'Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign!'

[Bullseye]

I've been seeing that bumper sticker a lot lately, always on Fords. Are they handing them out at the Ford factory here in Oakville, I wonder?

If this statement applies to cars, then we as Canadians have no choice but to buy foreign, as there is no Canadian automaker that I know of.

My guess is that this is a CAW union ploy, to try to ramp up sentiment for buying domestics. Rings pretty hollow when there are Toyota and Honda plants right here in Ontario as well, though!

Anyone know the story behind this?

[Andro]

There is a reason why people buy foreign.........unless they can come up with something in similar style, built quality, reliability then i'll continue buying foreign.

[untaka]

I'm still confused, I know the history of the terms "Import and Domestic" how ever they do not apply anymore. Hondas and Toyotas are not imports, since they are not imported. I believe if its IMPORTED from another country then it can be considered an import. If we go by the old ruling and say the location of the head office, then technically every car is an import.

[new_vr]

Honda and Toyota actually do provide a lot of Canadian jobs, so that's cool.
The bad ones are Korean and European cars.

[cwb27]

The bumper sticker SHOULD read...

"If your Vehicle Identification Number, AKA VIN, does not start with numbers 1 thru 5, you're potentially jeopardizing the North American Automobile Industry"

[Bullseye]

The bumper sticker SHOULD read...

"If your Vehicle Identification Number, AKA VIN, does not start with numbers 1 thru 5, you're potentially jeopardizing the North American Automobile Industry"

:lol:

Doesn't have that same ring to it, though, eh?

[boyoflondon]

You can tell that the not the brightest bunch at CAW are the ones behind the stupid stickers ...

I guess they didn't get the memo that Toyota and Honda both contribute to our economy and employ people and continue to create jobs (new toyota plant in woodstock + all the spin-off jobs) ...

[KawaiiTentacleBeast]

I care as much about their jobs as they care about mine (i.e. fsck 'em), so I am getting a kick out of these replies. Come to Calgary, Tim Horton's is hiring. Ontarians are too rich anyways.

[seftonm]

Have you seen any of the stickers on the Ford Fusion, which is built in Mexico? That would make me laugh.

[Bullseye]

I Googled the bumper sticker, some funny blog entries about this.

Looks like the UAW union in the US is endorsing it. At least it makes some sense there, where they actually have automakers! Looks silly on Canadian cars. I also notice that the 'UAW' logo is not on the Canadian stickers/magnets, so someone must have copied it and is distributing it up here.

[ItemFinder]

Out of a job yet? Design better domestic products!

[themanfromvlad]

I just had the "pleasure" of being in a Chrysler 300 today. The interior materials, design and quality was abysmal. US auto companies need to step it up, or I'll continue to buy Japanese cars.

[gherikill]

At least the domestic comapneis are headquartered in North America. And as Canadaians we are tied to the the hip of the US. If the US sinks we will follow soon after.

It is still in Canadians interest to buy big 3 to stimulate the local economy.

You also have to look at all the parts manufacturers like Magna, they primarily build parts for the big 3.

So if you are happy with a few assembly line jobs from honda and Toyota - keep on buying.

That is like saying that Malaysians should buy Nike shoes because they make them in sweat shops locally.

[BartBandy]

I'm still waiting for an apology from US automakers for foisting such crap on us for so many years. Until I get an apology (especially from Ford), I'm not setting foot in one of their dealerships again.

[new_vr]

So if you are happy with a few assembly line jobs from honda and Toyota - keep on buying.

In my area, Honda employs approx 4200 employees directly (according to wikipedia). There are also a lot of businesses around here that do work for honda, not to mention the spinoff economy from having that many well paid workers.

[gilboman]

At least the domestic comapneis are headquartered in North America. And as Canadaians we are tied to the the hip of the US. If the US sinks we will follow soon after.

It is still in Canadians interest to buy big 3 to stimulate the local economy.

You also have to look at all the parts manufacturers like Magna, they primarily build parts for the big 3.

So if you are happy with a few assembly line jobs from honda and Toyota - keep on buying.



why should i have to suffer and buy an inferior product from a company that is cutting its canadian labor force when i can buy honda/toyota with a superior product and is contributing positively?

[VivienM]

I'm still waiting for an apology from US automakers for foisting such crap on us for so many years. Until I get an apology (especially from Ford), I'm not setting foot in one of their dealerships again.

At least Ford's PRODUCTS have improved. The Fusion is a reasonable car, unlike its disgraceful competitors from Chrysler...

(And don't get me started on GM's current lineup. The W body will go down in history as the last great car they've produced, I think...)

[gherikill]

why should i have to suffer and buy an inferior product from a company that is cutting its canadian labor force when i can buy honda/toyota with a superior product and is contributing positively?

IMO the product is not inferior. You get a lot more bang for your buck when buying domestic(depreciation notwithstanding)

What I am saying is that if you look at the impact on the entire Canadian economy the big 3 have a much larger spin off effect than Honda/Toyota.

It is a free country though, so do as you like.

[Bullseye]

At least the domestic comapneis are headquartered in North America. And as Canadaians we are tied to the the hip of the US. If the US sinks we will follow soon after.

It is still in Canadians interest to buy big 3 to stimulate the local economy.

You also have to look at all the parts manufacturers like Magna, they primarily build parts for the big 3.

So if you are happy with a few assembly line jobs from honda and Toyota - keep on buying.

That is like saying that Malaysians should buy Nike shoes because they make them in sweat shops locally.


I can't imagine a head office in the US affects our economy much. I agree that our economies are tied, with US sales making up much of the 40% of our GDP that comes from outside the country, but the automakers are not a large enough component of the US economy to make much difference.

In terms of total jobs, the Big 3 still provide more local jobs, but they are rapidly cutting them, while the Asian makers are adding more and building new facilities.

[bonerhaus]

I really disagree with the whole import/domestic argument. Over the years I have owned both and have had good and bad cars from both. The cheapest and most reliable car I've ever owned was an older celica I got for $100. When that was written off I replaced it with a newer celica, and that has been the worst car I've owned yet.

This is the same argument that Canadian auto dealers try to use but if they offered me a decent price in the first place, I wouldn't even think about going to the US to buy vehicles. If you can put a few extra grand in your pocket though, is it even a question?

[bembol]

I gave them (Domestics) a chance when I bought my first car, '99 Pontiac Grand AM/V6, my family/friends all told me to go with Honda Civic but I preferred the look of the re-designed Grand AM, more HP.

Never again.

My car spent so much time at Service that I traded it in after two years for my '02 Acura RSX Premium.

[squid]

So, since I live in Vancouver which probably derives more economic benefits from the imports that roll through our port, am I being a poor Vancouver citizen by buying domestics?

