The UFC Opened My Eyes To Over-Hyped Kung-Fu Grand Masters

[Kommander_KornFlakes]

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When I was a kid (pre 1993) I used to respect all these old chinese "grand masters" and 6th-grade karate black belts but after seeing all their students getting their butts whooped in the UFC I now have as much respect for all those "Kung-Fu Masters" as I have for dog poop in the grass at High Park :o

Brazilian streetfighter Royce Gracie challenged all those korean and chinese "grand masters" to prove their stuff with him in the Octagon and they refused. If they were so good they certainly would had accepted the challenge and beat this mouthy hoodlum to a pulp no? I'm chinese but I now have no respect for all those "masters" from the orient, where are all those Shaolin Monk masters in UFC fights? I have never seen one, they are too chicken to show up.

Even over-hyped mainstream boxers like Mike Tyson were challenged to a fight by Royce Gracie and he refused, proving once again that all the "greats" we grew up respecting are full of hot air when pushes comes to shoves.

Does anyone agrees here with me?

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[ullyeus]

"over hyped" is a bit harsh, what hype are you referring to?

[Kommander_KornFlakes]

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Over-hyped in the sense that we are made to believe they are the toughest of all fighters and the ultimate, when in fact some bar cowboy can whoop them in the UFC.

Here's a real video of real Shaolin Monks strutting their super-human abilities:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=730_1174163540

Can those feats be enough to beat up Americans and Brazilian fighters in the UFC?

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[deep]

I don't know why you'd compare the two, really. Shaolin Kung Fu today doesn't have a whole lot to do with traditional values and discipline, nor does it really focus on the domination of another martial artist in a closed arena combat. As that is the ONLY focus of the UFC fighter, they would have a huge advantage over the average Shaolin "monk" (who probably isn't a monk at all, at this point in time) in a cage match.

This guy says it pretty well: http://batgwa.com/squat/article.php?articleId=11....er, right until the end when he claims the "Buddha Palm" as portrayed in Kung Fu Hustle really exists. Maybe a slight exagerration.

[CSR]

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When I was a kid (pre 1993) I used to respect all these old chinese "grand masters" and 6th-grade karate black belts but after seeing all their students getting their butts whooped in the UFC I now have as much respect for all those "Kung-Fu Masters" as I have for dog poop in the grass at High Park :o

Brazilian streetfighter Royce Gracie challenged all those korean and chinese "grand masters" to prove their stuff with him in the Octagon and they refused. If they were so good they certainly would had accepted the challenge and beat this mouthy hoodlum to a pulp no? I'm chinese but I now have no respect for all those "masters" from the orient, where are all those Shaolin Monk masters in UFC fights? I have never seen one, they are too chicken to show up.

Even over-hyped mainstream boxers like Mike Tyson were challenged to a fight by Royce Gracie and he refused, proving once again that all the "greats" we grew up respecting are full of hot air when pushes comes to shoves.

Does anyone agrees here with me?

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And all this time I thought you were not.

[ullyeus]

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Over-hyped in the sense that we are made to believe they are the toughest of all fighters and the ultimate, when in fact some bar cowboy can whoop them in the UFC.

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I've never thought that, nor do I know anyone who has.

[Peckerwood]

I have seen plenty of flaky "masters" in my day...but I have also seen some seriously dangerous people that you would never want to put into the "octagon". The prime problem with the octagon is that there are rules...no gouging...no biting...etc etc.

Drive your thumbs into some guy's eyes and let's see how well he can fight on the ground or in any form for that matter. Go Mikey on his ass and tear off an ear with your teeth and see if his mental structure is still intact.

No weapons

See how well any of these MMA UFC guys do on the streets against some thug with a knife.

The problem is in the focus of the training. They train for a ring...a controlled environment where everyone walks away after shaking hands etc. You can't even remotely compare that with anything you would ever see on the street.

As for comparing them to flaky masters...well that is a different story altogether. Anybody sticking to tradition(blind worship of all things antiquated) and failing to observe body physics will fail miserably in any fight.

Techniques evolve...and so too must defenses to said techniques.

Jersey any MMA UFC guy and I bet he would be severely compromised in a fight...unless he trained on it of course ;)

[felixdd]

i'm not an expert but have talked to people who do Chinese martial arts.

First of all, some of Chinese Wushu and Shaolin stuff are more acrobatic and art than actual fighting. Those would be ill-suited to the octagon.

Secondly, UFC fighters train with UFC, and its rules, in mind. Martial artists train for a much broader application. A lot of moves would be deemed illegal by UFC standards.

Thirdly, refusal to fight does not signify weakness. In fact I would say it signifies strength. Most (if not all) martial arts that takes itself seriously stresses discipline over rage, and that the best way to win a fight is to not have fought at all.

[CSR]

i'm not an expert but have talked to people who do Chinese martial arts.

First of all, some of Chinese Wushu and Shaolin stuff are more acrobatic and art than actual fighting. Those would be ill-suited to the octagon.

Secondly, UFC fighters train with UFC, and its rules, in mind. Martial artists train for a much broader application. A lot of moves would be deemed illegal by UFC standards.

Thirdly, refusal to fight does not signify weakness. In fact I would say it signifies strength. Most (if not all) martial arts that takes itself seriously stresses discipline over rage, and that the best way to win a fight is to not have fought at all.

So to win by intimidation? Like nuclear bombs?

[OceanDrop]

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Can those feats be enough to beat up Americans and Brazilian fighters in the UFC?-

Come on, give some respect to the Canadians too! With the exception of Starnes...lol

Honestly, I think it's just a difference in style. MMA is such a dominant sport because of all the different aspects it encompasses.

I think that the Lesnar/Mir fight points that out nicely...here you've got a big brute of a guy with dominant wrestling skills, that gets tapped by a kneebar, which is something that's relatively simple to defend against if you're familiar with bjj.

[felixdd]

So to win by intimidation? Like nuclear bombs?

Yes. That and the threat of having a kamehameha rammed up your....

[sexpuppet6000]

You are pretty ignorant man.

Shaolin martial arts is not used to beat another guy until he don't know what whats. It isn't used in a friggin cage, nor to sell protien shakes, or sell seats in a la casino.



So if there was a gun fight to the death. Would professional sharp shooters be considered chicken sh|t for not wanting to compete?

jezzz.

[hoopsandyoyo]

its like a football player challenging a rugby player to football.

not the same.

ps. I love how you point out your race; as if it strenghtens your point of view.

[CSR]

You are pretty ignorant man.

Shaolin martial arts is not used to beat another guy until he don't know what whats. It isn't used in a friggin cage, nor to sell protien shakes, or sell seats in a la casino.



So if there was a gun fight to the death. Would professional sharp shooters be considered chicken sh|t for not wanting to compete?

jezzz.

It's used to sell hollywood movies :D

[vrus]

its like a football player challenging a rugby player to football.

not the same.

ps. I love how you point out your race; as if it strenghtens your point of view.

the rugby player would still win anyways :cheesygri

[TapemanPL]

how could you call royce gracie a brazilian street fighter?

[trini]

Are you aware that the practice of those arts do not endorse what UFC represents hence the reason they have endured time.
What will you do when ufc is no more?

[gman]

the rugby player would still win anyways :cheesygri

Under NFL rules? ;)

[kdotc]

those martial artistists like monks and shaolin students born and raised in temples don't train to fight in other countries

[toalan]

UFC fighters are a bunch of p*ssies, my 400lb homeboy with his 9mm challenged them to a fight and they all refused.

look at those guys who are TUF, most of them are completely self centered jackasses. They cry like a girl when they lose the fight. Where is their inner strength, where is their discipline? Look at all the smack talk that happens between fighters, it is pretty discusting, where is the respect? Look at babaluu who would not let go of a choke after the bell rang.

[Peckerwood]

It is called "Theatre"...which is exactly what you should expect of entertainment.

[board123]

Shaolin is not, and was never, intended as a tool to beat the crap out of someone else on a ring on TV. It's not about fighting. It's a way of life.

[danns]

UFC is mma aka mixed martial arts. People do have a background in other martial arts and some of them probably have trained in Kung Fu and Karate. GSP has a Karate background for example.

Its just that some martial arts work better in the ring than other martial arts. Ie. You dont use Krav Maga in the octagon but its very effective in the street.

And why the gay are people mentioning weapons to this thread? Thats comparing apples and oranges now.

Martial arts such as wrestling, muay thai and BJJ are generally effective in the ring. Each fighting style have their place and I would respect them all. In movies, Kung-fi is cool, BJJ would probably be a bit boring...

[Peckerwood]

And why the gay are people mentioning weapons to this thread? Thats comparing apples and oranges now.
Because they exist in the real world.

[danns]

Because they exist in the real world.

