Reliability Concern: BMW Vs. Merc

[kkw3221]

hey, my father is planning to buy one of those.

What I want him to buy is Lexus LS460 becuase it is reliable and it would be more "quiet" than BMW and Merc.

However, he just wants to go for either 760Li or S600. (no A8 since my uncle has one)

Well, I really like the look of S class but I dont think the handling would be nicer than bimmer, so I cant really compare what is better.

So I just thought that knowing reliability of both cars would be a good way to compare.

What would you suggest to buy?

Also, according to mbusa.com, S63 amg is cheeper than S600 which I do not understand why. IF any one can explain me why, it would be nice.

Extra question! Is the online quote from belairdirect.com mostly right? I am just curious that when I looked for my insurance quotes for Honda Accord 4dr, G35 Coupe(used) and IS250, it was approximately the same about $340-380. (I am under 25 so I expected it will be about $400-500/month)

[LegiT]

Well, I don't know what citeria your father wants to base his decision on but it's tough lol. Performance? Luxury? Or a good mix of both? He should go check out all three cars and take them for a spin. It'll make decisions much easier.


Here's a person who's in a similar situation with regards to the S63 vs S600 situation. There are much more details available for you to compare the differences between the two.
http://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=210927

[bythehour]

In terms of reliability, both cars are gizmo-filled and are bound to have their share of problems. The previous-gen S-class was atrocious with its electronics, and cost MB a lot of customers as a result. My switch to BMW hasn't been much better, as I've had my share of niggly problems.

MB and BMW are much different beasts. You will probably like the 760 much more, while your dad may prefer the S. Both cars are highly competent cruisers, but the BMW *feels* more agile than it looks.

As you are buying new, maintenance and cost will not be a concern. BMW has a 4 year no-charge maintenance program. AFAIK, MB dropped its equivalent a couple years ago.

Here's the hitch:

1. If you plan to keep the car for more than 4 years, the no charge maintenance plan SUCKS. It is bare minimum, and you will want to incur the cost of extra oil changes, etc. I used to complain that every visit to the MB shop would cost $1,000+. With BMW, it's usually only $800+.

2. If you plan to sell the car in a few years, S-class and 7-series depreciate like crazy. You'll be taking a hit.

Bottom line: Just buy the car that makes you (or your dad) smile.

[Pete_Coach]

In terms of reliability, both cars are gizmo-filled and are bound to have their share of problems. .....

Here's the hitch:

1. If you plan to keep the car for more than 4 years, the no charge maintenance plan SUCKS. It is bare minimum, and you will want to incur the cost of extra oil changes, etc. I used to complain that every visit to the MB shop would cost $1,000+. With BMW, it's usually only $800+.

2. If you plan to sell the car in a few years, S-class and 7-series depreciate like crazy. You'll be taking a hit.

Bottom line: Just buy the car that makes you (or your dad) smile.

I don't know your experience and it sounds like it was bad but, all the time I had my BMW, the plan was great. I did not even pay for an oil change for 4 years. I did not have to pay for any parts, even the so called "wear" items were covered (brakes, wiper blades bulbs etc). I guess my dealer was OK (Otto's in Ottawa).
I now have a Mercedes and again, the maintenance plan (although I have not had to use it yet) sounds identical to the one I had on y BMW.
As far as car maintenance costs are concerned, this group of cars are all the same. They are all "gizmo-filled", the Japanese cars even more so, and shop rates are higher than even the normal OEM rates. Parts are almost the same in both OEM and aftermarket for most of the vehicles. Then again, the reliability differs, but to what extent? It all depends on how you drive and I am fairly certain that the OP's father is not a weekend racer and therefore the car should last a long time.

[Slimfast]

it's usually the electrics that go, the drivetrain in most modern cars are rock solid, mb and bmw included.

