Proper procedure to get a M/T rolling.

[blibbertibs]

Hi guys,

This might have been asked before, but I was too lazy to search all the threads that showed up in my search.

I got a manual transmission car just yesterday and I'm able to get it rolling with no problem.

My question is, what's the proper way to get the car moving that reduces wear on the clutch?

The way I drive, is I rev the engine to about 1.5k RPM and then slowly let out the clutch. (gas first, clutch second)

Should I be releasing the clutch to the friction so the RPM dips a bit, and then start applying the gas? (clutch first, gas second)

[scan]

This is a good question. I learned to drive manual on my own and I'm not really sure of the correct way. What I do is mostly how you describe it. I clutch, gas a bit, let the clutch out slowly until it catches, and gas more and release. Of course this is done very quickly so it is a seemless move.

I've seen it done other ways though. I was in someone's car once and he was "pumping" it until he got it going. That's the best way I could describe it. He would let the clutch out slowly and pump it until the clutch caught.

Another way I've seen it done was when I saw my friend drive. He lets out his clutch until the car rumbles and is almost going to stall then gases it. I don't know how/why he does that because I think if going up a big hill he is certain to stall it.

[AzNCrAzYcOoLeR]

When I was learning, I would clutch, go in gear, step on the gas till 1.5-2 then slowly release the clutch and gas until I'm off the clutch completely.

NOW, when I launch, I clutch, go in gear, tap the gas once which makes the rpm jump to 1.5-2, catch the rev then release the clutch as I get speed. Of course this is done within a second. My second way uses less clutch.

[ichpen]

That's correct. Generally you want to spend less time 'riding' the clutch i.e. having the clutch (plate) partially engaged. That and high-rev take offs do the most damage.

The amount of revs you need really depends on the car/engine setup but 1.5-2k should suffice. Believe me you'll know when it's too little (engine bogging) or too much (wheelspin).

[blibbertibs]

That's correct. Generally you want to spend less time 'riding' the clutch i.e. having the clutch (plate) partially engaged. That and high-rev take offs do the most damage.

Which is correct??

[ichpen]

The way I drive, is I rev the engine to about 1.5k RPM and then slowly let out the clutch. (gas first, clutch second)

This. Though you can do this simultaneously when you get the hang of it i.e. apply gas as you start releasing the clutch.

[scan]

correct me if I"m wrong but a large portion of the clutch wear comes from improper down shifting.

[ichpen]

Another way I've seen it done was when I saw my friend drive. He lets out his clutch until the car rumbles and is almost going to stall then gases it. I don't know how/why he does that because I think if going up a big hill he is certain to stall it.

This is NOT the good way.

You should apply a little gas as you start to release the clutch. Depending on your car's 'biting point' where clutch plate begins to engage, you may start releasing the clutch before applying gas or vice versa.

For example in my present car, my biting point is about a millimeter above the floor hence I need to apply gas first then start releasing as I don't have much clutch travel.

[ichpen]

correct me if I"m wrong but a large portion of the clutch wear comes from improper down shifting.

Worst by far is dropping the clutch with high-rpm as fun as it may be. Also almost as bad is when you truly ride the clutch i.e. use idle engine momentum without any gas to get the car moving meaning you spend more time partially engaged. Also a lot of people (myself included on occasion) tend to rest their left foot on the clutch and often times realise that they're in fact keeping the clutch plate from fully engaging.

Bear in mind clutches these days are pretty reliable and will easily put up with daily driving even if your technique isn't perfected.

[rems]

I took a lesson from Shifters and this is what they told me.

1. clutch fully depressed
2. gas and rev up to 2K (depends on the car) and hold
3. release the clutch up to the friction point.
4. count to 4
5. release clutch
6. apply gas accordingly

[Neb]

I took a lesson from Shifters and this is what they told me.