I was referring to guy who mentioned using a gun...obviously no kicks or punches can be effective for a long range weapon, unless your within arms reach of the gunman, or Dhalsim from street fighter.

Even fighting a crowd, I cant name any martial arts that would be effective against a group of people against one person. And no dont say you will use your Kata.

[Peckerwood]

I was referring to guy who mentioned using a gun...obviously no kicks or punches can be effective for a long range weapon, unless your within arms reach of the gunman, or Dhalsim from street fighter.
Dhalsim...I lol'd

And there are some serious MA out there that use practical disarming techs to people with guns(pistol and rifle).
Even fighting a crowd, I cant name any martial arts that would be effective against a group of people against one person. And no dont say you will use your Kata.
There are forms out there that prime their methods purely upon evasion and redirection. Some are obviously more effective than others, and like any MA there will always be factions and clubs that do it much better than others and are inherently more serious about their study in such regards.

As for Kata, they are strictly for learning basics. Weapons removal and crowd evasion are not basic techs.

[Peckerwood]

Dhalsim on the loose...watch out :lol:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b84/saint-michael_1/renders/dhalsim3.png

[stillmatic11]

First of all, I do think there is some value in learning Traditional Martial Arts (TMA) for certain people such as those who do not have an actual interest in learning to fight. It is good in a sense that it enforces discipline and is a decent form of exercise. However, they are not effective in an actual combat situation. My problem is with the so called Grand Masters who run these dojos and make absurd claims like how they have death strikes too deadly to demonstrate, can fight 10 people at once and etc etc. The reasoning behind these claims is just so their students do not question them, I mean how can you demonstrate a death touch without killing someone right? TMA dojo's nowadays are all about making money and it's become a quite profitable money making venture at that.

Another problem with TMA is the people taking it hardly ever spar. Ask anyone that fights and they'll tell you the only way to get better at fighting is to actually fight. Really, how are you supposed to be prepared for a real life fighting situation when you have zero practice of it in class. A little knowledge is just enough to hurt you. They give out black belts to 10 year olds and basically to anyone who is willing to pay tuition. You're basically buying your belt as opposed to actually earning it.

Someone mentioned in this thread that mma fighters train specifically to rules. This is true obviously, but has no bearing on how an mma fighter would do in a street fight. An mma fighter would wipe the floor with just about any so called street fighter or traditional martial artist, given that it's a 1 on 1 fight with no weapons. Techniques like eye gouging, groin strikes, while effective on an untrained fighter are not so much against someone that fights for a living. I've seen fights with people with minimal BJJ experience against blackbelts in TKD and Karate and the BJJ guys absolutely destroyed them even when allowed techniques such as groin strikes. It's not hard to take someone down to the ground and tap them when they have zero experience defending a takedown and submission. It's also pretty damn difficult to gouge an eye or strike to the groin when you're fighting someone that is defending themselves and not standing there like a demonstration dummy.

Hypothetical situations such as fighting someone with a weapon or fighting multiple people all have a simple solution, which is to run and avoid the situation entirely. Anyone that tells you differently is mentally ********.

[Peckerwood]

Rather than go through the entire thing I will simply quote the meaty parts

However, they(TMA) are not effective in an actual combat situation.
This is simply because their form of combat was used at a point in history when it was relevant. The techniques they employed were against techniques that existed back then.

They have failed to evolve...hence now they are historians.
TMA dojo's nowadays are all about making money and it's become a quite profitable money making venture at that... You're basically buying your belt as opposed to actually earning it.
Take Your Dough(TKD)...Martial Arts-by-Numbers

I prefer to call them Wall Art...because while they are inside they look pretty and classical...but the moment you bring them outside into the light of day they begin to fade.
Someone mentioned in this thread that mma fighters train specifically to rules. This is true obviously, but has no bearing on how an mma fighter would do in a street fight.
"Nobody ever rises to meet the occasion, rather they instead devolve to their lowest form of memorized training"
Al "Butch" Schneider

If these guys do not train on dealing with such potential situations then they won't have the methods of dealing with them trained into their body-mind(instinct).
An mma fighter would wipe the floor with just about any so called street fighter or traditional martial artist
Two words...Kimbo Slice
given that it's a 1 on 1 fight with no weapons.
As of course all street fights and robberies are just that...fair in every regard. Because muggers are honorable people with fairness and equality of chance in mind for all their victims.

:rolleyes: <-- I cannot emphasize this enough. First you talk about how great an MMA guy would be against a street fight...then employ the use of rules in the very same SF.

Newsflash...there are no rules on the street...everything counts.
Techniques like eye gouging, groin strikes, while effective on an untrained fighter are not so much against someone that fights for a living.
There is a major difference between fighting for a living and fighting to stay alive.
It's not hard to take someone down to the ground(with BJJ) and tap them when they have zero experience defending a takedown and submission.
No BJJ or MMA guy would ever in his right mind go to the ground in a street fight...cause nobody fights one on one. Go to the ground on the street and you will get bootfukked by his buddies.
It's also pretty damn difficult to gouge an eye or strike to the groin when you're fighting someone that is defending themselves and not standing there like a demonstration dummy.
Demonstration dummy lol. Obviously you are stretching things to your slant for descriptive reasons.

The only time I ever see the demodummy, is with beginners, whereby they learn basics. Then we ramp up the resistance as they get the hang of each and every different tech.

Everybody does this...even MMA instructors use training bags and willing partners in the same fashion. But also like everyone else, as the level of experience goes up then so too does the resistance.
Hypothetical situations such as fighting someone with a weapon or fighting multiple people all have a simple solution, which is to run and avoid the situation entirely. Anyone that tells you differently is mentally ********.
Which is the obvious solution to the untrained...but not everyone can run...and giving-in statistically still results in a 50% injury rate, after the mugging has already been committed.

It is obvious that you haven't thought too far ahead...if you are surrounded by a crowd, the question comes to mind where are you going to run to?

And you obviously don't have any children, because if you did then you would have already thought about the fact that their little legs cannot run too damn far, or nearly as fast as you can.

Robbing me in the presence of children that are under my direct care, and that guy is in some serious trouble.

Think "sow bear"

And that in a nutshell is why I think that MMA and BJJ are entertainment. I have never had anyone talk about BJJ in a serious manner when considering many of the students we counsel.

[stillmatic11]

Your post is way to difficult to quote, but anyways I have no idea what you're getting at. I mean while you're at it, why not just stay strapped and and carry a 9 at all times? Carry some nade's just in case. The whole point is if you get yourself into a streetfight situation, then you're putting yourself in a bad situation in the first place. If you fight against multiple people, you're likely going to get a beatdown unless you're fighting against people who have never fought before. You're not Bruce Lee and this isn't a movie either.

It's funny you use Kimbo to support your argument in calling him a street fighter who beats MMA guys, but his street fights that have been shown were all 1 on 1 fights as well. But anyways, Kimbo has not beaten anyone of significance, he's been fed cans so far. He's also training MMA full-time with Bas Rutten, so it's not like he just walks in there with no clue on anything, he's green but learning.

I've heard that in a real life anything goes crap to explain why their TMA is better than MMA all the time. I've been told countless times by some hotshot TMA blackbelt that I'm lucky he couldn't use death strikes or I'd be in trouble when they're getting tapped with ease. You're using hypothetical situations to support your arguments, while I've seen first hand TMA black belts get destroyed by BJJ newbies.

Really, I'd like to know what school you train at where they teach you to try and fend off someone robbing you when armed. I'm sure risking your life over a couple bucks is worth it, even more so when you have children with you.

[robertalan]

Carry some nade's just in case.

Nades? Anyone who believes the term "nades" is a cool short form, needs to grow some nads. ;)


Shaolin martial arts is not used to beat another guy until he don't know what whats. It isn't used in a friggin cage, nor to sell protien shakes, or sell seats in a la casino.
Thirdly, refusal to fight does not signify weakness. In fact I would say it signifies strength. Most (if not all) martial arts that takes itself seriously stresses discipline over rage, and that the best way to win a fight is to not have fought at all.
These two posts are the wisest, and come closest to answering the OP's post.

[danfromwaterloo]

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When I was a kid (pre 1993) I used to respect all these old chinese "grand masters" and 6th-grade karate black belts but after seeing all their students getting their butts whooped in the UFC I now have as much respect for all those "Kung-Fu Masters" as I have for dog poop in the grass at High Park :o

Brazilian streetfighter Royce Gracie challenged all those korean and chinese "grand masters" to prove their stuff with him in the Octagon and they refused. If they were so good they certainly would had accepted the challenge and beat this mouthy hoodlum to a pulp no? I'm chinese but I now have no respect for all those "masters" from the orient, where are all those Shaolin Monk masters in UFC fights? I have never seen one, they are too chicken to show up.

