Is it terribly wrong to lightly hit a pet who does it's business in the house?

[Setz]

How do you guys get your dogs to go to the bathroom outside? We have a wonderful large backyard, but they only decide to go on the carpets. : (

I've heard that putting a dog's face or nose into their urine will make them not want to do it indoors anymore, or a soft smack to their bottom.

I don't endorse this kind of treatment, but we're looking for ideas to train our new dog (3 months old) and our older dog (7 years old, but we just got her about 6 months ago). The older one went outside until we got the younger dog, then it stopped going outside.

Any advice? Older is a maltese/shih-tzu mix and the younger is a terrier mix.

[UrbanPoet]

how about crate training?

[rfdrfd]

It all depends on how you feel about it. Just like smacking a kid that misbehaves. Thousands in other countries do it, thousands in others that don't do it.

My family used to have a puppy, and we did it. After a few times, I just have to raise my hand in the position to hit, he knew it right away, and stopped whatever he was doing wrong. I didn't even have to touch him.

So, to me, that was okay. Smacked his bum in the beginning to make him realize what that would feel like, then never had to do it again.

[gordholio]

Roll up a newspaper and give it a decent swat in the behind. Not too hard, but enough that it will know it's done something wrong.

Some people use a little spray of water to train their pets. This might be a good solution.

[Kreez]

Unless you punish a dog right when its doing its business indoors, you aren't training it anything except to fear you.

Even 2-3 minutes later is too late.

[UrbanPoet]

Unless you punish a dog right when its doing its business indoors, you aren't training it anything except to fear you.

Even 2-3 minutes later is too late.

When i think about it.... The fear might be kind of natural.
Dont packs of wolves intimidate each other by growling & fighting to show whos the alpha male?

[IronMac]

I've heard that putting a dog's face or nose into their urine will make them not want to do it indoors anymore

Whoever told you that is an idiot.

[rosebud]

If you catch the dog doing it indoors just yell at it. It'll understand.

No physical violence needed.

[Spidey]

nope. do it

[Alvito]

If you catch the dog doing it indoors just yell at it. It'll understand.

No physical violence needed.

Yes, I find that if i voice my displeasure to my cat she gets the idea.

Use tone and volume.

[rosebud]

Yes, I find that if i voice my displeasure to my cat she gets the idea.

Use tone and volume.

Military style. It works.

[Little Dragon]

smack that b* up. just as long as its in the middle of doing it so it'll understand.

[Bazooka Joe]

The only advice I'm going to give you is not to ask for advice here on this subject. It seems a number of people are either not pet owners or poor pet owners.

I lied, I'll give another piece of advice, either do a google search or go see a professional trainer.

[milhaus]

nope. do it

I wouldn't take advice from someone who has to post and ask questions about every minute detail of his life on RFD.

Positive reinforcement works much much better than negative reinforcement: just google housetraining and you'll get much better advice than what you're getting now. Seriously, my four month old puppy knows where to do it already, and we live in a condo where we need to walk 50 feet to an elevator. Sure, we had a few accidents, but crate training works wonders.

[Setz]

Alright, I'll take some advice. Didn't know what crate training was until now.

Here's the culprit.

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6502/picture014vw8.jpg

[jeffyjaixx]

Smack its bottom lightly right when s/he is doing the business and bring his/her face close to the urine and say no strongly. That's what my relatives do.

[Dustbunny]

It seems a number of people are either not pet owners or poor pet owners.


No kidding.

DO NOT EVER HIT YOUR DOG OR RUB IT'S NOSE IN IT OR ANY OTHER JUNK YOU ARE HEARING!!!! I dont' care what anyone did in the past or what belief system you have, it's been proven over and over and over again to be the wrong thing to do especially when it comes to having a dog learn anything. This is infuriating to see people suggesting such things and I suspect many are either completely inexperienced or borderline abusers. There is so much info at your very fingertips, you don't have any excuse.

What are you doing with a new dog when you haven't got the basics in the form of a book or site or trainer to help you train it? You can't wing this stuff, you have to know what you are doing or you are going to end up with a mess in the form of either crap all over your house or a fearful dog. Fearful dogs are the ones who bite in case you haven't been told that. As soon as you hit a dog you break trust and then you have even bigger problems going on with any other training you want to do.