1. clutch fully depressed
2. gas and rev up to 2K (depends on the car) and hold
3. release the clutch up to the friction point.
4. count to 4
5. release clutch
6. apply gas accordingly

I think Shifters might also operate a transmission shop :) You'll need that clutch replaced pretty soon.. 4 seconds??? Takes 1 to 1.5sec at most to engage teh clutch fully in 1st gear. Dragging it out that long means more wear. And 2k is kinda high. most cars idle at 750rpm, 1250-1500 is plenty and it will minimize clutch wear.

[blibbertibs]

Count to 4 does not always mean 4 seconds :P

[ES_Revenge]

I think Shifters might also operate a transmission shop :) You'll need that clutch replaced pretty soon.. 4 seconds??? Takes 1 to 1.5sec at most to engage teh clutch fully in 1st gear. Dragging it out that long means more wear. And 2k is kinda high. most cars idle at 750rpm, 1250-1500 is plenty and it will minimize clutch wear.

I agree, four seconds--a bit much to slip the clutch for. Also I agree with the 2000rpm bit, but it does depend on the car too. Some cars will need more RPM, others less. You can't apply the same RPM for every car out there. I mean in an RS4 you can release the clutch (slowly, but not so much as to cause excessive slip) without even touching the throttle and the car will start to move forward fine :)

rems does have a rotary engine which does pretty much nothing without RPM though, so maybe that's why 2k is needed?

[BladeX]

i gas and release clutch simaltenously

[rems]

I think the count to 4 was just to ensure the gear was fully engaged. You don't want to do a clutch dump since that'll be worse. But I can tell now when it's fully in gear so no more counting. But yeah my car requires a higher rpm to get it going. I could launch at 1500 rpms but it'll be a crawl and the engine might start to bog. :-P

[ichpen]

I think the count to 4 was just to ensure the gear was fully engaged. You don't want to do a clutch dump since that'll be worse. But I can tell now when it's fully in gear so no more counting. But yeah my car requires a higher rpm to get it going. I could launch at 1500 rpms but it'll be a crawl and the engine might start to bog. :-P

Meh... You'd go crazy with the count in stop and go traffic. It's personal preference but in general dumping is bad, riding excessively is bad, high rpm launches are very bad if done frequently.

[scan]

Meh... You'd go crazy with the count in stop and go traffic. It's personal preference but in general dumping is bad, riding excessively is bad, high rpm launches are very bad if done frequently.

I dont' know anything about shifters but imo it's all about feel. You can be taught/told this and that but I think it just depends on the vehicle. As you drive it you start to learn it's "personality".

[Pete_Coach]

correct me if I"m wrong but a large portion of the clutch wear comes from improper down shifting.

You can wear the clutch material shifting up or down, both can be detrimental.
To drive away,you should rev the engine up very little (as little as possible and slowly) and at the same time, releasing the clutch until you have engagement and then drive away. Anytime that you rev the engine up high (1.5 t0m 2K rpm's) and then slowly release the clutch to engagement, you wear the clutch down. Ideally, your engagement point will be a very low rpm and you drive away.
Now, if you want to "get off the line" quickly, then you rev it up high (into the power band), slowly release the clutch until engagement occurs, then hammer the gas and release the clutch simultaneously while trying to maintain the revs in the power band.
My opinion and what works for me :)

[scan]

You can wear the clutch material shifting up or down, both can be detrimental.
To drive away,you should rev the engine up very little (as little as possible and slowly) and at the same time, releasing the clutch until you have engagement and then drive away. Anytime that you rev the engine up high (1.5 t0m 2K rpm's) and then slowly release the clutch to engagement, you wear the clutch down. Ideally, your engagement point will be a very low rpm and you drive away.
Now, if you want to "get off the line" quickly, then you rev it up high (into the power band), slowly release the clutch until engagement occurs, then hammer the gas and release the clutch simultaneously while trying to maintain the revs in the power band.
My opinion and what works for me :)

what I meant was people who downshift without rev matching would probably wear the clutch even more than an improper start. It was not regarding whether you're shifting up or down.