Even over-hyped mainstream boxers like Mike Tyson were challenged to a fight by Royce Gracie and he refused, proving once again that all the "greats" we grew up respecting are full of hot air when pushes comes to shoves.

Does anyone agrees here with me?

-

Here's a few counterpoints:

-Every martial arts class I've ever taken, the very first lesson, the master always says "If you can run, run. If you can escape a fight, escape. Fighting is always the last course." Masters teach defense. Fights for the sake of fighting are not defensive - by nature, you have to be offensive in order to win.

-I think a lot of those fighters (ie. Tyson, various 9th degree blackbelts, etc) feel they don't need to prove themselves any longer as they've already done so. Kinda like you or me calling out to GSP "Hey you, why don't you come down here and fight me to prove how tough you are?" - in his mind, he doesn't have to fight you; he's got nothing to prove to himself.

-Throwing down a challenge in an environment you're accustomed to is kinda like cheating. The rules of the sport are such that people in the UFC are used to using them to their advantage, whereas Kung Fu masters are not used to any rules.

As an offensive martial art, mixed martial arts takes all the best forms from all the different styles and combines it into one very lethal art. Basically, most MMA nowadays is a cross between Sambo, Muay Thai, Boxing, BJJ, and Wrestling. But how good is their defense? If a pair of big guys jumped them in the street, how would they do? Hard to say - as mentioned in a previous linked article, it's basically like asking who would win in a fight, Batman or Superman.

[vladislav]

Here's a few counterpoints:

-Every martial arts class I've ever taken, the very first lesson, the master always says "If you can run, run. If you can escape a fight, escape. Fighting is always the last course." Masters teach defense. Fights for the sake of fighting are not defensive - by nature, you have to be offensive in order to win.
-I think a lot of those fighters (ie. Tyson, various 9th degree blackbelts, etc) feel they don't need to prove themselves any longer as they've already done so. Kinda like you or me calling out to GSP "Hey you, why don't you come down here and fight me to prove how tough you are?" - in his mind, he doesn't have to fight you; he's got nothing to prove to himself.


That's very true.


-Throwing down a challenge in an environment you're accustomed to is kinda like cheating. The rules of the sport are such that people in the UFC are used to using them to their advantage, whereas Kung Fu masters are not used to any rules.


There are more rules in kung-fu than in MMA (well UFC is a real sport now and all that but old UCF/Pride/etc had a lot less rules).


As an offensive martial art, mixed martial arts takes all the best forms from all the different styles and combines it into one very lethal art. Basically, most MMA nowadays is a cross between Sambo, Muay Thai, Boxing, BJJ, and Wrestling. But how good is their defense? If a pair of big guys jumped them in the street, how would they do? Hard to say - as mentioned in a previous linked article, it's basically like asking who would win in a fight, Batman or Superman.

Their defense is as good as their offense. A pair of big guys got nothing on a MMA fighter. Bas Rutten can explain things in a bit more detail to you :) MMA is evolution of fighting, it's one of the few fighting 'styles' that still evolves.

If you want to know who will beat up who just watch first few UFCs (the days way before a couple of years ago when it became a fad). You will see some crazy matchups. Once you see kung-fu, taekwondo, boxing, etc there you will understand how the sport evolved into what we have now.

Now Batman vs Superman I would love to see :)

[Pyro]

^ watch out for mk vs dc then lol
im still surprised anyone ever bothers to post in kommander kornflakes threads, and validates them into actual discussion
its either trolling or he really is an ignorant redneck
reading a kommander kornflake post is alot like watching fox news

[thelefteyeguy]

Thirdly, refusal to fight does not signify weakness. In fact I would say it signifies strength. Most (if not all) martial arts that takes itself seriously stresses discipline over rage, and that the best way to win a fight is to not have fought at all.

+5

the first thing you learn is to not use what you learn unless it's for self defence ;)

[Kommander_KornFlakes]

My problem is with the so called Grand Masters who run these dojos and make absurd claims like how they have death strikes too deadly to demonstrate, can fight 10 people at once and etc etc. The reasoning behind these claims is just so their students do not question them, I mean how can you demonstrate a death touch without killing someone right? TMA dojo's nowadays are all about making money and it's become a quite profitable money making venture at that.



Yes, all these masters and their "death holds" are pure hogwash, I haven't seen any of them in the Octagon, and their students (karate blackbelts) always get pummelled by bar cowboys. Just 15 years ago I thought boxers and karate dudes were bad azz and invincible, now they are a laughing stock.



Are you aware that the practice of those ancient arts do not endorse what UFC represents hence the reason they have endured time.


Yeah, they don't endorse the UFC because they will get their butts whoooped and their lies exposed. Get me a korean or chinese martial arts master in the Octagon and I will respect him and his discipline, but I don't think we will ever see that.

Our kids and all of us should worship and respect Brazilian jiu-jitsu streetfighters and American bar cowboys, these are the guys that have galls and have strutted their stuff in the UFC.

Why should I listen (or admire) to a Kung-Fu master when he doesn't even have the courage to fight some mouthy, run-of-the-mill Brazilian fighter?

[deep]

Yeah, they don't endorse the UFC because they will get their butts whoooped and their lies exposed. Get me a korean or chinese martial arts master in the Octagon and I will respect him and his discipline, but I don't think we will ever see that.
Sad to think that THAT would be required to earn your respect. Show me a UFC fighter who still has the discipline of a martial arts master at the age of 80 and I might respect that.

You still haven't figured out that the goals of shaolin monks and other TMArtists are NOT THE SAME AS THOSE OF THE UFC. They are not here to impress you, nor are they here to sell Tap Out shorts. They are not here for television ratings, to get chicks (ok, maybe) or endorsement contracts.

Smarten up, man.

[DualSoul]

Smarten up, man.

Quite a tall order for the Kommander methinks.

[danns]

-
When I was a kid (pre 1993) I used to respect all these old chinese "grand masters" and 6th-grade karate black belts but after seeing all their students getting their butts whooped in the UFC I now have as much respect for all those "Kung-Fu Masters" as I have for dog poop in the grass at High Park :o

Brazilian streetfighter Royce Gracie challenged all those korean and chinese "grand masters" to prove their stuff with him in the Octagon and they refused. If they were so good they certainly would had accepted the challenge and beat this mouthy hoodlum to a pulp no? I'm chinese but I now have no respect for all those "masters" from the orient, where are all those Shaolin Monk masters in UFC fights? I have never seen one, they are too chicken to show up.

Even over-hyped mainstream boxers like Mike Tyson were challenged to a fight by Royce Gracie and he refused, proving once again that all the "greats" we grew up respecting are full of hot air when pushes comes to shoves.

Does anyone agrees here with me?

-


I just realized that part. I would have to say that this has to do with the logistics and politics behind the fight. Ie. Who will be the promoter, how to train, money etc...

[rems]

-
When I was a kid (pre 1993) I used to respect all these old chinese "grand masters" and 6th-grade karate black belts but after seeing all their students getting their butts whooped in the UFC I now have as much respect for all those "Kung-Fu Masters" as I have for dog poop in the grass at High Park :o

Brazilian streetfighter Royce Gracie challenged all those korean and chinese "grand masters" to prove their stuff with him in the Octagon and they refused. If they were so good they certainly would had accepted the challenge and beat this mouthy hoodlum to a pulp no? I'm chinese but I now have no respect for all those "masters" from the orient, where are all those Shaolin Monk masters in UFC fights? I have never seen one, they are too chicken to show up.

Even over-hyped mainstream boxers like Mike Tyson were challenged to a fight by Royce Gracie and he refused, proving once again that all the "greats" we grew up respecting are full of hot air when pushes comes to shoves.

Does anyone agrees here with me?

-

Nope...

Tyson is a BOXER. He trained to punch and avoid punches. If Gracie wants a boxing match with Tyson then I'm pretty sure he'll get knocked out. But by inviting him to a fight, he's pretty much inviting him to a BJJ match cuz it's not that hard to grab a hold of a guy during a fight and start working his trained art. So he's basically wants to fight an untrained guy in BJJ...sounds fair ...:rolleyes:

[ricoboxing]

-
Even over-hyped mainstream boxers like Mike Tyson were challenged to a fight by Royce Gracie and he refused, proving once again that all the "greats" we grew up respecting are full of hot air when pushes comes to shoves.

dude mike tyson or almost any boxer would get his butt kicked as soon as he got taken to the ground, just like any jiu jitsu guy would get ko'ed if he tried to trade punches with a boxer.

basically you just proved you know absolutely nothing about combat sports, and the only fighting you should ever think of doing better involve your PSP.

