VivienM's Great Big Unified Car Advice Thread

[VivienM]

Instead of me randomly asking questions in random threads, how about I make my very own, seeking-car-advice thread? :)

Here are the criteria:
- no econoboxes. No dressed up econoboxes by another name (Acura CSX, this means you).
- under $500/month, including taxes at the Ontario rate, for a 48 month lease with $0-500 due at delivery
- something tuned for comfort more than handling (I like W body Buicks, remember?)
- automatic climate control
- leather would be nice, as would an upgraded sound system
- safety features like traction/stability control would be good
- available with a light-coloured interior and, in that order, blue, red, or white exterior
- no particular preferences as to engine. Bigger is of course better, but anything that fits in the budget is good...
- all brands are acceptable. Domestics are fine, unless they suck (Chrysler Sebring/Dodge Avenger, this means you). Honda and Volkswagens are frowned upon, but can be considered anyways...
- something that's as little of an "old"/"family" man's car as possible. Not looking for a 'chick magnet', but something that doesn't drive away women younger than 65 would be nice...
- probably looking at 4 door sedans, though other body styles are acceptable too for as long as there's reasonable trunk space (Nissan Altima coupe, that means you).

So far, I've test driven the following:
- Saturn Aura XR. Feels horrible. Ruled out.
- Ford Fusion SEL V6. Great value. Feels good on the road. Difficult to get an 08 at this point. Dubious brand image.
- Nissan Altima 2.5SL (well, I drove the S, not SL). The leading choice right now, but a few things make me nervous. And I'd love the coupe but the trunk is too small...

Any suggestions?

[frogger]

No "family man's" cars but all you've driven so far are family man cars? Just drive what you want and stop worrying so much about what others perceive. Anyone worthwhile isn't going to judge you based on your car.

[VivienM]

No "family man's" cars but all you've driven so far are family man cars?

I said "as little of a family man's car as possible". Given that I don't want an econobox, and can't afford entry-level sport luxury (A4, G35, etc.), this creates a bit of a problem as you've correctly pointed out.

It seems to be that the more... youthful... vehicles, image-wise, are either econoboxes or sport luxury...

[Vickel]

Subaru legacy 2.5i

[frogger]

I said "as little of a family man's car as possible". Given that I don't want an econobox, and can't afford entry-level sport luxury (A4, G35, etc.), this creates a bit of a problem as you've correctly pointed out.

It seems to be that the more... youthful... vehicles, image-wise, are either econoboxes or sport luxury...

Not sure what to suggest to you.. If you really want something with better than average appeal to the twenty-something crowd, yet don't want a smaller vehicle, you might have to lease a 2 year old car with some warranty left on it instead.

Just get one you want, you'll be spending $800+ a month running this thing if your monthly ends up ~$500, thats a mortgage payment, so you've obviously got a nice job lined up and want to reward yourself.

[careener]

Mazda 6

[B0000rt]

Malibu LTZ?

[VivienM]

Not sure what to suggest to you.. If you really want something with better than average appeal to the twenty-something crowd, yet don't want a smaller vehicle, you might have to lease a 2 year old car with some warranty left on it instead.

How much would you guess that would cost?

I've also considered buying something ~3-4 years old, e.g. I walked by the Infiniti dealer yesterday and they had a blue 04 G35X with a tag saying $22K in its window. But I suspect a loan for $22K (or $20K or whatever) plus the additional maintenance/fuel/etc would cost MORE... and sure, in 4-5 years, I have "some" equity... in a now 8 year old car, which will probably be worth $5K.

Just get one you want, you'll be spending $800+ a month running this thing if your monthly ends up ~$500, thats a mortgage payment, so you've obviously got a nice job lined up and want to reward yourself.

Well, the thing is, a "decently" equipped econobox (Corolla) is already like $340/month, I think... so spending the extra $150 or so for a decent big car with leather and all doesn't seem that unreasonable?

Used cars... cost less in the long run, but in the first year or two, will probably cost the same or more (what's the interest rate on a used car loan these days?)?

[Jeff-TheBiz]

Mazda 6

Can definately be had for less than $500 a month

[VivienM]

Can definately be had for less than $500 a month

With auto climate, leather, and maybe the V6?

Is there any inventory left of the 08?

Web site is saying $557 taxes in for a GT I4...

[new_vr]

I don't know why VW's and Honda's are frowned upon. You should at least take them for a spin...
That being said, I would give the Fusion a try if I were looking right now

[VivienM]

I don't know why VW's and Honda's are frowned upon. You should at least take them for a spin...
That being said, I would give the Fusion a try if I were looking right now

I'll probably try the Accord EX-L. Not sure what the appropriate VW would be... Jetta? Awfully small, no?

Fusion... *sigh* I was extremely pleased with my test drive, but I only had like 3 days to order a 2008, and those 3 days are long past (and the deals on 09s are probably not as good?). Dealer inventory seems to be minimal. And everybody I mention it to visibly recoils at the thought of the Ford badge...

[ssainani]

why not the new impala or malibu?

[frogger]

If you found the Aura ride harsh, you won't like the Mazda 6's.

A non secured used car loan or lease rate would run you 8%, true.

[Jeff-TheBiz]

Can definately be had for less than $500 a month

With auto climate, leather, and maybe the V6?

Is there any inventory left of the 08?

Web site is saying $557 taxes in for a GT I4...

Lemme work on it..:)

[VivienM]

why not the new impala or malibu?

Impala is out due to lack of automatic climate control. Bloody MBA morons at GM is all I can say about THAT. There's absolutely NO reason for the LTZ Impala not to have auto climate, but hey, GM MBAs think differently.

Grand Prix would have been the W body of choice. But apparently production ended at the end of last year, and there's a whopping TWO in Ontario left.

Malibu, well..., here's the thing:
- the auto climate requirement means an LTZ, i.e. big $$$
- I assume I have to get the V6 LTZ (more $$$$) - the Epsilons are extremely heavy compared to Altimas, so a 169HP 4 banger may not cut it?
- styling, I like... but most other people seem to think "old man's car" far more than with the Altima
- the disappointing Aura experience makes me a bit weary of more Epsilons
... but it's still in the running, I suppose.

[VivienM]

If you found the Aura ride harsh, you won't like the Mazda 6's.

So the 6 is tuned substantially more sportily than its platformmate the Ford Fusion?

That's what I was guessing...

[ssainani]

I'll probably try the Accord EX-L. Not sure what the appropriate VW would be... Jetta? Awfully small, no?

probably the passat --- my mother has a newish passat and totally loves it
the base might be in your price ranged .... the problem with the passat is that is somewhat over priced -- a jetta with 2.0t would be great imo -- but lacks the big car feel (it does have totally ample room though)

the small vw cars will leave you with slightly less than perfect back seat legroom and trunk room....which you might not even care about

[lofidelity]

If you liked your Buick, why don't you try out the new Buicks? The Allure and Lucerne are in your price range and should satisfy your criteria.

[df329]

buick

[VivienM]

If you liked your Buick, why don't you try out the new Buicks? The Allure and Lucerne are in your price range and should satisfy your criteria.

I like my dad's W body Buick (don't have my own...)... and my plan, for the longest time, was to buy it from him and keep it for a couple of years. Lots of sensible reasons behind that... especially since I think he wants a new car in the next year or so anyways.

The problem with THAT idea is that now my dad thinks I should be driving something with a better (read: more suitable for a mid-20s guy) image than a Buick. Hence what's triggering this gigantic shopping dilemma. And while I like the Allure/Lucerne (at least on paper - haven't driven them), they're a bit pricy (GM, quite wisely given the abysmal expected resale of these things, is pushing financing over leasing), and certainly very Buicky image-wise.

