Are Chiropractors Rip-Offs And Scam Artists?

[Kommander_KornFlakes]

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I want to visit a chiropractor due to a sustained lower backpain but want to know if these guys are like Canadian Tire mechanics that make you buy half an engine to fix a minor defect.

I have a friend who went to a chiropractor and told me that they hoodwinked him for 3 months with silly "sessions" that costed his insurance company about $175 for each 1-hour visit. He thinks they could had done the job of correcting his problem in just 2 or 3 visits, not 15.

I have an excellent health insurance but I sure don't want to make these guys rich without me getting nothing out of it, I mean it's not that I want a "cut", I simply don't want to run out the money in my fund because I want to use some of it on dental later on this year.

Has anyone here gone to a chiropractor for a back pain? How many "sessions" were you given, what were their techniques, and did they cured you of your malady?

[dnyc]

i use to go to one last year... what your friend had sounds like a scam if what you're saying is true.. a session should cost around 30-60 a session and at most a session should only last 5-10 minutes. 1 hour is overkill as theres only so much to crack around your body. when i use to go it was crack my neck left and right, crack my upper mid spine.. and lastly lower left and and right back, total 5-10 minutes..

[goldenegg]

He thinks they could had done the job of correcting his problem in just 2 or 3 visits, not 15.

I find it funny when people self diagnose. If your friend thought he wasn't getting proper treatment, he should have gone elsewhere.

Talk to your doctor about the problem you're experiencing. It could be that a chiropractor isn't even the best option for your back pain.

[Kommander_KornFlakes]

i use to go to one last year... what your friend had sounds like a scam if what you're saying is true.. a session should cost around 30-60 a session and at most a session should only last 5-10 minutes. 1 hour is overkill as theres only so much to crack around your body. when i use to go it was crack my neck left and right, crack my upper mid spine.. and lastly lower left and and right back, total 5-10 minutes..

But how many times did you had to go? $60 for 5 minutes?? That's even more of a rip-off to me.

My friend's sessions were LONG, he says on each visit they cracked his spine, pulled his legs forward with his knee almost touching his chin and put "electric stimilus" wires on his lower back for up to 20 mins, all of this in each session. They also massaged his entire back and neck, again for a prolonged period.

Did they get rid of your pain/problem?

[Owbist]

Your friend who had 15 sessions before deciding he was getting ripped off does not seem the brightest candidate.

Go to one yourself and allow them to examine and make recommendations. Then you can draw a conclusion for yourself.

[Kommander_KornFlakes]

Talk to your doctor about the problem you're experiencing. It could be that a chiropractor isn't even the best option for your back pain.

Somebody told me that a doctor has to "refer me", but the chiropractor clinic at 16th Ave and Bathurst (Markham) has a sign that reads "doctor referals not needed".

[dnyc]

well i had student price, so it was i think 28 dollars a session for me adult was like around 30-40 each session... i went to the one on bathurst and dupont.. i went to a lot of sessions.. i use to have major shoulder pains that won't go away, i took tons of ibuprofen pills to relieve the pain to the point where it doesnt even work anymore. since i went i've had no more pains on my shoulder but as my shoulder healed i got lower back pains, but then i stopped going e ventually as i had other commitments to make, i learned how to crack my lower back myself which i know is probably really bad, but i go the gym now.. which really helps strengthen my back

[stillmatic11]

It sounds like your friend got an all-in one package basically of a massage, physiotherapy and chiropractor treatment all in 1 visit. If he didn't feel all that was necessary, then he should have specified what he wanted.

You don't need a referral to walk into a chiropractor office. Most of them accept walk-ins, so whoever told you that is wrong.

I would say it's usually more like 30-45 dollars a session at most places and they can take anywhere from 5-15 minutes typically depending on your condition.

To call them scam artists is pretty ******** considering you actually have to go to school for it and be licensed to practice. With that said, there are certainly some quacks out there, so you may need to search around to find one that's legit.

The best thing to do is to give it a try and see if it works for you. In my opinion, it's an excellent non surgical option that's helped me out greatly. It is very costly though, but I've found it's worth it because it's allowed me to get up out of bed relatively pain free whereas before I didn't.

There's also going to be an initial assessment fee of somewhere around $75 for them to find your problem areas and just to have an overall exam of where pain is coming from and what is misaligned.

[molala]

Somebody told me that a doctor has to "refer me", but the chiropractor clinic at 16th Ave and Bathurst (Markham) has a sign that reads "doctor referals not needed".


There's no such intersection as 16th/Bathurst...it must be Carrville/Bathurst and it's not Markham neither..

$178/session? Either you or your friend is making it up. In fact, insurance company has limit on how much to cover per session cos a small portion of chiro is still covered by OHIP

[goldenegg]

Somebody told me that a doctor has to "refer me", but the chiropractor clinic at 16th Ave and Bathurst (Markham) has a sign that reads "doctor referals not needed".

It doesn't matter whether or not a referral is needed. It's just 'best practice' to get advice from your doctor first.

[hoopsandyoyo]

Somebody told me that a doctor has to "refer me", but the chiropractor clinic at 16th Ave and Bathurst (Markham) has a sign that reads "doctor referals not needed".

yeah thats probably not a smart idea to go to that.

I don't understand the issue with going to your gp to get a referral. Don't you trust your gp?

[kkl1208]

Like any other professions, there are good chiropractors and not so good ones. If you feel uncomfortable, go to http://www.chiropractic.on.ca/ and check out what you can expect in your first session and subsequent sessions. You do not need a medical doctor's referral. On average, initial visit is around $60-80 and subsequent visits are anywhere from 40-60. These are obviously just the normal range, some are cheaper while other are more expensive. As for the person that had $175 per visit to the chiropractor, was this person in a motor vehicle accident? Because of the more extensive therapy required by some MVA cases, the practitioner can charge a bit more. But if this is just a private patient, then 175 per visit is too much, and one that even the insurance company will not accept. So there must be some sort of misunderstanding there. If you need further help on this, PM me.

[Kommander_KornFlakes]

There's no such intersection as 16th/Bathurst...it must be Carrville/Bathurst and it's not Markham neither..


My mistake, it's actually Elgin Mills/Bathurst, got the street confused since they almost run parallel to each other (16th ave and Elgin Mills).


There's also going to be an initial assessment fee of somewhere around $75 for them to find your problem areas and just to have an overall exam of where pain is coming from and what is misaligned.

Do they do an x-ray of your column? Or they just diagnose you based on your pain areas?

I don't understand the issue with going to your gp to get a referral. Don't you trust your gp?

This is absurd, why the hell do I need my doctor to refer me or decide if I need a chiropractor or not? I'm the one with the pain and I know MORE than him what's wrong with my body. My doctor is located at College & Bathurst near China Town, I'm not going to go all the way there to ask him something that I already know, that my back hurts and that I need a chiropractor.

What's my general physician going to do? Prescribe Tylenol 3 and send me home?

[Impossibles]

You don't need a doctor's refferal to see a chiro, in fact most doctors won't refer you to a chiro. Doctors are trained to treat things two ways...medicine or surgery.

Chiros are not for everybody, but for me, my mom, and my girlfriend, they work great. The human body was never designed to sit in place for hours on end or huddled over a keyboard...everything gets pulled out of whack and thats why we get aches and pains all over. Chiros will help with chronic pain and stiffness.

[stillmatic11]

Do they do an x-ray of your column? Or they just diagnose you based on your pain areas?




I think they use a computer program thats hooked up to some sticky pads, which get attached to your back area to measure body temperature to identify problem areas, subluxations and etc. I'm not entirely sure how it exactly it works, but I would say that is approximately what happens from what I understand.

[Lava]

Based on personal experience, I haven't ever had major back pain, but i have had minor back pain, and I don't really think they help. My back would feel better for a few hours, or a day, then It'd be the same or worse the next day.

They always tell people stuff about spine alignment, i have no idea if that is true or not. Spine alignment could be important, and i wouldn't want you to run into back trouble or whatever in the future. So, personally, i didn't find them all that useful for pain, but maybe medically they help.