[deep]

In the tiger stripe trunks, Kommander_Kornflakes, and in the camo trunks, common sense.

http://my.break.com/content/view.aspx?ContentID=505060

[ricoboxing]

In the tiger stripe trunks, Kommander_Kornflakes, and in the camo trunks, common sense.

http://my.break.com/content/view.aspx?ContentID=505060

Common Sense W KO1

[stillmatic11]

Here's a few counterpoints:

-Every martial arts class I've ever taken, the very first lesson, the master always says "If you can run, run. If you can escape a fight, escape. Fighting is always the last course." Masters teach defense. Fights for the sake of fighting are not defensive - by nature, you have to be offensive in order to win.

-I think a lot of those fighters (ie. Tyson, various 9th degree blackbelts, etc) feel they don't need to prove themselves any longer as they've already done so. Kinda like you or me calling out to GSP "Hey you, why don't you come down here and fight me to prove how tough you are?" - in his mind, he doesn't have to fight you; he's got nothing to prove to himself.

-Throwing down a challenge in an environment you're accustomed to is kinda like cheating. The rules of the sport are such that people in the UFC are used to using them to their advantage, whereas Kung Fu masters are not used to any rules.

As an offensive martial art, mixed martial arts takes all the best forms from all the different styles and combines it into one very lethal art. Basically, most MMA nowadays is a cross between Sambo, Muay Thai, Boxing, BJJ, and Wrestling. But how good is their defense? If a pair of big guys jumped them in the street, how would they do? Hard to say - as mentioned in a previous linked article, it's basically like asking who would win in a fight, Batman or Superman.

See this tends to be the typical thinking of TMA. A good offense is the best defense there is. Those fancy defensive moves don't actually work in a real fight. It's like I said, how can you expect to defend against an attack when you never even spar. In my opinion, learning this bit of knowledge and carrying it around thinking nobody can mess with you does more harm than good.

Kung Fu masters fight no holds barred? Oh really, how well did they do when the first UFC's came out? They got absolutely mauled by grapplers and wrestlers.

I seriously laugh my ass off at the technique a lot of these black belts have, I've actually had some of them do flying kicks and karate chops against me, I just step to the side and clock them. Absolutely rediculous and useless in a fight. I've also had some friends that got up to black belt levels in TKD and Karate and they all realize the same thing eventually. They're useless for self defense and a money drain. For several of them, it took a beat down in a fight to know better. There's just better options out there if you want to learn to fight.

All this no rules fighting is BS. Do you really believe they fight that way? It's like I said, they say this so they don't have to actually prove they can fight to their students. It's smart on their part, because I've seen some master's from dojo's get absolutely destroyed sparring and it ruins their reputation and mystique they might have had before.

[Chigu]

2 words:

BRUCE LEE.

end of discussion/

[stillmatic11]

Nope...

Tyson is a BOXER. He trained to punch and avoid punches. If Gracie wants a boxing match with Tyson then I'm pretty sure he'll get knocked out. But by inviting him to a fight, he's pretty much inviting him to a BJJ match cuz it's not that hard to grab a hold of a guy during a fight and start working his trained art. So he's basically wants to fight an untrained guy in BJJ...sounds fair ...:rolleyes:

While, what you say is correct. There is still people out there that feel boxers would knock everyone out and that they'd knock a BJJ guy out before they even got close to them. Some boxers even call MMA fighters glorified street fighters that couldn't make it in boxing, which is just ******** really. Boxing and MMA are just 2 different things and people should learn to be able to appreciate both for what they are. It's just ignorance more than anything else, the only chance a boxer would have is a lucky punch, it's highly unlikely for someone untrained in takedown defense and submissions to win a fight against someone that is.

[ullyeus]

Nope...

Tyson is a BOXER. He trained to punch and avoid punches. If Gracie wants a boxing match with Tyson then I'm pretty sure he'll get knocked out. But by inviting him to a fight, he's pretty much inviting him to a BJJ match cuz it's not that hard to grab a hold of a guy during a fight and start working his trained art. So he's basically wants to fight an untrained guy in BJJ...sounds fair ...:rolleyes:

Ecellent point.

I would have loved for Tyson to say "sure", put on some gloves and follow my rules and let's see who wins.

[AirBosh]

Here is a real kung fu.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=S19VsB7__v0

[ullyeus]

-I think a lot of those fighters (ie. Tyson, various 9th degree blackbelts, etc) feel they don't need to prove themselves any longer as they've already done so. Kinda like you or me calling out to GSP "Hey you, why don't you come down here and fight me to prove how tough you are?" - in his mind, he doesn't have to fight you; he's got nothing to prove to himself.



Good points, I am confident I could kick K_K's ass all over the place in a fight...but if he challenged me to one I likely wouldn't take him up on it simply because he isn't worth my time.

[Kommander_KornFlakes]

dude mike tyson or almost any boxer would get his butt kicked as soon as he got taken to the ground, just like any jiu jitsu guy would get ko'ed if he tried to trade punches with a boxer.



So you basically agree and prove my point that a UFC fighter would kick Mike Tyson's butt if they ever met in a park to fight. No holds barred, Mike using his outdated punching techniques and Royce Gracie using his own stuff.

[goneFishing]

2 words:

BRUCE LEE.

end of discussion/

Bruce Lee is an obvious example but I will have to choose Fedor Emelianenko.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i0iZcLIrTQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp4o1vzQvik

[Kommander_KornFlakes]

2 words:

BRUCE LEE.

end of discussion/

I'm sure he would get his butt kicked eventually, maybe in the 3rd round of a UFC fight. Don't kid yourself, Bruce Lee was big in a time when everybody was ignorant in hand-combat, now with all this crop of hundreds of MMA fighters he would have gotten whooped.

All of yesterday's grand masters would get their butts kicked in today's modern UFC bouts, end of discussion.

[rems]

So you basically agree and prove my point that a UFC fighter would kick Mike Tyson's butt if they ever met in a park to fight. No holds barred, Mike using his outdated punching techniques and Royce Gracie using his own stuff.

So a guy with a gun and Gracie meet in a park...No holds barred...Gracie using his outdated BJJ and a guy using his modern pistol. Who would win?

and boxing techniques aren't outdated...that's a widely used tool by MMA fighters today. I think the whole point of MMA is to show that not 1 type of MA is the best...you need a combination of the best aspects of each art

[qster]

To the original OP... you watch too much television for your own good.

How stupid to you think Shaolin Monks are? To go on national TV to showcase the true power of Shaolin Kung Fu and other ancient arts. A grand master would have a field day with any of the MMA fighters.

MMA has too many rules and restrictions (ie, can't leave both feet off the ground, must wear fighting gloves, can't palm the ear, etc...)

Do you need a visual display to show you how a SKF master will do to the Gracie clan and their BJJ???
Heck even a Tai Chi master would no problems with a BBJ fighter.

The Monks do not want to let out their secrets....and are trained to avoid conflict as KF is an exercise of the mind, body and spirit. Not for entertainment value.

[Montague]

I think anybody practicing the Indiana Jones school of defense would win ;) :

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc

[Kommander_KornFlakes]

Ecellent point.

I would have loved for Tyson to say "sure", put on some gloves and follow my rules and let's see who wins.

Dude, the truth of the matter is that the superior guy is the one that beats the hell out of the other one, it doesn't matter if one is a boxer and another one a MMA fighter. The fact that Mike Tyson would get creamed by Royce Gracie just proves that his discipline is worthless and incompetitive. There is no excuse and it's ******** to ask for the other guy to abide by Mike Tyson's boxing rules, they are both free to do whatever they want.

The final point is that boxing SUCKS and is worthless in a real fight. It might work with nerds who can't fight but not against MMA fighters.

[felixdd]

...who would win in a fight, Batman or Superman.

That's a no-brainer. Superman obviously

[rems]

Dude, the truth of the matter is that the superior guy is the one that beats the hell out of the other one, it doesn't matter if one is a boxer and another one a MMA fighter. The fact that Mike Tyson would get creamed by Royce Gracie just proves that his discipline is worthless and incompetitive. There is no excuse and it's ******** to ask for the other guy to abide by Mike Tyson's boxing rules, they are both free to do whatever they want.

The final point is that boxing SUCKS and is worthless in a real fight. It might work with nerds who can't fight but not against MMA fighters.

So Chuck Lidell only fought nerds?

[stillmatic11]

So you basically agree and prove my point that a UFC fighter would kick Mike Tyson's butt if they ever met in a park to fight. No holds barred, Mike using his outdated punching techniques and Royce Gracie using his own stuff.

Dude, you're just getting out of hand now. Outdated punching techniques? no striker in MMA has striking on the level of a championship level boxer. While I respect what Royce has done for MMA, he is certainly overrated by the average fan. Assuming Tyson was in his prime and you gave Tyson some time to train his takedown defense and sub defense, I would certainly give him a chance to beat Royce in a fight. Royce never had great takedowns and Tyson is much bigger and stronger and his hands are infinite times better. It would not be unrealistic for Tyson to be able to avoid Royce takedown's and not get dragged into his guard and eventually end up knocking Royce out.