I'm starting to think this is near hopeless.

(Why did Nissan have to screw up the trunk in the Altima coupe??? If they hadn't done that, then that car would be the obvious solution to this. Great styling, gorgeous blue colour with a nice light interior, right around the right price range, the 2.5 model shouldn't be tuned too sporty, etc. But that ridiculously undersized trunk... makes me worry that one day, I'll be standing on a parking lot with something that won't fit, and the only difference between ME and the sucker who takes public transit is that _I_'d paying $700-800/month for transportation as useless as his.)

Another potential option I'm surprised no one has mentioned: Pontiac G8.

[nalababe]

Instead of me randomly asking questions in random threads, how about I make my very own, seeking-car-advice thread? :)

Here are the criteria:
- no econoboxes. No dressed up econoboxes by another name (Acura CSX, this means you).
- under $500/month, including taxes at the Ontario rate, for a 48 month lease with $0-500 due at delivery
- something tuned for comfort more than handling (I like W body Buicks, remember?)
- automatic climate control
- leather would be nice, as would an upgraded sound system
- safety features like traction/stability control would be good
- available with a light-coloured interior and, in that order, blue, red, or white exterior
- no particular preferences as to engine. Bigger is of course better, but anything that fits in the budget is good...
- all brands are acceptable. Domestics are fine, unless they suck (Chrysler Sebring/Dodge Avenger, this means you). Honda and Volkswagens are frowned upon, but can be considered anyways...
- something that's as little of an "old"/"family" man's car as possible. Not looking for a 'chick magnet', but something that doesn't drive away women younger than 65 would be nice...
- probably looking at 4 door sedans, though other body styles are acceptable too for as long as there's reasonable trunk space (Nissan Altima coupe, that means you).

So far, I've test driven the following:
- Saturn Aura XR. Feels horrible. Ruled out.
- Ford Fusion SEL V6. Great value. Feels good on the road. Difficult to get an 08 at this point. Dubious brand image.
- Nissan Altima 2.5SL (well, I drove the S, not SL). The leading choice right now, but a few things make me nervous. And I'd love the coupe but the trunk is too small...

Any suggestions?

Loved and picked up the fusion. As you said, great value. V6 SEL loaded with just about everything and 25k per year for 400 a month including taxes (had access to x plan). Not regretting in the slightest...

[frogger]

So the 6 is tuned substantially more sportily than its platformmate the Ford Fusion?

That's what I was guessing...

A little more sporty and the platform was made a little more rigid between the two when they enlarged it for the Ford. I drove both, though I am going by distant memory on the Mazda.

The Mazda is 70 inches wide, same width as the Epsilons.

[VivienM]

Loved and picked up the fusion. As you said, great value. V6 SEL loaded with just about everything and 25k per year for 400 a month including taxes (had access to x plan). Not regretting in the slightest...

I'm starting to regret not ordering one!

I was at a Ford dealer a couple Saturdays ago. The sales person said it was basically too late to order a new 08, but that their last order had been sent in two days or so before, and if I bought one in the next 2-3 days, they could change one of their ordered cars to match my specs. Not sure if that's true or not - Googling suggests that the last order

I came home thinking I was going to go back on Monday and order the car. Then I talked to a couple friends, parents, etc. The "you can't seriously be thinking about buying a FORD?!?!?!" response was absolutely overwhelming.

So I didn't go back...

Ironically, one of the friends who was adamantly opposed to the Fusion saw one a week or two later, and suddenly changed his tune. That's the problem with the Fusion: if you check out the car, I think you can't help but like it, BUT if you hear that dreaded four letter F word first, you'll recoil.

The sad thing is, the Fusion with a 20K lease, the graduate discount, etc. was like... $425/month, I think. Altima web site price is $497/month (though that's a 24K lease). $70 more for a nicer interior, 2 fewer cylinders, a Bose sound system, and no traction control sounds is a bit... hard to justify.

And while the blue Fusion is a disaster, too (WHAT HAPPENED TO NICE BLUE CARS?????????? it seems every manufacturer dropped their nice blue cars... e.g. in my neighbourhood, there's a current-body Camry in a gorgeous blue, yet that colour isn't listed at toyota.ca, so they must have dropped it for 08), the red is quite nice... :)

[mr_raider]

My suggestions: Altima, Fusion and Mazda 6.

The Jetta is surprisingly roomy if you are willing to consider it. The Passat is out of your price range. Both are suspect in reliability once out of warranty.

[KawaiiTentacleBeast]

It has been revealed in the GM/CAW negotiations that there is going to be a second line producing RWD vehicles beside the Camaro in Oshawa. It's probably going to be a Zeta, and Chevy and Pontiac already have Zeta cars. That means one thing - NEW RWD BUICK!

[VivienM]

It has been revealed in the GM/CAW negotiations that there is going to be a second line producing RWD vehicles beside the Camaro in Oshawa. It's probably going to be a Zeta, and Chevy and Pontiac already have Zeta cars. That means one thing - NEW RWD BUICK!

Mmmmm, that'll probably be at the top of my list when the lease on THIS car is up? :)

Hopefully by then my budget will be a bit higher, too. :)

(What's up with the RWD Impala? I haven't been keeping up on my GM rumours, wasn't it cancelled for a while?)

[Asad_A203]

Just get the Altima coupe. You are in your 20s what would you possibly need a trunk for; maybe backseats but definately no trunk ;).

I use my rear seats the odd time I need to put groceries in it. And I was able to fit 4 18 tires in the car!

[VivienM]

Just get the Altima coupe. You are in your 20s what would you possibly need a trunk for; maybe backseats but definately no trunk ;).

Well, I'm going to be moving twice in the next two years?

It would be nice to be able to go to Home Depot or Ikea and buy stuff and have it fit. The shallowness of the Altima coupe's trunk is extremely troubling in that respect...

[leon200608]

Instead of me randomly asking questions in random threads, how about I make my very own, seeking-car-advice thread? :)

Here are the criteria:
- no econoboxes. No dressed up econoboxes by another name (Acura CSX, this means you).
- under $500/month, including taxes at the Ontario rate, for a 48 month lease with $0-500 due at delivery
- something tuned for comfort more than handling (I like W body Buicks, remember?)
- automatic climate control
- leather would be nice, as would an upgraded sound system
- safety features like traction/stability control would be good
- available with a light-coloured interior and, in that order, blue, red, or white exterior
- no particular preferences as to engine. Bigger is of course better, but anything that fits in the budget is good...
- all brands are acceptable. Domestics are fine, unless they suck (Chrysler Sebring/Dodge Avenger, this means you). Honda and Volkswagens are frowned upon, but can be considered anyways...
- something that's as little of an "old"/"family" man's car as possible. Not looking for a 'chick magnet', but something that doesn't drive away women younger than 65 would be nice...
- probably looking at 4 door sedans, though other body styles are acceptable too for as long as there's reasonable trunk space (Nissan Altima coupe, that means you).

So far, I've test driven the following:
- Saturn Aura XR. Feels horrible. Ruled out.
- Ford Fusion SEL V6. Great value. Feels good on the road. Difficult to get an 08 at this point. Dubious brand image.
- Nissan Altima 2.5SL (well, I drove the S, not SL). The leading choice right now, but a few things make me nervous. And I'd love the coupe but the trunk is too small...

Any suggestions?

Then I would suggest you the car I'm driving right now: 2007 Buick Allure CXL. I'm 26 and I used to pay 220/month (full coverage) on this car. Now I'm in Quebec, the insurance of this car actually dropped, 180/month full coverage.
It's an awesome car, same size as the Impala, lots of space and good handling. Not very fast but has reasonable acceleration. Very solid car, ran into a big accident but still works perfectly. Curb weight 1500kg, 12L/100km local/highway mixed. Has automatic climate (dual zone) control, big trunk as well. Plus, back-in radar.

