring that nobody else was injured. By alerting everyone to get off the bus and trapping the idiot in the bus was probably the best plan.

[Nikita]

I'm sorry; but how many people do you know who carry rambo hunting knifes with them? I highly doubt most people carries knives around in Canada; I live in Winnipeg (aka all violent crimes capital of Canada) and I have rarely seen that. This guy is a lunatic. The victim was sleeping and the first person to notice (who ran and alerted the bus driver along with awaking alot of the sleeping passengers) SAVED alot more lives than attempting to unarm the guy. Being a hero does not always dictate having to pull the knife away; I am sure by the time this guy noticed the victim was already stabbed 8-10 times. It would be a very meager attempt to save his life and jeporadizing his own along with many others. It is a tragedy what happened to the victim but it is much more reassuring that nobody else was injured. By alerting everyone to get off the bus and trapping the idiot in the bus was probably the best plan.

Very well said!

[gretzky99]

I'm sorry; but how many people do you know who carry rambo hunting knifes with them? I highly doubt most people carries knives around in Canada; I live in Winnipeg (aka all violent crimes capital of Canada) and I have rarely seen that.

I thought there was a ruling passed by the Supreme Court of Canada that allowed Sikh's, as part of their religious beliefs, to carry ceremonial daggers in public. Even allowing for Sikh students to bring these swords into schools and classrooms.
Or has this changed?:|

[keross1ve]

I thought there was a ruling passed by the Supreme Court of Canada that allowed Sikh's, as part of their religious beliefs, to carry ceremonial daggers in public. Even allowing for Sikh students to bring these swords into schools and classrooms.
Or has this changed?:|

He said Rambo hunting knives, not harmless, duller than a pen, heavily sheathed, difficult to take out, and designed to be safe Kirpans.

Why do some people feel the need to bring in Kirpans whenever there is discussion of knives, religion, or civil rights?

[hamzanaeem002]

Dammit I am taking the greyhound neon to New York Tmrw!!!

[Peckerwood]

Where is this focus on "Rambo Hunting" knives coming from?

Not to mention the fact that there is an apparent irrational attempt to equate hunting with a mythic military figure noted only for spray and pray, gut and smut tactics...like somehow a hunter is one who prefers to slit the throats of poor helpless deer, after an invigorating 6 hr stalk on their defenseless prey.

Seriously people...drop the BS sensationalized terms, as they add nothing to the debate. You have no idea how ridiculous it sounds reading it.

As for the carrying of a knife, I know lots of people that do. Myself I carry a Kershaw Ken Onion Leek knife with my own modifications(tanto tip and a serrated edge), as well as a Leatherman multi-tool. My sisters also carry knives, so does my room mate, his ex gf, her mother, two of her friends that I am aware of.

It is more common than you think. Also the legal limit on blade length is 6 inches.

-------------------------

ZOMG...i can't believe I just posted that...we all must be a bunch of psychos in hiding...I should turn myself into the "Proper Authorities" at once

:rolleyes:

[gretzky99]

Why do some people feel the need to bring in Kirpans whenever there is discussion of knives, religion, or civil rights?

Why????
because Asad_A203 was discussing about Knives and Kirpans=Knives.


He said Rambo hunting knives, not harmless, duller than a pen, heavily sheathed, difficult to take out, and designed to be safe Kirpans.

does these Kirpans look harmless to you??
http://www.sikhnet.com/thegallery/gallery/d/750-3/KhalsaKirpans-1600.jpg
http://image.ec21.com/image/arms/oimg_020209132541/Holy_Sikh_kirpans.jpg
http://www.panthic.org/data/images/news/categories/cat_124/swissarmy_kirpan.jpg
http://www.khalsakirpans.com/photos/ProdKirpan.jpg

[1yellowdog]

Where is this focus on "Rambo Hunting" knives coming from?

Not to mention the fact that there is an apparent irrational attempt to equate hunting with a mythic military figure noted only for spray and pray, gut and smut tactics...like somehow a hunter is one who prefers to slit the throats of poor helpless deer, after an invigorating 6 hr stalk on their defenseless prey.

Seriously people...drop the BS sensationalized terms, as they add nothing to the debate. You have no idea how ridiculous it sounds reading it.

As for the carrying of a knife, I know lots of people that do. Myself I carry a Kershaw Ken Onion Leek knife with my own modifications(tanto tip and a serrated edge), as well as a Leatherman multi-tool. My sisters also carry knives, so does my room mate, his ex gf, her mother, two of her friends that I am aware of.

It is more common than you think. Also the legal limit on blade length is 6 inches.

-------------------------

ZOMG...i can't believe I just posted that...we all must be a bunch of psychos in hiding...I should turn myself into the "Proper Authorities" at once

:rolleyes:


City slickers don't generally carry knives. Hoods do or those who might run into hoods, but most people in the cities don't carry knives.
Perhaps in your province Peckerwood, you find it usefull. But if any ladies had a knife in their handbag it would be deemed a pretty scary sight by most observers in an Ontario urban area, for example.

Anyone who has issues with certain or all ethnic groups will use any excuse to back up their position, to make themselves appear more credible.
This awful tragedy goes way beyond race.
The fact that we are hearing more and more awful murders or murder suicides makes me think there are a lot of hurtin' people out there that are being ignored. There seems to be more pressures on us than in the past yet mental health and drug abuse issues are swept under the carpet like they don't exist. People on crack do heinous acts they don't even remember as do people who refuse to take their prescribed medications for certain psychiatric disorders. I'm thinking that society would benefit from providing more help in these areas even if it means mandatory rehab for drug addicts and more vigilent monitoring of psych patients. Not that it is likely to ever happen.

[Peckerwood]

I bet those Kirpans will jump out of their sheaths and randomly attack defenseless people all on their own initiative. Only dangerous knives can do that.

In fact...those look very much like Rambo knives...and Rambo knives are evil.

OMG...Rambo knives...in Canada...on our streets...eeevil

:rolleyes:

[Takada]

There is a guy called Tom Metzger who posted some *controversial* comments on CBC.ca's comments section and about 25 people jumped on him after for sensationalizing this crime. That guy actually stated some very good facts about Vancouver but he certainly has very selective memory and fails to realize that psychos come from all sorts of backgrounds...and colours.

Funny you mention that because a dozen or so more racists popped up in the CBC comments hating on Asians and even immigrants in general. What a sad world we live in.

[Peckerwood]

City slickers don't generally carry knives. Hoods do or those who might run into hoods, but most people in the cities don't carry knives.
Perhaps in your province Peckerwood, you find it usefull. But if any ladies had a knife in their handbag it would be deemed a pretty scary sight by most observers in an Ontario urban area, for example.
City slickers?

Funny, my sisters and family all live in a big city. Just about all of them carry a knife of some type.

When I am in town up here in the Yukon, I always carry a knife...and when I head south to bigger cities I find a greater need to carry one. The chance of myself being attacked or getting into a car accident up here is much less than it is down south.

[valeriey]

I bet those Kirpans will jump out of their sheaths and randomly attack defenseless people all on their own initiative. Only dangerous knives can do that.

In fact...those look very much like Rambo knives...and Rambo knives are evil.

OMG...Rambo knives...in Canada...on our streets...eeevil

:rolleyes:

Ummmmm, no. Rambo knives are not evil. People who use Rambo knives to kill/harm are evil.

Any way, this went off topic. It could have neen any weapon. If/when this person decided that he was going to kill someone he could have used anything as a weapon. IMO that makes him evil.

[hamzanaeem002]

A bit off topic but since im riding a greyhound tomorrow and I am still a young teen, I was wondering if anyone could tell me what the Greyhound Neon buses are like? Are there usually hobos and drug users on the bus? Also what should I be cautious of? And lastly if anybody is carrying a weapon of some sort won't they be questioned at the border? Thanks in advance.

[Peckerwood]

Ummmmm, no. Rambo knives are not evil. People who use Rambo knives to kill/harm are evil.

Any way, this went off topic. It could have neen any weapon. If/when this person decided that he was going to kill someone he could have used anything as a weapon. IMO that makes him evil.
Hi...I was being sarcastic. Obviously a mere object has no ability to be evil...use determines results

Cheers

:)

[Asad_A203]

I thought there was a ruling passed by the Supreme Court of Canada that allowed Sikh's, as part of their religious beliefs, to carry ceremonial daggers in public. Even allowing for Sikh students to bring these swords into schools and classrooms.
Or has this changed?:|

So you are suggesting that Sikhs (make up less than 0.5% of the population in Manitoba) AND the even smaller % of that 1/2 percent who do choose to carry Kirpans (undetermined number) now repersent that the majority of Manitobians? They also carry it for religious purposes and you may dispute that but they are not carrying it for the sole purpose of the actual intent of using it or in self defense. In Canada I do not see any reason to be carrying a knife or any weapon for self defence; rare circumstances like this come once every century and there is no need to throw everyone into a panic.

Even if there was a Sikh on the bus and who accidently also chose to wear a Kirpan; do you think the first that would run through his mind is that he does infact have a knife and can potentially kill the assaultant? I would imagine he would be just in panic as everyone else and attempt to flee the situation as quick as possible.

I also don't see what this has to do with the main discussion at hand. Are you suggesting if a Sikh person was on the bus he might have potentially stopped the situation or that Sikh people who chose to carry the Kirpan are a large majority of Canadians or that you are attempting to bring a racial element to a discussion that does not require one :|.

[JeVartan]

But if any ladies had a knife in their handbag it would be deemed a pretty scary sight by most observers in an Ontario urban area, for example.


A Swiss Army knife is pretty handy for a lady.

[canabiz]

Funny you mention that because a dozen or so more racists popped up in the CBC comments hating on Asians and even immigrants in general. What a sad world we live in.

They can hate all they want, this is a free country, everybody is free to express his/her opinions and I applaud the CBC to display everything, racially-charged comments and all.

I hope you don't waste any of your time to respond to those bigots.

[Asad_A203]

City slickers?

Funny, my sisters and family all live in a big city. Just about all of them carry a knife of some type.

When I am in town up here in the Yukon, I always carry a knife...and when I head south to bigger cities I find a greater need to carry one. The chance of myself being attacked or getting into a car accident up here is much less than it is down south.

I grew up in one of the lower income neighborhoods (aka North End) and went to high school located in the projects of Winnipeg and have never found a need to carry a weapon. Given Winnipeg's reputation being less than stellar for being a "nice" city (murder, car theft, and violent crime capital of Canada); I do not see the need for a weapon for the average citizen in most areas of Canada. Maybe people who expect violence to arise around them (ie. not random citizens who carry knives in the expectation of a random violent assault) might see the need to carry a weapon; but for the ordinary law abidding citizens it is just not necessary.

[Peckerwood]

I grew up in one of the lower income neighborhoods (aka North End) and went to high school located in the projects of Winnipeg and have never found a need to carry a weapon. Given Winnipeg's reputation being less than stellar for being a "nice" city (murder, car theft, and violent crime capital of Canada); I do not see the need for a weapon for the average citizen in most areas of Canada. Maybe people who expect violence to arise around them (ie. not random citizens who carry knives in the expectation of a random violent assault) might see the need to carry a weapon; but for the ordinary law abidding citizens it is just not necessary.
I was on the streets for four years and got stabbed 3 times and shot once. I saw others get stabbed, and have known even more to happen. Not everyone gets attacked, but your luck in a ghetto should not dictate to the rest of us(not saying you are dictating) as to whether or not we can protect ourselves, or choose to carry tools to increase our efficiency at self-defense.(Just the same as my experience would never be assumed to force everyone to have to carry a knife or other tool...to each their own)

:)

[Dustbunny]

Anyone who has issues with certain or all ethnic groups will use any excuse to back up their position, to make themselves appear more credible.
This awful tragedy goes way beyond race.
The fact that we are hearing more and more awful murders or murder suicides makes me think there are a lot of hurtin' people out there that are being ignored. There seems to be more pressures on us than in the past yet mental health and drug abuse issues are swept under the carpet like they don't exist. People on crack do heinous acts they don't even remember as do people who refuse to take their prescribed medications for certain psychiatric disorders. I'm thinking that society would benefit from providing more help in these areas even if it means mandatory rehab for drug addicts and more vigilent monitoring of psych patients. Not that it is likely to ever happen.

Bingo!

For those who keep making this about race (and it galls me to see how this forum continually goes racist and bigoted before any other rational thought, although I will withhold my comments on that), why aren't people talking about the real cause of this and many other unthinkable events. This guy was obviously mentally ill. Regardless of race, age, sex, you name it, when people are not getting treatment for emotional and mental illness, they are left to tough it out on their own and that means they are among the population, with you and me, whether stable and treated or not. Some have violent tendencies, some don't and some can snap beyond anyone's anticipation without much notice.

In this country, right now, there are people with bipolar or schizophrenia or paranoia, name your condition, and people are banging against walls fighting just to get their kids or mates or themselves diagnosed and treated. They are waiting for appointments, placements, effective drugs and in the meantime are told to go home and do the best they can because even if they are psychotic, there is no place for them.

It now takes years for some people just to get diagnosed and try the various treatments to see 'if' they will work and as of now the solutions are so few and far between it can be a very hopeless situation for many. It's no different for addicts. Effectively, there is no help for people in this country when it comes to the sheer numbers who would love to access help. Those who were once assumed to be placed in hospitals are now on waiting lists or released when someone else needs the room. It's widespread and chronic and to have this sidetracked to being racial or anything else is missing the point entirely. I'll put money on this being an issue where this guy was unable to get help or falling through the cracks or some other lame excuse which would not exist if we only had a health care system that actually worked in this respect.

Right now there are thousands of unstable people on our streets with no support, no help, no way to stop themselves or be stopped. The families of these folks are at wit's end worrying and trying to get help but there is almost none available. That's what you should be getting upset about and questioning.

Raising money for cancer or AIDS or heart disease is cool, but how many are out there giving mental illness a voice? How many people here have complained about the homeless, the addicts, crimes like this and yet no one is getting to the source which is a health care system and a general public that just isn't dealing with mental illness and addictions? Where is the push for research for meds that work and don't incapacitate the sufferer so badly they can't even speak? Where is the push to get our health care system address these people?

As for the comments that have more testosterone than brains thinking someone should have just overpowered the guy, get serious. Human nature is to first go into a mental freeze in a crisis, shock situation. That's why police, armed forces, etc. are all well trained and go over things over and over and over again so they can snap to action in almost auto pilot mode. That's why most people often have a moment of blank stunned inaction while hopefully someone gets them moving (as happened here when the other passengers thought quickly enough to get people moving out of the bus). This wasn't a 'oh we're in trouble, let's attack' it was a sudden, violent attack where one would never have been expected and in a matter of seconds I bet they had people bailing out of that bus which was at it should have been.

It's also folly to talk about knives. Would one have helped the victim, no. It would have probably been found where he stored it in his pocket. Would one have stopped the attacker? Not likely since in his head space and the size of his knife would have out trumped anyone else by miles. He had everything working in his favour and there was no stopping him at that point with a 3" or 6" blade wielded by someone who was in shock. Maybe a gun? Sure, someone in shock without training is going to pull that one off successfully without harming anyone else. Not likely.

[Peckerwood]

As for the comments that have more testosterone than brains thinking someone should have just overpowered the guy, get serious.
Some of us are serious and speak from experience.

As for "testosterone", try attacking one of my sisters and see how far you get. ;)

Not to mention the fact that the mentioning of "testosterone" is a sexist remark in my opinion
Human nature is to first go into a mental freeze in a crisis, shock situation.
Spoken by someone who knows nothing about what they say. Human Nature? LOL

Reaction is determined purely by experience and by instinct programming. The majority of people are generally raised in a very pacifist world where they never see aggression or active violence...hence their instinctive responses are based decisively on those ingrained experiences.

It has nothing to do with "Human Nature"
That's why police, armed forces, etc. are all well trained and go over things over and over and over again so they can snap to action in almost auto pilot mode.
Exactly...training reprograms the instinct response of the parasympathetic nerve. Considering that Police and Military are PEOPLE...why on earth would it be any different for any other PEOPLE.

Basic training principles can go a long way to reforming the "Oh Sh|t" syndrome into something different and useful

That's why most people often have a moment of blank stunned inaction while hopefully someone gets them moving (as happened here when the other passengers thought quickly enough to get people moving out of the bus).
See above
This wasn't a 'oh we're in trouble, let's attack' it was a sudden, violent attack where one would never have been expected and in a matter of seconds I bet they had people bailing out of that bus which was at it should have been.
Oh but wait...I thought it was "human nature" for everyone to sit there stunned...I guess those other individuals that got people off the bus must have all been military spec ops or police professionals that reacted instinctively with their decades of training.

:rolleyes:

Like I said...some have a plan in their mind well ahead of time, that has been ingrained into their instinct as a form of programming. Much the same way people who study first aid also have quick responses and do what they can to help...rather than just standing there stunned

More and more training overcomes hesitation and continues the reprogramming process.
It's also folly to talk about knives. Would one have helped the victim, no. It would have probably been found where he stored it in his pocket. Would one have stopped the attacker? Not likely since in his head space and the size of his knife would have out trumped anyone else by miles. He had everything working in his favour and there was no stopping him at that point with a 3" or 6" blade wielded by someone who was in shock.
The reason the above comment made no sense is simply because it isn't being procured from any measure of experience.

The factors that would inhibit you in the field would also inhibit the attacker. The close quarters offers numerous forms of protection against his advances just as it can hinder your own movements...but if effectively used then you can put the most strategic factors on your side in such a confrontation (sleeping of course is not one of those advantages obviously) His larger knife is more difficult to actually wield and therefore has more leverage that a defender can use to the disadvantage of the attacker's grip(some study in this subject would reveal this)

If you seriously believe that a bigger knife is better than I guess in those close quarters his carrying a sword would make him impervious to attack "by miles". :rolleyes:

Slashing is useless in a fight unless it is used to debilitate by cutting muscles or severing ligaments or tendons. Cutting for the purpose of bleeding is folly unless you can effectively hit a large artery and then are willing to wait the minutes required for a bleed out and then unconsciousness, all the while fending off more attacks from a slippery fighter.

Stabbing is generally the best way get damage done fast, and in turn is also the best way to create levering anchor points in limbs that are exposed or happen to be grabbing you (or against bone contacts such as the ribs or collar bones).

As for shock, if you are describing their "shocked look" then that can be retrained as even non-action is a type of reaction...it can be retrained into a specific action through experiential discovery

There is much more to the subject then just the fact that he has a blade. Having a knife doesn't make you a knife fighter(nor him) any more than driving a Ferrari makes you a formula one racing pro.
Maybe a gun? Sure, someone in shock without training is going to pull that one off successfully without harming anyone else. Not likely.
Case files?

Again, people can retrain their instinct to react in any way they choose to plan it out.

[Ebola]

Repetition and practice is key. Peckerwood is right, you can train/program yourself to react to threats in different ways.

All of our use of force instructors have stories in which an officer was involved in a firefight (being fired on first, suddenly), and none of the officers in those type of situations remember drawing their sidearm, firing the first couple rounds and moving to cover all at the same time when asked about it immediately after the incident. It's all muscle memory and trained response.

[Dustbunny]

As for "testosterone", try attacking one of my sisters and see how far you get. ;)

Not to mention the fact that the mentioning of "testosterone" is a sexist remark in my opinion

It's not sexist, it's about the hormone specifically and if you ask any woman who has taken or lost testosterone through their normal cycles or menopause you would know it's the hormone that incites things like physical violence/reaction when it increases in any body. It's those increasing amounts during and after puberty that are exactly what drives males to become more physically aggressive as well as more passive as they lose it over time. Why do you think menopausal women are so cranky and don't take any crap? They have more testosterone than estrogen by then and if you get in their way you may be seeing stars. My comment is absolutely directed at the hormone and not sexist since it is the direct cause of the thinking I am referring to.

Spoken by someone who knows nothing about what they say. Human Nature? LOL

Reaction is determined purely by experience and by instinct programming. The majority of people are generally raised in a very pacifist world where they never see aggression or active violence...hence their instinctive responses are based decisively on those ingrained experiences.

It has nothing to do with "Human Nature"

Exactly...training reprograms the instinct response of the parasympathetic nerve. Considering that Police and Military are PEOPLE...why on earth would it be any different for any other PEOPLE.

Basic training principles can go a long way to reforming the "Oh Sh|t" syndrome into something different and useful

No it has everything to do with human nature which is why it requires training and experience to overcome. I wish I could find the video of the psychologist who was on the news yesterday speaking about this and why it was unreasonable to expect any of the passengers to have reacted in any way other than the way they did.

You have to remember, these were average people, various ages, various education levels, various experiences who in no way had any reason to expect something like this to happen. How are they supposed to be mentally prepared for something which has never happened before?

They had no specific training and nor would the average person be expected to have it. Had it been a robbery or some other event which people may know to have happened before or been likely, they may have had a different response but this wasn't one of those times and it certainly doesn't seem there was even the opportunity to have stopped Tim McLean's death. I suspect the only thing that might have been stopped would have been the defiling of the body but at what cost to anyone trying to intervene?

If your argument is everyone should carry a weapon and be trained you may have some backers but I don't think you can expect everyone to buy in or have the expectation that in any group of average people you would have enough people thinking the same way to even be able to put cohesive defense together. It doesn't sound like they even had more than a few seconds to put it together so how would anyone coordinate that? This wasn't like 911 when the passengers had a few mintues to formulate a plan.

The other half of that argument though is having people who can think fast enough to analyze what the best options in any situation are before jumping in. My suspicions would be they took the best option anyway just figuring this guy was in the back of the bus (they said he had the victim by the bathroom which means he likely was only open on one side), his demeanor, and his state of mind, and the circumstances as they existed by the time there was a realization of what was happening. Whoever the folks were, they did get everyone out (including a toddler they said was very close tot he guy), got the bus immobilized, kept the guy contained, called authorities, and they did all that perfectly by all accounts we've heard. I call that some cool thinking under extreme shock and stress with probably the best outcome possible.

BTW, you can't scare someone like me with your sisters. You see I had a big brother who fought with me regularly and I too am one of those sisters who can take out pretty much anyone who gets in my way. The pay off has been that my left/right punches are on auto pilot even to this day and though I've only ever had to actually use them for protection once in my life I can tell you having that auto pilot does pay off. Would I carry a knife or go asking for trouble, not a chance if there is another way.

Repetition and practice is key. Peckerwood is right, you can train/program yourself to react to threats in different ways.

All of our use of force instructors have stories in which an officer was involved in a firefight (being fired on first, suddenly), and none of the officers in those type of situations remember drawing their sidearm, firing the first couple rounds and moving to cover all at the same time when asked about it immediately after the incident. It's all muscle memory and trained response.

Exactly, but who would expect the type of people who would be on a Greyhound to have that training? Who would expect anyone average person on the street to have it?

Seems to me a better solution is to address the issues that lead to anyone feeling the need to protect themselves to such an extent. That's a bigger issue, but for this one, and many others where the cause may be mental problems, seems to me to be more productive to deal with it before someone is killed or subjected to violence.

[Digo]

Ok this thread has become now an argument as to whether the passengers on the bus were a bunch of pansies for not saving the dude. I think some people watch too many action movies or something.

First of all, no one on the bus knew what was happening at the time. You guys have to understand that at night those buses have their lights off. I remember the only lights were people's cellphones when I rode on those buses during the nights. There were reading lights as well but most people would have them off during the middle of the night.

If this was in the middle of the day and the passengers knew what was going on, then there could be some argument made, but that wasn't the case.

I find it hard to believe all these people that post on here acting all tough. Sure you might want to do something, but what would you really do in the dark when you hear 'blood-curdling' screams and 2 guys seemingly fighting, one of them with a knife.

Note that we are given an account of what happened after the witnesses realized what was happening. If we had instead got the report right after the witnesses got off the bus (and didn't have time to put the pieces together), we would get different stories like the following:

"I woke up to 2 guys fighting so I got outta there. I didn't know what was gong on. I was fast asleep."
"I saw a guy attacking another guy but I have no idea why. I couldn't see clearly while bleary eyed and disoriented from sleeping."
"Everyone was running off the bus, and there were lots of screams so I got off too. I thought there was an accident"

Remember this is the post-911 world where you expect the worst when you see situations like this and don't have time to think.

[Nikita]

City slickers don't generally carry knives. Hoods do or those who might run into hoods, but most people in the cities don't carry knives.
Perhaps in your province Peckerwood, you find it usefull. But if any ladies had a knife in their handbag it would be deemed a pretty scary sight by most observers in an Ontario urban area, for example.



A Swiss Army knife is pretty handy for a lady.

City slicker female here. I have a mini swiss army knife attached to my key chain. An ex b/f of mine gave it to me once, it helps me find my house key very easily amoung the dozen or more keys on my keychain, but other than that I can say for sure it would never have occurred to me to pull it out and use it. Yep, I'm just one of those normal everyday folks who doesn't expect some random freaked out guy to suddenly have a psychotic break and start stabbing someone. Besides, even if it had occurred to me, I seriously doubt I would have been able to assist this victim in any way with this little thing considering (besides the obvious fact that it was likely too late for him within the first few seconds) I'm NOT trained to go into attack mode, my nature leans more toward doing what the one guy did, try to take care of others who were still saveable, try to maintain some semblance of calmness and direct others to get the hell out of this danger zone. Am I a coward? Some might think so, I don't. I'm a realist...I know that with my lack of training, trying to intervene in this situation likely would have only done more harm than good....to me and perhaps others.

[yao416]

Saw a video on Global, The victim's friend was talking about if he(Li) walks away... there will be 50 people jumping him....
Just wow....


Why Li kill the dude at first place? Maybe the victim was bugging him? harrassing him?


Edit: Yeah some of you say why not get 3-4 mens to take him down? stop acting tough, let's see you do it in this situation.

[valeriey]

Why Li kill the dude at first place? Maybe the victim was bugging him? harrassing him?

According to the articles, the victim had his head against the window and was sleeping.

[joshuaave]

Why Li kill the dude at first place? Maybe the victim was bugging him? harrassing him?

Trying to determine premeditation, do we know if there was any interaction between the two during that stop/smoke break prior to the incident? Or 100% random?

[Roseburger]

Latest news... (kind of related)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7539944.stm

[CCCC3333]

http://www.canada.com/globaltv/calgary/story.html?id=0f8de50d-fc48-4c51-ac2b-90a387a21cb2
...Yet, those who got to know Vince Weiguang Li well soon saw something else.

"He was kind of a lost soul. It was as if he was always looking for something," a member of a Winnipeg family that befriended Li - even having him over for Christmas dinner two years ago - told the Winnipeg Free Press on Saturday in an exclusive interview.
...
They say Li was troubled, in their opinion, but refused repeated offers to see a doctor and get help.

The family friend who works in the mental-health field said it was obvious Li was struggling.

"He needed help, but he just wouldn't get it," she said.
...

[st7860]

the perp ATE the guy.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/02/canada.bus.stabbing.ap/index.html
In the tape of radio transmissions, a Royal Canadian Mounted Police officer refers to the attacker as "Badger" and says he is armed with a knife and scissors and is "defiling the body at the front of the bus as we speak."

On the tape, which lasts about 80 seconds, officers continue to detail the attacker's movements until one reports, "Badger's at the back of the bus, hacking off pieces and eating it."

The RCMP described the tapes as "operational police communications and, as such, are not meant for public consumption." Police said permission had not been given to use the radio transmission, which was posted on LiveLeak.com and picked up by other Web sites.

[ashgotti]

Ok this thread has become now an argument as to whether the passengers on the bus were a bunch of pansies for not saving the dude. I think some people watch too many action movies or something.

First of all, no one on the bus knew what was happening at the time. You guys have to understand that at night those buses have their lights off. I remember the only lights were people's cellphones when I rode on those buses during the nights. There were reading lights as well but most people would have them off during the middle of the night.

If this was in the middle of the day and the passengers knew what was going on, then there could be some argument made, but that wasn't the case.

I find it hard to believe all these people that post on here acting all tough. Sure you might want to do something, but what would you really do in the dark when you hear 'blood-curdling' screams and 2 guys seemingly fighting, one of them with a knife.

Note that we are given an account of what happened after the witnesses realized what was happening. If we had instead got the report right after the witnesses got off the bus (and didn't have time to put the pieces together), we would get different stories like the following:

"I woke up to 2 guys fighting so I got outta there. I didn't know what was gong on. I was fast asleep."
"I saw a guy attacking another guy but I have no idea why. I couldn't see clearly while bleary eyed and disoriented from sleeping."
"Everyone was running off the bus, and there were lots of screams so I got off too. I thought there was an accident"

Remember this is the post-911 world where you expect the worst when you see situations like this and don't have time to think.

Finally..some sense. I'm so tired of hearing people calling the passengers cowards and putting blame on them. It's so easy to sit at home and say "they should have/they could have". Everyone should be EXTREMELY gratefully that they haven't had the "opportunity" to be a hero.

[JeVartan]

City slicker female here. I have a mini swiss army knife attached to my key chain. An ex b/f of mine gave it to me once, it helps me find my house key very easily amoung the dozen or more keys on my keychain, but other than that I can say for sure it would never have occurred to me to pull it out and use it. Yep, I'm just one of those normal everyday folks who doesn't expect some random freaked out guy to suddenly have a psychotic break and start stabbing someone. Besides, even if it had occurred to me, I seriously doubt I would have been able to assist this victim in any way with this little thing considering (besides the obvious fact that it was likely too late for him within the first few seconds) I'm NOT trained to go into attack mode, my nature leans more toward doing what the one guy did, try to take care of others who were still saveable, try to maintain some semblance of calmness and direct others to get the hell out of this danger zone. Am I a coward? Some might think so, I don't. I'm a realist...I know that with my lack of training, trying to intervene in this situation likely would have only done more harm than good....to me and perhaps others.



HUH? I wasn't suggesting a Swiss Army knife could be used on the attacker. That'd be foolish.

I was merely responding to the post that it's a scary sight to see women in Ontario carry knives in their handbags. A Swiss Army knife is a handy contraption and it's not scary to see it in a lady's handbag.

[keross1ve]

Why????
because Asad_A203 was discussing about Knives and Kirpans=Knives.


does these Kirpans look harmless to you??


LOL, you are gravely misinformed sir. The kirpans you showed are for enthusiasts and collectors.

Directly from the site you posted pics from:


My name is Jot Singh Khalsa. Since 1978, I’ve been creating unique edged tools and weapons for enthusiasts and collectorsall over the world.

Either way, man, those are some sweet kirpans:lol:.

The ones that are allowed to be carried by orthodox Sikhs in Canada are totally harmless. Like I said, they are usually duller than a pen and sheathed shut so as to prevent it from being taken out for actual use. On top of this, orthodox Sikhs are highly religious because they have made the ultimate commitment to their religion. And being a religion promoting peace, I highly doubt one would try to use one as a weapon in the first place. If the kirpans allowed to be worn in Canada were of any danger to the public, I would be the first to raise voice, and I am a Sikh, although not an amritdari, and don't carry a kirpan.

Also, blaming the knife is the wrong approach to the problem. A knife in the hands of a surgeon can save lives, while a knife in the hands of a street thug with no outlook on life, or in this case, a greatly disturbed man, can take them. We need to stop focusing on the smaller things and overlooking the big picture. It seems like the attacker had serious psychological issues. He could have used a multitude of weapons to do his dirty deed.

Anyway, this has gone off topic.


...and it galls me to see how this forum continually goes racist and bigoted before any other rational thought, although I will withhold my comments on that...

I have noticed that as well. This forum seems to bring race into situations where it isn't necessary more so than other places. The attacker in this situation could have been anybody, from any race, any religion, any country.

[heymikey]

my nature leans more toward doing what the one guy did, try to take care of others who were still saveable, try to maintain some semblance of calmness and direct others to get the hell out of this danger zone. Am I a coward?
No, you're not a coward. You're just a woman. No one expects a woman to break up a violent fight for the same reason why there is hardly any female bouncers. Nobody really knows what exactly happened inside unless you were there so judging them as cowards or even heroes is premature.

[Uncle Cool]

There really wasn't much anyone could do for the victim.

The rest did the right thing by getting off the bus.

They got off the bus and trapped the suspect for the professionals to deal with.

[Nikita]

Trying to determine premeditation, do we know if there was any interaction between the two during that stop/smoke break prior to the incident? Or 100% random?

Police have already determined premeditation...none...that's why they charged him with 2nd degree.

No, you're not a coward. You're just a woman. No one expects a woman to break up a violent fight for the same reason why there is hardly any female bouncers. Nobody really knows what exactly happened inside unless you were there so judging them as cowards or even heroes is premature.

Thanks....I think...lol. If your last sentence was directed to me, you'll see from my previous posts I'm not judging anybody. Or maybe I am when I said IMO everyone did everything right.

[Uncle Cool]

The charges could easily be upgraded to premeditation.

Not everyone is armed with a large hunting knife and few people riding greyhound buses usually have need of them. (until now anyway)

[Shaner]

The charges could easily be upgraded to premeditation.

Not everyone is armed with a large hunting knife and few people riding greyhound buses usually have need of them. (until now anyway)

Simply having a weapon doesn't = premeditation. Proving 1st degree murder is very difficult to do, which is why there are few cases where a guilty verdict is reached for that charge.

I would be surprised to see the charge upgraded to 1st degree, even if there is a suspicion that there was some element of premeditation.

[Uncle Cool]

Simply having a weapon doesn't = premeditation. Proving 1st degree murder is very difficult to do, which is why there are few cases where a guilty verdict is reached for that charge.

I would be surprised to see the charge upgraded to 1st degree, even if there is a suspicion that there was some element of premeditation.

If they trace his background and find out he's never been armed, they will question why he happened to be armed at the time of the incident.

Anyway, it's moot.

He's insane (that's my diagnosis) and for all anyone knows he was going to kill his wife or himself, or someone else.

Hopefully, he never gets to be free again.

[st7860]

lol he gets housed in a SPECIAL unit too.

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=7ccfe5d9-d9c5-4b8d-a104-bbbff914e874
Vince Li, the 40-year-old Edmonton man charged with second-degree murder in the repeated stabbing and beheading of 22-year-old Winnipegger Tim McLean aboard a Greyhound bus Wednesday, is on suicide watch at the Winnipeg Remand Centre.

Sources said Sunday that Li is being housed in a segregated unit on the 8th floor of the downtown building and is clothed in a special suicide suit.

As of Sunday afternoon, Li still has not spoken a word, and has not seen a doctor. He has nodded 'yes' or 'no' to some questions asked of him, sources said.


RCMP officers escort Vince Weiguang Li into a courthouse in Portage La Prairie, MB Friday.

When asked if he was suicidal, Li is said to have nodded 'yes.'

Sources said Li is to be watched by a minimum of five correctional officers if he needs to be transported from his cell. He is also to have his handcuffs and shackles thoroughly checked, as it's believed he's a flight risk.

Li is due to appear in court Tuesday, at which time a judge is expected to rule on the Crown's request to order him to undergo a psychiatric evaluation.

Li has refused to speak with a lawyer. He didn't utter a word during Friday's short court hearing, and did not make eye contact with anyone.

In an exclusive interview with the Free Press Saturday, a family friend said she felt Li was troubled, but had refused repeated offers to see a doctor and get help.

The family friend, who works in the mental-health field, said it was obvious Li was struggling.

"He needed help, but he just wouldn't get it," she said.

Li worked for six months as a custodian at the Grant Memorial Baptist Church in Winnipeg and was a member of the congregation.

Pastor Tom Castor said Li, a recent immigrant at the time, seemed happy to have a job and was committed to doing it well.

Castor said Li was quiet, and did not show any sign of anger issues or any other trouble before he quit in the spring of 2005. After this, he's believed to have taken a job as a forklift operator for Midland Foods in Winnipeg while his wife, Anna Li, worked as a waitress.

Castor's congregation is offering support to her -_the pastor says she is in shock and is afraid for her future.

The church and its staff are also offering condolences to the family of Tim McLean, the young man Li is accused of beheading in what witnesses called an unprovoked attack with a hunting knife at about 8:30 p.m. Wednesday about 20 kilometres east of Portage la Prairie.

[Dustbunny]

Just wondering if anyone knows what happens to people who are not landed immigrants, who have committed crimes but are found either unfit to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of insanity. Normally if a non Canadian is found guilty of a crime, they serve their time and are promptly deported. I wonder what happens when someone would normally be committed to treatment but not technically convicted ...would they be committed here for how ever long it takes, or just taken straight to the airport with a one way ticket?

The news tonight mentioned Li has only been here 4 years which seems to me means he isn't a Canadian citizen yet. That's why I am wondering how this might work into his fate.

[Beradon]

Just wondering if anyone knows what happens to people who are not landed immigrants, who have committed crimes but are found either unfit to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of insanity. Normally if a non Canadian is found guilty of a crime, they serve their time and are promptly deported. I wonder what happens when someone would normally be committed to treatment but not technically convicted ...would they be committed here for how ever long it takes, or just taken straight to the airport with a one way ticket?I hope he doesn't get deported. He might be let loose in his own country. I would rather he be kept into a maximum security prison but where he will be in contact with other dangerous inmates. A good outcome would be to have other inmates smash his face beyond recognition in return for their 15 minutes of fame.

[Dustbunny]

I hope he doesn't get deported. He might be let loose in his own country.

Well that is basically what I am wondering. Reality is they could ship him out (presuming he isn't actually convicted of a crime) and let someone else deal with it, which happens all the time when it comes to deporting 'undesirables'. But given the depth and horror of what he's done and what he might be capable of doing, I wonder how much we take on vs his country of origin if he isn't sentenced to actual jail time.

