Fencing question, when neighbours refuse to pay

[dvdsung]

Hi all,

If a next door neighbour refuses to pitch in on the purchase of a fence, what can be done? I was told that theres a document which can be sent to the gov't or city, and the homeowner will be charged for it (via taxes). I was also told that this only applies to the cheap wire fences and not the wood fences, is this true?

This is in the City of Vaughan

Thanks

[3weddings]

It depends on your city/region. Check their website as to their policies. I am in Halton and they don't, it's up to you to recoup it.

That being said, you can build it on your side of the property line, and the neighbour has to allow you access to maintain the fence.

[7jaii]

Each city has its own bylaws. But think about it, you're building a fence and billing your neighbour who doesn't want it? That's not going to make friendly neighbours down the road.

You are totally allowed to put up a fence on your side of boundaries. If you need a fence then save the hassle & grief, pay it yourself for your own property.

[qster]

Or do what I did years and years back...
Built the fence on my property line so the neighbour can't touch it and wrote the words "Cheap neighbour" on their side of the fence. After a full 2 years, they finally decided put up their fence at the back of the lot (each side was already fenced), I told my cheap neighbour that they could not link or attach their fence to my fence. They weren't too happy about paying for a foundation post, but hey...that is what you get for being CHEAP in the first place.

Not having the funds at the time is one thing (can work out a payment schedule), but being CHEAP is something totally different.

Frankly...I couldn't give a rat's a$s about this whole friendly neighbour crap. If they aren't going to be friendly from the start, then you are wasting your time trying to change it.

As for recouping the costs...all you get is the price of a chain linked fench.
Either they cheap neighbour pays you now or you get a by-law officer to come and enforce the payment or deal with city hall.

[3weddings]

Frankly...I couldn't give a rat's a$s about this whole friendly neighbour crap. If they aren't going to be friendly from the start, then you are wasting your time trying to change it.

The last person that promoted this is now a banned member at RFD :cheesygri

I really think people should attempt a reasonable solution before things get nasty!

[pfbmgd]

The last person that promoted this is now a banned member at RFD :cheesygri

I really think people should attempt a reasonable solution before things get nasty!


You should try to get the person next door to pay .

Saying that they may not want to.I would put the fence on my side of the property .Paint the side facing away from you a nice pink colour .:lol:

[tlamm]

I mentined to my neighbours that I was building a fence, they did not offer to contribute and I did not ask. I picked the fence style I wanted and built it myself 1 inch off the property line.


I'm amazed at how many people expect the neighbour to pay for something they may not want. Some things are more important then money.

The old guy behind us still hands me tomatoe plants over the fence every summer, and The neighbours on either side look after our house and mow the lawn or shovel the driveway when we go on vacations.

[RenegadeX]

I'm amazed at how many people expect the neighbour to pay for something they may not want. Some things are more important then money.As others have already said in this thread, in many places it's the law that the basic cost of a fence must be split, so I'm not sure why you're still "amazed".

If a next door neighbour refuses to pitch in on the purchase of a fence, what can be done? I was told that theres a document which can be sent to the gov't or city, and the homeowner will be charged for it (via taxes). I was also told that this only applies to the cheap wire fences and not the wood fences, is this true?I remember you once saying you lived in R.H. - if you still do, then here's the document that you need to refer to: http://code.municipalworld.com/richmondhill/971.pdf

I won't bother reposting all the relevant parts of the document as you can read them there, but I will post the following section which is very important, especially if the fence has not yet been built:
971.2.2 Notice - to owner - within 14 days - work intention
.
Where owners of adjoining land are not agreed on the details of construction, repair or replacement of a division fence the owner desiring to construct, repair or replace a division fence shall serve or cause to be served upon the adjoining owner by registered mail a notice of his or her intention to do so at least fourteen days prior to commencement of any work or execution of any contract in relation to the work to be undertaken.

By-law 41-90, 19 February, 1990.