[Tomy]

not when they're making 32$ an hour assembling Fords...

i keep wondering why their costs of making a car is so high.. it's because people in Canada make 32$ an hour doing assembly...

and I wish I had that kind of pay :(

[untaka]

IMO the product is not inferior. You get a lot more bang for your buck when buying domestic(depreciation notwithstanding)

What I am saying is that if you look at the impact on the entire Canadian economy the big 3 have a much larger spin off effect than Honda/Toyota.

It is a free country though, so do as you like.

By your own definition of import/domestic technically the big 3 are imports, your entire argument goes out the window.

[hoopsandyoyo]

I'm still confused, I know the history of the terms "Import and Domestic" how ever they do not apply anymore. Hondas and Toyotas are not imports, since they are not imported. I believe if its IMPORTED from another country then it can be considered an import. If we go by the old ruling and say the location of the head office, then technically every car is an import.

from a car perspective there is no difference - both are 'made at home' (somewhat).
from a business perspective it changes. Honda/Toyotas have HQs based in japan verus the US for GM and the other big three. Coporate tax dolloars from your purchase go to the respective governments which trickle back down into the countrys industries.
but to me.....big three is just a horriable patch work business. unions will likely ruin their business.

[gherikill]

By your own definition of import/domestic technically the big 3 are imports, your entire argument goes out the window.

The widely accepted definition is:

Domestic = Big 3 = GM, Ford, Chrysler
Import = Everyone else

[mr_raider]

not when they're making 32$ an hour assembling Fords...

i keep wondering why their costs of making a car is so high.. it's because people in Canada make 32$ an hour doing assembly...

and I wish I had that kind of pay :(

Absolutely false. Until the recent high dollar, it was cheaper to produce a car in Canada than in the US. The number one expense for big three automakers is health benefits and generous pensions for their workers, not the measly 32$ an hour they pay. That's why Canada is such an attarctive place to make cars.

LAst I checked, the only reason CAW/UAW are against Toyo-Honda-Nissan is because their unions never managed to penetrate those plants, and are pissed about it.

If the big three are in the state they are today, they need only to blame their sloppy design teams, and the unions. Not the car buying public.

[at1212b]

Oh how we like to make ourselves feel alot more important then we really are. The majority of the 'domestics' that are sold is sold to the US so we can try to make ourselves feel important, but at the end of the day, it isn't going to do much. Ok, maybe save 100 jobs or so.

The Canadian market is miniscule (California itself has more cars then Canada and Mexico combined). The #1 vehicle for the past decade or so has been the Ford F150, and followed by the Civic for the car, which is the area that the 'Big' 3 have been lacking for a very long time. Dodge Caravan is also a strong seller, followed by other pick ups, including the Impala.

The only compact domestic I ever see nowadays more then 5 years old is a cavalier or sunfire (and who here would think of buying a higher mileage older cavalier, sunfire, focus, neon:eek: vs the same Civic or Corolla - this reflects the overall perception and reliability that took years to filter down to today resulting in the impact of sales) so it shows that the Civic at the very least earned its spot.

And try to argue with the parent, student, worker who has had to take their car in to the shop enough times just to support the 'domestic' brands.

Its also funny that the UAW is also out to fend themselves, against the likes of the CAW, yet the CAW will not openly acknowledge that they fighting over the scraps taken from othe UAW. Talk about brotherly love. You think the UAW will close one of its plants just to save a factory here? :rolleyes:

[gilboman]

IMO the product is not inferior. You get a lot more bang for your buck when buying domestic(depreciation notwithstanding)



well lets take a look at the subcompact market.

toyota has yaris, honda fit, nissan versa.

what does GM have? rebadged daewoos called the aveo , chrysler ? nothing, ford nothing

compact market

GM=Cobalt, Ford= Focus, Chrysler =Cobalt

Toytota= Corolla, Honda = Civic, Mazda = mazda 3, nissan= sentra

it's just sad looking at the offerings of the Big 3 in these markets which is a huge chunk of the canadian marketplace (best selling sedan is the civic in canada).

and lets not get into the crossover/mini suv's where the Rav4 is a few steps above others let alone the Big 3

[yeea]

I have been trying to help my dad purchase an 08 Cadillac CTS since Jan 4, 2008. We have purchase agreement in hand and the Dealership cannot deliver. It is 5 months after the fact now. Dealership blames GM for manufacturing issues. We have logged a formal complaint against GM and have now waited for almost a week for a resolution. I've been bounced between 3 representatives in GM to look for a status. This is a ridiculous way to buy a car. There is a reason why domestics are going down the gutter. Crap cars, crap service, who wants to pay for crap when there is something else across the street that is just a plain better product? My dad is a diehard GM guy for some reason and unfortunately we'll be buying a GM regardless, although not from the same dealership. They sure don't make it easy to purchase a car from them.

[ferkel]

GM announced Windsor plant closing, another 1,400 losing their jobs.

Also if you look in a GM, Ford, Chrysler parking lot, you'll see lots of imported cars. If the workers aren't confident in buying their own cars, why should I?

[Dixon007]

not when they're making 32$ an hour assembling Fords...

i keep wondering why their costs of making a car is so high.. it's because people in Canada make 32$ an hour doing assembly...

and I wish I had that kind of pay :(
Here is in Brampton Plant, People make 33.75$ all the way up to 77$. If they reduced it to 20$ a hour, they would save so much money. no jobs would be cut.

I can;t believe the Gm plant didn;t see this coming. 4 speed automatic transmission plant shutting down. We live in a world of 5 speed. 6 speed automatic, They should have gone with the flow like other companies.

[CompWizrd]

I've seen a variant of "Out of a Job Yet? Keep following Buzz"

Seen a couple Aveo's with the stickers on them.. which are imported from Korea

[ferkel]

Korean's are expected to be the new leader in Quality and Price. They kicked the Japanese in electronics, and soon to be cars. The Japanese were originally makers of rust buckets before also...

[WontonTiger]

The bumper sticker SHOULD read...

"If your Vehicle Identification Number, AKA VIN, does not start with numbers 1 thru 5, you're potentially jeopardizing the North American Automobile Industry"

LOL, you should patent that, I bet you could make some money.

LOL, that's great.

[malaco0219]

There is a reason why people buy foreign.........unless they can come up with something in similar style, built quality, reliability then i'll continue buying foreign.

+1 Can't Agree more. I love Euro and Jap cars, and IMO I don't see how domestics are comparable.

[m4gician]

I've been seeing that bumper sticker a lot lately, always on Fords. Are they handing them out at the Ford factory here in Oakville, I wonder?

If this statement applies to cars, then we as Canadians have no choice but to buy foreign, as there is no Canadian automaker that I know of.