If you don't mind to be considered as an old folk then this is a good choice.

[leon200608]

Actually, there is another choice beside my Allure.

Buick Lucerne. It has all the Allure's features, and 10cm bigger. It's better than the Allure in all sense except its fuel consumption.

Not even closer to what's claimed by the manufacturer. In fact it's ~16L/100km local/highway mixed.

[Asad_A203]

Well, I'm going to be moving twice in the next two years?

It would be nice to be able to go to Home Depot or Ikea and buy stuff and have it fit. The shallowness of the Altima coupe's trunk is extremely troubling in that respect...

Practicality is so over rated now a days; lol.

[VivienM]

Practicality is so over rated now a days; lol.

I just wish I could understand what Nissan's problem with trunks and coupes is.

If you look at Honda, the Accord coupe and sedan have roughly similar-sized trunks.

Yet Nissan puts ridiculously tiny trunks in BOTH the Altima and the G35 coupes.

Why?

[VivienM]

Actually, there is another choice beside my Allure.

Buick Lucerne. It has all the Allure's features, and 10cm bigger. It's better than the Allure in all sense except its fuel consumption.

Decently equipped, the Lucerne is probably above my budget... at least going by GM's web site. Now, I know GM's pricing is... highly fluid, but fluid enough to drop a price $80/month?

[M-e-X-x]

Subaru legacy 2.5i

i'd choose that too, but to get under $500/mth all in i don't think it's possible... unless u're leasing or something..

[leon200608]

Decently equipped, the Lucerne is probably above my budget... at least going by GM's web site. Now, I know GM's pricing is... highly fluid, but fluid enough to drop a price $80/month?

Take the Allure then, got everything you need. I move a lot too, just moved from St. Catharines to Montreal, it was big enough to load 3/4 of my old apartment's stuff. In fact, the trunk can fit two little fridges. When I arrived at Montreal I went to IKEA bought a sofa-bed, one dining table and a fridge, no problem to fit. The back seat can fold and you can put long stuff through.

Its Ford competitor is the new Taurus, but I guess that's beyond your budget too. The fusion isn't bad but it's still quite small in terms of the wheel base and trunk space.

[Sepiraph]

I think you have conflicting criteria, usually non-"econoboxes" are tuned more for handling. Also usually car selection is very subjective, especially in terms of looks. You should really narrow it down with a personal list of no more than 2-3 cars.

Anyway off the top of my head, the 09 Corolla XRS. Somewhat sporty-look with a fairly comfort-tuned suspension (based on magazine review).

Instead of me randomly asking questions in random threads, how about I make my very own, seeking-car-advice thread? :)

Here are the criteria:
- no econoboxes. No dressed up econoboxes by another name (Acura CSX, this means you).
- under $500/month, including taxes at the Ontario rate, for a 48 month lease with $0-500 due at delivery
- something tuned for comfort more than handling (I like W body Buicks, remember?)
- automatic climate control
- leather would be nice, as would an upgraded sound system
- safety features like traction/stability control would be good
- available with a light-coloured interior and, in that order, blue, red, or white exterior
- no particular preferences as to engine. Bigger is of course better, but anything that fits in the budget is good...
- all brands are acceptable. Domestics are fine, unless they suck (Chrysler Sebring/Dodge Avenger, this means you). Honda and Volkswagens are frowned upon, but can be considered anyways...
- something that's as little of an "old"/"family" man's car as possible. Not looking for a 'chick magnet', but something that doesn't drive away women younger than 65 would be nice...
- probably looking at 4 door sedans, though other body styles are acceptable too for as long as there's reasonable trunk space (Nissan Altima coupe, that means you).

So far, I've test driven the following:
- Saturn Aura XR. Feels horrible. Ruled out.
- Ford Fusion SEL V6. Great value. Feels good on the road. Difficult to get an 08 at this point. Dubious brand image.
- Nissan Altima 2.5SL (well, I drove the S, not SL). The leading choice right now, but a few things make me nervous. And I'd love the coupe but the trunk is too small...

Any suggestions?

[leon200608]

I think you have conflicting criteria, usually non-"econoboxes" are tuned more for handling. Also usually car selection is very subjective, especially in terms of looks. You should really narrow it down with a personal list of no more than 2-3 cars.

Anyway off the top of my head, the 09 Corolla XRS. Somewhat sporty-look with a fairly comfort-tuned suspension (based on magazine review).

A ...... WHAT?? Corolla?! *&%$#@! Hahahahaha....you put a fridge in its trunk the car gonna collapse...:cheesygri

[VivienM]

Take the Allure then, got everything you need. I move a lot too, just moved from St. Catharines to Montreal, it was big enough to load 3/4 of my old apartment's stuff. In fact, the trunk can fit two little fridges. When I arrived at Montreal I went to IKEA bought a sofa-bed, one dining table and a fridge, no problem. The back seat can fold and you can put long stuff through.

Its Ford competitor is the new Taurus, but I guess that's beyond your budget too. The fusion isn't bad but it's still quite small in terms of the wheel base and trunk space.

The Allure is basically the same thing as my dad's Regal with different sheet metal and interior... which is both a good and a bad thing.

The Taurus is bigger than the Allure, no? It's a nice car, though I think since it's "new" for this year, they're not incentiving it enough to fit in my budget, you're right. But I have to give Ford credit for offering auto climate standard on all trims (memo to GM: THIS is how it's done. FIX YOUR F***ING IMPALA).

Fusion's trunk, FYI, is 0.2 cu. ft. smaller than the Allure's. Too lazy to check wheelbase.

The Allure could be on my short list, I suppose, though two things trouble me:
- it's a bit old-school (hello 1996 update to 1986 powertrain... it's sad to say, but my dad had a 1987 Buick LeSabre that had roughly the same engine/transmission as is offered now, 21 MYs later) compared to the foreign or Epsilonic competition
- the advertised incentives (e.g. 0.75% lease rate instead of 2.25% for the Malibu) don't compensate enough for the old-schoolness?
Web site price for the Allure equipped the way I'd want it is $493/month + tax (48 mo., 20K kms). Knowing GM, that's fluid, sure. But the Altima is $497 including taxes... and aside from the Allure having traction/stability control and that delicious 3.8L engine (which, sadly, leads to SLOWER performance than the 2.5/CVT in the Nissan), it's hard to make a compelling case for the Allure... (now, if the Allure was $450 all in... like the Fusion... then we'd be talking :))

[VivienM]

I think you have conflicting criteria, usually non-"econoboxes" are tuned more for handling.

Go drive a 2.5S Altima, any Buick, a Chevy Impala, a Ford Fusion, Toyota Camry LE/XLE (or Lexus ES350), etc.

All non-econoboxes. All tuned WAY less for handling and way more for comfort than a Civic or Mazda 3. I have zero experience with Corollas so I can't comment on that.

Also usually car selection is very subjective, especially in terms of looks. You should really narrow it down with a personal list of no more than 2-3 cars.

I had a list of 3 - the 3 I've test driven (okay, the Fusion was a bit improised). None sealed the deal. If I had to go and buy tomorrow, I'd probaaaaably get the Altima and hope I never need stability/traction control. Hence why I'm asking here hoping somebody has some ideas that I haven't thought of :)

[leon200608]

The Allure is basically the same thing as my dad's Regal with different sheet metal and interior... which is both a good and a bad thing.

The Taurus is bigger than the Allure, no? It's a nice car, though I think since it's "new" for this year, they're not incentiving it enough to fit in my budget, you're right. But I have to give Ford credit for offering auto climate standard on all trims (memo to GM: THIS is how it's done. FIX YOUR F***ING IMPALA).