[kkl1208]

Do they do an x-ray of your column? Or they just diagnose you based on your pain areas?



Depending on what your problem is, they may refer you to get an x-ray. But in most cases, what they will do is perform a detailed physical examination that will include ranges of motion, muscle strength and endurance testings and orthopedic tests to try to narrow down what the problem is. They will also check out what muscles may be tight and tender.

[MtX]

When I had to go get my jaw checked from a jaw " specialist " due to a bike injury, they billed my insurance company $2000 and it only lasted 1 hour.

I also had to go through a " DAC " test which I personally found useless and insulting and that cost $1500 (insurance covered).

[kkl1208]

When I had to go get my jaw checked from a jaw " specialist " due to a bike injury, they billed my insurance company $2000 and it only lasted 1 hour.

I also had to go through a " DAC " test which I personally found useless and insulting and that cost $1500 (insurance covered).

The bike injury, was this because of a motor vehicle accident? MVA is a usually different..and insurance companies cover the 'DAC' because they want you to get a second opinion.

[trilinearmipmap]

1. Chiropractors tell every patient that their spine is "out of alignment".

2. Chiropractic treatment is essentially a placebo. When my back hurts, I usually walk it off. Whether I took medicine, went to a chiropractor, or got other treatment, I would still get better in the same number of days.

3. The role of a physician is to rule out more serious or dangerous causes of back pain, such as a pinched nerve, aortic dissection, bone cancer, etc. etc. etc. Once serious pathology is ruled out, get whatever treatment you want, if you have a back strain or common backache you will get better in the same amount of time no matter which treatment you get.

[MtX]

The bike injury, was this because of a motor vehicle accident? MVA is a usually different..and insurance companies cover the 'DAC' because they want you to get a second opinion.

No it was a bike on bike and I had student insurance at the time so they covered everything. My point is a lot of these specialists, doctors, chiropractors insanely overcharge...

[kkl1208]

No it was a bike on bike and I had student insurance at the time so they covered everything. My point is a lot of these specialists, doctors, chiropractors insanely overcharge...

To be honest, I'm not surprised at the charges. Most of us don't really know how much healthcare actually cost because it is essentially free via OHIP or whatever other provinces use.

[stillmatic11]

1. Chiropractors tell every patient that their spine is "out of alignment".

2. Chiropractic treatment is essentially a placebo. When my back hurts, I usually walk it off. Whether I took medicine, went to a chiropractor, or got other treatment, I would still get better in the same number of days.

3. The role of a physician is to rule out more serious or dangerous causes of back pain, such as a pinched nerve, aortic dissection, bone cancer, etc. etc. etc. Once serious pathology is ruled out, get whatever treatment you want, if you have a back strain or common backache you will get better in the same amount of time no matter which treatment you get.

Chiropractic treatment is not some miracle cure that helps everything. There are also good practioners and bad practioners and this often is reflected in how one views chiropractors in general. Chances are you didn't have such a good one. For some people, it may be ineffective or not really needed so much, but for others it is a tremendous help. I've had several pinched nerves before and getting chiropractic treatment no doubt speeds up recovery. Some of the other benefits besides being pain free for the most part is improved posture, less neck tension and my hips are evened out, which has reduced most of my knee pain as well.

[stillmatic11]

Based on personal experience, I haven't ever had major back pain, but i have had minor back pain, and I don't really think they help. My back would feel better for a few hours, or a day, then It'd be the same or worse the next day.

They always tell people stuff about spine alignment, i have no idea if that is true or not. Spine alignment could be important, and i wouldn't want you to run into back trouble or whatever in the future. So, personally, i didn't find them all that useful for pain, but maybe medically they help.

There could be several factors to this happening. Did you tell your chiropractor about the pain coming back right away? If not, that was definitely something that should have been addressed. You may have had a practitioner who doesn't do it properly or you have very poor posture, which leads to your spine to be misaligned very quickly after being adjusted. You also need to have your spine adjusted regularly to get the most out of it.

It could also be a ton of other things, pain is often a bad indicator as to what is really wrong. If you have ever used trigger point therapy, you would see that there is often times referral pain and the area that hurts directly is often times not the actual problem area.

[freebie]

There's a video I watched many years ago about the (lack of) scientific rigour of the practice of chiropractic medicine.

The show was a long-running program called Scientifc American Frontiers and it was aired on PBS for something like 15 seasons, from 1990-2005.

Here is a link to the episode about chiropractic (Click the Play Video link for the segment called "Adjusting the Joints"):
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1210/video/watchonline.htm

Enjoy! :)

[MtX]

To be honest, I'm not surprised at the charges. Most of us don't really know how much healthcare actually cost because it is essentially free via OHIP or whatever other provinces use.

The actual cost is much cheaper - there's no way an average person could/would pay for all the tests and treatment.

After my bike accident, I also took some chiropractic sessions from a close relative who works in the sports injury business. I was going to receive free treatment from my relative but surprisingly the insurance company approved. Instead of charging the normal rate of ~$60/session (for those who pay out of their own pockets), my relative " smartly " billed my insurance 2-3x the normal rate.

Hell yeah it's a ripoff of the insurance companies/OHIP but as long as you don't have to pay for it out of your pocket, who cares right? Scam? Probably not, unless you're spending tons of time and money without improvement.

If anything can be learned from this...medical professions are damn ludicrous...if your patient's are covered by insurance/OHIP, you basically write your own check :D.

[Dustbunny]

I think you have to realize you probably can't compare your problem to anyone else's when it comes to treatments. Chiro is really good when there are bone problems resulting in pinched nerves or spasms. Physio generally only addresses the spasms, surgeons freely admit now they can't do much for most back pain (and related), and traditional doctors won't refer to a chiro because they have a bit of animosity going on between them.

So, if you have pain in joints or your back, going to a chiro can really help. Yes you need to go for a while but it depends on the problem. Most will try and convince you to go regularly but more often than not, it's overkill IMO. You do have to go long enough that you aren't in pain anymore and that means for at least a week or so after treatment. If you stop too soon, you usually end up where you started pretty quickly.

Whether you get massage or the electrical muscle stimulation or just adjustments depends on the issue. Most will take an x-ray of your spine the first visit and you pay extra for that first visit to really have them see what is going on. After that the visits are pretty short and cost less.

I have a really bad back and can tell you I have been to GP's, back surgeons, physio and the only thing that works for me is the chiro. Sometimes I'm fixed up in a few sessions, other times it does take a month or two. They seem to be the only ones who can fix a pinched nerve or get a joint moving right again when it's not strictly a muscular issue. The one thing I have learned is when I need help, if I wait too long, I end up having to have more sessions than if I'd just gone it when it started. Generally I would say I find immediate pain relief within a couple of sessions but more often than not if I stop there I end up back in pain in no time.

Do ask around to see who people in your area can recommend. Like anything else, some are better than others, some charge more than others, some are more interested in your wallet than your health. You need to find someone you trust and who can help you with what is bothering you.

[raymondly]

Youtube search for Penn & Teller's Bull***** episode on Chiropracters and have a very funny alternate opinion.
I usually tend to agree with P&T, mostly..........

[hoopsandyoyo]

This is absurd, why the hell do I need my doctor to refer me or decide if I need a chiropractor or not? I'm the one with the pain and I know MORE than him what's wrong with my body. My doctor is located at College & Bathurst near China Town, I'm not going to go all the way there to ask him something that I already know, that my back hurts and that I need a chiropractor.

What's my general physician going to do? Prescribe Tylenol 3 and send me home?



WOw......dr. corn head in the house.......
1. calm down crazy
2. No one doubts there something wrong. I just think a GP will know better on how to intially diagnose what that 'thing' is and how to verify and treat it. How do you know your issue requires a chiro? How do you knwo its not a deeper issue which should be looked at with a X ray or something like that. And how do you know your gp can't refer you to a qualified chiro which specializes in treating issues similair to yours...and not some general joe blow? Open your eyes DR. corn head an stop thinking you know more then your doc.

For your sake I hope you dont' end up in some chop shop chiro. Also for your sake i hope it is just a chiro you need and that your issue isn't a displaced disc or something crazy causing your back pain.....but ... you're able to know that and know for sure a chiro can treat that correctly,,,,,right dr corn head?