[canabiz]

Well that is basically what I am wondering. Reality is they could ship him out (presuming he isn't actually convicted of a crime) and let someone else deal with it, which happens all the time when it comes to deporting 'undesirables'. But given the depth and horror of what he's done and what he might be capable of doing, I wonder how much we take on vs his country of origin if he isn't sentenced to actual jail time.

Pardon me for being a tad callous but I would prefer China to deal with him rather than us and you know what that means, the firinq squad or the nooseman or whatever method China is using these days for execution.

I really really don't want to go off-topic but IMO, mental people who commit crime no longer deserve to live, they are already a burden on our society to begin with, for them to commit criminal acts and to live and have treatment off my tax dollars, I got issues with that.

[perplexed_one]

On an eerily similar note, a Greek man beheaded his girlfriend and her dog and then paraded her head in his village before throwing it at a cop and then jacking a police cruiser, running over two people before being apprehended. The psycho is in surgery after being shot at 5 times.

http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/472041

[1yellowdog]

Pardon me for being a tad callous but I would prefer China to deal with him rather than us and you know what that means, the firinq squad or the nooseman or whatever method China is using these days for execution.

I really really don't want to go off-topic but IMO, mental people who commit crime no longer deserve to live, they are already a burden on our society to begin with, for them to commit criminal acts and to live and have treatment off my tax dollars, I got issues with that.

For the most part I agree with you whole heartedly. If someone can be rehabilitated great but something this gruesome is beyond rehabilitation in my opinion. Not everyone can be rehabilitated but there are many, I would say the majority, in this country who don't want to admit that. So we store these freaks in prisons or hospitals and waste valuable tax dollars on them when the money could go to much worthy causes. Sure it would be easier to ship Li back to China but that ain't gonna happen. The bleeding hearted liberals of this country will want to try to help him you can be sure of that.
From what I have read I interpret it that he appears to know what he has done and knows he's in deep sh*t.
The Greek beheading just a few days later is bizarre, I hope there are no more of this kind of thing. It's sounding like a plot to a Dean Koontz novel.

[Uncle Cool]

I have no problem with Capital Punishment for people that commit crimes and know what they did was wrong. pedophiles, murderers, rapists, etc...

Killing people that commit crimes because of mental illness is killing people that did things they did not know they were doing was wrong. Locking them up for the rest of their lives in an asylum is appropriate. Letting them out and depending on them to take pills to keep themselves from committing crimes is unacceptable.

[AcidBomber]

On an eerily similar note, a Greek man beheaded his girlfriend and her dog and then paraded her head in his village before throwing it at a cop and then jacking a police cruiser, running over two people before being apprehended. The psycho is in surgery after being shot at 5 times.

http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/472041

Wow... :|

[CSK'sMom]

Just wondering if anyone knows what happens to people who are not landed immigrants, who have committed crimes but are found either unfit to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of insanity. Normally if a non Canadian is found guilty of a crime, they serve their time and are promptly deported. I wonder what happens when someone would normally be committed to treatment but not technically convicted ...would they be committed here for how ever long it takes, or just taken straight to the airport with a one way ticket?

The news tonight mentioned Li has only been here 4 years which seems to me means he isn't a Canadian citizen yet. That's why I am wondering how this might work into his fate.


Dustbunny, to begin with there is no such thing in Canada as "not guilty by reason of insanity". In Canada we have what is called "not criminally responsible" or NCR for short. It's a conviction, period. The other thing is that technically, they are not committed to treatment. If found NCR and sent to a locked menatal health facility the inmates can refuse treatment and medication. Under our Charter of Rights they cannot be forced to take medication or recieve treatment. But with that said, it's in their best interests to do do so obviously. They are evaluated by the board of doctors at least once a year to determine if they are suitable for release.

Now on to this particular case, from my understanding of NCR and immigration laws if he is convicted NCR he will be sent to a locked facility. If, and that's a big if he's ever deemed appropriate for release the gov't will then begin deportation action against him.... Non-citizens who commit crimes and are convicted will always be required to serve their sentences before deportation action begins.

[CSAgent]

On an eerily similar note, a Greek man beheaded his girlfriend and her dog and then paraded her head in his village before throwing it at a cop and then jacking a police cruiser, running over two people before being apprehended. The psycho is in surgery after being shot at 5 times.

http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/472041

Did Shamylalaladingdong's film reached reality?? "The Happening" that caused ppl to go psycho is finally 'happening' to us?

Wow...just wow... :|

[CSK'sMom]

Simply having a weapon doesn't = premeditation. Proving 1st degree murder is very difficult to do, which is why there are few cases where a guilty verdict is reached for that charge.

I would be surprised to see the charge upgraded to 1st degree, even if there is a suspicion that there was some element of premeditation.

I'll also add to Shaner's post that in my own personal experience the Crown Attorney's will more often than not take a plea to 2nd degree to save the cost of a trial, etc. In our case even though a preliminary hearing upheld the 1st degree murder charge the CA opted to craft and accept a plea to 2nd degree.

[Digo]

From that Star article about the greek incident:
"As the police fired at Arvanitis, a stray bullet hit a woman bystander, injuring her slightly, police said."

Look, even trained cops couldn't safely bring down an unarmed psycho. So why do some people on here think a couple of sleepy/weary civilians could have brought down that psycho on a bus.

It took 5 bullets against that greek psycho, with 1 hitting a bystander. The most dangerous person is someone who has nothing to loose. These psychos obviously fit that category well.

[Dustbunny]

Dustbunny, to begin with there is no such thing in Canada as "not guilty by reason of insanity". In Canada we have what is called "not criminally responsible" or NCR for short. It's a conviction, period.

Thanks for the explanation. Seems to me that would mean we'll be dealing with him until such time as he's deemed fit to release and then he'd be deported.

[gary_tor]

When is the guy gonna talk?

[Uncle Cool]

When is the guy gonna talk?

On September 17th at 3:42 am.

:cheesygri

[heymikey]

On an eerily similar note, a Greek man beheaded his girlfriend and her dog and then paraded her head in his village before throwing it at a cop and then jacking a police cruiser, running over two people before being apprehended. The psycho is in surgery after being shot at 5 times.

http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/472041

Don't forget this one as well:

Brazilian man decapitates British girlfriend (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/08/01/brazil.suitcase.ap/index.html)

So, there were 3 beheadings in a span of about 4 days.

[gary_tor]

Don't forget this one as well:

Brazilian man decapitates British girlfriend (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/08/01/brazil.suitcase.ap/index.html)

So, there were 3 beheadings in a span of about 4 days.

Well, in Iraq that happens too often....... :cry:

[JeVartan]

Dustbunny, to begin with there is no such thing in Canada as "not guilty by reason of insanity". In Canada we have what is called "not criminally responsible" or NCR for short. It's a conviction, period. The other thing is that technically, they are not committed to treatment. If found NCR and sent to a locked menatal health facility the inmates can refuse treatment and medication. Under our Charter of Rights they cannot be forced to take medication or recieve treatment. But with that said, it's in their best interests to do do so obviously. They are evaluated by the board of doctors at least once a year to determine if they are suitable for release.

Now on to this particular case, from my understanding of NCR and immigration laws if he is convicted NCR he will be sent to a locked facility. If, and that's a big if he's ever deemed appropriate for release the gov't will then begin deportation action against him.... Non-citizens who commit crimes and are convicted will always be required to serve their sentences before deportation action begins.




If NCR is deemed suitable for release, where are they released to?

[WontonTiger]

It is people like YOU who make our streets unsafe and crappy.. WTH are you doing with a 3inch blade in your bag walking around the streets? Do you how unsafe and stupid that is?

Do us all a favor.. leave your rambo mentality and try to behave and act as a responsible human being in a normal and calm society where you don't carry a bag with a knife in it.

You should read the context of a post before throwing your uneducated opinion in the mix. Why don't you explain why things are unsafe because of me?

If you read further, you'd see that I clarified the knife comment. It's a travel/camping knife.

I think people like you make the world unsafe. Take some responsibility for yourself and for things that happen around you.

[CSK'sMom]

If NCR is deemed suitable for release, where are they released to?

It was explained to us that when a person who has been deemed suitable for release after a NCR conviction they are treated the same as any prisoner that has served their full sentence. So, in a nutshell, think Karla Homolka. There is no supervision of any kind, it's up to that prisoner if they continue taking meds if they have been on them or continue with any other treatment. If the prisoner so chooses they may be able to transition to a half way type house before full release though.

[WontonTiger]

Where is this focus on "Rambo Hunting" knives coming from?

Not to mention the fact that there is an apparent irrational attempt to equate hunting with a mythic military figure noted only for spray and pray, gut and smut tactics...like somehow a hunter is one who prefers to slit the throats of poor helpless deer, after an invigorating 6 hr stalk on their defenseless prey.

Seriously people...drop the BS sensationalized terms, as they add nothing to the debate. You have no idea how ridiculous it sounds reading it.

As for the carrying of a knife, I know lots of people that do. Myself I carry a Kershaw Ken Onion Leek knife with my own modifications(tanto tip and a serrated edge), as well as a Leatherman multi-tool. My sisters also carry knives, so does my room mate, his ex gf, her mother, two of her friends that I am aware of.

It is more common than you think. Also the legal limit on blade length is 6 inches.

-------------------------

ZOMG...i can't believe I just posted that...we all must be a bunch of psychos in hiding...I should turn myself into the "Proper Authorities" at once

:rolleyes:

LOL

Seriously though... I've been referred to as Rambo, Steven Seagal, a Superhero, Batman, etc.

Using sensationalized names such as these just further moves this off topic, and makes people who don't want to have to think (aka people who watch this stuff) marginalize others.

Most of these posts have further reinforced my point. People don't want to do things for themselves. They believe that the magical government protectors will save them when needed. If life has shown me anything, it's rare that public defenders are around when you need them. If society were to deteriorate, these are the people who wouldn't have a chance.

There won't always be someone there to save you. Sometimes you actually have to take control of your own situation.

On a side note, when I was growing up, I didn't know many people who DIDN
T carry a knife (small utility knives, 3 inches or so in length). I still know many people who carry a knife in their suit pocket. These people understand that if anything did go down, fairies won't be there to whisk them to safety. Just because you arm yourself, does not equate with committing additional crimes.

[Nikita]

Some new facts, might not have been as random as first thougt.

http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/news/story.html?id=c6346a6e-151b-49f6-be98-8a04b47c588c

Accused chatted with victim's co-worker
Prior to decapitation, Vince Li sat with victim's colleague
Mike McIntyre, Winnipeg Free Press
Published: Tuesday, August 05, 2008

WINNIPEG - The seeds for Tim McLean's brutal murder on board a Greyhound bus last week may have been planted when the man accused of his murder, Vince Li, spent nearly an hour chatting up the victim's co-worker during their ride through western Manitoba, the Winnipeg Free Press has learned.

Li, 40, took a seat at the front of the bus beside a woman named Stacy after getting on board in Brandon. The pair chatted and were even seen smoking together during a rest stop.

As the bus resumed its ill-fated journey towards Winnipeg, Li suddenly moved to the back of the bus and sat beside McLean, who was listening to his headphones and apparently asleep.


Vince Li, the accused in last week's beheading on a Greyhound bus in Manitoba, took a seat at the front of the bus beside a woman who claimed to be the victim's coworker after getting on board in Brandon. The pair chatted and were even seen smoking together during a rest stop, the Winnipeg Free Press has learned.


Moments later, McLean was being repeatedly stabbed until he was decapitated. Horrified passengers fled the bus but managed to lock the killer inside the bus.

McLean's family and friends don't believe Li's change-of-seating was a coincidence. And they question why he was charged with second-degree murder and not first-degree murder, which indicates planning and premeditation.

"I have this unbelievably strong feeling that him sitting beside Stacy had something to do with this," McLean's former girlfriend, Alexandra Storey, told the Free Press in an exclusive interview Monday.

Tim and Stacy had become friends while working together at various western Canadian fairs through North American Midway Entertainment.

They were travelling together to Winnipeg - although seated separately in different areas of the bus - and had planned to meet up with a mutual friend in the city before all heading to British Columbia.

McLean's loved ones now desperately want to speak with Stacy - her last name is not known to them - to find out more about her dealings with Li on the bus.

They only know that she quickly returned to B.C. after McLean's killing, and presumably after an interview with police.

A call to North American Midway Entertainment seeking information about the woman wasn't returned on Monday.

Storey is also haunted by a series of text messages McLean sent to her as he made his way through Manitoba. Her ex-boyfriend - to whom she remained very close - mentioned that some people were doing ecstasy on the bus.

Some medical experts say the combination of a powerful stimulant drug such as ecstasy, combined with pre-existing mental health conditions, could trigger a violent episode.

Storey isn't buying it.

"Even if he was doing drugs, it wouldn't make him do something like that. There's no excuse," she said.

A Winnipeg family that had extensive dealings with Li during his two years spent living in the city told the Free Press on Saturday they believe he was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia. However, he refused to go see a doctor to be diagnosed or prescribed any medication, despite a strong push from the family and members of a local church where he attended and briefly worked as a janitor.

Li's erratic behaviour included making statements about always being watched and taking sudden, unexplained bus trips to various locales including The Pas and Toronto. He eventually left his wife, Anna, in 2006 and moved to Edmonton, where he began delivering newspapers and briefly worked at McDonald's. Anna recently left Winnipeg to join him in Alberta.

Li last delivered newspapers on July 28, according to his boss in Edmonton, Vincent Augert. On Tuesday, he "fell off the face of the earth," Augert said, which was unlike Li. Augert phoned him and a woman who identified herself as Li's wife called back, saying Li's disappearance wasn't planned.

"She said to me, 'I don't know where he is, he had to leave town, it was an emergency,'" Augert said. Li had told Augert three weeks ago that he had plans to go to Winnipeg for a job interview.

It's not officially known yet why Li was on the Greyhound headed for Winnipeg Wednesday. Li has no prior criminal record in Canada, according to RCMP.

Justice sources say his background in China will be examined closely as the case proceeds through the courts.

Storey told the Free Press they are disgusted by media reports that they believe paint the accused Li in a sympathetic light, regardless of any medical issues he may have.

"Everyone is talking about his background, how he went to church, was a good guy . . . He never gave Tim a chance," she said.

"Mental illness or not, you don't do that to another human being."

They also want police to closely examine Li's time in Canada for fear there could be other violent incidents that have yet to be uncovered.

McLean's family is currently in the planning stages for his funeral, which is expected to be a small, private affair despite the worldwide attention and condolences his killing has generated, she said.




© Winnipeg Free Press 2008

[Emancipated]

LOL

Seriously though... I've been referred to as Rambo, Steven Seagal, a Superhero, Batman, etc.

Using sensationalized names such as these just further moves this off topic, and makes people who don't want to have to think (aka people who watch this stuff) marginalize others.

Most of these posts have further reinforced my point. People don't want to do things for themselves. They believe that the magical government protectors will save them when needed. If life has shown me anything, it's rare that public defenders are around when you need them. If society were to deteriorate, these are the people who wouldn't have a chance.

There won't always be someone there to save you. Sometimes you actually have to take control of your own situation.

On a side note, when I was growing up, I didn't know many people who DIDN
T carry a knife (small utility knives, 3 inches or so in length). I still know many people who carry a knife in their suit pocket. These people understand that if anything did go down, fairies won't be there to whisk them to safety. Just because you arm yourself, does not equate with committing additional crimes.


So you carry a hunting/camping knife with you at all times? Why should you be allowed to have a "concealed weapon" when the rest of us cannot. If one person can carry it, then everyone else can and then you'll have anarchy when tempers flare.

[WontonTiger]

So you carry a hunting/camping knife with you at all times? Why should you be allowed to have a "concealed weapon" when the rest of us cannot. If one person can carry it, then everyone else can and then you'll have anarchy when tempers flare.

The blades I refer to are legal. Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm in Ontario), however I was always lead to believe that 3 inches is legal.

I keep a knife in my car, however I don't carry it on me "at all times." I like the outdoors, so I'm often camping, hiking, and walking. A utility knife is a good thing to have around.

I've been in a fist fight with the knife on me, and still never had the urge to use it (even when I lost the fight, brutally I might add). People carry things around that could be used as weapons. If you get creative enough, practically anything metal you carry, could be used as a weapon.

EDIT: I can't find the info online, however now that I think about it, I think the allowed blade length is actually longer than 3". If it bothers you, start carrying a knife as well.

[heymikey]

Tim and Stacy had become friends while working together at various western Canadian fairs through North American Midway Entertainment.

I wonder if he worked at the Calgary Stampede last month and if I happen to bump into him or talk to him while playing the midway games. Come to think of it, he does look familiar. Just saying.

[rock hard]

I keep a knife in my car, however I don't carry it on me "at all times." I like the outdoors, so I'm often camping, hiking, and walking. A utility knife is a good thing to have around.
.

I carry a knife in my car as well, more of a resuce knife as it has the window breaker and a seat belt cutter on it. I've only had to use it once so far.

[Peckerwood]

So you carry a hunting/camping knife with you at all times? Why should you be allowed to have a "concealed weapon" when the rest of us cannot. If one person can carry it, then everyone else can and then you'll have anarchy when tempers flare.
The definition is in what the intended use of the tool happens to be. If the intent is to use it as a weapon, and you stuff it into your pocket then it is a concealed weapon. But if it is just a small knife that you intend to use to cut a seatbelt in case you get into an accident...then it is just a tool.

Anarchy lol.

[CCCC3333]

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/story/4208280p-4800747c.html

The seeds for Tim McLean's brutal murder on board a Greyhound bus last week may have been planted when the accused killer, Vince Li, spent nearly an hour chatting up the victim's female co-worker during their ride through western Manitoba, the Free Press has learned.

Li, 40, took a seat at the front of the bus beside the woman after getting on board in Brandon. The pair chatted and were even seen smoking cigarettes together during a rest stop.

As the bus resumed its ill-fated journey towards Winnipeg, Li suddenly moved to the back of the bus and sat down beside McLean, who was listening to his headphones and apparently asleep.
....
"I have this unbelievably strong feeling that him sitting beside Stacy [, who was the victim's female co-worker,] had something to do with this," McLean's former girlfriend, Alexandra Storey, told the Free Press in an exclusive interview Monday.
...
They only know that [the victim's female co-worker] quickly returned to B.C. after McLean's killing, and presumably after an interview with police.

[Peckerwood]

From that Star article about the greek incident:
"As the police fired at Arvanitis, a stray bullet hit a woman bystander, injuring her slightly, police said."

Look, even trained cops couldn't safely bring down an unarmed psycho. So why do some people on here think a couple of sleepy/weary civilians could have brought down that psycho on a bus.

It took 5 bullets against that greek psycho, with 1 hitting a bystander. The most dangerous person is someone who has nothing to loose. These psychos obviously fit that category well.
Most civilians who prefer to actually own a gun for personal protection are adamant about training in the subject for proficiency. Generally they do way more training than your average beat cop, who will do their 2 week initial training run and then proficiency tests for accuracy and draw time once a year.

This is why out of incidents where citizens defend themselves with a gun, those that actually fire a shot, hits are on the order of 80+%

Compare that to the average miss ratio of the RCMP at 56%

In the Greek incident, how many shots were fired?...if those were the only shots fired I would be surprised; but a missed shot does not always mean an automatic hit on a bystander...unless you are talking close crowding which this bus certainly was.

It comes down to shot certainty and shot placement. If you are unsure of the shot then don't take it...simple. Most people when they hear shots fired either hit the ground or run...majority hit the ground and/or duck. That reduces the risk of accidental strikes...along with the reaffirmation of vocal directives to bystanders to ensure that they stay down.

Of course all of this bends on the assumption that the CCW holder is on the other side of the bus and not seated next to the incident...less guns in the hands of victims would increase the risk that the gun holder is more sparsely distributed and the chance that he/she is farther away from the incident. result...long shot...high probability of misses...possible side casualties.

[joshuaave]

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/story/4208280p-4800747c.html

Just an explanation of how psychotic people may think:

Li speaking to McLean's coworker earlier in the ride may have fueled his psychoses into believing McLean was a threat, while MDMA, often unpure, could have exacerbated Li's undiagnosed paranoid schizophrenia.
Ingested or not, Li may have also felt "trapped" in that bus while having psychotic thoughts.

When we interview patients with suspected mental illnesses in the E.R., they are always seated near the door so they can leave if they start to become agitated and need to get out. McLean may not have been an obstacle in this sense but Li's imagined adversary in the bubble, where self-preservation is not rooted in reality.

[Emancipated]

The blades I refer to are legal. Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm in Ontario), however I was always lead to believe that 3 inches is legal.

I keep a knife in my car, however I don't carry it on me "at all times." I like the outdoors, so I'm often camping, hiking, and walking. A utility knife is a good thing to have around.

I've been in a fist fight with the knife on me, and still never had the urge to use it (even when I lost the fight, brutally I might add). People carry things around that could be used as weapons. If you get creative enough, practically anything metal you carry, could be used as a weapon.

EDIT: I can't find the info online, however now that I think about it, I think the allowed blade length is actually longer than 3". If it bothers you, start carrying a knife as well.



The definition is in what the intended use of the tool happens to be. If the intent is to use it as a weapon, and you stuff it into your pocket then it is a concealed weapon. But if it is just a small knife that you intend to use to cut a seatbelt in case you get into an accident...then it is just a tool.

Anarchy lol.

Anarchy may have been a little dramatic, but as I said, if you end up using it in a confrontation and killing somoene, the police aren't going to see it as anything but.
I wasn't being deliberately engaging with you. That is, I know there are individuals who do carry pocket knives with the intent of using it as a utility rather than a weapon. My train of thought here is as you said, almost anything blunt could be used as a weapon and that's the point; and human nature being what it is and when we're confronted with a threatening situation, I don't think most of us would hesitate to use it out of self preservation.

[Peckerwood]

Anarchy may have been a little dramatic, but as I said, if you end up using it in a confrontation and killing somoene, the police aren't going to see it as anything but.
I wasn't being deliberately engaging with you. That is, I know there are individuals who do carry pocket knives with the intent of using it as a utility rather than a weapon. My train of thought here is as you said, almost anything blunt could be used as a weapon and that's the point; and human nature being what it is and when we're confronted with a threatening situation, I don't think most of us would hesitate to use it out of self preservation.
I agree with much of what you say...but consider that even in self defense the use of weapons is legal. The only stipulation being in fear of grievous bodily or death, or that one believes the fight cannot be avoided by other means.

The only point where it would be illegal to engage with a weapon would obviously be if it was unsolicited...but then that would also be assault.

[Uncle Cool]

and human nature being what it is and when we're confronted with a threatening situation, I don't think most of us would hesitate to use it out of self preservation.

And I indeed would if need be.

I carry a knife and have for 30 years. If the cops take it off me, I'll get another one.

[vee_one]

the guy was insane

[ghettogal]

What happened here is truly tragic and he should definitely get what he deserves...death sentence! But I do believe that it was out of an act of insanity. There are more updated articles on the alleged killer that claims that he is usually pretty normal but does suffer from schizophrenia and did not want any treatment.

I am however upset at the fact that in the article above it stated that someone had suggested that this might be an act of terrorism. I really hope ppl don't buy into that and does not have more hatred towards the chinese race re: sharon stone. What happened here was a tragedy and no one no matter what race they are did not want it to happen. Would they have said the same if the killer was white? Sorry, if this might be a lil' off topic but I just thought i give my 2 cents. I really hate to see people making this horrible incident worst by turning it into a racist issue as well.

[dairymandip]

wow they found in his pocket a plastic bag containing tim's nose lips and ears

disgusting

[Peckerwood]

wow they found in his pocket a plastic bag containing tim's nose lips and ears

disgusting
Just heard that on CityTV...that and Greyhound has just pulled their recent ads:

http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/media.canada.com/c28b49cb-824e-4590-8065-1f6a14db8c91/greyhound-ad-0805.jpg

http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2008/08/05/greyhound-rage-ad.html


Greyhound pulls 'bus rage' ads
Last Updated: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 | 11:48 AM ET Comments49Recommend91
CBC News

Greyhound Canada is removing all ads that were part of a campaign related to "bus rage" in the wake of last week's horrific attack against a Greyhound passenger travelling from Edmonton to Winnipeg.

Greyhound spokesperson Abby Wambaugh said Tuesday, "Greyhound knows how important it is to get it removed and is doing everything possible."

The slogan has appeared in print and on billboards across the country. But following the attack, the company notified every vendor and asked them to cease using it.

Tim McLean, 22, was repeatedly stabbed and then beheaded by another passenger aboard a Greyhound bus travelling through Manitoba on July 30. Witnesses said the attack was unprovoked.

Wambaugh said print inserts are no longer running, but she doesn't know exactly when outdoor signs — placed in areas where there is heavy commuter traffic — will come down. One billboard has already been taken down in Western Canada, but there is still one remaining in Toronto, which she said will be coming down soon.

Wambaugh said the majority of the ads should have been taken down before the attack because the campaign had ended.

Greyhound, a Dallas-based company, launched the multi-million dollar "bus rage" ad campaign in late 2007, targeting the 18 to 24 demographic.

North America's largest intercity bus company has been through some tough times since the 1990s as ridership fell and the company went through bankruptcy protection.

Under new ownership, Greyhound has poured $60 million into improving service since 2004. The makeover included refurbishing the bus fleet, upgrading terminals and spending millions on advertising.

[Ebola]

Cruel irony, that.

[BlackCrowe13]

They say they are having a psych test for this guy... UMMMM, JUST A HUNCH... He MAY be crazy!!!
lol, more of our tax dollars working hard!

I still say send him to and island with all hardcore criminals... with the rate society is going, it'll be a reality TV show soon enough...

Who'd ever think Running Man would be a real thing? Give it a few years, we will be suprised!
http://www.lazydork.com/movies/running.jpg

[peterk]

got my cross canada greyhound ticket from kijiji for $110...people are paranoid :confused:

[rockthecasbah]

Li sells computer

The day before McLean was murdered, Li was briefly seen in the small town of Erickson, Manitoba, where a 15-year-old boy said he bought a laptop computer from the man.

Darren Beatty told CTV Winnipeg Li was trying to sell the computer for $600, but Beatty talked him down to just $60. He also said the computer contained emails written in a Chinese language. Beatty used an Internet translator to read them, and one appeared to talk about the beauty of Canada, but also of apparent guilt Li felt for leaving his homeland years before.

Police have seized the computer as evidence.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080805/bus_killing_080805/20080805?hub=CTVNewsAt11

I wonder what the emails have to say about his suddenly going deranged. And $600 to $60??

[WontonTiger]

Just heard that on CityTV...that and Greyhound has just pulled their recent ads:

http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/media.canada.com/c28b49cb-824e-4590-8065-1f6a14db8c91/greyhound-ad-0805.jpg

http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2008/08/05/greyhound-rage-ad.html

Cruel irony, that.

+1

Wow!

[Uncle Cool]

Police have seized the computer as evidence.

--------------

I hope the cops gave the kid at least 60 bucks for the computer and a little extra for his trouble.

They can't just take it from him and tell him to get lost.

[George W. Bush]

Police have seized the computer as evidence.


They'll probably find a few games, music, some pr0n and an illegal version of XP on it.

[Nikita]

Police have seized the computer as evidence.

--------------

I hope the cops gave the kid at least 60 bucks for the computer and a little extra for his trouble.

They can't just take it from him and tell him to get lost.

Umm, yes they can. Sure, they'll return it to him someday. Someday after the trial and it's no longer needed for evidence. And LOL@ the cops actually giving people money for evidence...it just doesn't happen!

[Eyies]

More news on this, and surroundings that happened prior to the bus.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080806.BUS06/TPStory/National

[Peckerwood]

From Eyies link: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080806.BUS06/TPStory/National

MANITOBA SLAYING: 'I HAVE TO STAY ON THE BUS FOREVER'
'Please kill me,' accused begs in court
Judge orders psychiatric evaluation to see if man held in bus beheading is fit for trial

JOE FRIESEN

The Canadian Press

August 6, 2008

ERICKSON, MAN. -- Vince Li stood in a Manitoba courtroom yesterday pleading for it all to end.

"Please kill me," he said quietly, in a court packed with journalists and members of the victim's family.

Mr. Li, 40, is accused of stabbing and beheading 22-year-old Tim McLean, a complete stranger, who was sleeping next to him on a Greyhound bus bound for Winnipeg on July 30.

The judge ordered a psychiatric assessment to determine whether Mr. Li is fit to stand trial and whether he can be held criminally responsible for his actions. He has so far refused to speak to a lawyer.

Court was told Mr. Li spent four days in a Canadian psychiatric facility at some point, but the Crown is still trying to determine where and when. Crown lawyer Joyce Dalmyn said Mr. Li has not yet offered any explanation for what occurred aboard Greyhound bus 1170. "No explanation, no note, almost nothing verbal," Ms. Dalmyn said.

"There is nothing to indicate it's anything other than a random and unprovoked attack."

Meanwhile, new details have emerged about how Mr. Li spent the 24 hours before Mr. McLean was killed, including that he spent a night on a public bench and that he sold a laptop to a teenager that contained personal letters and photos, as well as a note that expressed feelings of guilt at leaving China, and confusion about life in Canada.

Mr. Li first stepped off the Greyhound bus from Edmonton in the tiny western Manitoba town of Erickson, population 456, just before 6 p.m. last Tuesday, July 29.

He strode across the street from the convenience store, which doubles as a bus depot, carrying five pieces of luggage under his arms. He was wearing small black sunglasses, a green shirt and a hat, and looked perfectly put together, like a businessman, said Darren Beatty, a 15-year-old student who works at a local gas station.

"The whole time I seen him he never took off his sunglasses," Mr. Beatty said.

He watched him sit down on a shaded wooden bench next to the Co-op grocery store on Main Street, arranging his bags around him and resting his arms as though he were sitting in an arm chair.

He didn't move for the next three hours.

Around 9 p.m., he walked into the M&M store, where David Dauphinais's husband Darren was working alone.

Mr. Li hung around for what felt like ages, making Darren extremely uncomfortable. He called his husband, saying he was afraid to walk home.

"He was really freaked out," David said. "He said there was something about this guy that made the hair on the back of his neck stand up.

"Darren's a treaty Indian. When Darren gets nervous about somebody, I listen."

David rushed back from a meeting, only to find that Mr. Li had left the store when another customer walked in.

That night neither could sleep, fretting about the mysterious stranger. David got out of bed at 3 a.m. and went down to check on his store. He saw Mr. Li sitting across the street, bolt upright on the bench, eyes wide open.

The following morning, Mr. Beatty was riding his bike when he saw a laptop on the curb. The screen was open and a hand-written sign said "$600 for sale, or best offer."

He circled on his bike, noted the brand-new Acer 4200, and approached Mr. Li.

He offered $100, then immediately lowered it to $50. Mr. Li contemplated for a moment.

"That's probably enough to get you a bus ticket," Mr. Beatty said. They settled on $60, plus a bag.

"I just thought he was a guy having a hard time," he said, adding he never felt threatened. "He seemed lost. As I was talking to him about [the laptop] he muttered something about America. He had a thick accent so it was hard to understand.

"He seemed really happy to get some money in his hand."

Mr. Beatty brought the computer home, and, after returning to get the password from Mr. Li (it was 7777), he unwittingly opened a window on the world of a man who would soon become an accused killer.

He found more than 20 résumés, each tailored to a specific job application. One was for a police service, one for McDonald's, one for Wal-Mart. He also found dozens of photos that he assumed were taken by Mr. Li, including several of a black military plane that he thought were taken by an amateur in mid-air. There were photos of a formal Chinese military parade, and others of Chinese models in clothes, and some of mountains in British Columbia.

A letter in Mandarin, translated with Google's translator, seemed to be addressed to someone in China. It said he was happy to be free, living under beautiful, free skies, but that he felt guilty for leaving China, and that everything in Canada was not as he expected, Mr. Beatty said.

Mr. Li, who recently worked as a newspaper deliveryman, immigrated to Canada in 2001 under the federal skilled worker program, although it's not known whether it was Mr. Li or his wife Anna who qualified. He's believed to be a Canadian citizen.

On the morning after the attack, Mr. Beatty got a call from the RCMP at work, saying an incident had occurred involving the man who sold him his laptop. An officer visited his home and seized the computer, saying he might get restitution but wasn't likely to get the laptop back.[Nikita]

"I asked the cop, "Did he use my money to buy a weapon? But he said, 'No, not that we know of,' " Mr. Beatty said.

Mr. Li returned to the M&M store around 1:30 p.m. David said he stood waiting in an alley behind the store for the next 4½ hours for the bus to arrive.

Just before 6 p.m., he boarded the Greyhound in Erickson, not Brandon as several witnesses reported, and sat down near the front. After a cigarette break in Brandon, he moved to the back and sat next to Mr. McLean.

Court was told yesterday that when he was arrested, Mr. Li was carrying a plastic bag containing a human nose, ear and part of a mouth, believed to be Mr. McLean's, and that police officers saw him hacking at and eating the corpse. During the ensuing standoff RCMP officers heard him say, "I have to stay on the bus forever."

Mr. Li's next court appearance is Sept. 8.

ADVERTISING GREYHOUND SCRAPS CAMPAIGN

Greyhound has scrapped an ad campaign that extolled the peaceful, worry-free upside of bus travel after the beheading of a passenger near Winnipeg.

The punch line of the ad was: "There's a reason you've never heard of 'bus rage.' "

Greyhound spokeswoman Abby Wambaugh said the company feels that the ad, launched last year, could be offensive and that it is no longer appropriate. She said the campaign was officially over before Tim McLean was beheaded last Wednesday, but that some ads are still up.

Ms. Wambaugh said Greyhound wants them to be removed as quickly as possible.

Vince Weiguang Li, 40, is charged with second-degree murder in connection with the attack.

The Canadian Press

[Peckerwood]

And just to make it even more bizarre than you thought it could possibly ever get.

:|:confused:

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=707624
Controversial U.S. church group stopped at border

Paul Gackle, Winnipeg Free Press
Published: Thursday, August 07, 2008

WINNIPEG -- Residents rallied Thursday to protect the family of a young man murdered on a Greyhound bus last week from a posse of radical religious protesters planning to portray Tim McLean's death as God's wrath.

Earlier this week, the Westboro Baptist Church - an organization branded as a hate group and infamous for protesting the funerals of slain U.S. soldiers - announced they would picket Mr. McLean's funeral to let Canadians know that his decapitation was God's response to Canadian policies enabling abortion, homosexuality and adultery.

But Shirley Phelps-Roper, daughter of church's founder, Fred Phelps, said a small group of protesters was stopped at the Canada-U.S. border on Thursday afternoon.

"They won't let us in, but we have a group that will cross in another spot," she said. "They'll have to strip search everyone who crosses that border or they won't know who we are. They'll have to see the WBC (Westboro Baptist Church) tattoo on our butts."

The resistance to the planned funeral protest started on Facebook yesterday morning when Jim Cotton, a resident of Winnipeg Beach, launched a page asking city residents to help protect Mr. McLean's funeral.

"We want to protect the family so they don't come out of the church service and see people shouting obscenities," said Mr. Cotton. "I've never met the McLean family. I've just been moved by the whole story."

Mr. Cotton was outraged and asked Winnipeg Facebookers to circle around the seven picketers tomorrow and pray for Mr. McLean's family.

By mid-afternoon Thursday, Mr. Cotton's page had over 100 friends. Rodney Taylor, an Ottawa resident, found the page and pitched in.

Mr. Taylor phoned the Prime Minister's Office, Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day's office and border services, asking them to keep the Westboro group out of the country. He also created his own Facebook page urging other offended Canadians to follow his lead.

"These people are callous, vicious and shouldn't be let into our country," he said. "We have freedom of speech, but they are inciting hate."

Mr. Taylor's plan worked. Winnipeg NDP MP Pat Martin said his office was flooded with phone calls yesterday from angry Winnipeggers.

"These people [from Westboro] are almost as crazy as the murderer," he said. "If they are here to disrupt the social order, that constitutes grounds to deny them entry. There is no redeeming virtue in the message they are bringing."

According to Mr. Martin, Mr. Day's office sent an alert to border patrol to "look out" for people with signs and pamphlets that fit the hateful messages that the church promotes and to keep them out of the country.

"In the opinion of his office, coming up here with the message they're articulating constitutes hate speech," said Mr. Martin.

Members of the Kansas-based fundamentalist sect were already planning to picket in Canada prior to last week's bus slaying. The group was scheduled to protest in Toronto Thursday night at the opening of playwright Alistair Newton's "The Pastor Phelps Project: a fundamentalist cabaret", which satirizes their leader's fervent anti-gay stance.

Members have also been planning to picket outside a performance of "The Laramie Project" - a play based on the real life murders of two homosexuals in the United States - in Red Deer, Alta., Friday night. Residents of Red Deer have been planning their own counter-protest.

In 1999, the Canadian government said it was powerless to prevent Mr. Phelps from entering the country when he was planning a protest in Ottawa over a Supreme Court ruling extending rights to gays and lesbians.

At that time, the government said the minister could only make exceptions at the border to grant people entry who might otherwise be denied, not deny people entry who would normally be admitted.

Mr. Phelps, however, was a no-show at the protest because he feared for his safety after a pro-gay rights group planned a counter-protest.

The Winnipeg Police Service said they were not planning to block the funeral protest if the group successfully crossed the border, but they were prepared to be on hand if necessary.

Winnipeg Free Press

[phomp]

Im all for free speech but that is ridiculous..

but of course If I was to go to that church and stand outside protesting their stupid religion... they would have a huge problem.