Fusion's trunk, FYI, is 0.2 cu. ft. smaller than the Allure's. Too lazy to check wheelbase.

The Allure could be on my short list, I suppose, though two things trouble me:
- it's a bit old-school (hello 1996 update to 1986 powertrain... it's sad to say, but my dad had a 1987 Buick LeSabre that had roughly the same engine/transmission as is offered now, 21 MYs later) compared to the foreign or Epsilonic competition
- the advertised incentives (e.g. 0.75% lease rate instead of 2.25% for the Malibu) don't compensate enough for the old-schoolness?
Web site price for the Allure equipped the way I'd want it is $493/month + tax (48 mo., 20K kms). Knowing GM, that's fluid, sure. But the Altima is $497 including taxes... and aside from the Allure having traction/stability control and that delicious 3.8L engine (which, sadly, leads to SLOWER performance than the 2.5/CVT in the Nissan), it's hard to make a compelling case for the Allure... (now, if the Allure was $450 all in... like the Fusion... then we'd be talking :))

Altima isn't bad, take it if you like it. Buying a car is like getting a girlfriend. You gotta pick the one you love, other things are discretionary. I don't really know its long term reliability though. By the way, what about the Dodge Charger?

[leon200608]

Well, I guess in the end you'll get the Altima.

I guess after that I'll be the promoter of GM W-body vehicles in this forum.:cheesygri

[VivienM]

Altima isn't bad, take it if you like it. Buying a car is like getting a girlfriend. You gotta pick the one you love, other things are discretionary. I don't really know its long term reliability though. By the way, what about the Dodge Charger?

I was waiting for someone to mention Chrysler/Dodge vehicles! With their current pricing, they certainly seem to be great value for the money.

Their web site is horribly lousy when it comes to getting a quote, though. It's telling me $355/month for a TWO year lease, presumably not including taxes, and $3000 down. There's no way that I can find to adjust any of these parameters. Doesn't look like a bad price, though, for a big car... and the 2 year term instead of 4 year would be appealing too. Hopefully by 2010 my budget would be greater... and there'd be some Zeta Buicks. Mmmmmm...

Avenger/Sebring would be an option, too, if the styling wasn't so absolutely horrendous.

Maybe it's time to join APA and get some prices...

[VivienM]

Well, I guess in the end you'll get the Altima.

Or the Ford, but that's what it looks like. Altima, especially if I end up going with white, has the big advantage that dealers have inventory of the configuration I want!

Assuming time permits, I do still want to check out:
- Malibu LTZ
- Accord EX-L (4 cyl.)
- Dodge Charger
- Mazda 6

And yes, that's a fairly ridiculously... mismatched... list of vehicles, I know. Some FWD, some RWD; some 4 cyls., some V6s. Etc.

I guess after that I'll be the promoter of GM W-body vehicles in this forum.:cheesygri

Hey, I can still promote them without owning one!

Used W bodies make a ton of sense. They're reliable, extremely cheap to insure, cheap to service, roomy, great on the highway, etc.

NEW W bodies... don't make as much sense, unless there are way more incentives that I don't know about (certainly possible). Big problem is this: GM's normal way of selling new W bodies is through discounted lease/finance rates, but in order to deal with the American pricing situation, they've slashed their rates on Epsilons too. So when the web site quotes me the same payments for a Malibu LTZ and a mid-range Allure CXL, there's a problem...

[Asad_A203]

I just wish I could understand what Nissan's problem with trunks and coupes is.

If you look at Honda, the Accord coupe and sedan have roughly similar-sized trunks.

Yet Nissan puts ridiculously tiny trunks in BOTH the Altima and the G35 coupes.

Why?

Well I think that is exactly it. The Altima coupe is modelled after the G35C. The G35C is a sports coupe and it is considered only more practical than the 350Z with the two rear seats and a slightly larger trunk. Either way you go; the G35C seems more practical than a "raw" sports car but of course it can't compare to a real family sedan like the Accord Coupe.

[VivienM]

Malibu LTZ?

Hmmm. I've been rethinking the Malibu.

Thoughts on its 'old-manness' compared to the Altima?

I posted a list of cons on the Malibu before, now here's a list of pros:
- better value for the $$$$$ (especially if I buy before my autoshow discount expires on June 2)
- quite possibly a nice 252HP V6 instead of a 4 banger
- available in a blue that I think actually looks blue, and a nice red otherwise (Nissan's red makes me nervous)
- I like its exterior styling more than the Altima's awkward rear
- it's GM
- standard stability control

[df329]

said it before and say it again.. buick

i'm in my 20s driving one and i'm still cool .... kinda :D

[plucky duck]

A used Oldsmobile Intrigue perhaps? European styling, traction control, 3.5L "shortstar" engine? Decent mileage, large trunk.

Either that or screw practicality and get a Cadillac XLR :twisted: Or get a Dodge Caravan Extended, loads of room :P

[B0000rt]

In all honesty, I was in the same situation as you and wanted a 4 door sedan. I looked and looked and looked at sedans but ended up getting of all things, a RAV4 V6...

I've helped a friend move from NY to Delaware, moved a whole bunch of stuff from Toronto to Union, NJ and also moved two loads of stuff from Union, NJ to Carteret, NJ!

Insanely practical, not to mention a great highway cruiser for the frequent trips I make back and forth from Jersey to Toronto. I also get good highway mileage, and decent city, 26mpg/20mpg respectively. (EPA is 26/19ish). I was looking at the Legacy GT for a really really really long time and don't regret my decision at all! (Better gas mileage, Regular Gas and loads more cargo room than the Legacy GT)

[mr_raider]

Don't get too caught up with trunk size. It's a feature you'll only use on moving day, twice in two years. Do you want to put up with the fuel consumption of larger car all year round just for that? It may be cheaper to just a rent a minivan for a day. Get your furniture from places that deliver.

In the last year 3 years, I moved 3 times, and did it all with a Nissan Sentra.

[VivienM]

Don't get too caught up with trunk size. It's a feature you'll only use on moving day, twice in two years. Do you want to put up with the fuel consumption of larger car all year round just for that? It may be cheaper to just a rent a minivan for a day. Get your furniture from places that deliver.

Well, the Altima sedan has the same fuel consumption as the coupe...

[nolimtzel]

2006 jeep grand cherokee laredo with 3.7l v6
i did my research on it,
went to all the jeep forums
they actually get decent gas milege for a full size suv.
around 18-19 city
and 21-23 highway.
while only sipping regular.
2006 year is the second year of the lastest gen,
it comes with the standard esc, tc,abs and antiroll.

dealer close to my house is offering one with 46k on it for $15500.
factory warranty for another 2 years or 80k.

[new_vr]

Don't get too caught up with trunk size. It's a feature you'll only use on moving day, twice in two years. Do you want to put up with the fuel consumption of larger car all year round just for that? It may be cheaper to just a rent a minivan for a day. Get your furniture from places that deliver.

In the last year 3 years, I moved 3 times, and did it all with a Nissan Sentra.

Renting vehicles is suprisingly cheap for those moving days...
Or just find a friend with a truck.

[careener]

Well, the Altima sedan has the same fuel consumption as the coupe...

Reading the thread, the Altima sounds like a good vehicle for you.

[mau108]

Subaru Legacy
Acura TSX
Honda Accord
Ford Fusion
not sure on the lease rate of the new benz c class, love the looks of those cars.

those are my selection in no specific order.

[bahasad]

How about a C230?

[VivienM]

How about a C230?

New?

[gherikill]

Don't get too caught up with trunk size. It's a feature you'll only use on moving day, twice in two years. Do you want to put up with the fuel consumption of larger car all year round just for that? It may be cheaper to just a rent a minivan for a day. Get your furniture from places that deliver.

