Upscale cars (ie. BMW, Merc) - Bad cars to own in the long run?

[Venom]

Hey, I know that there has been some topics specifically talking about certain cars but I was wondering in general how expensive are the two to repair after the warrenty runs out.

I was thinking of picking up a C230 for 41k, and I plan on keeping it until the car completely dies. I have heard that when it comes down to it the mercedes and BMW's are very expensive to repair if there is something that needs to be done. I heard the BMW's are less expensive though. I heard lexus is actually pretty fair and so is cadillac.

Any inputs?

[VivienM]

My view is that there's a reason 90% of these cars are leased.

If you want something durable that'll require not too much expensive maintenance, get a GM W body or stick with Civic/Corolla. If you want a fancy high-end gizmo-filled German car, lease it, and return it before the end of the warranty. Then it becomes somebody else's problem when expensive things break...

[KevC]

Lexus are definitely solid. I would rate BMW above Mercedes' reliability, but any car can last if PROPERLY taken care of. Usually they are electrical problems, not mechanical.

However, if you get into really high end cars, it will get more expensive with the complicated technology (e.g. 7-series, S-Class, etc).

Stick with Lexus if you fear reliability issues. IS and ES would be what you're looking at.

[IBOPM]

my family's yr 2000 3-series is crippling our bank accounts :(

[Mr Nobody]

My views are:

1. Luxury cars are only cool if they are new, or they are vintage/antiques. Who wants to drive a 10 year old (or heck, even 6 year old) luxury car?
2. Luxury cars generally don't hold their value
3. Luxury cars are costly to repairs

Based on that, I would just lease and get a new luxury car every 3-4 years. It takes care of all 3 points.

[AGR-1]

These days all vehicles have a mechanical and a technology platform...in most instances the mechanical platform is very reliable and durable. The technology platform in many instances is proprietary to the manufacturer, is prone to have glitches, and the vehicle is more beholden to the franchised dealer to have the technology platform diagnosed, updated, reflashed, repaired.

The more expensive the vehicle(luxury) the higher the content and complexity of the technology platform. Luxury cars are distinguished by the higher content and complexity of the technology.

Most folks lease luxury cars since it makes them more affordable, and they have the ideal exit strategy prior the warranty expiring and having to spend money for reconditioning.

Modern vehicles have a long mechanical life expectancy and a shorter technological life expectancy...most folks know that too. Again a lease is the ideal way to deal with modern vehicles.

Its not a question of which make and model is more or less reliable, its a question of what sort of appetite do you have for technological glitches, paying thousands for black boxes, paying hundreds for diagnosing a problem. Most folks have a very limited appetite for dealing with black boxes out of warranty. Most dealers have a limited appetite to repair black boxes out of warranty.

Most independent shops prefer to deal with under frame issues (brakes, steering, exhaust, tires, a/c, simple OBDII issues).

[VivienM]

2. Luxury cars generally don't hold their value


Entry level luxury (A4, 3 series, C class) seem to hold their value really well, based on the lease residuals, but I admit I can't understand why.

Maybe they DO manage to sell them afterwards for those inflated prices with the 2 year certified preowned warranty?

[KawaiiTentacleBeast]

I was thinking of picking up a C230 for 41k, and I plan on keeping it until the car completely dies.

Why? Do you enjoy watching cars die?

[Pete_Coach]

All cars, luxury or not are filled to the brim with the gadgetry and stuff. Black box failures are just as expensive in your Kia Rio as they are in any other car.
People who own (lease or buy) luxury cars do like to take advantage of the latest in technology, mechanical or electrical and will do so regardless. They seldom own the car for too long and it has nothing to do with the expense of owning the car, it is just because they always want the newest.
Does a luxury car (regardless of brand) cost more to maintain, well, from a per hour maintenance yes, parts is a bit more debatable. Some parts are more and then others are the same as all others.
I owned BMW's and hardly paid anything for maintenance and when the brakes needed replacement, I had to pay $1000. A lot, but not out of line form what I have been reading on this forum of what folks have paid. As someone else noted, the overall cost of maintenance for luxury cars is offset by the fact that you have to pay for no maintenance at all for the first 4 years and when you do begin a scheduled maintenance regime, it is often at 24,000 kms, not the 5, 000 required by non luxury cars. All things are relative and must be kept in perspective.

[SMC23]

... All things are relative and must be kept in perspective.

Exactly!

Don't go buying a 41K luxury car and expect maintenance to be cheap as a civic. That car brand new must of been in the 60K range so the parts are going to be priced accordingly to that level.