[KorruptioN]

And just to make it even more bizarre than you thought it could possibly ever get.

:|:confused:

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=707624

Yeah, that pisses me off to no end. A representative of the church was on the Edge 102.1 morning show and she went absolutely ballistic on the guys.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080807/funeral_protest_080807/20080807?hub=TopStories

[Shaner]

I hope each and every member of that church group that shows up gets assaulted while they are picketing.

Sorry, freedom of speech laws shouldn't extend this far. This should be criminal.

[lip1978]

I read that a local businessman bought that kid a replacement laptop.

[konfusion666]

I hope each and every member of that church group that shows up gets assaulted while they are picketing.

Sorry, freedom of speech laws shouldn't extend this far. This should be criminal.

I totally agree. BTW, if it's already been established that they ARE promoting "hate speech" can't the RCMP just arrest them (since hate speech is against the law)? Isn't that basically what happened to the Zundel fellow?

[ghettogal]

OMG Hasn't the family suffered enough? Honestly, has your mother taught you nothing, when you have nothing good to say, don't say it at all. If you really have those thoughts, keep them to yourselves! God what is this world coming to????

[YLSF]

I haven't been reading but was the kid that died even gay? I saw that play last night (Phelp's project). I recommend it.. Very interesting. Www.summerworks.ca for listing times.. It is in very high demand, tickets sold out in 5 minutes.

Anyway, back to this story... Guy asks for $600 and the guy offers $100 and then reduces it to $50!! What the heck, is this dude one of the low ballers on RFD..

[phomp]

I haven't been reading but was the kid that died even gay? I saw that play last night (Phelp's project). I recommend it.. Very interesting. Www.summerworks.ca for listing times.. It is in very high demand, tickets sold out in 5 minutes.

Anyway, back to this story... Guy asks for $600 and the guy offers $100 and then reduces it to $50!! What the heck, is this dude one of the low ballers on RFD..

No the kid was not a homosexual. The point of their protest is to say god did this because of Canada's policy on abortion, homosexuality.. etc.

[dre145]

i remember reading about this cult group they are really ****ed up.
You would think the US government would do something when they were protesting US solders during he funerals but no.... They dont care enough for their soldiers that die Or their families.

[LonesomeDove]

i remember reading about this cult group they are really ****ed up.
You would think the US government would do something when they were protesting US solders during he funerals but no.... They dont care enough for their soldiers that die Or their families.

It is something called freedom of speech enshrined in the US Constitution.
No matter how obnoxious, these protests are allowed. This is not China.

[mork]

... the kid goes by and sees "$600 or best offer" and gets it for $60?!? Wow! With such a low-ball this kid should honestly be thankful Li's psychotic episode didn't start right then.

[WontonTiger]

i remember reading about this cult group they are really ****ed up.
You would think the US government would do something when they were protesting US solders during he funerals but no.... They dont care enough for their soldiers that die Or their families.

They passed legislation that restricts the distance in which people may picket. It's as far as they can go aside from restricting free speech. It looks like all civilized nations will need to do something similar, in order to restrict these types of whack jobs.

I wouldn't lose any sleep if they were assaulted by the family/friends of the victim. Some people need to get some sense knocked into them... The only thing that scares me more than these types of religious fanatics, are people like Vincent Lee.

[Nettles]

You HAVE to listen to this. It's not just about the greyhound bus shooting but so much more. You'll understand it better though if you do a search on "manchurian candidates". This goes so much beyond this greyhound thing. It's from AM 640 (Toronto Radio)

http://www.mediafire.com/?wrxscupp4ud

[dre145]

It is something called freedom of speech enshrined in the US Constitution.
No matter how obnoxious, these protests are allowed. This is not China.

freedom or speech and spewing hatred is a little diffrent.
Not to mention going to the soldiers funeral and doing it there. When the family is grieving.

Go look them up, read about them, watch the documentaries then try to tell me about freedom of speech and how they have the right to do what they are doing.

Dont get me wrong, Its not like im pro war, pro bush or w/e. But come on.

[Grassgreen]

I would hate to think about what I would do if I were one of McLeans family members and I say these idiots protesting at the funeral.

It wouldn't be pretty

[gordholio]

Protestors should not be allowed within a mile of a funeral IMO.
It's not about free speech, it's about human decency.
This "church" is a about just getting media attention; they aren't really Christian at all.

[Nikita]

It is something called freedom of speech enshrined in the US Constitution.
No matter how obnoxious, these protests are allowed. This is not China.

Nor is this United States, it's Canada (duhh)....and we do have laws against hate speech and inciting hatred, inciting riots etc.

The a-hole protesters are coming from the U.S. but they are not accorded U.S. Consitutional rights while on Candian soil (duhhh again) but Canadian rights.

So no, it may not be allowed if police determine that they're actions break any of our laws. Which I hope and am quite certain they will do.

[Shaner]

Nor is this United States, it's Canada (duhh)....and we do have laws against hate speech and inciting hatred, inciting riots etc.

The a-hole protesters are coming from the U.S. but they are not accorded U.S. Consitutional rights while on Candian soil (duhhh again) but Canadian rights.

So no, it may not be allowed if police determine that they're actions break any of our laws. Which I hope and am quite certain they will do.

Wow, quite the attitude you have in your post considering you completely misread Lonesome's post.

Dre was originally talking about how the US government doesn't care about it's citizens because it allows this kind of protesting to occur. In response to that post, Lonesome dove pointed to the US constitution as the reason the US government doesn't forbid protesting at funerals.

[Nikita]

Wow, quite the attitude you have in your post considering you completely misread Lonesome's post.

Dre was originally talking about how the US government doesn't care about it's citizens because it allows this kind of protesting to occur. In response to that post, Lonesome dove pointed to the US constitution as the reason the US government doesn't forbid protesting at funerals.

Wow, quite the attitude you have for a simple misreading of a post. If you've never misread a post and commented it on your mis-reading of it, you must be totally insufferable.

[Shaner]

Wow, quite the attitude you have for a simple misreading of a post. If you've never misread a post and commented it on your mis-reading of it, you must be totally insufferable.

There wasn't any intended attitude in my post. I didn't make fun of you by using words like "duhh" or anything along those lines. I just simply pointed out that you had a lot of attitude towards the OP and it wasn't justified because you misread his post. If I stated something that isn't fact, by all means, I apologize.

[maebach]

I say they should have killed the guy. A man like that should not be allowed to live

[Peckerwood]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/north/story/2008/08/12/nwt-busattack.html

Bus slaying victim made 'ultimate sacrifice' by fighting attacker: N.W.T. passenger

A witness to the gruesome stabbing of a Winnipeg man aboard a Greyhound bus said a final struggle between the victim and his attacker may have saved the lives of other passengers.

Stephen Allison of Fort Smith, N.W.T., said he and his wife, Isabelle, were sitting in a row across the aisle from Tim McLean, 22, and his alleged attacker, Vincent Weiguang Li, 40, on the Greyhound bus travelling from Edmonton to Winnipeg on the evening of July 30.

McLean was stabbed to death, then beheaded, in the incident. Li, of Edmonton, is charged with second-degree murder, and has been ordered to undergo a psychiatric assessment.

Early witness accounts of the attack suggested that McLean was asleep with his headphones on when the attack began and didn't have a chance to put up much of a struggle before being killed.

But Allison said McLean fought for his life, struggling with Li in the aisle of the bus.

"Tim actually tried to get away," he told CBC News from Winnipeg, in an interview that ran Tuesday.

"He jumped over Mr. Li, and was at one point fighting back."

The 35 remaining passengers and the driver escaped from the bus. Li was arrested by the RCMP following a standoff lasting several hours.

Allison said McLean's final struggle made all the difference to him, his wife and the other passengers.

"If it wasn't for him, there could have been a lot more of us that never got off that bus," he said.

"He made the ultimate sacrifice so that everyone else could get off and everyone else could live."

The Allisons were travelling by bus from Fort Smith to visit family in Kenora, Ont., and to go to school in Winnipeg.

Stephen Allison said memories of the stabbing now keep them awake at night. He particularly recalls making eye contact with Li just moments before the incident began.

"Right when he pulled out the knife, he had looked at me first before leaning over to stab Tim," he said.

"So in that second, I thought, this is the end for me."

Allison said he has been in touch with some of the other passengers on the bus, as part of an effort to support each other and trying to cope with the horrific scene they witnessed that night.

[Peckerwood]

So apparently according to a near eye witness, Tim was alive after the first few stabs and actually put up a fight...and was not "already dead" as others have commented.

Hmm

[iluvmikeharris]

Did that scumbag Westboro Baptist group end up making an appearance at the funeral?

Edit: good, looks like they didn't:
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/08/12/national-post-editorial-board-in-praise-of-friends-of-tim-mclean.aspx

[valeriey]

No, they were stopped at the border.

[keanefan]

Early witness accounts of the attack suggested that McLean was asleep with his headphones on when the attack began and didn't have a chance to put up much of a struggle before being killed.

But Allison said McLean fought for his life, struggling with Li in the aisle of the bus.

"Tim actually tried to get away," he told CBC News from Winnipeg, in an interview that ran Tuesday.

"He jumped over Mr. Li, and was at one point fighting back."

The 35 remaining passengers and the driver escaped from the bus. Li was arrested by the RCMP following a standoff lasting several hours.

Usually during a fight, people just stand around and watch. Sometimes they join in the fight and attack the victim. In this case, people wimped out and fled. Usually people don't help the victim because they don't want to get involved (don't want to get hurt themselves).

:arrow:

[BlueMax]

And this is why I am always one of the first to board the bus and put my feet on both seats ...
Just wait until some guy starts breaking your legs because he was mad that day and you, being a jerkwad, pushed him over the edge.

[BlueMax]

So apparently according to a near eye witness, Tim was alive after the first few stabs and actually put up a fight...and was not "already dead" as others have commented.
Hmm
And the media just loves making martyrs and turning things around into "the man was a hero for fighting back" (aka. making some sort of attempts to save his own life while everyone flees around him.)


The burning question is this.... WHY??? What triggered this? Was the guy being a prick and hogging the armrest and slumping over on his shoulder, drooling and the guy finally lost it? Of course... who carries a knife like that around with them unless they have some premeditated idea to use it at some point. Was it truly random? That could have been anyone, including a parent with kids or something!

Was the movie "Zorro" that influential??? :confused: It simply goes beyond normal thinking.... any psycho/sociopaths wish to comment? ;)

[Peckerwood]

The burning question is this.... WHY??? What triggered this?
Except that psychopathic behaviour is not "triggered", rather it is already present and is simply on hold. Triggers are not necessarily environmental but rather internally stress related.

Was the guy being a prick and hogging the armrest and slumping over on his shoulder, drooling and the guy finally lost it?
Who cares? It still is not an excuse for the behaviour. The line that this type of reasoning follows is that we should perhaps be on our toes and terrified of what our day-to-day activities might have as an impact on the mentally unstable in our communities...vis-a-vis paranoia will destroy ya.

I really have no intent on walking the eggshell line...rather I will have plans on how to deal with the nutballs when they DO snap.

Of course... who carries a knife like that around with them unless they have some premeditated idea to use it at some point. Was it truly random? That could have been anyone, including a parent with kids or something!
Like that? All that assumes is that specific knives are only meant to be demonized for malicious intents. Newsflash: the intent isn't in the knife.
Was the movie "Zorro" that influential??? :confused: It simply goes beyond normal thinking.... any psycho/sociopaths wish to comment? ;)
A good friend of mine up here is schizophrenic, and when his episode occurred it was based on multiple factors both internal and external. Inability to cope with his work load lead to his own stress which in turn lead to the breakdown.

It had already happened twice before and nobody knew what specifically it was or how to deal with it. I was there at the third episode and dealt with it by distracting him so that the wife could get herself and the 2 year old out of the house and to a neighbour's...then disarming him of any of his weapons...and after such ensuring the RCMP had the best internal knowledge of the home and layout of the area(I was also in on the tactical meeting for the approach to the house and arrest of my friend)

To this day he still does not remember much of that night(I fill him in on the details of what I remember)...and we are still very good friends.

[iluvmikeharris]

No, they were stopped at the border.

One vehicle was, but their "spokesperson" had claimed that another had gotten through because they didn't have any identifying material with them (they said it was being shipped up).

In the end, at least the family had their ceremony with these iditots disturbing it.

[WontonTiger]

So apparently according to a near eye witness, Tim was alive after the first few stabs and actually put up a fight...and was not "already dead" as others have commented.

Hmm

Hmm is right...

I've been resisting saying it, however I think at this time (if this is true), it is called for...

COWARDS!

[D-Roc]

Hmm is right...

I've been resisting saying it, however I think at this time (if this is true), it is called for...

COWARDS!

You should have resisted as that was uncalled for.
Easy for you to say as you were not in their shoes.

[WontonTiger]

You should have resisted as that was uncalled for.
Easy for you to say as you were not in their shoes.

It's always easy to judge.

[D-Roc]

It's always easy to judge.

yes as you did when you called them cowards.

[15-20_God]

It's always easy to judge.

i thought about 1.5 weeks and 50 posts ago you said you didn't want to say anything more on the matter and that was you last post in this thread? i guess its not so easy to do in real life what you say you're going to do, is it?

[WontonTiger]

yes as you did when you called them cowards.

Yes...

i thought about 1.5 weeks and 50 posts ago you said you didn't want to say anything more on the matter and that was you last post in this thread? i guess its not so easy to do in real life what you say you're going to do, is it?

Touche...

I think I already apologized for breaking that vow, however...

I just couldn't keep my fingers crossed (mouth shut), Sepoku it is...

[cdngamerchic]

wtf?? :confused:

bus terminals should have the same level of security as airports. this wouldn't happen if the guy went through a metal detector/body search prior to boarding the bus

sick sick sick

This was truly a tragic, senseless incident and of course, we all hope it will never happen again - but who could have even predicted it would have happened in the first place and how do you stop it from happening again ?


With the Greyhound works, it is impossible for them to provide the same level of security as an airport. They are picking up people at all kinds of stops, some of them in very isolated areas. This guy could just have easily gone into any hospital in Canada, entered a random patients room and done exactly the same thing.

He could have gone into any community center, library, bookstore, etc ...and done the same thing. You can' t possibly anticipate or predict every possible type of violence and prevent it.

It is so sad that a young guy like that lost his life in such a horrible way. I can't even imagine what it was like for his family who would have first heard the details of the incident on the news just like the rest of us and then the devastation and shock when they found out the victim was their son, grandson, nephew, boyfriend etc. My thoughts and prayers go out to them.

[Peckerwood]

Enter the scammer :mad:

Link Here (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080819/mclean_fake_080819/20080819?hub=TopStories)

Facebook used in scam to profit from bus beheading

Updated Tue. Aug. 19 2008 7:10 PM ET

The Canadian Press

WINNIPEG -- Someone claiming to be a sister of the young man stabbed and beheaded on a Greyhound bus in Manitoba last month has been trying to use the horrific killing to collect money.

The unidentified person posted messages on the Facebook social-networking site last week, claiming to be Tim McLean's eldest sister, Amanda.

"I thank you all for your support of our family. It has been hard to deal with, but life must go on," one message read.

"If you would like to make a donation to help our family, we have set up a PayPal account to do so. Contact for more details."

The impostor also contacted Ron Schinners, who had set up a tribute page to McLean, with a story of financial hardship. The family was having a hard time paying for all the funeral expenses, Schinners was told via instant messaging, and had to quit jobs to help each other through the ordeal.

Schinners was so moved by the story, he turned control of his Facebook tribute page over to the person he believed was the victim's sister -- despite never having met her or talked to her on the phone.

"I was doing it out of the kindness of my heart, but I was also being deceived and I felt really stupid," Schinners said Tuesday from his home in Port Alberni, B.C.

The pleas for donations were on a handful of McLean tribute pages for a couple of days before people got suspicious. They pointed out the McLean family had already set up an account to accept donations at branches of TD-Canada Trust.

Schinners eventually heard from the real Amanda McLean. At the same time, someone reported the matter to the RCMP and the person posting as Amanda McLean was removed from Facebook, he said.

Manitoba RCMP would not confirm whether an investigation was underway, citing privacy laws.

McLean, a travelling carnival worker, was on his way home to Winnipeg from Edmonton on July 30 when he was attacked onboard the bus.

Vince Weiguang Li, 40, of Edmonton has been charged with second-degree murder. He is undergoing a psychiatric assessment and his next court date is set for Sept. 8.

[st7860]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/cbc/080902/canada/winnipeg_alguire_greyhound
A truck driver who scrambled to help Greyhound passengers who had witnessed a stabbing and decapitation in July aboard a bus on the Trans-Canada Highway near Portage la Prairie, Man., is criticizing the RCMP's response.

Speaking publicly for the first time, Christopher Alguire, a long-distance trucker, said in an interview with CBC News that he noticed trouble on the bus as he drove through the area west of Winnipeg on the evening of July 31, so he pulled over to see if he could help.


"You see somebody on the side of the highway, pulled over erratically in such a manner, you instantly know something is wrong, and it's just the nature of my personality, I'm always willing to stop and give a helping hand," he said from Morden, Man., Tuesday morning.


Bus passengers told him that a passenger on the bus had attacked and stabbed a man, later identified as 22-year-old Tim McLean, a Winnipeg man who had been working at a carnival in Edmonton. Both McLean and his attacker were still on the bus.


Alguire grabbed a snipe, a metre-long bar used to help secure loads on his truck, and immediately ran to the bus and assisted the bus driver, who was holding the vehicle's door closed.


"Basically I [got] everybody to a safe spot. They were pretty upset already, so I had them directed to the back of the bus, behind the cargo trailer, so they could no longer see what was happening inside," he said.


He told other passengers who wanted to help or were worried about their safety where they could find other tools in his truck to protect themselves, in case the suspect tried to exit the vehicle. Later, the bus driver boarded the bus, and Alguire followed.


"The bus driver had stepped onto the bus and then I had to get onto the bus and step in front of him ... because I took it into my own hands to protect all the people as best I could. That was my mission," he said.


He saw McLean's head being severed, then retreated off the bus and helped again hold the door shut until RCMP arrived.


Alguire said he is disturbed and angry that police waited so long before arresting the suspect, allowing more time for indignities to be done to McLean's body.


"One of the things I did not like is when I did have the passengers in behind the bus ... they could not see nothing. And I positioned them there for that reason," he said.


"Now after the decapitation and stuff, the one RCMP officer had the people move to the front of the second bus, so now they could stand on the highway, turn around and look into the monster windshields of this Greyhound bus to where the assailant and victim were.


"And now this ... character, he has an audience and it's like he's provoked to show them his work, and now all these innocent people have to see what this man has been doing."


McLean's mother told media last week that RCMP should have stormed the bus to save her son's body from further atrocities.


Alguire agreed.


"I told the cops a few different times to shoot him, because he has no reason in this world to live anymore," he said.


Alguire acknowledges that people hail his actions as heroic, but he shrugs off the distinction.


"I've had mentors in my life that have always shown me the way of battle, and it just came naturally to me," he said.

"We've got a very close family, we love each other very much and we'd do anything for each other to keep each other safe. It's a dangerous world out here and you know, we got to be prepared at all times to protect our loved ones."

Vince Weiguang Li, 40, is charged with second-degree murder in McLean's death. He has been ordered to undergo a psychiatric assessment to determine if he's fit to stand trial.

[kurtblak]

We don't kill people in canada because the rule of law provides the benefits we value so highly. It's easy for some to want to make snap judgments and just kill; but that sort of approach never does any overall good for society. Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture before you vent....but like they say, simple minds have hard times with complex thought.

[Peckerwood]

If you are thinking seriously complex thoughts while someone is bashing your skull in with a bat, or plunging a knife into your chest, then you are doing it wrong.

As for the sort of approach that "never does any overall good for society", considering that the term society refers to a group of individuals, what you are actually saying is that the good of one group of individuals should override the good of any other individuals. How can you justify letting violent rapists, and murderers wander the world unimpeded, as a good thing for any group of individuals?

This type of thinking you present is very similar to the type that marginalizes minorities.

[thelefteyeguy]

do RCMP even get a lot of action?

[st7860]

do RCMP even get a lot of action?

you're not referring to urbandictionary.com are you?

[kurtblak]

If you are thinking seriously complex thoughts while someone is bashing your skull in with a bat, or plunging a knife into your chest, then you are doing it wrong.

As for the sort of approach that "never does any overall good for society", considering that the term society refers to a group of individuals, what you are actually saying is that the good of one group of individuals should override the good of any other individuals. How can you justify letting violent rapists, and murderers wander the world unimpeded, as a good thing for any group of individuals?

This type of thinking you present is very similar to the type that marginalizes minorities.

You missed my point and wrote your own biases into it.

I am talking about being against vigilantism, those who do not believe in the charter of rights.

[Peckerwood]

You missed my point and wrote your own biases into it.

I am talking about being against vigilantism, those who do not believe in the charter of rights.
There was nothing in your post referring to vigilantism...and as such considering that it is technically legal to kill someone in self defense or in defense of others, your post was taken in that regard without adding any biases of my own into it.

As for the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, you have the Right to Security of the Person. What good is that Right if you cannot take it to it's peak in establishing a boundary between those who wish to eliminate your Right to be secure and yourself.

[kurtblak]

There was nothing in your post referring to vigilantism...and as such considering that it is technically legal to kill someone in self defense or in defense of others, your post was taken in that regard without adding any biases of my own into it.

As for the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, you have the Right to Security of the Person. What good is that Right if you cannot take it to it's peak in establishing a boundary between those who wish to eliminate your Right to be secure and yourself.

I was responding to the article about the trucker who said the RCMP should have just killed the guy after everyone was off the bus. The guy was no threat at that point and everyone was off the vehicle; he did not attack the cops and was just trying to get out at that point. He offered no resistance to the arrest. But the trucker still wanted the guy to be shot by the RCMP regardless.

"I told the cops a few different times to shoot him, because he has no reason in this world to live anymore," he said.

That is the definition of vigilantism.

[st7860]

There was nothing in your post referring to vigilantism...and as such considering that it is technically legal to kill someone in self defense or in defense of others, your post was taken in that regard without adding any biases of my own into it.

As for the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, you have the Right to Security of the Person. What good is that Right if you cannot take it to it's peak in establishing a boundary between those who wish to eliminate your Right to be secure and yourself.

i hereby and solemnly declare, +1

[kurtblak]

i hereby and solemnly declare, +1

You couldn't come up with an original idea if your life depended on it.

Peckerwood completely misread my post and went off disagreeing with something I never meant.

great one to support, st7860.

[Nikita]

I was responding to the article about the trucker who said the RCMP should have just killed the guy after everyone was off the bus. The guy was no threat at that point and everyone was off the vehicle; he did not attack the cops and was just trying to get out at that point. He offered no resistance to the arrest. But the trucker still wanted the guy to be shot by the RCMP regardless.



That is the definition of vigilantism.

+1

Whoever mentioned he should have been shot to prevent furher indignities to the body...know that that would result in criminal charges. You can only use self-defense in the protection of live people. Otherwise, yes, it's vigilantism...which of course is against the law. That would be in addition to other charges like murder (if he shot the guy to death), or atssault causing bodily harm, or simple assault....some form of assault or homicide case. When no live person is in imminent danger, you have no legal right to do harm to them.

[gretzky99]

+1

Whoever mentioned he should have been shot to prevent furher indignities to the body...know that that would result in criminal charges. You can only use self-defense in the protection of live people. Otherwise, yes, it's vigilantism...which of course is against the law. That would be in addition to other charges like murder (if he shot the guy to death), or atssault causing bodily harm, or simple assault....some form of assault or homicide case. When no live person is in imminent danger, you have no legal right to do harm to them.

After reading your response I couldn't help but notice your signature right underneath it :

"Some People Are Only Alive Because It's Illegal To Shoot Them"

[Peckerwood]

Peckerwood completely misread my post and went off disagreeing with something I never meant.
I read it exactly as it was written...otherwise next time try to quote a specific portion of text that you are commenting on to further reduce potential misreading of your intended post.(especially considering just how many posts are in this thread)

It is your responsibility to be clear in what you are referring to instead of being so ambiguous and vague.
You can only use self-defense in the protection of live people........When no live person is in imminent danger, you have no legal right to do harm to them.
And if you honestly have no knowledge that the man is already dead? One must then assume that the person is still alive and in need of direct assistance.

Otherwise I agree with you and Kurtblak on that point

[trixstar]

damnit.. why did i have to read this.. 1st day of school in like 6 hours.

[st7860]

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=3c2434cc-1311-476b-a672-d84ac4f7df80
'Under no circumstances should he walk free in public again'

Carol deDelley, mom of bus beheading victim Tim McLean, said dangerous criminals should be locked up forever or given death penalty

She's calling it "Tim's Law" - a tribute to her slain son in the form of proposed legislation that would dramatically change the way the most dangerous among us are dealt with.

No second chances. No glimmer of hope. No parole. And, in extreme cases like that of her slain son, Tim McLean, an eye for an eye.

"I believe that if you voluntarily take an innocent life like what was done here, you should forfeit your own," Carol deDelley told the Free Press during an extensive interview Thursday. She believes in cases where there is absolutely "no doubt" about guilt that a murderer should either be executed or, at the very least, given life with no chance of parole.


Carol deDelley talks about her son Tim McLean in Winnipeg, Manitoba on Thursday. McLean was allegedly stabbed and beheaded by Vincent Li on board a Greyhound bus near Portage La Prarie, Man. Sept. 21, 2008. Li has been declared fit to stand trial.

She bristles every time she thinks about how her son died on board a Greyhound bus in July, but says it's important the public doesn't forget just how sadistic the killing was.

McLean, 22, was asleep on the bus when he was attacked, stabbed to death, decapitated and mutilated.

"The only thing I'm grateful for is that my son was decapitated first. How sad is that? But at least his soul was gone at that point and he didn't suffer. What a thing to be grateful for," said deDelley.

She says it's outrageous her son's alleged killer will have the chance to taste freedom again and is angry there are no provisions in Canadian law that ensure the most dangerous criminals are guaranteed to be locked up forever or given the ultimate penalty, death. She wants that to change - and is calling for the same public support which surrounded the family following McLean's death.

"Under no circumstances do I ever want this man walking free in public again. This shouldn't be acceptable to anyone," said deDelley. "I don't want to see any other family to go through this again."

Vincent Li, 40, is charged with second-degree murder for the attack which occurred on the Trans-Canada Highway near Portage la Prairie and made headlines around the world. Earlier this week, lawyers said Li's mental health has improved and he is now fit to stand trial.

No date has been set, but he has agreed to waive his right to a preliminary hearing.

The trial is expected to consist of several medical experts testifying about his emotional state.

"I'm not happy with any of the potential outcomes," said deDelley.

Family members recently filed a wrongful-death lawsuit against several parties including Li, the federal government, Greyhound and the police. They said the fact officers didn't storm the bus when McLean's body was being defiled has only added to their suffering.

"So many parts of our system have failed," said deDelley.

She is wondering why the case hasn't become an political talking point during the election but hopes to take her plea to Ottawa in the future, including meeting with the federal justice minister.

Meanwhile, the family is still struggling to cope with their loss. Last Friday would have been McLean's 23rd birthday. They marked the event by dining on his favourite foods, including an ice cream cake he loved

[ghostryder]

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=3c2434cc-1311-476b-a672-d84ac4f7df80
She believes in cases where there is absolutely "no doubt" about guilt that a murderer should either be executed

Yes, when there is no doubt, people like David Milgaard, Guy Paul Morin, Steven Truscott, William Mullins-Johnson, Erin Walsh, James Driskell, Clayton Johnson, Donald Marshall, Richard McArthur, Gregory Parsons, Thomas Stophonow.....

[Shaner]

Yes, when there is no doubt, people like David Milgaard, Guy Paul Morin, Steven Truscott, William Mullins-Johnson, Erin Walsh, James Driskell, Clayton Johnson, Donald Marshall, Richard McArthur, Gregory Parsons, Thomas Stophonow.....

Those weren't cases where there was no doubt about the guilt of the accused.

[Nikita]

Yes, when there is no doubt, people like David Milgaard, Guy Paul Morin, Steven Truscott, William Mullins-Johnson, Erin Walsh, James Driskell, Clayton Johnson, Donald Marshall, Richard McArthur, Gregory Parsons, Thomas Stophonow.....

Those weren't cases where there was no doubt about the guilt of the accused.

Easy to say now, but at the time of their convictions there was no doubt in the minds of those that mattered, i.e. the system (Crown, judge, jury, police, etc.), in other words those that would have put all of those people to death had that option been available.

[ghostryder]

Those weren't cases where there was no doubt about the guilt of the accused.

20 years ago you couldn't find a single person who though Milgaard was innocent, except his mother.

I remember the news at the time of Morin's first trial and the outrage at his aquittal. He was supposed to be a "sure thing" too until DNA testing was able to clear him nearly a decade after the first trial. He was the first accused that I recall seeing wear a bullet proof vest when being escorted in and out of his first trial, police were very concerned about possible vigilante action.

Mullins was another "sure thing" at the time thanks to the expert testimony of "Dr" Charles Smith.

Everyone was so certain that Truscott was guilty he was supposed to be executed in 1959, the only reason his sentence was commuted was because of his age. It wasn't until the mid-60's with the publication of Isabel LeBourdais' book about the case did people start to question his guilt.


Hindsight is 20/20. Especially when it is decades later or new forensic technology is available. James Driskell was convicted in large part due to "victims hairs" found in his truck using visual hair analysis. DNA analysis has now shown that the hairs didn't belong to the victim. In fact, they were not even related to each other. Visual hair analysis has been pretty much discredited because of this case.


This article details concerns even with DNA matches:

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul/20/local/me-dna20

State crime lab analyst Kathryn Troyer was running tests on Arizona’s DNA database when she stumbled across two felons with remarkably similar genetic profiles.

The men matched at nine of the 13 locations on chromosomes, or loci, commonly used to distinguish people.

The FBI estimated the odds of unrelated people sharing those genetic markers to be as remote as 1 in 113 billion. But the mug shots of the two felons suggested that they were not related: One was black, the other white.

In the years after her 2001 discovery, Troyer found dozens of similar matches – each seeming to defy impossible odds.

As word spread, these findings by a little-known lab worker raised questions about the accuracy of the FBI’s DNA statistics and ignited a legal fight over whether the nation’s genetic databases ought to be opened to wider scrutiny.

The FBI laboratory, which administers the national DNA database system, tried to stop distribution of Troyer’s results and began an aggressive behind-the-scenes campaign to block similar searches elsewhere, even those ordered by courts, a Times investigation found.

At stake is the credibility of the compelling odds often cited in DNA cases, which can suggest an all but certain link between a suspect and a crime scene.

When DNA from such clues as blood or skin cells matches a suspect’s genetic profile, it can seal his fate with a jury, even in the absence of other evidence. As questions arise about the reliability of ballistic, bite-mark and even fingerprint analysis, genetic evidence has emerged as the forensic gold standard, often portrayed in courtrooms as unassailable.

But DNA “matches” are not always what they appear to be. Although a person’s genetic makeup is unique, his genetic profile – just a tiny sliver of the full genome – may not be. Siblings often share genetic markers at several locations, and even unrelated people can share some by coincidence.

No one knows precisely how rare DNA profiles are. The odds presented in court are the FBI’s best estimates....


DNA works great as an exclusionary tool, but it is only one piece of the puzzle in proving guilt.


The average life expectancy of a death row inmate in Texas is ~15 years by the time all appeals are done.

Milgaard spent 23 years in prison. If he had been convicted in Texas he would be dead. I find that a very sobering thought.

[st7860]

according to Canada's elite justice system, Mr Li might get off without jail time.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Accused+beheading+major+illness+psychiatrists/1290938/story.html
Doctors who have been working closely with murder suspect Vincent Li have concluded he shouldn't be held criminally responsible for last summer's beheading on board a Greyhound Bus because he was suffering a major mental illness at the time, the Winnipeg Free Press has learned.


Justice sources say two Winnipeg psychiatrists — one representing the Crown, the other for the defence — agree that Li should be sent to a hospital instead of a prison cell. Their findings will be presented at Li's Queen's Bench trial, which is set to begin March 2 in Winnipeg and slated to last just three days.


The only issue for the judge to decide is whether Li should be found culpable of a crime he admits to committing. The opinions of the two doctors will be the only evidence called regarding Li's mental state.


Sources say the Crown isn't directly consenting to a not criminally responsible finding but will make no argument to oppose Li's bid to be spared from the mandatory life sentence with no chance of parole for at least 10 years that comes with a second-degree murder conviction.


Instead, they will simply allow justice to take its course by putting their own medical expert on the stand, who will be followed immediately by the defence doctor.


"Given the high-profile nature of this case . . . we owe it to the public to let them hear the facts in person," said a justice source. Those facts will include extensive details about Li's medical history and what may have triggered the nightmarish attack, which made headlines around the world.


With no evidence to the contrary, it's expected the judge will adopt the recommendations of the doctors.


If he is found to be not criminally responsible, Li's file would be turned over to a Manitoba review board which would determine whether he has received sufficient medical treatment to be returned to the community. His case would be reviewed on a yearly basis and there is no minimum period he would have to serve in hospital before he would be eligible for release.


Lawyers have told the Free Press Li has responded to medical treatment since his arrest and has been co-operative with the doctors who are working with him.


Crown and defence lawyers have said they will present a lengthy agreed statement of facts during the trial, which include an admission from Li that he stabbed, decapitated and defiled 22-year-old Tim McLean as he slept on the Winnipeg-bound bus in late July on the Trans Canada Highway near Portage la Prairie, Man.


The unprovoked attack was witnessed by about three dozen passengers. None of them will be called to testify.


McLean's family have called for the creation of a new law which would ensure killers like Li are never given the chance for release — whether they are found not criminally responsible or not.


Carol deDelley, the victim's mother, told the Free Press last fall it's outrageous Li will have the chance to taste freedom again.


"Under no circumstances do I ever want this man walking free in public again. This shouldn't be acceptable to anyone," deDelley said.


Her big fear is that doctors will quickly rule Li can be managed in the community through medication.


"They can treat him, that's fine. But it has to be done in a locked facility for the rest of his days. Anything less than that is not justice," she said.


"I don't think he can be cured. Treated, yes. But not cured. He's unpredictably dangerous. I don't think he can be healed. And I don't want to take that chance."


Lawyers have agreed to move Li's case to Winnipeg because of ongoing security concerns at the courthouse in Portage la Prairie, about 84 kilometres west of the city. Li has received several death threats and his lawyer said there is no way to bring his client to court in Portage without exposing him to the public.


Justice sources told the Free Press on Friday that police have been working on a comprehensive security plan to ensure there are no incidents when Li appears for his trial. The downtown courthouse has an underground entrance that will allow Li to be brought to court without coming into contact with the public.


Li remains in custody at the Health Sciences Centre mental health unit, where he has been undergoing treatment and testing since his arrest.

[Strategy]

Wow... this is sad...

[CSK'sMom]

The thing to remember is that an NCR conviction does not mean that he will be released anytime soon. A panel of doctors will review his case yearly. There is no minimum or maximum time associated with the sentence though. Yes, technically he could be released in as little as a year, but on the flip side he could spend the rest of his life in a locked mental facility. And just to put that in perspective, a locked mental facility is a far worse place to be than a maximum security jail from what we were told when we were facing the possibility of a NCR defense. If the Crown is not challenging the NCR then their expert doctor agrees which actually makes me a feel a little bit better about it in this case...

[st7860]

there's going to be many annoyed people if he gets off with an NCR.

[noxe2]

if this guy goes free then our justice system is a f'in joke, he deserves to be hanged, an eye for an eye! :mad:

[Snicla]

As long as he's not released, ever.

[konfusion666]

I can understand the reason for him not being put into a "normal" prison with gangbangers and rapists, since he was mentally ill - but don't they have institutions for the mentally ill in Canada like they do in the States?
The point is, if he goes to a regular hospital and is released after a year or 2, how can the psychiatrists be sure he won't suffer a repeat of the rampaging "episode" he had last year? Isn't it safer for society, for him to be kept segregated from society.... permanently?

[CeoOfKFC]

lol

[CSK'sMom]

I can understand the reason for him not being put into a "normal" prison with gangbangers and rapists, since he was mentally ill - but don't they have institutions for the mentally ill in Canada like they do in the States?
The point is, if he goes to a regular hospital and is released after a year or 2, how can the psychiatrists be sure he won't suffer a repeat of the rampaging "episode" he had last year? Isn't it safer for society, for him to be kept segregated from society.... permanently?

Yes there are locked mental facilities in Canada and if convicted under an NCR defense that is exactly where he will end up. The facility in London comes to mind here in S. Ont. Legally speaking, my understanding is that he has to be assessed on a yearly basis by a team of doctors to deem his fitness for release. Even if deemed fit for release it's not like they are just turned loose with no conditions or followup. If deemed not fit he stays a minimum of another year... We were told that very, very few are deemed fit for release at the 1 year mark and IIRC, the average stay is more around the 10-12 yr mark. Frankly speaking, if this guy doesn't fit with an NCR conviction I don't know what does. I'd rather see him go to a locked facility and actually get some help vs. go to a prison and get no help at all. In that case he's come out far more dangerous IMO..

[konfusion666]

Is 10-12 years in such a facility even enough though? Is psychiatry an "exact science" - what is the "success rate" of psychiatrists who deem individuals suitable for release into the population?

[Lulz]

Eye for an eye!