In the last year 3 years, I moved 3 times, and did it all with a Nissan Sentra.


Trunk size is extremely important to me. I went camping with 4 people total in May of this year. If I had a small trunk people would have had camping supplies all over them in the back seat. When you go to Home depot to pick up soil or plants or whatever the large trunk is extremely useful.

Vivien, you have to let the climate control thing go and get a Impala LTZ or at least try the Charger. Ford fusion looks good but is too small IMO.

I like the Taurus also but as already mentioned it is probably out of your price range.

Have you looked at any SUVs or CUVS? I guess used is out of the question for you?

[VivienM]

Vivien, you have to let the climate control thing go and get a Impala LTZ or at least try the Charger. Ford fusion looks good but is too small IMO.

I'll check out the Charger, if I have time (well, I have time, but I prefer to drag a friend with me, and his schedule is busier than mine).

I'm not sure how the Fusion is too small. I admit I felt a bit cramped in the Aura (which is odd because I'm not an especially BIG dude), but the Fusion felt big enough on the inside. Sure, the trunk is smaller than the Impala's, but it's bigger than either coupe or sedan Altima's...

Have you looked at any SUVs or CUVS? I guess used is out of the question for you?

SUVs or CUVs? What is there in the price range, new?

Used... here's the problem. Let's start with the $500/month limit. Let's say I want a 4 year loan... at 7% interest (not sure if that's low or high for used car loans), that makes $21000. Subtract 13% taxes. That's $18500 maximum spending. What can I get for $18500? A 2004 Cadillac Seville STS? Maybe if I bargain really really well, a 2004 G35x (there's one advertised at the stealership down the street for $22K)?

Advantages:
- at the end of 4 years, my used vehicle is still worth something whereas with leasing I have nothing. (Then again, how much is a 8-9 year old car really worth?)
- can probably get something nicer... especially if I'm willing to go a bit older.

Disadvantages:
- there will be maintenance/repairs adding to those costs. The nicer the car (read: luxury brands), the higher those are likely to cost.
- It's far more difficult to get options/colour schemes you want on used cars.
- four years from now, I'll be spending $500/month on an 8 year old car (which, psychologically, is a bit troubling)

[VivienM]

Have you looked at any SUVs or CUVS?

Radical new idea: how about a Toyota RAV4?

[gherikill]

I don't like Rav4 (Girls car and/or soccer mom car).

Have you looked at Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute or Ford Edge(might be out of your range).

[VivienM]

I don't like Rav4 (Girls car and/or soccer mom car).

Have you looked at Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute or Ford Edge(might be out of your range).

Edge isn't equally soccer mom-like?

[gherikill]

I think Edge is Masculine, sat in one at the auto show and loved it.

Just quickly checked ford.ca and looks like you may be able to finance a Mustang (albeit very basic) for under 500/month.

Not sure if a Mustang is your style though (its not mine).

[B0000rt]

Radical new idea: how about a Toyota RAV4?

Hello? Look at post #49 :P

RAV4 is great, available 269hp V6 dude!

[nalababe]

Mustand looks nice, but insurance is steep....another thing I like about the Fusion is the low insurance. I had three minor convictions within three years (with a company car it was not a worry). Even with these convictions I was able to get insurance for about 200 a month for collision and liability--35 M, in a few months it will go down to 160-180 a month).

Trunk is great, and with the seats down I easily fit 9' 2x4's which I needed for building.

Now, don't get me wrong, I was adament against a Ford, but for ths car, I wasn't going to get the CTS, so had to look at something cheaper.

For me the Accord and Camry were not worth the extra 4-5k premium (and I didn't have plan pricing for them).

I did like the 6; however, the seats hurt after only a 15 minute drive.

[VivienM]

Hello? Look at post #49 :P

RAV4 is great, available 269hp V6 dude!

Hmmm. Post #49 was buried between a post about used W bodies (yay W bodies!) and a post about trunk sizes, and seems to have escaped my attention.

Or... perhaps... I was subconsciously thinking of post #49 now. :)

[VivienM]

In all honesty, I was in the same situation as you and wanted a 4 door sedan. I looked and looked and looked at sedans but ended up getting of all things, a RAV4 V6...

I've helped a friend move from NY to Delaware, moved a whole bunch of stuff from Toronto to Union, NJ and also moved two loads of stuff from Union, NJ to Carteret, NJ!

Insanely practical, not to mention a great highway cruiser for the frequent trips I make back and forth from Jersey to Toronto.

Which trim did you get? 4WD? (I think in the US there are FWD-only ones)

I assume yours is the 2006+ model?

[B0000rt]

Which trim did you get? 4WD? (I think in the US there are FWD-only ones)

I assume yours is the 2006+ model?

No, American models have 4WD too..

I got the 4WD Sport V6... Not much difference between the base and Sport, other than some appearance stuff and 16" vs 18" rims. The Limited has available leather and Auto Climate control options.

Just hit up a dealership and waste the saleman's time :D

[Ziggy007]

Try for a Sonata.

It will cost right about $500 a month for 60 months for a fully loaded V6

[VivienM]

The Limited has available leather and Auto Climate control options.

On the web site, the Limited with the B package looks like it has absolutely everything I might want. Totally outside the budget though. A base Limited V6 is about $550 everything in, and the 4 cyl. is $495 or so.

You say you're happy with the RAV4 for long distance highway driving? Hmm...

[bahasad]

RAV4 is a good choice I think, though it is a bit bland imo. I said 2008 MB C230 because I thought it would be in your price range, but this is just based on presumptions.

Not sure if it fits your criteria but maybe an Audi A3? MB B Class?

edit: Quickly pulled up Merc's website, did a quick run through the payment calculator:
C230 no options
Total Cost $35,800.00
Downpayment/Trade-In Amount $3,580.00
Length of Contract 48 Months
Annual Kilometres 18,000 km/year
Monthly Payment* $431.80

B200 Turbo
Total Cost $33,900.00
Downpayment/Trade-In Amount $3,390.00
Length of Contract 48 Months
Annual Kilometres 18,000 km/year
Monthly Payment* $432.83

[VivienM]

RAV4 is a good choice I think, though it is a bit bland imo. I said 2008 MB C230 because I thought it would be in your price range, but this is just based on presumptions.

Not sure if it fits your criteria but maybe an Audi A3? MB B Class?

edit: Quickly pulled up Merc's website, did a quick run through the payment calculator:
C230 no options
Total Cost $35,800.00
Downpayment/Trade-In Amount $3,580.00
Length of Contract 48 Months
Annual Kilometres 18,000 km/year
Monthly Payment* $431.80

B200 Turbo
Total Cost $33,900.00
Downpayment/Trade-In Amount $3,390.00
Length of Contract 48 Months
Annual Kilometres 18,000 km/year
Monthly Payment* $432.83

Yup. Add the automatic transmission (at least on the C230), a decent paint colour, and that's already $2500 in options.

Then kill the $3K down payment, that'll add about $60-80/month.

Then you're up to ~550, and you're not even including the taxes yet.

Luxury automakers are GREAT at setting up their web sites to give you absurdly low lease quotes. BMW's was defaulting to a $6000 or something down payment on the 323i.

Their newspaper ads are even worse: you're expected to pay a $5K down payment, PLUS freight/PDI, plus some administrative fees, and THEN it's $399/month + tax for a stripper base model.

[VivienM]

Yet another completely crazy idea: does anyone know anything about leasing used vehicles? I notice that BMW is offering 1% leasing on their certified pre-owned, and given most of the depreciation occurs in the first hour after a new car leaves the lot, in theory this could be a decent deal?

But knowing German automakers, I suspect there's a catch I'm not seeing.