Meanwhile, on the constructive side, go to http://www.sutree.com/videos/Pets_and_Animals/197 and start going through the hundreds of videos there and watch all the ones to do with puppy training, having a puppy, what pack mentality is, etc. and so on until you have some idea of what you are doing.

Most of all, be patient. Puppies have zero idea of what you want if you don't show them and that takes time. Do not take your eyes off it and when you see it needs to go, get it outside and praise and reward it. If it's going in the house (and especially if you have another one starting to go), it's on you to pay attention. No hitting, no negative energy, no yelling or anything else that will cause it to associate fear or pain with needing to go. Also please enroll in a puppy class. They can help guide you through all the issues you will run into and show you what you are or aren't doing to get the results you want. Puppy classes are probably the best money spent when it comes to having a dog so please, right away, find a good one that doesn't deal with choke collars or any other methods other than positive reinforcement. They normally start pups at 12 weeks so now is the time.

Also, go to the pet store and buy Nature's Miracle. It's a really good enzyme cleaner for accidents and will take all traces away. Soap and water will not work and the residue left behind will just attract both dogs to go there again.

[rosebud]

Alright, I'll take some advice. Didn't know what crate training was until now.

Here's the culprit.

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6502/picture014vw8.jpg

I acquit the little beast. You are to blame. :)

j/k.

[Mattones]

I own two Dobermans and a 3 month old Great Dane.

When the Dobes were smaller they got the slap on the butt or the news paper to the butt or hip. I find nothing wrong with it.

[sixer]

it's ok

[firetrainer]

good luck with the shih-tzu . My sis has one and I swear they got to be one of the stupidest dog breeds. Cant learn commands for ****. I also kick it when my sis aint looking.

[nsr250]

good luck with the shih-tzu . My sis has one and I swear they got to be one of the stupidest dog breeds. Cant learn commands for ****. I also kick it when my sis aint looking.

jerk :evil:

[rosebud]

good luck with the shih-tzu . My sis has one and I swear they got to be one of the stupidest dog breeds. Cant learn commands for ****. I also kick it when my sis aint looking.

lol

[rosebud]

the chosen one:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Brazilian_terrier.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Terrier

[JAGpilot]

nvm, misread the question of this topic

[toalan]

tit for tat, if the dog takes a dump in the house then you can take a dump on the dog.

I do not know how people can hit a dog, they are too cute.

[Ma_Jie]

My dog never was spanked; she got the message after just raising a newspaper once or twice.

Also, just thought I'd point out, perhaps pointlessly, that shih tzu is not pronounced ***** zoo; it's Shizi (almost like Shr dzuh), the Chinese word for lion. It always bugs me when people can't even attempt to say it right.

- Jie

[hardcandy1911]

Dogs arent humans. You think circus animals are disciplined by giving them treats?

I have a dog, it had its fair use of spankings (not abuse), and it learned quickly.

The meat and chicken we eat come from animals who are not spanked, but rather slaughtered without any thought of kindness, only money, but your rantng about how its bad to hit a dog?

I'll kick the dog if I have to, but fortunately for me I never had to with mine.

[7Stryder7]

slap his/her ass and firmly tell them "NO"
you have to make them understand that you're the master or else they won't listen to you.

btw, ur dog is cute :D

[purple_rabbit]

good luck with the shih-tzu . My sis has one and I swear they got to be one of the stupidest dog breeds. Cant learn commands for ****. I also kick it when my sis aint looking.

haha lol

[Dustbunny]

Dogs arent humans. You think circus animals are disciplined by giving them treats?

Sorry, what a crock of crap. Dogs are living beings invited into our homes under our care and deserve to be treated humanely. Circus animals and other trained animals are not beaten unless it's by a complete and utter idiot. Just because you see it on TV or whatever doesn't mean it is the right way to train or acceptable. Why don't you actually look up the ways responsible trainers train animals including those in circuses etc. before making such a hair brained assumption.

I have a dog, it had its fair use of spankings (not abuse), and it learned quickly.