[qster]

That's a no-brainer. Superman obviously

Batman... he's got a tiny chunk of Kryptonite in his utility belt waiting for the right time to unleash it on Superman.

Remember...Superman's weakness is Kryptonite, where as the Dark Knight is not supposed to have any weakness...supposedly.

[rems]

Dude, you're just getting out of hand now. Outdated punching techniques? no striker in MMA has striking on the level of a championship level boxer. While I respect what Royce has done for MMA, he is certainly overrated by the average fan. Assuming Tyson was in his prime and you gave Tyson some time to train his takedown defense and sub defense, I would certainly give him a chance to beat Royce in a fight. Royce never had great takedowns and Tyson is much bigger and stronger and his hands are infinite times better. It would not be unrealistic for Tyson to be able to avoid Royce takedown's and not get dragged into his guard and eventually end up knocking Royce out.

Yea the reason Royce was so dominant in the early days of UFC is cuz no one had seen BJJ before. So sure while you were pounding him in the face, he was setting you up for a kamura, armbar, etc...People didn't know what was coming.

[stillmatic11]

Dude, the truth of the matter is that the superior guy is the one that beats the hell out of the other one, it doesn't matter if one is a boxer and another one a MMA fighter. The fact that Mike Tyson would get creamed by Royce Gracie just proves that his discipline is worthless and incompetitive. There is no excuse and it's ******** to ask for the other guy to abide by Mike Tyson's boxing rules, they are both free to do whatever they want.

The final point is that boxing SUCKS and is worthless in a real fight. It might work with nerds who can't fight but not against MMA fighters.

Wow, I don't even know how to respond. Just stop, you're making yourself look stupid. Boxing is a huge and integral part of MMA. If you have no striking, you're in bad shape for any fight against anyone.

[UrbanPoet]

To the original OP... you watch too much television for your own good.

How stupid to you think Shaolin Monks are? To go on national TV to showcase the true power of Shaolin Kung Fu and other ancient arts. A grand master would have a field day with any of the MMA fighters.

MMA has too many rules and restrictions (ie, can't leave both feet off the ground, must wear fighting gloves, can't palm the ear, etc...)

Do you need a visual display to show you how a SKF master will do to the Gracie clan and their BJJ???
Heck even a Tai Chi master would no problems with a BBJ fighter.

The Monks do not want to let out their secrets....and are trained to avoid conflict as KF is an exercise of the mind, body and spirit. Not for entertainment value.

um... NO.
Different types of 'fighters' train for different types of things.

[felixdd]

Batman... he's got a tiny chunk of Kryptonite in his utility belt waiting for the right time to unleash it on Superman.

Remember...Superman's weakness is Kryptonite, where as the Dark Knight is not supposed to have any weakness...supposedly.

Batman's just a whiny adult who didn't grow up, has mental issues, and a hunk of money from inheritance

There I said it. Let the flame war begin :cheesygri

[ricoboxing]

Batman's just a whiny adult who didn't grow up, has mental issues, and a hunk of money from inheritance

There I said it. Let the flame war begin :cheesygri
isnt batman gay? i thought he was lovers with Robin? maybe he can come to Ont and get a sex change.

[deep]

This thread has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous to the ridiculouserestlyness.

K_K, guess where you fit in there?

[stillmatic11]

To the original OP... you watch too much television for your own good.

How stupid to you think Shaolin Monks are? To go on national TV to showcase the true power of Shaolin Kung Fu and other ancient arts. A grand master would have a field day with any of the MMA fighters.

MMA has too many rules and restrictions (ie, can't leave both feet off the ground, must wear fighting gloves, can't palm the ear, etc...)

Do you need a visual display to show you how a SKF master will do to the Gracie clan and their BJJ???
Heck even a Tai Chi master would no problems with a BBJ fighter.

The Monks do not want to let out their secrets....and are trained to avoid conflict as KF is an exercise of the mind, body and spirit. Not for entertainment value.

I hope you're being sarcastic, but I don't think you are. You know what, I'm fine with people not fighting, but don't make claims either that you have no intention of backing up. At least with Bruce Lee, he would challenge people to an actual fight and he put JKD right out there for people to see. Part of MMA does come from what Bruce Lee did, so he is a pioneer of sorts for MMA.

I always find it funny when people make these outlandish claims with no proof behind it. It's always some kind of secret they can't let out or people will steal it so that's the reason they do not fight or show their skill. I have no problem with people training a certain martial art, there are positives to every martial art. I do have a problem when the people training it claim it has some deadly art and the best out there and won't go out there and prove it. Talk is cheap.

[qster]

I always find it funny when people make these outlandish claims with no proof behind it. It's always some kind of secret they can't let out or people will steal it so that's the reason they do not fight or show their skill. I have no problem with people training a certain martial art, there are positives to every martial art. I do have a problem when the people training it claim it has some deadly art and the best out there and won't go out there and prove it. Talk is cheap.

Newsflash... they all claim their art to be the best in the business as that is how they draw suckers into the door of their dojo, gym or training facilities.

If you recall, Bruce Lee never claimed Kung Fu to be the best. His claim was that it would only take him under a minute to put a man to the floor.

Kung Fu teaches a student the art of defence tactics and to wait and expose the attacker and strike once to subdue the opponent. All this while not displaying your arsenal of defence and attack techniques.

If you want proof, they have some Tai Chi exhibits during Chinese New Years. Go up and see if you can defend against a 80 year old Tai Chi master who will come at you at regular motion and send you 6-10 feet back with one motion of the wrist, not a striking blow.

[robertalan]

UFC is the new WWE, right? A little less fake looking, but the same idea.

[ullyeus]

Dude, the truth of the matter is that the superior guy is the one that beats the hell out of the other one, it doesn't matter if one is a boxer and another one a MMA fighter. The fact that Mike Tyson would get creamed by Royce Gracie just proves that his discipline is worthless and incompetitive. There is no excuse and it's ******** to ask for the other guy to abide by Mike Tyson's boxing rules, they are both free to do whatever they want.

The final point is that boxing SUCKS and is worthless in a real fight. It might work with nerds who can't fight but not against MMA fighters.

So by that definition...if I beat your dad up with a baseball bat while he was sleeping I would be superior?

And by that definition...all martial arts and training in the world are useless since they can easily be overcome by my beating a sleeping guy in the head with a bat?

You are embarrassing yourself again and don't even realize it :(

[ullyeus]

UFC is the new WWE, right? A little less fake looking, but the same idea.

not sure if you are trolling but no, its not the new WWE.

[gmark2000]

Everyone go out and rent Van Damme's Bloodsport to see which martial art rules.

http://jadedviewer.com/uploaded_images/spinkickmain-728342.jpg

Remember the black guy who jumped around like a frog? OWNED!

[stillmatic11]

Newsflash... they all claim their art to be the best in the business as that is how they draw suckers into the door of their dojo, gym or training facilities.

If you recall, Bruce Lee never claimed Kung Fu to be the best. His claim was that it would only take him under a minute to put a man to the floor.

Kung Fu teaches a student the art of defence tactics and to wait and expose the attacker and strike once to subdue the opponent. All this while not displaying your arsenal of defence and attack techniques.

If you want proof, they have some Tai Chi exhibits during Chinese New Years. Go up and see if you can defend against a 80 year old Tai Chi master who will come at you at regular motion and send you 6-10 feet back with one motion of the wrist, not a striking blow.

I have no idea what you're getting at. You agree with me that TMA's make BS claims, yet you're saying Kung Fu and Tai Chi are legit? Now, don't get me wrong, I can appreciate some aspects of Kung Fu as some of the feats some of the practitioners accomplish are quite phenomenal, but how functional is it in a combat situation? I would say it is ineffective.

They are good at the things that they practice and condition themselves to do some pretty awesome stuff, but this is no different than how a Muay Thai fighter needs to condition their shins and BJJ guys improve their flexibility. Just because someone can take a spear in the chest doesn't mean they're some amazing fighter, the 2 have no correlation.

[stillmatic11]

Yea the reason Royce was so dominant in the early days of UFC is cuz no one had seen BJJ before. So sure while you were pounding him in the face, he was setting you up for a kamura, armbar, etc...People didn't know what was coming.

Yeah at the same time, the UFC was more or less a marketing tool by Rorion Gracie to promote Gracie Jiu Jitsu. The top fighters of that time were fighting in Japan. It did work pretty effectively though as BJJ proved to be the most effective martial art out there, given that nobody that competed in the UFC at the time really cross trained in different fighting styles.

