Red Light Ticket

[Da Grape]

I am due to attend court for this offense.

Couple of months ago, I was driving up (North) Don Mills approaching Finch. As I was approaching the intersection to make a right (East), I slowed down and as I approach the intersection, the light turned red. I made the right turn and as I completed the turn, i saw a flash (red light camera which I didn't notice in the beginning).

Couple of weeks after that I receive my letter stating my offense and that I have to pay $180. I decided to drive up to the area and check what signs I missed. There was just a red light sign as I approach the same intersection the same way.

I'm sure I don't know all the traffic do's and dont's but, what is the rule against turning a right on a red on a red light camera intersection? There was no sign saying you cannot make a red. As I slowed down at the intersection, there were nobody crossing or at the intersection so i continued to make the right.

Do i have any case?

Any help/advice is appreciated.

[Shaner]

You have to come to a COMPLETE stop at red lights. If you are turning right, you can proceed only once you've come to a complete stop.

I don't know what kind of signs you could possibly be looking for. There was a red light, that's more than enough.

If you don't know that simple rule of the road, then perhaps you shouldn't be driving.

[Da Grape]

Shaner,

Thanks for the reply.

I was approaching the intersection to make a right, it turned orange as i slowed down by the intersection. The light turned red as I cross the intersection making a right. I understand you stop on red but as I approach from speeds of 50+ slowing down to 25 as i reach the intersection, I personally don't think it was safe to do a complete stop and not cross the intersection.

Again, I was driving North on Don Mills, light was green. As i approach the intersection lowering my speed it turned orange, before I enter the intersection it was still orange then turned red as I start to cross.

Perhaps my initial post was not clear (probably wasn't), for this I apologize and I hope this reply explains the scenario better.

[ES_Revenge]

I'm sure I don't know all the traffic do's and dont's but
Good thing you have a license and are driving around the streets then eh? :rolleyes:

[nano]

that ticket is similar to a parking ticket if you pay it you don't lose points and your insurance rates wont be effected...

[mmmken]

This is what happened to me, and it's absolutely stupid (if you indeed made a complete stop before turning right). If it were yellow, you would be able to turn right if there was no immediate danger (provided you crossed the line when it was yellow, and not red).

The section in the HTA that your case will deal with is 144 (18), which is the red light rule. There is an exception to that section, which is 144 (19) - which is essentially a right turn is allowed. If you believe the light was yellow, try looking at 144 (15) - which deals with yellow lights.

For my case, I'm absolutely sure that I made a complete stop before the turn - with all evidence presented - and proved that the cop was lying. Regardless of my innocence and strong case, I lost my case because the judge decided to rule in the Crown's favour. I am filing for an appeal though.

Links that you'll be interested in:

HTA Section 144: http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90h08_e.htm#BK212
Tips on going to Court: http://www.magma.ca/~fyst/


I'm 19, and I decided to skip a lawyer/paralegal, and represented myself. I'm sure you'll handle well yourself - don't cave into the Crown's plea bargains if you believe you didn't do anything wrong. Any moving conviction will raise your insurance, regardless of the points received. I'll be glad to help you out.

I am due to attend court for this offense.

Couple of months ago, I was driving up (North) Don Mills approaching Finch. As I was approaching the intersection to make a right (East), I slowed down and as I approach the intersection, the light turned red. I made the right turn and as I completed the turn, i saw a flash (red light camera which I didn't notice in the beginning).

Couple of weeks after that I receive my letter stating my offense and that I have to pay $180. I decided to drive up to the area and check what signs I missed. There was just a red light sign as I approach the same intersection the same way.

I'm sure I don't know all the traffic do's and dont's but, what is the rule against turning a right on a red on a red light camera intersection? There was no sign saying you cannot make a red. As I slowed down at the intersection, there were nobody crossing or at the intersection so i continued to make the right.

Do i have any case?

Any help/advice is appreciated.

[mmmken]

that ticket is similar to a parking ticket if you pay it you don't lose points and your insurance rates wont be effected...

Didn't notice that it was a red light camera. You're absolutely correct. They have no way to determine the driver of the car - and thus will not affect your premiums. Good catch!

[Dibble]

I was approaching the intersection to make a right, it turned orange as i slowed down by the intersection. The light turned red as I cross the intersection making a right. I understand you stop on red but as I approach from speeds of 50+ slowing down to 25 as i reach the intersection, I personally don't think it was safe to do a complete stop and not cross the intersection.

