Travelling between London, Paris, Zurich/Brussels, Rome/Venice?

[sahilz]

Hey folks,

I am heading out to Europe in early August with wife. So far the only thing I have confirmed/paid for are my airline tickets via Delta from Toronto-London(Gatwick) for about 10 days.

I figured I can do three maybe four cities in that time period, the fourth/fifth one being Zurich or Brussels , not sure yet. I am hoping to travel via train between these cities, as much as possible.

Would someone knowledgable in western europe travel be kind enough to let me know what trains I can catch? Do I need to reserve train tickets early, are they reserved on day/time as well, or can they be open? Also, how long would the trip between London - Paris - Zurich/Brussels - Rome/Venice take? Is that the logical way to go about these places?

We are mostly interested in places/museums even though neither of us are history buffs. Dining isn't in our top priorities as . Any suggestions for that?

So far I have:

Rome - Collesium. YAY! My life long dream.
Venice - Boat ride!
Paris - Eiffel Tower
London - A lot of things!

Yeah I have to start researching on places to go, but any pointer will be great! Thanks!

[imoo2u]

10 days for your TO to London trip... you are really squeezing this 'short' period to see all intended places .. good luck! You can do all if you get your air/rail tickets in hand by booking in advance plus accommodation(s) but mostly will be just travelling not seeing/staying long enough to enjoy much at all. Stick to London and surroundings for 3-5 days and then to Rome for a day or 2 if you wants to fulfill your dreams. After Rome, rushing back to London for your return to TO.

That's MOO (my own opinion). Don't let me stop you .. you can enjoy your holiday if all travel plans work smoothly ie tickets and schedules in hand without any further hitches. Happy holidays!! :)

[sahilz]

10 days for your TO to London trip... you are really squeezing this 'short' period to see all intended places .. good luck! You can do all if you get your air/rail tickets in hand by booking in advance plus accommodation(s) but mostly will be just travelling not seeing/staying long enough to enjoy much at all. Stick to London and surroundings for 3-5 days and then to Rome for a day or 2 if you wants to fulfill your dreams. After Rome, rushing back to London for your return to TO.

That's MOO (my own opinion). Don't let me stop you .. you can enjoy your holiday if all travel plans work smoothly ie tickets and schedules in hand without any further hitches. Happy holidays!! :)

Thanks. I am just beginning to research where I can go. London and Paris are a must, we have decided. I dont know about travel times, is it really much? How long do those speedy trains take, say from Paris to Rome?

Yeah, having dates/reservations in hand will be good for planning, but it is too far out to figure that one out yet, and I dont know how to. lol. :|

[mic2074]

definitely rushing it on a 10 day trip... you could squeeze it in if you fly into London, and start from there, and then head over to Paris, go through Zurich to Italy, and try to book a flight out from Rome or Venice so you don't have to travel back to London.

Should definitely book the train tickets ahead of time. It's always good to be prepared in an unknown city when you're on a schedule. Don't know about other times, but have travel by train from Paris to London, and if I recall correctly, it was no more than a few hours.

When I was there last year, I was in London for a few days by ourselves (really enjoyed it), and then joined up with the tour. In my opinion, I would never do a tour again - all rush rush, no time to really enjoy your time there. If you planned on seeing all these places on 10 days, it would feel much like a tour too. I suggest you reconsider just doing fewer places. Perhaps do Italy and Switzerland (awesome country by the way) this time around... and do a one week trip later on for London and Paris - as it's fairly cheap to fly to London, and Paris is so close by.

[Medici]

taking a "speedy train" from Paris to Rome takes a lot long than you think. First off, the high speed line doesn't run that distance. Second, it's far cheaper and faster to fly. check ryanair and easy jet.

normal train takes 4 hours from london to paris. high speed is very expensive even on a short leg like this one.

10 days waaay too little time to do all of this.

[GangStarr]

oebb.at or bahn.de for train schedules. On a tight schedule night trains will be your best friends.