My guess is that this is a CAW union ploy, to try to ramp up sentiment for buying domestics. Rings pretty hollow when there are Toyota and Honda plants right here in Ontario as well, though!

Anyone know the story behind this?

god damn labour unions...how hard is it really to get skills and get paid less for them? I mean just offer job security and unions are done with.

[weedb0y]

I just had the "pleasure" of being in a Chrysler 300 today. The interior materials, design and quality was abysmal. US auto companies need to step it up, or I'll continue to buy Japanese cars.

Check out the new CTS ;)

GM's latest is pretty darn decent.

[weedb0y]

I have been trying to help my dad purchase an 08 Cadillac CTS since Jan 4, 2008. We have purchase agreement in hand and the Dealership cannot deliver. It is 5 months after the fact now. Dealership blames GM for manufacturing issues. We have logged a formal complaint against GM and have now waited for almost a week for a resolution. I've been bounced between 3 representatives in GM to look for a status. This is a ridiculous way to buy a car. There is a reason why domestics are going down the gutter. Crap cars, crap service, who wants to pay for crap when there is something else across the street that is just a plain better product? My dad is a diehard GM guy for some reason and unfortunately we'll be buying a GM regardless, although not from the same dealership. They sure don't make it easy to purchase a car from them.

I've read the similar horror stories from Import dealers as well. Your point? Change the dealer. Its not a marriage.

[nalababe]

Check out the new CTS ;)

GM's latest is pretty darn decent.

I like the CTS...

The Malibu and Fusion are more than decent challengers for the Accord and Camry (given the price premium on the latter).

[stealth]

The bumper sticker is pro-union propoganda, no more, no less.
The real agenda is to keep supporting over paid union ee's who couldnt get a job in a fair market.

Its the same agenda as a "Support our troops" bumper sticker (who's real agenda is support an unjust war so our oil company execs and cronies at Halliburton et al can continue to reap billions on the backs of taxpayers.).

[wannaCRV]

I have friends in Windsor, these bumper stickers have been around for the past few years. I have to say as I come into town I always hope to feel invisible in my Honda!! I know my friend had new Murano keyed 3 times...
coincidence??!!

[bobby5]

I have friends in Windsor, these bumper stickers have been around for the past few years. I have to say as I come into town I always hope to feel invisible in my Honda!! I know my friend had new Murano keyed 3 times...coincidence??!!

hhmm....typical manufacturing-town mentality.... so easily influenced by the corporate propaganda

On another note, someone said that the big 3 didn;t have much small car choice available. That's expected, since Canadian market is too small, and the cars themselves are too small for the Americans :cheesygri

American manufacturers are also very consumption-oriented in that they try not to make their cars last too long, to increase product turnover. Hence the well-known reliability/built issues.
They are not that proud of their brain child, compared to Europeans/Japanese. To them, it's just another disposable product
Although all that may be changing.

[plucky duck]

hhmm....typical manufacturing-town mentality.... so easily influenced by the corporate propaganda

On another note, someone said that the big 3 didn;t have much small car choice available. That's expected, since Canadian market is too small, and the cars themselves are too small for the Americans :cheesygri

American manufacturers are also very consumption-oriented in that they try not to make their cars last too long, to increase product turnover. Hence the well-known reliability/built issues.
They are not that proud of their brain child, compared to Europeans/Japanese. To them, it's just another disposable product
Although all that may be changing.

Same goes for appliances. Back in the days they were built durable and built to last. Now they are built to die fast or with a certain life service in mind.

[gilboman]

Korean's are expected to be the new leader in Quality and Price. They kicked the Japanese in electronics, and soon to be cars. The Japanese were originally makers of rust buckets before also...

i dont think the koreans have kicked the japanese in electronics yet.

[gilboman]

Check out the new CTS ;)

GM's latest is pretty darn decent.

not really... they need to make cars that people actually buy.. how many CTS will they sell in a year compared to a Camry or civic?

as long as GM continues to sell cars like the aveo, cobalt, they are not going anywhere. but out of the big 3, they atleast have some decent midsize offering and are smart enough to bring in some european cars and not basterdize them with N/A GM stuff.

[Asad_A203]

Well if domestics didn't dedicate a whole factory to producing outdated tranmissions; this probably wouldn't be a problem.

[VivienM]

as long as GM continues to sell cars like the aveo, cobalt, they are not going anywhere. but out of the big 3, they atleast have some decent midsize offering and are smart enough to bring in some european cars and not basterdize them with N/A GM stuff.

Decent midsize offerings? The Epsilons' European heritage is a minus in my book, not a plus. The car feels too narrow on the inside... and the Aura, at least, doesn't feel right to me. Haven't tried the Malibu. Had a 4 cyl rental G6 for a couple of days in Calgary, it was adequate as basic transportation (they ran out of "full size", i.e. W bodies, and had to downsize me...)... certainly way better than a Cobalt/G5, but that means little.

Give me a W body any day, though of course now that the Grand Prix is out of production, that's not really an option...

[izzyzz]

Yes, continue to buy US imports and encourage them further to release crappy quality/blandly designed cars.

OR

Invest your money into good-quality cars, so that Honda/Toyota/etc. expand even more into our market, build more factories and have a bigger spin on the economy.

Gotta love the narrowminded view of some union leaders. Suppose all Fords, Dodges, etc. disappear off the face of the Earth tomorrow. Do you really think it will ruin our economy?? It may result in a short-term downturn, but others will move into the freed up market segment quickly. That's free market for you and that's what happens right now, albeit no so drastically. :)

[untaka]

The widely accepted definition is:

Domestic = Big 3 = GM, Ford, Chrysler
Import = Everyone else

Yes I could see this IF we were American. However its just wrong so we do we still refer to it as such?

[mau108]

most if not all honda/acura and toyotas are built in north america so whats the point? the jobs still belong to lazy americans (that includes canadians).

Honestly after honda and toyota started assembling cars in NA, build quality has gone to the shitters.

[gherikill]

Yes I could see this IF we were American. However its just wrong so we do we still refer to it as such?

We are North American. And we have so much in common with the US that I think Domestic is a good term.

[untaka]

We are North American. And we have so much in common with the US that I think Domestic is a good term.

But thats besides the point, either the car is imported or not. So when you say its an import, it means it was imported from another country. I think those terms need to be updated, maybe in the early years it follows suit.

[at1212b]

i dont think the koreans have kicked the japanese in electronics yet.

In computer chip and LCD technology, yes they have, (ie. Samsung also overtaking Sony in many areas)

[gherikill]

But thats besides the point, either the car is imported or not. So when you say its an import, it means it was imported from another country. I think those terms need to be updated, maybe in the early years it follows suit.


If you want to be robotic in your definitions, sure.

[new_vr]

most if not all honda/acura and toyotas are built in north america so whats the point? the jobs still belong to lazy americans (that includes canadians).