[JAC]

I generally place chiropracty one step above phrenology in the credibility scale, but for a true acid test, ask the chiropractor his opinion on vertebral subluxation. If he doesn't laugh and tell you it's nonsense, find another chiro.

[CSK'sMom]

For me, my chiro has kept me more mobile now and in the long term. I have AS (Ankylosing Spondylitis). Because my joints are deteriorating and fusing the manipulations (including neck!) break the tiny fusions as they are happening. He keeps me relatively pain free, so much so that I haven't need to go on meds as of yet. Hubby and the kids go as well to my chiro. Last year hubby had a sciatic episode that literally had him on the floor. Our chiro had him moving pain free within about 6 weeks. Our boys see him regularly during football season, at a minimum after every game as well as if they have any injuries.

All in all, it's not for everyone and half the battle is finding a good chiro. We consider ourselves lucky to have found ours. His charge for adults is $33 (less if you pay upfront for a maintenance plan) and the kids are only $10....

[thelefteyeguy]

yes

[brendonp]

I generally place chiropracty one step above phrenology in the credibility scale, but for a true acid test, ask the chiropractor his opinion on vertebral subluxation. If he doesn't laugh and tell you it's nonsense, find another chiro.

Hey, I've been using the bumps on my skull to pick stocks - are you saying this may not be a good idea? :razz:

I'm pretty close to you on the assessment - some chiros do seem to be able to relieve a bit of pain (though I can't tell how much of this is placebo effect). Unfortunately, even if they did really relieve the pain (which I'm open to accepting), they actually aren't solving any problems. Your bones don't hold your back (or any other part of your body) in proper form - that's the job of your muscles!

[skewed]

Go see a physiotherapist instead of a chiropractor.

Not only will they give you treatment and exercises to make you better, but they will also help you out to ensure it won't happen again with prevention.

Money well spent for your insurance company instead of a plan consisting of many "quick fixes".

[sleepyguy]

Earlier this year my SO decided to see a Chiro in our area. Weird but then she said they asked me to come along... wtf... oh well... I'll bite, seeing as it was only 20-30mins or something like that.

What I got was well... very very scary imho. I'll just sum it up.

- place was very nice, clean, classy and look overall look very professional
- we all sit (SO + boyfriends/husbands) in a room and they play a video and to do some sorta talk about spinal fluid and body balance and current medical mumbo jumbo. (i'm like WTF right there)
- they use EXTREME scare tactics with stoopid x-ray scans of past and current patients. Past scans were literally "hunchback, quasimotto".
- lol, re-read some post above... "vertebral subluxation" they must have said this 1000x in the stoopid presentation. I almost barfed.

- I sat there listeing to this garbage for 30mins out of courtesy to my SO.

we never did sign up and we both just do phsio/massage therapy every now and again. -sg

[ferkel]

Like others have said.. go to the gym instead of seeing a chiro. Seeing a chiro is the worse thing you can do because you will never be healed.

[king_george]

I fractured my spine in 1992 and went to a chiro on the advice of a friend. Two were quacks telling me that they can cure me outright for the cost of my house and possibly my firstborn. The xray series alone would have costed about 2,000.:mad:
Third one was a really good guy who told me that I need surgery and nothing he can do will fix my spine. He told me that I needed to be stretched like on a medieval torture rack to keep the disc hernia and fracture site from scarring too badly. The man sold me a waistband that hooked up to two weight bags. You put the waistband on, put some weight in the bags (2.5 kg each I think), lie down with a pillow or two under the lower back and put the weight bags that are attached to long strings over something so the weight pulls your hips away from the body. Didn't cure me but it sure helped ease the pain until the surgery. Plus it only costed me 20 for the visit and 25 for the equipment.

I saw him occasionally up until he retired. A good guy who was honest throughout. Very refreshing when dealing with potential quacks.:)

[Tijuana]

I go once a month, its only a scam if your chiropractor is doing it to scam. There are honest chiropractors

[goldenegg]

I'm the one with the pain and I know MORE than him what's wrong with my body. My doctor is located at College & Bathurst near China Town, I'm not going to go all the way there to ask him something that I already know, that my back hurts and that I need a chiropractor.

If you KNOW that you need a chiropractor, why did you even bother posting?

You are not a trained doctor and should not self diagnose. Self diagnosing is a major cause of many health problems people have. Your doctor will let you know if you do need a chiropractor and will also be able to refer you to one who should be able to provide proper service.

If it's such a chore to get out to your doctor, maybe it's time to find a new doctor who's closer to where you live.

[Dustbunny]

...Your doctor will let you know if you do need a chiropractor and will also be able to refer you to one who should be able to provide proper service.


Chances are a doctor will not refer to a chiro or ever admit you need one. Most doctors will having nothing to do with chiro so they are a biased source if you expect a straight opinion from them. The reality is most doctors are absolutely closed to the idea of this unless they have some personal experience with having treatments.

[stillmatic11]

Go see a physiotherapist instead of a chiropractor.

Not only will they give you treatment and exercises to make you better, but they will also help you out to ensure it won't happen again with prevention.

Money well spent for your insurance company instead of a plan consisting of many "quick fixes".

To totally dismiss chiropractors is just being naive. From personal experience, it has helped me a lot where other treatments have not. Does it cure everything? Obviously not, but it is helpful in many instances.

You should implement exercise and the strengthening of your muscles no matter what treatment you do, this much should be common sense. If you strengthen your body and keep all your muscles balanced out, you're going to experience less pain and discomfort.

It's like I've said time and time again, there are good and bad chiropractors. You need to go to one that is legit before you can discredit all of them.

For me, I use a combination of physiotherapy, chiropractors and massages in order to feel pain free. I also do the necessary stability exercises in order to strengthen and balance out my entire body. Each treatment will sometimes work best for a given situation depending on the type of injury/pain you are experiencing. There is no miracle cure for everything and I think most people just have unrealistic expectations expecting just that.

[dell]

http://www.surfthechannel.com/info/television/Penn_%26_Teller%3A_********%21/48381/S1E2.html

Penn & Teller: Bullsh*t had an episode about alternative medicine which had a segment about chiropractors. Cracking an infants bone sounds pretty disturbing.

[phomp]

Like others have said.. go to the gym instead of seeing a chiro. Seeing a chiro is the worse thing you can do because you will never be healed.


I go to the gym to build the muscles but I have a small case of scoliosis and the bottom 2 vertabrae are fused which create a pinched nerve. I got the X-rays from the doctor who recommeded I find a good chiropractor. My chiropractor does not tell me he is going to heal me... nor does he claim I will be healed. He loosens me up (helps with my hockey) and eases the pain.
He is the team chiropractor and has patients from the Toronto Argonauts, Mississauga Chargers (JR A hockey),Mississauga Ice Dogs (OHL, whatever they are called now). Before the treatment I lift my leg (lying down on my back) and it barely lifts straight and pulls my back up with it and after the treatment I lift my leg the same way and it pulls straight up (a lot better anyway as I am not flexable) and my back does not lift off the ground and I feel a lot more loose.

There are doctors out there that claim they can "realign" your bones by pushing on spots on your body. These are the scam artists out there. Im sure there are bad chiropractors but to say they are all scam artists or rip offs is just silly.

[Kommander_KornFlakes]

I generally place chiropracty one step above phrenology in the credibility scale, but for a true acid test, ask the chiropractor his opinion on vertebral subluxation. If he doesn't laugh and tell you it's nonsense, find another chiro.

This is what I'm talking about, some people have told me that chiropracters are merely licenced & approved sham "medicine men". There's no scientific proof that their science actually works or if it's medically legitimate.

I'm also wary of their lust for your wallet $$$ and their cynic practice of trying to get you to do sessions with them for months on end even when you don't really need it. I can't believe why authorities don't investigate and crackdown on these "back column doctors".

-



http://images.drwellnesscoach.com/local/416/spine_full.jpg

[Dustbunny]

This is what I'm talking about, some people have told me that chiropracters are merely licenced & approved sham "medicine men". There's no scientific proof that their science actually works or if it's medically legitimate.