As far as train reservations go, theres a pretty detailed summary in the following thread

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=562128&highlight=couchette

have fun and I would skip brussles. If your going to go to Switzerland I recommend Interlaken if you like extreme sports or Luzern if you like beautiful mountains. Your itinerary is all over the place, all it takes is for 1 train to be full or 1 flight to be canceled for you to be stuck and miss your flight home. Take a look at a european map and try and plan some countries that are closer. Denmark and Holland are both very nice places. If your flying into London you have the luxury of the most flights and at some of europes lowest prices.

Search my backpackers FAQ thread. Theres some good info in there about european travel.

Use skyscanner.net to find cheap flights within Europe.

Oh yeah if you think you can just beat jet lag by adjusting your watch and sleeping accordingly, haha your body will prove otherwise. Keep in mind, if your doing the typical tourist thing in Europe, you end up walking around and being on your feet 8 hours a day. Its not torture, but trust me it catches up to you.

[Pete_Coach]

Traveling by train is great in Europe but one thing many folks forget is that a travel day, is almost a wasted day. In your case, 10 days minus 4 cities equals 6 days or 1 1/2 days in each place. Packing, to and from the train station and then the travel itself. I believe longer distances (London to Rome or, Paris to Rome or London to Venice) should be done by aircraft.
Also, don't underestimate the time it takes to get around and see many of the museums and galleries and sights in Europe. The British museum is a day trip. Tower of London is at least half a day, so is Windsor Castle. The Louvre and Versailles are a day each and Rome, Venice and Florence are not to be zoomed through either. See less and spend time at places that interest you most.
Either that or take a guided bus tour that manages the time for you. This is not meant to insult, I just am saying that the guided bus tours cover highlights quickly and you are obligated to move at their pace. For a first time visit to Europe, this may be a viable option.
I suggest, fly to London, see the town, fly to Venice, see the town and then take a train to Rome (4 1/2 hrs) and see the town and then fly home. Do Paris, Zürich and Brussels on the next trip.

[xgamma]

I just got back from an Italy/Croatia trip, and I'd say your plan to see all those cities are a little optimistic. Sure, you'd be able to SEE all the cities, but there's a fine difference between seeing it, and truly appreciating it and absorbing the local culture. I had 2 days in Rome, 2 and a half in Florence, 3 in Venice, and the rest of my time was spent in Croatia. I still felt a little rushed throughout the Italy leg of my trip.

Hell, you could see all of the big Rome attractions in a day since they're all within close walking distance, but I'd advise you to take your time and really enjoy it if you're gonna fly half way across the world. There's something to see around every corner in Rome.

If you're interested in Museums and the such, in Venice you can go to the Doge's Palace in St. Mark's Square, and they sell a museum pass that lets you into the Palace and a few other museums. I believe it was 23 Euros for students.

For Italian trains: http://www.trenitalia.it/en/index.html

Rail travel is fairly cheap, and trains run frequently.

[sahilz]

Thank you for all the opinions, Pete_Coach, GangStarr, Medici and mic.

To answer the question about flying to london and then flying back from another city, I jumped on a delta airline flight deal to and from Toronto to London Gatwick couple months ago. Coming back from a different city is not possible, I don't think.

So, I mapped it out my desitionations out, and yeah, I would be all over the place in a too short of time.

I am there from Aug 9 to Aug 20. I have cut out Zurich/Brussels, and yeah my main time concentration would be in London and Rome/venice. Paris is not that important but still would like to see the big tower atleast.


Aug 9 - Sat morning - Arrive in London

Aug 9/10/11 - Sightseeing in London

Aug 12 - Tue - Fly London to Rome

Aug 12/13 - Sightseeing in Rome

Aug 14 - Thu - Train to Venice

Aug 14/15 - Sightseeing in Venice

Aug 16 - Sat - Fly from Venice to Paris

Aug 16/17 - Sightseeing in Paris

Aug 18 - Mon - Train to London

Aug 18/19 - Catch up in London

Aug 20 - Wed morning - Fly back


Still packed, but maybe workable without feeling rushed? And , I would rather mismanage my time, than take a tour. Just dont like to be bound to a tour timing/group.

Thanks!