It is abuse, absolutely and it's not necessary. You will never see a mother animal hurt it's young with anything close to slapping. They hold, guide, nudge, carry, but they never bite, or in any way physically harm their young and neither should you. To say it learned quickly is not different than the justification or beating children and you know what the response to that would be.

What next? Defending that jerk in Windsor who believed breaking the dog's legs and beating it nearly to death to 'train it' was okay? This is the same thing, if you have to resort to those type of tactics, you shouldn't own a pet.

The meat and chicken we eat come from animals who are not spanked, but rather slaughtered without any thought of kindness, only money, but your rantng about how its bad to hit a dog? And they are not pets anyone is trying to train to be a companion or to live in their homes. What this has to do with dog training is beyond my imagination.

I'll kick the dog if I have to, but fortunately for me I never had to with mine.

Fortunately for you? I'd say fortunately for your dog. That's a real responsible example I must say. To even think of kicking something that could easily be injured internally (since chances are it's no where close to your body weight or size for even starters) shows you don't know what you are doing. Pure and simple, bully behaviour resorted to when too ignorant to do it properly and you shouldn't have a dog.

For any of you who think hitting, kicking, slapping or any other such behaviour is acceptable, do all dogs a favour, and don't have one until you know what you are doing. They deserve better and are smart enough to learn without being physically injured. No excuses, no 'other people do it', if you resort to physically assaulting a pet, you shouldn't have one.

[laptop-tech]

good luck with the shih-tzu . My sis has one and I swear they got to be one of the stupidest dog breeds. Cant learn commands for ****. I also kick it when my sis aint looking.

I have a Shih-tzu and he does everything outside only, no matter what. He will scratch the door and wake us up in the middle of the night if he needs to go. We always walk him twice daily and he does his stuff outside only.

Also, he learned a few tricks with just a few attempts, like "rollover", "sit", "get up", "lie down", etc.

Owning a dog comes with a LOT of responsibilities and requires a lot of passion. Theres no need to beat the dog, he can learn it properly like millions of other dogs have done in the past.

[felixdd]

It is abuse, absolutely and it's not necessary. You will never see a mother animal hurt it's young with anything close to slapping. They hold, guide, nudge, carry, but they never bite, or in any way physically harm their young and neither should you. To say it learned quickly is not different than the justification or beating children and you know what the response to that would be.

What next? Defending that jerk in Windsor who believed breaking the dog's legs and beating it nearly to death to 'train it' was okay? This is the same thing, if you have to resort to those type of tactics, you shouldn't own a pet.

And they are not pets anyone is trying to train to be a companion or to live in their homes. What this has to do with dog training is beyond my imagination.



That's a real responsible example I must say. To even think of kicking something that could easily be injured internally (since chances are it's no where close to your body weight or size for even starters) shows you don't know what you are doing. Pure and simple, bully behaviour resorted to when too ignorant to do it properly and you shouldn't have a dog.

For any of you who think hitting, kicking, slapping or any other such behaviour is acceptable, do all dogs a favour, and don't have one until you know what you are doing. They deserve better and are smart enough to learn without being physically injured. No excuses, no 'other people do it', if you resort to physically assaulting a pet, you shouldn't have one.

Whoa whoa whoa...taking it too far there. I think we can all agree that "kicking" is qualitatively different than "lightly hit" a pet.

Just to take your logic of thinking how canines work "in nature" -- yes, it is true that a mother never hits its young. But as a pet owner, your position (in the eyes of your pet) is not its mother, but rather its pack leader. And dominance in nature is asserted through fights and violence.

Not to say that I condone violence, or harming of an animal. I do believe that in some situations, a light slap on the thigh, coupled with a threatening body language and a loud voice, does drive the point home and increase the salience of the lesson you wish to give. No more than that though -- the purpose of spanking is not to induce pain, but rather to make the lesson more memorable in a fundamental way.

But to answer the OP's question, it is wrong to hit a pet who does its business in the house. Not because hitting is wrong, but because it's the wrong way to go about house-training an animal. I'm assuming that you're hitting the animal after you find the "gift" it left for you. Unless you catch it doing its business at the exact moment, delayed punished does not work with animals, from a conditioning standpoint. And animal training is basically a conditioning exercise.