[TenzoR]

it's usually the electrics that go, the drivetrain in most modern cars are rock solid, mb and bmw included.

yeah these cars are packed with technology and electronics that are not available in many cars

[bythehour]

I don't know your experience and it sounds like it was bad but, all the time I had my BMW, the plan was great. I did not even pay for an oil change for 4 years. I did not have to pay for any parts, even the so called "wear" items were covered (brakes, wiper blades bulbs etc). I guess my dealer was OK (Otto's in Ottawa).

For a lease, the maintenance plan is fine. But, if you plan to keep your car, there's no way that you should be doing oil changes every 24,000Km.

Yes, the dealer (and more specifically, service advisor) is important. I went to BMW Town & Country and then to Toronto. The T&C guys were awful. They are supposed to cover wear items, but the definition of "wear" is subject to interpretation.

[thelefteyeguy]

has your father looked into a Lexus LS 600h...damn that's hella sexy

the white with black emblem...is hot

[zzz3]

Dont Maserati Quattroporte's go for around the same price as a s63 amg, i mean a 4 door Ferrari beats a beamer, benz and lex any day IMO.

[crono06]

IS-F ftw

[gilboman]

Dont Maserati Quattroporte's go for around the same price as a s63 amg, i mean a 4 door Ferrari beats a beamer, benz and lex any day IMO.

beats it in what way? if the car is to be driven regularly, a lex,benz or bimmer will smack around a ferrari any day.

[bythehour]

IS-F ftw

?!?!

The IS-F isn't even in the same class as the cars being considered here....

But, since you've raised the issue...You can buy the real deal, or the wannabe.

E90 M3. Nuff said.

[kkw3221]

Thx for replies!

hm.. I forgot to mention that the car will be brought into Korea.


Unfortunately the warrenty is not transferable, but I believe it is worth buying here and bring it oversee because the price of S600 in Canada is about Avg $190-210k whereas in Korea they are over $300K.

Maserati is one of my favourite car, but there is no service centre for that brand in Korea.. Plus, my father does not want a "sporty-look" car since he is running his own business.

[thelefteyeguy]

woh...what's the cost to freight that beast?


im thinking your father will need to pay import taxes and korean taxes

[kkw3221]

Well, if I drive the car for 6 months then I can avoid most of taxes. Still it will make approx. about $50K difference after taxes and freight.

woh...what's the cost to freight that beast?


im thinking your father will need to pay import taxes and korean taxes

[kkw3221]

Bottom line: Just buy the car that makes you (or your dad) smile.

The car that makes me smile would be.. CL63 amg?:lol:

[bythehour]

The car that makes me smile would be.. CL63 amg?:lol:

Amen to that!

[zzz3]

beats it in what way? if the car is to be driven regularly, a lex,benz or bimmer will smack around a ferrari any day.

Cand you elaborate what you mean by the ambiguous use of 'smack'? Perhaps i maybe mistaken but im pretty sure you havent driven all of them and reviewed them back to back...

When the Quattroporte was first introduced it had its share of problems with fit and finish especially in regards to the transmission. Last year all that was fixed when it was updated for 2007:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/exotic/112_0703_2007_maserati_quattroporte/index.html

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=6&article_id=5007

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/ultra_luxury_lounge/2007_maserati_quattroporte_automatic_first_drive_r eview

Of course the Quattroporte has been given a redesign for 2009 and it gets better:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/luxury_sedans/2009_maserati_quattroporte_s_first_drive_review

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/exotic/112_0807_2009_maserati_quattroporte_s_first_drive/technical_highlights.html

As for a comparison:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0712_high_end_luxury_sedan_comparison/judgement.html

I for one would take a faster, better handling, pininfarina designed, ferrari sourced sedan over any of those mentioned.