[GangStarr]

Traveling by train is great in Europe but one thing many folks forget is that a travel day, is almost a wasted day. In your case, 10 days minus 4 cities equals 6 days or 1 1/2 days in each place. Packing, to and from the train station and then the travel itself. I believe longer distances (London to Rome or, Paris to Rome or London to Venice) should be done by aircraft.
Also, don't underestimate the time it takes to get around and see many of the museums and galleries and sights in Europe. The British museum is a day trip. Tower of London is at least half a day, so is Windsor Castle. The Louvre and Versailles are a day each and Rome, Venice and Florence are not to be zoomed through either. See less and spend time at places that interest you most.
Either that or take a guided bus tour that manages the time for you. This is not meant to insult, I just am saying that the guided bus tours cover highlights quickly and you are obligated to move at their pace. For a first time visit to Europe, this may be a viable option.
I suggest, fly to London, see the town, fly to Venice, see the town and then take a train to Rome (4 1/2 hrs) and see the town and then fly home. Do Paris, Zürich and Brussels on the next trip.

I heard there really isn't much to do in Venice. The boat rides are incredibly overpriced, I beleive they are in the 100 euro range.

Also most people say it kind of smells, hotels are expensive, and its mostly just glass blowing shops. I havn't been myself but the consenus I got from other travellers is that its not wroth spending the night there. Same goes with Pisa, see the tower and leave.

Personally I don't think the British Museum will occupy a whole day. Perhaps I didn't scratch my beard or apprecaite it enough but I was done that in a few hours. Its tough to generalize, but I agree that seeing London and italy would probably be the best choice.

[rilhouse]

Aug 9 - Sat morning - Arrive in London

Aug 9/10/11 - Sightseeing in London

Aug 12 - Tue - Fly London to Rome

Aug 12/13 - Sightseeing in Rome

Aug 14 - Thu - Train to Venice

Aug 14/15 - Sightseeing in Venice

Aug 16 - Sat - Fly from Venice to Paris

Aug 16/17 - Sightseeing in Paris

Aug 18 - Mon - Train to London

Aug 18/19 - Catch up in London

Aug 20 - Wed morning - Fly back


i think your spending too much time in london (9,10,11,18,19). i think you could shave 1-2 days off which would be better spent elsewhere. personally, i would add those days to paris. personally i would recommend skipping venice.

EDIT: you could fly from rome to barcelona instead (highly recommended) then take a night train from barcelona (8pm-8am) to paris. as long as you can sleep on a train, it also saves 1 nights hotel cost.

i second skyscanner.net, i used that for all my flights in europe. book early, as prices go up drastically the closer you get to the departure date. as for the eurostar train from paris-london, book early as well and play around with one-way/return tickets. you can sometimes get return tickets for less then the price of a one-way fair.

[sahilz]

I heard there really isn't much to do in Venice. The boat rides are incredibly overpriced, I beleive they are in the 100 euro range.

Also most people say it kind of smells, hotels are expensive, and its mostly just glass blowing shops. I havn't been myself but the consenus I got from other travellers is that its not wroth spending the night there. Same goes with Pisa, see the tower and leave.

Personally I don't think the British Museum will occupy a whole day. Perhaps I didn't scratch my beard or apprecaite it enough but I was done that in a few hours. Its tough to generalize, but I agree that seeing London and italy would probably be the best choice.

LOL @ Scratching the beard. :lol:

Rilhouse, I can't believe the trips from London to Rome are like 10 Euros??! Skyscanner says so.

[rilhouse]

LOL @ Scratching the beard. :lol:

Rilhouse, I can't believe the trips from London to Rome are like 10 Euros??! Skyscanner says so.

yah but plus taxes (can add up). i've seen 1 euro fairs for many inter-euro flights if booked early enough.

[GangStarr]

yah but plus taxes (can add up). i've seen 1 euro fairs for many inter-euro flights if booked early enough.

Skyscanner includes all taxes. Might be a fee for carrying checked luggage but when I was there at least 1 bag was included.

Also watch the times of your departure, make sure you can get to the airport using public transit otherwise a taxi will spoil the savings. A 5 or 6 am flight is just a pain to catch unless your very close to the airport.