I drive a '06 BMW 3 series and have leased it. The car has had no problems whatsoever so I decided to do the buyback. Much cheaper in the long run than leasing every 3-4 yrs plus. Cant speak for the other luxury makes, but BMW has a maintenance program where you replace a specific part when it actually wears out, instead of replacing a set of parts on the same interval. This saves as you get the most mileage from a given part.

[Mr Nobody]

Entry level luxury (A4, 3 series, C class) seem to hold their value really well, based on the lease residuals, but I admit I can't understand why.

Maybe they DO manage to sell them afterwards for those inflated prices with the 2 year certified preowned warranty?

I was looking at some used A4s and I recall they lost 1/2 of their STICKER price after 3-4 years. Factory in what the actual drive-off-the-lot price is, that's a lot.

Why? Do you enjoy watching cars die?

LOL at your Avatar. Its blurry but that's a crankwalk right? LOL.

[VivienM]

All cars, luxury or not are filled to the brim with the gadgetry and stuff. Black box failures are just as expensive in your Kia Rio as they are in any other car.

So, tell me, how much does it cost to fix the following in a Kia Rio?
- stability control
- automatic climate control head unit
- windshield with the right coating for rain-sensing wipers
... etc.

Oh wait, a Kia Rio doesn't have any of those. So it must cost $0 to repair something non-existent, right? :) (though I'm sure a stealership or greedy mechanic would probably charge an hour's labour to tell you the car doesn't have those...)

[VivienM]

I was looking at some used A4s and I recall they lost 1/2 of their STICKER price after 3-4 years. Factory in what the actual drive-off-the-lot price is, that's a lot.

And I was looking at leasing a VW Passat. Residual on a Passat after four years and 80K kms is 38%! Domestics (e.g. my beloved W bodies) are about the same.

Losing half the price in 3-4 years is nowhere near as bad.

[maniacshopper]

want a nice luxury car, but also wanna low cost maintenance.

Avoid German cars, since you're going to hold them till you scrap.
German cars still have the electronic gremlins.

Japanese cars are not exactly bullet proof, stuff will still breakdown, with wear and tear. If you baby them, you're fine.

Maintenance on luxury cars is high, don't expect parts to be cheap.

To op, I'd go with lexus for luxury car.

[Pete_Coach]

So, tell me, how much does it cost to fix the following in a Kia Rio?
- stability control
- automatic climate control head unit
- windshield with the right coating for rain-sensing wipers
... etc.

Oh wait, a Kia Rio doesn't have any of those. So it must cost $0 to repair something non-existent, right? :) (though I'm sure a stealership or greedy mechanic would probably charge an hour's labour to tell you the car doesn't have those...)

You do miss the point sometimes. Regardless of what is or is not on the car. if it breaks, it needs to be repaired or replaced. Owning a vehicle is not a cheap endeavor. In the long run, when you go to sell your Rio, will it be worth proportionally (or by percentage) the same as the MB, Lexus or BMW of the same vintage ie. a 10 year old BMW is still worth owning but is a 10 year old Kia (and it does not have to be a Kia, any car will do)? Will you have spent the same on repairs? Sometimes higher end vehicles also have higher end components in them making them more reliable and last longer. Like I said, I pay zero in 4 years to drive my car, how much does it cost for ol changes,scheduled inspections etc for the Kia?
By the way, all those things you have listed have never been a problem on any of my cars that have had them.:)

[Mr Nobody]

And I was looking at leasing a VW Passat. Residual on a Passat after four years and 80K kms is 38%! Domestics (e.g. my beloved W bodies) are about the same.

Losing half the price in 3-4 years is nowhere near as bad.

So your point is losing 50% over 3-4 years is good or that its bad but that Passats are worse? Passats are pseudo luxury so I can understand why it would be worse. Must have been a base Passat. TDI would have held its value. :)

[bembol]

Lexus are definitely solid. I would rate BMW above Mercedes' reliability, but any car can last if PROPERLY taken care of. Usually they are electrical problems, not mechanical.

However, if you get into really high end cars, it will get more expensive with the complicated technology (e.g. 7-series, S-Class, etc).

Stick with Lexus if you fear reliability issues. IS and ES would be what you're looking at.

+1

The ONLY reason why I had to trade-in my '02 Acura RSX (Premium).

But I do agree about Leasing it.