Well some people might even believe that, but until you try it yourself and see for yourself, don't judge. It's a complementary medical treatment that works for a lot of problems other medicine just can't help at all.

[sixer]

Go see a physiotherapist instead of a chiropractor.

Not only will they give you treatment and exercises to make you better, but they will also help you out to ensure it won't happen again with prevention.

Money well spent for your insurance company instead of a plan consisting of many "quick fixes".

+1

[Kommander_KornFlakes]

-
So a physiotherapist will make me do exercizes and give me "prevention" talk to cure my back pain? These guys sound more of a rip-off than chiropractors.

[koft]

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So a physiotherapist will make me do exercizes and give me "prevention" talk to cure my back pain? These guys sound more of a rip-off than chiropractors.

So constantly telling you needing an adjustment to align your spinal column is better than prevention?

[najibs]

-
So a physiotherapist will make me do exercizes and give me "prevention" talk to cure my back pain? These guys sound more of a rip-off than chiropractors.

Usually, Physiotherapy and chiropractors work together. I go to the chiro once a month, and it feels great everytime I go. Think about it...your back holds up your body, and like anything that has moving parts, it's only normal for it to require regular maintenance to keep it working properly, and free of pain.

If you go to a doctor for back pain, he'll give you pills to mask the pain, but that still doesn't get to the root of the problem. Chiropractors do get to the root of the problem.

I fully support chiropractic medicine.

[mr.flint]

I was referred to a chiro by my doc, after the x ray showed a mildly slipped disk.
had 6 sessions in total at 40 bucks each, which i had to pay out of my pocket, thanks to Dalton (Thank you Ontario Liberal voters, for voting in the Liberal goverment of Ontario not once but twice.)
Fixed me real good, no more back pain, can be physically active again and stuff...
I guess the one i was referred to wasnt a hack.

[lowrider_62]

Like others have said.. go to the gym instead of seeing a chiro. Seeing a chiro is the worse thing you can do because you will never be healed.

Chiro's belong to the group of "alternative medicine" which uses no drugs and surgery.

I went to a chiro and he really didn't explain to me why I had to keep coming back. There was no problems with my back during my initial assessment ($75) and he told me to keep coming back every week for an adjustment ($32). I came back since I had chiro coverage ($500/yr). Looking back at this, he didn't explain to me why I had to come back for more visits.

Back in 1998 or 1999, Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College (CMCC) wanted to team up with York University. But at the end York didn't want to be associated with chiropractic because of it's association with "alternative medicine" and no evidence to conclude that chiropractic helps.

In 2004, OHIP removed chiropractic care.

This trend leads me to believe that chiropractic is of less importance compared to "allopathic medicine" (drugs/surgery).

I don't want to conclude that chiropractic works because I've only been to one chiropractor. Looking back, this chiro is a quack. I'm not sure if I'll ever come back to a chiropractor.

There are many chiro's that do questionable patients such as children and babies, yes, babies! There are many quacks in this profession. Many medical professions have quacks but make sure you go to a good one.

[lowrider_62]

Chances are a doctor will not refer to a chiro or ever admit you need one. Most doctors will having nothing to do with chiro so they are a biased source if you expect a straight opinion from them. The reality is most doctors are absolutely closed to the idea of this unless they have some personal experience with having treatments.

I don't think doctors will refer patients to chiros. However, I've seen practices where there is a physician and a chiro.

Physicians belong to allopathic medicine (drugs/surgery)
Chiros belong to alternative medicine (no drugs/surgery)
There's a conflict of interest.

Chro's need as much clientele as they can possibly get. So I don't think many chiro's out there would need a physician to refer to them.

[Gloaming]

Like any other professions, there are good chiropractors and not so good ones. If you feel uncomfortable, go to http://www.chiropractic.on.ca/ and check out what you can expect in your first session and subsequent sessions. You do not need a medical doctor's referral. On average, initial visit is around $60-80 and subsequent visits are anywhere from 40-60. These are obviously just the normal range, some are cheaper while other are more expensive. As for the person that had $175 per visit to the chiropractor, was this person in a motor vehicle accident? Because of the more extensive therapy required by some MVA cases, the practitioner can charge a bit more. But if this is just a private patient, then 175 per visit is too much, and one that even the insurance company will not accept. So there must be some sort of misunderstanding there. If you need further help on this, PM me.

Such a correct statement. I know a chiropractor that audits for insurance companies- he now understands why his profession has a bad reputation.

[KennethToronto]

Whatever benefit you may or may not derive from a chiropractor, it is entirely a placebo effect. Not much of their work is substantiated in any way, whether it be by trials or some sort of evidence based approach. And calling themselves "doctors"...haha.

But hey, if people like to throw their money away for a delusion, there's nothing that should stop them.

[lowrider_62]

It's funny when I asked my chiro "it's now December and I have $250 left on my insurance for chiro. Do I have to use all of this up?"

He replied "For sure."

[lowrider_62]

Whatever benefit you may or may not derive from a chiropractor, it is entirely a placebo effect. Not much of their work is substantiated in any way, whether it be by trials or some sort of evidence based approach. And calling themselves "doctors"...haha.

But hey, if people like to throw their money away for a delusion, there's nothing that should stop them.

If your going to spend 4 years on chiro school or naturopathic school (after you finish your undergrad) and excess of $100k, you mind as well apply to medical school instead.

There's just more opportunities and money with medical school.

[Kasakato]

Anyone watch the Penn and Teller video on YouTube? Anyways, in their (weak) defense: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3987/is_200303/ai_n9168262

[aquariaguy]

-
So a physiotherapist will make me do exercizes and give me "prevention" talk to cure my back pain? These guys sound more of a rip-off than chiropractors.

Actually phyios do a lot more than help you exercise. They help people for rehab after accidents. Let's see a chiro do that. Chiro's...

[Euphoriiick]

I went to CMCC and was practicing for a 3-4 years before I decide to give it up and work for the government. Anyways, Chiropractic works great for a number of musculoskeletal conditions but for the most part it has a transient effect. A lot of chiros follow an out dated "subluxation model" that results in practitioners erroneously telling patients that their "spine is out of alignment" and that they have a "pinched nerve" or "nerve interference" due to the spinal misalignment. This concept is complete BS, but it is used to keep patients coming back for maintenance. In my opinion Chiropractic works by PASSIVELY maintaining joint mobility, something we can all do on our own but we've given up due to our inherent lazziness and modern day conveniences.

Think of it this way, we like all the other mammals on this planet are designed for mobility. In the natural world mammals are required to exert themselves to attain all the required necessities to survive (i.e. food, sex). As such there ongoing daily physical struggles constitute a degree of ACTIVE therapy by consistently maintaining there various joints with movement. You don't normally see mammals coming down with diabetes, obesity, hyperthyroidism, arthritis, etc.

As an aside, our various joints (i.e. synovial) are largely avascular (lack a good blood supply) and therefore require synovial fluid (secreted by the jointy capsule) for metabolite removal and nutrient uptake, and joint movement stimulates the release of this synovial fluid into joint spaces resulting in limber joints with a medium for biochemical reactions need for joint maintenance and repair. An everyday analogy of this is the oil that lubricates a car's engine so that the moving parts do not seize up. Physical Movement maintains this structural system in tact and healthy.

Now think what happens with the sedentary individual who works 9-5 in an office setting with little movement other that repetitive actions such as typing, talking on the phone (phone held between head and shoulder), etc. The body joints are not mobilized and the synovial fluid is not secreted from the joint capsule, and therefore the joint's nutritional status begins to decline. This results in biochemical degradation which results in osteoarthritis (aka arthritis). The repetitive actions result in repetitive strain injuries such as carpal tunnel syndrome, tendinitis, headaches, backaches, etc. As a result these individuals go to a chiro and gets PASSIVE care which results in some increased joint mobility, resulting in temporary joint lubrication with synovial fluid and reflex muscle relaxation and the individual feel temporarily better.