My understanding is that if notice via registered mail was not sent at least 14 days in advance of commencement of construction, then the 50-50 cost provision is moot. However, I may be wrong - it may only be that whoever had the fence built will receive a fine for not providing notice, so it'd be best to call the By-law people and confirm what the ramifications of not doing so are. Contact info available here: http://www.richmondhill.ca/subpage.asp?textonly=&subsectionid=59

If notice was given, or no notice=fine only, then this applies:971.2.7 Cost - recovery - notice requirements
.
An owner desiring to enforce the provisions of Sections 971.2.5 and 971.2.6 of this Chapter shall serve or cause to be served on the adjoining owner a notice by registered mail requiring compliance with this Chapter and if such compliance does not take place within thirty days after service of the notice, the owner serving the notice, may take appropriate proceedings under the Provincial Offences Act to recover the proportionate share of the cost of the work as set forth in Sections 971.2.5 and 971.2.6 of this Chapter from the adjoining owner... and again, the By-law people should be able to tell you how to proceed from there, if the need arises.

[tlamm]

As others have already said in this thread, in many places it's the law that the basic cost of a fence must be split, so I'm not sure why you're still "amazed".


Bylaw or not, didn't even cross my mind to try and force someone to pay for it. Just my point of view from my happy little neighbourhood..

[dvdsung]

Sorry, i'm in the city of vaughan. I personally don't have the issue but 3 ppl I know in the city are having the issue. The annoying part about this is the neighbours who don't pay, have there kids playing and screwing around in there backyards. There's no privacy at all...neighbours should be forced to put a wooden fence up...a lot of ppl have no respect for other peoples properties. I would be pissed if I had to pay for it.

[pitz]

Bleh, why would you want a fence anyways? Doesn't that just make you feel clausterphobic? Its not like you're grazing cattle back there.

[darth wolf]

Have a question as well.

My neighbour had her fence done last year. (Her house is perpendicular to mine, so her backyard backs onto part of my driveway and part of my garage.) She did not consult with me on the fence nor did she ask me to split any of the cost. The fence she choose was not one I would have wanted but since she did not ask for part of the cost I did not mind.
(we're on different streets and her house was built 4 years before mine and I did not want the fence yet to make sure there wasn't an issue with the grading.)

I'm deciding to have my fence done this year but is now having some issues what that same neighbour. Since I wanted to close off the front side of the house which is about 3 feet with a gate, she is opposed to me attaching my gate to the fence post that was installed by her last year.

I've found out that her fence is right on the property line (actually it's more on my side then it is on hers). I was going to offer to split part of the cost of the fence but since she is already so unreasonable can I just ignore her and proceed? Am I fully within my rights to attach anything on the fence since part of it is on my property line?

also in Richmond Hill.

thanks for any advice.

[Dustbunny]

Where I live, if someone puts a fence on the property line (never mind on my property) that I didn't want, they would be required to remove it. Here you can only use the property line if both property owners agree. Otherwise it has to be set back.

If your neighbour has infringed on your yard you are going to have a real problem if you ever go to sell as it will show on your survey. I wouldn't pay for property that was actually fenced off to me and not many others will either. The neighbour actually has to get an easement (which requires your permission again) to have that post on your property.

So if she's being a pain, be a pain back at her. Find out the regulations in your area and see if you can't get that fence of hers moved.

Meanwhile, people have to really watch the regulations in their area as they often aren't simple and can have various conditions attached (eg. most places say you have to set it back a certain distance if no agreement and if you are too close, you can be told to remove it). There are things in place to prevent neighbours from having to pay for butt ugly or poorly built fences and just because someone says they want a fence doesn't always mean it's a good one. There are all sorts of good reasons one person may not want the fence another is proposing and most municipalities allow for that.

[darth wolf]

Thanks, I'll have to try and navigate harder through the richmond hill website. The fence is basically on the line, just slightly over by a few cm which I don't really mind. Don't want to have to resort to threatening her to move the fence back. I just want to use the post which half of it is on my property to attach 2 hinges for the gate.
Not sure why she have to make a big stink about it but just want to get my facts straight before I try to reason with her again.

[venice_it]

I think cities should require builders to put in the fences. The whole fence thing is the cause of a lot of disputes and many people end up with either free fences or covering more than their fair share of the costs/construction. Too many people fail to budget for things like fences when they buy a home and this way it could be put on the mortgage. Whatever city policies exist, they are often more of a hassle to enforce and you generally have to hope you have reasonable neighbours.

Sorry this is just a small rant and of little use to the op.

[RenegadeX]

Sorry, i'm in the city of vaughan. I personally don't have the issue but 3 ppl I know in the city are having the issueAh. Uh..... when you say you know people "in the city" having the issue, do you mean City of Vaughan, or City of Toronto?