[HP_John]

In the long run maintenance costs can add up after warranty. M-B is currently a unreliable brand (Consumer Reports), BMW is a avg reliability brand. BMW does have corporate subsidized "value" pricing for some common maintenance repairs, I believe M-B does not.

[mr_raider]

I was thinking of picking up a C230 for 41k, and I plan on keeping it until the car completely dies. I have heard that when it comes down to it the mercedes and BMW's are very expensive to repair if there is something that needs to be done. I heard the BMW's are less expensive though. I heard lexus is actually pretty fair and so is cadillac.

Any inputs?

I crossed shopped the C230 4 matic, BMW 328xi the g35x and IS 250 AWD. I test drove them all. The Germans have fallen far behind. They are underequipped, overpriced, have ghastly interiors (BMW), and arrogant customer service (MB). The c230 is also slow as hell. Plus the japanese are handing out incentives and subsidized rates like candy. At the end, none could stand up to the G35 or IS in comparison. I stand by my decision to buy the IS, even if it's an old man's car.

[VivienM]

So your point is losing 50% over 3-4 years is good or that its bad but that Passats are worse? Passats are pseudo luxury so I can understand why it would be worse. Must have been a base Passat. TDI would have held its value. :)

My point is that losing 50% is better than on MOST cars I've seen.

This was a fully loaded 2.0T Passat. But the Passat has a HORRIBLE reputation for reliability...

[tsatsa]

I would stay away from Mercedes. In the last few years they are so unreliable that even the taxi driver in their own Mercedes home city stop buying Mercedes. That tell you something.

[Acrossenger]

.

[voodoo401]

Used to have a 325 BMW, was ok for the first 4 years but was a money pit after that. Plus it's difficult to get repaired properly since most shops including the BMW dealership don't have a clue what to do and they rely on the what the computer says is wrong.
What ever you do don't go to BMW London on Wharncliffe Road South since they are clueless and will use the shotgun approach to repair the car and the customer service is bad.

[DBOi]

Lexus repair is not cheap. I have a LS430. Driver side power mirror failed after 5 years. It costs $1300 to replace and $200 to install it. Then stereo failed, all hydraulic lifters failed, floor panel came off...etc. Of course, no aftermarket parts at all due to small number of cars on the road. Even Lexus only lasts 5 years or 100K.

Looks like you got a lemon? >:(

Agreed, we've had our LS430 since 01, n there hasn't been a serious mechanical or electrical failure yet.

[AudiDude]

I was looking at some used A4s and I recall they lost 1/2 of their STICKER price after 3-4 years. Factory in what the actual drive-off-the-lot price is, that's a lot.


That is exactly why I buy off-lease vehicles. Let somebody else take the big hit and make all the trips to the dealer for the recalls and first year adjustments. After the initial big loss is over, the cars just slowly slide down in value until they get to a point that there price is very dependant on their condition.

[Venom]

interesting no one has anything to say about the caddy's

[AudiDude]

interesting no one has anything to say about the caddy's

Because you said upscale cars...

[vladislav]

German cars have horrid reliability. Do not get one if you are keeping it past warranty. Lexus will be better in every way.

It's really sad that innovators such as Mercedes build such crappy cars.

[Pete_Coach]

German cars have horrid reliability. Do not get one if you are keeping it past warranty. Lexus will be better in every way.

It's really sad that innovators such as Mercedes build such crappy cars.
Holy...vladislav has spoken....pity poor Mercedes, do they know about him and his detailed insight? :confused:

[monty613]

German cars have horrid reliability. Do not get one if you are keeping it past warranty. Lexus will be better in every way.

It's really sad that innovators such as Mercedes build such crappy cars.

care to elaborate on your experiences?

[definite]

Be a man. Buy a Benz.

[MasterXan]

is an Infiniti worth keeping after warranty?

[flito ray]

acura makes good cars. i'd go with an acura. i know a guy that has a 1993 acura integra and i's still in good shape

[lesnar]

i personally would feel more embarrassed to be seen in a 1989 Benz/BMW/Lexus than driving a Corolla of the same year.

[Pete_Coach]

is an Infiniti worth keeping after warranty?
Of course it is..if you still like the car. Expiry of warranty is no reason to get rid of the car if you like it.

acura makes good cars. i'd go with an acura. i know a guy that has a 1993 acura integra and i's still in good shape

I know a guy that has a 1973 350 SL Mercedes and it is still in good shape too, even the top still works so, does that make mine bigger than yours?
It is a bit of a foolish analogy isn't it?
A car will last as long as a person is willing to put in the effort to maintain it and take care of it...regardless of brand.

i personally would feel more embarrassed to be seen in a 1989 Benz/BMW/Lexus than driving a Corolla of the same year.
Why on earth would that be? Any 1989 car in good shape should be something nice to drive. It is nice to know someone cared enough about their vehicle to still be able to drive it after almost 20 years.