[OceanDrop]

UFC is the new WWE, right? A little less fake looking, but the same idea.

I actually lol'd at that statement.

[goJays]

people who think UFC is fake, obviously don't watch it. UFC is wicked because u see fighters and not just masters of a certain martial art. Just like JKD, u cannot be bound to one discipline to be successful.

a lil off topic, but if i were to build a fighter, i would want:
1. grappling/wrestling
2. brazilian jiu jitsu
3. mauy thai

but thats just my opinion.

furthermore, martial arts is almost thrown out the window when you are on the ground.

[chrza]

Dude, the truth of the matter is that the superior guy is the one that beats the hell out of the other one, it doesn't matter if one is a boxer and another one a MMA fighter. The fact that Mike Tyson would get creamed by Royce Gracie just proves that his discipline is worthless and incompetitive. There is no excuse and it's ******** to ask for the other guy to abide by Mike Tyson's boxing rules, they are both free to do whatever they want.

The final point is that boxing SUCKS and is worthless in a real fight. It might work with nerds who can't fight but not against MMA fighters.

What's a real fight? And if there are no rules, one could argue that the common street thug is the toughest because he pop caps in Bas Rutten's a$$ like no one's business!

They're different sports with different rules that have different ways of achieving excellence in them. Your comparison is pointless. You run your mouth about how boxing sucks, but if you stepped in the ring with Mike Tyson (even now), he'd most definitely would beat the s*** out of you. So what position are you in to say that it sucks or that it's for p*ssies? There very obviously is a skill to it, hence why some people excel in it and some don't

Same thing with any martial art. I'm making an assumption here (albeit a safe one), but I really don't think that you wouldn't last against anyone in their respective martial art.

[danns]

people who think UFC is fake, obviously don't watch it. UFC is wicked because u see fighters and not just masters of a certain martial art. Just like JKD, u cannot be bound to one discipline to be successful.

a lil off topic, but if i were to build a fighter, i would want:
1. grappling/wrestling
2. brazilian jiu jitsu
3. mauy thai

but thats just my opinion.

furthermore, martial arts is almost thrown out the window when you are on the ground.

Thats what grappling/BJJ is for

[stillmatic11]

Oh and this is an example of what happens when you put up a MMA fighter against a Kung Fu fighter in a no holds barred fight. He went pretty light on him too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_taQXTem_X4

[robertalan]

UFC is the new WWE, right? A little less fake looking, but the same idea.

not sure if you are trolling but no, its not the new WWE.

I actually lol'd at that statement.

Sure, it's not strictly identical, but it certainly shares the same heritage and profit motivation - it's just amped up for the new jaded generation.

[ullyeus]

Sure, it's not strictly identical, but it certainly shares the same heritage and profit motivation - it's just amped up for the new jaded generation.

It's real fighting vs fake fighting, I'd say those are totally different things, not just "amped" up.

[deep]

The motivation of the promoters is certainly the same (profit through entertainment) but it has more in common with boxing or Roman Gladiators than WWE.

No fight in the WWE has ever been thrown, no "wrestler" has ever been bribed to take a fall....because the outcome is scripted, and people only get hurt by accident.

[Sohkeung]

Batman... he's got a tiny chunk of Kryptonite in his utility belt waiting for the right time to unleash it on Superman.

Remember...Superman's weakness is Kryptonite, where as the Dark Knight is not supposed to have any weakness...supposedly.

Thats not true. The Dark Knight's power is in his money. If he was low on cash flow he wouldn't be able to make all those great tools he has.

[rems]

The motivation of the promoters is certainly the same (profit through entertainment) but it has more in common with boxing or Roman Gladiators than WWE.

No fight in the WWE has ever been thrown, no "wrestler" has ever been bribed to take a fall....because the outcome is scripted, and people only get hurt by accident.

Well UFC is trying to be like the WWE by faking conflict between fighters. Take the recent GSP vs Serra fight. They were showing them talking smack about each other and everything. At the end of the fight, GSP told the crowd that Serra was a good guy and that he only said those things about him to build hype around the fight.

[ullyeus]

Well UFC is trying to be like the WWE by faking conflict between fighters. Take the recent GSP vs Serra fight. They were showing them talking smack about each other and everything. At the end of the fight, GSP told the crowd that Serra was a good guy and that he only said those things about him to build hype around the fight.

Every sport that has any kind of competition (which is all of them) does the same thing, **** even chess players do that. This isn't unique to fighting and the WWE didn't invent and patent it.

[deep]

Well UFC is trying to be like the WWE by faking conflict between fighters...
No, they weren't "trying to be the WWE"....they were trying to increase interest in their product. Like every other company in the history of mankind. Entertainment based on conflict has to play up conflict, get it?

[rems]

No, they weren't "trying to be the WWE"....they were trying to increase interest in their product. Like every other company in the history of mankind. Entertainment based on conflict has to play up conflict, get it?

Well I was simply stating the similarities between the WWE and the UFC. And the WWE has perfected the fake conflict between "fighters". I never said they were trying to "be the WWE". I said they were "trying to be like the WWE by "faking conflict ". Get it?

[Spray]

I go on vacation, and come back to more of the same.

God I missed this place and KK's threads :D

[ullyeus]

oops

[ullyeus]

Well I was simply stating the similarities between the WWE and the UFC. And the WWE has perfected the fake conflict between "fighters". I never said they were trying to "be the WWE". I said they were "trying to be like the WWE by "faking conflict ". Get it?

It still isn't relevant and doesn't make sense..but sure we get it...

I don't understand why you mention the WWE instead of every other sport or competition in the world.

[deep]

Well I was simply stating the similarities between the WWE and the UFC. And the WWE has perfected the fake conflict between "fighters". I never said they were trying to "be the WWE". I said they were "trying to be like the WWE by "faking conflict ". Get it?

I mis-typed when I left out the word "like". However, it is correct either way. They were NOT trying to be "like" the WWE. You may as well say they were trying to be "like" Proctor and Gamble.

And no, the WWE has not perfected the fake conflict angle, nor were they the first to do it. Why the HELL do you keep dragging them into this?

[rems]

It still isn't relevant and doesn't make sense..but sure we get it...

I don't understand why you mention the WWE instead of every other sport or competition in the world.

Well for one, someone compared the WWE to UFC. Two, WWE is a "sport" which heavily relies on these conflicts. Boxing, hockey, etc..., their draw isn't cuz one guy has a beef with another guy...it's the actual sport itself.

So again, WWE has mastered the art of sucking in viewers through scripted conflict. But UFC is trying to gain a larger viewership by creating hype (like many other sports) with these supposed discord. And it's not hard to imagine that the UFC is targeting WWE fans because it has a huge following and its product is similar to theirs, along with boxing.

[rems]

I mis-typed when I left out the word "like". However, it is correct either way. They were NOT trying to be "like" the WWE. You may as well say they were trying to be "like" Proctor and Gamble.

And no, the WWE has not perfected the fake conflict angle, nor were they the first to do it. Why the HELL do you keep dragging them into this?

So you're saying that the UFC creating scripted "bad blood" between the two fighters of the main card of a Pay Per View event is nothing like WWE?

[stillmatic11]

So you're saying that the UFC creating scripted "bad blood" between the two fighters of the main card of a Pay Per View event is nothing like WWE?

I think you just don't understand fighting. After a fight, you tend to squash things because theres really nothing as pure as fighting out there. It's where you can find yourself as a person and what you're made out out of. There's nobody out there to save you and it's just you by yourself in there. The UFC is also after all a sport and what sportsman do after any competition is they congratulate each other and wish them well. Pre-Fight trash talk is expected, but post-fight is the time to be classy.

The GSP-Serra fight wasn't even a grudge match, there were a couple things said as far as GSP's excuses for why he didn't perform well that night and Serra took it as a slight to him and felt disrespected.

Now this upcoming fight with Sherk and BJ Penn is a legitimate match with bad blood as both fighters do not like each other over the steroids issue. After the fight, I'm sure they will squash it. They might never be friends, but the bad blood will be gone.

[fboybcb]

Dude, the truth of the matter is that the superior guy is the one that beats the hell out of the other one, it doesn't matter if one is a boxer and another one a MMA fighter. The fact that Mike Tyson would get creamed by Royce Gracie just proves that his discipline is worthless and incompetitive. There is no excuse and it's ******** to ask for the other guy to abide by Mike Tyson's boxing rules, they are both free to do whatever they want.

The final point is that boxing SUCKS and is worthless in a real fight. It might work with nerds who can't fight but not against MMA fighters.

That's pretty funny, where are you getting your facts from? You are only stating your own opinion so I really cannot see any evidence supporting your argument. This thread should be closed because there is no proven evidence which is better. If you believe UFC can kick Kung-fu masters ass than good for you. Thread closed.