I don't think morons in court system realize that many death cases happen by people who were already known to police, were in jail, and were released...

I have heard of so many stories of drunk drivers, rapists, pedophiles and killers get out of jail, only to commit the same crime and only then, get serious jail time after 2nd offense

[baz5]

Put him to sleep.

[ashgotti]

Eye for an eye!

I don't think morons in court system realize that many death cases happen by people who were already known to police, were in jail, and were released...

I have heard of so many stories of drunk drivers, rapists, pedophiles and killers get out of jail, only to commit the same crime and only then, get serious jail time after 2nd offense

wow..19th century much? "Eye for an eye" doesn't work, look at texas and their stance on executions. How can you say "murder is wrong, and if you do it, the state will murder you"?

You hear those stories because they're sensational and sell papers. You don't hear the stories of all the people who don't recommit.

Crime is inevitable. Decreasing it means understanding it, not acting like a savage in response.

[ashgotti]

Yes there are locked mental facilities in Canada and if convicted under an NCR defense that is exactly where he will end up. The facility in London comes to mind here in S. Ont. Legally speaking, my understanding is that he has to be assessed on a yearly basis by a team of doctors to deem his fitness for release. Even if deemed fit for release it's not like they are just turned loose with no conditions or followup. If deemed not fit he stays a minimum of another year... We were told that very, very few are deemed fit for release at the 1 year mark and IIRC, the average stay is more around the 10-12 yr mark. Frankly speaking, if this guy doesn't fit with an NCR conviction I don't know what does. I'd rather see him go to a locked facility and actually get some help vs. go to a prison and get no help at all. In that case he's come out far more dangerous IMO..

Exactly. The seriously mentally ill do not belong in prison. They will only end up seriously harming themselves, other prisoners, or the guards.

[MasterXan]

wow..19th century much? "Eye for an eye" doesn't work, look at texas and their stance on executions. How can you say "murder is wrong, and if you do it, the state will murder you"?

You hear those stories because they're sensational and sell papers. You don't hear the stories of all the people who don't recommit.

Crime is inevitable. Decreasing it means understanding it, not acting like a savage in response.

BECAUSE WHEN THE GOVERNMENT DOES IT, IT IS NOT MURDER!

:D:lol:

it's simple, kill the murderers, and they don't come back. no need to think about them and no need to rehabilitate them.

[Nikita]

wow..19th century much? "Eye for an eye" doesn't work, look at texas and their stance on executions. How can you say "murder is wrong, and if you do it, the state will murder you"?

You hear those stories because they're sensational and sell papers. You don't hear the stories of all the people who don't recommit.
Crime is inevitable. Decreasing it means understanding it, not acting like a savage in response.

Excellent point, excellent post!

BECAUSE WHEN THE GOVERNMENT DOES IT, IT IS NOT MURDER!

:D:lol:

it's simple, kill the murderers, and they don't come back. no need to think about them and no need to rehabilitate them.

Gee yeah, so simple....can't figure out why nobody's thought of that before...:rolleyes:

[st7860]

BECAUSE WHEN THE GOVERNMENT DOES IT, IT IS NOT MURDER!

:D:lol:

it's simple, kill the murderers, and they don't come back. no need to think about them and no need to rehabilitate them.

I can't wait till Ms John Howard Society comments on that.

[CSK'sMom]

I can't wait till Ms John Howard Society comments on that.

Who the hell is this in reference to? If it's to me because I tried to explain exactly what a NCR conviction really means in real world terms you had better think again there st. To begin with try searching my older posts, I'll even give you a hint and tell you to search July 04. Then come back here and tell me where I stand ok... :mad:
Just be thankful you have never had to walk in my shoes there dude...

[YYZFA]

Who the hell is this in reference to? If it's to me because I tried to explain exactly what a NCR conviction really means in real world terms you had better think again there st. To begin with try searching my older posts, I'll even give you a hint and tell you to search July 04. Then come back here and tell me where I stand ok... :mad:
Just be thankful you have never had to walk in my shoes there dude...

He's a troll. Best to ignore him.

[Prophallus]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2009/03/04/mb-li-trial.html

so apparently Li is a schizophrenic who was hearing voices from "God" saying that the victim was a demon who would stab him if he didn't defend himself

Li is probably going to be put under the care of a psychiatric facility and if they deem him "sane" he could go free

would you feel safe sitting next to him on a bus?

[bokep]

Anything that will get him out of society.

[Yu_Qing]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2009/03/04/mb-li-trial.html

so apparently Li is a schizophrenic who was hearing voices from "God" saying that the victim was a demon who would stab him if he didn't defend himself

Li is probably going to be put under the care of a psychiatric facility and if they deem him "sane" he could go free

would you feel safe sitting next to him on a bus?



No.

[Shaner]

Of course I wouldn't feel safe sitting next to him on a bus, or anywhere for that matter. The problem with people who have mental health issues is you never know when they're going to have an episode.

I believe people such as Li should be locked away for a long time. Sure, it will probably be determined that he wasn't criminally responsible and that with proper medication his health issues can be managed, but I don't think that's good enough. Although not his fault (assuming he is found not criminally responsible) I think he should be locked away for the safety of the rest of society.

Our justice system heavily favours the rights of individuals over the safety of society. I think the pendulum needs to swing back the other way a bit. It sucks for those who have mental health issues, but it's better to lock them away then to put the rest of society in danger by releasing them.

That's also why I believe in longer sentences for violent offenders, not because they are a deterrent or because they rehabilitate offenders, but because if a person is in jail they are not a danger to society.

[Eyies]

Of course I wouldn't feel safe sitting next to him on a bus, or anywhere for that matter. The problem with people who have mental health issues is you never know when they're going to have an episode.

I believe people such as Li should be locked away for a long time. Sure, it will probably be determined that he wasn't criminally responsible and that with proper medication his health issues can be managed, but I don't think that's good enough. Although not his fault (assuming he is found not criminally responsible) I think he should be locked away for the safety of the rest of society.

Our justice system heavily favours the rights of individuals over the safety of society. I think the pendulum needs to swing back the other way a bit. It sucks for those who have mental health issues, but it's better to lock them away then to put the rest of society in danger by releasing them.

That's also why I believe in longer sentences for violent offenders, not because they are a deterrent or because they rehabilitate offenders, but because if a person is in jail they are not a danger to society.

I agree, violent crimes should be penalized more seriously.

[Prophallus]

that way we'd potentially be locking up people who are completely normal, assuming their treatment went as planned and they really are no longer a threat to society... hard to say what's "just" in this situation
however, i clearly wouldn't feel comfortable sitting next to this guy on a bus...

Of course I wouldn't feel safe sitting next to him on a bus, or anywhere for that matter. The problem with people who have mental health issues is you never know when they're going to have an episode.

I believe people such as Li should be locked away for a long time. Sure, it will probably be determined that he wasn't criminally responsible and that with proper medication his health issues can be managed, but I don't think that's good enough. Although not his fault (assuming he is found not criminally responsible) I think he should be locked away for the safety of the rest of society.

Our justice system heavily favours the rights of individuals over the safety of society. I think the pendulum needs to swing back the other way a bit. It sucks for those who have mental health issues, but it's better to lock them away then to put the rest of society in danger by releasing them.

That's also why I believe in longer sentences for violent offenders, not because they are a deterrent or because they rehabilitate offenders, but because if a person is in jail they are not a danger to society.

[Shaner]

that way we'd potentially be locking up people who are completely normal, assuming their treatment went as planned and they really are no longer a threat to society... hard to say what's "just" in this situation
however, i clearly wouldn't feel comfortable sitting next to this guy on a bus...

The issue is that this Li guy (and people like him) will never be normal. No amount of treatment will cure this guy. At any time he could have another episode and hurt someone else. This guy will always potentially be a threat to society and no amount of treatment will change that.

[ullyeus]

The issue is that this Li guy (and people like him) will never be normal. No amount of treatment will cure this guy. At any time he could have another episode and hurt someone else. This guy will always potentially be a threat to society and no amount of treatment will change that.

Are you saying rehabilitation is impossible for people? or just some people? and how do you determine which people?

[Shaner]

Are you saying rehabilitation is impossible for people? or just some people? and how do you determine which people?

You can't rehabilitate someone who doesn't even comprehend the crime they committed. People who have severe mental health issues can't be rehabilitated in the same manner that others can be (and the whole concept of rehabilitation is flawed IMO, but that's for a different, much more in depth thread). You can treat them with medication, therapy, etc. but eventually you have to set them loose and hope they continue taking their meds. If they don't, you don't know what kind of reaction you will get from them.

And as for how to determine if someone will be a risk to society if they don't stick with their treatment plan, well that is doctors, psychiatrists, etc. to decide, hopefully ones who have experience with violent criminals.

[rapsrealm]

Are you saying rehabilitation is impossible for people? or just some people? and how do you determine which people?

I agree someone I know closely suffered from schizophrenia for a good portion of her life and when she takes her medicine she is probably one of the nicest people there is. I don't think the guy should be locked for life why should he suffer for something he didn't cause. He never asked to be mentally ill. I understand the victim never did anything and he lost his life but I have a problem with how the mentally ill are treated in our society. You walk downtown and you see many of the homeless suffering from various mental illnesses. Due to stupid regulations that person cannot be forced to get rehabilitation because they do not consent to it but if the person is mentally ill how are they going to make proper decisions. These people are unfortunately left to live on the streets instead of having a real chance to contribute to the greater society.

[board123]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2009/03/04/mb-li-trial.html

so apparently Li is a schizophrenic who was hearing voices from "God" saying that the victim was a demon who would stab him if he didn't defend himself

Li is probably going to be put under the care of a psychiatric facility and if they deem him "sane" he could go free

would you feel safe sitting next to him on a bus?
Demon meat tastes mmm mmm good.

[bokep]

I agree someone I know closely suffered from schizophrenia for a good portion of her life and when she takes her medicine she is probably one of the nicest people there is. I don't think the guy should be locked for life why should he suffer for something he didn't cause. He never asked to be mentally ill. I understand the victim never did anything and he lost his life but I have a problem with how the mentally ill are treated in our society. You walk downtown and you see many of the homeless suffering from various mental illnesses. Due to stupid regulations that person cannot be forced to get rehabilitation because they do not consent to it but if the person is mentally ill how are they going to make proper decisions. These people are unfortunately left to live on the streets instead of having a real chance to contribute to the greater society.

You can't be seriously suggesting that people should be able to be put in rehab without own consent.

[Shaner]

I agree someone I know closely suffered from schizophrenia for a good portion of her life and when she takes her medicine she is probably one of the nicest people there is. I don't think the guy should be locked for life why should he suffer for something he didn't cause. He never asked to be mentally ill. I understand the victim never did anything and he lost his life but I have a problem with how the mentally ill are treated in our society. You walk downtown and you see many of the homeless suffering from various mental illnesses. Due to stupid regulations that person cannot be forced to get rehabilitation because they do not consent to it but if the person is mentally ill how are they going to make proper decisions. These people are unfortunately left to live on the streets instead of having a real chance to contribute to the greater society.

That brings me back to my original point, which should be the bigger priority, the rights of the individual or the protection of society from violent people? While I don't advocate taking away our rights under the guise of security, I do think we need to re-evaluate the sentences those with mental health issues receive. Sure, this Li guy probably didn't mean to hurt anyone and it's unfortunate that he was born with schizophrenia, but I believe he should be locked up until such time as a doctor can state that he won't be a danger to society even if he discontinues his treatment program. If such an assurance can't be provided, he should remain locked up indefinitely. It's unfortunate for him, but in this case, I value the protection of society over his freedom. Why should he suffer? Well, why should all of society suffer by letting him out?

[BlueMax]

That brings me back to my original point, which should be the bigger priority, the rights of the individual or the protection of society from violent people? While I don't advocate taking away our rights under the guise of security, I do think we need to re-evaluate the sentences those with mental health issues receive. Sure, this Li guy probably didn't mean to hurt anyone and it's unfortunate that he was born with schizophrenia, but I believe he should be locked up until such time as a doctor can state that he won't be a danger to society even if he discontinues his treatment program. If such an assurance can't be provided, he should remain locked up indefinitely. It's unfortunate for him, but in this case, I value the protection of society over his freedom. Why should he suffer? Well, why should all of society suffer by letting him out?

Agreed - people harp on individual rights FAR too much... "You must respect this poor, poor man's rights - don't lock him up." Well, "The Public" is made up of lots and lots of "individuals" who have the individual right not to be dismembered and eaten!

Locking a guy like this up, even permenantly, isn't trouncing his rights because, knowingly or not, he gave up those rights when he violated the rights of others.

To give a person too many unrestricted rights, including the "right" to do whatever they want to someone else means EVERYONE has the right to do anything they darn well please. Anarchy.

Lock 'im up - it's the right thing to do for everyone including himself - and you all darn well know that!

[rapsrealm]

You can't be seriously suggesting that people should be able to be put in rehab without own consent.

Yes I do, think of it this way parents are responsible for making decisions on the behalf of their young children because they do not have the mental maturity to make decisions on their own. Similarly, people who have certain forms of mental illnesses such as schizophrenia suffer from an illness which takes over a person's mind. How can they make the decision to go to the hospital when their mind is telling them that they are the one who is normal and the rest of the world isn't.

From my experience the person I know only got better because they committed a crime which could have potentially harmed another person. When the police were called numerous times before they refused to do anything because no crime was committed and the person was no harm to themselves those are the only circumstances the police will send the person to the hospital for mandatory treatment.

[rapsrealm]

That brings me back to my original point, which should be the bigger priority, the rights of the individual or the protection of society from violent people? While I don't advocate taking away our rights under the guise of security, I do think we need to re-evaluate the sentences those with mental health issues receive. Sure, this Li guy probably didn't mean to hurt anyone and it's unfortunate that he was born with schizophrenia, but I believe he should be locked up until such time as a doctor can state that he won't be a danger to society even if he discontinues his treatment program. If such an assurance can't be provided, he should remain locked up indefinitely. It's unfortunate for him, but in this case, I value the protection of society over his freedom. Why should he suffer? Well, why should all of society suffer by letting him out?


I understand what your saying and you do make a good point but back to my point that there should be some form of mandatory treatment requests from family could prevent this situation as well. Schizophrenia tends to get worst if untreated so if the person was given medication from the beginning the chances of his illness going this far would have been dramatically dropped as well.

[bokep]

Yes I do, think of it this way parents are responsible for making decisions on the behalf of their young children because they do not have the mental maturity to make decisions on their own. Similarly, people who have certain forms of mental illnesses such as schizophrenia suffer from an illness which takes over a person's mind. How can they make the decision to go to the hospital when their mind is telling them that they are the one who is normal and the rest of the world isn't.

From my experience the person I know only got better because they committed a crime which could have potentially harmed another person. When the police were called numerous times before they refused to do anything because no crime was committed and the person was no harm to themselves those are the only circumstances the police will send the person to the hospital for mandatory treatment.

I agree with you that in certain cases that it would be beneficial to the person, but you don't see the potential abuse of allowing that sort of thing to happen?

[phomp]

My only comment on this...

When the Doctor at the trial said that Li "is just as much a victim as McLean", I threw up in my mouth a bit. Not only that, it was said in front of the poor family that had to hear that garbage.

This guy stabbed the victim over 50 times, allegedly ate parts of him, spread him around, then tried to run away. The dude is obviously messed up and needs help. That being said, the public safety needs to be considered way ahead of his messed up needs.

Sometimes I wish we had Euthanasia allowed here so guys who are "suffering" so much like Li could just off themself and end their threat to public safety. Or do they have the capacity to not want to harm themself but others?
/End Rant.

Yes, I know the Euthanasia comment was a little unfounded.. just a rant. I can hear the, well you do not understand Skitzo comments comming now.

[ricoboxing]

I just heard he was found NOT criminally responsible for chopping the guys head off!!

[Nikita]

I just heard he was found NOT criminally responsible for chopping the guys head off!!

Geez rico...where ya been? Wasn't it like a week ago that the Crown conceded that? Their own expert and Li's expert both came to the same conclusion and I believe it was announced that the Crown wasn't going to be arguing against NCR. This morning's appearance was merely a formality AFAIK. Am I the only one not suprised??

[gflux]

My sister is a psychologist at a university and she mentioned to me quite a while ago that a lot of students from Hong Kong (don't ask me why she singled them out -- we happen to be Chinese as well) suffer from schizophrenia. In Li's case obviously, it went about unchecked. Tim Maclean's horrific death and the suffering of his family and friends was the result of this but if it wasn't him it would have been someone else - most likely his Li's wife. It unfortunate that someone that he worked with didn't get him some help -- but really how could anyone know what was going to happen?

[ricoboxing]

Geez rico...where ya been? Wasn't it like a week ago that the Crown conceded that? Their own expert and Li's expert both came to the same conclusion and I believe it was announced that the Crown wasn't going to be arguing against NCR. This morning's appearance was merely a formality AFAIK. Am I the only one not suprised??

dammit! i thought it was news! lol

i was listening to AM640 and they said "this just in, the judge has ruled that vincent li is not criminally responsible for the murder and beheading..."

[BornRuff]

My only comment on this...

When the Doctor at the trial said that Li "is just as much a victim as McLean", I threw up in my mouth a bit. Not only that, it was said in front of the poor family that had to hear that garbage.

This guy stabbed the victim over 50 times, allegedly ate parts of him, spread him around, then tried to run away. The dude is obviously messed up and needs help. That being said, the public safety needs to be considered way ahead of his messed up needs.

Sometimes I wish we had Euthanasia allowed here so guys who are "suffering" so much like Li could just off themself and end their threat to public safety. Or do they have the capacity to not want to harm themself but others?
/End Rant.

Yes, I know the Euthanasia comment was a little unfounded.. just a rant. I can hear the, well you do not understand Skitzo comments comming now.

I just heard he was found NOT criminally responsible for chopping the guys head off!!

Keep in mind guys that a person found not criminally responsible is most likely going to spend more time institutionalized than they would have spent in jail. If they have determined that you are so mentally ill that you can not tell right from wrong, then it will take a lot of evidence to prove you have changed enough to be safe in society.

I believe they do have to change the system a bit though, because the current system certainly doesn't give the appearance of justice, which is a huge issue for families, no matter what the actual outcome is. It is also very distressing to families to know that every year this person is given a chance to be let out. It is hard for them to get peace.

[asot24]

So because he was listening to an invisible man he's not criminally responsible? Man religion lets you do anything you want doesn't it? Or sorry was he insane? I guess the line between the two is pretty grey.

[GabrielNathan]

Yes, I know the Euthanasia comment was a little unfounded.. just a rant. I can hear the, well you do not understand Skitzo comments comming now.

Youth in Asia.

[bokep]

So because he was listening to an invisible man he's not criminally responsible? Man religion lets you do anything you want doesn't it? Or sorry was he insane? I guess the line between the two is pretty grey.

Way to bring religion in here dumbass.

[GabrielNathan]

My sister is a psychologist at a university and she mentioned to me quite a while ago that a lot of students from Hong Kong (don't ask me why she singled them out -- we happen to be Chinese as well) suffer from schizophrenia.

Interesting, is it the stress, big city, pollution, etc?

[gflux]

Interesting, is it the stress, big city, pollution, etc?

It's probably the school/parental stress, the language barrier and being away from home - culture shock basically. I used to go to a Chinese church and there was this social division between the Canadian born Chinese (CBC)kids and the HK kids studying in Canada. The HK kids thought that the CBCs looked at them as dumb because they didn't speak english very well. It was actually the opposite - we thought they were all geniuses.

I'll have to ask my sister to go into greater detail about all this.

[BornRuff]

So because he was listening to an invisible man he's not criminally responsible? Man religion lets you do anything you want doesn't it? Or sorry was he insane? I guess the line between the two is pretty grey.

It is not gray at all. The definition of someone who is not criminally responsible for their crimes is if they were incapable of determining between right and wrong.

If your religion did happen to tell you to kill people, but you had no mental illness, you are perfectly capable of understanding that killing people is against the law, and you are fully responsible for your actions.

Also, schizophrenia is not necessarily hearing voices, though that can be a symptom. Wikipedia describes is very concisely.

"It most commonly manifests as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking with significant social or occupational dysfunction."

[Emancipated]

Most Asians suffer from some type of complex and with the proliferation of violent games, they're more liable to snap and act out on that aggression they find so comforting but not realizing fiction and reality are two different things. Someone just got headshotted but they're not respawning. Oops.

[BornRuff]

Most Asians suffer from some type of complex and with the proliferation of violent games, they're more liable to snap and act out on that aggression they find so comforting but not realizing fiction and reality are two different things. Someone just got headshotted but they're not respawning. Oops.

There is no evidence that violent video games cause violent behavior.

What there is evidence to suggest is that schizophrenia has both a heritable component, but is also influenced by environmental factors like stress. This means that genetic traits inherited from your parents can make you more susceptible to schizophrenia, but it usually takes an environmental stresser to trigger it. It appears that Chinese culture puts a lot more pressure on people to succeed, so this heightened level of stress could explain a heightened rate of schizophrenia.

This all of course assumes that their actually is an increased rate of schizophrenia in the Chinese population.

[heymikey]

Sometimes I wish we had Euthanasia ...
Youth in Asia.
LOL. Thanks for the laugh.

[fosterz]

So If I am a company's CEO, should I not hire people with Chinese background because there is a "consensus" that most of them have some sort of mental issues. That would be a dangerous road to tread IMO.

[asot24]

Way to bring religion in here dumbass.

The killer brought it up when he beheaded the kid because God told him to.
Way to add to the conversation with an ad hominem though. :D

[bokep]

The killer brought it up when he beheaded the kid because God told him to.
Way to add to the conversation with an ad hominem though. :D

That's because this thread has a good conversation going on, and I'd hate to see it get locked because a dumbass decide to bring up the issue of religion out of the blue in an attempt to offend those who are religious. It's rare that a good discussion come up in OT, and half the time they end abruptly because shitbags like you come in with your agenda to attack religious people, no matter what's being discussed. Why don't you take a look at your own post history and look at how much of a ****** you are?

The guy is a mental case. Who gives a **** it was a god, his brother, or a chipmunk in his mind?

[smithfan]

Agreed - people harp on individual rights FAR too much... "You must respect this poor, poor man's rights - don't lock him up." Well, "The Public" is made up of lots and lots of "individuals" who have the individual right not to be dismembered and eaten!

Locking a guy like this up, even permenantly, isn't trouncing his rights because, knowingly or not, he gave up those rights when he violated the rights of others.

To give a person too many unrestricted rights, including the "right" to do whatever they want to someone else means EVERYONE has the right to do anything they darn well please. Anarchy.

Lock 'im up - it's the right thing to do for everyone including himself - and you all darn well know that!

Yeah its very simply really. The moment you take someones most basic rights away (the right to live!) all bets are off. Nuts or not you don't deserve a second chance to do it again. If you willing to take someone elses rights away you better be ready to give yours away too. As Spock said "the needs of many outweigh the needs of the few or the one". :) Just like the morons you read about in the paper every month who have 5 or 6 DUI's and no license but keep getting behind the wheel. Here you go sir, try to drive in your nice little cell. For the people who say "we cant afford to do that it would cost too much to lock all those people up", If we have the money to throw at car companies for bailouts, then we have the money to lock a minority of people up to keep the majority safe! Theres just no consequences to anyone's actions anymore so more and more people just do what they want.
Just have to love Canada open door policy on immigration too. Sane enough to be allowed in the country but nuts enough to not be held accountable for anything he does while here. Surely with all the people that would like to live in this fine country we can use a little more discretion?

[BornRuff]

The killer brought it up when he beheaded the kid because God told him to.
Way to add to the conversation with an ad hominem though. :D

The man is mentally ill. If he didn't know anything about god, he might have assumed it was Santa, or the Easter Bunny talking to him. God is just a name he put on a voice that he hallucinated. It has nothing to do with religion at all.


Just have to love Canada open door policy on immigration too. Sane enough to be allowed in the country but nuts enough to not be held accountable for anything he does while here. Surely with all the people that would like to live in this fine country we can use a little more discretion?

It is extremely likely that he did not exhibit signs of schizophrenia in 2001 when he came here. Like I said, there is normally a trigger, and working numerous crappy jobs, moving around, and not being able to communicate well in English, all could have triggered his schizophrenia while he was here.

[Shaner]

Keep in mind guys that a person found not criminally responsible is most likely going to spend more time institutionalized than they would have spent in jail.

Is that so? Where did you get this fact from or are you making an assumption? You really need to post a source when you make such a claim.

[Shaner]

That's because this thread has a good conversation going on, and I'd hate to see it get locked because a dumbass decide to bring up the issue of religion out of the blue in an attempt to offend those who are religious. It's rare that a good discussion come up in OT, and half the time they end abruptly because shitbags like you come in with your agenda to attack religious people, no matter what's being discussed. Why don't you take a look at your own post history and look at how much of a ****** you are?

The guy is a mental case. Who gives a **** it was a god, his brother, or a chipmunk in his mind?

I would also hate to see it locked because you threw a temper tantrum and called someone else a ******, a dumbass and a **** all because they brought up religion. His post alone wasn't enough to get this thread locked so you really could have responded in a different manner.

[Spidey]

The cops should of saved everyone all this, expecially the parents of the deceased, the taxpayers money being wasted now and forever, having to worry he may be let back into society, and shot the bastard on that bus when he was holding the head and waving it around. End of story. Flame all you want.

His rights, what about everyone elses rights not to worry about being beheaded by the POS if he ever gets out again.

[WontonTiger]

The cops should of saved everyone all this, expecially the parents of the deceased, the taxpayers money being wasted now and forever, having to worry he may be let back into society, and shot the bastard on that bus when he was holding the head and waving it around. End of story. Flame all you want.

His rights, what about everyone elses rights not to worry about being beheaded by the POS if he ever gets out again.

I bet a few of them are second guessing their decision today.

Mentally ill or not, this man is a danger to everyone in Canada, and should be locked up for good. Throw in a dangerous offender designation, then never let him out. I know this won't happen, but people can dream.

Oh this country we live in... I'm honestly scared to see where Western civilization will be in 50 years (if it hasn't blown itself to pieces).

[BornRuff]

Is that so? Where did you get this fact from or are you making an assumption? You really need to post a source when you make such a claim.

We talked about this in my psychology class in our unit about psychology and the law. This is what my prof told us. If I can find it in the book I'll let you know.

If you think about it though, it is very very hard to prove that someone who at one point was so mentally ill that they did not understand that killing someone was wrong, is now safe to re-enter society.

[WontonTiger]

I agree someone I know closely suffered from schizophrenia for a good portion of her life and when she takes her medicine she is probably one of the nicest people there is. I don't think the guy should be locked for life why should he suffer for something he didn't cause. He never asked to be mentally ill. I understand the victim never did anything and he lost his life but I have a problem with how the mentally ill are treated in our society. You walk downtown and you see many of the homeless suffering from various mental illnesses. Due to stupid regulations that person cannot be forced to get rehabilitation because they do not consent to it but if the person is mentally ill how are they going to make proper decisions. These people are unfortunately left to live on the streets instead of having a real chance to contribute to the greater society.

Food for thought...

quote: "Why should he suffer for something he didn't cause, he never asked to be mentally ill."

It's not a matter of choice. At what point do we need to ask how genetics plays into this. You may not choose your genes, however you must live with them. Some people can't control themselves, and are too much of a risk to society to have an "opportunity" to re-offend (not take their meds). There comes a point when intent and choice is moot. This is one of those circumstances.

At what point do we deem certain individuals to be genetic failures?

[BornRuff]

At what point do we deem certain individuals to be genetic failures?

When you are Hitler.

[WontonTiger]

When you are Hitler.

You misunderstand or are abusing context...

Hitler acted on those beliefs by murdering. There was no mention of a solution to my statement, and I would never advocate state sponsored murder.

They could lock people up, however they can never "truly" cure them. If one person forgets to take their meds, how far can things go ...

(Mr. Li showed us how far)

[bokep]

I would also hate to see it locked because you threw a temper tantrum and called someone else a ******, a dumbass and a **** all because they brought up religion. His post alone wasn't enough to get this thread locked so you really could have responded in a different manner.

You seem clueless. Why don't you go look at asot24 has been posting in the last little while?

Might want to read up on the forum rules while you're at it.

[ullyeus]

That's because this thread has a good conversation going on, and I'd hate to see it get locked because a dumbass decide to bring up the issue of religion out of the blue in an attempt to offend those who are religious. It's rare that a good discussion come up in OT, and half the time they end abruptly because shitbags like you come in with your agenda to attack religious people, no matter what's being discussed. Why don't you take a look at your own post history and look at how much of a ****** you are?

The guy is a mental case. Who gives a **** it was a god, his brother, or a chipmunk in his mind?

well....arguably this entire thread is political and about our justice system so it's not allowed anyways.

[ullyeus]

Food for thought...


At what point do we deem certain individuals to be genetic failures?

When you are Hitler.

You misunderstand or are abusing context...

Hitler acted on those beliefs by murdering. There was no mention of a solution to my statement, and I would never advocate state sponsored murder.

They could lock people up, however they can never "truly" cure them. If one person forgets to take their meds, how far can things go ...

(Mr. Li showed us how far)

I'd rather be "murdered" than incarcerated my entire life.

[BornRuff]

You misunderstand or are abusing context...

Hitler acted on those beliefs by murdering. There was no mention of a solution to my statement, and I would never advocate state sponsored murder.

They could lock people up, however they can never "truly" cure them. If one person forgets to take their meds, how far can things go ...

(Mr. Li showed us how far)

The belief that a persons genetics could make them a bad person is exactly the rational Hitler used. When you start down that road, it leads to scary places. If someone has the genetic traits to be a bad person, should we even wait until they commit a crime to toss them in jail? If they really are "genetic failures", why even keep them alive on tax payer dollars?

Mr. Li was diagnosed after the fact. He didn't forget to take his meds, he wasn't on meds. Vince Li is an outlier. The percentage of people with schizophrenia who would go on a rampage like Li's if they forgot to take their meds is to small to be significant, and those people would never be able to pass examination to be released from forced institutionalization.

It appears your views are based on simply not understanding mental illness. It is natural to fear what you don't understand, but it is not right to take away someone's rights because of it. Just like any other murderer, someone deemed NCR has the right to be rehabilitated and given the chance to re-enter society at the appropriate time, if they are not a threat.

[smithfan]

The man is mentally ill. If he didn't know anything about god, he might have assumed it was Santa, or the Easter Bunny talking to him. God is just a name he put on a voice that he hallucinated. It has nothing to do with religion at all.



It is extremely likely that he did not exhibit signs of schizophrenia in 2001 when he came here. Like I said, there is normally a trigger, and working numerous crappy jobs, moving around, and not being able to communicate well in English, all could have triggered his schizophrenia while he was here.

Oh so its Canada's fault now? LOL Blame Canada!
Responsibility for his actions lies with him. Regardless of his state of mind. I have a right to be protected from people like that!

[ullyeus]

Oh so its Canada's fault now? LOL Blame Canada!
Responsibility for his actions lies with him. Regardless of his state of mind. I have a right to be protected from people like that!

lol, where did he even mention Canada?

You have a right to be protected and he has rights too.

[smithfan]

The belief that a persons genetics could make them a bad person is exactly the rational Hitler used. When you start down that road, it leads to scary places. If someone has the genetic traits to be a bad person, should we even wait until they commit a crime to toss them in jail? If they really are "genetic failures", why even keep them alive on tax payer dollars?

Mr. Li was diagnosed after the fact. He didn't forget to take his meds, he wasn't on meds. Vince Li is an outlier. The percentage of people with schizophrenia who would go on a rampage like Li's if they forgot to take their meds is to small to be significant, and those people would never be able to pass examination to be released from forced institutionalization.

It appears your views are based on simply not understanding mental illness. It is natural to fear what you don't understand, but it is not right to take away someone's rights because of it. Just like any other murderer, someone deemed NCR has the right to be rehabilitated and given the chance to re-enter society at the appropriate time, if they are not a threat.

No one can give any assurances that let loose on society, he wont just do it again. How many strikes you propose he be allowed? How many lives should one person be allowed to take before hes locked away?

[smithfan]

lol, where did he even mention Canada?

You have a right to be protected and he has rights too.

He said

"it is extremely likely that he did not exhibit signs of schizophrenia in 2001 when he came here. Like I said, there is normally a trigger, and working numerous crappy jobs, moving around, and not being able to communicate well in English, all could have triggered his schizophrenia while he was here."

So where did he spend 2001 - 2008 where he "wasn't able to communicate well in English" and where he "worked crappy jobs" if not in Canada?

[CheapScotsman]

No one can give any assurances that let loose on society, he wont just do it again. How many strikes you propose he be allowed? How many lives should one person be allowed to take before hes locked away?

For regular crimes, No one can give any assurances that let loose on society, he wont just do it again ... but we still release "reguilar" criminals even if those people have killed (negligence causing death, manslaughter, 2nd degree or 1st degree)

so we do the same for psychiatric patients ... when and big if they can show they are rehabilitated then it is time to release them ...

I am much more concerned about releasing "sane" criminals than "psychiatric" ones. There are a lot more of them AND they only have to do time; not show they are "better".

[Nikita]

dammit! i thought it was news! lol

LOL....dontcha hate it when that happens! Sorry, I'll try to refrain from stealing your spotlight from now on..lol.



Keep in mind guys that a person found not criminally responsible is most likely going to spend more time institutionalized than they would have spent in jail. If they have determined that you are so mentally ill that you can not tell right from wrong, then it will take a lot of evidence to prove you have changed enough to be safe in society.



Hmm, you raise an interesting question. I'm curious how much the average stay at an institution is for those NCR? Maybe I'll google it and see if I can get some answers later when I have time. Like you though, I tend to have a lot of faith in the process and the factors that are considered in determining when or whether someone NCR becomes reahibiltated to the point of being let out. Personally I don't recall anybody who was NCR for a serious crime being let out, which might only mean I haven't heard about it, just seems like something like that would make news for sure.

So because he was listening to an invisible man he's not criminally responsible? Man religion lets you do anything you want doesn't it? Or sorry was he insane? I guess the line between the two is pretty grey.

LOL..I don't think you meant that in the context I took it, but I agree the line between organized religion and insanity is often a very fine line.


My only comment on this...

When the Doctor at the trial said that Li "is just as much a victim as McLean", I threw up in my mouth a bit. Not only that, it was said in front of the poor family that had to hear that garbage.

I have to say, the judge could have been a little sensitive to the family and kept that kind of statement to himself. It's not like it served any good purpose to say that.

This guy stabbed the victim over 50 times, allegedly ate parts of him, spread him around, then tried to run away. The dude is obviously messed up and needs help. That being said, the public safety needs to be considered way ahead of his messed up needs.

Sometimes I wish we had Euthanasia allowed here so guys who are "suffering" so much like Li could just off themself and end their threat to public safety. Or do they have the capacity to not want to harm themself but others?
/End Rant.

Yes, I know the Euthanasia comment was a little unfounded.. just a rant. I can hear the, well you do not understand Skitzo comments comming now.

It's not Euthansia when one kills themself, it's suicide and that is legal.

That's because this thread has a good conversation going on, and I'd hate to see it get locked because a dumbass decide to bring up the issue of religion out of the blue in an attempt to offend those who are religious. It's rare that a good discussion come up in OT, and half the time they end abruptly because shitbags like you come in with your agenda to attack religious people, no matter what's being discussed. Why don't you take a look at your own post history and look at how much of a ****** you are?

The guy is a mental case. Who gives a **** it was a god, his brother, or a chipmunk in his mind?

Our system gives a ****, as do most democratic countries.

Is that so? Where did you get this fact from or are you making an assumption? You really need to post a source when you make such a claim.

Well at least we know he won't even get a chance to get out for at least a year...more than we can say for some other killers, some who have only received conditional sentences (in the past, as that is no longer available for violent offenses). But my guess is, he won't be out for a verrrrry long time, actually probably longer than if he was sent to jail. I mean isn't it the consensus here on RFD that sentencing is way to lenient?

The cops should of saved everyone all this, expecially the parents of the deceased, the taxpayers money being wasted now and forever, having to worry he may be let back into society, and shot the bastard on that bus when he was holding the head and waving it around. End of story. Flame all you want.

His rights, what about everyone elses rights not to worry about being beheaded by the POS if he ever gets out again.

Not a flame, but a statement of fact. At that point (where he was locked in the bus and seen holding the guy's head), nobody was in danger, so the police couldn't shoot, legally. I'm sure they would have liked to and it may have been right morally, but that would likely result in a murder or manslaughter charge against the cop who shot him.

I bet a few of them are second guessing their decision today.

Mentally ill or not, this man is a danger to everyone in Canada, and should be locked up for good. Throw in a dangerous offender designation, then never let him out. I know this won't happen, but people can dream.

Oh this country we live in... I'm honestly scared to see where Western civilization will be in 50 years (if it hasn't blown itself to pieces).

Only people convicted of crimes can be declared dangerous offenders. He wasn't, he was found NCR.


well....arguably this entire thread is political and about our justice system so it's not allowed anyways.

It's about our legal system, I agree, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's political.

Oh so its Canada's fault now? LOL Blame Canada!
Responsibility for his actions lies with him. Regardless of his state of mind. I have a right to be protected from people like that!

He wasn't blaming Canada, he was responding to the poster who blamed Canada's immigration policies that allowed Li in....pay attention smithfan!:cheesygri

No one can give any assurances that let loose on society, he wont just do it again. How many strikes you propose he be allowed? How many lives should one person be allowed to take before hes locked away?