If it's Vaughan, then it's similar rules to Richmond Hill, ie: 50-50 on 'basic' fence cost, and 14 days advance notice via registered mail; again, check to see if failure to provide notice means 50-50 does not apply;

If it's Toronto, then they will need to refer to:
- http://www.toronto.ca/registry-services/line-fences.htm (fees, fees, fees!)
and
- "The Line Fences Act", http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90l17_e.htm

Bleh, why would you want a fence anyways? Doesn't that just make you feel clausterphobic?FYI: amazingly, some people actually value their privacy, and what's more, those same people generally wish that their obnoxious and/or nosey neighbours did the same!Have a question as well.
also in Richmond Hill.Your situation is obviously a little more complicated -- this may or may not be correct legally speaking but I would say that even though she paid for the fence, as there was no written agreement, you should have joint rights to the fence; if that is the case, if you want to alter the fence you should be in agreement with your neighbour on how to proceed. If you're not in agreement, it looks like the 14-day notice thing is still required, even if she should not be responsible for any of the costs. In fairness, and as you said, offering to pay for a portion of the existing fence might be a gesture that could resolve the issue. Again, best bet is to call the town by-law office and see what they have to say. The worst thing you can or should do is to just go ahead and build it, as you only open yourself up to an (even more) unpleasant relationship with your neighbour and possible legal ramifications.

[dvdsung]

thanks again,

RenegadeX, they're in the same city as me (Vaughan).

It the basic fence a wired fence? Are there any documentations that clearly outline what the home owner MUST pay? I was told just the wired fence which is ugly, ghetto and not private. It's unfortunate but I think the entire cost of the fence will have to be paid by my friends b/c of these cheapskates.

[Dustbunny]

I think cities should require builders to put in the fences. The whole fence thing is the cause of a lot of disputes and many people end up with either free fences or covering more than their fair share of the costs/construction. Too many people fail to budget for things like fences when they buy a home and this way it could be put on the mortgage. Whatever city policies exist, they are often more of a hassle to enforce and you generally have to hope you have reasonable neighbours.

Sorry this is just a small rant and of little use to the op.

Although that may sound reasonable, given there are people who don't like fences or don't like the style of some fences, it could be an issue for a builder. As well there is the issue of grading after a year when the lot settles and that can't be done when fences are in place.

I'm one of those people who happens to object to ugly fences (nice ones are fine). For the life of me I can't see why so many new home owners are bent on putting in a wall of boards. The cheap, easy, and ugly are probably all a builder would put in as well, and I sure wouldn't be willing to pay for one. It's like all some people can think of is cheap and easy and to someone like me they are an eyesore given all the possibilities. What seems like a free fence to someone is regarded as a value lowering piece of crap to the other so you'd be hard pressed to find that happy medium probably.

BTW you can put things like a fence or any other future improvements on a mortgage. Most people just don't think about it as they are maxing out just to get the house. Besides, builders would charge 3 times what a fence should cost so a lot of people would not be able to afford the house they want.

I don't know if there is a way to make everyone happy. Different tastes, different ideas about what being a neighbour is about, different lifestyles so how are you going to find the happy medium?

[Dustbunny]

FYI: amazingly, some people actually value their privacy, and what's more, those same people generally wish that their obnoxious and/or nosey neighbours did the same!

What privacy? Most of the new developments have two storey homes so no one has privacy. You can see in every lot around from the upper floors and often from the main floor. I just don't understand where people think this privacy is coming from. Even in my bungalow, I can see right over the nearly 7' fence into the neighbour's yard and they can see into mine too, what privacy? As far as I can see, all a tall fence provides is a division when both parties are on the ground next to it, but it's not privacy. Someone explain this to me, please because the only way I can see someone getting real privacy is by having something like trees to block the view from higher up than any fence goes or having a roof type cover.