Honestly after honda and toyota started assembling cars in NA, build quality has gone to the shitters.
Civics have been built in Alliston since the 80's. Being one of the few old enough to have had a pre-Alliston civic(2nd gen civic), I can yell you, it was not that great of a car.

[Bidou78]

I for one am happy the big three are in big trouble, it looks good on them and they should wear it proudly considering all of the lack luster crap they have been pushing out over the years! The big three have acted like they knew what was best for their buyers and instead of asking us they told us what we wanted and now they want us to bail them out!? Anyone remember the GM not even a drop of gas EV1? Instead of fuel economy, they opted for fuel consumption and now they have a real problem moving anything that doesn't get 25 mpg. I'll avoid buying domestic like the plague even if it means that a fellow canuck is out of work.:twisted:

[ES_Revenge]

You have to give this up already. The W-body was not that great.

[QUOTE=Tomy;6822296]not when they're making 32$ an hour assembling Fords...

i keep wondering why their costs of making a car is so high.. it's because people in Canada make 32$ an hour doing assembly...

and I wish I had that kind of pay :(
Some make less, some make more. Some with senoirity and who work a lot of overtime, make a good living on a yearly basis. Some don't make as much. They have relatively good benefits and pension programs though.

The whole attitude of "they shouldn't make that because I don't" doesn't fly with me though.

I would rather pay more for a car when the parts are from and it is assembled in, a place where there is quality to the end product. Eventually when all these plants shut down where do you think they are going make these cars? Probably in China where almost everything else is made, where workers get paid nothing at all and the product quality is so bad it's unreal.

The widely accepted definition is:

Domestic = Big 3 = GM, Ford, Chrysler
Import = Everyone else
Perhaps in the past but due to "globalisation" and the fact that parts can originate from anywhere, a lot of people are changing their opinion on what "import" means as can be seen from the sentiments on this very thread.


GM announced Windsor plant closing, another 1,400 losing their jobs.

Also if you look in a GM, Ford, Chrysler parking lot, you'll see lots of imported cars. If the workers aren't confident in buying their own cars, why should I?
You can't possibly expect everyone that works at these places to own a car made by the company they work for. Does someone that works for a home builder always live in a place built by the company they work for? Does someone that works at a restaurant only eat food at that restaurant? Etc.


Here is in Brampton Plant, People make 33.75$ all the way up to 77$. If they reduced it to 20$ a hour, they would save so much money. no jobs would be cut.
ROFL. So you're saying people should just take a 40-75% pay cut just bam all at once and be able to keep living properly? I'd like to see you take that kind of pay cut at your job and see what happens to you. Truth is most people have things like a mortgage, car loan, etc. to pay, you cut their pay be 40% and they're on the street. But I guess since they still have a job that's great news? There's a reason why you don't see pay cuts like that every happen in real life--they're not realistic. It's far more reality to see people get laid off and plants close altogether. Neither is "good", no, but you cut every employees pay, all at once, it isn't going to work out.

I can;t believe the Gm plant didn;t see this coming. 4 speed automatic transmission plant shutting down. We live in a world of 5 speed. 6 speed automatic, They should have gone with the flow like other companies.
I think they did. I mean the 4spd autos are long out of date and GM has been using them continually for a while, they had to have known. I'm sure the issue was just whether they were going to re-tool the plant for other transmissions or shut it down, and it looks like they did the latter. Just because they will shut that plant down doesn't mean they won't be making just as many transmissions, it just means they're making them elsewhere.

Yes, continue to buy US imports and encourage them further to release crappy quality/blandly designed cars.
:rolleyes:

Invest your money into good-quality cars, so that Honda/Toyota/etc. expand even more into our market, build more factories and have a bigger spin on the economy.
Oh yeah only Toyota and Honda make good-quality cars, I forgot the rule of "Stick with a Civic, Corolla" :rolleyes:

How do you know any of these companies are going to "build more factories" here at all? If anything manufacturers want to decrease manufacturing costs and building stuff here as opposed to say China, isn't exactly decreasing costs.

Gotta love the narrowminded view of some union leaders. Suppose all Fords, Dodges, etc. disappear off the face of the Earth tomorrow. Do you really think it will ruin our economy?? It may result in a short-term downturn, but others will move into the freed up market segment quickly. That's free market for you and that's what happens right now, albeit no so drastically. :)
Don't you think your passing off the effects on the economy as minimal are equally narrow-minded? Or no? Shut down every auto plant in NA and don't worry it will just be a small short-term downturn? LMAO.

The free market left to be totally free is going to result in everything being made in China, as crappily as possible, and then sold here eventually for the same money as we were paying for quality products to begin with. And the environmental impact? Wow, lets not even talk about that. Junking cars after like 2 years because they are made so poorly is not exactly going to clean up the place.

I for one am happy the big three are in big trouble, it looks good on them and they should wear it proudly considering all of the lack luster crap they have been pushing out over the years!
Again opinion.

The big three have acted like they knew what was best for their buyers and instead of asking us they told us what we wanted and now they want us to bail them out!? Anyone remember the GM not even a drop of gas EV1?
Yeah so what? The EV1, particularly at the time, was not economically viable and not really a practical car for average drivers. Even today do you see any totally electric cars? Not really. And technology has gone a long way since then as well. The rate of battery use would be much higher with these, with battery replacements being expensive and common. Manufacturing and disposing of batteries is not an energy-free process either. Creating the electricity to charge them is also not obtained out of thin air.

Again, today technology has changed and a fully-electric car may be more viable, but we still haven't seen them. We may see them soon but the EV1 was certainly not the solution to anyone's problems.

Instead of fuel economy, they opted for fuel consumption and now they have a real problem moving anything that doesn't get 25 mpg. I'll avoid buying domestic like the plague even if it means that a fellow canuck is out of work.:twisted:
Yeah I'm glad you feel that way and glad you are "happy" because if everyone has that attitude and keeps it up long enough, you'll start to see what real crap quality cars are like when everything starts coming out of places like China. Great idea to ruin your own economy and fund communist places who are probably getting a great laugh making all their money in the capitalist world.

Eventually jobs will become more and more crappy in general (that's already been happening for years, unemployment will rise, the poor will get poorer, the rich will get richer; but at least you'll be happy :rolleyes:

Maybe move to China where all the money will be but oops, you can't make any of the money because it's communist and oops you lost your freedom and will probably get shot by the state for voicing an opinion about anything, lol. Good times for all. :rolleyes:

Perhaps I'm exaggerating or have an overly poor outlook; and if you guessed I don't exactly like China you'd be right; but anyway I don't see how elminiating jobs and worsening the economy in your own country makes you happy? :confused:

Anyway not trying to "argue" with anyone at all here, just my $0.02. I have to admit my next car will more than likely be German-made, but that's not really for the reasons that people have said here (opinons about quality and the like).