Anyways, proper chiropractic treatment involves cracking joints via adjustments, soft tissue therapy (i.e. ART) to loosen muscles and ligaments in a PASSIVE manner. If people actually became more fit in their lives (i.e. more walking, working out properly at the gym, yoga, etc. they would in essence be doing ACTIVE rehabilitation. Their joints being maintained with exercise and their muscles and ligaments supple due to stretching and increased blood flow that comes with ACTIVE living.

More likely than not, active gym members and active individuals will not have the same complaints as their sedentary counterparts, and their joints benefit from their daily exertions/struggles at the gym. Developing good core strength basically allows for the development of muscular support of the spine.

So what does all this mean? Well there are good chiros out there and the key things to remember is that the goods ones will:

1. Not require you to max out your insurance (but they do want to make a living)
2. Not give you BS info such as "nerve interference, subluxations", or the need for lengthy treatment plans. Most issues can be addressed after a few visits (3-5) and should not go longer than 1 month.
3. Provide informed consent - ie risks associated with care such as strokes from cervical adjustments
4. Spend more than 5 minutes with you (ideal is 15-20 minutes)
5. Use more that just adjustments for care. They should provide evidence based patient education, physiotherapeutic modalities such as heat, ultrasound, muscle stim, TENS, home exercise and stretches.
6. Always respect your concerns and give options for care, including referrals for issues outside their scope of practice
7. Monitor your progress with intermittent evaluations of your complaint with proven objective measures such as neurological evaluations (reflexes, sensation, ranges of motions) and orthopedic testing.

[molala]

I went to CMCC and was practicing for a 3-4 years before I decide to give it up and work for the government. Anyways, Chiropractic works great for a number of musculoskeletal conditions but for the most part it has a transient effect. A lot of chiros follow an out dated "subluxation model" that results in practitioners erroneously telling patients that their "spine is out of alignment" and that they have a "pinched nerve" or "nerve interference" due to the spinal misalignment. This concept is complete BS, but it is used to keep patients coming back for maintenance. In my opinion Chiropractic works by PASSIVELY maintaining joint mobility, something we can all do on our own but we've given up due to our inherent lazziness and modern day conveniences.

Think of it this way, we like all the other mammals on this planet are designed for mobility. In the natural world mammals are required to exert themselves to attain all the required necessities to survive (i.e. food, sex). As such there ongoing daily physical struggles constitute a degree of ACTIVE therapy by consistently maintaining there various joints with movement. You don't normally see mammals coming down with diabetes, obesity, hyperthyroidism, arthritis, etc.

As an aside, our various joints (i.e. synovial) are largely avascular (lack a good blood supply) and therefore require synovial fluid (secreted by the jointy capsule) for metabolite removal and nutrient uptake, and joint movement stimulates the release of this synovial fluid into joint spaces resulting in limber joints with a medium for biochemical reactions need for joint maintenance and repair. An everyday analogy of this is the oil that lubricates a car's engine so that the moving parts do not seize up. Physical Movement maintains this structural system in tact and healthy.

Now think what happens with the sedentary individual who works 9-5 in an office setting with little movement other that repetitive actions such as typing, talking on the phone (phone held between head and shoulder), etc. The body joints are not mobilized and the synovial fluid is not secreted from the joint capsule, and therefore the joint's nutritional status begins to decline. This results in biochemical degradation which results in osteoarthritis (aka arthritis). The repetitive actions result in repetitive strain injuries such as carpal tunnel syndrome, tendinitis, headaches, backaches, etc. As a result these individuals go to a chiro and gets PASSIVE care which results in some increased joint mobility, resulting in temporary joint lubrication with synovial fluid and reflex muscle relaxation and the individual feel temporarily better.

Anyways, proper chiropractic treatment involves cracking joints via adjustments, soft tissue therapy (i.e. ART) to loosen muscles and ligaments in a PASSIVE manner. If people actually became more fit in their lives (i.e. more walking, working out properly at the gym, yoga, etc. they would in essence be doing ACTIVE rehabilitation. Their joints being maintained with exercise and their muscles and ligaments supple due to stretching and increased blood flow that comes with ACTIVE living.

More likely than not, active gym members and active individuals will not have the same complaints as their sedentary counterparts, and their joints benefit from their daily exertions/struggles at the gym. Developing good core strength basically allows for the development of muscular support of the spine.

So what does all this mean? Well there are good chiros out there and the key things to remember is that the goods ones will:

1. Not require you to max out your insurance (but they do want to make a living)
2. Not give you BS info such as "nerve interference, subluxations", or the need for lengthy treatment plans. Most issues can be addressed after a few visits (3-5) and should not go longer than 1 month.
3. Provide informed consent - ie risks associated with care such as strokes from cervical adjustments
4. Spend more than 5 minutes with you (ideal is 15-20 minutes)
5. Use more that just adjustments for care. They should provide evidence based patient education, physiotherapeutic modalities such as heat, ultrasound, muscle stim, TENS, home exercise and stretches.
6. Always respect your concerns and give options for care, including referrals for issues outside their scope of practice
7. Monitor your progress with intermittent evaluations of your complaint with proven objective measures such as neurological evaluations (reflexes, sensation, ranges of motions) and orthopedic testing.


great post!! why did you give up being a doctor and turned to the gov't?!?

[sweeper]

great post!! why did you give up being a doctor and turned to the gov't?!?

chiropractors aren't doctors.. they're chiropractors.

there's a reason why no university in the world is affiliated with a chiropractic school.

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/reprint/160/1/99.pdf

[molala]

chiropractors aren't doctors.. they're chiropractors.


they are not medical doctors, but they are doctors

[sweeper]

they are not medical doctors, but they are doctors

depends on what you define as 'Doctor.' *shrug*

[molala]

depends on what you define as 'Doctor.' *shrug*

can't handle the truth? it's not up to me or you on how to define it. you walk by any chiropractor's clinic and it says Dr. XXXXX Chiropractor

[sweeper]

can't handle the truth? it's not up to me or you on how to define it. you walk by any chiropractor's clinic and it says Dr. XXXXX Chiropractor

what truth? :confused: they can call themselves whatever they want, i'm not gonna stay up worrying about it. :lol:

[CCCC3333]

http://www.chirobase.org/

[molala]

what truth? :confused: they can call themselves whatever they want, i'm not gonna stay up worrying about it. :lol:

yea.you should go to bed....your school bus is picking you up at 8:30. BTW how was the first month of jr. high?

[sweeper]

yea.you should go to bed....your school bus is picking you up at 8:30. BTW how was the first month of jr. high?

actually i biked to school in my first month of jr. high.

[laptop-tech]

I used one and would HIGHLY recommend to anyone to give it a try. The day you get a good chiro you realize how ignorant it is to bash something you never tried.

[Euphoriiick]

great post!! why did you give up being a doctor and turned to the gov't?!?

Better money, 8-4 monday to friday, benefits, pension, paid holidays and sick days, and awesome work environment. No complaining from patients who never seem to get better (especially if they've been in an MVA and there trying to make their injuries look worse for a insurance payout). Also, no need to worry about complicated taxation processes and fluctuations in income due to market conditions.

It's really sad to say this, but more often than not, the successful chiropractors (making a lot of cash) tend to be the one who sell the idea of "subluxations", "nerve interference", "dis-ease", "misaligned spine" and other antiquated concepts all for the purpose of keeping their patients coming back. Your spine cannot be misaligned, all spines have variations in shape (i.e. lordosis, kyphosis, and even scoliosis) but receiving chiropractic DOES NOT straighten your spine.

[Euphoriiick]

depends on what you define as 'Doctor.' *shrug*
They are primary contact physicians by definition as the academic curriculum covers similar aspects as medical doctors, but the largely defining difference is that medical doctors get a much better internship program with more hands on and WAY more patient contact hours. I prefer to think of chiropractors more of musculoskeletal specialists, similar to physiatry or orthopedic surgery, but limited in scope of practice (i.e. manual therapy (non-invasive) vs. surgery/medication (invasive).

I'm my opinion, chiropractors are ideally taught to identify other medical conditions (i.e. psychiatric disorder, rheumatic conditions, etc.) and should refer the patients to medical doctors for follow-up. Unfortunately, actual patient exposure to many of these conditions are limited which subsequently affects the chiros diagnostic abilities in real practice.