[CSK'sMom]

Well as someone who values their privacy I will chime in. The fences were here when we moved in. Definitely not what I would have choosen (board on board) but at this point I don't have many, if any options. We're in a 2 storey semi and the neighboring house is a raised ranch. We have a pool which is what really set off my "privacy issues". We had a creep 3 doors down the street who built a raised deck. He could see over the top of all the fences while sitting on it. He used to sit there and watch our daughter and her friends in the pool. It got really creepy, I swear he was a pedo. To stop it would have meant building close to a 15 foot high fence which isn't allowed so we opted to go the landscape route. I was fortunate enough to get my hands on some bamboo culms that will grow 40-50 feet high if I let it. That fence is now completely covered and the culms are roughly 15 feet tall this year. As an added bonus because we have a sunken patio in the back corner of the yard the bamboo blocks the neighbors view from the raised ranch as well....

[Dustbunny]

So that is a good example of how to get privacy. I agree using vegetation seems to be the best way which is why I don't understand the 6' fence thing. Tall fences offer as much privacy as a 4' in most cases so it's only an illusion of privacy. It's only when you get trees or something else growing much higher that there is really privacy, it isn't the fences providing it.

[RenegadeX]

What privacy? Most of the new developments have two storey homes so no one has privacy. You can see in every lot around from the upper floors and often from the main floor. I just don't understand where people think this privacy is coming from. Even in my bungalow, I can see right over the nearly 7' fence into the neighbour's yard and they can see into mine too, what privacy? As far as I can see, all a tall fence provides is a division when both parties are on the ground next to it, but it's not privacy. Someone explain this to me, please because the only way I can see someone getting real privacy is by having something like trees to block the view from higher up than any fence goes or having a roof type cover.I had simply said "some people.. value their privacy", and it would seem from your reply that all that means to you is not being visually snooped on. But despite what might be true for you and your home, not everyone can see over a 6 or 7ft solid fence into their neighbour's yard from the main floor/from on their own non-raised patio, or not enough to be particularly bothered by it anyhow. It's totally dependent on the lie of the land, on the house positioning relative to each other, etc. Yes as you say, if you want to be a snoop or perv you can always go upstairs and look over the fence from your 2nd floor window, but I would think that generally most people with closely-situated neighbours are aware of that possibility and when it comes to nosey neighbours are primarily concerned(bothered) by everyday eye-level intrusions to their privacy.

And for that, a solid fence does the job. Planting a natural barrier might also do it, but 7 or 8ft evergreens aren't cheap, and while smaller-sized trees might be more economical than already-grown stock, they are not as instant as a fence. (I specifically said evergreens are deciduous trees obviously lose their leaves in the fall/winter and their branches tend to start up higher on the tree, meaning they don't make good barriers). In 5-10 years when your baby evergreens are grown to adequate height, you might not even live there any more! Bamboos on the other hand might grow fast, and dense, but again, they are not cheap and to line even 1 side of a boundary you would need a lot of them.

But anyhow, "privacy" is far more than what it seems you define it as. Here's some possible scenarios where privacy is afforded by a fence (either wooden slat or a see-through chain-link or wrought-iron). The kids next door have not been taught to respect property boundaries and play football, soccer, whatever on your property, trampling your flower beds and creating noise directly outside your open windows. "Kids will be kids", he says. You say "Kids with bad parents who have no respect or consideration for others will unfortunately grow up to be like their parents". Fence! :idea:
The neighbour's pet dog has not been taught to respect its owner's property boundaries and pisses and shits all over your lawn, burning the grass and leaving unpleasant mounds for you to clean up (or necessitating you chase after your neighbour to do it as he for some odd reason he seems to be blind to it). Also funnily enough, the dog never seems to 'go' on its own property.. Shooting the dog (and/or your neighbour) is illegal, and despite repeated requests to not allow his dog out unsupervised, it continues. Fence! :idea:
YOU want to keep YOUR OWN kids/pets on your property so that they have a (relatively) safe place to play, one that can be easily monitored and cleaned up (toys, pet mess, etc). Fence! :idea: With no fence, they were free to roam from the back yard around to the front, and out onto the street and beyond.
Mr. Nextdoor likes to lounge around on sunny days in his back yard belly-up and wearing nothing but speedos, and for some reason (either because he believes the spot gets the most sun or because he's an exhibitionist, or both.. or neither!) he's taken to putting his patio lounge-chair right inside his side of your property line, just a feet away from your patio table and in direct line of sight from your kitchen/living room window. You've repeatedly asked him if he could move his chair elsewhere, and he just shrugs and replies "If you don't like it, don't look", despite the fact that you never once have done it intentionally and your house guests upon arriving always seem to say, "Oh, how nasty! Does he always do that there?"! Fence! :idea:
Your neighbour doesn't cut his grass or weed his lawn as often as he ought to, and you don't appreciate their constant encroachment on your well-maintained lawn, which you would otherwise be able to take pride in. Fence! :idea:
YOU can't be bothered to put the same amount of effort into your lawn and garden as your neighbour, and his constant "suggestions" and gardening tips are getting tiring. Fence! :idea:
You would like to for once enjoy a lunch or dinner at your patio table without your annoying neighbour wandering over (/or his dog bounding over) and saying(or in the case of the dog--thinking), "Hey that looks good! Mary makes it with such-and-such--blah-blah-drone-on,drone-on" / "woof, woof, woof woof!". Fence! :idea: (even a wrought-iron or chainlink fence will do in this situation)
Kids/others use your backyard and everyone else's as a public thoroughfare, rather than using the sidewalk on the street-side of the houses. Fence! :idea:
You don't particularly want your private backyard/patio conversations heard by your neighbours and you don't particularly want to hear theirs. (solid)Fence! :idea: (Ok, it might not stop all the noise, but it should somewhat muffle regular-volume conversation)Oh yeah, OP if you think you have it bad, take a read of this! http://www.feelmypain.net