(And, of course, this ignores the slightly troublesome reality that I don't really like BMWs that much. But hey...)

[AGR-1]

Its the same as leasing a new vehicle, ideally its a 36 month walk away lease with a 20,000 klms per year allowance. You would be leasing a 3 year old vehicle which was a lease return from when it was new.

Compare leasing a used to leasing a new you might prefer the new over the used.

Over 70% of 3 Series are leased when they are new, consequently BMW has a lot of lease returns, offering a 1% rate and extended warranties to 160,000klms is a way to remarket lease returns.

[df329]

Actually, there is another choice beside my Allure.

Buick Lucerne. It has all the Allure's features, and 10cm bigger. It's better than the Allure in all sense except its fuel consumption.

Not even closer to what's claimed by the manufacturer. In fact it's ~16L/100km local/highway mixed.


we have 30k on our lucerne and it's at 12.3L/100km :D

[gherikill]

we have 30k on our lucerne and it's at 12.3L/100km :D

Do you have the Northstar?

[df329]

Do you have the Northstar?


nope! i didn't realise you guys were talking about the v8 optioned one

[VivienM]

Okay, here's an update.

Went test driving.

The following were test driven:
- VW Passat. I think this was a suggestion from this thread. Wow, the pricing the guy was quoting me was WAY lower than I was expecting. I may have to give up on auto climate control, though...

- Chevy Malibu LTZ. Sorry GM. This is the third Epsilon I try, and the third that fails. This one's problem? The steering. IT'S AN AMERICAN CAR, folks, not a go kart without power steering.

- Toyota Corolla LE. Unusual choice for me, but I figured I'd check it out out of respect for all of you fine "stick with Civic/Corolla" types. Not bad for an econobox. Pricy, though. $380/month?!?

So now, I'm thinking Passat, though the VW logo and its reliability reputation makes me a bit nervous. But the bumper-to-bumper warranty is 4 years...

[df329]

you have to stop recommending gm W bodies now

[mr_raider]

So now, I'm thinking Passat, though the VW logo and its reliability reputation makes me a bit nervous. But the bumper-to-bumper warranty is 4 years...

Who cares if you lease?

[leon200608]

Okay, here's an update.

Went test driving.

The following were test driven:
- VW Passat. I think this was a suggestion from this thread. Wow, the pricing the guy was quoting me was WAY lower than I was expecting. I may have to give up on auto climate control, though...

- Chevy Malibu LTZ. Sorry GM. This is the third Epsilon I try, and the third that fails. This one's problem? The steering. IT'S AN AMERICAN CAR, folks, not a go kart without power steering.

- Toyota Corolla LE. Unusual choice for me, but I figured I'd check it out out of respect for all of you fine "stick with Civic/Corolla" types. Not bad for an econobox. Pricy, though. $380/month?!?

So now, I'm thinking Passat, though the VW logo and its reliability reputation makes me a bit nervous. But the bumper-to-bumper warranty is 4 years...

Isn't Passat quite small?? No bigger than the Corolla?

[VivienM]

you have to stop recommending gm W bodies now

Why?

I've always recommended W bodies as solid USED buys. The exact same factors that make them good used cars make them bad new buys.

Saw something depressing today, BTW, in terms of W bodies. Brand new 2006 fully loaded Grand Prix (supercharged, leather, Monsoon sound, auto. climate, etc.). Sitting in a dealer showroom, unsold.

[VivienM]

Isn't Passat quite small?? No bigger than the Corolla?

No, Passat is... probably about as big as the W bodies or Altima or the like?

[VivienM]

Who cares if you lease?

If you have to get the car towed, or spend forever in dealer waiting rooms, it's still annoying.

[frogger]

Why?

I've always recommended W bodies as solid USED buys. The exact same factors that make them good used cars make them bad new buys.

Saw something depressing today, BTW, in terms of W bodies. Brand new 2006 fully loaded Grand Prix (supercharged, leather, Monsoon sound, auto. climate, etc.). Sitting in a dealer showroom, unsold.

You complained about the steering in the Epsilons, the W-bodies were not any better?!

[VivienM]

You complained about the steering in the Epsilons, the W-bodies were not any better?!

W bodies have light steering in my experience. The Malibu felt as though it didn't have power steering!

(This is not a "what is wrong with this crazy light American steering" kind of complaint like people make about W bodies. This is a "why isn't this steering light like a proper American car?" complaint.)

[MrDisco]

W bodies have light steering in my experience. The Malibu felt as though it didn't have power steering!


the v6 uses hydraulics while (most?) of the competition uses electric (like in the passat). that could account for the difference in feel

The Passat has below average reliability and is not recommended by CR. The Passat with auto starts at $28.8k (4 cylinder turbo). A Camry LE V6 starts at $28k. Previously you said the Camry v6 was out of your budget so I'm curious how the Passat fits?

You seem to be a little all over the map on this one. Why not just get an Impala and be done with it. Auto climate is pretty over-rated. It's just one more computer module+sensors that can go wrong down the road.

[VivienM]

the v6 uses hydraulics while (most?) of the competition uses electric (like in the passat). that could account for the difference in feel

Could be.

The Passat has below average reliability and is not recommended by CR. The Passat with auto starts at $28.8k (4 cylinder turbo). A Camry LE V6 starts at $28k. Previously you said the Camry v6 was out of your budget so I'm curious how the Passat fits?

a) I was looking at the Camry XLE V6 more than the LE
b) VW's lease rate is 2.9% (or was it 1.9%?) for 48 months; Toyota's is way higher.

Honestly, I was as stunned as you now are when the VW sales guy started throwing numbers around. I thought maybe he wasn't including the taxes, but he claims he was.

Maybe they're being ridiculously optimistic about the residual?

I don't get it either. $430/month for a base auto Passat; around $450 when you add the Comfortline package is what he was saying, I think. And I think the crazy package with leather, auto climate, etc. was $540.

You seem to be a little all over the map on this one. Why not just get an Impala and be done with it. Auto climate is pretty over-rated. Its just one more computer module+sensors that can go wrong down the road.

Yes, I'm completely all over the map, and you know what? It'll continue. :)

The reason I was in a bit of a hurry with the car shopping was that I signed up for the GM auto show offer that gave 1% off GMAC leasing/financing if I bought/leased before June 3rd or so.

The only GM choices on which this is worth something are the Malibu (2.25% leasing) and Aura (1.25% leasing). (W bodies should be lower)

I've now ruled both of those out.

So that means that I'm in zero hurry to finalize a car deal now... :)

[new_vr]

Could be.


Maybe they're being ridiculously optimistic about the residual?

Even if they are...it works out in your favour, so run with it...
VW do have high resale value (even though as a vw fan, I still wouldn't recommend one over 5 years old to anyone)

[mr_raider]

Passats do better than Jettas in reliability, not made in Mexico and all that. You need to find a dealer with a generous courtesy car program and efficient service. Besides, I doubt anything serious will go wrong during 36 months of leasing.

Isn't the Passat 2.0T a bit slow?

[gherikill]

Passats are nice cars.

The Malibu has electric steering (common complaint if you read the reviews).

Have you tested a 2006 + Impala?

When are you going to try the Charger?

[new_vr]

99% sure Passat is electric steering too.
I haven't liked the cars I have driven with electric steering, but I haven't tried VW's implementation, just Chevy's and Toyotas

[VivienM]

The Malibu has electric steering (common complaint if you read the reviews).

Only on the 4 cyl. I was driving the V6, which has hydraulic steering.

The sales dude wanted me to try a 4 cyl. LT2. Didn't seem to know that a) there was a 4 cyl LTZ, and b) that his dealership was the only one in Toronto with one on their lot. (Oops - but this didn't inspire confidence in him)

Have you tested a 2006 + Impala?