[Euphoriiick]

I used one and would HIGHLY recommend to anyone to give it a try. The day you get a good chiro you realize how ignorant it is to bash something you never tried.

Yes there are good chiros out there but the main problem with the profession is lack of standard care. For example, Twenty chiros working in one town may all offer completely different services (i.e. Diversified, craniosacral therapy, Thompson technique, Activator methods, Pettibone, Network, etc, etc.) making intra-practitioner reliability very low. Many of these techniques are not part of the academic curriculum and are taught after school in clubs by other students and guest lecturers, and as such are questionable in effectiveness,

Now when you look at medical doctors, there methods of care are pretty much standard, for example if your sick with a bacterial infection antibiotics are prescribed, if your depressed antidepressants are given, if your hypertensive antihypertensives are given. However, chiropractic care will focus more on the cause of the problem, while medical care tends to be symptom-based care on average.

[Euphoriiick]

chiropractors aren't doctors.. they're chiropractors.

there's a reason why no university in the world is affiliated with a chiropractic school.

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/reprint/160/1/99.pdf

Actually, there are a number of Universities that offer chiropractic education, but I believe they are in Australia, England and other areas in the eastern hemisphere (if memory serves me correctly) ;)

[laptop-tech]

...Now when you look at medical doctors, there methods of care are pretty much standard, for example if your sick with a bacterial infection antibiotics are prescribed, if your depressed antidepressants are given, if your hypertensive antihypertensives are given. However, chiropractic care will focus more on the cause of the problem, while medical care tends to be symptom-based care on average.

Yet, people with breast cancer on the left side go for surgery and end up having the right side removed, or with instruments forgotten inside them. There will be always problems with health care.

[Euphoriiick]

Yet, people with breast cancer on the left side go for surgery and end up having the right side removed, or with instruments forgotten inside them. There will be always problems with health care.

Yes were all human and to err is human. Always, research big decisions in your life including health care. Look up medical doctors on the CPSO website or name search on Google that may give better insight into a professional's abilities.

[sweeper]

Actually, there are a number of Universities that offer chiropractic education, but I believe they are in Australia, England and other areas in the eastern hemisphere (if memory serves me correctly) ;)

really.
please post, very curious to see which universities you are referring to.

[Mansech]

This thread reminds me of a Seinfeld episode..
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=wVbG3mBAOCE

[Euphoriiick]

really.
please post, very curious to see which universities you are referring to.

http://www.bridgeport.edu/pages/3239.asp
http://www.chiro.mq.edu.au/aboutus/Chiropractic.htm
http://www.chiropractic.murdoch.edu.au/
http://www.rmit.edu.au/chiropractic
http://www.uj.ac.za/chiropractic/ChiropracticClinic/tabid/5197/Default.aspx
http://www.glam.ac.uk/courses/685/130

I'm sure there's more but this is what I could find on Google on a brief scan.

[AnnaBanana]

Here's my question:

Has anyone who has ever been to see a chiropractor EVER been told that they didn't need anything "alligned" or "adjusted" because things were actually ok? NO. And why? Becaues they wanna bill you. That is the easiest way to find out if someone is honest.

Compare it to any study that has been done with mechanics - where someone with an undercover camera will show that nothing is in fact wrong with a car, and they'll bring it to a mechanic, and 95% of the time the mechanic will find 'something' and charge them (usually fraudulent). GUARANTEED that if the same thing happened with an Olympic trained athlete in top physical form, and that individual went to the chiropractor, the chiropractor would find SOMETHING that needed to be alligned... and charge them.

Compare to this to an MD, I have gone for many physicals where i have been told i'm perfectly fine and see ya in a couple of years. Same with the dentist. Some insist that you come back every 6 months (as they know that they can charge insurance usually twice per year) - whereas other, more honest ones, will say "come back in a year", if that's all your type of teeth need.

Conclusion? There are scammers in EVERY profession, unfortunately chiros have plenty as there is no peer-based evidence that demonstrates any clear clinical benefits to what they do. I have a friend who was told to put GARLIC IN HER EAR when she had a cold. By her Chiro. And she did. Amazing....

[sweeper]

http://www.bridgeport.edu/pages/3239.asp
http://www.chiro.mq.edu.au/aboutus/Chiropractic.htm
http://www.chiropractic.murdoch.edu.au/
http://www.rmit.edu.au/chiropractic
http://www.uj.ac.za/chiropractic/ChiropracticClinic/tabid/5197/Default.aspx
http://www.glam.ac.uk/courses/685/130

I'm sure there's more but this is what I could find on Google on a brief scan.

hm. very interesting.

I wonder when a major Canadian University will be affiliated with a Chiropractic Institution, if one hasn't already done so.

[perplexed_one]

in short, yes.

you are more likely to get your spine in worst shape than before you came in.

Rule #1 should be "Don't fcuk with sensitive bodily organs (that includes the spine)?"

[JAC]

can't handle the truth? it's not up to me or you on how to define it. you walk by any chiropractor's clinic and it says Dr. XXXXX Chiropractor

A philosophy major with a Ph.D is also a doctor. That doesn't mean I'll let one f**k with my vertebrae.

[gnunn]

hm. very interesting.

I wonder when a major Canadian University will be affiliated with a Chiropractic Institution, if one hasn't already done so.

York University almost became affiliated with a Chiropractic college back in 2001, see:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_1_26/ai_80924581

[Euphoriiick]

Here's my question:

Has anyone who has ever been to see a chiropractor EVER been told that they didn't need anything "alligned" or "adjusted" because things were actually ok? NO. And why? Becaues they wanna bill you. That is the easiest way to find out if someone is honest.

Compare it to any study that has been done with mechanics - where someone with an undercover camera will show that nothing is in fact wrong with a car, and they'll bring it to a mechanic, and 95% of the time the mechanic will find 'something' and charge them (usually fraudulent). GUARANTEED that if the same thing happened with an Olympic trained athlete in top physical form, and that individual went to the chiropractor, the chiropractor would find SOMETHING that needed to be alligned... and charge them.

Compare to this to an MD, I have gone for many physicals where i have been told i'm perfectly fine and see ya in a couple of years. Same with the dentist. Some insist that you come back every 6 months (as they know that they can charge insurance usually twice per year) - whereas other, more honest ones, will say "come back in a year", if that's all your type of teeth need.

Conclusion? There are scammers in EVERY profession, unfortunately chiros have plenty as there is no peer-based evidence that demonstrates any clear clinical benefits to what they do. I have a friend who was told to put GARLIC IN HER EAR when she had a cold. By her Chiro. And she did. Amazing....

The main difference here is the billing structure. All medical doctors get paid through OHIP (think of it as guaranteed income) so medical doctors do not have a need to worry about their income as patients do not have to pay out of pocket. In essence everybody wins (except the taxpayer). Medical doctors get anywhere between $17 and $30 a visit from OHIP, and as we've all seen in medical clinics, physician see anywhere from 5 to 15 people an hour so you can see the large cash flow.

Chiropractors, on the other hand, use to have partial OHIP coverage ($10 a visit) and therefore relied on additional fees to make an income. OHIP delisted chiropractic services in 2002 and as such chiropractors rely on insurance and patient out-of-pocket spending for income. Therefore patients lose out as no one wants to pay for health coverage given that Canadians have come to enjoy universal health care.

The same idea exists between Psychiatrists and Psychologist, Psychiatrists make money via OHIP while Psychologists rely on insurance and out-of-pocket from clients.

Unfortunately, honest health providers tend to be those with the most stable income on average. If Chiropractors were fully covered by OHIP then the chances your be given an honest answer would be large.

[Euphoriiick]

A philosophy major with a Ph.D is also a doctor. That doesn't mean I'll let one f**k with my vertebrae.

Your logic is distorted, the term doctor is a "respect customarily accorded to those who have received a doctorate. It comes to English from Old French and is the agent form of the Latin verb docere, "to teach"." (wikipedia).