You might say, "well my pet looks completely sullen and guilty after he sees me discover his mess, so he must know that he did something wrong." The way I see it, it's conditioned to be afraid of you from seeing your reaction after you find its mess. The "guilt" is more from seeing your reaction, and not the guilt of "doing something wrong". Heck, a way out of that would be to find a better place to hide its "present" so that you'll never find it, and hence never be angry ;)

EDIT: Dustbunny, I see why you mentioned "kicking" now...because hardcandy did so as well. I find it equally abhorrent that s/he finds that an acceptable form of discipline for the dog. That's just wrong on so many levels. Aside from the obvious ethicality of it, inflicting pain only induces fear in the animal, there's no value in terms of training and conditioning.

And yes, some circuses abuse their animals. But really, circuses aren't the best example of quality care for its animals, or even its employees.

[rb]

Whenever our dog decided to try and do it indoors we would sternly say NO - naughty Boy and take it out side and when it did its business outside we would pat it and say good boy. after a while it learnt. It needs patience though

[teknoluv]

For any of you who think hitting, kicking, slapping or any other such behaviour is acceptable, do all dogs a favour, and don't have one

But as a pet owner, your position (in the eyes of your pet) is not its mother, but rather its pack leader. And dominance in nature is asserted through fights and violence.
You see some (if not many) people simply take dogs (or other pets) as being dominated. I treated my dog as a friend, and that's why I never "punish" or even threaten to punish her. Reason? She did NOT have to follow my words! Of course, sometimes there may be the question of her not fully understand my meaning (we're still different species after all), but for other times, perhaps she's just naughty or what, and it's ALL FINE.

[1yellowdog]

My dog was very well trained before I got her. She chose on occasion to go potty in the house when she felt it was too cold for her outside. She was quite willful at times even though she knew better. I really don't think much could have been done to fix that about her.
So when the puppy has an accident and the older dog sees that, I can understand why the older dog would follow suit, because it's just easier and more convenient to go in the house than wait and go outside in the cold ;)
My dog wasn't allowed in the basement for the only reason that she used to think it was ok to go to the bathroom down there because the cats had their litter boxes in the basement. I think she thought it was acceptable to go to the bathroom down there because the cats did. The concept of litterboxes was lost on her on I guess.

[Mattones]

My friends dog goes to the bathroom in the bathroom if no one takes it outside. lucky its only a Dashound.

[laptop-tech]

Dogs arent humans. You think circus animals are disciplined by giving them treats?

I have a dog, it had its fair use of spankings (not abuse), and it learned quickly.

The meat and chicken we eat come from animals who are not spanked, but rather slaughtered without any thought of kindness, only money, but your rantng about how its bad to hit a dog?

I'll kick the dog if I have to, but fortunately for me I never had to with mine.

Were you born this much of a jerk or did you become this after being sexually abused by your father at age of 4 ?

[teknoluv]

My dog wasn't allowed in the basement for the only reason that she used to think it was ok to go to the bathroom down there because the cats had their litter boxes in the basement. I think she thought it was acceptable to go to the bathroom down there because the cats did. The concept of litterboxes was lost on her on I guess.

My friends dog goes to the bathroom in the bathroom if no one takes it outside. lucky its only a Dashound.
My dog was actually trained (well trained, by patience, NOT punishment) to go to the bathroom INSIDE the house in a specific location near our kitchen area, where we put a plastic pad (made for changing baby diapers, covered with Bounty); this is very much like the concept of a cat's litter box. She sometimes even went there all by herself (and we only had to pick up the soaked Bounty afterwards) when we were away from home.

[rosebud]

Were you born this much of a jerk or did you become this after being sexually abused by your father at age of 4 ?

were you? :D

[hwoarang]

good luck with the shih-tzu . My sis has one and I swear they got to be one of the stupidest dog breeds. Cant learn commands for ****. I also kick it when my sis aint looking.

breed it with a bulldog

[Trooper8111]

Do it to a big dog and that thing will think you're playing with it.

[felixdd]

My dog was actually trained (well trained, by patience, NOT punishment) to go to the bathroom INSIDE the house in a specific location near our kitchen area, where we put a plastic pad (made for changing baby diapers, covered with Bounty); this is very much like the concept of a cat's litter box. She sometimes even went there all by herself (and we only had to pick up the soaked Bounty afterwards) when we were away from home.