The average yellow light duration is approximately 4 seconds adjusted accordingly for varying max traffic speeds -- obviously an 80km/hr max speed road will have longer yellow's than a 40km/hr road.

Either the particular traffic lights you ran a red on have illegally adjusted their yellow light duration -- i.e. shorter -- to increase municipal revenues, or you simply had a very poor sense of timing. Assuming the traffic lights are normal and the yellow light duration is not shortened, you should have had ample time to react, slow down, and safely arrive at a complete stop with some room to spare. If you couldn't, you either are not fit to drive or your car has poor breaks -- either of which is simply your fault.

Your argument for the safe complete stop won't fly for the reason I've mentioned above. The only reason why it won't be safe for you to stop is a) not enough distance to safely stop or b) there is a car very close behind you. If it's a), assuming the traffic lights are up to par and weather was clear, you have no case. If it was b), it would be a much better option to be rear-ended at 25km/hr than pass through a red -- for which, you may either harm innocent people or you may end up in an even more severe accident.

The only thing that WILL FLY, is if you actually did manage to cross the entire car over the line while the light was yellow.

[nano]

fyi..... you go through the yellow when its not safe to stop not because you have 4 seconds before its red. If you are going to make a right you should already be slowing down.

[rfdrfd]

From what I remember from learning how to drive a LONG time ago, isn't the rule you have to stop at a red light for 3 seconds before you can turn right (when allowed) ?

[Shaner]

The rule is complete stop. Many people recommend 2 seconds just to be safe, but the actual rule is a complete stop.

As for the OP, you really need to get your story straight. In your first post you stated as you approached the intersection, the light turned red and you made your turn anyway.

Then in your next post, you claim you didn't have enough time to come to a complete stop, so you ran through the yellow. That is next to impossible though, unless you took the corner at 40-50 km/hr. If you were making a right turn, you would have been slowing down well before the intersection, and you would have had more than enough time to come to a complete stop.

I personally think your story doesn't add up; however, it is your story and you're entitled to it. So at this point, you can either pay it and suffer no consequences other than a slightly lighter wallet, or fight it. If you decide to fight it, I would come up with a better story than you couldn't stop safely, even though you were turning right.

[Da Grape]

From what I remember from learning how to drive a LONG time ago, isn't the rule you have to stop at a red light for 3 seconds before you can turn right (when allowed) ?


I didn't approach on a red light, it was orange and right before i crossed the intersection to make the right, turned red on me. (I am at the intersection to cross at speeds of around 25. I wasn't approaching anymore, I was there already.)

I'm going through my recollection of what happened couple of months ago, my apologies if im not explaining it properly. As shaner pointed out, I'll need to do a better job recollecting my story and telling my case at court.

Mmmken, thanks for the reply and I'll be checking the links.

[GangStarr]

The OP doesn't seem to know what traffic laws are... nor what colours are.

Its amber/yellow not orange. You will sound like an idiot if you walk into court talking about orange lights.

OP you were cuaght on camera, and you should be thankful that you were since if an officer issued you the ticket, it would affect your insurance.

You have 2 options

1) Pay it... and move on
2) Waste the courts time with your story and you will probably get it reduced.

[thelefteyeguy]

I didn't approach on a red light, it was orange and right before i crossed the intersection to make the right, turned red on me. (I am at the intersection to cross at speeds of around 25. I wasn't approaching anymore, I was there already.)

I'm going through my recollection of what happened couple of months ago, my apologies if im not explaining it properly. As shaner pointed out, I'll need to do a better job recollecting my story and telling my case at court.

Mmmken, thanks for the reply and I'll be checking the links.

the photo will dispute otherwise. My advise is to look at the photo.

^^+1...it's amber...not orange

[kmltick]

I remember reading somewhere (or someone telling me) that the cameras activate after a certain period of time AFTER the red light has changed. i.e. 1/2-1 complete second.

[ES_Revenge]

The OP doesn't seem to know what traffic laws are... nor what colours are.
x2 OP is the type of person you hope not to meet while out on the roads (of course you meet people like this everyday nonetheless :rolleyes: ).

Sad that you can get a license, drive around, and not even know the basic rules/signals/signage of the road. Worse still, just pass it off as innocent ignorance ("I'm sure I don't know all the traffic dos and don'ts") :mad: :(

[nano]

OP is the type of person that just turns right in front of you while you have the green causing a road rage incident.

[Da Grape]

Wow, not even 24hrs and some of you think you know me already?