[gilboman]

Cand you elaborate what you mean by the ambiguous use of 'smack'? Perhaps i maybe mistaken but im pretty sure you havent driven all of them and reviewed them back to back...



have you driven them all back to back?:lol:

no need to post those garbage here on "first drives". go read what i wrote, i said driven regularly as in not just for a weekend.

you need to go look at sites like edmunds and their long term test drive of different ferrari's as well as look at how totally unreliable and undependable they are. ferrari's are not daily drivers.

you seem to completely miss the point e.g. a lotus elise would easily be more fun to drive than a corolla. but as a daily driver, a corolla would easily trounce it.

road tests/first drives are fine and all for magazine racing, but they do not consider things like reliability, service and how long its gonna take to get a part to fix an issue. and a low volume specialized car like the maserati is not gonna compare favorably to more mass market BMW's, Benz's who have wider dealer network and a theortically easier and faster means to get a required part.

[zzz3]

have you driven them all back to back?:lol:

no need to post those garbage here on "first drives". go read what i wrote, i said driven regularly as in not just for a weekend.

Why would you classify the reviews as garbage?
-Is there an issue with journalistic integrity etc...please enlighten me

you need to go look at sites like edmunds and their long term test drive of different ferrari's as well as look at how totally unreliable and undependable they are. ferrari's are not daily drivers.

I checked edmunds, seems they have not gotten their hands on one, minus one consumer review:
http://www.edmunds.com/maserati/quattroporte/2008/consumerreview.html

I dont know what point you are making, but from what i understand you believe ferraris are unreliable and undependable. I checked edmunds again and there are only 1 consumer review for 07 599 and 612.

The term reliability can also take on new meaning when applied to Ferrari's and, i mean do we count wear and tear from track use/spirited driving besides the regular usage of the term reliability with say corollas, bmw 7, or even quattroporte ( i doubt they will be taking it to a track). Most Ferraris i believe, with the exception of F40/50/Enzo and Scuderia's, are perfectly capable daily drivers.

you seem to completely miss the point e.g. a lotus elise would easily be more fun to drive than a corolla. but as a daily driver, a corolla would easily trounce it.

I understand your analogy in regards to performance benefits vs. maintenance but it is completely flawed as an argument. Firstly the difference in price results in two different types of owners, one who would buy for reliability and gas, the other who dosent care about anything but performance. Also you are essentially comparing what is a track car to a econo car so i dont know who in their mind would use a lotus as a 3 season daily driver. Quattroportes have the same amenities found in merc and beamer, and the same extent the same can be said for GT Ferraris such as the 599 and especially the 612.

road tests/first drives are fine and all for magazine racing, but they do not consider things like reliability, service and how long its gonna take to get a part to fix an issue. and a low volume specialized car like the maserati is not gonna compare favorably to more mass market BMW's, Benz's who have wider dealer network and a theortically easier and faster means to get a required part.

I have yet to see proof, or lack of it, that a Quattroporte is not as good as a daily drive as merc, beamer or lex. Im going to guess and say that you are inferring to cost of ownership in general and thus the Quattroporte would be a poor one, but that is all relative, i mean consider this, when you are buying a 100k+ car, is cost of ownership usually a concern (i.e. resale, gas, insurance etc..)?

As for service im sure i definitely am not the first or last one to have ever had the luck or finance of having repairs/tune up at a ferrari/maserati dealership. In fact i would not be surprised if every Maserati/Ferrari owner left with a 'happy ending' after their visit to have their car fixed lol (pun/jk).

Boxster's, carreras, z06s, cls heck even m3/5 are all daily drivers, the central reason being cost of ownership is not an issue...

[maniacshopper]

engine wise I trust the BMW over the MB.
If you drive wot on teh MB, it has a greater chance of blowing. The BMW if it detects that an idiot is behind the wheel, doing burnouts for like 3 mins, before it overloads, it will shut itself off, and cool off.

It was shown on a road challenge show hosted by Goldberg, the philipino with the m3 last summer?