[Dustbunny]

I had simply said "some people.. value their privacy", and it would seem from your reply that all that means to you is not being visually snooped on. But despite what might be true for you and your home, not everyone can see over a 6 or 7ft solid fence into their neighbour's yard from the main floor/from on their own non-raised patio, or not enough to be particularly bothered by it anyhow. It's totally dependent on the lie of the land, on the house positioning relative to each other, etc. Yes as you say, if you want to be a snoop or perv you can always go upstairs and look over the fence from your 2nd floor window, but I would think that generally most people with closely-situated neighbours are aware of that possibility and when it comes to nosey neighbours are primarily concerned(bothered) by everyday eye-level intrusions to their privacy...

Perhaps we are confusing privacy and division here. The type of privacy you are talking about (being seen by 'pervs' or nosey people for instance) is not going to be prevented with a fence for all the reasons I mentioned. The same people who would not be bothered to look out their 2nd storey windows are the same people who you don't have to worry about without a fence or with a shorter fence. The ones who will look are not being stopped by a 6' solid fence, so my question, where's the privacy? There is no way a wood fence stops sound or weeds so that isn't even a starter point. If you don't want to be viewed, or heard, or bothered, a 6' fence isn't going to get that for you, and I bet anyone here who has such a fence can easily back up that they absolutely do know what is going on in the neighbour's yard if they want to find out and without much effort. So it's an illusion, not real privacy at all.

Meanwhile I don't see any of your points being about privacy as much as about division which can be achieved exactly to the same degree without the tall wall of boards. 4' gets you about the same as 6' in your examples. Other than exceptional circumstances kids, dogs, unsightly lawns, etc. are all kept back and in their own space with a shorter, or a wire, or lattice fence as much as a tall solid one and that isn't what I call privacy, that is safety or claiming your space. No solid wood fence is going to stop your neighbours from hearing what you are talking about or seeing what you are doing if someone wants to do that (I had a neighbour at my last place who regularly jumped up to grab the top of the fence and hung over to visit whether asked or not, so 6' is no barrier even to terminally chatty neighbours. That type of neighbour is only stopped with the same steps as with no fence, and that's by telling them what your limits are when it comes to being dropped in on.).

What does stop noise (proven) and visual intrusion is actual blocking by things like tall trees, shrubs and thicker wall structures like stone. For the average home in the average new development (vs those with large lots etc.) a fence won't achieve privacy at all, yet people keep putting them up claiming that as their reason. It make zero sense to me. You might as well put your hands over your eyes so no one can see you if you think you are actually gaining true privacy with a 6' fence. Yes, vegetation takes some time, but it works, a fence doesn't not in the short or long term so what's the point of claiming it's for privacy?

The only time I can see where you actually do get some privacy with a 6' wall of boards is when you have an alley, but the issue then becomes one of safety for your house. If you listen to the police, you don't build a wall of boards or you just opened up your yard to thieves/burglars by blocking the alley view of your yard and house to the very people who might spot and report them. Give a crook a place to hide while working, and they will come.