[seftonm]

Holy moly most seem to give their vehicles serious rpm's when getting moving. I try to keep the engine under 1000 rpm when slipping the clutch to get cars moving.

[HBP]

Holy moly most seem to give their vehicles serious rpm's when getting moving. I try to keep the engine under 1000 rpm when slipping the clutch to get cars moving.

Same.

Sometimes I don't even give gas and just drop the clutch slowly, especially on down hills.

[scan]

Holy moly most seem to give their vehicles serious rpm's when getting moving. I try to keep the engine under 1000 rpm when slipping the clutch to get cars moving.

so you start it like my friend does.

[Avatar]

Nowadays clutch will generally last for the life of the car unless you abuse it.

I normally do it by feeling and adjust the gas/clutch pedals accordingly so that the car move smoothly (no jerking). That happens to up/down shift too. You are a pro if you can make your passenger feels like you are driving an automatic.

[bobby5]

Same.
Sometimes I don't even give gas and just drop the clutch slowly, especially on down hills.

+1
Usually one doesn't need 500rpm more than the idling rpm to get moving, unless you're going uphill or need a speedy getaway.

It's all about learning the feel of the engagement point and engine response.

[scan]

+1
Usually one doesn't need 500rpm more than the idling rpm to get moving, unless you're going uphill or need a speedy getaway.

It's all about learning the feel of the engagement point and engine response.

uh... i dont' know about your car but mine, in neutral, is already over 500rpm

[bobby5]

uh... i dont' know about your car but mine, in neutral, is already over 500rpm

Pardon my English
What I mean is (idling+500)rpm.
Say idling is 800rpm, so 800+500 = 1300 rpm

[seftonm]

so you start it like my friend does.
Not quite, I generally don't like to have the vehicle rumble like it's going to stall. If it gets that low, I feed it a bit more throttle.

[feet_]

best way to learn.



- goto a empty parking lot.

- dont even touch the gas, and shift 1-3or4th gear. depending on engine power.

- that will teach you the clutch engagement point.

- once your leg knows where it is.

- push clutch in, shift into gear, initally letup on the clutch , engage, then gas.

- once you get used to it. apply gas a slight delay of depressing the clutch.

ez!

then learn how to rev match/heel toe

[M-e-X-x]

i go clutch first, then gas... if u're revving and holding down the clutch, aren't u burning it?

well, more like i go simultaneous haha

[thephenom]

best way to learn.



- goto a empty parking lot.

- dont even touch the gas, and shift 1-3or4th gear. depending on engine power.

- that will teach you the clutch engagement point.

- once your leg knows where it is.

- push clutch in, shift into gear, initally letup on the clutch , engage, then gas.

- once you get used to it. apply gas a slight delay of depressing the clutch.

ez!

then learn how to rev match/heel toe

The best way to learn clutch engagement point from my experience. Learn how to balance the car with only the clutch on a slight hill. Just don't find a very steep hill, or do this for a long time, otherwise it's just premature wear.

I don't really understand how people drive without rev match/heel toe, I do it on a daily basis.

[THINKPADT61]

This is a good thread! Just order myself a civic with manual tranny and is my first manual!

So exciting!

[M-e-X-x]

^ good stuff... fwd cars are easy to learn stick on :)

[Pete_Coach]

^ good stuff... fwd cars are easy to learn stick on :)

I don't think front wheel drive is any different to learn on than rear wheel drive or all wheel drive. the actions are identical.
There are differences in clutch "feel", pressure required and, clutch engagement pedal positions, but that difference can occur even between cars of the same model.

[AzNCrAzYcOoLeR]

This is a good thread! Just order myself a civic with manual tranny and is my first manual!

So exciting!

The new civic is a bit harder to learn cause its drive by wire....

[scan]

The new civic is a bit harder to learn cause its drive by wire....


what does this mean?