All that said, seeing older cars on the road are only a rarity in Ontario. Out West, 10 to 20 year old cars are only teenagers with plenty of life left in em :lol:

[weedb0y]

Because you said upscale cars...

said the guy who drives an Audi.

Unless, its an R8..you are in the same class as a Caddy.

[weedb0y]

i personally would feel more embarrassed to be seen in a 1989 Benz/BMW/Lexus than driving a Corolla of the same year.

I disagree. How do you come to that conclusion?

[DeltasInTheSky]

i personally would feel more embarrassed to be seen in a 1989 Benz/BMW/Lexus than driving a Corolla of the same year.

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/1987-1989-bmw-m5-1.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Mercedes-560-SL-1.jpg/800px-Mercedes-560-SL-1.jpg

In my opinion, not at all. If I saw someone driving an old BMW/MB, like the ones I've shown. I think they REALLY know their cars, and their not like the rest of society - let's just get a Camry, let's just get a Taurus.

[weedb0y]

In my opinion, not at all. If I saw someone driving an old BMW/MB, like the ones I've shown. I think they REALLY know their cars, and their not like the rest of society - let's just get a Camry, let's just get a Taurus.

100% agree. Lets forget about the RFD Civic/Corolla mentality and how they are gift to the automotive world.

And old school Benz is still a benz.

Corolla will be a rusted piece of crap from the same year. Ever notice that you barely see these old Benzes rusted?

The paint, driveablility, handling is 10x better than your econoboxes

[zzz3]

i personally would feel more embarrassed to be seen in a 1989 Benz/BMW/Lexus than driving a Corolla of the same year.

Lets see so your saying you would be more 'embarrassed' to be seen driving an 89:

E30 (best 3 ever):
http://www.corradocentral.com/images/m3/DSCN0062.JPG
E34 (5):
http://www.m5board.com/articles/usa2007/usa2/DSC01698.jpg
R129 (SL):
http://www.gdtm.net/MBimages/R129-AMG.jpg

Over a 89 corolla?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:88-92_Corolla.jpg

Unless of course your talking about a AE86/92...:cheesygri
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u22/eMagiUK/Motorsport/ae86.jpg

Yous sir deserve an F5 :lol: (im guessing your a Brock Lesnar fan?)


Why on earth would that be? Any 1989 car in good shape should be something nice to drive. It is nice to know someone cared enough about their vehicle to still be able to drive it after almost 20 years.

All that said, seeing older cars on the road are only a rarity in Ontario. Out West, 10 to 20 year old cars are only teenagers with plenty of life left in em :lol:
+1, i consider them to be classic, and when a lot of them didnt go overboard in tech but were really drivers cars i.e. e30/34

[AudiDude]

said the guy who drives an Audi.

Unless, its an R8..you are in the same class as a Caddy.

Says the guy who owns a cheaper Audi an R8 and a Caddy?

Pull your head out of your @$$. Go shopping for a 6 year old Audi/BMW/Mercedes and a Cadillac and realize the Cadillac is a rattle trap with half the plastic falling off, inside and out. Nobody needs an R8 to beat a Cadillac, your lack of experience in owning cars is bursting through. Try looking at an Audi made in 1990, no rust (unlees its been in an accident or you leave a chip for 6+ years untreated. Are there any Cadillacs from 1990 that are actually driven that can make the same claim? Nope, not unless it was a garage queen.

What do you think I drive an Audi for? I've tried premuim American cars and they were OK for the first four years. Then the sunroof starts to whistle (more), and the rust starts to drool through the bubbles forming on the fenders. The door panels rattle when you close the door. Some of the "upscale" electronics and toys stop working. And a GM favourite, some of the emissions starts to fail and your dash looks like a Christmas tree. I drove regular American cars, the whole thing fails. I drive premium American cars and the motor lasts and works well, but the body and interior fails. I drive a German car, all of a sudden the majority of the troubles are gone.

As someone who used to install car stereos, you can tell a quality car when you take it apart. The liberal use of velcro in a Corvette and cheap spring clips and fake wood in a Caddy says it all. Not so with Audi, BMW,Mercedes,Lexus and (most, but not all)Toyota.