[rems]

I think you just don't understand fighting. After a fight, you tend to squash things because theres really nothing as pure as fighting out there. It's where you can find yourself as a person and what you're made out out of. There's nobody out there to save you and it's just you by yourself in there. The UFC is also after all a sport and what sportsman do after any competition is they congratulate each other and wish them well. Pre-Fight trash talk is expected, but post-fight is the time to be classy.

The GSP-Serra fight wasn't even a grudge match, there were a couple things said as far as GSP's excuses for why he didn't perform well that night and Serra took it as a slight to him and felt disrespected.

Now this upcoming fight with Sherk and BJ Penn is a legitimate match with bad blood as both fighters do not like each other over the steroids issue. After the fight, I'm sure they will squash it. They might never be friends, but the bad blood will be gone.

and that's the whole point...UFC is supposed to be just about the fight. Two guys in the ring and see who's better. By hyping it up through trash talk (when you generally like the other guy) it takes away from the fight and turns it WWE-style where the storyline accounts for the hype of the fight instead of the actual fight.

I'm only comparing them to the WWE in that sense...the marketing/promotional side of it. But I guess you have to do all that to target the casual fan since who doesn't like to watch two guys who "hate" each other go at it? And that's what WWE was built on. Two guys pretending to hate each other, battle it out in the squared circle.

To me, I would have just as equally been interested in the GSP/Serra fight if they were saying nice things about each other pre-fight....but where's the fun in that, right? Talk of disrespect and hate is so much more entertaining...If they didn't have to pretend to have some sort of quarrel, then there wouldn't be a need to compare them to WWE. If they have legitimate beef with each other, then by all means bash each other pre-fight all you want.

[danns]

I watch UFC to learn moves and to see how ones skillset is compared with another fighters skillset.
I guess the added beef hyped up by UFC is just icing. Unless people love the icing more than the cake.

[ullyeus]

and that's the whole point...UFC is supposed to be just about the fight. Two guys in the ring and see who's better. By hyping it up through trash talk (when you generally like the other guy) it takes away from the fight and turns it WWE-style where the storyline accounts for the hype of the fight instead of the actual fight.

I'm only comparing them to the WWE in that sense...the marketing/promotional side of it. But I guess you have to do all that to target the casual fan since who doesn't like to watch two guys who "hate" each other go at it? And that's what WWE was built on. Two guys pretending to hate each other, battle it out in the squared circle.

To me, I would have just as equally been interested in the GSP/Serra fight if they were saying nice things about each other pre-fight....but where's the fun in that, right? Talk of disrespect and hate is so much more entertaining...If they didn't have to pretend to have some sort of quarrel, then there wouldn't be a need to compare them to WWE. If they have legitimate beef with each other, then by all means bash each other pre-fight all you want.

I guess we just move in different circles of sorts, I don't watch a fight due to fake beefs and never thought that the GSP/Serra fight even had a lot of that. These guys are huge, testosterone fueled adrenaline pumping fighters...obviously there is going to be some tension...sometimes it's done on purpose I am certain to get the other guy on tilt.

Do they do any of that for us, the audience? I wouldn't say so and don't really envision WWE fans and UFC fans as being interchangeable. If you go to any local boxing ring you will find two people talking smack about each other and then get in the ring and beat each other up...then go for a drink together after...

I really don't think the audience comes into play here.

Are you saying that the UFC fighters are coached and instructed to pretend they hate each other so the audience gets more "into it"?

[rems]

I guess we just move in different circles of sorts, I don't watch a fight due to fake beefs and never thought that the GSP/Serra fight even had a lot of that. These guys are huge, testosterone fueled adrenaline pumping fighters...obviously there is going to be some tension...sometimes it's done on purpose I am certain to get the other guy on tilt.

Do they do any of that for us, the audience? I wouldn't say so and don't really envision WWE fans and UFC fans as being interchangeable. If you go to any local boxing ring you will find two people talking smack about each other and then get in the ring and beat each other up...then go for a drink together after...

I really don't think the audience comes into play here.

Are you saying that the UFC fighters are coached and instructed to pretend they hate each other so the audience gets more "into it"?

Yea I watch the fights to see the fight. I just hate the fake animosity cuz it makes me feel like I'm watching WWE.

To me that's what it seems like. Why would two guys who generally like each other and are well liked by others (except by Matt Hughes) all of a sudden start talking smack about each other? The clips before the fight, it was just a repetition of GSP saying "Matt Serra crossed the line". If they really hated each other you would think GSP would have much worse things to say than that.

[stillmatic11]

and that's the whole point...UFC is supposed to be just about the fight. Two guys in the ring and see who's better. By hyping it up through trash talk (when you generally like the other guy) it takes away from the fight and turns it WWE-style where the storyline accounts for the hype of the fight instead of the actual fight.

I'm only comparing them to the WWE in that sense...the marketing/promotional side of it. But I guess you have to do all that to target the casual fan since who doesn't like to watch two guys who "hate" each other go at it? And that's what WWE was built on. Two guys pretending to hate each other, battle it out in the squared circle.

To me, I would have just as equally been interested in the GSP/Serra fight if they were saying nice things about each other pre-fight....but where's the fun in that, right? Talk of disrespect and hate is so much more entertaining...If they didn't have to pretend to have some sort of quarrel, then there wouldn't be a need to compare them to WWE. If they have legitimate beef with each other, then by all means bash each other pre-fight all you want.

Well I don't see how it was fake either way. Some things were just said, they fought and it was over with. They didn't hype it up any more than what it was. They didn't say they hated each other. Serra just felt disrespected by GSP's comments that were made after their first fight and rightfully so. Any hyping of a fight is done by the fighters themselves, some choose to do it and others choose not to.

Not every UFC event is built on bad blood either. It just happens to be more interesting when the 2 fighters fighting each other don't like each other. There's still way more fights where fighters don't even talk smack and are respectful towards each other though, so really I'm not understanding where you're getting this idea from.

[stillmatic11]

Yea I watch the fights to see the fight. I just hate the fake animosity cuz it makes me feel like I'm watching WWE.

To me that's what it seems like. Why would two guys who generally like each other and are well liked by others (except by Matt Hughes) all of a sudden start talking smack about each other? The clips before the fight, it was just a repetition of GSP saying "Matt Serra crossed the line". If they really hated each other you would think GSP would have much worse things to say than that.

I don't think you even know what was said before the fight. This is brief recap of what happened. GSP after the first fight congratulated Matt Serra and said he was the better man that night and Serra likewise said GSP will be back even better. Then after a few months, GSP said he had mental issues and some injuries and that he wouldn't have taken the fight if it were against Matt Hughes, but decided to take the fight anyways because it was against Matt Serra. Serra took this as disrespect and he called GSP out on it and called him a frenchy. GSP obviously didn't like being called that and felt Serra crossed the line with that comment. That's basically all it was.

Regardless, in order to get in the ring and physically harm another person, some fighters need to feel some kind of hatred toward their oponent to motivate them. Some fighters will talk smack just to psyche themselves up. Fighting is a huge mental thing and getting your head right is the most important thing a fighter can do.

[rems]

Well I don't see how it was fake either way. Some things were just said, they fought and it was over with. They didn't hype it up any more than what it was. They didn't say they hated each other. Serra just felt disrespected by GSP's comments that were made after their first fight and rightfully so. Any hyping of a fight is done by the fighters themselves, some choose to do it and others choose not to.

Not every UFC event is built on bad blood either. It just happens to be more interesting when the 2 fighters fighting each other don't like each other. There's still way more fights where fighters don't even talk smack and are respectful towards each other though, so really I'm not understanding where you're getting this idea from.

Because that GSP/Serra fight was promoted like those two absolutely hated each other. Why would you keep showing "Matt Serra crossed the line" over and over again if you weren't trying to promote that? Did they constantly show clips of GSP saying "Matt Serra is a good guy and I respect him"?

Of course they can't keep promoting fights this way. But why do you think there were 3 Ortiz vs Shamrock fights when everyone knew after the first fight that Ken was done. Ken was a horrible coach on TUF and didn't really want to train those guys but he became a coach anyways so he could fight Tito. And Dana knew people would watch the hate between those two.

If you can't sell a good fight, build hype around it. I think everyone knew GSP wouldn't let Serra get a punch in again and would dominate (which he did by controlling him on the ground where Serra didnt have a punchers chance)

[rems]

I don't think you even know what was said before the fight. This is brief recap of what happened. GSP after the first fight congratulated Matt Serra and said he was the better man that night and Serra likewise said GSP will be back even better. Then after a few months, GSP said he had mental issues and some injuries and that he wouldn't have taken the fight if it were against Matt Hughes, but decided to take the fight anyways because it was against Matt Serra. Serra took this as disrespect and he called GSP out on it and called him a frenchy. GSP obviously didn't like being called that and felt Serra crossed the line with that comment. That's basically all it was.