No one can give any assurances your next door neighbor isn't a psycho either. And like Li, we may not find out anyone in particular is a psycho until they do something like this. Bottom line, is just unrealistic to the extreme to expect anyone to give any assurances that anyone isn't mentally ill and go off killing someone. Sorry, but there are no certainties and no perfect answers when it comes to human nature, for the simple reason that we are all humans, all different, and nobody's perfect. So no system will ever be perfect enough to assure anyone of anything.

[Ebola]

It's Canada, noone is beyond rehabilitation in our system.

:rolleyes:

[smithfan]

For regular crimes, No one can give any assurances that let loose on society, he wont just do it again ... but we still release "reguilar" criminals even if those people have killed (negligence causing death, manslaughter, 2nd degree or 1st degree)

so we do the same for psychiatric patients ... when and big if they can show they are rehabilitated then it is time to release them ...

I am much more concerned about releasing "sane" criminals than "psychiatric" ones. There are a lot more of them AND they only have to do time; not show they are "better".

Why are you confusing the issue? Im all for stiffer penalties for "regular" criminals too but that's not what this is about. He killed someone and should be held responsible for it end of story.

Nikita My next door neighbor hasn't killed anyone yet. This guy has. Saying its not his fault and letting him go do it again isn't a solution.

Why so many posters in this thread are willing to over look the fact that hes already given away his rights is mind boggling to me. Why are so many people will to side with the criminal instead of the victim? Curious how many of you would want him back on the street if it was YOUR loved one he cut into little bits. Hes a danger to the public and as such should be locked up makes no difference to me if hes sane or not.

[Nikita]

Why are you confusing the issue? Im all for stiffer penalties for "regular" criminals too but that's not what this is about. He killed someone and should be held responsible for it end of story.

Nikita My next door neighbor hasn't killed anyone yet. This guy has. Saying its not his fault and letting him go do it again isn't a solution.

YET being the operative word. Li didn't kill anyone 'yet' either until now. You obviously missed my point.

Why so many posters in this thread are willing to over look the fact that hes already given away his rights is mind boggling to me. Why are so many people will to side with the criminal instead of the victim? Curious how many of you would want him back on the street if it was YOUR loved one he cut into little bits. Hes a danger to the public and as such should be locked up makes no difference to me if hes sane or not.

Earth to smithfan...he hasn't been CONVICTED, therefore he hasn't given up his rights, and therefore his is not a 'criminal' that people are taking sides with. Again not everything is black and white. People who are showing some understanding of those with mental illness are not, as far as I've seen yet, taking his side against the victim. If I'm wrong please show me where anyone has said anything negative about the victim. They're simply matue enough to be able to see both sides and understand that human nature can simply never be pinned down to a certain or perfect answer or resolution.

[CheapScotsman]

Why are you confusing the issue? Im all for stiffer penalties for "regular" criminals too but that's not what this is about. He killed someone and should be held responsible for it end of story.

Nikita My next door neighbor hasn't killed anyone yet. This guy has. Saying its not his fault and letting him go do it again isn't a solution.

Why so many posters in this thread are willing to over look the fact that hes already given away his rights is mind boggling to me. Why are so many people will to side with the criminal instead of the victim? Curious how many of you would want him back on the street if it was YOUR loved one he cut into little bits. Hes a danger to the public and as such should be locked up makes no difference to me if hes sane or not.He was only deemed not criminally responsible but he is going to be held "responsible". He is going to be held in a psychiatric institute for the next NN years and undergo treatment. They won't let him out till he can prove that he is sane ... Given his issues (and the profile of this case), he isn't going to be out for a long long time

The other alternative is to convict, send him to the pen where he will get NO treatment and he will be out in 10 or less.

This way, he gets some help that he needs and has to SHOW that he has changed ... This is a better option than a straight criminal conviction.

[chris103610]

wow, i never understood this.

just because you're mentally ill, does that mean rules don't apply to you?
This is crazy in my mind.

and my thinking is, if you're crazy enough to do something that horrific. what does it matter if you're in jail or not? will you even know the difference?

This is ********..
i feel really bad for the family of the victim.

"He will be institutionalized without a criminal record and will be reassessed every year by a mental health review board to determine if he is fit for release into the community."

"Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of evil."
Q; how can BOTH the prosecution and the defence argue the same point? isn't one supposed to argue for and one against? WTF

source;
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29530465/

[vrus]

Jail won't fix his illness.

[BornRuff]

Oh so its Canada's fault now? LOL Blame Canada!
Responsibility for his actions lies with him. Regardless of his state of mind. I have a right to be protected from people like that!

He said

"it is extremely likely that he did not exhibit signs of schizophrenia in 2001 when he came here. Like I said, there is normally a trigger, and working numerous crappy jobs, moving around, and not being able to communicate well in English, all could have triggered his schizophrenia while he was here."

So where did he spend 2001 - 2008 where he "wasn't able to communicate well in English" and where he "worked crappy jobs" if not in Canada?

You have to read the post I quoted since that is what I was responding too. He was blaming the Canadian immigration system for letting this man in. I was simply saying that he more than likely was not showing any symptoms when he immigrated.

No one can give any assurances that let loose on society, he wont just do it again. How many strikes you propose he be allowed? How many lives should one person be allowed to take before hes locked away?

Well, you can't really give me any assurance that you wont go and stab someone in the neck either. We can never be 100% safe in society. Our society is extremely safe though. These kind of situations are outliers. I do not think taking away people's rights is warranted based on these extremely rare situations.

I don't propose a strike system at all, and I never did. Currently they hold the person in an institution until they are deemed fit to leave. If he is never well enough to leave, he never will. If he is, he will. I like this.

Weather they spend more or less time in the institution than they would have had they been found criminally responsible isn't really that much of an issue, (though to my knowledge they generally spend more time). If the person is truly incapable of determining right from wrong, you can't really compare their actions to that of someone who willfully broke the law. The only real issue is worrying about if they are safe to re-enter society.

[CheapScotsman]

There is already a 36 page thread on this subject here:

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=617677

[blakjak]

It's also been the case repeatedly that institutionalizing someone like this does not fix the problem either.

[najibs]

Great, so if you ever commit a horrendous crime, just pretend to be crazy, and you can escape the wrath of the law.Way to go Canadian law! :rolleyes:

[BornRuff]

wow, i never understood this.

just because you're mentally ill, does that mean rules don't apply to you?
This is crazy in my mind.

and my thinking is, if you're crazy enough to do something that horrific. what does it matter if you're in jail or not? will you even know the difference?

This is ********..
i feel really bad for the family of the victim.

"He will be institutionalized without a criminal record and will be reassessed every year by a mental health review board to determine if he is fit for release into the community."

"Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of evil."
Q; how can BOTH the prosecution and the defence argue the same point? isn't one supposed to argue for and one against? WTF

source;
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29530465/

Great, so if you ever commit a horrendous crime, just pretend to be crazy, and you can escape the wrath of the law.Way to go Canadian law! :rolleyes:

Being found not criminally responsible does not mean he got off free. He will very likely be confined to an institution for the rest of his life.

According to my psych prof, people found NCR many times serve more time than they would have if they were charged criminally.

Also, both sides supported the decision because both sides had their own psychiatric evaluations done, and both teams of experts confirmed that he had schizophrenia. If he's sick, he's sick.

[railman]

he should be accidentally

[phomp]

Jail won't fix his illness.

fix his illness, then throw him in jail.

[Emancipated]

I can't believe I"m saying this but send him back to China where they can harvest him for better use. I don't know about you, but I don't want this man walking the streets now or ever. Mental illnesses cannot be cured backed by decades of research after research. I know it's callous, unspeakably mid evil and what ever else you want to use, but someone who's capable of cutting a man's head off then supposedly consuming a piece of the victim just doesn't fit in any modern society.

Sorry, once you've crossed that line of cannibalism, you forfeit your membership card to the human species club.

[phomp]

YET being the operative word. Li didn't kill anyone 'yet' either until now. You obviously missed my point.



Earth to smithfan...he hasn't been CONVICTED, therefore he hasn't given up his rights, and therefore his is not a 'criminal' that people are taking sides with. Again not everything is black and white. People who are showing some understanding of those with mental illness are not, as far as I've seen yet, taking his side against the victim. If I'm wrong please show me where anyone has said anything negative about the victim. They're simply matue enough to be able to see both sides and understand that human nature can simply never be pinned down to a certain or perfect answer or resolution.
I mostly agree with your posts on here but on this it is really hard. I understand that he has not been convicted and therefore has not given up his rights and all that = not a "criminal". What I am having hard time swallowing is that Li for whatever reason brought a knife on to a bus and killed a innocent bystandard. The man has pyschological issues, and I can understand wanting to give him the oppertunity to rehabilitate but I believe that once/if he does rehabilitate he should have to pay for his abosolute hanus crime. He took a life for no reason other than his mental issues. If he ever gets out of the institution, he should pay for his crime.

The government will fund his rehabilitation, apparantly Li is "suffering" so much from his mental health that he can not be held account for his crimes, and suffers so much that if he is rehabilitated, he should be thankful for it. If he can be rehabilitated in a few year, he should be put on trial (I know this is not how the system works) and do his time.

The man whos life was taken will never get him back, and the man lost out on most of his life. Why should Li be rehabilitated and put back in to society? The life he took will never get that chance.

I agree that there is no perfect answer but rehabilitation and put back into society with no ramifications for what he has done is not the one that most would agree with. Me included. Please, feel free to correct me because I am not sure on how this works. If he is put into rehabilitation and deemed to be fit to put back into society after lets say 2 years for example, he is put back into society, correct?

[pitz]

So they'll pump him full of drugs, and turn him loose.

Amazing country we live in, where unelected judges can make such decisions, with no recourse to the actual community or the people.

[sweeper]

Absolutely ridiculous.

WITHOUT a criminal record?!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!!

[canehdianman]

Read up on something called "mens rea". It will hopefully shed some light for you.

[purple_rabbit]

Read up on something called "mens rea". It will hopefully shed some light for you.

and also "insane automatism"

[jstaneon]

they should crucify this useless piece of crap.

how does canada let these kind of people into the country?

[ephemera]

If the guy is slaughtering the dude on the bus, why didn't the cops shoot him to stop? That would have saved us all from this.

The ironic part of this is now this guy finally gets some help he needs in a mental institution. Why can't the system get involved before tragedy has to occur?

[wiggy]

Being found not criminally responsible does not mean he got off free. He will very likely be confined to an institution for the rest of his life.

According to my psych prof, people found NCR many times serve more time than they would have if they were charged criminally.

Also, both sides supported the decision because both sides had their own psychiatric evaluations done, and both teams of experts confirmed that he had schizophrenia. If he's sick, he's sick.

+1. He's just about as done as you get here in Canada. Any one know if he faces criminal prosecution after (if) he's cured? I thought that was a common sentencing practice?

[gordholio]

Great, so if you ever commit a horrendous crime, just pretend to be crazy, and you can escape the wrath of the law.Way to go Canadian law! :rolleyes:

I don't think it's that simple. In theory yes, but he was examined for a mental illness and apparently has one.

[Shaner]

+1. He's just about as done as you get here in Canada. Any one know if he faces criminal prosecution after (if) he's cured? I thought that was a common sentencing practice?

You can't prosecute twice for the same offence. He had his day in court and you won't see him back in any type of criminal proceedings regarding this matter.

[gordholio]

+1. He's just about as done as you get here in Canada. Any one know if he faces criminal prosecution after (if) he's cured? I thought that was a common sentencing practice?

If you know anything about schizophrenia, you don't really get cured of it. Apparently, this man was on medication for his illness. Some medications can produce dangerous results at times and this might have been the case.
The boys who were responsible for the Columbine killings were on psychiatric drugs (I believe) and so was the killer at Virginia Tech.
It's almost like the pills make you lose any conscience you have (that's my theory).

I've been on psychiatric drugs (for the most part) for about 18 years and on previous medications, it almost felt that I wasn't even human (very little emotion - but I never had any problems with violence). At the time, it felt like I had no soul in a sense.

[abu_sme]

There seem to be a lot of people who know nothing about the law. If anything this keeps it simple and there is no long drawn out trial. He gets a life sentence without dragging the family through the horror of it all again.

[molala]

There's literally no cure for schizophrenia. He doesn't have jail time and a criminal record but it doesn't mean that he would be able to get a job in the future or close to a normal life like the general public. Chances are, he would be insitutionalized for the rest of his life. Which, have no difference than being in a jail as he would be treated like garbage by health profesionals anyways.

[gordholio]

There's literally no cure for schizophrenia. He doesn't have jail time and a criminal record but it doesn't mean that he would be able to get a job in the future or close to a normal life like the general public. Chances are, he would be insitutionalized for the rest of his life. Which, have no difference than being in a jail as he would be treated like garbage by health profesionals anyways.

It's a touchy area. This man will be hospitalized and have restrictions on him (possibly a group home if he shows some improvement). However, again if he shows a lot of improvement, there is a strong possibility that he will be allowed back into regular society and even have a job (at least part-time) with many freedoms like an average person would have.
That's the problem. He could show improvement and re-integrate into society, yet it only takes one violent episode to make this into a catastrophe.
I think he has a mental illness, but because of his gross crime (murder), he should never be allowed the normal freedoms that you and I have.
In a sense, he is not responsible for the murder, yet he in fact is and should have to pay some sort of price regardless of illness.

I have a mental illness and mental health professionals have really HELPED me, not treated me like garbage. If it weren't for them (and support from friends and family), I don't even know if I would still be here or what condition I would be in. Most professionals try to help, although there are a few bad apples, like there is in any part of society.

[molala]

It's a touchy area. This man will be hospitalized and have restrictions on him (possibly a group home if he shows some improvement). However, again if he shows a lot of improvement, there is a strong possibility that he will be allowed back into regular society and even have a job (at least part-time) with many freedoms like an average person would have.
That's the problem. He could show improvement and re-integrate into society, yet it only takes one violent episode to make this into a catastrophe.
I think he has a mental illness, but because of his gross crime (murder), he should never be allowed the normal freedoms that you and I have.
In a sense, he is not responsible for the murder, yet he in fact is and should have to pay some sort of price regardless of illness.

Yes you are right are per the CTO. However, it would be years until he get to that point and he could be forced back to insitutionalized if he refuse the CTO but that's yet to find out. Though he might be given an opportunity to return to the society but he would suffer many illnesses from side effects of psychiatrict drugs cos the hospital would probably give him like 30 drugs a day. I'm going to get blast on this one but inviduals with mental illness suffers big time and psychiatric drugs are the worst legalized drugs as they have many adverse effects.

EDIT: Yes, there are many great mental health professionals (which myself know many and I would love to become one!) but I have seen many health professionals (doctors, and nurses in particular) at a hospital setting where they show no respect and dignity for patients with mental illnesses.

[CheapScotsman]

The CDN judicial system is such a quandary between really good stuff and mass ineptitude.

I have no issues with finding this guy Not Criminally Responsible. The psychiatric reports from both sides recommended this and his “sentence” might allow him to get the psychiatric help that be needs … he wouldn’t get any in a prison.

And, if he doesn’t understand what he did at the time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea#Ignorance_of_the_law_and_mens_rea) then, no, he shouldn’t have to face jail time later on

I didn’t punish my 18 month old when they “stole” a chocolate bar from the supermarket. They didn’t under the concept of theft and I didn’t punish them when they were mentally competent to understand what they did back then.

I didn’t punish my 7 year old when she copied a poem for schoolwork. She didn’t understand the concept to plagiarism and I didn’t punish her once she did understand the concept.


But the mass ineptitude part is this. As general rule, I am not confidant he will get the help he needs and this study (http://ww1.cpa-apc.org:8080/Publications/Archives/CJP/2003/july/livingston.asp Table 2) indicates, at least BC, that the max incarceration time for a psychiatric offender committing murder was less than 5 years … and the recrime rate for all psychiatric offenders is 20% within the first 2 years of release. The system (and I don't mean mental health ... I mean forensic mental health) doesn’t seem to be working very well at all.

Once can only hope that this case is so high profile that he won’t get out for many years.

[contrarymary]

Scenario 1. A mother bear and her cub are walking through the forest, doing what bears do when a woman comes along. She doesn't see the mother bear and she goes over to the cub, thinking it's so cute and heck, how often do you get to be so close to a cute cuddly little teddy bear? The mother bear sees her and does what a mother bear does when she thinks her cub is in danger. She goes over to the woman and kills her.

Along comes the forest ranger (or whatever they're called in Canada) and shoots the bear because now the bear has blood on her hands and is deemed dangerous and may kill other humans. Didn't matter that mama bear was doing what her instincts told her to do as MAN MUST PROTECT his fellow man so bye bye mama bear.

Scenario 2. A young guy is sitting on a bus, grooving to his music, minding his own business. Along comes a crazy man who slices off his head, terrorizes all of the other passengers and then proceeds to eat part of this poor unfortunate young man's head. Crazy man is apprehended and because he is crazy, he is found not guilty and his life is saved. Doesn't matter anyway because in Canada, there's no such thing as the death penalty, unless of course you're a mama bear doing what your instincts tell you to do. He's put in an institution and taken care of for the rest of his life, or he may get out if he should ever prove himself to no longer be crazy. (SHUDDERING at the thought).

Now, I'm not suggesting that an animal's life is equal to a human's life (although there are many who would argue that we're all God's creations but that's a whole other story) and I'm not a big fan of a lot of PETA's crazy actions, but what I have always found hard to understand is that supposedly human beings are MUCH smarter than animals and we know the difference between right and wrong, and it's not (I hope) one of our instincts to go around killing other people, yet when an animal does, we kill it so that we can protect people from this dangerous creature.

In the end, dead is dead and why is it wiser to protect people from dangerous animals but not from dangerous people? Obviously, my little story is not to be taken literally but is more to provoke some thought as to what man's real motives are when it comes to protecting people. I want to be protected from wild animals, but I want to be just as protected from wild people who obviously don't know the difference between right and wrong when it comes to killing people. Just saying is all.

And no, I'm not proposing that we kill all mentally ill people. I have several mentally ill people who I love (bipolar) and I have a lot of sympathy for people with mental illness but I don't have sympathy for people who kill, regardless of what their mental state is. As I said, dead is dead.

[molala]

^^I believe knowing more about schzophrenia could help to make you sound more convincing

[Allstarplaya546]

If you have the balls to dig out someones heart and EAT IT, then he deserves to be in a mental institution FOREVER!

[gordholio]

If you have the balls to dig out someones heart and EAT IT, then he deserves to be in a mental institution FOREVER!

I would have to agree with you here. No matter what his mental illness or effects from a medication, I don't think he should ever be let back into regular society.

[gordholio]

Yes you are right are per the CTO. However, it would be years until he get to that point and he could be forced back to insitutionalized if he refuse the CTO but that's yet to find out. Though he might be given an opportunity to return to the society but he would suffer many illnesses from side effects of psychiatrict drugs cos the hospital would probably give him like 30 drugs a day. I'm going to get blast on this one but inviduals with mental illness suffers big time and psychiatric drugs are the worst legalized drugs as they have many adverse effects.

EDIT: Yes, there are many great mental health professionals (which myself know many and I would love to become one!) but I have seen many health professionals (doctors, and nurses in particular) at a hospital setting where they show no respect and dignity for patients with mental illnesses.

I have a schizophrenia and depression, but I'm only on 2 medications.
You need to weigh the pros and cons of being on medication and in most cases the pros outweigh the cons.

[heymikey]

I don't want to interrupt with all this debate about mens rea or whether the verdict is the right decision, but I find this article about Windigo phenomenon (http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Features/2008/08/11/pf-6413481.html) to be interesting.

On July 20 -- just 10 days before the killing -- Li delivered copies of the Sun that contained an extensive interview with Carlson about his research into the Windigo, a terrifying creature in native mythology that has a ravenous appetite for human flesh. It could take possession of people and turn them into cannibalistic monsters.

The two-page feature talked about how, in the late 1800s and into the 20th century, Windigo "encounters" haunted communities across northern Alberta and resulted in dozens of gruesome deaths.

In one case, a Cree trapper named Swift Runner was hanged after admitting to killing and eating his wife, children, brother and mother in the woods northeast of Edmonton in the winter of 1878-79.

Prior to being charged with murder, he had suffered screaming fits and nightmares, which he attributed to being possessed by a Windigo.


I don't really believe in superstition, but man, it seems like an episode from the Twilight Zone. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendigo) are some more info on Windigo.

[molala]

I have a schizophrenia and depression, but I'm only on 2 medications.
You need to weigh the pros and cons of being on medication and in most cases the pros outweigh the cons.

They put patients in institution settings on much more medications. If I remember correctly, the 30 no. was an average no. of pills given to individuals with schzophrenia who are institutionalized. Of course there are more pros than cons for medication. But anyone given that much medication on a daily basis (regardless of psychiatric medication or not), adverse effects will definitely kick in and as well as tolerance (Ok...I'm not going in the med debate) Coping strategy win over medication anytime for individuals with mental illness

[MrDisco]

Now, I'm not suggesting that an animal's life is equal to a human's life

And yet with your parable you're comparing a seriously mentally ill person to that of an animal.


but I want to be just as protected from wild people who obviously don't know the difference between right and wrong when it comes to killing people.


And what is your solution? Lock up all who are mentally ill? Abort them when we first diagnose their condition? Do we test all citizens before they commit a crime to increase our safety?

He'll be in a secure facility. How is your life in danger once he's been committed?

but I don't have sympathy for people who kill, regardless of what their mental state is. As I said, dead is dead.

We're not savages. If a person doesn't understand their crime what type of punishment are we sending if we follow the right-wing consensus and call for his blood?
Better yet, how does killing him send a message of deterrent to other mentally ill people who may be prone to violent acts? It doesn't.

If all we're interested in is eye-for-an-eye justice then we might as well dump mental health research, get rid of the drugs, get rid of the doctors, and just open up public hanging galleries. Dundas Square perhaps?

[BornRuff]

Scenario 1. A mother bear and her cub are walking through the forest, doing what bears do when a woman comes along. She doesn't see the mother bear and she goes over to the cub, thinking it's so cute and heck, how often do you get to be so close to a cute cuddly little teddy bear? The mother bear sees her and does what a mother bear does when she thinks her cub is in danger. She goes over to the woman and kills her.

Along comes the forest ranger (or whatever they're called in Canada) and shoots the bear because now the bear has blood on her hands and is deemed dangerous and may kill other humans. Didn't matter that mama bear was doing what her instincts told her to do as MAN MUST PROTECT his fellow man so bye bye mama bear.

Scenario 2. A young guy is sitting on a bus, grooving to his music, minding his own business. Along comes a crazy man who slices off his head, terrorizes all of the other passengers and then proceeds to eat part of this poor unfortunate young man's head. Crazy man is apprehended and because he is crazy, he is found not guilty and his life is saved. Doesn't matter anyway because in Canada, there's no such thing as the death penalty, unless of course you're a mama bear doing what your instincts tell you to do. He's put in an institution and taken care of for the rest of his life, or he may get out if he should ever prove himself to no longer be crazy. (SHUDDERING at the thought).

Now, I'm not suggesting that an animal's life is equal to a human's life (although there are many who would argue that we're all God's creations but that's a whole other story) and I'm not a big fan of a lot of PETA's crazy actions, but what I have always found hard to understand is that supposedly human beings are MUCH smarter than animals and we know the difference between right and wrong, and it's not (I hope) one of our instincts to go around killing other people, yet when an animal does, we kill it so that we can protect people from this dangerous creature.

In the end, dead is dead and why is it wiser to protect people from dangerous animals but not from dangerous people? Obviously, my little story is not to be taken literally but is more to provoke some thought as to what man's real motives are when it comes to protecting people. I want to be protected from wild animals, but I want to be just as protected from wild people who obviously don't know the difference between right and wrong when it comes to killing people. Just saying is all.

And no, I'm not proposing that we kill all mentally ill people. I have several mentally ill people who I love (bipolar) and I have a lot of sympathy for people with mental illness but I don't have sympathy for people who kill, regardless of what their mental state is. As I said, dead is dead.

This is a really dumb post. Comparing mentally ill people to animals is insulting. You have no reason to make the assumption that a mama bear protecting her cubs and a mentally ill person who attacks someone are acting in any similar way. The action of killing someone is not the issue, it is the reasons they did so, and in your two examples there are huge differences in why they are acting they way they are acting.

There is a fundamental misunderstanding in this thread.

People seem so worried that this man will be walking the streets and be a danger to society. The entire point of this law is so that people who are not safe to be in society are not allowed back into society.

If he doesn't understand right from wrong, he wont be allowed back into society.

[BornRuff]

+1. He's just about as done as you get here in Canada. Any one know if he faces criminal prosecution after (if) he's cured? I thought that was a common sentencing practice?

No, the don't do that, and if you think about it, it doesn't make any sense.

He was found to be not criminally responsible for his actions. If he gets better at a future date, it doesn't somehow work retroactively to make him aware of right and wrong when he did the crime.

[danfromwaterloo]

Anybody crazy enough to chop off someone's head and eat parts of their body (presumably without a mild chianti) is certifiably rubber-room crazy.

There is a near-100 percent chance this guy will serve more time being found mentally defective than if he went to jail.

If he went to jail, he'd be sentenced to 25 years. In Canada, after 15 years you're eligible for parole review.

Going to a mental institution, he might be out tomorrow, or he might never come out. Depends on how crazy he is. The dude ate parts of the other dude. That is way f'ing crazy. He'll be in there until he dies.

Let us review the scale of crazy:

1. Posting on RFD - Normal
2. Posting about girls on RFD - Weird
3. Posting anything like Kommander Kornflakes - Crazy
4. Carrying a knife on a bus - Wacko!
5. Beheading a dude with said knife - Insane
6. Eating parts of said dude - Rubber-room only for life (ROFL)


Irrefutable logic.

[BornRuff]

Anybody crazy enough to chop off someone's head and eat parts of their body (presumably without a mild chianti) is certifiably rubber-room crazy.

There is a near-100 percent chance this guy will serve more time being found mentally defective than if he went to jail.

If he went to jail, he'd be sentenced to 25 years. In Canada, after 15 years you're eligible for parole review.

Going to a mental institution, he might be out tomorrow, or he might never come out. Depends on how crazy he is. The dude ate parts of the other dude. That is way f'ing crazy. He'll be in there until he dies.

Let us review the scale of crazy:

1. Posting on RFD - Normal
2. Posting about girls on RFD - Weird
3. Posting anything like Kommander Kornflakes - Crazy
4. Carrying a knife on a bus - Wacko!
5. Beheading a dude with said knife - Insane
6. Eating parts of said dude - Rubber-room only for life (ROFL)


Irrefutable logic.

I was just thinking this. I don't see why people in this thread have such a hard time accepting the idea that this guy is mentally ill. Anyone who knows what he did, it seems fairly likely that this guy is not right.

It also seems pretty obvious that we should have a different avenue for dealing with people who committed a crime when they were not mentally capable of determining that it was wrong, and those who break the law knowingly.

[weare3]

Welcome to Canada. Enjoy our lenient laws and feel free to commit crimes without consequences. Your local liberal activist judge won't put anyone in jail and will be happy to bail you out any day of the week.

[BornRuff]

Welcome to Canada. Enjoy our lenient laws and feel free to commit crimes without consequences. Your local liberal activist judge won't put anyone in jail and will be happy to bail you out any day of the week.

Most likely spending the rest of your life confined to an institution sounds like no consequences to you?

[molala]

Welcome to Canada. Enjoy our lenient laws and feel free to commit crimes without consequences. Your local liberal activist judge won't put anyone in jail and will be happy to bail you out any day of the week.

so you're saying you'd rather get lock up in an institute and they drug you till you numb than being in a jail where you would have more freedom?

[WontonTiger]

There seem to be a lot of people who know nothing about the law. If anything this keeps it simple and there is no long drawn out trial. He gets a life sentence without dragging the family through the horror of it all again.

except that they have to show up every year at the psychiatric review board, in order to ensure he doesn't get out.

This is the worst result for the family, as they will never be able to lay this issue to rest.

There is no right answer, however once someone has demonstrated these tendencies, I believe that their threat to society outweighs their individual rights, and they should be incarcerated. I don't believe in an eye for an eye, however sometimes punishment is more important than rehabilitation.

I don't think you can "cure" diseases like his. If he can't control it without the drugs (at least enough not to behead people), then I don't see how we can trust him to show judgment enough to stay on his meds.

[WontonTiger]

The CDN judicial system is such a quandary between really good stuff and mass ineptitude.

I have no issues with finding this guy Not Criminally Responsible. The psychiatric reports from both sides recommended this and his “sentence” might allow him to get the psychiatric help that be needs … he wouldn’t get any in a prison.

And, if he doesn’t understand what he did at the time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea#Ignorance_of_the_law_and_mens_rea) then, no, he shouldn’t have to face jail time later on

I didn’t punish my 18 month old when they “stole” a chocolate bar from the supermarket. They didn’t under the concept of theft and I didn’t punish them when they were mentally competent to understand what they did back then.

I didn’t punish my 7 year old when she copied a poem for schoolwork. She didn’t understand the concept to plagiarism and I didn’t punish her once she did understand the concept.


But the mass ineptitude part is this. As general rule, I am not confidant he will get the help he needs and this study (http://ww1.cpa-apc.org:8080/Publications/Archives/CJP/2003/july/livingston.asp Table 2) indicates, at least BC, that the max incarceration time for a psychiatric offender committing murder was less than 5 years … and the recrime rate for all psychiatric offenders is 20% within the first 2 years of release. The system (and I don't mean mental health ... I mean forensic mental health) doesn’t seem to be working very well at all.

Once can only hope that this case is so high profile that he won’t get out for many years.

What happens if you assume that there really is no cure? I think all of what you are saying is premised on the notion that he will "get better," however there is no proof of any prescription drugs "curing" mental disorders. They allow you to live with certain issues, and in most cases help the people they are meant for. In most cases the patient is in no danger of cutting someones head off, or has not demonstrated that type of horrific crime.

I think there comes a point where we need to hold someone responsible, regardless of whether he is NCR or not. This world isn't perfect, and there is no guarantee that anyone will be cured of a condition like this. He has already demonstrated his inability to control himself, and he is incapable of dealing with the type of freedom that we offer.

Hopefully he does the respectable thing and finds a way to kill himself in the institution.

We can't save everyone, and anyone who thinks so is just naive.

The entire point of this law is so that people who are not safe to be in society are not allowed back into society.

If he doesn't understand right from wrong, he wont be allowed back into society.

Where are the guarantees? Theoretically, this man could be back on the streets within 5 years.

I'm not saying prison is better, however we need to find another solution for mentally ill people who commit heinous crimes. They deserve help, but we deserve safety. Once something like that occurs, we need to consider society's needs over those of a mentally ill person (with no guarantee of rehab).

[gilboman]

What happens if you assume that there really is no cure? I think all of what you are saying is premised on the notion that he will "get better," however there is no proof of any prescription drugs "curing" mental disorders. They allow you to live with certain issues, and in most cases help the people they are meant for. In most cases the patient is in no danger of cutting someones head off, or has not demonstrated that type of horrific crime.

I think there comes a point where we need to hold someone responsible, regardless of whether he is NCR or not. This world isn't perfect, and there is no guarantee that anyone will be cured of a condition like this. He has already demonstrated his inability to control himself, and he is incapable of dealing with the type of freedom that we offer.

Hopefully he does the respectable thing and finds a way to kill himself in the institution.

We can't save everyone, and anyone who thinks so is just naive.

so you are puinishing him for being ill? what kind of backward world do you live in? comes to a point where we need to hold someone responsible even if they're not? how about you? you are as guilty as he is. or how about his parents cause they gave birth to a child with an illness?

you should be jailed before he is, cause atleast he has the excuse that he is mentally ill.

[WontonTiger]

so you are puinishing him for being ill? what kind of backward world do you live in? comes to a point where we need to hold someone responsible even if they're not? how about you? you are as guilty as he is. or how about his parents cause they gave birth to a child with an illness?

you should be jailed before he is, cause atleast he has the excuse that he is mentally ill.

You're so emotional!

There comes a point when you need to consider our needs over those of the mentally ill. If there was a miracle drug that cured all, I would donate all of my spare money to producing it. Guess what... it doesn't exist, and it won't in the near future.

Who is responsible? His mental illness? Who "carries" the mental illness? In the end, he is responsible for what he did. He may not understand what he did, and he may not have controlled what he did, but that doesn't make him less responsible in my mind. Who is responsible if he isn't (and don't say society, as that is a cop-out)?

Mental illness is a horrible thing, however if you can't control your own mind, then you are a danger to society. I don't advocate public tests, or proactive incarceration, however I do advocate lengthy incarceration once you have demonstrated that you can't control yourself.

There is so many excuses in our society. No one takes responsibility anymore, and your response highlights this. If he isn't held responsible, who is? (maybe the boy who had his head cut-off, and innards displayed for all to see. Or maybe his family, who now has to attend yearly meetings to ensure that the "mentally ill" Li doesn't see free society ever again.

This is a difficult issue. Once you've demonstrated no control over your brain (or your insane imagination in this case), you shouldn't get another chance in my world.

[gilboman]

You're so emotional!

There comes a point when you need to consider our needs over those of the mentally ill. If there was a miracle drug that cured all, I would donate all of my spare money to producing it. Guess what... it doesn't exist, and it won't in the near future.

Who is responsible? His mental illness? Who "carries" the mental illness? In the end, he is responsible for what he did. He may not understand what he did, and he may not have controlled what he did, but that doesn't make him less responsible in my mind. Who is responsible if he isn't (and don't say society, as that is a cop-out)?

Mental illness is a horrible thing, however if you can't control your own mind, then you are a danger to society. I don't advocate public tests, or proactive incarceration, however I do advocate lengthy incarceration once you have demonstrated that you can't control yourself.

There is so many excuses in our society. No one takes responsibility anymore, and your response highlights this. If he isn't held responsible, who is? (maybe the boy who had his head cut-off, and innards displayed for all to see. Or maybe his family, who now has to attend yearly meetings to ensure that the "mentally ill" Li doesn't see free society ever again.

This is a difficult issue. Once you've demonstrated no control over your brain (or your insane imagination in this case), you shouldn't get another chance in my world.

Jail is for people who make a choice to willingly and knowingly commit a crime. you don't jail mentally ill people just like you don't jail cancer patients. I have no problem with taking responsibility, but what you are advocating is just assigning blame to someone who is not responsible.

so how is Li anymore responsible than you? he didnt know what he was doing, nor was he even in control of himself. how can you assign a crime to a person when that person was not aware, nor willing nor in control of what he was doing?

and the victim's family don't have to go everywhere, where did you get that from? the victim's family don't have to go at all, if they do its their choice.

Again, you seem to not know what jails are for. they are for criminals, not for sick people.
you are also under the impression that he will be free to re-enter society if he doesnt goto jail, and also under the impression that for some reason the victim's family needs to go every year or the guy will go free.

he will only go free if he is cured which may or may not happen.

[Shaner]

Jail is for people who make a choice to willingly and knowingly commit a crime. you don't jail mentally ill people just like you don't jail cancer patients.

Again, you seem to not know what jails are for. they are for criminals, not for sick people.


Don't kid yourself, a very large number of maximum security inmates in this country have mental health issues. Some are more severe than others, but if I had to guess, I would say most max security inmates have mental health issues. We jail sick people every single day because we don't know what else to do with them. Trust me, I've seen inmates who are just as sick (if not more so) as this Li guy and many of them have been in jail for a long time. I've seen some of them bite off fingers, chew the veins and arteries right out of their arms, cut their necks, arms, legs, etc. on a regular basis. There is a lot of inmates with severe mental health issues, but the reason they are in jail and not a hospital because they are too violent to be anywhere but jail.

What I said above may also be true for medium security inmates, but I have no experience working in medium security jails so I don't want to make that assumption.

he will only go free if he is cured which may or may not happen.

I wish I could believe that the same way I wish I could believe that violent inmates are only released when they are rehabilitated, unfortunately I don't have that much faith in the system. Many of the doctors who work in these hospitals have experience with mental health issues, but they don't always have experience with manipulative, violent behaviour. Doctors tend to also be bleeding heart Liberals who want nothing more than to believe in the flawed concept of rehabilitation. Li may very well never get released to the street, but that's probably due to the high profile nature of the case. Believe me, there's many other murderers out there with severe mental health issues and they are released all the time, only to re-offend and end up in jail as opposed to a hospital. I see it all the time. They are far from cured mostly because there is no cure. You cannot cure a mental illness, you can only try to control it through therapy and medication.

[WontonTiger]

Jail is for people who make a choice to willingly and knowingly commit a crime. you don't jail mentally ill people just like you don't jail cancer patients. I have no problem with taking responsibility, but what you are advocating is just assigning blame to someone who is not responsible.

so how is Li anymore responsible than you? he didnt know what he was doing, nor was he even in control of himself. how can you assign a crime to a person when that person was not aware, nor willing nor in control of what he was doing?

and the victim's family don't have to go everywhere, where did you get that from? the victim's family don't have to go at all, if they do its their choice.

Again, you seem to not know what jails are for. they are for criminals, not for sick people.
you are also under the impression that he will be free to re-enter society if he doesnt goto jail, and also under the impression that for some reason the victim's family needs to go every year or the guy will go free.

he will only go free if he is cured which may or may not happen.

If he isn't responsible, then who is? His brain? This is all up for debate, however taking the line that "no one" is responsible is side stepping the issue. He may not have been in control of his actions, however how is that society's fault? Sometimes tragedies occur, and good people get a crappy deal, but it's better than putting society at risk.