[Tomy]

Here is in Brampton Plant, People make 33.75$ all the way up to 77$. If they reduced it to 20$ a hour, they would save so much money. no jobs would be cut.



yea i was thinking of the same thing.. but apparently.. 20$ isn't enough to feed their family and their 3000 ft home...

most if not all honda/acura and toyotas are built in north america so whats the point? the jobs still belong to lazy americans (that includes canadians).

Honestly after honda and toyota started assembling cars in NA, build quality has gone to the shitters.

lazy Canadians making so much.. i should look into a job there. :)

You have to give this up already. The W-body was not that great.


Some make less, some make more. Some with senoirity and who work a lot of overtimethe, make a good living on a yearly basis. Some don't make as much. They have relatively good benefits and pension programs though.

The whole attitude of "they shouldn't make that because I don't" doesn't fly with me though.



i agree that it might be a bit jealousy..but how come we have to deal with 4-5 years uni when they keep complaining about their salary/vacation pay whatever and go on striking.. take the TTC example.. they were making well enough, yet they have the guts to go on strike when the macro economy isn't doing so well..

but i can't see why they can start at a salary that high tho.. as some articles already pointed out..some guy out of highschool can start the job and make that much... the guy is 23-25 and he already owns a 3000 ft home..

[mr_raider]

Honestly after honda and toyota started assembling cars in NA, build quality has gone to the shitters.

Obviously you never had the privilege of owning an early 80s Toyota product, built in Japan.

[gherikill]

After reading all of these comments about "lazy" Canadians, it makes me wonder...

Is there no such thing as a Canadian patriot anymore? Whatever happened to being a proud Canadian?

[gilboman]

After reading all of these comments about "lazy" Canadians, it makes me wonder...

Is there no such thing as a Canadian patriot anymore? Whatever happened to being a proud Canadian?

what does this have to do with patriotism?

[VivienM]

You have to give this up already. The W-body was not that great.

It's a lot better than the Epsilons...

[Bazooka Joe]

what does this have to do with patriotism?

Agreed. I'd have no problems using "lazy" and "great" in the same sentance. In fact, it's being lazy that makes me great :D

[gherikill]

It's a lot better than the Epsilons...

I agree. The Epsilons are way too narrow.

[VivienM]

I agree. The Epsilons are way too narrow.

Yup. It feels ... cramped... in there.

And the Aura XR is tuned too 'sporty', too. Steering is too stiff, ride too firm/harsh/not-sure-the-right-word, etc. And the seats are a disaster.

Sad, too, because $$$$$$-wise, those things are great value. Aura XR (with the 3.6L, leather, etc.) is the same price roughly as a 2.5SL Altima... but the Altima FEELS right in a way that the Aura just feels wrong.

[ES_Revenge]

Yup. It feels ... cramped... in there.

And the Aura XR is tuned too 'sporty', too.
LOL "too sporty"? Jokes. So you'd rather a larger car that's less sporty. Not exactly the makings of a driver but hey whatever floats your boat ;)

Sad, too, because $$$$$$-wise, those things are great value. Aura XR (with the 3.6L, leather, etc.) is the same price roughly as a 2.5SL Altima... but the Altima FEELS right in a way that the Aura just feels wrong.
There I totally disagree. You'd have to compare the Altima with the VQ35xx to the Aura with the LY7; the 2.5L Altima doesn't hold a candle, just on engine. The Altima is nice enough and if you were comparing 4cyl-to-4cyl and V6-to-V6 then yeah you could have arguments both ways. But c'mon now, the 2.5L Altima compared to the LY7 Aura? Seems like a stretch to me.

[notanexpert]

...
Honestly after honda and toyota started assembling cars in NA, build quality has gone to the shitters.
This is not true at all. Acutally, for a long while the Corollas sold here were a mix, some built in Japan and some in Cambridge. Those built in Cambridge were actually found to be better (something about better quality of the steel going into them). The quality parity was one of the key reasons why they could move Lexus RX production here.
I think the #1 determining factor for North American quality of assembly is unions: union built car=crap, car from non-unionized factory=good.

[VivienM]

LOL "too sporty"? Jokes. So you'd rather a larger car that's less sporty. Not exactly the makings of a driver but hey whatever floats your boat ;)

Well, 'sporty' may not be the right word, but there's something wrong with the way the Aura feels to me. It's the seats, the steering, and the ride...

All I can say is, I drove a 2.5S Altima, the Aura XR, and a Ford Fusion SEL V6 in the same afternoon, and while the Aura was the best car spec-wise, it was also the one that made the worst impression on me in terms of the test drive.


There I totally disagree. You'd have to compare the Altima with the VQ35xx to the Aura with the LY7; the 2.5L Altima doesn't hold a candle, just on engine. The Altima is nice enough and if you were comparing 4cyl-to-4cyl and V6-to-V6 then yeah you could have arguments both ways. But c'mon now, the 2.5L Altima compared to the LY7 Aura? Seems like a stretch to me.

I'm comparing based on monthly payments for comparable financing options! If you're shopping on a budget, and your budget permits either a LY7 Aura or a 2.5SL Altima, then what's the comparison will be between! A comparable 3.5L Altima will be $100-150/month more...

More importantly, the reason I'm looking at the XR in the first place? GM's MBA morons don't make a properly-equipped 4 cyl. Typical domestic automaker crap, assuming people who want luxury features also want big engines. (Well, okay, I want big engines, but I can't afford them when they're made by Japanese automakers)

They've solved that with the Malibu (which I haven't driven), and while I tend to like the Malibu:
a) I keep being advised it's an 'old man's car. The Altima or perhaps Mazda6 seem the most... youthful... options in this class?
b) I am sick and tired of that Epsilonic interior. Memo to GM: when sharing platforms, design DIFFERENT interiors like you did with the W bodies! And please, PUT A FOUR SPOKE STEERING WHEEL. The $35K Aura/Malibu should not have the same POS wheel as a Cobalt.

[frogger]

Canadian TV show Malibu review..
http://drivingtv.canada.com/CarReviewVideos.php?epID=518

And the Aura..
http://drivingtv.canada.com/CarReviewVideos.php?ccID=491

[bobby5]

...Some make less, some make more. Some with senoirity and who work a lot of overtime, make a good living on a yearly basis. Some don't make as much. They have relatively good benefits and pension programs though.The whole attitude of "they shouldn't make that because I don't" doesn't fly with me though.
I would rather pay more for a car when the parts are from and it is assembled in, a place where there is quality to the end product.

It's about the value of a job. You could be turning screws and snapping plastics for 20 years, still I don't think it should worth 70+/hr just because of 20 years.
Unless there's job progression.