Regardless, in order to get in the ring and physically harm another person, some fighters need to feel some kind of hatred toward their oponent to motivate them. Some fighters will talk smack just to psyche themselves up. Fighting is a huge mental thing and getting your head right is the most important thing a fighter can do.

and all that info was revealed after much poking and prodding at GSP. I mean if you keep pushing a guy, I'm sure you can get something taken out of context and use it against the guy. And if Frenchy was such a huge insult, then why did they seem to genuinely like each other after the fight instead of being just sportsmanly like Tito was to Ken after his beatings?

[15-20_God]

isn't this stupidity akin to IBM's Deep Blue challenging Asimo to a game of Counterstrike to determine who is better at lawn darts?

[stillmatic11]

and all that info was revealed after much poking and prodding at GSP. I mean if you keep pushing a guy, I'm sure you can get something taken out of context and use it against the guy. And if Frenchy was such a huge insult, then why did they seem to genuinely like each other after the fight instead of being just sportsmanly like Tito was to Ken after his beatings?

It wasn't the UFC interviewing GSP, it was a radio station. GSP even admitted he shouldn't have used it as an excuse, but he felt pressure from other people to explain why he fought the way he did.

They were friendly after the fight, because they were friends before the first fight. As I said before, fighting someone typically squashes any beef you might have.

You're basically grasping at straws. The UFC did not put those quotes in the fighters mouths, they said it themselves. Are they going to use it to promote the fight? Of course, it only makes sense to do so and create some more hype for a fight. They're in the money making business. What are they supposed to do, not do any commercials and air anything the fighters say about their opponents?

[DBOi]

-
When I was a kid (pre 1993) I used to respect all these old chinese "grand masters" and 6th-grade karate black belts but after seeing all their students getting their butts whooped in the UFC I now have as much respect for all those "Kung-Fu Masters" as I have for dog poop in the grass at High Park :o

Brazilian streetfighter Royce Gracie challenged all those korean and chinese "grand masters" to prove their stuff with him in the Octagon and they refused. If they were so good they certainly would had accepted the challenge and beat this mouthy hoodlum to a pulp no? I'm chinese but I now have no respect for all those "masters" from the orient, where are all those Shaolin Monk masters in UFC fights? I have never seen one, they are too chicken to show up.

Even over-hyped mainstream boxers like Mike Tyson were challenged to a fight by Royce Gracie and he refused, proving once again that all the "greats" we grew up respecting are full of hot air when pushes comes to shoves.

Does anyone agrees here with me?

-

I don't really understand Y u are so angry.........
your arguments are pretty flawed as well

[rems]

It wasn't the UFC interviewing GSP, it was a radio station. GSP even admitted he shouldn't have used it as an excuse, but he felt pressure from other people to explain why he fought the way he did.

They were friendly after the fight, because they were friends before the first fight. As I said before, fighting someone typically squashes any beef you might have.

You're basically grasping at straws. The UFC did not put those quotes in the fighters mouths, they said it themselves. Are they going to use it to promote the fight? Of course, it only makes sense to do so and create some more hype for a fight. They're in the money making business. What are they supposed to do, not do any commercials and air anything the fighters say about their opponents?

If fighting squashes beef, why were there 3 Ortiz/Shamrock fights??!

dont you think that Serra being offended by GSP giving excuses is grasping at straws?!?

And both guys admitted that they just talked $#!+ about each other to hype up the fight...Now I don't know GSP personally but he seems like a humble guy who wouldn't normally do that. Even in his rematch with Hughes, he was saying last time he was scared to look him in the eyes and that he was his idol. I'm pretty sure there were some coaxing by Dana...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3282/2468737691_0fa7a330fc.jpg?v=0

[ullyeus]

Because that GSP/Serra fight was promoted like those two absolutely hated each other.

I didn't see that.

[stillmatic11]

If fighting squashes beef, why were there 3 Ortiz/Shamrock fights??!

dont you think that Serra being offended by GSP giving excuses is drawing straws?!?

And both guys admitted that they just talked $#!+ about each other to hype up the fight...Now I don't know GSP personally but he seems like a humble guy who wouldn't normally do that. Even in his rematch with Hughes, he was saying last time he was scared to look him in the eyes and that he was his idol. I'm pretty sure there were some coaxing by Dana...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3282/2468737691_0fa7a330fc.jpg?v=0

Not everyone is going to get along with one another. Tito is just one of those guys that talks a ton of crap to every one of his opponents and he has his post-fight T-shirt as well.

Serra was insulted because GSP said he would have not taken the fight against someone like Matt Hughes, but took the fight against Serra, because he basically felt he could win the fight easily. I think anyone would take that as an insult.

I don't recall ever hearing about GSP and Matt Serra saying they talked smack to hype the fight up. Fighters do admit to doing that at times though, but what makes you think it's the UFC that tells them to do that?

You've basically shown no proof that the UFC operates anything like the WWE in producing fake scripted rivalries.

[CheapScotsman]

isn't this stupidity akin to IBM's Deep Blue challenging Asimo to a game of Counterstrike to determine who is better at lawn darts?so .... was there much pre-combat hype? ... who won? ... did they kiss and makeup and are best buddies now?

[robertalan]

Not everyone is going to get along with one another. Tito is just one of those guys that talks a ton of crap to every one of his opponents and he has his post-fight T-shirt as well.

Serra was insulted because GSP said he would have not taken the fight against someone like Matt Hughes, but took the fight against Serra, because he basically felt he could win the fight easily. I think anyone would take that as an insult.

I don't recall ever hearing about GSP and Matt Serra saying they talked smack to hype the fight up. Fighters do admit to doing that at times though, but what makes you think it's the UFC that tells them to do that?

You've basically shown no proof that the UFC operates anything like the WWE in producing fake scripted rivalries.
That was counterproductive. Your post above breathlessly reporting the soap opera-ish antics does everything to convince me that it is like the WWE. It sounds exactly like how the WWE fans used to describe the rivalries. Not that there's anything wrong with that - if you and a million other fans find it entertaining - all power to you!

[rems]

Not everyone is going to get along with one another. Tito is just one of those guys that talks a ton of crap to every one of his opponents and he has his post-fight T-shirt as well.

Serra was insulted because GSP said he would have not taken the fight against someone like Matt Hughes, but took the fight against Serra, because he basically felt he could win the fight easily. I think anyone would take that as an insult.

I don't recall ever hearing about GSP and Matt Serra saying they talked smack to hype the fight up. Fighters do admit to doing that at times though, but what makes you think it's the UFC that tells them to do that?

You've basically shown no proof that the UFC operates anything like the WWE in producing fake scripted rivalries.

So GSP said he wouldn't have taken the fight against Serra so soon if it was against someone like Matt Hughes? But when Serra got injured after the TUF 6 and couldn't fight, wasn't it GSP who stepped in short notice and fought Hughes?!? This leads me to believe that this was all part of the hype. And he said this right after the match...u know when they interview the guy in the octagon after winning...

[stillmatic11]

So GSP said he wouldn't have taken the fight against Serra so soon if it was against someone like Matt Hughes? But when Serra got injured after the TUF 6 and couldn't fight, wasn't it GSP who stepped in short notice and fought Hughes?!? This leads me to believe that this was all part of the hype. And he said this right after the match...u know when they interview the guy in the octagon after winning...

GSP said he had injuries and mental issues (cousin's death) going into the first Serra fight and he says he would have pulled out of the fight if it were against someone like Matt Hughes, but he felt Serra was an easy fight, so he fought anyways. He obviously felt sharp when he stepped in to fight Hughes, so they were totally different situations.

Regardless, I don't see the big deal of fighters hyping up their fights with trash talk. It happens in boxing, happens in other sports as well. 2 random people fighting is not interesting to the casual fan, 2 random people who have bad blood and a storyline makes things a lot more interesting to the casual fan.

As a fan of the sport, I want to see the best fighting the best. If there's a grudge between the 2 fighters, it just makes things more interesting. Either way, I just want to see good fights.

[stillmatic11]

That was counterproductive. Your post above breathlessly reporting the soap opera-ish antics does everything to convince me that it is like the WWE. It sounds exactly like how the WWE fans used to describe the rivalries. Not that there's anything wrong with that - if you and a million other fans find it entertaining - all power to you!

I have no need for it personally, because I'm all about the fights. If there's genuine bad blood, it makes the fight more interesting. It's just an insult particularly to fighters in general that you're saying the UFC is like the WWE. One is scripted entertainment, while the other is a combat sport where the outcome is not pre-determined. As someone that trains, it annoys me when something so rediculous is said.