[HP_John]

As a brand, BMW is generally more reliable than M-B according to Consumer Reports. I wouldn't go off 1 person's experience, as every brand (no matter how reliable) will have some lemons. For example, Lexus is generally 1 of the most reliable yet there are some Lexus that have been very unreliable. If you listened to these owners, you'd think Lexus was unreliable.

Traditionally, the 7 & S have been less reliable due to so many new gizmos. They get the new gizmos before they're trickled down to the cheaper models, by that time the manufacturer has worked out the kinks in those gizmos.

[AGR-1]

hm.. I forgot to mention that the car will be brought into Korea.

You should buy the car in Korea and have a correct ownership experience than trying to save some money on a highly sophisticated car and have dealers in Korea give you the cold shoulder.

The customers that have an S Class or 7 Series usually keep these vehicles for 3 years (before the warranty runs out) more often than not they are leased...if they elect to keep the cars for a longer period of time they will usually buy the extended warranty to save themselves grief and aggravations.

Do these customers care about long term reliability, or do they care about going to the service department, being given a comparable or close to comparable loaner and returning to or having their car delivered once its done.

In Korea the Benz with the biggest number on the trunk will have the most impact, attract the most attention, and have the most street presence.

[kkw3221]

hm.. I forgot to mention that the car will be brought into Korea.

You should buy the car in Korea and have a correct ownership experience than trying to save some money on a highly sophisticated car and have dealers in Korea give you the cold shoulder.

The customers that have an S Class or 7 Series usually keep these vehicles for 3 years (before the warranty runs out) more often than not they are leased...if they elect to keep the cars for a longer period of time they will usually buy the extended warranty to save themselves grief and aggravations.

Do these customers care about long term reliability, or do they care about going to the service department, being given a comparable or close to comparable loaner and returning to or having their car delivered once its done.

In Korea the Benz with the biggest number on the trunk will have the most impact, attract the most attention, and have the most street presence.

Well, I totally agree what you are saying. However, the difference b/w buying those cars in Korea and buying and bring it from Canada is only the warrenty. Since warrenty is not like "protection plan", after 3 or 4 years, these cars would be the same situation(I mean since the warrenty of the car bought in Korea would be expired). So in my opinion, although there would be some problems with the car, it would not cost like $50k(which I can save) for 3 years. If it does, then how could BMW and MB become one of the best car company?

[VivienM]

Well, I totally agree what you are saying. However, the difference b/w buying those cars in Korea and buying and bring it from Canada is only the warrenty. Since warrenty is not like "protection plan", after 3 or 4 years, these cars would be the same situation(I mean since the warrenty of the car bought in Korea would be expired). So in my opinion, although there would be some problems with the car, it would not cost like $50k(which I can save) for 3 years. If it does, then how could BMW and MB become one of the best car company?

First question: will the Korean authorities let you do this? In Canada, for example, it is ENTIRELY FORBIDDEN to import vehicles from any country other than the U.S. (unless they are 15 years old).

Second question: what the hell do you do for service? You'll have Canadian spec bumpers, emissions controls, etc. What makes you think the Korean MB (or BMW) dealer network has ANY ability to get spare parts for the Canadian-spec version of those?

[kkw3221]

hey,
Answer for 1st question: Yes, there is no law they can block me. For example, a lot of people are jumping into these kinds of business (importing cars) in Korea, and they offer their warrenty services to customers. Since the prices of imported cars in Korea are way too high than in America, over 70% of people who are driving imported cars bought theirs from those companies, not from MB Korea or BMW Korea. In addition, bringing new cars into Korea may cost more money because they charge many types of taxes on it, but if the car has been used more than 6 months then only certain % of tax just apply.

For the 2nd question, I want to ask you this. Is there any cars made in CANADA? I don't think so. Mostly MB Korea and BMW Korea brings their cars from Germany and US. Plus, you can get the parts from those companies that I talked about in Q1.