Have you ever once visited a jail (minimum, maximum, whatever). If you had, I think you'd be of Shaner's opinion on this one. In a utopia, things would be as you say. Human's are not utopian, and we never will be. We have to come up with practical solutions, which is the real difficulty.

If the family wants to ensure that this guy stays inside the psychiatric facility, then they will need to go to every single yearly evaluation of Li, in order to ensure he doesn't get out. If they don't go, it's much easier for a panel to let things lie. It always makes an impact when the family goes (they have stated this).

[ottawasportsfan2010]

so you are puinishing him for being ill? what kind of backward world do you live in? comes to a point where we need to hold someone responsible even if they're not? how about you? you are as guilty as he is. or how about his parents cause they gave birth to a child with an illness?

you should be jailed before he is, cause atleast he has the excuse that he is mentally ill.

What about people whoa re ill and they refuse to take there meds.Should they be allowed to be out in the public.

[BornRuff]

except that they have to show up every year at the psychiatric review board, in order to ensure he doesn't get out.

This is the worst result for the family, as they will never be able to lay this issue to rest.

There is no right answer, however once someone has demonstrated these tendencies, I believe that their threat to society outweighs their individual rights, and they should be incarcerated. I don't believe in an eye for an eye, however sometimes punishment is more important than rehabilitation.

I don't think you can "cure" diseases like his. If he can't control it without the drugs (at least enough not to behead people), then I don't see how we can trust him to show judgment enough to stay on his meds.

I don't get why you don't understand this yet. He was not released back onto the street. He's in a forensic psychiatric hospital. You are right, if he can't control it, he shouldn't be back on the street. That is exactly the point of what just happened. He won't be released until he is better.

I don't really think the family would have to show up at the psychiatric review board though. What would they really be able to say to attest to his mental health?

What happens if you assume that there really is no cure? I think all of what you are saying is premised on the notion that he will "get better," however there is no proof of any prescription drugs "curing" mental disorders. They allow you to live with certain issues, and in most cases help the people they are meant for. In most cases the patient is in no danger of cutting someones head off, or has not demonstrated that type of horrific crime.

I think there comes a point where we need to hold someone responsible, regardless of whether he is NCR or not. This world isn't perfect, and there is no guarantee that anyone will be cured of a condition like this. He has already demonstrated his inability to control himself, and he is incapable of dealing with the type of freedom that we offer.

Hopefully he does the respectable thing and finds a way to kill himself in the institution.

We can't save everyone, and anyone who thinks so is just naive.



Where are the guarantees? Theoretically, this man could be back on the streets within 5 years.

I'm not saying prison is better, however we need to find another solution for mentally ill people who commit heinous crimes. They deserve help, but we deserve safety. Once something like that occurs, we need to consider society's needs over those of a mentally ill person (with no guarantee of rehab).

Why should we assume there is no cure? What kind of evidence are you basing this on?

Why are you trying to guess if and when he will get better now? That is the entire reason for the system of psychiatric review.

If he doesn't get better, he's going to be in there for life. If he dose, he shouldn't be wasting away in an institution if he really was unable to understand that what he did was wrong at the time.

You're so emotional!

There comes a point when you need to consider our needs over those of the mentally ill. If there was a miracle drug that cured all, I would donate all of my spare money to producing it. Guess what... it doesn't exist, and it won't in the near future.

Who is responsible? His mental illness? Who "carries" the mental illness? In the end, he is responsible for what he did. He may not understand what he did, and he may not have controlled what he did, but that doesn't make him less responsible in my mind. Who is responsible if he isn't (and don't say society, as that is a cop-out)?

Mental illness is a horrible thing, however if you can't control your own mind, then you are a danger to society. I don't advocate public tests, or proactive incarceration, however I do advocate lengthy incarceration once you have demonstrated that you can't control yourself.

There is so many excuses in our society. No one takes responsibility anymore, and your response highlights this. If he isn't held responsible, who is? (maybe the boy who had his head cut-off, and innards displayed for all to see. Or maybe his family, who now has to attend yearly meetings to ensure that the "mentally ill" Li doesn't see free society ever again.

This is a difficult issue. Once you've demonstrated no control over your brain (or your insane imagination in this case), you shouldn't get another chance in my world.

Luckily, this isn't your world.

You need to have some sort of understanding of these conditions before you start running your mouth off about them.

At very least, you need to have some sort of understanding of logic.

Why are you so intent to blame someone for this? It's not all about playing the blame game. That doesn't make anything better.

They are already holding societies safety over his rights, since they have just taken them away in order to take him out of society.

If he isn't responsible, then who is? His brain? This is all up for debate, however taking the line that "no one" is responsible is side stepping the issue. He may not have been in control of his actions, however how is that society's fault? Sometimes tragedies occur, and good people get a crappy deal, but it's better than putting society at risk.

Have you ever once visited a jail (minimum, maximum, whatever). If you had, I think you'd be of Shaner's opinion on this one. In a utopia, things would be as you say. Human's are not utopian, and we never will be. We have to come up with practical solutions, which is the real difficulty.

If the family wants to ensure that this guy stays inside the psychiatric facility, then they will need to go to every single yearly evaluation of Li, in order to ensure he doesn't get out. If they don't go, it's much easier for a panel to let things lie. It always makes an impact when the family goes (they have stated this).

Where did you find this info about the family needing to go every year? I don't see any reason to assume it is the same as a parole hearing.

[danfromwaterloo]

What about people whoa re ill and they refuse to take there meds.Should they be allowed to be out in the public.

Criminal negligence - they did not have a mental defect when they decided to forgo medication.

It's contrasted by drinking and driving causing death. If you're of sane mind and judgement and decide to drink and get in a car (even if you're out-of-your-mind drunk), you still made the conscious decision to lose your faculties.

Forgoing meds should be no different.

[BornRuff]

Don't kid yourself, a very large number of maximum security inmates in this country have mental health issues. Some are more severe than others, but if I had to guess, I would say most max security inmates have mental health issues. We jail sick people every single day because we don't know what else to do with them. Trust me, I've seen inmates who are just as sick (if not more so) as this Li guy and many of them have been in jail for a long time. I've seen some of them bite off fingers, chew the veins and arteries right out of their arms, cut their necks, arms, legs, etc. on a regular basis. There is a lot of inmates with severe mental health issues, but the reason they are in jail and not a hospital because they are too violent to be anywhere but jail.

What I said above may also be true for medium security inmates, but I have no experience working in medium security jails so I don't want to make that assumption.

Just because someone is mentally ill does not mean they were NCR for whatever they did to get thrown in jail. They could have developed the illness later on(Jail must be very stressful to one's psyche), or their illness did not affect their ability to determine right from wrong.

There is no reason to put people in jail because they are too violent. There is no decision made like that when a person is found NCR or not. A person who is extremely violent would probably be better of in a forensic psychiatric hospital since they would get more attention and they could provide the necessary restrictions to make sure he didn't harm anyone.



I wish I could believe that the same way I wish I could believe that violent inmates are only released when they are rehabilitated, unfortunately I don't have that much faith in the system. Many of the doctors who work in these hospitals have experience with mental health issues, but they don't always have experience with manipulative, violent behaviour. Doctors tend to also be bleeding heart Liberals who want nothing more than to believe in the flawed concept of rehabilitation. Li may very well never get released to the street, but that's probably due to the high profile nature of the case. Believe me, there's many other murderers out there with severe mental health issues and they are released all the time, only to re-offend and end up in jail as opposed to a hospital. I see it all the time. They are far from cured mostly because there is no cure. You cannot cure a mental illness, you can only try to control it through therapy and medication.

Your bias can be smelled from a mile away and it makes you sound stupid.

The doctors who work in forensic psychiatric hospitals are psychiatrists. They don't just have experience with mental health issues, that is their specialty. They specialized in forensic psychiatry, so they have tons of experience with manipulative and violent behavior. What on earth made you think otherwise?

Could you please back up your point that many murders with mental health issues are released back onto the street and re offend? A source please?

[BornRuff]

What about people whoa re ill and they refuse to take there meds.Should they be allowed to be out in the public.

If they are as ill as someone like Li, no. Hence the system of psychiatric review before any possibility of release.

[BlueMax]

Your bias can be smelled from a mile away and it makes you sound stupid.

... who's the one ignoring the glaring fact he has VERY good first-hand experience with the criminally insane? :confused:

[Shaner]

The doctors who work in forensic psychiatric hospitals are psychiatrists. They don't just have experience with mental health issues, that is their specialty. They specialized in forensic psychiatry, so they have tons of experience with manipulative and violent behavior. What on earth made you think otherwise?

Could you please back up your point that many murders with mental health issues are released back onto the street and re offend? A source please?

If doctors/psychiatrists in maximum security prisons can be easily manipulated by the inmates for drugs such as neurontin, which they use to get high and/or sell, then I have absolutely no reason to believe that doctors in hospitals can't also be manipulated. So that's what made me think otherwise.

As for your last point, I don't have to find a source, I see it on a regular basis. I'm not saying murderers with mental health issues get released and commit murder again, I'm just saying they often re-offend because they can't cope on the outside, and a lot of that has to do with their illness. There's many, many inmates where I work that have previously spent time in mental health institutions, they've been "cured", been released, re-offended and then come to jail.

I get what you're saying that just because someone has a mental health issue that doesn't mean they are NCR for their crime(s), but being NCR is often a fine line and doctors disagree with each other all the time. As for inmates being placed in jail because they are too violent to be anywhere else, sorry but that's a fact. There's so many guys in jail who don't belong in jail. They can't get the help they need in jail and eventually they will get released and they WILL re-offend. They aren't even close to being rehabilitated because it's not possible in a jail setting (and it's debatable whether it's possible in any setting). They should be in a hospital somewhere but because of their violent behaviour it's not possible. They have to be locked behind a steel door or they will hurt themselves or someone else.

[Shaner]

Your bias can be smelled from a mile away and it makes you sound stupid.



It's not bias, it's first hand experience. I socialize with these guys 40 hours per week. Trust me, what you would see in a mental health institution I also see where I work. I also see everything you don't read in the paper.

Whatever though, feel free to make claims about things you know nothing about. I stand by everything I've said in this thread and I have a very, very strong feeling you would agree 100% with what I've said if you worked even 1 year in a max security jail. You can't get all your information from the media and from textbooks, sometimes you have to experience it for yourself to get a good idea of what's happening.

[BornRuff]

It's not bias, it's first hand experience. I socialize with these guys 40 hours per week. Trust me, what you would see in a mental health institution I also see where I work. I also see everything you don't read in the paper.

Whatever though, feel free to make claims about things you know nothing about. I stand by everything I've said in this thread and I have a very, very strong feeling you would agree 100% with what I've said if you worked even 1 year in a max security jail. You can't get all your information from the media and from textbooks, sometimes you have to experience it for yourself to get a good idea of what's happening.

If doctors/psychiatrists in maximum security prisons can be easily manipulated by the inmates for drugs such as neurontin, which they use to get high and/or sell, then I have absolutely no reason to believe that doctors in hospitals can't also be manipulated. So that's what made me think otherwise.

As for your last point, I don't have to find a source, I see it on a regular basis. I'm not saying murderers with mental health issues get released and commit murder again, I'm just saying they often re-offend because they can't cope on the outside, and a lot of that has to do with their illness. There's many, many inmates where I work that have previously spent time in mental health institutions, they've been "cured", been released, re-offended and then come to jail.

I get what you're saying that just because someone has a mental health issue that doesn't mean they are NCR for their crime(s), but being NCR is often a fine line and doctors disagree with each other all the time. As for inmates being placed in jail because they are too violent to be anywhere else, sorry but that's a fact. There's so many guys in jail who don't belong in jail. They can't get the help they need in jail and eventually they will get released and they WILL re-offend. They aren't even close to being rehabilitated because it's not possible in a jail setting (and it's debatable whether it's possible in any setting). They should be in a hospital somewhere but because of their violent behaviour it's not possible. They have to be locked behind a steel door or they will hurt themselves or someone else.

Ok, can you be clear where you have worked and which setting you are talking about? It would seem very very logical that a psychiatrist in a forensic psychiatric institution is going to have more than just a bit of experience with mental health, it is their chosen specialty. I am not at all surprised that maximum security institutions are not good at dealing with mental health issues. That is exactly why I support the idea of finding people NCR and putting them in an institution that can properly deal with them, if the situation warrants it.

From what I gather you have worked as a prison guard. Have you actually worked in a forensic psychiatric hospital? If not, what makes you think that they are the same?

[Nikita]

wow, i never understood this.

just because you're mentally ill, does that mean rules don't apply to you?
This is crazy in my mind.

and my thinking is, if you're crazy enough to do something that horrific. what does it matter if you're in jail or not? will you even know the difference?

This is ********..
i feel really bad for the family of the victim.

"He will be institutionalized without a criminal record and will be reassessed every year by a mental health review board to determine if he is fit for release into the community."

"Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of evil."
Q; how can BOTH the prosecution and the defence argue the same point? isn't one supposed to argue for and one against? WTF

source;
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29530465/

You obviously don't understand the adversarial system very well. Crowns don't argue or take opposing views just for the sake of arguing or taking opposing views. The Crown's job is to prosecute only cases that have a viable chance of obtaining a conviction. Their own expert and Li's expert came to the same conclusion. If both sides have the same evidence, that he was mentally ill, there's no chance of a criminal conviction. In that case it woud be entirely inappropriate for the Crown to go to trial knowing there' NO chance of securing a conviction.

There is already a 36 page thread on this subject here:

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=617677

This is it.

Great, so if you ever commit a horrendous crime, just pretend to be crazy, and you can escape the wrath of the law.Way to go Canadian law! :rolleyes:

Pretend? LOL...many have tried, few have succeeded. Do you really think it's that easy to fool doctors into believing you're mentally ill if your not? Do you think a judge is going to just take someone's word for it that they're suffering from a mental illness. C'mon najibs you know better, red herring .

I mostly agree with your posts on here but on this it is really hard. I understand that he has not been convicted and therefore has not given up his rights and all that = not a "criminal". What I am having hard time swallowing is that Li for whatever reason brought a knife on to a bus and killed a innocent bystandard. The man has pyschological issues, and I can understand wanting to give him the oppertunity to rehabilitate but I believe that once/if he does rehabilitate he should have to pay for his abosolute hanus crime. He took a life for no reason other than his mental issues. If he ever gets out of the institution, he should pay for his crime.

The government will fund his rehabilitation, apparantly Li is "suffering" so much from his mental health that he can not be held account for his crimes, and suffers so much that if he is rehabilitated, he should be thankful for it. If he can be rehabilitated in a few year, he should be put on trial (I know this is not how the system works) and do his time.

The man whos life was taken will never get him back, and the man lost out on most of his life. Why should Li be rehabilitated and put back in to society? The life he took will never get that chance.

I agree that there is no perfect answer but rehabilitation and put back into society with no ramifications for what he has done is not the one that most would agree with. Me included. Please, feel free to correct me because I am not sure on how this works. If he is put into rehabilitation and deemed to be fit to put back into society after lets say 2 years for example, he is put back into society, correct?

So basically you're insisting on punishment for something that is not blameworthy. 'Why should he be rehabilitated and put back in to society'? Why shouldn't he if he's rehabilitated. The only answer is cuz he deserves to be punished. We, along with most civilized nations don't punish people who are not to blame for something. This isn't a case of blame, we all know who did it, but that's not assigning blame. Unfortunately or fortunately, not every wrong act is a blameworthy act.

+1. He's just about as done as you get here in Canada. Any one know if he faces criminal prosecution after (if) he's cured? I thought that was a common sentencing practice?

No, it's over except for the yearly assessment.


In the end, dead is dead and why is it wiser to protect people from dangerous animals but not from dangerous people? Obviously, my little story is not to be taken literally but is more to provoke some thought as to what man's real motives are when it comes to protecting people. I want to be protected from wild animals, but I want to be just as protected from wild people who obviously don't know the difference between right and wrong when it comes to killing people. Just saying is all.

And no, I'm not proposing that we kill all mentally ill people. I have several mentally ill people who I love (bipolar) and I have a lot of sympathy for people with mental illness but I don't have sympathy for people who kill, regardless of what their mental state is. As I said, dead is dead.

Nobody said it's 'wiser', in fact 'wise' has nothing to do with it. It has to do with what civilized nations believe is fair. And BTW, you are being protected. He's institutuionalized. I just don't get why you, or anyone for that matter, would fee better if we changed the word 'insitution' for 'prison'. We wouldn't be any more protected.

And yet with your parable you're comparing a seriously mentally ill person to that of an animal.



And what is your solution? Lock up all who are mentally ill? Abort them when we first diagnose their condition? Do we test all citizens before they commit a crime to increase our safety?

He'll be in a secure facility. How is your life in danger once he's been committed?



We're not savages. If a person doesn't understand their crime what type of punishment are we sending if we follow the right-wing consensus and call for his blood?
Better yet, how does killing him send a message of deterrent to other mentally ill people who may be prone to violent acts? It doesn't.
If all we're interested in is eye-for-an-eye justice then we might as well dump mental health research, get rid of the drugs, get rid of the doctors, and just open up public hanging galleries. Dundas Square perhaps?

Excellent post and the bolded part is an excellent point that hasn't been made yet, that I've seen anyway.

Anybody crazy enough to chop off someone's head and eat parts of their body (presumably without a mild chianti) is certifiably rubber-room crazy.

There is a near-100 percent chance this guy will serve more time being found mentally defective than if he went to jail.

If he went to jail, he'd be sentenced to 25 years. In Canada, after 15 years you're eligible for parole review.

Going to a mental institution, he might be out tomorrow, or he might never come out. Depends on how crazy he is. The dude ate parts of the other dude. That is way f'ing crazy. He'll be in there until he dies.



Now that's nothing more than a guess. We all know verrrrry few perfectly sane murderer's who have been convicted of murder and given the maximum sentence. What makes you think he'd receive a 25 year sentence. I mean c'mon isn't that one of OT's biggest complaints, that sentencing in our system is way too lenient. The post below is very representative of that sentiment on this site.

Welcome to Canada. Enjoy our lenient laws and feel free to commit crimes without consequences. Your local liberal activist judge won't put anyone in jail and will be happy to bail you out any day of the week.

[Nikita]

I think there comes a point where we need to hold someone responsible, regardless of whether he is NCR or not. This world isn't perfect, and there is no guarantee that anyone will be cured of a condition like this. He has already demonstrated his inability to control himself, and he is incapable of dealing with the type of freedom that we offer.

Hopefully he does the respectable thing and finds a way to kill himself in the institution.

We can't save everyone, and anyone who thinks so is just naive.



Where are the guarantees? Theoretically, this man could be back on the streets within 5 years.

I'm not saying prison is better, however we need to find another solution for mentally ill people who commit heinous crimes. They deserve help, but we deserve safety. Once something like that occurs, we need to consider society's needs over those of a mentally ill person (with no guarantee of rehab).

And theoretically, he could live the rest of his life in an institution.

You're so emotional!

Who is responsible? His mental illness? Who "carries" the mental illness? In the end, he is responsible for what he did. He may not understand what he did, and he may not have controlled what he did, but that doesn't make him less responsible in my mind. Who is responsible if he isn't (and don't say society, as that is a cop-out)?

No one takes responsibility anymore, and your response highlights this. If he isn't held responsible, who is? (maybe the boy who had his head cut-off, and innards displayed for all to see. Or maybe his family, who now has to attend yearly meetings to ensure that the "mentally ill" Li doesn't see free society ever again.

This is a difficult issue. Once you've demonstrated no control over your brain (or your insane imagination in this case), you shouldn't get another chance in my world.

If he isn't responsible, then who is? His brain? This is all up for debate, however taking the line that "no one" is responsible is side stepping the issue. He may not have been in control of his actions, however how is that society's fault? Sometimes tragedies occur, and good people get a crappy deal, but it's better than putting society at risk.

Have you ever once visited a jail (minimum, maximum, whatever). If you had, I think you'd be of Shaner's opinion on this one. In a utopia, things would be as you say. Human's are not utopian, and we never will be. We have to come up with practical solutions, which is the real difficulty.

If the family wants to ensure that this guy stays inside the psychiatric facility, then they will need to go to every single yearly evaluation of Li, in order to ensure he doesn't get out. If they don't go, it's much easier for a panel to let things lie. It always makes an impact when the family goes (they have stated this).

As I said above, sometimes $hit happens for whom we simply cannot assign responsibility.

And yes, I've visited jails and prisons too many times to count, sorry I don't agree with Shaner.

You are so stuck on the word 'responsibility' that I'm sure you won't even be able to comprehend my next sentence, but here goes anyway. Sometimes $hit happens and nobody's responsible. If you are so mentally ill that you can do what Li did, there's no way you can also be stable enough to be 'responsible'. Perhaps we should stop focusing so much on finding someone responsible for everything that goes on in life and use those resources to find answers. Blame serves no one in many situations. Responsbility cannot always be assigned. That's just human nature.

[CheapScotsman]

Could you please back up your point that many murders with mental health issues are released back onto the street and re offend? A source please?Not specific to murder but source is available in this post: http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8376641#post8376641

[WontonTiger]

And theoretically, he could live the rest of his life in an institution.





As I said above, sometimes $hit happens for whom we simply cannot assign responsibility.

And yes, I've visited jails and prisons too many times to count, sorry I don't agree with Shaner.

You are so stuck on the word 'responsibility' that I'm sure you won't even be able to comprehend my next sentence, but here goes anyway. Sometimes $hit happens and nobody's responsible. If you are so mentally ill that you can do what Li did, there's no way you can also be stable enough to be 'responsible'. Perhaps we should stop focusing so much on finding someone responsible for everything that goes on in life and use those resources to find answers. Blame serves no one in many situations. Responsbility cannot always be assigned. That's just human nature.

I understand your position, however I still disagree. Even if he can't mentally understand his responsibility in this, it doesn't abdicate the fact that his person (whoever/whatever was controlling him), was responsible for the boy's death. At this time, we can't cure his type of disorder. He is a high chance re-offender (if he doesn't take mass amounts of meds), and I don't want to take chances with all of our safety.

I'm not saying that I 100% believe prison is right for him, however a DO label would have saved us all a lot of trouble. While he is in prison we can continue studying causes/remedies for mental health issues, in an effort to find a cure/therapy that works the way it needs to.

What I advocate may not be legal, but I believe it makes sense in the context of a safe society.

[BornRuff]

I understand your position, however I still disagree. Even if he can't mentally understand his responsibility in this, it doesn't abdicate the fact that his person (whoever/whatever was controlling him), was responsible for the boy's death. At this time, we can't cure his type of disorder. He is a high chance re-offender (if he doesn't take mass amounts of meds), and I don't want to take chances with all of our safety.

I'm not saying that I 100% believe prison is right for him, however a DO label would have saved us all a lot of trouble. While he is in prison we can continue studying causes/remedies for mental health issues, in an effort to find a cure/therapy that works the way it needs to.

What I advocate may not be legal, but I believe it makes sense in the context of a safe society.

Why is it not just as good for him to be kept in an institution until they can prove he is safe? I feel this is much better than a jail sentence, since you can't extend a jail sentence based on the fact that the inmate has a mental illness, but you can extend their time in the institution indefinitely for this.

[molala]

I understand your position, however I still disagree. Even if he can't mentally understand his responsibility in this, it doesn't abdicate the fact that his person (whoever/whatever was controlling him), was responsible for the boy's death. At this time, we can't cure his type of disorder. He is a high chance re-offender (if he doesn't take mass amounts of meds), and I don't want to take chances with all of our safety.

I'm not saying that I 100% believe prison is right for him, however a DO label would have saved us all a lot of trouble. While he is in prison we can continue studying causes/remedies for mental health issues, in an effort to find a cure/therapy that works the way it needs to.

What I advocate may not be legal, but I believe it makes sense in the context of a safe society.


Locking him up in an insitute is equivilent to jail time for him. In fact, he might get more freedom in an actual jail than he does in the hospital. As of now, there's no medication that could cure someone 100% from Schzophrenia, and I highly doubt there would be in the next 50 years. Him or anyone would get more respect in a jail than a mental institute, so I don't know why people thinking not serving jail time is at his advantage.

[Nikita]

Locking him up in an insitute is equivilent to jail time for him. In fact, he might get more freedom in an actual jail than he does in the hospital. As of now, there's no medication that could cure someone 100% from Schzophrenia, and I highly doubt there would be in the next 50 years. Him or anyone would get more respect in a jail than a mental institute, so I don't know why people thinking not serving jail time is at his advantage.

+1! I've never understood why the terms 'prison' vs 'hospital' raises the ire of so many people. Locked up is locked up, who cares what we call the institution. As you said, and I believe I've echoed the same sentiment, it's very likely he'll spend more time 'locked up' in a psychiatic hospital than he would in a prison. I mean, after all, isn't the biggest and most oft used complaint about our system the lenient sentences.

The reason people fight so hard against a 'dangerous offender' designation is because there's no set prison time, the amount of time served will depend on when or if it's ever determined that the offender is not longer a threat to society. Indeterminate sentences are the worst, cuz they can last as long as the offender does. I feel very strongly this guy will indeed serve more time locked up than he would have if he had been sent to prison.

Personally I'm satisfied with this resolution. If some day the doctors determine he is well enough to be released and is no longer a danger to society, the system still allows for procedures to keep the offender under supervision, such as a peace bond, which has been used on occassion to retain supervision over people who have served out their full sentence (iow no parole) and would therefore come out with no supervision. A peace bond sought by police (who are the complainants in these situations) can include just about any condition, (short of custody) that the Judge deems necessary to protect the public. And it has to be renewed each year or it lapses and becomes of no force and effect. So even once out, there are ways to keep track of this guy and continue to get medical evidence of his condition on a yearly basis (or any other time that he may breach the peace bond). A breach is also a criminal offense of it's own, so a new charge, another chance to either jail him or institutionalize him if he does breach.

So basically, the Crown gets another kick at the can even after his current 'sentence' is over.

[jjfz3000]

Vince Li was found not criminally responsible for killing Tim McLean on a bus heading to Winnipeg. It is now up to Manitoba's Criminal Code review board to decide his fate.

The board is to meet next Monday to assess whether Li should be institutionalized or given a conditional release.

The board's chairman, John Stefaniuk, said making the decision public could violate Li's rights as a patient.

If anyone still think Canada's justice system makes sense then they should be institutionalized... for life.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2009/05/26/manitoba-bus-beheading052609.html#socialcomments

[gilboman]

Vince Li was found not criminally responsible for killing Tim McLean on a bus heading to Winnipeg. It is now up to Manitoba's Criminal Code review board to decide his fate.

The board is to meet next Monday to assess whether Li should be institutionalized or given a conditional release.

The board's chairman, John Stefaniuk, said making the decision public could violate Li's rights as a patient.

If anyone still think Canada's justice system makes sense then they should be institutionalized... for life.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2009/05/26/manitoba-bus-beheading052609.html#socialcomments

do you have any understanding of anything at all:confused:

or do you just not know how to read?

[deltone]

I think a conditional release is just fine. I think as long as the conditions are that he should be released to the custody of the judge, his lawyer, the lawmakers of Manitoba and Canada, on a rotating basis. They each get him, and the other insane murderers for several weeks a year. He gets to live in their home, free to wander their homes, at his leisure. With those conditions, I'm fine with his conditional release.

[time space]

If anybody qualifies for being not guilty because of insanity, this guy leads the parade. Being put in a maximum security psychiatric facility for an indefinite period (ie: forever) is arguably worse than life in prison.

[jjfz3000]

do you have any understanding of anything at all:confused:

or do you just not know how to read?

Explain your point.

[EM_K19]

This reminds me of that case with the Japanese exchange student (forgot his name) many years ago where the guy was charged with Murder and cannibalism but was let go because he was declared legally insane. He got deported back to Japan where... he is now a semi-celebrity who writes books about cannibalism and his other twisted experiences and thoughts. :lol:

[45ED]

This reminds me of that case with the Japanese exchange student (forgot his name) many years ago where the guy was charged with Murder and cannibalism but was let go because he was declared legally insane. He got deported back to Japan where... he is now a semi-celebrity who writes books about cannibalism and his other twisted experiences and thoughts. :lol:

The guy's name was Sagawa Issei. And he wasn't released because he was declared legally insane. The French government declared him legally insane, he was deported to Japan and sent to a mental institution there (ideally, to be kept away for a long time), but the French government royally fubared by not specifying how long he was supposed to stay. French government refused to give authorities in Japan the information/papers that they needed, so after a while the guy checked himself out.

Again, he would've been kept away for a long time, but legally, the authorities in Japan, given the specifics (or lack there of) of the deportation order, couldn't keep him in the institution for any real length of time.

[fakishan]

Could someone explain to us what and why the "legally insane" defence exists?

[gilboman]

Explain your point.

if you could read, you would've gotten the point that institutionalized or conditional release are the possible options, yet you choose to highlight the "Conditional Release" part for some reason?

just like in any trial, the outcome is guilty or not guilty (or deadlock), why are you emphasizing one outcome in your post?

second, it is clear the guy is mentally unstable and has mental health issues. Do you disagree with this fact? if you do not, then just like we do not disclose people's medical condition/problems to the public, why should this be any different?

[gilboman]

Could someone explain to us what and why the "legally insane" defence exists?

because some people are legally insane? do you want an explanation on why guilty and not guilty exist as well:o

[teknoluv]

I guess some here mistake justice as an eye for an eye (a.k.a. revenge). While this is okay on a personal level, society or the state can't do that. Justice is about finding the truth, and hopefully prevent history from repeating itself. Putting somebody "away" for good is only justifiable when the accused has no chance of correcting (it's the Correctional Services, remember?) AND is highly likely to re-offend a very serious crime (like murder). This Greyhound bus killing is tragic, in that the murder is CLEARLY out of his mind (insane). There's really no point in "punishing" him in any sense, BECAUSE he did NOT have any criminal intent (no motive, not provoked). It's like an accident when someone is killed by a lightning. What can you do? Curse the sky?

[CSK'sMom]

Could someone explain to us what and why the "legally insane" defence exists?

To begin with it's not legally insane, it's not criminally responsible by reason of insanity. In a nutshell it's not an easy defense to pull off. The defense team brings in their own team of professionals to access the defendant and the Crown Attorney does the same. If all agree it's fairly cut and dry and the Crown will agree to it. If all don't agree then it goes to a full trial and it ends up being expert against expert.

Now when it's successful, like in this case, it means the convicted is sent to a locked mental health facility where they receive treatment. In jail they do not receive treatment. A panel of professionals come together once a year to access the convicted person and ultimately decide whether he's ready to be released (aka treatment is working) or not. If found fit for release it's usually done under fairly strict conditions that they continue treatment through the facility, take meds, etc. They can not force treatment though and it's worth noting that. That can mean that if the convicted chooses to not take their meds, participate in treatment, etc they likely will never be released and truly serve a life sentence....

[GangStarr]

I really do not agree with the conditional release. This person should be kept in a mental institution where he can live the rest of his life monitored by doctors and therapists.

A person who has committed a sick crime like this does not deserve freedom, or conditional freedom. That is until a doctor deems him fit to re-enter society.

[Kommander_KornFlakes]

If anybody qualifies for being not guilty because of insanity, this guy leads the parade. Being put in a maximum security psychiatric facility for an indefinite period (ie: forever) is arguably worse than life in prison.

Yeah but that's not what's going to happen, he will be released to the public again, why do you think they want to keep his outcome secret from the public?

[Sepiraph]

I guess some here mistake justice as an eye for an eye (a.k.a. revenge). While this is okay on a personal level, society or the state can't do that. Justice is about finding the truth, and hopefully prevent history from repeating itself. Putting somebody "away" for good is only justifiable when the accused has no chance of correcting (it's the Correctional Services, remember?) AND is highly likely to re-offend a very serious crime (like murder). This Greyhound bus killing is tragic, in that the murder is CLEARLY out of his mind (insane). There's really no point in "punishing" him in any sense, BECAUSE he did NOT have any criminal intent (no motive, not provoked). It's like an accident when someone is killed by a lightning. What can you do? Curse the sky?

You have a very idealized view of the world. I'm not sure what version of 'Justice' people may believe, but I know the law exists to keep the criminals from roaming freely in society and causing harms. In that regard, someone who is legally insane may not be guilty but they shouldn't be allowed to be free either when they caused harms to others.

[jjfz3000]

if you could read, you would've gotten the point that institutionalized or conditional release are the possible options, yet you choose to highlight the "Conditional Release" part for some reason?

just like in any trial, the outcome is guilty or not guilty (or deadlock), why are you emphasizing one outcome in your post?

second, it is clear the guy is mentally unstable and has mental health issues. Do you disagree with this fact? if you do not, then just like we do not disclose people's medical condition/problems to the public, why should this be any different?

The fact that "conditional release" is a possible outcome is already too dangerous. The possibility is unthinkable.

If he's mentally unstable then why is "conditional release" even an option. The fact that you agree with him being unstable yet still thinking that a conditional release is a choice makes no sense.


Also, what do you think he'll do after being released? No one's going to hire him so he's going to be out on the streets...
You sound as if conditional release is just as good of a choice as placing him in a mental institution.

[teknoluv]

The fact that "conditional release" is a possible outcome is already too dangerous. The possibility is unthinkable.

If he's mentally unstable then why is "conditional release" even an option. The fact that you agree with him being unstable yet still thinking that a conditional release is a choice makes no sense.

You sound as if conditional release is just as good of a choice as placing him in a mental institution.
If you ever step back and think, that the accused is also a PATIENT, then everything will be clearer.

[gilboman]

The fact that "conditional release" is a possible outcome is already too dangerous. The possibility is unthinkable.

If he's mentally unstable then why is "conditional release" even an option. The fact that you agree with him being unstable yet still thinking that a conditional release is a choice makes no sense.

You sound as if conditional release is just as good of a choice as placing him in a mental institution.

how is it too dangerous? it is a possible outcome, you are implying that it is a PROBABLE outcome which is completely different thing altogether. its an option because again its possible that for some reason they deem him to be mentally stable now, again this is just a possible outcome, not probable.

you sound like you do not understand the world at all, ANYTHING is possible, its the probability of it that will happen is the issue. Do you know its possible, the earth could be destroyed tomorrow by aliens? or it's possible yao ming could be the a starting PG on the all star team next year:o

[gilboman]

You have a very idealized view of the world. I'm not sure what version of 'Justice' people may believe, but I know the law exists to keep the criminals from roaming freely in society and causing harms. In that regard, someone who is legally insane may not be guilty but they shouldn't be allowed to be free either when they caused harms to others.

who said they should or will:confused:

[time space]

It's like an accident when someone is killed by a lightning. What can you do? Curse the sky?
In this scenario, I believe that many here on RFD would want the death penalty for the sky.



To begin with it's not legally insane, it's not criminally responsible by reason of insanity. In a nutshell it's not an easy defense to pull off. The defense team brings in their own team of professionals to access the defendant and the Crown Attorney does the same. If all agree it's fairly cut and dry and the Crown will agree to it. If all don't agree then it goes to a full trial and it ends up being expert against expert.

Now when it's successful, like in this case, it means the convicted is sent to a locked mental health facility where they receive treatment. In jail they do not receive treatment. A panel of professionals come together once a year to access the convicted person and ultimately decide whether he's ready to be released (aka treatment is working) or not. If found fit for release it's usually done under fairly strict conditions that they continue treatment through the facility, take meds, etc. They can not force treatment though and it's worth noting that. That can mean that if the convicted chooses to not take their meds, participate in treatment, etc they likely will never be released and truly serve a life sentence....

Thank-you CSK'sMom, for this is very clear and true explanation of the situation. This thread is now over (except for the irrational ranting, of course).

[st7860]

http://www.vancouversun.com/Fate+Greyhound+passenger+killer+remain+private/1632520/story.html
The public may never learn whether a man who decapitated a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus en route to Winnipeg last summer is hospitalized or released.

Manitoba's criminal code review board meets Monday to decide whether Vince Li, who was found not criminally responsible for killing Tim McLean last July, should now be institutionalized or given a conditional or absolute discharge.


"Our current practice has been to treat the decisions as being private and only available to the parties involved and to the treatment team," said John Stefaniuk, the chairman of the review board. "However, we are aware that information in other jurisdictions is readily made available, particularly in Ontario and British Columbia."


Li said the voice of God told him to stab, behead and cannibalize McLean's body because the victim was an evil, supernatural demon that would kill him.


Testimony from two doctors said Li was suffering from a major mental illness.


Dr. Jonathan Rootenberg agreed with Dr. Stanley Yaren that, despite committing one of the most gruesome crimes in Canadian history, Li could one day be rehabilitated and returned to society.


Stefaniuk said releasing the board's decision could violate Li's rights as a patient.


"We have received some advice that the board is subject to provincial privacy legislation. So, of course, if we have advice to that effect, we're certainly going to comply with that," he said. "But we're looking to see to what extent that restricts our ability to release decisions or release reasons for decisions."


A spokeswoman for the review board said decisions are automatically released to "designated parties" which are the Crown, the treatment team, the designated hospital, the patient and his counsel.


"The family are not designated parties," said Bev Scharikow. However, she said "that is being looked into at this point. It's kind of up in the air what is going to be released."


McLean's mother has said Li should be treated as a criminal, not a patient.


Carol De Delley said that the courts should change the classification of not criminally responsible to not psychologically accountable, but still criminally responsible, "because a crime was still committed here. A murder still occurred," she said.