I was not clear with my posting, I obviously did not word or chose my words properly and for this i apologize.

Nevertheless, thanks for all the replies.

[Whitedart]

I didn't approach on a red light, it was orange and right before i crossed the intersection to make the right, turned red on me. (I am at the intersection to cross at speeds of around 25. I wasn't approaching anymore, I was there already.)

Once the light turned red for you, the sensors in the road would have activited the camera as you crossed the sensor.

What I find unusual here is that this happened with a right turn on a red. The cameras appear to be usually set up to catch people turning left or straight through on a red.
As you know, it is normally legal to make a right turn on a red, after a full stop, if traffic conditions allow the movement.

[bobby5]

Once the light turned red for you, the sensors in the road would have activited the camera as you crossed the sensor....


I think the logic is once the light is red, the cam will be triggered by anything that crosses the line at faster than say 5kph.
If you stop before the line on red, then accelerate and turn right, maybe that would trigger the cam too.

So the best bet is to do a "rolling turn" at snail's pace when red is on :lol:

[at1212b]

Chances are, the yellow light was on prior to you reaching the intersection.

Now, this is just a guess, but if it is yellow for 4 seconds, it was probably yellow for 3 seconds before the turn was made, leading you to turning on second 4, and then 5 (which by now is a red light) triggering the camera.

Furthermore, chances are, if you did this on a road test, it would have been a fail. If a cop saw you, he/she would have probably pulled you over.

The camera is probably adjusted to giving you enough time to turn as allowed when yellow (ie seconds 1 and 2), but also is programmed/timed to know when someone is actually running it (seconds 4 and 5) as there was sufficent and ample time to see the yellow and then come to a complete stop.

You were also likely going faster then is generally allowed on a turn, further indicating that a more complete stop was actually required.

Remember, the general rule is if you see the yellow, treat it as a stop signal as long as it is reasonable and safe to stop (which again is based on general physics, posted speed limit, etc, and what the red light camera is programmed to follow). The OP may feel like it was not safe to actually stop, but the engineers, physicists and other smart people probably disagree, and therefore is also why the law, stop requirements, yellow light time, turning speed, is the way it is and implemented into the law and worked against the OP here.

[robertalan]

At least I learned something from an RFD thread: that red light cameras detect illegal right turns on a red. I didn't know that before now.

[bobby5]

At least I learned something from an RFD thread: that red light cameras detect illegal right turns on a red. I didn't know that before now.

I don't think it detects illegal turns. It's more like detecting those who don't stop (or at least go below certain speed) on the line when light turns red

[evolution921]

I didn't read the entire thread, but when you receive your ticket, don't you get 2 pictures with it? One showing your car BEHIND the line and the RED light, the another showing your car IN the intersection WHILE the light is still red, after someone actually reviewed pictures before the issue the ticket. If the picture show that you entered the intersection AFTER the light turn red, I'm not sure how you are going to argue it. By saying you thought the light was amber or the fact that you thought it's ok as long as you slow down wouldn't cut it for sure.

[thesk8man]

To orignal poster: you will get color pictures in the mail. sometime they make mistakes aswell.

you will see your car.

[[H]ackerK]

I am just interested to know how long it actually takes for the ticket to arrive? Few weeks after the event?

Anyways, I found this document (http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/2003-ontario.pdf) (it is kinda outdated, but it should still pretty much valid)

If you go to Page 5 (or 17 of 111 on Acrobat reader), the next 2 pages explains how it works. And if I read it correctly, photo is only taken after the traffic light turned RED *and* a vehicle has tripped the sensors. Then 2 photo will be taken (so that the cop can tell if the car is actually moving or just stopped at the red light)

So in theory, if you run a Yellow, no photo would be taken. *UNLESS* there is another vehicle behind you (may not be the same lane) and happens to slow down and stop.

I guess then you will need to find out if you broke the law when you have entered the intersection before the light turn RED. (Think about people making LEFT turn, often they are already in the intersection when the light turn yellow or even red)

Just my 2 cents.

Added: This (http://www.toronto.ca/transportation/redlight_cameras/faq.htm) answered the question
Q What is red light running?
A A violation occurs when a motorist enters an intersection after the signal light has turned red.

[[H]ackerK]

BTW, just come across this youtube video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB5ObibtRzY&feature=related

[Baseball_Boy]

Word to the wise: Pay attention while driving, obey the rules and signs and I pretty much guarantee you won't get a ticket.