Once again, I've done my research more than enough and actually ppl do import their cars by themselves. Also You might think it is kinda too complicated when warrenty services are needed, but I believe it is worth saving $50K than having 3-4years warrenty service.

First question: will the Korean authorities let you do this? In Canada, for example, it is ENTIRELY FORBIDDEN to import vehicles from any country other than the U.S. (unless they are 15 years old).

Second question: what the hell do you do for service? You'll have Canadian spec bumpers, emissions controls, etc. What makes you think the Korean MB (or BMW) dealer network has ANY ability to get spare parts for the Canadian-spec version of those?

[PhilipsElectronics]

hey,

Once again, I've done my research more than enough and actually ppl do import their cars by themselves. Also You might think it is kinda too complicated when warrenty services are needed, but I believe it is worth saving $50K than having 3-4years warrenty service.

How is there even such a large difference for the same car in Korea? Are they really taxing the cars that much over there? Funny, because it's not like the accent gets taxed that much here...

[kkw3221]

There are so many types of tax in Korea when ppl are buying a car. For example, tax for buying luxury car, Licensing Fee about 10% or more of the value of car, etc. Azera from Hyundai, the base price of that car is $35000 + options, but here in America, it is much cheaper. (Well, you cannot deal with dealers in Korea).

But the major reason why those imported cars in Korea are so expensive is because dealers takes alot of benefits from it. On the newspaper, when a dealer sell S600, they earn about 40-50K in each car.

How is there even such a large difference for the same car in Korea? Are they really taxing the cars that much over there? Funny, because it's not like the accent gets taxed that much here...

[VivienM]

For the 2nd question, I want to ask you this. Is there any cars made in CANADA? I don't think so. Mostly MB Korea and BMW Korea brings their cars from Germany and US. Plus, you can get the parts from those companies that I talked about in Q1.

The German manufacturers DEFINITELY use different parts for bumpers, emissions, etc., depending on what country the vehicle is sold in.

What makes you think MB/BMW Korea can order non-Korean-spec parts from head office in Germany?

[kkw3221]

Well, then how are you going to explain the companies who imports cars themselves from US or Germany do provide their own warrenty services and parts? I am 100% sure that there are not much of problems as you think. Friend of mine runs the business of importing and selling cars.

The German manufacturers DEFINITELY use different parts for bumpers, emissions, etc., depending on what country the vehicle is sold in.

What makes you think MB/BMW Korea can order non-Korean-spec parts from head office in Germany?

[AGR-1]

The potential Korean customer that can afford an S600 will expect a full Korean ownership experience with his purchase. Acquiring a "grey market" S600 to save some money and forego the "ownership experience" is probably not an acceptable alternative.

[bythehour]

Importing grey market cars is quite common in parts of Europe and Asia.

It is quite popular in China and Portugal; not only because it usually saves money, but also because there are long waiting lists for popular cars.

The dealers will not give you the cold shoulder; they will be happy to take your money.

[VivienM]

Well, then how are you going to explain the companies who imports cars themselves from US or Germany do provide their own warrenty services and parts? I am 100% sure that there are not much of problems as you think. Friend of mine runs the business of importing and selling cars.

Look.

You posted here, seeking advice on something that several posters think is a foolish idea. You respond to EACH of our replies trying to dismiss the concerns we've raised.

If you're not interested in our opinions, why bother asking?

[kkw3221]

What is the title of this post?
I have done a lot of researches, and raised a conclusion that it is worth to do that.

My question was about the comparison of two companies but you are just trying to tell me it is not possible to import in Korea or not worth it. Well, are you 100% sure about your opinion?

Well, since English is my second language, each replies may seem "rude" but I wasnt try to be. If so, then I am sorry to everyone. I was just trying to tell you that I have done a lot (I mean A LOT)of research about the problem you've raised.

Since someone said about warrenty service, I had to mention that warrenty service would not be one of the consideration because it would be worthless. That was ALL.