Keep in mind, Italy will be a bargain compared to the UK or France. With that, Italian (and French) trains are notorious for striking. Keep that in mind. Trains can be cancelled due to strikes and theres really not much warning or much you can do besides race to the next hostel to get acomodations.

btw if your a gelato fan, to eat the best gelato you need to look for Bananna gelato. If its white, its made with real ingredients. If its yellow its not. You know... because a bananna is only yellow on the outside. This tip got me SUCH good gelato.

Have fun on your trip, and congrats on not going on the bus tour. You made GangStarr proud!

[matdwyer]

i think your spending too much time in london (9,10,11,18,19). i think you could shave 1-2 days off which would be better spent elsewhere. personally, i would add those days to paris. personally i would recommend skipping venice.

EDIT: you could fly from rome to barcelona instead (highly recommended) then take a night train from barcelona (8pm-8am) to paris. as long as you can sleep on a train, it also saves 1 nights hotel cost.

i second skyscanner.net, i used that for all my flights in europe. book early, as prices go up drastically the closer you get to the departure date. as for the eurostar train from paris-london, book early as well and play around with one-way/return tickets. you can sometimes get return tickets for less then the price of a one-way fair.

I was messing around with the eurostar prices a while ago and found this to be very true... $60 for a ticket booked in advance and 360 for one booked the day of.... just brutal

[b166er1337]

Keep in mind, Italy will be a bargain compared to the UK or France. With that, Italian (and French) trains are notorious for striking. Keep that in mind. Trains can be cancelled due to strikes and theres really not much warning or much you can do besides race to the next hostel to get acomodations.

!

er, even without strikes or mechanical problems, my eurostar train from Florence to Venice took a whopping 5 hours, instead of 3 hours as scheduled :(

[GangStarr]

er, even without strikes or mechanical problems, my eurostar train from Florence to Venice took a whopping 5 hours, instead of 3 hours as scheduled :(

Yeah my train from Rome to Innsbruk was delayed 2 hours in Verona Beach.

[Pete_Coach]

I heard there really isn't much to do in Venice. The boat rides are incredibly overpriced, I beleive they are in the 100 euro range.

Also most people say it kind of smells, hotels are expensive, and its mostly just glass blowing shops. I havn't been myself but the consenus I got from other travellers is that its not wroth spending the night there. Same goes with Pisa, see the tower and leave.

Personally I don't think the British Museum will occupy a whole day. Perhaps I didn't scratch my beard or apprecaite it enough but I was done that in a few hours. Its tough to generalize, but I agree that seeing London and italy would probably be the best choice.
I cannot believe that you saw the entire British museum (all 13 acres, half a million square feet and 13 million exhibits) in a few hours,. maybe took a wrong turn at the main building and missed the big part ;)
As for hotels in Venice, well, if I had to I would stay in Mestre, just on the mainland side of Venice and a 10 minute, 2 Euro train ride in the morning. Hotels are 1/2 the price. I stayed at the Hotel Bologna in Mestre on one trip.
Yes, Gondola rides are about 80 euros but, where else in the world (with respect to the poor imitation in Las Vegas) will you get to do that? It does not stink, it is not just glass blowers (as a matter of fact, there is no glass blowing in Venice, (they were outlawed several hundred years ago). Venice is one of the wonders of the world and is worth every penny. I believe that consensus would say that Venice is one of the places in the world to visit.

[sahilz]

I cannot believe that you saw the entire British museum (all 13 acres, half a million square feet and 13 million exhibits) in a few hours,. maybe took a wrong turn at the main building and missed the big part ;)
As for hotels in Venice, well, if I had to I would stay in Mestre, just on the mainland side of Venice and a 10 minute, 2 Euro train ride in the morning. Hotels are 1/2 the price. I stayed at the Hotel Bologna in Mestre on one trip.
Yes, Gondola rides are about 80 euros but, where else in the world (with respect to the poor imitation in Las Vegas) will you get to do that? It does not stink, it is not just glass blowers (as a matter of fact, there is no glass blowing in Venice, (they were outlawed several hundred years ago). Venice is one of the wonders of the world and is worth every penny. I believe that consensus would say that Venice is one of the places in the world to visit.