You can't possibly expect everyone that works at these places to own a car made by the company they work for. Does someone that works for a home builder always live in a place built by the company they work for? Does someone that works at a restaurant only eat food at that restaurant? Etc.

Well I think the manufacturing workers should, or they can shove the buy foreign bs sticker up their ***



ROFL. So you're saying people should just take a 40-75% pay cut just bam all at once and be able to keep living properly? I'd like to see you take that kind of pay cut at your job and see what happens to you. Truth is most people have things like a mortgage, car loan, etc. to pay, you cut their pay be 40% and they're on the street.
Too bad if one doesn't save for rainy days. Your lifestyle is not a rights.


Great idea to ruin your own economy and fund communist places who are probably getting a great laugh making all their money in the capitalist world.
We only have ourselves to blame for wanting cheap products and allowing companies to cut costs however they please.



I have to admit my next car will more than likely be German-made, but that's not really for the reasons that people have said here (opinons about quality and the like).
Mind if I ask what makes you go for a German-made choice?

[stuff352]

This is just ********... i have known people with all makes have problems with their cars. The guys that own honda/toyotas usually have a story about a domestic car they owned and how much trouble it was but i actually don't remember them ever owning one. Then the complain about how cheap american cars feel - they usually talk about sunfire/neons/cavaliers but fail to realize that they cost half as much as a civic or corrolla. Then you got the american(or confused canadian) nutcases that preach about buying domestic cars but continue to shop at walmart and watch their sony/toshiba/panasonic televisions.

[frogger]

Then you got the american(or confused canadian) nutcases that preach about buying domestic cars but continue to shop at walmart and watch their sony/toshiba/panasonic televisions.

LOL its too late for TV's, the infamous Japanese dumping of them on the NA market made sure of that.

[ES_Revenge]

I'm comparing based on monthly payments for comparable financing options! If you're shopping on a budget, and your budget permits either a LY7 Aura or a 2.5SL Altima, then what's the comparison will be between! A comparable 3.5L Altima will be $100-150/month more...
I agree in that I think the Altima V6 is overpriced. The price range of the Altima is huge--from the 2.5L base up to the loaded 3.5L it can be over $10k difference. That's why I often say the Maxima is pointless nowaday, but that's besides the point.

They've solved that with the Malibu (which I haven't driven), and while I tend to like the Malibu:
a) I keep being advised it's an 'old man's car. The Altima or perhaps Mazda6 seem the most... youthful... options in this class?
b) I am sick and tired of that Epsilonic interior. Memo to GM: when sharing platforms, design DIFFERENT interiors like you did with the W bodies! And please, PUT A FOUR SPOKE STEERING WHEEL. The $35K Aura/Malibu should not have the same POS wheel as a Cobalt.
The thing is you're describing what you want as what is essentially an old man's car! LOL.

You can't complain that the Malibu is "an old man's car" and then at the same time complain about the 3 spoke steering wheel. I mean are you nuts? LOL. Seems to me (just given your comments) that you want a non-sporty car that is huge, has a soft ride and floaty over-boosted steering, coupled with a four-spoke steering wheel (you might be the only one including grandpa that actually wants a four-spoke steering wheel), is that correct? I mean did you want to add wood to that steering wheel as well as wood trim to the rest of the car? Right there you've described grandpas car! You must be 80! Okay 72 at least? Am I close? LOL.

It's about the value of a job. You could be turning screws and snapping plastics for 20 years, still I don't think it should worth 70+/hr just because of 20 years.
Unless there's job progression.
Oh give me a break "about the value of the job"... If you really wanted to rant about someone's "value of job" you would be on all the CEOs and executives that make more money than most of the population makes in a year by the time they eat lunch on January 2nd. No instead I guess let's rag on hard workers in a factory??? Perhaps the factory workers should get less so the execs can make even more money doing nothing? :rolleyes:


Well I think the manufacturing workers should, or they can shove the buy foreign bs sticker up their ***
You have to keep in mind that not everyone buys a brand new car and not everyone really chooses the car they drive. A lot of people out there are just driving any car, just to have a car. Now if all the workers were buying brand new Toyotas every year when they work at Chrysler or GM (or even Honda or another competing company) then you'd have a point. But I'm pretty sure that's not the case.


Too bad if one doesn't save for rainy days. Your lifestyle is not a rights.
I'm sorry but to me you come off as either of one of two types of ppl.
1. You make less than the typical autoworker and are simply jealous and want them to make less.
or
2. You're actually very well off/rich and you just want (like most of the rest of the upper-class) for the rich to get richer while the poor get poorer, because you're greedy.

Just my opinion though you may not actually be either but it's just how you come off. Though I'm guessing I might come off to you as an autoworker, when I'm certainly not, LOL.

We only have ourselves to blame for wanting cheap products and allowing companies to cut costs however they please.
Yep and I'm putting the blame directly on us, make no mistake.

Mind if I ask what makes you go for a German-made choice?
Well the thing is I've driven pretty much every brand of car out there, other than perhaps the exotics (except Porsches which I have driven some of though very limited driving in those), and I have to say once you drive an Audi you don't want to drive anything else, haha. Okay well maybe not everyone feels that way but honestly I really do like Audis and that's given due consideration to other competitors (MB, BMW, Infiniti, etc.) Given what I want out of a car, Audi seems to provide it better than anyone else.

This is just ********... i have known people with all makes have problems with their cars. The guys that own honda/toyotas usually have a story about a domestic car they owned and how much trouble it was but i actually don't remember them ever owning one.
ROFL :lol: Yeah people always make up stories and they do it both ways. Like people that claim to have a Toyota that swear it never needed anything but "gas and oil changes" when you know they had to have their transmission warrantied a year or two before, LOL. People just make up stories of reliability and lack-of-reliability, for what reasons I'm not sure.

Then the complain about how cheap american cars feel - they usually talk about sunfire/neons/cavaliers but fail to realize that they cost half as much as a civic or corrolla.
Not only that, they fail to realise that cars like the Sunfire had an interior 10x better than in their craptastic Civic or Corolla interior (the former with a cookie cutter interior until a few years ago, the other with a borefest interior, but both made for robots instead of people).

Then you got the american(or confused canadian) nutcases that preach about buying domestic cars but continue to shop at walmart and watch their sony/toshiba/panasonic televisions.
Yeah but there aren't (and never really were) many major Canadian or US consumer electronics makers. I mean name one Canadian or US company that makes anything other than low-end TVs. If they don't make them, how can anyone buy them? Of course they are going to have Sony/Toshiba/Panasonic electronics. There are some American companies that make made-in-USA electronics like integrated amps but these are very expensive and serve a higher-end market than the average consumer.