Lastly, as you asked me at the end of your sentence, I also want to ask you something. Is it rude to correct something if it is incorrect? Is that rude to give someone right information who has wrong information?


Look.

You posted here, seeking advice on something that several posters think is a foolish idea. You respond to EACH of our replies trying to dismiss the concerns we've raised.

If you're not interested in our opinions, why bother asking?

[blueraiin]

owned by mr. kwon!

and i would buy the merc, especially if it was going to an asian country...its all about baller status there - doesn't get much better then a merc (unless you want to buy a rolls / maybach :P)

[kkw3221]

Hey, thanks for your post :)
The reason why he wants to change his car is because of handling and the thing when you are on highway, some cars you feel you are on water(like Azera Hyundai)and some cars (like BMW) feel like they are grabbing the road. (I dont kno if their is a specific word for that)
My father is driving the top model of Hyundai which is called Equus, but after he tried 5 series by a chance, he hated Hyundai.

In short, in terms of handling and the THING that I talked about, other than looks, which company would be better?


owned by mr. kwon!

and i would buy the merc, especially if it was going to an asian country...its all about baller status there - doesn't get much better then a merc (unless you want to buy a rolls / maybach :P)

[p110232]

Hey, thanks for your post :)
The reason why he wants to change his car is because of handling and the thing when you are on highway, some cars you feel you are on water(like Azera Hyundai)and some cars (like BMW) feel like they are grabbing the road. (I dont kno if their is a specific word for that)
My father is driving the top model of Hyundai which is called Equus, but after he tried 5 series by a chance, he hated Hyundai.

In short, in terms of handling and the THING that I talked about, other than looks, which company would be better?

The "THING" is loosely called by media as FEEDBACK or ROAD FEEL or "the tires communicate to the driver"

I know exactly what your father meant... like someone turned-on the lights all of a sudden.

[Shojin]

If you're considering handling and overall driving dynamics, then BMW has the edge.

MB is better suited to those looking more for image.

[trueno92]

in either case, with shipping cars grey-market to foreign countries, esp asia, I'd be really concerned to get car-jacked, OR it getting stolen.

cars in japan are taxed 2-3x their normal value, once it gets past the 2-3 year mark, the taxes start to outweigh their resale values. In hong kong, cars are taxed 100%, effectively doubling their original sale price.

I can't imagine it being much different in korea as their must be a push to keep koreans purchasing new korean auto's much like japan.

once you get the car over there, how would you be able to insure it? is this a common practice to do the import individually? I would think that most koreans would be buying their luxury import thru some grey market dealer that does most of the paper work for you.

[kkw3221]

Hey, I would like to say it is really common that people are importing individually. As I mentioned, it is not worth to import "NEW" cars because huge tax will make the value of the car almost same as cars in Korea(still cheaper about 30K, Grey markets are selling those cars $30K cheaper at least than MB Korea dealership), but if you use it for more than 6 months(resistered by your name) in Canada and import it, then they dont tax you much. Importing thru grey market dealer would be much easier and convenient, but it will cost you the tax as "NEW CAR" other than "USED".

I am an international student in Canada now and I saw a lot of Korean ppl(indivisuals) buying MB or BMWs, using it at least 6months and bring it to Korea.

I would like to give you an ironic example. There is brand-new car which is called Genesis from Hyundai. The base price of that car in Korea is about $45K and if you add options it will go up to $60K. So, what is happening is, people goes to grey market dealers to import the exported Genesis since MSRP in US is about $35K(well, you would know you can deal for great discount on Hyundai cars). Still the warrenty service can be issued, but ppl just dont want to pay 2x more on it just because of warrenty service. There was an article saying "More expensive, the more cars they sell in Korea." You might think it is really ridiculous and impossible but in reality it happens.:cry:


once you get the car over there, how would you be able to insure it? is this a common practice to do the import individually? I would think that most koreans would be buying their luxury import thru some grey market dealer that does most of the paper work for you.