[jjfz3000]

how is it too dangerous? it is a possible outcome, you are implying that it is a PROBABLE outcome which is completely different thing altogether. its an option because again its possible that for some reason they deem him to be mentally stable now, again this is just a possible outcome, not probable.

you sound like you do not understand the world at all, ANYTHING is possible, its the probability of it that will happen is the issue. Do you know its possible, the earth could be destroyed tomorrow by aliens? or it's possible yao ming could be the a starting PG on the all star team next year:o

How do you prove he's mentally stable? What's the harm in putting him in prison for life? It's not like they can do anything productive given his reputation (even if he has reformed).

[jjfz3000]

http://www.vancouversun.com/Fate+Greyhound+passenger+killer+remain+private/1632520/story.html
The public may never learn whether a man who decapitated a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus en route to Winnipeg last summer is hospitalized or released.

Manitoba's criminal code review board meets Monday to decide whether Vince Li, who was found not criminally responsible for killing Tim McLean last July, should now be institutionalized or given a conditional or absolute discharge.


"Our current practice has been to treat the decisions as being private and only available to the parties involved and to the treatment team," said John Stefaniuk, the chairman of the review board. "However, we are aware that information in other jurisdictions is readily made available, particularly in Ontario and British Columbia."


Li said the voice of God told him to stab, behead and cannibalize McLean's body because the victim was an evil, supernatural demon that would kill him.


Testimony from two doctors said Li was suffering from a major mental illness.


Dr. Jonathan Rootenberg agreed with Dr. Stanley Yaren that, despite committing one of the most gruesome crimes in Canadian history, Li could one day be rehabilitated and returned to society.


Stefaniuk said releasing the board's decision could violate Li's rights as a patient.


"We have received some advice that the board is subject to provincial privacy legislation. So, of course, if we have advice to that effect, we're certainly going to comply with that," he said. "But we're looking to see to what extent that restricts our ability to release decisions or release reasons for decisions."


A spokeswoman for the review board said decisions are automatically released to "designated parties" which are the Crown, the treatment team, the designated hospital, the patient and his counsel.


"The family are not designated parties," said Bev Scharikow. However, she said "that is being looked into at this point. It's kind of up in the air what is going to be released."


McLean's mother has said Li should be treated as a criminal, not a patient.


Carol De Delley said that the courts should change the classification of not criminally responsible to not psychologically accountable, but still criminally responsible, "because a crime was still committed here. A murder still occurred," she said.

No point discharging him. Even if he's fully healed no one will hire him.

[Jabb]

No point discharging him. Even if he's fully healed no one will hire him.

Do you think Karla Hamolka has a job? I'm not saying theyre on the same level, but if she can get a job, I'm sure he can too. The gov't supplied Hamolka with a new identity, did it not?

[gilboman]

How do you prove he's mentally stable? What's the harm in putting him in prison for life? It's not like they can do anything productive given his reputation (even if he has reformed).

so you think we should just jail sick people for life instead of curing them :confused: your rationale is why have hospitals at all then? we can just jail all the sick people, since you can never prove they are disease free or are cured and they could infect the general population:o

We do not jail people for life just because they are sick.

[65505201]

so you think we should just jail sick people for life instead of curing them :confused: your rationale is why have hospitals at all then? we can just jail all the sick people, since you can never prove they are disease free or are cured and they could infect the general population:o

We do not jail people for life just because they are sick.

If someone w/ AIDS intentionally infects others, or someone with SARS intentionally spreads it around and old age home, I sure as hell hope we push for the maximum sentence.

In this case, lock the guy in a cell and throw away the key. No sense in risking another episode, especially since it's a case of random insanity. I have no problems with gang members killing each other and getting out in 10 - 20. In no way will I trust the government enough to "rehab" this person to ensure he won't pull this again.

Your comparison of mental illness to bacterial/virus sickness is laughable, but even if it holds water, I sure hope we quarantine people who are at high risk of killing/debilitating others.

P.S. Insanity or not, we must still keep an eye on the consequence of such insanity. If a guy short circuits and decides to streak the US embassy, that's one thing. Chopping someone up and eating their flesh (if I remember correctly) should warrant a much harsher sentence. I'd push for, psychiatric treatment then life w/o parole.

[Kasakato]

If someone w/ AIDS intentionally infects others, or someone with SARS intentionally spreads it around and old age home, I sure as hell hope we push for the maximum sentence.

In this case, lock the guy in a cell and throw away the key. No sense in risking another episode, especially since it's a case of random insanity. I have no problems with gang members killing each other and getting out in 10 - 20. In no way will I trust the government enough to "rehab" this person to ensure he won't pull this again.

Your comparison of mental illness to bacterial/virus sickness is laughable, but even if it holds water, I sure hope we quarantine people who are at high risk of killing/debilitating others.
Your joking, right? There is a large gap between mental illness and biological disease. If you can't recognize the difference, I don't see any point in going on.

[time space]

There is a large gap between mental illness and biological disease.

That is a highly debatable point.

[gilboman]

If someone w/ AIDS intentionally infects others, or someone with SARS intentionally spreads it around and old age home, I sure as hell hope we push for the maximum sentence.

In this case, lock the guy in a cell and throw away the key. No sense in risking another episode, especially since it's a case of random insanity. I have no problems with gang members killing each other and getting out in 10 - 20. In no way will I trust the government enough to "rehab" this person to ensure he won't pull this again.

Your comparison of mental illness to bacterial/virus sickness is laughable, but even if it holds water, I sure hope we quarantine people who are at high risk of killing/debilitating others.

P.S. Insanity or not, we must still keep an eye on the consequence of such insanity. If a guy short circuits and decides to streak the US embassy, that's one thing. Chopping someone up and eating their flesh (if I remember correctly) should warrant a much harsher sentence. I'd push for, psychiatric treatment then life w/o parole.


why bother with treatment at all then, since even if they are cured you want them to stay in jail for life? and you seem say INTENT to spread Aids/Sars.. yet are you saying this guy intended to kill? if so, then he's criminally responsible and not insane:o

so by your reasoning, we should quarantine people for life who HAD SARS or any other communicable disease? since you do not think its possible for people to be cured? for what you are saying to make any sense whatsoever, you have to agree that people with disease/illness can never be cured and its safer to just keep them jailed up for life regardless.

i guess we should jail people with colds for life as well then? you have completely missed the point. Nobody is saying let a sick/mentally ill patient like the guy in question walk free into society unless he is mentally stable. Or you can not fathom the idea that some people do get well from their illlness, and if they do get well, we shouldn't jail them any longer

[teknoluv]

What's the harm in putting him in prison for life? It's not like they can do anything productive given his reputation (even if he has reformed).

No point discharging him. Even if he's fully healed no one will hire him.
Our fathers (or grandfathers) used to think and act like that. Sorry to say but you probably missed the last 50 years. Where were you?

[teknoluv]

If someone w/ AIDS intentionally infects others, or someone with SARS intentionally spreads it around and old age home, I sure as hell hope we push for the maximum sentence.
Intentionally? That is called MURDER, and we actually have a precedent here in Canada with a guy convicted of first degree murder for knowingly transmitting HIV to his unknowing sexual partners.

Your comparison of mental illness to bacterial/virus sickness is laughable
Honestly, you really need to update your archaic "knowledge" about mental illness.

[Kasakato]

That is a highly debatable point.

Perhaps within your own head. The law is fairly clear in how mental vs biological illness is treated. The defense of not criminally responsible was not created overnight.

[Nikita]

Could someone explain to us what and why the "legally insane" defence exists?

CSK has well explained the 'what', the 'why' is because we don't punish people for acts they don't intend. And if one is deemed NCR because they are mentally ill, it means they can't form the intent required for their act to be considered a crime. There are two basic elements to every criminal offense, the act and the intent. Both have to be present for a conviction. No intent, no criminal responsibilty.

Yeah but that's not what's going to happen, he will be released to the public again, why do you think they want to keep his outcome secret from the public?

Because medical records are confidential in this country.

The fact that "conditional release" is a possible outcome is already too dangerous. The possibility is unthinkable.

If he's mentally unstable then why is "conditional release" even an option. The fact that you agree with him being unstable yet still thinking that a conditional release is a choice makes no sense.


Also, what do you think he'll do after being released? No one's going to hire him so he's going to be out on the streets...
You sound as if conditional release is just as good of a choice as placing him in a mental institution.

And you sound like a conditional release is the same as being set free...it's not.

Do you think Karla Hamolka has a job? I'm not saying theyre on the same level, but if she can get a job, I'm sure he can too. The gov't supplied Hamolka with a new identity, did it not?

Umm, no, she changed her own name and left the country.

[Mach]

Umm, no, she changed her own name and left the country.

Really? I remember when she was on parole and lived in Montreal? Or some place near there.

So if she moves into another country, are the local authorities aware that she's living there amongst them? Don't they have some sort of notice of dangerous offenders? I think that's how it is with pedophiles and such, I dunno if it applies to her.

[st7860]

Really? I remember when she was on parole and lived in Montreal? Or some place near there.

So if she moves into another country, are the local authorities aware that she's living there amongst them? Don't they have some sort of notice of dangerous offenders? I think that's how it is with pedophiles and such, I dunno if it applies to her.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Homolka
Karla Leanne Homolka, also known as Karla Leanne Teale, (born 4 May, 1970 in Port Credit, Ontario, Canada), is a Canadian serial killer[2] who attracted worldwide media attention when she was convicted of manslaughter in the rape-murders of two teenaged girls; her husband, Paul Bernardo, was convicted of their murders and admitted having raped numerous women.

Homolka and Bernardo also were responsible for the rape and death of her sister Tammy.[3] In return for her confession and testimony against her husband, she was given a plea bargain whereby she escaped the maximum penalty for her crimes. She pleaded guilty to manslaughter and served 12 years in prison. She may now possibly live in a publicly undisclosed location in the Antilles with her son.

[Nikita]

Really? I remember when she was on parole and lived in Montreal? Or some place near there.

So if she moves into another country, are the local authorities aware that she's living there amongst them? Don't they have some sort of notice of dangerous offenders? I think that's how it is with pedophiles and such, I dunno if it applies to her.

Yes, she did live in Montreal for a few years after her release, but she then left the country and, though I don't know exactly where she's living now (nor do I care so long as it's not next door to me...lol) I believe she moved to the Bahamas and then to the Antilles.

I really don't know if the local authorities are notified tbh. Considering she wasn't on parole and served her full sentence, nor was she under any peace bond conditions, our government probably has no obligation to inform other countries of her presence, and I doubt they even keep track of where she is. I'm not even sure if they're permitted to do so (interesting question Mach, I may just check out if we have any international treaties dealing with this type of issue).

And, w/o checking, I believe she was convicted prior to Canada having a sex offender registry, so she may not even be on it.

Sorry, I know that's not very helpful and is mostly just my own speculation, but yeah now you've got my inquiring mind wanting to inquire....lol. If I do, I'll post back.

[gordholio]

What if this guy breaks down again and chops someone else's head off?
I don't dismiss that he has a mental illness, but he should still be accountable for his actions to some extent (for the protection of society).
I have a mental illness, so I can relate to a certain extent to his position (although I could never even imagine in my most insane moments of ever killing someone).

[65505201]

Nobody is saying let a sick/mentally ill patient like the guy in question walk free into society unless he is mentally stable. Or you can not fathom the idea that some people do get well from their illlness, and if they do get well, we shouldn't jail them any longer

How do you gauge mental stability? If someone's mental illness progressively got worse (from inconsequential to minor/property damage) and then progressively got better with treatment, I have no problems with letting them roam free.

Now, unless I'm forgetting something here, this guy suddenly snapped, going from "stable" to "insane" in a split second - with little to no warning. In such a case, one can follow him for 5 years, see no problems, only to see him knife another person at 5 years + 1 day.

To others, yes, I understand that mental issues are an illness, but when you have such a heinous crime, it should be punished to the maximum extent possible with no discounts for mental illnesses. I mean, do you think the next stabbing victim would think, "o, he has a mental issue. I guess that's ok, because if he was mentally stable, i'd be royally pissed"?

[Kasakato]

How do you gauge mental stability? If someone's mental illness progressively got worse (from inconsequential to minor/property damage) and then progressively got better with treatment, I have no problems with letting them roam free.

Now, unless I'm forgetting something here, this guy suddenly snapped, going from "stable" to "insane" in a split second - with little to no warning. In such a case, one can follow him for 5 years, see no problems, only to see him knife another person at 5 years + 1 day.

To others, yes, I understand that mental issues are an illness, but when you have such a heinous crime, it should be punished to the maximum extent possible with no discounts for mental illnesses. I mean, do you think the next stabbing victim would think, "o, he has a mental issue. I guess that's ok, because if he was mentally stable, i'd be royally pissed"?

You make it sound as if he was found not guilty and will be back in the public tomorrow. A finding of not criminally responsible still indicates that he was found to have committed the crime. However due to the lack of mens rea, intent, the law cannot proceed with a normal course of sentencing. How the review board decides to continue is anyways guess.

[65505201]

Honestly, you really need to update your archaic "knowledge" about mental illness.

Please enlighten me as to how knowing the severely mentally ill patient was stable 10 minutes ago, but is now attacking me with a knife makes it all better?

I'll say this again. I'm perfectly fine if someone snaps, decides to streak down Yonge St. yelling profanities to little children, and is placed on medication. But knifing some random person and picking out body parts? No thanks. I don't trust the government enough (especially since they're ultimately not responsible for any fallout) to certify someone as "cured" or "stabilized."

[65505201]

You make it sound as if he was found not guilty and will be back in the public tomorrow. A finding of not criminally responsible still indicates that he was found to have committed the crime. However due to the lack of mens rea, intent, the law cannot proceed with a normal course of sentencing. How the review board decides to continue is anyways guess.

I guess the ultimate question some of you need to ask yourselves is, would I want this guy living near my parents/SO/children when he is deemed "rehabilitated."

I would much rather have a rehabbed 1st degree murderer, drug addict, or alcoholic living close by. At least there is some logic or pattern to their behavior.

[gilboman]

To others, yes, I understand that mental issues are an illness, but when you have such a heinous crime, it should be punished to the maximum extent possible with no discounts for mental illnesses. I mean, do you think the next stabbing victim would think, "o, he has a mental issue. I guess that's ok, because if he was mentally stable, i'd be royally pissed"?

:confused: are you serious?

if someone was driving a car and has a heart attack and kills someone in the process, they should be treated same as 1st degree murder?
do you even know how the justice system works? with your way of thinking, you really should live in afghanistan or any of the other backwards places in the world where they stone woman and let people carry out honour killings

all you want is blood, eye for an eye. I guess you also think tougher sentences does anything to deter crime as well? LOL

[st7860]

http://www.johnhoward.ca/

[65505201]

:confused: are you serious?

if someone was driving a car and has a heart attack and kills someone in the process, they should be treated same as 1st degree murder?
do you even know how the justice system works? with your way of thinking, you really should live in afghanistan or any of the other backwards places in the world where they stone woman and let people carry out honour killings

all you want is blood, eye for an eye. I guess you also think tougher sentences does anything to deter crime as well? LOL

Are you seriously comparing mental instability to heart attacks? And no, while I wouldn't support a 1st degree murder charge, if grandpa is on a ventilator with 10 different kinds of medication, I certainly wouldn't want him on the roads (the equivalent of jailing this murderer indefinitely) or operating any kind of heavy machinery. Same goes for narcoleptics. It's not their fault, right? :rolleyes:

No one has answered my question thus far: is treatment forcedfor however long necessary, what is the test to guarantee "stability", and who is responsible if he snaps again in x years + 1 day?

If the psychiatrists are criminally liable for anything their rehab patient does, I would have no problems with this. However, I highly doubt that is the case.

[Kasakato]

I guess the ultimate question some of you need to ask yourselves is, would I want this guy living near my parents/SO/children when he is deemed "rehabilitated."

I would much rather have a rehabbed 1st degree murderer, drug addict, or alcoholic living close by. At least there is some logic or pattern to their behavior.

Again, he may never recover to a level where he will be discharged. The law specifies that he maybe kept detained for a maximum period of life. Mental disorders are very specialized and require experts advisory. I have no idea how schizophrenia is cured, or if it is ever really cured. I do however know that simply because one has a mental disorder, they are not an automatic right-off to society. For example, John F Nash suffered from schizophrenia, yet was still able to accomplish some amazing things.

[65505201]

I do however know that simply because one has a mental disorder, they are not an automatic right-off to society.

I don't think I have ever said the mentally ill (of whatever severity) are an automatic write-off to society. However, if one can suddenly and uncontrollably devolve to such violent behavior, I seriously question the criteria to gauge stability, and how much responsibility the judge/doc takes for signing the release papers.

As for the other aspect (punishment for the crime), we have different ingrained viewpoints that I don't think can be resolved. We simply come from different viewpoints of how much control one has when it comes to mental issues, and how much responsibility one should take for resulting actions.

To give an example, I agreed to go to the ROM with my parents after no sleep the night before. I was running at 40 hours and could sorta tell my mental faculties were degrading as the day wore on. At some point in one of the exhibits, I snapped and thought it'd be funny to pretend to smack one of the figurines. I immediately realized what a completely unacceptable thing it was to do, and if I was kicked out/fined/whatever, I would have no problems eating the full punishment. Luckily for me, I didn't actually make contact with anything. I still had a shred of sense not to touch the exhibit.

To be honest, if I had snapped like this guy did, I would voluntarily sit in jail the rest of my life. That or forced labor at a charity like habitat for humanity, thought I don't know if I would trust myself around powertools.

[time space]

To give an example, I agreed to go to the ROM with my parents...

Perhaps next time you could ask your parents to take you to the library and help you to find some books to read about mental illness and the Canadian justice system.

[teknoluv]

Please enlighten me as to how knowing the severely mentally ill patient was stable 10 minutes ago, but is now attacking me with a knife makes it all better?

I'll say this again. I'm perfectly fine if someone snaps, decides to streak down Yonge St. yelling profanities to little children, and is placed on medication. But knifing some random person and picking out body parts? No thanks. I don't trust the government enough (especially since they're ultimately not responsible for any fallout) to certify someone as "cured" or "stabilized."
Sorry, I didn't know I was talking to a kid. Forget it.

[Kasakato]

The guy is forced to take responsibility. Hes being detained in a hospital. Whats the problem?

Perhaps next time you could ask your parents to take you to the library and help you to find some books to read about mental illness and the Canadian justice system.

I leave it at that. :lol:

[BornRuff]

I don't think I have ever said the mentally ill (of whatever severity) are an automatic write-off to society. However, if one can suddenly and uncontrollably devolve to such violent behavior, I seriously question the criteria to gauge stability, and how much responsibility the judge/doc takes for signing the release papers.

As for the other aspect (punishment for the crime), we have different ingrained viewpoints that I don't think can be resolved. We simply come from different viewpoints of how much control one has when it comes to mental issues, and how much responsibility one should take for resulting actions.

To give an example, I agreed to go to the ROM with my parents after no sleep the night before. I was running at 40 hours and could sorta tell my mental faculties were degrading as the day wore on. At some point in one of the exhibits, I snapped and thought it'd be funny to pretend to smack one of the figurines. I immediately realized what a completely unacceptable thing it was to do, and if I was kicked out/fined/whatever, I would have no problems eating the full punishment. Luckily for me, I didn't actually make contact with anything. I still had a shred of sense not to touch the exhibit.

To be honest, if I had snapped like this guy did, I would voluntarily sit in jail the rest of my life. That or forced labor at a charity like habitat for humanity, thought I don't know if I would trust myself around powertools.

These bold pats show a large amount of ignorance of these issues. Being tired and having a mental illness are two very different things, they are not an appropriate comparison.

The part where you realized what you were doing was wrong while doing it is essentially the deciding factor of a NCR decision. You knew what you were doing wrong, so it is perfectly reasonable for you to be punished in the normal way for these crimes. If someone had asked you before, during, or after that incident, you would have been able to tell them definitively that knocking over things in a museum is wrong. Just because you almost forgot about that in that one moment doesn't mean you were NCR.

The decision of NCR is made if it is determined that the perpetrator did not understand that what they were doing was wrong. That doesn't mean they did something like you almost did, where you just didn't think about your actions, it means the person genuinely could not comprehend that what they were doing was wrong. Having a mental illness doesn't in any way mean you automatically get an NCR verdict, many many people with mental illnesses get sent to normal prisons.

[WontonTiger]

I guess none of you would have a problem with your kids riding on the greyhound with Vincent after he is released.

I may not understand all of the studies behind mental illnesses, however I do know from my experience that they are often used as an excuse, or a way to "write-off" blame for something. Vincent Li is a danger to society. Based on the way our current laws are written, he could do this again. If he was released, and decided to not take his meds, whats to stop this from happening again?

I repeat, "I guess none of you would have a problem with your kids riding on the greyhound with Vincent after he is released."

Idealism is wonderful when it's theoretical, however this guy is crazy, and should not be released from prison. Mental health issues need to take a backseat to public safety. They are unpredictable, and can never truly be controlled (from what doctors and studies say). The fact is that if the drugs aren't taken, we are all at risk.

I'm a libertarian, and pride myself on respecting individual liberties. This guy should be locked away forever. There is no cure to his type of crazy, regardless of what the shrinks and pharmaceutical companies will tell you.

You guys all circle jerk eachother into thinking you're so educated and learned, when you espouse such a risky proposition. Harsher sentences reduce crime by keeping criminals off the street. I don't see how you can argue with that. It may not stop an unknown criminal from doing what he will, however once he is caught, he won't have the chance to do it again.

Timespace and Teknoluv are particularly self-righteous, and marginalize the other posters opinion because they are "older and wiser." You two should get some "real" education yourselves.

If Vincent Li is a danger to society, he needs to be kept under lock and key.

[BornRuff]

I guess none of you would have a problem with your kids riding on the greyhound with Vincent after he is released.

I may not understand all of the studies behind mental illnesses, however I do know from my experience that they are often used as an excuse, or a way to "write-off" blame for something. Vincent Li is a danger to society. Based on the way our current laws are written, he could do this again. If he was released, and decided to not take his meds, whats to stop this from happening again?

I repeat, "I guess none of you would have a problem with your kids riding on the greyhound with Vincent after he is released."

Idealism is wonderful when it's theoretical, however this guy is crazy, and should not be released from prison. Mental health issues need to take a backseat to public safety. They are unpredictable, and can never truly be controlled (from what doctors and studies say). The fact is that if the drugs aren't taken, we are all at risk.

I'm a libertarian, and pride myself on respecting individual liberties. This guy should be locked away forever. There is no cure to his type of crazy, regardless of what the shrinks and pharmaceutical companies will tell you.

You guys all circle jerk eachother into thinking you're so educated and learned, when you espouse such a risky proposition. Harsher sentences reduce crime by keeping criminals off the street. I don't see how you can argue with that. It may not stop an unknown criminal from doing what he will, however once he is caught, he won't have the chance to do it again.

Timespace and Teknoluv are particularly self-righteous, and marginalize the other posters opinion because they are "older and wiser." You two should get some "real" education yourselves.

If Vincent Li is a danger to society, he needs to be kept under lock and key.

This really shows your profound misunderstanding of this case. Nobody in this thread is arguing to release Vincent Lee, the only argument is how he is dealt with while he is locked away from society.

I think there are certainly many points of debate within the mental health system in our country. I personally think though, that it is a no brainer that people who commit crimes who have the mental ability to understand that what they did was wrong, and those who do not, need to be dealt with differently. It is not safe for society, and it is not safe to people within the conventional prison system.

If you want to take public safety into account, I feel that the NCR verdict is the best way to do so. Under a criminal conviction, decisions are made based on things like good behavior, not their mental health. Their mental health issues are really the root of their danger to society, so those are what need to be most closely examined to ensure everyone's safety.

[gilboman]

I guess none of you would have a problem with your kids riding on the greyhound with Vincent after he is released.

I may not understand all of the studies behind mental illnesses, however I do know from my experience that they are often used as an excuse, or a way to "write-off" blame for something. Vincent Li is a danger to society. Based on the way our current laws are written, he could do this again. If he was released, and decided to not take his meds, whats to stop this from happening again?

I repeat, "I guess none of you would have a problem with your kids riding on the greyhound with Vincent after he is released."

Idealism is wonderful when it's theoretical, however this guy is crazy, and should not be released from prison. Mental health issues need to take a backseat to public safety. They are unpredictable, and can never truly be controlled (from what doctors and studies say). The fact is that if the drugs aren't taken, we are all at risk.

I'm a libertarian, and pride myself on respecting individual liberties. This guy should be locked away forever. There is no cure to his type of crazy, regardless of what the shrinks and pharmaceutical companies will tell you.

You guys all circle jerk eachother into thinking you're so educated and learned, when you espouse such a risky proposition. Harsher sentences reduce crime by keeping criminals off the street. I don't see how you can argue with that. It may not stop an unknown criminal from doing what he will, however once he is caught, he won't have the chance to do it again.

Timespace and Teknoluv are particularly self-righteous, and marginalize the other posters opinion because they are "older and wiser." You two should get some "real" education yourselves.

If Vincent Li is a danger to society, he needs to be kept under lock and key.

those bolded parts clearly indicate you have no idea what reality is or have an understanding of society; or what is real and what is fantasy. Perhaps you need to be kept under lock and key..LOL

[teknoluv]

Timespace and Teknoluv are particularly self-righteous, and marginalize the other posters opinion because they are "older and wiser." You two should get some "real" education yourselves.
Read.

[time space]

This guy should be locked away forever.

That is exactly what is going to happen in this case.

[BornRuff]

You guys all circle jerk eachother into thinking you're so educated and learned, when you espouse such a risky proposition. Harsher sentences reduce crime by keeping criminals off the street. I don't see how you can argue with that. It may not stop an unknown criminal from doing what he will, however once he is caught, he won't have the chance to do it again.

If it were that simple, why don't we just double the length of all sentences right now? Wouldn't that make the world a better place?

[Nikita]

How do you gauge mental stability? If someone's mental illness progressively got worse (from inconsequential to minor/property damage) and then progressively got better with treatment, I have no problems with letting them roam free.

Who knows how you gauge mental stability? Doctors do. I don't know how, you don't know how, but I don't expect that just because I'm not medically educated enough to understand how mental stability is guaged, that it can't be done. I'm sure you'd have to agree that you or me or joe blow not understanding how something is done, doesn't mean it can't be done.

Now, unless I'm forgetting something here, this guy suddenly snapped, going from "stable" to "insane" in a split second - with little to no warning. In such a case, one can follow him for 5 years, see no problems, only to see him knife another person at 5 years + 1 day.

To others, yes, I understand that mental issues are an illness, but when you have such a heinous crime, it should be punished to the maximum extent possible with no discounts for mental illnesses. I mean, do you think the next stabbing victim would think, "o, he has a mental issue. I guess that's ok, because if he was mentally stable, i'd be royally pissed"?

I can understand people's fear and concern for their safety and that of others, but I can't agree that punishment is the answer. It doesn't solve anything AT ALL if you're mentally ill. And it's just plain wrong to 'punish' somebody for something they didn't intend to do, didn't understand and, mostly, couldn't/can't control. How does punishment help anybody in this situation. All it does is satisfy an urge for revenge and I personally don't encourage revenge. In any event, simply put, punishment accomplishes nothing...for anybody.

[JAC]

I can understand people's fear and concern for their safety and that of others, but I can't agree that punishment is the answer. It doesn't solve anything AT ALL if you're mentally ill. And it's just plain wrong to 'punish' somebody for something they didn't intend to do, didn't understand and, mostly, couldn't/can't control. How does punishment help anybody in this situation. All it does is satisfy an urge for revenge and I personally don't encourage revenge. In any event, simply put, punishment accomplishes nothing...for anybody.
Fine, call it prevention, then. As long as the dangerous nutcases are locked up for good, the semantics don't bother me.

[st7860]

Fine, call it prevention, then. As long as the dangerous nutcases are locked up for good, the semantics don't bother me.

I hereby and solemnly declare +1

[WontonTiger]

This really shows your profound misunderstanding of this case. Nobody in this thread is arguing to release Vincent Lee, the only argument is how he is dealt with while he is locked away from society.

I think there are certainly many points of debate within the mental health system in our country. I personally think though, that it is a no brainer that people who commit crimes who have the mental ability to understand that what they did was wrong, and those who do not, need to be dealt with differently. It is not safe for society, and it is not safe to people within the conventional prison system.

If you want to take public safety into account, I feel that the NCR verdict is the best way to do so. Under a criminal conviction, decisions are made based on things like good behavior, not their mental health. Their mental health issues are really the root of their danger to society, so those are what need to be most closely examined to ensure everyone's safety.

To be honest, I don't really care what happens to him, as long as he is separate from society. If that means providing him with mental health assistance, I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with him possibly being released, at any point, ever. His crime was so heinous, and so random, that his being in society is a danger to everyone. Mental Health is still not an exact science, which means you can't "cure" someone of a disease. You can support them, and provide meds, however you can't protect society from what could happen (based on previously demonstrated events).

NCR leaves the option of him being released. If he was convicted and a Dangerous Offender status was applied, he would never be released. What's to say Bernardo wasn't "mentally ill." Why is he in prison for life, yet this guy may be let out. I personally believe anyone who can do what either of them have done is considered "mentally ill" in my mind.

I'm all for human rights, however if "you" can't control "your" own faculties, then are they really "you're" rights to lose? If "you're" not in control, how can "you" have "rights?" These are the questions that really cloud the issue for me. If it's not really "you."

[WontonTiger]

those bolded parts clearly indicate you have no idea what reality is or have an understanding of society; or what is real and what is fantasy. Perhaps you need to be kept under lock and key..LOL

Argue against the logic of my statement?

Here is a case study (quick and simple, so it should make sense to you).

Situation 1: Convict A murders Mr. B in cold blood. We don't know for sure if he may re-offend. We put him in jail for life (literally). His chances of re-offense are what??? (Zero for math-illiterate).

Situation 2: Convict A murders Mr. B in cold blood. We don't know for sure if he may re-offend. We put him in jail for 5-10 years. His chances of re-offense are what??? (unpredictable, has to be based on subjective information).

So then... how am I wrong? Either you don't understand what I wrote, or you're purposefully mis-representing yourself to impress people who can't think logically?

How is situation 1 more likely to re-offend? How is it possible that situation 2 is less likely to re-offend (on a general basis)?

Really think about it...

P.S. If you're going to quote me, at least include THE WHOLE point, rather than a snippit that suits your purposes. You didn't even bold the whole quote...

[BornRuff]

To be honest, I don't really care what happens to him, as long as he is separate from society. If that means providing him with mental health assistance, I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with him possibly being released, at any point, ever. His crime was so heinous, and so random, that his being in society is a danger to everyone. Mental Health is still not an exact science, which means you can't "cure" someone of a disease. You can support them, and provide meds, however you can't protect society from what could happen (based on previously demonstrated events).

NCR leaves the option of him being released. If he was convicted and a Dangerous Offender status was applied, he would never be released. What's to say Bernardo wasn't "mentally ill." Why is he in prison for life, yet this guy may be let out. I personally believe anyone who can do what either of them have done is considered "mentally ill" in my mind.

I'm all for human rights, however if you can't control your own facultys, then are they really your rights to lose? If your not in control, how can you have "rights?" These are the questions that really cloud the issue for me.

It certainly isn't for you to say if he was mentally ill or not. I think it is very safe for me to assume that you have never even met either of these people, much less preformed any sort of psychological assessment on them. Then there is the issue of your lack of training in either psychology or psychiatry.

Point being, there certainly are people who can decide if someone is mentally ill. Our legal system should not be based on your ignorance of the issues. Someone could easily do what either of those people did without being clinically mentally ill. There is a difference between doing things that you think are "insane" and actually being insane.

[teknoluv]

So then... how am I wrong? Either you don't understand what I wrote, or you're purposefully mis-representing yourself to impress people who can't think logically?
Let me tell you how you are wrong. You sound like your so-called "arguments" are "logical", but the truth is, you lack even the entry level subject-specific understanding of e.g. mental illness or criminal law to discuss. A LOT of experts have spent their lifetimes on these disciplines to establish knowledge bases that LAYMEN like you and me will take months or years just to get a glimpse. I have done my part, how about you?

[WontonTiger]

It certainly isn't for you to say if he was mentally ill or not. I think it is very safe for me to assume that you have never even met either of these people, much less preformed any sort of psychological assessment on them. Then there is the issue of your lack of training in either psychology or psychiatry.

Point being, there certainly are people who can decide if someone is mentally ill. Our legal system should not be based on your ignorance of the issues. Someone could easily do what either of those people did without being clinically mentally ill. There is a difference between doing things that you think are "insane" and actually being insane.

There is a reason why many consider psychology and psychiatry to be pseudo-sciences, as many of their theories aren't based on substantive evidence. It's also a very new type of science, so I don't believe it is infallible. You can see this in the wild variance of evaluations that psychology and psychiatry produce. If it were so simple, then all of these people would agree.

I understand your point, however I don't place as much credence into their decisions as many others do. Regardless, someone has to be accountable, and even if we attribute the issues to a specific part of someone's brain, it's still their brain.

The human brain is still largely a mystery. I don't claim to be an expert, however that is the way I feel, and what I chose to believe (based on my observations).

I'll agree to disagree. Big Pharma will continue to tell us that we can't control ourselves, and we need their drugs to correct our "imbalances."

You don't always have to go along with the status quo, and I doubt any of you understand these "sciences" enough to actively argue their merits. You can trust the "experts" if you like, however they won't keep you safe from people like Vincent Li.

<let the rips begin>

[Nikita]

To be honest, I don't really care what happens to him, as long as he is separate from society. If that means providing him with mental health assistance, I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with him possibly being released, at any point, ever. His crime was so heinous, and so random, that his being in society is a danger to everyone. Mental Health is still not an exact science, which means you can't "cure" someone of a disease. You can support them, and provide meds, however you can't protect society from what could happen (based on previously demonstrated events).

NCR leaves the option of him being released. If he was convicted and a Dangerous Offender status was applied, he would never be released. What's to say Bernardo wasn't "mentally ill." Why is he in prison for life, yet this guy may be let out. I personally believe anyone who can do what either of them have done is considered "mentally ill" in my mind.


I'm all for human rights, however if "you" can't control "your" own faculties, then are they really "you're" rights to lose? If "you're" not in control, how can "you" have "rights?" These are the questions that really cloud the issue for me. If it's not really "you."

Actually a Dangerous Offender designation does not get one a life sentence or a sentence whereby 'he would never be released' and, just as an NCR defendant, leaves the option of him being released. It results in an indeterminate sentence and the offender can be released on parole. After a minimum of 7 years the offender gets a parole hearing and (if refused) each two years after that. So it's really no better guarantee than an indeterminate sentence at a medical institution. In fact, it's a worse option IMO because should the offender be released, they've had no psychiatric help, they're not on meds, they've spent however many years they were locked up with a bunch of criminals...in other words there's a much stronger chance a DO who is released will re-offend if/when released due to a lack of medical supervision than if his indeterminate sentence was served in a psychiatric institution.

[BornRuff]

There is a reason why many consider psychology and psychiatry to be pseudo-sciences, as many of their theories aren't based on substantive evidence. It's also a very new type of science, so I don't believe it is infallible. You can see this in the wild variance of evaluations that psychology and psychiatry produce. If it were so simple, then all of these people would agree.

I understand your point, however I don't place as much credence into their decisions as many others do. Regardless, someone has to be accountable, and even if we attribute the issues to a specific part of someone's brain, it's still their brain.

The human brain is still largely a mystery. I don't claim to be an expert, however that is the way I feel, and what I chose to believe (based on my observations).

Which theories are you talking about that are not based on substantive evidence? It is not helpful to make such vague generalizations. Both professions exist within the conventional academic world and conform to established research methods.

Disagreement obviously exists within the field, but in this case, separate teams of experts for both the prosecution and defense evaluated him and came to the same conclusion, so I'm very confident in this decision.

I'll agree to disagree. Big Pharma will continue to tell us that we can't control ourselves, and we need their drugs to correct our "imbalances."

You lack a fundamental understanding of what mental illness is. I think you really need to gain experience with people who have a serious mental illness to understand this.

For example, depression is not the same as being sad. If you ever knew someone who was clinically depressed, that would become acutely aware to you.

The opinion of the people best equipped to judge this is that this guy did not just decide that he wanted to dismember a guy, he thought that God told him to do it. You don't just decide you want to hear voices in your head, and you can't just decide to turn them off.

You don't always have to go along with the status quo, and I doubt any of you understand these "sciences" enough to actively argue their merits. You can trust the "experts" if you like, however they won't keep you safe from people like Vincent Li.

<let the rips begin>

Well, at this very minute, they are keeping him off the streets because he is a danger to society, so they seem to be doing a pretty good job keeping us safe from Li.

[st7860]

http://www.theprovince.com/Health/killer+fate+made+public/1640420/story.html
WINNIPEG — The fate of a man who beheaded a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus likely will be made public after all.


Despite some initial concerns that the media would not be allowed to report on whether Vince Li will be confined to a mental hospital or released into the community, Manitoba's Criminal Code Review Board is now reviewing legal opinions and expects to find a way to balance public interest in the case with Li's right to privacy as a mental health patient, board chairman John Stefaniuk said Thursday.

Li could be confined to a mental hospital, released into the community with conditions or receive an absolute discharge. Stefaniuk said the board may either black out private information or recraft its public decision in such a way as to protect Li's personal medical information. That is still up for discussion among board members.

[Kasakato]

http://www.theprovince.com/Health/killer+fate+made+public/1640420/story.html
WINNIPEG — The fate of a man who beheaded a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus likely will be made public after all.