You can buy pee-pads from pet stores designed for that purpose. If you yourself (or know people) who work in a lab, you would recognize those pee-pads as those blue bench-top pads for lab work.

If you have a small dog, you can also buy a litterbox. Just don't use kitty litter; instead use shredded newspaper. That way you don't have to have urine/fecal matter soak into the tiles and the grout, which can create problems long-term. Someone I know does that and it's working out well for them. Of course it really depends on whether your dog accepts the change....

[BlueMax]

I've heard that putting a dog's face or nose into their urine will make them not want to do it indoors anymore

In the case of poop, this will only train the dog to eat it. Seriously. No... the pressing-nose thing doesn't work, it's an old-wives'-tale.

[XtraHardcore]

You don't have to hit your dogs if you don't want to. Next time when your dogs pee indoor, "immediately" Grab the dog in your hands, press its head to sniff its urine, SCREAM at it, and then bring your dog outside to sniff the grass with traces of dog urine toilet papers. You must do this repeatedly 2-3 times on every occasion.

As well, you must clean off the carpet spot where they'd pee right afterwards to get rid of the urine scent, otherwise, they'll pee there again. I'd recommend using bleach to clean the spot. Then again, if your carpet colour is other than white, bleach might not be a good idea for you.

[Dustbunny]

... And dominance in nature is asserted through fights and violence.

Not to say that I condone violence, or harming of an animal. I do believe that in some situations, a light slap on the thigh, coupled with a threatening body language and a loud voice, does drive the point home and increase the salience of the lesson you wish to give. No more than that though -- the purpose of spanking is not to induce pain, but rather to make the lesson more memorable in a fundamental way.


I don't agree about pack leaders gaining position using a lot of violence. The thing is even when dogs are fighting (and I'm not including dogs who have been trained to fight to the death or who are unbalanced) they often sound a lot worse than they are actually being. Left to do as nature intended, rarely would another of the pack be wounded deliberately. They usually establish position without that kind of action and generally any blood letting is more by accident than anything else. The only time most animals have truly violent fights (and not all the time at all either) is during mating when the males are fighting for rights to the females but generally one goes submissive before any true injury.

I think it's fair to say that you have to define 'slapping' and if you are using the methods animals understand it's not a slap but more of a tap (as I can see many defining slap as something which could be anything from a light to a loud hit with an open hand and people have to understand, it's not appropriate). The motion used in proper dog training isn't even an open hand so can't be considered a 'slap' it's more of a tap with the finger tips in position as if you have a ball in your hand (which dogs regard as a mouth with teeth). It's supposed to be firm, but not cause any pain in any form because you can set the dog off into a defensive act if you go causing pain for starters. All you are supposed to be using that imitation bite for is getting their attention when they are focused on, or doing something they aren't supposed to doing.

A slap of any kind is punishment, not discipline and it's discipline you are aiming for. Pain of any kind is not necessary and often counter productive to having a really well behaved pet.

[IronMac]

You don't have to hit your dogs if you don't want to. Next time when your dogs pee indoor, "immediately" Grab the dog in your hands, press its head to sniff its urine, SCREAM at it, and then bring your dog outside to sniff the grass with traces of dog urine toilet papers. You must do this repeatedly 2-3 times on every occasion.

As well, you must clean off the carpet spot where they'd pee right afterwards to get rid of the urine scent, otherwise, they'll pee there again. I'd recommend using bleach to clean the spot. Then again, if your carpet colour is other than white, bleach might not be a good idea for you.

This is a joke right?

[teknoluv]

You can buy pee-pads from pet stores designed for that purpose.
We actually used those blue pet pee pads, but they were REALLY expensive because of their one time use nature. For the PLASTIC pad (made for changing diapers for infants), you can simply cover it with Bounty (not just any paper towel), wipe it clean later with a, guess what, baby wipe, and keep using it forever. It's also good because there will be some smell left behind anyway, so you dog will know it's the place to go. Of course, you don't want to put that in your own bedroom; probably somewhere near e.g. the door to your backyard.