Nope. If there's a third day of test driving, it may be on the list...

The Impala is very much the anti-Passat. Where the Passat has all kinds of extremely funky technology and a reliability history that gives me pause, the Impala is old-school on the inside and reliable enough for cab duty.

When are you going to try the Charger?

Not sure. It would have been on my list for yesterday, but the dealer in the same neighbourhood as the others didn't (according to its web site) have Charger inventory.

And I'm a bit... not sold... on the Charger. The LX cars strike me as very much fashion fads, and the fad ended in about 2006?

[VivienM]

Passats do better than Jettas in reliability, not made in Mexico and all that. You need to find a dealer with a generous courtesy car program and efficient service. Besides, I doubt anything serious will go wrong during 36 months of leasing.

48 months, not 36.

One concern with finding a good dealer, as mentioned earlier in this thread, is that I'll be moving to different cities in the next couple of years for work. So any good dealer found in one place is not going to be useful for long...

Isn't the Passat 2.0T a bit slow?

Passat 2.0T has a 0-60MPH time in the 7.x seconds range. I'm thinking 7.4 is the number I read somewhere?

Given the CVT Altima 2.5 was tested at 7.8 by one of the 'American' auto rags, and the V6 Ford Fusion is in that range, too, I think it's no slower than most of the alternatives. The Passat's curb weight is surprisingly low (~3200 lbs), which may explain part of it.

Sure, the 3.6L Epsilons are faster. Everything else discussed in this thread is not?

[ssainani]

48 months, not 36.

One concern with finding a good dealer, as mentioned earlier in this thread, is that I'll be moving to different cities in the next couple of years for work. So any good dealer found in one place is not going to be useful for long...



Passat 2.0T has a 0-60MPH time in the 7.x seconds range. I'm thinking 7.4 is the number I read somewhere?

Given the CVT Altima 2.5 was tested at 7.8 by one of the 'American' auto rags, and the V6 Ford Fusion is in that range, too, I think it's no slower than most of the alternatives. The Passat's curb weight is surprisingly low (~3200 lbs), which may explain part of it.

Sure, the 3.6L Epsilons are faster. Everything else discussed in this thread is not?

like i said in my PM to you.... not something you need to do...but updating the software on the passat makes a huge difference as well (aftermarket software)


do note tho -- that the passat engine is changing to a totally different 2.0t
the old one has 200hp....the new 211hp -- BUT the new one has something like 40 lbs or torque more

so make sure you get the new one

[VivienM]

Today's depressing schizophrenic observation:
- Honda Accord EX-L - $500/month (based on MSRP)
- VW Passat 2.0T Highline - $620/month (based on MSRP, though thanks to CCC I have a dealer quoting me quite a bit less)

Advantages for the Honda:
- it burns less gas
- it burns regular gas
- it costs ~$80-100 less (depending on how much bargaining room there is)
- it MAY cost less to service (then again, a friend just paid $220 for regular maintenance on a 1 year old Civic, so maybe not)
- price above is based on 24K/year, not 20K
- above-average compared to below-average reliability reputation

Disadvantages:
- I haven't test driven it yet.
- I hate Hondas.
- bumper to bumper warranty is only 3 years (but it's a Honda, so according to you guys a warranty is unnecessary? :))
- The 08 Accord, especially with the light interior, just seems to ooze old personness in a way that the VW doesn't
- VTEC vs turbo torque :)

Big unknown: inventory on both cars.

*sigh* I think you guys are right. I'll probably still be here in a year searching for the perfect car. :)

[VivienM]

Even if they are...it works out in your favour, so run with it...
VW do have high resale value (even though as a vw fan, I still wouldn't recommend one over 5 years old to anyone)

I got some more detailed numbers.

Residual on the Passat is 38%. Compare with a Buick Lucerne at 35%... and a Honda Accord at 46% (IIRC).

If VWs have high resale value, then those numbers sure don't show it...

[new_vr]

I got some more detailed numbers.

Residual on the Passat is 38%. Compare with a Buick Lucerne at 35%... and a Honda Accord at 46% (IIRC).

If VWs have high resale value, then those numbers sure don't show it...

http://eurocar-addicts.blogspot.com/2007/11/kelly-blue-books-2008-residual-value.html

[ssainani]

http://eurocar-addicts.blogspot.com/2007/11/kelly-blue-books-2008-residual-value.html

the passat does not fit the good resale value of vw sadly (my mother has one and totally loves it)

to the original poster...i think you need to actually drive the cars - otherwise you're becoming too much of an i-expert like the rest of this board.

it's possible that discounts offered by the sales person can counter some of the depreciation (on both the allure and passat if they interest you)

[ES_Revenge]

do note tho -- that the passat engine is changing to a totally different 2.0t
the old one has 200hp....the new 211hp -- BUT the new one has something like 40 lbs or torque more

so make sure you get the new one
Is that engine going in the Passat as well? You shouldn't be able to get it until the '09 model year though I thought. There is a revised 2.0T that started going in some models mid-08, and has all the improvements (timing chain, spin on oil filter, etc.) but doesn't have the additional power/torque that the 09 A4 (and possibly Passat?) will get.

The other thing about the revised engines is that no reprograms exist for them yet and VAG-COM 704.1 and earlier won't work on it either--you need the newer 8xx.x version.

Today's depressing schizophrenic observation:
- Honda Accord EX-L - $500/month (based on MSRP)
- VW Passat 2.0T Highline - $620/month (based on MSRP, though thanks to CCC I have a dealer quoting me quite a bit less)
Wow those are lease prices? Before tax or after? I guess they are based on MSRP though. What are the lease rates like on the two?

I'm not sure why you're considering a Honda given that you hate them. I hate them too, lol, and I never looked into buying one.

And you were worried you'd be looking "old" driving these cars... Just get a Lancer Ralliart, call it a day LOL.

Seriously though, I wouldn't really worry too much about not deciding. While some people (like me) know exactly what car they want, some people don't know what they want but get sold on a car at a dealership without even really liking it. At least being unsure and trying so many cars, you know you'll probably end up with something you really like :)

[VivienM]

Wow those are lease prices? Before tax or after? I guess they are based on MSRP though. What are the lease rates like on the two?

Honda - 3.9%, VW - 2.9%

And yes, those are 48 month lease prices, close to $0 due on signing, etc.

I'm not sure why you're considering a Honda given that you hate them. I hate them too, lol, and I never looked into buying one.

I'm not really considering it... just a bit horrified at the massive price difference for what, on paper, is an extremely comparable car.

[B0000rt]

Buy GM! 0% financing for 72months!

[ES_Revenge]

Honda - 3.9%, VW - 2.9%

And yes, those are 48 month lease prices, close to $0 due on signing, etc.

Not horrible rates, but if you're talking about $0 at signing, yeah I can see why they seem high. When you roll the upfront crap into the lease it's not good. Personally I would try to pay the upfront fees, well, upfront heh.


I'm not really considering it... just a bit horrified at the massive price difference for what, on paper, is an extremely comparable car.
Hmm interesting point. Is it really a difference in price or is it the leases that are making it that way? I.e. What are the MSRPs like on these cars? And then what are the invoices or markups like? Passat even has a lower rate and it's that much more expensive? What's the residual % like on them, is the Honda's significantly higher?

[VivienM]

Not horrible rates, but if you're talking about $0 at signing, yeah I can see why they seem high. When you roll the upfront crap into the lease it's not good. Personally I would try to pay the upfront fees, well, upfront heh.

Remember, I'm a recent grad. Don't have tons and tons of spare cash around in the short term. :)

Hmm interesting point. Is it really a difference in price or is it the leases that are making it that way? I.e. What are the MSRPs like on these cars? And then what are the invoices or markups like? Passat even has a lower rate and it's that much more expensive? What's the residual % like on them, is the Honda's significantly higher?