As for the other side of it, I've lived in 2 houses with shorter fences and can say it's a whole different experience than the 2 with tall fences. Turns out most neighbours are really decent people who it's nice to wave to or have a chat with when doing the yard or whatever. They can often be really helpful and even become friends when you give it a chance. I've had neighbours come over and help when they see me struggling with something like digging a garden or whatever and often they've even gone to get me some of their plants to help and I've returned the favour. They'll keep an eye on the place when your away, yell at kids or anyone else who doesn't belong, call the fire department or police when needed. Sometimes you even get someone who has a great garden or yard that it's a real pleasure to be able to see and guess what, their dogs don't bark when they can see who is there through the fence (and they will bark when they see someone unfamiliar in your yard so you have a good warning system). Most of all you still get to see a view or something besides walls around you. You don't feel penned in (which is easy to feel on the small lots people are getting now). You can have your neighbours as allies vs being people you may not even recognize.

With the houses I've lived in, the only time the people in the new development actually knew their neighbours was when they moved in before the fences went in. Once the boards went up, anyone new moving in didn't have the same opportunities to know their neighbours except for maybe those directly beside. That isn't true in the neighbourhoods with shorter fences I can tell you. They are automatically friendlier and have a much more community like feel. They still have their space and most still have as much 'privacy' because people know to give other people that without needing a large wall of boards in the way.

Most of all, those wall of board fences are butt ugly. There are so many options using lattice or other configurations or materials or designs that can achieve the same sort of things people want with some style and still allowing light and air to flow that it makes no sense to me to have these ugly walls erected under the guise of privacy because they sure don't work for that. When you live or drive around the really nice neighbourhoods (and I mean nice by feel and generally appearance of being a community), check out their fences. Look at the fences in the magazines that concentrate on gorgeous yards. They don't settle for walls of boards. They pay about the same but they put some effort into something esthetically pleasing that does the job fences are meant to do and that's to divide the properties and provide great space to grow trees and shrubs that do provide privacy (which often can't grow next to the light stealing wall of boards).

I don't have a problem with fences, I have a problem with people complaining that everyone should agree to have the ugly versions people are wanting up for reasons that just don't make sense and then they complain the neighbours are jerks just because they want a different type. It's especially true of people in new houses, their first, with no experience, just assuming it can only be done one way and just not getting real about what they are doing. Most people aren't jerks. Most people can be negotiated with, spoken with, come to agreement, but not when one is hell bent on having 'privacy' with an ugly fence that will never provide that.

All my message would be is to think about it. You (the general 'you') aren't getting what you think you are getting (real privacy) so stop kidding yourself. Find out what the neighbour is thinking because maybe they know what they are doing or have some valid reasons for not wanting that board fence. There are always solutions (before going to some of the ridiculous lengths some people have gone to) that will get everyone what they can live with, raise the property values, and maintain good will between neighbours. The line is 'good fences make for good neighbours', the operative word there is 'good', not large, not tall, not what only one person wants.

[josipm]

Or do what I did years and years back...
Built the fence on my property line so the neighbour can't touch it and wrote the words "Cheap neighbour" on their side of the fence. After a full 2 years, t.



Priceless....do you have a photo of it?

[vdub07]

It the basic fence a wired fence? Are there any documentations that clearly outline what the home owner MUST pay? I was told just the wired fence which is ugly, ghetto and not private. It's unfortunate but I think the entire cost of the fence will have to be paid by my friends b/c of these cheapskates.

No, it means that they must pay 1/2 of what a chain-link fence would cost (estimated) and your buddy then puts that amount towards his/her fence of choice.

[qster]

Priceless....do you have a photo of it?

No... unfortunately.
The 2 photos have been lost since I moved. If only I had a digital camera at the time.

I know the current homeowner painted over the fence and the cheap neighbour has since moved out of that neighbourhood.

[skewed]

Thanks, I'll have to try and navigate harder through the richmond hill website. The fence is basically on the line, just slightly over by a few cm which I don't really mind. Don't want to have to resort to threatening her to move the fence back. I just want to use the post which half of it is on my property to attach 2 hinges for the gate.
Not sure why she have to make a big stink about it but just want to get my facts straight before I try to reason with her again.

Your story made me laugh because her ignorance will end up kicking her right back where the sun don't shine. By the way, how did you measure you lines? Did you fence contractor do it or was it someone from the city?