[Shojin]

what does this mean?

I think it means the gas pedal is not mechanically linked to the fuel pump, but rather is an electronic lever.

[Shojin]

Maybe you guys can answer this.

When slowing to a stop, do you

a) clutch out and ride the brake until the car stops, then throw it in 1st
b) clutch out, ride the brake but change gears to match the speed (without clutching out)
c) clutch out, change gears, clutch in (repeat while slowing)
d) something else

Doing c) helps with brake wear but is a lot more work. The advantage is you're always ready to go.

Also, how many of you use the handbrake to help on steep hillstarts? Or, are you skilled enough to time clutch uptake or even have your right foot easing up on the brake while giving gas at the same time?

[M-e-X-x]

Maybe you guys can answer this.

When slowing to a stop, do you

a) clutch in and ride the brake until the car stops, then throw it in 1st
b) clutch in, ride the brake but change gears to match the speed (without clutching out)
c) clutch in, change gears, clutch out (repeat while slowing)
d) something else

Doing c) helps with brake wear but is a lot more work. The advantage is you're always ready to go.

Also, how many of you use the handbrake to help on steep hillstarts? Or, are you skilled enough to time clutch uptake or even have your right foot easing up on the brake while giving gas at the same time?

a) no, u're riding the clutch
b) no, u're riding the clutch, and u can't rev-match from what i gather from reading that
c) i do this at times

no shame in starting with handbrake on the steep ones... or i'm lazy and just balance the clutch

[KawaiiTentacleBeast]

I think it means the gas pedal is not mechanically linked to the fuel pump, but rather is an electronic lever.

Gas pedals are not linked to the fuel pump in any car. :lol:

[blibbertibs]

to stop, i usually just slow down in the current gear i'm in until it goes down to 1k RPM, then coast to the light in neutral with the clutch out.

[thephenom]

a) no, u're riding the clutch
b) no, u're riding the clutch, and u can't rev-match from what i gather from reading that
c) i do this at times

no shame in starting with handbrake on the steep ones... or i'm lazy and just balance the clutch

A) no, that's not riding the clutch since the clutch is IN! So at most it's wearing out throwout bearing.
B) Read A, his freaking clutch is still IN!
C) That's either a head snapping downshift or mad clutch wear smooth shift

[thephenom]

Maybe you guys can answer this.

When slowing to a stop, do you

a) clutch in and ride the brake until the car stops, then throw it in 1st
b) clutch in, ride the brake but change gears to match the speed (without clutching out)
c) clutch in, change gears, clutch out (repeat while slowing)
d) something else

Doing c) helps with brake wear but is a lot more work. The advantage is you're always ready to go.

Also, how many of you use the handbrake to help on steep hillstarts? Or, are you skilled enough to time clutch uptake or even have your right foot easing up on the brake while giving gas at the same time?

Ideally, you should be doing C with rev match, but for daily driving, you can just stay in gear and use the brakes until you slow down enough, and the pop it into neutral at like 1.5k. Don't keep the clutch in once you're in neutral, you're wearing out the throwout bearing.

[blibbertibs]

It's so hard doing rev matching downshift, how do you know what RPM the next gear will be?

[Pete_Coach]

what does this mean?

From an operational point of use perspective, it means absolutely nothing. The gas pedal will always work as it has before.
Technically, instead of a cable, the connection to the throttle will be wires and electric motors.

[Shojin]

Maybe you guys can answer this.

When slowing to a stop, do you

a) clutch in and ride the brake until the car stops, then throw it in 1st
b) clutch in, ride the brake but change gears to match the speed (without clutching out)
c) clutch in, change gears, clutch out (repeat while slowing)
d) something else

Doing c) helps with brake wear but is a lot more work. The advantage is you're always ready to go.

Also, how many of you use the handbrake to help on steep hillstarts? Or, are you skilled enough to time clutch uptake or even have your right foot easing up on the brake while giving gas at the same time?