You would go see your philosophy "doctor" for issues pertaining to ethics, moral code, etc. so that this individual would "teach" you something to help yourself. Chiropractors receive a focused education in musculoskeletal issues and care, and their job is to teach you how to prevent your issues from reoccurring or progressing. All doctors are meant to teach their patients and laymen about their issues and provided informed choices and possibilities for care.

[g0lden0rchard]

I dont think chiropractors should be called doctors

[Euphoriiick]

I don't think chiropractors should be called doctors

We are all welcome to our opinions but remember that doctor is equivalent to a teacher, nothing more. Doctors are not gods. Moreover, if you've gone through an accredited chiropractic curriculum (which is quite grueling) you would understand the reason why chiropractors are called doctors.

[sweeper]

^ not as grueling as an MD.

[NDman]

We are all welcome to our opinions but remember that doctor is equivalent to a teacher, nothing more. Doctors are not gods. Moreover, if you've gone through an accredited chiropractic curriculum (which is quite grueling) you would understand the reason why chiropractors are called doctors.

In the Latin sense, sure. In the North American culture, at least, you are a doctor if you hold a doctorate degree whether it be MD, PhD, OD, DC or otherwise. Putting Dr. in the title without an accredited degree would be deceiving, if not morally wrong.

[Euphoriiick]

^ not as grueling as an MD.

You tend to speak about things you have no idea about.

[molala]

You tend to speak about things you have no idea about.


You finally noticed it? Don't waste your time on trying to educate a jr. highschooler..

[licious]

Chiropractors, on the other hand, use to have partial OHIP coverage ($10 a visit) and therefore relied on additional fees to make an income. OHIP delisted chiropractic services in 2002 and as such chiropractors rely on insurance and patient out-of-pocket spending for income. Therefore patients lose out as no one wants to pay for health coverage given that Canadians have come to enjoy universal health care.
......

Unfortunately, honest health providers tend to be those with the most stable income on average. If Chiropractors were fully covered by OHIP then the chances your be given an honest answer would be large.

So it's okay for chiropractors to scam people because they wouldn't otherwise make enough money? That makes no sense. Maybe if they were actually providing a valuable service, OHIP would be covering it.

[rfdrfd]

Maybe if they were actually providing a valuable service, OHIP would be covering it.


Not necessarily true. For OHIP to cover something, it has to be scientifically sound and proven. (Also of course, its hard because that just eats more into the tax dollars).

Chinese Medicine or accupunture are both not covered by OHIP. But you can't say they aren't providing a valuable service. Millions of people have been cured by both, many many cases where Western Dr say someone is going to die from the Cancer, Chinese Medicine actually cured them. Documented and all. No fake stuff.

But just like Chiropractic treatments, you cannot scientifically measure Chinese Mecidine or their effects. Same with accupunture. Its mostly a feeling, not a drug reaction to a receptor in the body where you can measure blood, etc.

[Euphoriiick]

So it's okay for chiropractors to scam people because they wouldn't otherwise make enough money? That makes no sense. Maybe if they were actually providing a valuable service, OHIP would be covering it.


Like I said earlier service varies largely due to a wide spectrum of techniques, and unfortunately chiropractic care differs vastly which in turn leads to poor public perception. I got into chiropractic due to past personal experiences which were positive. I use to play rugby and would do a number on my neck and back. A few short visits to my mom's chiror cleared the pain instantly. It is valuable service to a degree, but the market has been flooded by too many chiropractors and no publicly funded system to sustain this profession (i.e. OHIP). I'm not saying it is ok to scam people, but the sad reality is that regardless of profession or occupation people are in the business of scamming people.

For example,

- Ticket scalpers with high priced tickets
- Politicians - nuff said
- Cable/Internet/cellphone providers commonly make mistakes on your bills in the hope that you con't notice and pay
- Lawyers - Nuff said
- Banking service charges
- Credit card high interest charges
- and on and on

There will always be someone who is looking to make a buck at your expense, and that is why we need to be savy shoppers (i.e. redflagdeals).

[NDman]

It is valuable service to a degree, but the market has been flooded by too many chiropractors and no publicly funded system to sustain this profession (i.e. OHIP).


It can't sustain that many chiropractors because the market is not there. Sure chiro gets a bum rep for the most part but they are not totally unjust, IMO. Physio was also delisted, not to mention optometry. One has to wonder why there are still so many more physio clinics than chiropractic clinics.

Bad apple is bad apple. You can't compare them to other professions just because they exist, especially most of your comparisons listed are far-fetched, if not invalid. It's that chiro appears to have a lot more of those "bad apples" than others in terms of practice ethics.

[sweeper]

You tend to speak about things you have no idea about.

LOL so basically ure saying Chiropractic School > Medical School in terms of difficulty :lol:

[Fanboy]

Chinese Medicine or accupunture are both not covered by OHIP. But you can't say they aren't providing a valuable service. Millions of people have been cured by both, many many cases where Western Dr say someone is going to die from the Cancer, Chinese Medicine actually cured them. Documented and all. No fake stuff.

I, for one, would like to see all these documented Chinese cancer cures.

[phomp]

Here's my question:
Has anyone who has ever been to see a chiropractor EVER been told that they didn't need anything "alligned" or "adjusted" because things were actually ok?
Yes I have..

My chiropractor never has said the words "aligned" or "adjusted". He sent me for X-rays on back and then took the results and showed me I have a very very minor case of scholoisis, which my family doctor confirmed. I come in only when I experience the pain and stiffness in my back. He has never said the pain or problem will go away, and that the treatments will temporarly ease the pain (which is not even that much) and loosen me up. After treatments I do feel much better in my lower back and legs and my when I am skating (I do play a lot of hockey) I can notice the difference. I mean, we can take my opinion about it but some of the other patients that go to him are members of the Argonauts, Mississauga Ice Dogs (when they were the Mississauga Ice Dogs.. they moved to Niagara), and the Mississauga Chargers (which some of my friends used to play on) which is a JR A hockey club. For the record here is the education listed on his website...

Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College

Honours Bachelor of Science degree in Kinesiology,
The University of Waterloo

I would not say he is a scam/ripoff

[phomp]

I, for one, would like to see all these documented Chinese cancer cures.

yes me to..

[licious]

Not necessarily true. For OHIP to cover something, it has to be scientifically sound and proven. (Also of course, its hard because that just eats more into the tax dollars).

Chinese Medicine or accupunture are both not covered by OHIP. But you can't say they aren't providing a valuable service. Millions of people have been cured by both, many many cases where Western Dr say someone is going to die from the Cancer, Chinese Medicine actually cured them. Documented and all. No fake stuff.

But just like Chiropractic treatments, you cannot scientifically measure Chinese Mecidine or their effects. Same with accupunture. Its mostly a feeling, not a drug reaction to a receptor in the body where you can measure blood, etc.

Well, obviously treatments have to be scientifically sound before the government pays for it. And I would argue that it would be rather easy to prove the efficacy of Chinese medicine and/or acupuncture. You see, we would conduct something called a randomized controlled trial consisting of two arms: the treatment group and a placebo group. The treatment group would receive acupuncture or Chinese medicine and the placebo group wouldn't receive any treatment. Then you would measure outcomes in each arm of the study and test for significance. See? Easyyyy...

Anyways, I'm biased because I'm a pharmacist and I'm not a huge fan of alternative medicines, but all of this "you can't really test it because it's a feeling" is non-sense IMO.

[licious]

There will always be someone who is looking to make a buck at your expense, and that is why we need to be savy shoppers (i.e. redflagdeals).

Haha, thanks for your concern, but I personally would never go to a chiropractor. :)

[molala]

It can't sustain that many chiropractors because the market is not there. Sure chiro gets a bum rep for the most part but they are not totally unjust, IMO. Physio was also delisted, not to mention optometry. One has to wonder why there are still so many more physio clinics than chiropractic clinics.

Bad apple is bad apple. You can't compare them to other professions just because they exist, especially most of your comparisons listed are far-fetched, if not invalid. It's that chiro appears to have a lot more of those "bad apples" than others in terms of practice ethics.

Physio was delisted but there is still physio in hospitals for people who really needed it. Community health agencies also provide physio to those who are entitle to.