Same thing with all the made-in-China stuff these days. I mean if you fill every shelf with MIC stuff everywhere, you really end up with no choice but to buy it, either that or you don't buy anything. But if you put a MIC product on the shelf beside a competitor product that's made in the US or Canada and costs 50% more? You can be damn sure I'm not buying the MIC product. But the sad part is there's often no choice these days. Even brands you used to know and trust, making quality products before? They're all selling junk now.

I mean you could have someone preach about buying only Japanese and tell them "hey you continue to buy Intel CPUs for your computer" but it wouldn't mean much, would it? There isn't a Japanese company competing with Intel (nor is there any other company really competing with them since AMD is going nowhere, lol).

Of course with technology it's different as despite Intel being American, most of their chips are made everywhere but America, lol. Anyway you get what I mean--automobiles are a different story. I fear the day when cars (American or otherwise) go the same way as a lot of other products as then you'll have three choices or where your car is made--China, China or China. :(

[Bidou78]

Yeah so what? The EV1, particularly at the time, was not economically viable and not really a practical car for average drivers. Even today do you see any totally electric cars? Not really. And technology has gone a long way since then as well. The rate of battery use would be much higher with these, with battery replacements being expensive and common. Manufacturing and disposing of batteries is not an energy-free process either. Creating the electricity to charge them is also not obtained out of thin air.

Again, today technology has changed and a fully-electric car may be more viable, but we still haven't seen them. We may see them soon but the EV1 was certainly not the solution to anyone's problems.

Obviously it's never crossed your mind that when technology is too advanced (i.e. saves money, environment, etc...) it is usually usurped and then hidden so that the $$ can keep rolling in. The government has a hand in this and is in bed with the oil companies and the vehicle manufacturers. The objective for all 3 branches is to make money period. There are many sites you can visit about the EV1 and how is was and still is viable but GM quickly realized this and killed the project. Why do you think there is only a hybrid option and not an electric only option? THEY WANT YOU TO BUY GAS! You owe it to yourself to watch “Who killed the electric car?”. The Tesla is an all electric car with some pretty sweet performance numbers and can go 200 miles on a single charge (I doubt any commute is that long) but it is not appealing to the masses because of the price. So you see it is possible.


Yeah I'm glad you feel that way and glad you are "happy" because if everyone has that attitude and keeps it up long enough, you'll start to see what real crap quality cars are like when everything starts coming out of places like China. Great idea to ruin your own economy and fund communist places who are probably getting a great laugh making all their money in the capitalist world.

Eventually jobs will become more and more crappy in general (that's already been happening for years, unemployment will rise, the poor will get poorer, the rich will get richer; but at least you'll be happy :rolleyes:

Maybe move to China where all the money will be but oops, you can't make any of the money because it's communist and oops you lost your freedom and will probably get shot by the state for voicing an opinion about anything, lol. Good times for all. :rolleyes:

Perhaps I'm exaggerating or have an overly poor outlook; and if you guessed I don't exactly like China you'd be right; but anyway I don't see how elminiating jobs and worsening the economy in your own country makes you happy? :confused:

Anyway not trying to "argue" with anyone at all here, just my $0.02. I have to admit my next car will more than likely be German-made, but that's not really for the reasons that people have said here (opinons about quality and the like).

Relax buddy, breathe. I wasn't saying that everything from China is great, I was trying to communicate that when it comes to cars, they have better reliabilty rates and make superior products compared to those of NA. American studies prove it. The big 3 need to be thought a lesson and learn to ask what we want and not tell us what we want. Quality and workmanship has suffered while profits and stocks soared but not any more. Your assumptions are pulled from thin air on how I feel about our current economy, it's going in the crapper but how is it my fault? It sounds like you would want me to buy domestic just to help out when I (plus 80% of people out there) feel like the big 3 have been giving canadians the shaft for years but especially now when our dollar is close to parity!:rolleyes: GM once had 60% of the market place and lost it but now they need a bail out? No thanks, born yesterday but not at night.

[new_vr]

No thanks, born yesterday but not at night.
The traditional way to say that is "I was born at night, but not last night"

[AzN_RiverdaleCI]

Foreign cars own, I don't want to be a domestic driving guy. =/

[Tomy]

This is just ********... i have known people with all makes have problems with their cars. The guys that own honda/toyotas usually have a story about a domestic car they owned and how much trouble it was but i actually don't remember them ever owning one. Then the complain about how cheap american cars feel - they usually talk about sunfire/neons/cavaliers but fail to realize that they cost half as much as a civic or corrolla. Then you got the american(or confused canadian) nutcases that preach about buying domestic cars but continue to shop at walmart and watch their sony/toshiba/panasonic televisions.

i agree on the part about cheaper prices on the domestic car as compare to imports/foreign.. and i also agree on the part where the imports have problems on its own, but nothing close to what we deal with domestic.

but for one, in my household as of right now, we have one pontiac, acura, nissan, and a benz...

if u include my gf (volkswagon) and my bro's gf (malibu)

i can assure you.. domestic has the most problems, then the volkswagon.. not to mention, my dad is a patriotic fan of domestic cars.. he had a buick, a gmc van, a ford.. and i was too young to remember the rest.. but i can assure you.. the domestic cars we've owned was nothing but trouble..

and to sum it up..at the end of the day.. even though we saved up on the cheaper price of the vehicle; the hassle, time, frustration, & money we hve to deal with in fixing the domestic car outweighs the benefit of the dollar saved...

[Swiguy]

I own an 06 Pontiac G6 GT coupe and it's a great car. I've dominated a number of ricer Civics in some races (legal track races of course :))... even when my car was stock. Now, after doing a few mods it's not even close. Don't get me wrong, Honda, Toyota and a few European manufactures make great cars... but unfortunately, most of them are gutless.

[frogger]

If its not dictated by pure economic reasons, I'll drive just about anything as long as its not in the top dozen or so selling vehicles. I don't want to see a minor variation of my car every 2 minutes on the road. I've had Japanese and American vehicles and never really had more than one or two non-wear item repairs per car (though I generally won't keep a car older than 8 years).

[untaka]

I own an 06 Pontiac G6 GT coupe and it's a great car. I've dominated a number of ricer Civics in some races (legal track races of course :))... even when my car was stock. Now, after doing a few mods it's not even close. Don't get me wrong, Honda, Toyota and a few European manufactures make great cars... but unfortunately, most of them are gutless.

Well your car is 240 hp with 240 lb of torque so I'm not surprised it beat 130hp stock civic. I'm not sure about the gutless part, doesn't really make any sense, considering for the same price you could pickup a car thats around the same HP as yours and probably lighter and more reliable and cheaper to mod. Then on top of that your comparing a car made to be big and bulky heavy on gas vs cars made to be reliable good on gas and cheap. Thats like comparing a ford focus vs R8, they just aren't in the same class.