DOH!

I switched the terms! Replace clutch in with clutch out and vice-versa!

[Shojin]

Gas pedals are not linked to the fuel pump in any car. :lol:

lol

Hopefully they know what I mean :cheesygri

[blibbertibs]

DOH!

I switched the terms! Replace clutch in with clutch out and vice-versa!

When I replace the terms, all I hear is a bunch of gear grinding.

[M-e-X-x]

A) no, that's not riding the clutch since the clutch is IN! So at most it's wearing out throwout bearing.
B) Read A, his freaking clutch is still IN!
C) That's either a head snapping downshift or mad clutch wear smooth shift

C)rev-matching, don't wanna head snap :lol:

[shrugs*]

It's so hard doing rev matching downshift, how do you know what RPM the next gear will be?

Know your shift points for the shorter gears, typically the taller gears are easier to match since there's a smaller change in ratios. E.g., in my car 40km/h is about 3,000RPM in 2nd. 5-4 & 4-3 are just short blips, 1,200-2,400RPM.

Make it part of your daily driving and it'll become second nature.

[gwu]

A) no, that's not riding the clutch since the clutch is IN! So at most it's wearing out throwout bearing.
B) Read A, his freaking clutch is still IN!
C) That's either a head snapping downshift or mad clutch wear smooth shift

A red light that is decent distance ahead,
can someone:

e) Depress the Clutch -> Shift to Neutral -> Release Clutch -> 'Glide' to a stop (while gently stepping on the brakes if going a bit too fast) ?

is that bad for the vehicle?

[Shojin]

A red light that is decent distance ahead,
can someone:

e) Depress the Clutch -> Shift to Neutral -> Release Clutch -> 'Glide' to a stop (while gently stepping on the brakes if going a bit too fast) ?

is that bad for the vehicle?

This is kinda what I do, except I don't release the clutch until I'm stopped. I think a lot of people do this. The reason I was asking for opinions was because I felt a disadvantage of doing it this way is that there is no engine brake assist.

Probably the best way is to do what thephenom said and leave it in gear until 1.5k and then pop it into neutral. That requires either watching the tach when stopping or really learning what your car feels like when the revs get that low.

[blibbertibs]

A red light that is decent distance ahead,
can someone:

e) Depress the Clutch -> Shift to Neutral -> Release Clutch -> 'Glide' to a stop (while gently stepping on the brakes if going a bit too fast) ?

is that bad for the vehicle?

i think you'll use more fuel if you coast in neutral right when you see the red, rather than coasting in a high gear.

[AzNCrAzYcOoLeR]

i think you'll use more fuel if you coast in neutral right when you see the red, rather than coasting in a high gear.


That's correct.... when in gear, the momentum keeps the engine going, while its fuel that keeps the engine going while in netural

[shrugs*]

This is kinda what I do, except I don't release the clutch until I'm stopped. I think a lot of people do this. The reason I was asking for opinions was because I felt a disadvantage of doing it this way is that there is no engine brake assist.

Probably the best way is to do what thephenom said and leave it in gear until 1.5k and then pop it into neutral. That requires either watching the tach when stopping or really learning what your car feels like when the revs get that low.

It shouldn't be too hard to figure out when to disengage the clutch when slowing down-- if you're in 2nd already, anytime before the car comes to a complete stop is fine. Car won't (shouldn't) stall if it is rolling any faster than walking speed.

[ES_Revenge]

A red light that is decent distance ahead,
can someone:

e) Depress the Clutch -> Shift to Neutral -> Release Clutch -> 'Glide' to a stop (while gently stepping on the brakes if going a bit too fast) ?

is that bad for the vehicle?
No but it's actually illegal to do that. Do it on a driver's test, it's an automatic fail ;)

[bobby5]

Rather than coasting all the way, you can engine brake till close to idling speed (~1k rpm) then neutral.