[perplexed_one]

OP: never hit your pet, loud shouting should suffice into scaring it straight. if you hit them they could retaliate.

[Evil Baby]

Things you should do.


I'd go down to Petsmart or whatever pet store you have and pick up the pee pads. They have scents in them that attract dogs to them. Hopefully your dog will do its business on that. When it does take the dog and the pee pad out side so the dog can learn you expect it to do it ouside.

After a while start leaving a pee pad outside and take your dog out regularly.


Also, within 10-15 minutes of every meal take your dog for a quick walk. Make sure you're only giving your dog food/water at certain times of the day, not all througout the day until you've trained the dog to do it's business outside.


Once you've trained your dog to do its business outside you have to start training your dog to work for its food. So take it for walks before you give your dog its food.

You can also start to train your dog to work for its food by making it sit and wait for food until you say it is ok to take it.


edit: as others have mentions putting your dogs face/nose in the mess after the fact is completly useless. The dog will have no idea why it's being punished. At best you can use your a word while the dog is in the act of the business.

word - you should select 1 word for the entire family to use when the dog is doing something you don't like and use it in a firm voice when saying it. Many people use Ah-Ah or Shhhhhhh. It's not recommended to use 'No' because that word is too common in our language.

[at1212b]

Whoever told you that is an idiot.

No, I was watching a show on Life network and this dog instructor show (chubby old fat guy) recommended that's exactly what they suggested to toilet train a dog, or even another bad habit... biting (not in a assault way).

A hit on the nose AREA (not the nose) lightly in regards to their actions directly is the way as well as making them sniff it when they don't want to. They have to associate a level of discomfort with a certain action. And not suprisingly, this worked on my dog, as my dog will almost have a heart attack before she does any business in the house.

[Dustbunny]

No, I was watching a show on Life network and this dog instructor show (chubby old fat guy) recommended that's exactly what they suggested to toilet train a dog, or even another bad habit... biting (not in a assault way).

A hit on the nose AREA (not the nose) lightly in regards to their actions directly is the way as well as making them sniff it when they don't want to. They have to associate a level of discomfort with a certain action. And not suprisingly, this worked on my dog, as my dog will almost have a heart attack before she does any business in the house.

I can't imagine Stanley Coren (if that is the "chubby old fat guy" you are referring to) ever recommending that. Here's one of his videos on a similar problem and not once will you hear or see him suggest such actions. http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?title=285856847&channel=5977435 BTW you can see several of his video's on that site and I bet you could watch every one of them and he never causes a dog discomfort in any way. According to his books, if you want a dog to urinate, just go and hit or frighten them. Their natural response to fear is to urinate so every time they see a person who has hit them they are likely to pee out of fear.

[at1212b]

I can't imagine Stanley Coren (if that is the "chubby old fat guy" you are referring to) ever recommending that. Here's one of his videos on a similar problem and not once will you hear or see him suggest such actions. http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?title=285856847&channel=5977435 BTW you can see several of his video's on that site and I bet you could watch every one of them and he never causes a dog discomfort in any way. According to his books, if you want a dog to urinate, just go and hit or frighten them. Their natural response to fear is to urinate so every time they see a person who has hit them they are likely to pee out of fear.

Okay, I change my wording from 'hit lightly' to 'tap', and maybe he just said that about the biting/knawing thing. And I guess the peeing thing then I must have been somewhere else, but the main thing is, is to make the focus of peeing a negative thing in the house, whether its forcing it to smell it. All I'm saying is it worked for me and no problems here, so when I see other ppl with pets that poo and pee in their house, and are so scared to even do anything about it, I just shake my head and wonder 'man, you are in for a life of discomfort and disgust'.

I just saw the link, which involves a 2nd hand dog. From what I remember, it was a puppy I watched or read about, so alot easier and impressionable to deal with.

[Dustbunny]

...but the main thing is, is to make the focus of peeing a negative thing in the house, whether its forcing it to smell it.

Maybe in your world, but with all newer thinking, you use positive not negative to get dogs to do what you want. It just works which is why it is the main way of training of any kind now.

[TheCheez]

As much as I want to kick my dog when she bolts out the door and chases squirrels around the neighbourhood for 20 min as I leave for work it just doesn't work.