Thank you for the information Pete_Coach and GangStarr. This is valuable information!!

A question about train tickets, Lets say I buy a ticket from Rome to Venice and another from Paris to London right now, and then once I get to Rome, I decided to stay a day later or leave early, would it be a problem to change the timings? Same question for hotel stay. WOuld I be correct to assume that staying a day more would be easier than a day later? Is it advisable to book now, rather than walk in a hotel and ask for a room?

[Pete_Coach]

Sometimes the train tickets are changeable. You need to see what restrictions are imposed on your specific ticket. It depends where you buy it (online, from a re-seller or agent or the company itself). I would not be too hard over to buy the tickets way in advance. There are so many trains that you can buy it a day or two in advance and still get seats.
Now, the hotel is a different issue. Some hotels let you change without penalty but in my experience, most in Europe require advance notice and way more than one day, especially the hotels in smaller cities and towns. The big chains (Best Western notwithstanding) will allow changes 24 hrs in advance. Oh, and book now, the summer is very busy and hotels are booked in the popular places. As a matter of fact, you may find the more modestly priced hotels are already booked and you may end up paying a bit more than you though. Go to www.tripadvisor.com and check out the hotels and reviews on this site. Also check the forums for the places you want to go and stay. They have some local folks from those places online all the time.

[GangStarr]

I cannot believe that you saw the entire British museum (all 13 acres, half a million square feet and 13 million exhibits) in a few hours,. maybe took a wrong turn at the main building and missed the big part ;)
As for hotels in Venice, well, if I had to I would stay in Mestre, just on the mainland side of Venice and a 10 minute, 2 Euro train ride in the morning. Hotels are 1/2 the price. I stayed at the Hotel Bologna in Mestre on one trip.
Yes, Gondola rides are about 80 euros but, where else in the world (with respect to the poor imitation in Las Vegas) will you get to do that? It does not stink, it is not just glass blowers (as a matter of fact, there is no glass blowing in Venice, (they were outlawed several hundred years ago). Venice is one of the wonders of the world and is worth every penny. I believe that consensus would say that Venice is one of the places in the world to visit.

What can I say to that??? Perhaps I didn't take in enough of the museum. Good advice regardless Pete.

[jjj3663]

Thank you for the information Pete_Coach and GangStarr. This is valuable information!!

A question about train tickets, Lets say I buy a ticket from Rome to Venice and another from Paris to London right now, and then once I get to Rome, I decided to stay a day later or leave early, would it be a problem to change the timings? Same question for hotel stay. WOuld I be correct to assume that staying a day more would be easier than a day later? Is it advisable to book now, rather than walk in a hotel and ask for a room?

Some times, train tickets are changeable, by that I mean if you're changing to another train at a different departure time but with the same price, yes, you can do so at the counter. If not, you might be able to make up the difference in price. But it all really comes down to the restriction on your tickets, and the reason.

For trains in Italy, you are able to buy them online at http://www.trenitalia.it/en/index.html and print them out at the station. It's really easy.

When in Rome, if you need help with your tickets, considering that you're traveling between 8am - let say 3pm, there're station attendants wearing lime green at the station to help carrying stacks of schedules, and the counters are open with some employee speaking very very very limited English, to some very fluent.

But Rome<---> Venice trains run very often, I believe every 1-2 hours. But just remember there're a couple of train stations in Rome, so don't get mixed up. But for Rome to Venice, you'll probably be at Rome Termini.

And check out www.eurostar.com for Paris ---> Central London.

I would advise to buy train tickets before boarding, but as for hotels, it's almost a must be be booking in advance. But it will be easier to stay one more day than a day later. Most hotels do have a refund policy, but it's usually 24 hrs beforehand, or else they'll charge the first day. Do check with the hotels you are making reservations with.

[Pete_Coach]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this but when taking a train in Italy, you must get your ticket time stamped before you get on the train. There are machines at the entrance to all platforms whee you insert the ticket and it validates them.
The Conductor on the train does not care that this is your first time on the train and neither does he care that you are a tourist, you will be fined about 75 Euros if your ticket ain't validated.