Despite some initial concerns that the media would not be allowed to report on whether Vince Li will be confined to a mental hospital or released into the community, Manitoba's Criminal Code Review Board is now reviewing legal opinions and expects to find a way to balance public interest in the case with Li's right to privacy as a mental health patient, board chairman John Stefaniuk said Thursday.

Li could be confined to a mental hospital, released into the community with conditions or receive an absolute discharge. Stefaniuk said the board may either black out private information or recraft its public decision in such a way as to protect Li's personal medical information. That is still up for discussion among board members.

Fair enough. It is a health care issue after all.

[65505201]

Perhaps next time you could ask your parents to take you to the library and help you to find some books to read about mental illness and the Canadian justice system.

O, zing. That really hurt. Guess I better read up on why a person who snapped and carved up some random person should have the potential to live in my community. Guess I should also read up on how the Canadian justice system is always right, which is why we give pedophiles the freedom to roam and live in communities with children.


You lack a fundamental understanding of what mental illness is. I think you really need to gain experience with people who have a serious mental illness to understand this.

For example, depression is not the same as being sad. If you ever knew someone who was clinically depressed, that would become acutely aware to you.

The opinion of the people best equipped to judge this is that this guy did not just decide that he wanted to dismember a guy, he thought that God told him to do it. You don't just decide you want to hear voices in your head, and you can't just decide to turn them off.

All the more reason to lock him in a padded room and throw away the key. If it was a chronic problem (hearing voices), his decision not to seek prior therapy leads me to think he will simply discontinue therapy if he is ever let out.

Again, consequences should match the actions of the mentally impaired. If one decides to steal stuff, not a problem (as long as the caregiver returns everything). Screaming obscenities in the middle of a church? Whatever. But if someone who's clinically depressed decides to shoot up a school? I don't care what the psychiatrists say or prescribe. I would *not* want that person out - *ever*

EDIT: Part of me wonders if the doctors/judges' religious beliefs played a part in this. I wonder if an atheist would be as receptive to a "god told me to do it" defense vs. a judge who believes there really is a god.

Sorry, I didn't know I was talking to a kid. Forget it.

Well, answer the question. If a team of psychiatrists deem him cured, and Li decides God is talking to him again the day after he's released, who is responsible? Can we sue the doctors for making faulty assessments? Unlikely. Can we sue the government for negligence? Well, tax money is really our money. So who is responsible for an oopsie?


EDIT2: I agree with a previous poster (don't remember on which page now). If Li is deemed stabilized and conditionally released, he should be rotated through all the homes of the judges and doctors who made that decision. Let's see if they're willing to put their lives where their mouth is.

[65505201]

Ah...this is awesome. So I'm reading up other opinions on other boards. Apparently he was diagnosed with schizo a long time ago and decided to stop taking his meds. Since it was the lack of meds that led to the state of mind where God was talking to him...shouldn't his decision to stop taking meds make him liable to some extent?

Also, given all the resources that will be committed to him over the years to stabilize and monitor him, part of me wonders if all that funding would be better off funding an ER ward somewhere else.

[BornRuff]

All the more reason to lock him in a padded room and throw away the key. If it was a chronic problem (hearing voices), his decision not to seek prior therapy leads me to think he will simply discontinue therapy if he is ever let out.

If someone is mentally ill, you can't really expect them to self diagnose themselves. For many people who have schizophrenia, their first psychotic break is a manic period. While they do a lot of unwise things in this state, it is generally also a very euphoric state, so they would have no interest in seeking help. Even when they slip into a more depressive mood, they are not necessarily mentally capable of diagnosing themselves.

Again, consequences should match the actions of the mentally impaired. If one decides to steal stuff, not a problem (as long as the caregiver returns everything). Screaming obscenities in the middle of a church? Whatever. But if someone who's clinically depressed decides to shoot up a school? I don't care what the psychiatrists say or prescribe. I would *not* want that person out - *ever*

When the actions of someone who is mentally ill affects other people's safety, it certainly is a much different ball game. It is simply not ok to lock people away in a hole forever just because they have a mental illness though. Our society has progressed so much farther past that.

EDIT: Part of me wonders if the doctors/judges' religious beliefs played a part in this. I wonder if an atheist would be as receptive to a "god told me to do it" defense vs. a judge who believes there really is a god.

I don't think it would have any affect on the decision. How do you suggest it would affect it? Even if they believe in god, the could still see how unlikely it is that god would be talking to him and telling him to kill and eat that kid.

If the guy didn't think the voice was god, he might have said it was Elvis, or Santa. Who the person thinks the voice is is really just a creation in their own mind.

[BornRuff]

Ah...this is awesome. So I'm reading up other opinions on other boards. Apparently he was diagnosed with schizo a long time ago and decided to stop taking his meds. Since it was the lack of meds that led to the state of mind where God was talking to him...shouldn't his decision to stop taking meds make him liable to some extent?

Also, given all the resources that will be committed to him over the years to stabilize and monitor him, part of me wonders if all that funding would be better off funding an ER ward somewhere else.

Can you show me where it says he was diagnosed years ago? Everything I read said he was diagnosed in custody.

[st7860]

http://www.theprovince.com/Panel+expected+announce+fate+decapitation+killer/1644058/story.html
WINNIPEG — The public will soon know the fate of a man who stabbed, beheaded and cannibalized a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus.


A hearing by the Manitoba Criminal Code Review Board, which is scheduled for Monday, will determine whether Vincent Li's information — including his location — will be released publicly.

[BornRuff]

http://www.theprovince.com/Panel+expected+announce+fate+decapitation+killer/1644058/story.html
WINNIPEG — The public will soon know the fate of a man who stabbed, beheaded and cannibalized a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus.


A hearing by the Manitoba Criminal Code Review Board, which is scheduled for Monday, will determine whether Vincent Li's information — including his location — will be released publicly.

Ya, I think that the public should be informed about what happens to this guy. It had such an affect on the public, and their perception of safety, that people shouldn't have to wonder about what is happening.

[65505201]

When the actions of someone who is mentally ill affects other people's safety, it certainly is a much different ball game. It is simply not ok to lock people away in a hole forever just because they have a mental illness though. Our society has progressed so much farther past that.


Apparently my stance has been buried under all the self righteous mental health advocates here. I have never said people should be locked away simply because they have a mental illness. If it is a non-violent problem and they are actively working with their health care professionals to control it, I have no problems with them roaming free. However:

-if their refusal of treatment leads to any criminal act, they should be held criminally negligent
-if their forgetfulness of treatment leads to any criminal act, they should be held liable for all actions
-if their first sign of problems leads to a non-lethal or debilitating act, they should receive treatment and be held responsible to some extent
-if their first sign of problems leads to a death, they should receive treatment and be held fully responsible

Can you show me where it says he was diagnosed years ago? Everything I read said he was diagnosed in custody.

Your opinion of its credibility may vary, but I am completely not surprised that the bumbling mental care system, which many of you Li supporters have admitted to be woefully understaffed, screwed up in the past - and will likely screw up again in the future. It's also funny that the prior diagnosis wasn't readily publicized, because it basically says Health Canada screwed up.


She also wondered why Li, who was born in China, was granted citizenship even after he had been diagnosed with schizophrenia.



Despite the urging of those close to him, he refused to seek medical treatment.



Li was admitted to a mental hospital in 2005, where he was diagnosed with schizophrenia, according to court testimony.

Doctors identified his auditory hallucinations and offered him medication, but he declined treatment at the time.

"Unfortunately, he appears to have left the treatment facility without permission," the judge said.


And we're supposed to trust the same idiots that Li will be treated properly this time :rolleyes: And we're also supposed to trust that these people (who have taken no responisbility whatsoever that their negligence in chasing down this patient lead to this gruesome murder) will be held accountable if Li is ever released and kills again :rolleyes:

If I use gilloman's example of a heart attack victim killing people while driving, if that driver knows he has a heart condition, refuses treatment despite a severe probability he can croak at any time, and continues eating McD's every day...I sure as hell hope the court finds him responsible for any and all deaths he causes.

[65505201]

What I also want to know is how the psychiatrists' testimonies can actually be counted as evidence?



Li's trial took only two days and heard from only two witnesses. Both were psychiatrists who testified Li suffers from schizophrenia. They testified Li heard what he thought was the voice of God last July, telling him to kill McLean or risk being killed himself.

Dr. Jonathan Rootenberg said Li was psychotic and was in no state to tell the difference between right and wrong.

"The attack was sudden and came as Li caught a glimpse of the sunlight and heard God's voice telling him that McLean was a threat," Rootenberg testified. "The voice said, `Do it now ... If you don't, he's going to kill you.'"


Annnd....how does one verify if the accused is ********ting you? It's almost as bad as my speeding ticket trial where the officer testified that he "calibrates" his lidar by picking a random spot on his house, walk out about 20 feet, and calibrate his instrument.

[BornRuff]

What I also want to know is how the psychiatrists' testimonies can actually be counted as evidence?



Annnd....how does one verify if the accused is ********ting you? It's almost as bad as my speeding ticket trial where the officer testified that he "calibrates" his lidar by picking a random spot on his house, walk out about 20 feet, and calibrate his instrument.

It is not ok to make arguments this based on your ignorance. If you don't understand something, why not look for the answer? People who have schizophrenia exhibit very specific symptoms, and they are not easy to fake. You can't just say "god made me do it".

If there was any doubt in this case, the psychiatrist for the prosecution would not have been so supportive of this idea.

[BornRuff]

Apparently my stance has been buried under all the self righteous mental health advocates here. I have never said people should be locked away simply because they have a mental illness. If it is a non-violent problem and they are actively working with their health care professionals to control it, I have no problems with them roaming free. However:

-if their refusal of treatment leads to any criminal act, they should be held criminally negligent
-if their forgetfulness of treatment leads to any criminal act, they should be held liable for all actions
-if their first sign of problems leads to a non-lethal or debilitating act, they should receive treatment and be held responsible to some extent
-if their first sign of problems leads to a death, they should receive treatment and be held fully responsible

You seem to be forgetting that they have a mental illness, and refusal of treatment can easily be caused by their illness. For example, someone with schizophrenia can suffer from frequent paranoid delusions. The prospect of getting help can become an extremely frightening prospect for them then.

This is why laundry lists like this simply don't work for mental health issues. There are so many variables that need to be taken into account when deciding which behaviors need to be treated, and which need to be punished. If an action is the result of an illness, you can't punish that illness away.

Your opinion of its credibility may vary, but I am completely not surprised that the bumbling mental care system, which many of you Li supporters have admitted to be woefully understaffed, screwed up in the past - and will likely screw up again in the future. It's also funny that the prior diagnosis wasn't readily publicized, because it basically says Health Canada screwed up.

And we're supposed to trust the same idiots that Li will be treated properly this time :rolleyes: And we're also supposed to trust that these people (who have taken no responisbility whatsoever that their negligence in chasing down this patient lead to this gruesome murder) will be held accountable if Li is ever released and kills again :rolleyes:

I would be willing to bet my life that he is being treated by an entirely different mental health team.

There is no evidence that the doctors were negligent. It does not sound like he was committed to the mental hospital before, he was simply there voluntarily. They don't have the right to force treatment on someone without significant cause, and that may not have been present back then.


If I use gilloman's example of a heart attack victim killing people while driving, if that driver knows he has a heart condition, refuses treatment despite a severe probability he can croak at any time, and continues eating McD's every day...I sure as hell hope the court finds him responsible for any and all deaths he causes.

That driver also has the mental ability to determine that driving is wrong in that state. Again the very definition of NCR is that they don't have the ability to tell right from wrong. I think that one sentence is what you need to wrap your head around.

[65505201]

You seem to be forgetting that they have a mental illness, and refusal of treatment can easily be caused by their illness. For example, someone with schizophrenia can suffer from frequent paranoid delusions. The prospect of getting help can become an extremely frightening prospect for them then.


Well, if the prospect of getting help can become extremely frightening, but not getting help can lead to results such as this, is the appropriate solution for the government to involuntarily force treatment?

Or should we just take the risk that something like this can happen, then pat ourselves in the back, rule NCR, leaving no one responsible?


That driver also has the mental ability to determine that driving is wrong in that state. Again the very definition of NCR is that they don't have the ability to tell right from wrong. I think that one sentence is what you need to wrap your head around.

Well, he did ask for the officers to shoot him. It seems to me that he was immediately aware that he did something very wrong. But getting back to the original question, if he can't tell right from wrong, shouldn't treatment have been forced on him way back in 2005?

Seems like a total cop-out to let people like this roam free untreated, then declare NCR if they ever flip out.

EDIT: And no. For the record, I DO NOT want the government to conduct mandatory mental assessments on everyone. However, I DO expect responsibility to fall on the patient when they are diagnosed and refuse treatment. If your excuse is that the patient can't make the proper decision themselves, then either:

1. have the doctors force the treatment to qualify for NCR
-or-
2. voluntarily offer treatment and preclude NCR.

As you can tell, I am leaning towards #2.

[Nikita]

What I also want to know is how the psychiatrists' testimonies can actually be counted as evidence?

I don't understand the question?? They took an oath, got in the box, they answered questions put to them by both sides. That's evidence. Perhaps you can clarify how you think their testimony cannot be counted as evidence?

[BornRuff]

Well, if the prospect of getting help can become extremely frightening, but not getting help can lead to results such as this, is the appropriate solution for the government to involuntarily force treatment?

Or should we just take the risk that something like this can happen, then pat ourselves in the back, rule NCR, leaving no one responsible?

In many cases treatment is forced upon the patient. Sometimes the circumstances do not warrant it though. If the medical team made a mistake when they treated him last, then they could be held responsible in some way, but there was 3 years between when he refused treatment and when he did this. He could have showed no signs of being a danger back then. There are about 300,000 people in Canada affected by schizophrenia. Of them, very very few ever end up doing something like this. In general, the chance of someone with schizophrenia doing something like this isn't really much more than someone who doesn't have schizophrenia, because both are so unlikely, so you can't really automatically blame the health care system.


Well, he did ask for the officers to shoot him. It seems to me that he was immediately aware that he did something very wrong. But getting back to the original question, if he can't tell right from wrong, shouldn't treatment have been forced on him way back in 2005?

I can't say anything specifically about Li, but many people with very serious schizophrenia experience manic and depressive mood swings. One second they will be in a euphoric delusional state, the next they will be suicidal. Neither need to be connected to any real understanding of what is going on around them. From the description of how he acted when he was killing and dismembering the body, it certainly didn't sound like he thought what he was doing was wrong. He could easily have much more lucid periods where he will be able to understand how horrible what he did was, but the real issue is if he understood it while he was doing it.

Seems like a total cop-out to let people like this roam free untreated, then declare NCR if they ever flip out.

Sometime things happen that are just unfortunate tragedies. We can't take away the rights of everyone who has a mental illness just to prevent freak incidents like this.

EDIT: And no. For the record, I DO NOT want the government to conduct mandatory mental assessments on everyone. However, I DO expect responsibility to fall on the patient when they are diagnosed and refuse treatment. If your excuse is that the patient can't make the proper decision themselves, then either:

1. have the doctors force the treatment to qualify for NCR
-or-
2. voluntarily offer treatment and preclude NCR.

As you can tell, I am leaning towards #2.

Treating mental illness is really a tricky thing. Based on his condition when he was treated in 2005, the doctors must have decided there was no cause to force treatment on him, and he lived for 3 years without doing anything wrong, so it is easy to see how things could have looked that way back then. We live in a society where people have rights, and that means that there needs to be significant reasons to take away their freedom. Looking back, we all know now that forcing treatment would have been better, but we are not in a position to judge if they made a mistake in judgment in 2005 since he could have been no threat at all back then.

[st7860]

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/beheaded+passenger+remain+under+care/1659876/story.html
— A man who beheaded a sleeping passenger on a Greyhound bus must remain locked up under heavy security at a psychiatric facility, a review board ruled Wednesday.


Vince Li will be sent to the high-risk ward at a mental health centre in Selkirk, Man., as soon as a bed becomes available.


Until then, he remains under 24-hour supervision at a secure ward of a Winnipeg hospital, where he has been since last August.

[65505201]

Sometime things happen that are just unfortunate tragedies. We can't take away the rights of everyone who has a mental illness just to prevent freak incidents like this.


I agree that we can't take away the rights of every single mental patient and force treatment. However, if one refuses treatment, they should have their NCR rights taken away.

I don't understand the question?? They took an oath, got in the box, they answered questions put to them by both sides. That's evidence. Perhaps you can clarify how you think their testimony cannot be counted as evidence?

I'm curious as to the type of tests, etc. that psychiatrists use to prove that Li really experienced those things, vs. having a less severe form of mental illness and gaming it up to get NCR.

It's like a cop submitting lidar evidence. We get to question the workings of the device, how it's calibrated and used, etc.

Just because they went on the stand and submitted evidence doesn't mean it was collected or interpreted correctly.

[BornRuff]

I agree that we can't take away the rights of every single mental patient and force treatment. However, if one refuses treatment, they should have their NCR rights taken away.

I've already explained many times in this thread. Refusing treatment is a symptom of many mental illnesses. They may be paranoid, or they may just lack insight into their condition. Punishing a symptom of mental illness is not helpful.

Your making NCR seem like some sort of get out of jail free card. It's not a privileged, it is simply a more appropriate way of dealing with certain people. It's not fair to subject jail guards and other inmates to a person like that when they are not set up to deal with them. You can't punish a mental illness out of someone.

I'm curious as to the type of tests, etc. that psychiatrists use to prove that Li really experienced those things, vs. having a less severe form of mental illness and gaming it up to get NCR.

It's like a cop submitting lidar evidence. We get to question the workings of the device, how it's calibrated and used, etc.

Just because they went on the stand and submitted evidence doesn't mean it was collected or interpreted correctly.

That is what the lawyers and expert witnesses are for. Psychiatrists for both the defense and prosecution examined Li, and they both agreed on the diagnosis. You can always question people if you want, but maybe you should do so in a way that you are actually looking for answers, not just asking rhetorical questions that you think makes your opposition look bad.

[CSK'sMom]

I just want to add this...

65505201, it sure seems from what you've written here that you think a NCR is the easy way out of a jail sentence. It's not. In fact, in our case the Crown explained to us that being convicted under NCR is in many, many ways far worse that serving 25-life in Kinston or any other maximum security prison. Those who are in locked menatl facilities are the worst of the mentally ill there are. Now think about that for a minute... How exactly is being locked up in a mental facility with the absolutely most mentally ill (and therefore dangerous) people there are with no absolute release date better or easier than serving a dertermined sentence in a regular prison?

[65505201]

I've already explained many times in this thread. Refusing treatment is a symptom of many mental illnesses. They may be paranoid, or they may just lack insight into their condition. Punishing a symptom of mental illness is not helpful.


So instead of actively combating refusal of treatment, we cross our fingers and hope that something doesn't happen? And if it does, it's an unavoidable and unfortunate event...and totally not the patient's fault?


Your making NCR seem like some sort of get out of jail free card. It's not a privileged, it is simply a more appropriate way of dealing with certain people. It's not fair to subject jail guards and other inmates to a person like that when they are not set up to deal with them. You can't punish a mental illness out of someone.


If I read correctly, NCR also means Li will have no criminal record. Even if/when he is deemed rehabilitated, I think that it's the public's right to know of his past.

Also, no you can't punish the crazy out of someone. But you can sure keep someone who has gone so far off the deep end separated from society until you are very, very sure they are stable.


That is what the lawyers and expert witnesses are for. Psychiatrists for both the defense and prosecution examined Li, and they both agreed on the diagnosis. You can always question people if you want, but maybe you should do so in a way that you are actually looking for answers, not just asking rhetorical questions that you think makes your opposition look bad.

How am I asking rhetorical questions? I want to understand how the psychiatrists can verify that Li really experienced the voices of God. The only answer I have gotten here so far is:

-the psychiatrists testified, thus whatever they say must be true

The human psyche is so complex that I wonder where the bar sits for proof beyond a reasonable doubt...especially when all of the "evidence" gathered is based on what Li communicates to the psychiatrists. Considering that he had in possession a large knife, it doesn't make sense that the voice of God was a one time event, or that the first event resulted in such a brutal slaying. I would conjecture a less severe event such as threatening/waving the knife around would've occurred at an earlier time.

Since you seem to be well versed in mental illnesses, explain it to me. What methods do psychiatrists use to verify that Li was truly hearing voices, telling him to kill and mutilate the victim?

I just want to add this...

65505201, it sure seems from what you've written here that you think a NCR is the easy way out of a jail sentence. It's not. In fact, in our case the Crown explained to us that being convicted under NCR is in many, many ways far worse that serving 25-life in Kinston or any other maximum security prison. Those who are in locked menatl facilities are the worst of the mentally ill there are. Now think about that for a minute... How exactly is being locked up in a mental facility with the absolutely most mentally ill (and therefore dangerous) people there are with no absolute release date better or easier than serving a dertermined sentence in a regular prison?

If I had to choose between the severely mentally ill and convicts at a maximum security prison, I would probably choose the mentally ill. My guess is everything is monitored much more closely and the staff:convict/patient ratio is better. Also, considering the release date is based on supposed improvement, I don't consider it impossible for Li to game the annual evaluations and be out much earlier than if convicted conventionally.

What I have a problem with is how he will not have a criminal record when he is released. The following quote just smacks of stupidity.


With the NCR declaration, Li will not have a criminal record. But on the agreement of both the Crown and the defence, his DNA will be put into a registry so that it will be on file in the event Li is one day released and is suspected of another crime.

"It's a responsible position for the defence to take because clearly, they're concerned about public safety," Slurka said.


Ya, they must be really confident in their ability to guarantee stable rehabilitation. :rolleyes: you know, just in case Li decides to stop his medication again.

[CSK'sMom]

If I had to choose between the severely mentally ill and convicts at a maximum security prison, I would probably choose the mentally ill. My guess is everything is monitored much more closely and the staff:convict/patient ratio is better. Also, considering the release date is based on supposed improvement, I don't consider it impossible for Li to game the annual evaluations and be out much earlier than if convicted conventionally.

What I have a problem with is how he will not have a criminal record when he is released. The following quote just smacks of stupidity.



Ya, they must be really confident in their ability to guarantee stable rehabilitation. :rolleyes: you know, just in case Li decides to stop his medication again.

Well I hate to tell you but your guess would be wrong. Just take a minute and do a quick google in reference to the way mental health services have been decimated in this country. Just because it's a secure facility does not mean that it's better than a jail. The reverse is actually opposite. Statistically, most convicted under NCR serve far more "time" than those conventionally convicted of crimes of the same magnitude. Even in our case, a DNA sample was part of the plea deal, it's not automatic in many types of cases. We were told by our Crown that they have been given a mandate to work the DNA clause into as many plea deals as they can to get samples into the registry.

[time space]

The reverse is actually opposite.

You just blew my mind!

:eek:

[Beradon]

Everyone will be better served if this guy got a bullet in the head.

Having him released in a few years serves no purpose except for the chance to re-offend should he decide to stop his meds.

Having locked up for life in a mental institution would also be cost prohibitive.

[BornRuff]

So instead of actively combating refusal of treatment, we cross our fingers and hope that something doesn't happen? And if it does, it's an unavoidable and unfortunate event...and totally not the patient's fault?

I'm sure they are actively trying to prevent people from refusing treatment. It is very hard to figure out at which point we decide to take someone's rights away. Looking back it is easy to say that it would have been better to lock this guy up and shove drugs down his throat, but at the time, there may not have been cause. We can't lock up all 300,000 people in this country who suffer from schizophrenia just because of our worry about freak incidents like these.

If the persons condition causes them to lack insight into their own condition, why bother punishing them for not understanding their condition? You can't punish away mental illness.

If I read correctly, NCR also means Li will have no criminal record. Even if/when he is deemed rehabilitated, I think that it's the public's right to know of his past.

Also, no you can't punish the crazy out of someone. But you can sure keep someone who has gone so far off the deep end separated from society until you are very, very sure they are stable.

The public does have the right to know about this, that is why we know about it.

You have to think it through. If he was found not criminally responsible, why would he get a criminal record? It would certainly go on their medical record, and it is well documented in the media, so I don't think this guy will ever be able to forget about it.

Your statement that they shouldn't be released until they are very very sure they are safe is the exact reason why they have the NCR option. Criminal convictions don't take mental conditions into account, and once their sentence is done, the government has absolutely no power of the person anymore. That is kind of what happened with Karla Homolka. After she was sentenced they realized they should really be keeping her in jail for life, but once her sentence was up, they couldn't even monitor her on probation or paroll. With someone who is NCR, they can keep them locked up indefinitely.

How am I asking rhetorical questions? I want to understand how the psychiatrists can verify that Li really experienced the voices of God. The only answer I have gotten here so far is:

-the psychiatrists testified, thus whatever they say must be true

The human psyche is so complex that I wonder where the bar sits for proof beyond a reasonable doubt...especially when all of the "evidence" gathered is based on what Li communicates to the psychiatrists. Considering that he had in possession a large knife, it doesn't make sense that the voice of God was a one time event, or that the first event resulted in such a brutal slaying. I would conjecture a less severe event such as threatening/waving the knife around would've occurred at an earlier time.

Since you seem to be well versed in mental illnesses, explain it to me. What methods do psychiatrists use to verify that Li was truly hearing voices, telling him to kill and mutilate the victim?

I didn't say that we should just take everything a psychiatrist says at face value no matter what. In court cases, mental health teams from both sides do their own assessments. Any points of contention are supposed to be brought up in court if both sides don't agree. If two separate teams come to the same conclusion, it gives me confidence in their findings.

I don't know exactly how they make a diagnosis, but I know in general what they are looking for. There are very specific symptoms that would warrant a schizophrenia diagnosis, you can't just come in and claim you hear voices.

If I had to choose between the severely mentally ill and convicts at a maximum security prison, I would probably choose the mentally ill. My guess is everything is monitored much more closely and the staff:convict/patient ratio is better. Also, considering the release date is based on supposed improvement, I don't consider it impossible for Li to game the annual evaluations and be out much earlier than if convicted conventionally.

What I have a problem with is how he will not have a criminal record when he is released. The following quote just smacks of stupidity.

I would certainly hope they monitor people more closely in a high risk mental institution.

It is also very possible that he will stay behind bars for the rest of his life. I don't really think it is very easy to "game" these hearings.

[st7860]

only in Canada, where someone can do that and not go to jail.



http://www.theprovince.com/health/Anniversary+beheading+brings+deluge+online+tribute s/1838465/story.html

Li was found not criminally responsible for his actions during his trial earlier this year in March.

[MasterXan]

only in Canada, where someone can do that and not go to jail.



http://www.theprovince.com/health/Anniversary+beheading+brings+deluge+online+tribute s/1838465/story.html

Li was found not criminally responsible for his actions during his trial earlier this year in March.

what can I say?

we peace loving Canadians love criminals

but god forbid, someone defends themselves with violence. Those people go straight to jail.

[gilboman]

only in Canada, where someone can do that and not go to jail.



http://www.theprovince.com/health/Anniversary+beheading+brings+deluge+online+tribute s/1838465/story.html

Li was found not criminally responsible for his actions during his trial earlier this year in March.

most countries that are civilized do not make a habit of jailing sick people

[gilboman]

what can I say?

we peace loving Canadians love criminals

but god forbid, someone defends themselves with violence. Those people go straight to jail.

Canadians do not send sick people to jail, we do not tolerate people who knowingly break laws though. Just because somebody is breaking the law does not give you the right to do the same. it's a very simple concept and majority of people are able to understand it.

If I see someone stealing, I don't go punch them in the face and beat them with a bat.

[Nikita]

most countries that are civilized do not make a habit of jailing sick people

Canadians do not send sick people to jail, we do not tolerate people who knowingly break laws though. Just because somebody is breaking the law does not give you the right to do the same. it's a very simple concept and majority of people are able to understand it.

If I see someone stealing, I don't go punch them in the face and beat them with a bat.

+1 for both posts.

[MrDisco]

Canadians do not send sick people to jail, we do not tolerate people who knowingly break laws though.

The problem is that the extreme right have lost sight of this. To them there is no rational discussion - have them hanged at high noon is the only response that would satisfy them.

If someone I knew was killed there is no question in my mind I would be calling for revenge. It's a human, emotional instinct. This is why we have sober thought and discussion when framing our laws (ideally).
There is no benefit to society to have someone professionally declared as mentally ill to languish in a jail cell. That's not the kind of enlightened society I want to live in.

[MasterXan]

The problem is that the extreme right have lost sight of this. To them there is no rational discussion - have them hanged at high noon is the only response that would satisfy them.

If someone I knew was killed there is no question in my mind I would be calling for revenge. It's a human, emotional instinct. This is why we have sober thought and discussion when framing our laws (ideally).
There is no benefit to society to have someone professionally declared as mentally ill to languish in a jail cell. That's not the kind of enlightened society I want to live in.

ok...

normally, the extreme right (btw, I'm not one of them) would want this guy to be hanged. however, that's not the case here. THey want this guy to be in jail. Apprently, that's not enough! the extreme left wants to put this guy in a crazy house. What's worst is this guy has the chance to be released providing that his mental health improves, which is a slim. However, the keyword here is "slim," which also means he does have a chance to get out.

is the public confident that this guy won't get out? you decide RFDers.

Just because somebody is breaking the law does not give you the right to do the same. it's a very simple concept and majority of people are able to understand it.

If I see someone stealing, I don't go punch them in the face and beat them with a bat.

actually, a lot of people don't understand it. they don't understand why we have to stand in idle while we either get our stuff stolen or get beaten up and the only way to retaliate is by dialing 911 and hoping the morgue has enough space.

they also don't understand why someone needs to stir crap in the media in order to reverse a school board's decision to suspend a student who legitimately used self-defense.

that's my commentary. you decide RFDers.

[Nikita]

ok...

normally, the extreme right (btw, I'm not one of them) would want this guy to be hanged. however, that's not the case here. THey want this guy to be in jail. Apprently, that's not enough! the extreme left wants to put this guy in a crazy house. What's worst is this guy has the chance to be released providing that his mental health improves, which is a slim. However, the keyword here is "slim," which also means he does have a chance to get out.

is the public confident that this guy won't get out? you decide RFDers.





Your premise is that if he goes to jail instead of an mental institution, he won't come out, and you seem pretty confident of that. History tells us otherwise, almost everybody gets out eventually. Would you rather he come out with treatment or without, on parole with supervision, or deemed mentally better and no supervision?

You decide...;)

[MasterXan]

Your premise is that if he goes to jail instead of an mental institution, he won't come out, and you seem pretty confident of that. History tells us otherwise, almost everybody gets out eventually. Would you rather he come out with treatment or without, on parole with supervision, or deemed mentally better and no supervision?

You decide...;)

ok let me get this straight

even if he is sentenced to life in prison, he still has a chance to get out?

[MrDisco]

Would you rather he come out with treatment or without, on parole with supervision, or deemed mentally better and no supervision?

Agreed, that's exactly my point.

It's no surprise that the right will use terms like "crazy house". That is such a 1950s, dismissive view of mental health; I'm sure CAMH would beg to differ.

[sillysimms]

ok let me get this straight

even if he is sentenced to life in prison, he still has a chance to get out?

The term "life" sentence is very misleading as a "life" sentence is not really a life sentence. It is a life sentence with no chance of parole for XX number of years. For example, if convicted of first degree murder, I believe the sentence is automatically life with no chance of parole for 25 years - even with that sentence, there is a possibility of parole after a certain number of years (I believe 15?) under the faint hope clause.

Convicted of 2nd degree murder, the sentence will be life with no chance of parole from anywhere between 10 to 25 years.

"Life" in Canada is not really a life sentence unless the person is declared a dangerous offender which I don't think is done very often.

From a personal standpoint, if anyone in my family was harmed I'd be livid that the person responsible would have a chance to live free in the community in the future while the person whose life was taken would never have that chance.

[Nikita]

ok let me get this straight

even if he is sentenced to life in prison, he still has a chance to get out?

:arrowd: correct

The term "life" sentence is very misleading as a "life" sentence is not really a life sentence. It is a life sentence with no chance of parole for XX number of years. For example, if convicted of first degree murder, I believe the sentence is automatically life with no chance of parole for 25 years - even with that sentence, there is a possibility of parole after a certain number of years (I believe 15?) under the faint hope clause.

Convicted of 2nd degree murder, the sentence will be life with no chance of parole from anywhere between 10 to 25 years.

"Life" in Canada is not really a life sentence unless the person is declared a dangerous offender which I don't think is done very often.

From a personal standpoint, if anyone in my family was harmed I'd be livid that the person responsible would have a chance to live free in the community in the future while the person whose life was taken would never have that chance.

Even dangerous offenders can get out. They get a review every 7 years and if deemed 'rehabilitated' can be released.

[st7860]

too bad he's a citizen already.

http://www.vancouversun.com/health/System+failed+family+beheading+victim+report/2008604/story.html

Family members of a young man who was decapitated and cannibalized on a Greyhound bus were poorly prepared for what they faced at a hearing this summer for his mentally ill killer, according to a review board.


The five-member panel released a written report this week providing reasons for its June decision to order Vince Li to remain locked up under heavy security at a Manitoba psychiatric facility.


The board also commented for the first time on its controversial decision to reject portions of several victim-impact statements from being read at the hearing.


"It is unfortunate indeed that individuals who see themselves and are seen by many as victims . . . and who have taken the time to write their earnest and heartfelt statements with the intention of reading those statements at the hearing, can find themselves in the position of having the admissibility and appropriateness of their statements challenged at the hearing, sometimes without advance warning," the board wrote.


"This can only exacerbate feelings of victimization."


Lawyers for Li convinced board members at the hearing to edit portions of several victim-impact statements submitted by 22-year-old Tim McLean's grieving loved ones. They said some elements didn't meet the required criteria because they spoke directly to Li, got into issues of punishment, spoke of the general impact on other people and recapped circumstances of the killing.


The review board said family members should have been given "additional assistance" prior to the hearing by Manitoba officials.


"We strongly urge the Victim Services Branch to review all statements with their authors to ensure, so far as it is reasonable, that the statements meet the statutory criteria for victim-impact statements," the board wrote.


"This review should take place before the statements are filed with the board. At the very least, persons who submit statements should be made aware of the possibility that there may be objections to the contents of or the admissibility of their statements if those statements are alleged to go beyond what is permitted under the Criminal Code."


Li attacked McLean while he slept on a Greyhound bus outside Portage la Prairie, Man., in July 2008. McLean was repeatedly stabbed, beheaded and dismembered in front of nearly three dozen witnesses.


Li was suffering from untreated schizophrenia and psychotic delusions at the time, which included hearing commands from God ordering him to kill McLean, whom he apparently viewed as a demon. Li was found not criminally responsible of murder during his trial in March.


"We are of the opinion that without the continued, close supervision provided by detention in hospital, Mr. Li would be a significant risk to the safety of the public, and that neither an absolute discharge nor a discharge upon conditions would be appropriate," the board wrote in the decision released Thursday.


The board ruled that Li should be sent to the high-risk ward at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre. Two peace officers must be assigned to guard Li if he needs to leave the secured facility for any reason, such as medical care or appointments.

[BornRuff]

too bad he's a citizen already.

http://www.vancouversun.com/health/System+failed+family+beheading+victim+report/2008604/story.html

Family members of a young man who was decapitated and cannibalized on a Greyhound bus were poorly prepared for what they faced at a hearing this summer for his mentally ill killer, according to a review board.


The five-member panel released a written report this week providing reasons for its June decision to order Vince Li to remain locked up under heavy security at a Manitoba psychiatric facility.


The board also commented for the first time on its controversial decision to reject portions of several victim-impact statements from being read at the hearing.


"It is unfortunate indeed that individuals who see themselves and are seen by many as victims . . . and who have taken the time to write their earnest and heartfelt statements with the intention of reading those statements at the hearing, can find themselves in the position of having the admissibility and appropriateness of their statements challenged at the hearing, sometimes without advance warning," the board wrote.


"This can only exacerbate feelings of victimization."


Lawyers for Li convinced board members at the hearing to edit portions of several victim-impact statements submitted by 22-year-old Tim McLean's grieving loved ones. They said some elements didn't meet the required criteria because they spoke directly to Li, got into issues of punishment, spoke of the general impact on other people and recapped circumstances of the killing.


The review board said family members should have been given "additional assistance" prior to the hearing by Manitoba officials.


"We strongly urge the Victim Services Branch to review all statements with their authors to ensure, so far as it is reasonable, that the statements meet the statutory criteria for victim-impact statements," the board wrote.


"This review should take place before the statements are filed with the board. At the very least, persons who submit statements should be made aware of the possibility that there may be objections to the contents of or the admissibility of their statements if those statements are alleged to go beyond what is permitted under the Criminal Code."


Li attacked McLean while he slept on a Greyhound bus outside Portage la Prairie, Man., in July 2008. McLean was repeatedly stabbed, beheaded and dismembered in front of nearly three dozen witnesses.


Li was suffering from untreated schizophrenia and psychotic delusions at the time, which included hearing commands from God ordering him to kill McLean, whom he apparently viewed as a demon. Li was found not criminally responsible of murder during his trial in March.


"We are of the opinion that without the continued, close supervision provided by detention in hospital, Mr. Li would be a significant risk to the safety of the public, and that neither an absolute discharge nor a discharge upon conditions would be appropriate," the board wrote in the decision released Thursday.


The board ruled that Li should be sent to the high-risk ward at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre. Two peace officers must be assigned to guard Li if he needs to leave the secured facility for any reason, such as medical care or appointments.

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