Well, the MSRP is about $3-4K less on the Honda. Maybe $5K.

Then the Honda residual is 46% (for 24K kms) versus 38% (for 20K kms) on the Passat.

The combination of the two makes for a killer lease price difference.

I don't know about Honda markups; there's about $3K on the Passat.

[new_vr]

I do think you should buy a Honda. After all the honda bashing, and w-body recommendations, it would only seem fitting.
I was actually thinking about an Accord (since there are no TDI's currently) but it was just too big for my tastes. (I think the passat would fall in the same category)

[canuck514]

Vivian, I am suprised that you do not like Hondas as their trunks are HUGE!!!!

[ES_Revenge]

Then the Honda residual is 46% (for 24K kms) versus 38% (for 20K kms) on the Passat.

The combination of the two makes for a killer lease price difference.
Yeah the relatively high residual on the Honda will definitely make a good difference in the per-month lease amount. Move to a 20k km/yr lease on the Honda and the residual will bump even more, and the payments will be even less.

If you really don't care to keep or buyback the car after the lease, the Honda seems like a much better deal (though I still wouldn't buy an Accord myself).

At the price of the Passat, you really would be better off with the A4, I think, even the Front Trak model.

[canuck514]

Audi A4 has a smaller trunk than the Honda or the passat

[bluedeville]

CONSIDER 2009 Sonata
Very pretty! :cheesygri

[VivienM]

Vivian, I am suprised that you do not like Hondas as their trunks are HUGE!!!!

How many times do I have to say that I don't care about trunk size UNLESS it's ridiculously substandard? (e.g. Altima coupe with 7.4 cu ft)

[HP_John]

I got some more detailed numbers.

Residual on the Passat is 38%. Compare with a Buick Lucerne at 35%... and a Honda Accord at 46% (IIRC).

If VWs have high resale value, then those numbers sure don't show it...

Just a note on residual values, manufacturers can set whatever residual values they want. Let's say based on past experience they expect a Passat to hold 50% of it's residual value after 4 yrs, they can set the residual value as little as 45% or as much as 55%.

There are many examples of a hot new car coming out, where it's expected to hold it's residual value very well, yet the lease residual values are set low, so we end up paying or "eating" a lot of the depreciation. The opposite can also happen in a really slow seller, where they subsidize the lease, or "eat" some of the cost to move units.

I remember reading, I think it was from Consumer Reports, that when they compared residual values at the time of lease & compared it to how much the cars actually depreciated 3 or 4 yrs later, that on avg, manufacturers almost always came out ahead. That is, the consumer paid more in depreciation through the lease than how much the car actually depreciated.

[Maxspeed]

its been a week and no updates....

[canuck514]

I think Vivien will be waiting for the new electric cars to hit the market in a few years. I just hope that they have a big trunk!

Seriously though, It should not take anyone 6 months or even longer to decide on a car. Its obvious that Vivian does not need a car otherwise he would of bought one along time ago.

Some buying tips for Vivian....Set a budget, visit all cars and decide on which car. There are not millions of cars to choose from.

Lets all chip in and get Vivian a car! anyone up for that.

[ES_Revenge]

Just a note on residual values, manufacturers can set whatever residual values they want. Let's say based on past experience they expect a Passat to hold 50% of it's residual value after 4 yrs, they can set the residual value as little as 45% or as much as 55%.
I think most of us know that residual is whatever they want to set it as but you bring about a better point about resale value and residual value I think. Resale and residual value are not necessarily one and the same. Resale is what the car will sell for/is worth on the market with a given amount of kms, age and with a given condition. Residual is just the amount of the car you're not paying for, over the term of the lease.

A high[er] residual is good for the person that cares nothing about buying back the car and just walks away at the end of a lease and leases another car. With a low[er] residual your payments end up being more and you're paying for "more of the car" than you would be with a lower residual. If there is a possibility that you might buyout the car at the end of the lease, then a low residual is not as much of a concern because you'd be buying the whole car [eventually] anyway. To be honest though, I don't think many leases end in buyouts (though I'm not sure).

I remember reading, I think it was from Consumer Reports, that when they compared residual values at the time of lease & compared it to how much the cars actually depreciated 3 or 4 yrs later, that on avg, manufacturers almost always came out ahead. That is, the consumer paid more in depreciation through the lease than how much the car actually depreciated.
Yes but at the same time you have to remember how many off-lease cars are sold at auction--I believe it's the majority of them. The money they get from the cars at auction is not as much as the resale value of the car either, so while I'm sure they are still making money in this area, it's probably not as much as it seems like it is just thinking of resale and depreciation.

The other thing again is, if you end up buying out the car at the end of the lease, it may work out okay for you because the buyout is then going to be less than the market value of the car, right? Of course you're still paying for the entire car this way just with different amounts at different times. However sometimes the lease rate is better than financing and if you manage to save the money of the buyout by the end of the lease, you'll end up doing better than if you had financed the car to begin with.

[torrento]

is the residual value based on MSRP or is it based on the negotiated price?

For simplicity, say a car has 50% residual and MSRP is 25000. I negotiate the price down to $20000 (yes, I live in dream-land). Would the residual value be $12500 (50% of MSRP) or $10000 (50% of Negotiated price)?

[frogger]

At the price of the Passat, you really would be better off with the A4, I think, even the Front Trak model.

I'm not sure he would like the way the A4 rides compared to the Passat. From what I remember it has more road feel.

[ES_Revenge]

is the residual value based on MSRP or is it based on the negotiated price?

For simplicity, say a car has 50% residual and MSRP is 25000. I negotiate the price down to $20000 (yes, I live in dream-land). Would the residual value be $12500 (50% of MSRP) or $10000 (50% of Negotiated price)?
It's a function of the price you're paying for the car, AFAIK. I.e. it's just a percentage of the price of the vehicle you're buying. If you pay MSRP then it would be that percentage of MSRP. If you pay a different amount it would be that same percentage of what you're paying.

So in your example the residual would be $10k, not $12.5k.

The only thing I think you can really do to change the residual is pick a different term or choose a different mileage option. For example, if you take a 3yr lease with 24,000km allowed per year, the residual will be less and your monthly payments higher. If you take the same lease with 20,000km/yr your residual goes up and your payments get lower.

The degree to which this happens is set by the manufacturer though. An example is an Audi lease where the residual goes up by 2% going from 24k down to 20k per year but then only goes down by another 1% if you go from 20k to 16k per year. Therefore it's not really worth it to go down to 16k unless you're absolutely certain you won't drive it over 16,000km per year.

[shammy]

I think you should take a look at the Dodge Charger. For what you are looking for the Charger might be a good fit. I know in the month of May Chrysler had a very good promotion on the Charger. I was at a dealership then and I believe you could get the Charger for about $350/mnth thats with $0 down other than tax, freight on delivery which I think that was about $2000. The Dodge website doesn't take into account of the promotion so it won't show you the current deal.

Lots of trunk space!

[AGR-1]

Residual Value is a percentage of MSRP.

I remember reading, I think it was from Consumer Reports, that when they compared residual values at the time of lease & compared it to how much the cars actually depreciated 3 or 4 yrs later, that on avg, manufacturers almost always came out ahead. That is, the consumer paid more in depreciation through the lease than how much the car actually depreciated.

Manufacturers come out behind not ahead, the lessee has the first option to purchase at the end of the lease term...there is a reason lessee do not exercise the purchase option. Usually the selling dealer has the second option on the lease return, and the lessor has the 3rd option.

If the residual value would be low, the lessee would sell his lease return without having to buy it, and make money with the vehicle.