[sillysimms]

I heard there really isn't much to do in Venice. The boat rides are incredibly overpriced, I beleive they are in the 100 euro range.

Also most people say it kind of smells, hotels are expensive, and its mostly just glass blowing shops. I havn't been myself but the consenus I got from other travellers is that its not wroth spending the night there. Same goes with Pisa, see the tower and leave.

Everyone has their own opinions of places, but let me say that my husband and I went to Italy last year (Venice, Florence and Rome) and out of the 3, Venice is the only one we plan to visit again. It, to us, is the most beautiful city in the world. Don't miss it and there is nowhere else like it.

Tips for Venice:

When you get there, buy a pass for the Vaporetto (water bus). We bought a 72 hour pass, but you can get it for the period of time you think you may need - be sure to validate it when you take your first ride. This is their public transportation with stops all along.

You can then ride the Vaporetta all day, jumping on and off at whatever stops you want. When you first get there, take the #1 Vaporetta route - it goes from one end of the canal to the other. (Be sure to confirm the route number as it may have changed since we were there, but it was the #1 last year) You can see all the sights from the boat and decide what you want to do later on. Wait around at the back where there are a few outside seats on the back deck. When someone leaves, grab a seat quickly, enjoy the great view and take lots of pictures.

We took a gondola ride and for me, it was worth it. You can negotiate but it will cost you about 80 Euros for 30 - 40 minutes. It will be about 40 Euros more if you want to go at night (under moonlight) and 40 Euros more if you want a musician to serenade you on the gondola. We went during the day without the musician.

If it is out of your price range - for a cheaper version, try the "traghetta". This is "gondola-like" and will take you across the canal from one side to another for only 1.50 Euro. It's a bargain. Although not the same as a gondola ride, it's a cheap alternative.

Also, my husband speaks some Italian, but throughout Italy, we found that everyone we met in the tourist areas spoke fluent English. In Venice, most spoke English as well as several other languages.

[sahilz]

Hey folks,

So I ended up going to London, Rome, Venice and Paris!

The trip was great, Rome was the best city for sightseeing, and Venice the best for its beauty!

Delta messed up my connection to London and I had to stay a night in Cincinnati, but in the bigger picture, it didn't dampen anything, as it cut out a day I was planning to visit a relative. :D

Paris' bike rental system VELIB is AMAZING!! Me and wife rode bike all over the city and even late nights to get from one spot to another and it was such a thrill. Hopefully TO implements something like that for the general public.

Sillysimms, the gondola ride cost 100 euros for us, as we asked them to take us in the grand canal. However there were 80 euro rides as well that would stay in the little alleys. Perhaps the cost went up. Took it from the Gondola stations stop on the opposite of Acedemia, towards St. Marks.

I have never tasted anything like the Pizza in Rome. WOW!

Overall, enjoyed it well, and thank you to EVERYONE for their advices and suggestions!

[Pete_Coach]

Hey folks,

So I ended up going to London, Rome, Venice and Paris!

The trip was great, Rome was the best city for sightseeing, and Venice the best for its beauty!

Delta messed up my connection to London and I had to stay a night in Cincinnati, but in the bigger picture, it didn't dampen anything, as it cut out a day I was planning to visit a relative. :D

Paris' bike rental system VELIB is AMAZING!! Me and wife rode bike all over the city and even late nights to get from one spot to another and it was such a thrill. Hopefully TO implements something like that for the general public.

Sillysimms, the gondola ride cost 100 euros for us, as we asked them to take us in the grand canal. However there were 80 euro rides as well that would stay in the little alleys. Perhaps the cost went up. Took it from the Gondola stations stop on the opposite of Acedemia, towards St. Marks.

I have never tasted anything like the Pizza in Rome. WOW!

Overall, enjoyed it well, and thank you to EVERYONE for their advices and suggestions!
Glad you had a great time.
The pizza, you are now ruined for life. There will never be pizza like this again unless you are in Italy. Folks just don't know unless they have been there. The hunt will be on now for you to find something close here at home :)