[NDman]

It can't sustain that many chiropractors because the market is not there. Sure chiro gets a bum rep for the most part but they are not totally unjust, IMO. Physio was also delisted, not to mention optometry. One has to wonder why there are still so many more physio clinics than chiropractic clinics.

Physio was delisted but there is still physio in hospitals for people who really needed it. Community health agencies also provide physio to those who are entitle to.

My question was rhetoric...

[Euphoriiick]

It can't sustain that many chiropractors because the market is not there. Sure chiro gets a bum rep for the most part but they are not totally unjust, IMO. Physio was also delisted, not to mention optometry. One has to wonder why there are still so many more physio clinics than chiropractic clinics.

Bad apple is bad apple. You can't compare them to other professions just because they exist, especially most of your comparisons listed are far-fetched, if not invalid. It's that chiro appears to have a lot more of those "bad apples" than others in terms of practice ethics.

Well your welcome to your opinion, physio clinics exist because they get referrals from medical doctors, and remember that Doctors have an abundance of patients due to complete OHIP coverage. Medical doctors are know to due dubious practices themselves to supplement their income, such as irregular subscriptions of narcotics, faulty reports for legal fees are few examples.

[Euphoriiick]

LOL so basically ure saying Chiropractic School > Medical School in terms of difficulty :lol:

There both tough.

[sweeper]

Yes they are, but it is undisputed that Medical School is 1.) more difficult to get into than Chiropractic Program and 2.) considerably more difficult.

[Euphoriiick]

Well, obviously treatments have to be scientifically sound before the government pays for it. And I would argue that it would be rather easy to prove the efficacy of Chinese medicine and/or acupuncture. You see, we would conduct something called a randomized controlled trial consisting of two arms: the treatment group and a placebo group. The treatment group would receive acupuncture or Chinese medicine and the placebo group wouldn't receive any treatment. Then you would measure outcomes in each arm of the study and test for significance. See? Easyyyy...

Anyways, I'm biased because I'm a pharmacist and I'm not a huge fan of alternative medicines, but all of this "you can't really test it because it's a feeling" is non-sense IMO.

Well there are lots of medications that are prescribed and their mechanism of action is not known or questionable and thus are not scientifically sound. There prescribed because they work for the most part. Yet many medications have considerable adverse effect and the cost/benefit has to be considered on a case by case basis, which is not standardized or again not scientifically sound. The use of RCT trial is expensive and therefore not easily doable.

[Euphoriiick]

Yes they are, but it is undisputed that Medical School is 1.) more difficult to get into than Chiropractic Program and 2.) considerably more difficult.

Not really, there a medical school around the world that don't require much in terms of academics (and the same goes for chiro schools). Regardless, both are tough due to the volume of work required.

[NDman]

Well your welcome to your opinion, physio clinics exist because they get referrals from medical doctors, and remember that Doctors have an abundance of patients due to complete OHIP coverage.

That was basically my point. When one doesn't even need a referral yet most still opt for physio, there has got to be some reason for it; and that reason doesn't seem to work in chiropractics favour.

Medical doctors are know to due dubious practices themselves to supplement their income, such as irregular subscriptions of narcotics, faulty reports for legal fees are few examples.

Now you are just rambling with examples that are of little relevance to the original question posted by AnnaBanana (though the flip side of the argument was laid out clearly by phomp)

[Euphoriiick]

That was basically my point. When one doesn't even need a referral yet most still opt for physio, there has got to be some reason for it; and that reason doesn't seem to work in chiropractics favour.




Now you are just rambling with examples that are of little relevance to the original question posted by AnnaBanana (though the flip side of the argument was laid out clearly by phomp)
The reason is that doctors have always felt threatened by chiros because were primary contact physicians, and as such refer to physios because they are not allowed to diagnose and basically follow the doctor's orders on care.
I'm really not here to argue although some may argue because of ignorance, I'm a chiro, but try to be an unbiased one and only chose to provide further insight.

[sweeper]

Not really, there a medical school around the world that don't require much in terms of academics (and the same goes for chiro schools). Regardless, both are tough due to the volume of work required.

huh?! yes there are some medical schools (mainly in the Caribbeans) with lax admission requirements, but the medical schools in Canada and the US are far more strict on their admission requirements and notoriously difficult to gain admission.

CMCC Website: "The minimum academic requirement for admission consideration is a cumulative grade point average (GPA) of 2.50 on a 4.00 grade point average scale from at least three full years (15 full year courses or 90 credit hours) of undergraduate university study in Canada."

Random Canadian Medical School (McMaster University): MCAT, minimum 3.0 GPA on a 4 Point Scale converted to OMSAS, Interview.

I'm not saying Chiropractic School is a joke, but Medical School is clearly on a higher scale.

[Euphoriiick]

huh?! yes there are some medical schools (mainly in the Caribbeans) with lax admission requirements, but the medical schools in Canada and the US are far more strict on their admission requirements and notoriously difficult to gain admission.

CMCC Website: "The minimum academic requirement for admission consideration is a cumulative grade point average (GPA) of 2.50 on a 4.00 grade point average scale from at least three full years (15 full year courses or 90 credit hours) of undergraduate university study in Canada."

Random Canadian Medical School (McMaster University): MCAT, minimum 3.0 GPA on a 4 Point Scale converted to OMSAS, Interview.

I'm not saying Chiropractic School is a joke, but Medical School is clearly on a higher scale.

The requirement you noted was a bare minimum. Almost all accepted students have an undergraduate degree and admission averages from undergraduate training tend to be in the 80+ range, which is comparable to a 3.0 GPA on a 4 point scale. There is also a panel interview.

[sweeper]

An institution is usually judged based on the minimum requirements to enter that said institution. Many top notch universities have high minimum requirements, to seed out the "elite" so to say.

3.0/4.0 OMSAS is also a bare minimum, most applicants have a 95+ Admissions Average and still do not gain admission. (plus on an OMSAS scaled 3.0/4.0 usually turns up to be about 3.5-3.7)

Not going to bother arguing anymore, agree to disagree.

[Euphoriiick]

An institution is usually judged based on the minimum requirements to enter that said institution. Many top notch universities have high minimum requirements, to seed out the "elite" so to say.

3.0/4.0 OMSAS is also a bare minimum, most applicants have a 95+ Admissions Average and still do not gain admission. (plus on an OMSAS scaled 3.0/4.0 usually turns up to be about 3.5-3.7)

Not going to bother arguing anymore, agree to disagree.

I agree to disagree! ;)

[JAC]

Your logic is distorted, the term doctor is a "respect customarily accorded to those who have received a doctorate. It comes to English from Old French and is the agent form of the Latin verb docere, "to teach"." (wikipedia).

My analogy was intended to be humorous, underscoring the inappropriateness of referring to a chiro as a doctor in any medical sense.

[bsab2006]

Most GP's and Chiro's treat the symptoms of pain and poor health without addressing the cause.

[phomp]

The degree of difficulty between the two makes 0 difference on how my back feels...
I believe there are scams out there, probably more often than not they are but to say all of them are is just stupid. Just like anything else you do your research and try and find a good one.

See my earlier post about my Chiropractor, as he has quite an extensive education and has some high profile clients... and from personal experience, I do get quite the relief in my lower back after a visit. Not once has he said he can "cure" my back or anything of that nature but helps to relieve the pain... which it does.

[darincm]

Chiro's can help I guess. Just keep them away from your neck. I had my neck adjusted about 7 years ago & something wasn't quite right. Since then I have had neck pain with some episodes so bad I end up in a fetal position on the floor wanting to put a knife in my neck

be careful

[Mui_Mui]

In my own personal opinion, I would never go to a chiropractor.
I would much rather go to a physiotherapist for help.
I just don't trust someone cracking my neck or spine in ways that can be dangerous.

Case in point:
Alberta woman launches a lawsuit against chiropractic practice after the neck manipulation caused a tear in one of the arteries to her brain, causing a massive stroke leaving her paralyzed for life.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080613/chiro_lawsuit_080613/20080613/

This is why I stay away from chiropractors.