[VivienM]

Well your car is 240 hp with 240 lb of torque so I'm not surprised it beat 130hp stock civic.

240HP? An 06 G6 GT has the 'old-school' 3.5L engine (not the newer VVT one), which is 200HP...

[Swiguy]

Well your car is 240 hp with 240 lb of torque so I'm not surprised it beat 130hp stock civic. I'm not sure about the gutless part, doesn't really make any sense, considering for the same price you could pickup a car thats around the same HP as yours and probably lighter and more reliable and cheaper to mod. Then on top of that your comparing a car made to be big and bulky heavy on gas vs cars made to be reliable good on gas and cheap. Thats like comparing a ford focus vs R8, they just aren't in the same class.

I raced numerous "modified" Civics (SIs included) all of which were pushing in the 200 range HP. The Civic is indeed lighter than my car (by about 700 pounds) but my car shouldn't be compared with a Civic anyways. If you compare the G6 with an Accord, the G6 is a full 1.5 seconds faster and weights approx the same as the Accord. Also, fuel economy is similar between the two models. However, in terms of reliability, it's obvious that Honda has a better track record than GM. This is the first GM car I've owned and I can safetly say I've had no problems in 2 years. Maybe I'm lucky?

[untaka]

No 2 years there shouldn't really be any problems unless you own a Mitso or Subaru (LOL). I got the HP from msn autos it said 240 didn't know it was 200. I'm sure your car could knock out an accord easily. I don't think Pontiac or such make cars that bad as people say, I mean my brother has a cavalier that is about 7 years old with few problems. I would personally never own an GM/Ford/Chrys car because I personally think their style is so ugly. However that is purely based on my personal opinon.

And no sorry Vivien I don't like the W body :( But I don't think these are horrible cars as everyone makes them out to be.

[ES_Revenge]

Obviously it's never crossed your mind that when technology is too advanced (i.e. saves money, environment, etc...) it is usually usurped and then hidden so that the $$ can keep rolling in. The government has a hand in this and is in bed with the oil companies and the vehicle manufacturers. The objective for all 3 branches is to make money period. There are many sites you can visit about the EV1 and how is was and still is viable but GM quickly realized this and killed the project. Why do you think there is only a hybrid option and not an electric only option? THEY WANT YOU TO BUY GAS! You owe it to yourself to watch “Who killed the electric car?”.
Obviously :rolleyes: Actually, it certainly did cross my mind. I'm sure we're all well aware of the politics of oil, particularly in the US. However spurting conspiracy theories about this and that doesn't really make anyone look credible, nor does it make for good conversation (well at least not for me).

The Tesla is an all electric car with some pretty sweet performance numbers and can go 200 miles on a single charge (I doubt any commute is that long) but it is not appealing to the masses because of the price. So you see it is possible.
It can't go for 200 miles while doing those performance numbers. Also it has some other serious issues and most of them can't do anything near it's originally claimed numbers. Also there's not even as many produced as there were EV1s. I said you don't see electric vehicles that are commonplace, and the Tesla is certainly not a good argument against that. It's like me saying you don't see cars that go above 250MPH everywhere, and then you saying "what about the Veyron"--the Veyron isn't found everywhere is it? Neither is the Tesla compared to gasoline cars.



Relax buddy, breathe. I wasn't saying that everything from China is great, I was trying to communicate that when it comes to cars, they have better reliabilty rates and make superior products compared to those of NA.
Well I said I wasn't really arguing with anyone but now I have to laugh. I wasn't saying anything about what you were saying or not saying about China. But China has better reliability and superior products than those made in NA? ROTFLMFAO :lol: Oookaaaay. I'll have to keep that in mind :lol:

[woodstock827]

Reliability is one thing, the design is another.

I would've considered getting the Saturn Astra because it looked so good. I test drove it. The driving was ok, but the rear window is so darn small i scrapped the idea...
When I bought my Hyundai 4 years ago, I knew the reliability is probably not going to match Toyota or Honda.. but its look and drive totally sold it to me..
Everyone knows Mercedes are unreliable and expensive, but they still sell like hot cakes because they look and drive so darn good.

"Domestic" manufactures have to give consumers better reason than "buy Canadian" in order for us to consider buying their products.

[Tomy]

Reliability is one thing, the design is another.

I would've considered getting the Saturn Astra because it looked so good. I test drove it. The driving was ok, but the rear window is so darn small i scrapped the idea...
When I bought my Hyundai 4 years ago, I knew the reliability is probably not going to match Toyota or Honda.. but its look and drive totally sold it to me..
Everyone knows Mercedes are unreliable and expensive, but they still sell like hot cakes because they look and drive so darn good.

"Domestic" manufactures have to give consumers better reason than "buy Canadian" in order for us to consider buying their products.

great points..

domestic manufacturers need to find a better strategy to survive.. they need to scrap all their current strategies and get new ones..

they're not known for 1. reliability 2. fun to drive 3. luxury 4. quality 5. easily to maintain and on....

they havn't succeeded in any category.. other than the fact that they're cheaper in MRSP, 0%... and it's still not attracting customers..

[Bullseye]

No 2 years there shouldn't really be any problems unless you own a Mitso or Subaru (LOL).

'Toyota Loses Top Spot in Reliability Rankings
By NICK BUNKLEY
Published: October 17, 2007
DETROIT, Oct. 16 —The magazine Consumer Reports says that “bug-ridden redesigns” caused Toyota Motor of Japan to drop unexpectedly to third, from first, in its annual vehicle reliability rankings released on Tuesday.'

'Honda and Subaru of Japan ranked first and second over all. '

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/17/business/worldbusiness/17auto.html

[bobby5]

'Toyota Loses Top Spot in Reliability Rankings
By NICK BUNKLEY..... “bug-ridden redesigns” caused Toyota Motor of Japan to drop unexpectedly to third...

Looks like Toyota is taking a leaf out of the Big 3s' strategies.
Results: oops!

They should lock themselves away and think long and hard why they're so successful in the last 3 decades.

[Bazooka Joe]

No 2 years there shouldn't really be any problems unless you own a Mitso or Subaru (LOL). I got the HP from msn autos it said 240 didn't know it was 200. I'm sure your car could knock out an accord easily. I don't think Pontiac or such make cars that bad as people say, I mean my brother has a cavalier that is about 7 years old with few problems. I would personally never own an GM/Ford/Chrys car because I personally think their style is so ugly. However that is purely based on my personal opinon.

And no sorry Vivien I don't like the W body :( But I don't think these are horrible cars as everyone makes them out to be.

'Toyota Loses Top Spot in Reliability Rankings
By NICK BUNKLEY
Published: October 17, 2007
DETROIT, Oct. 16 —The magazine Consumer Reports says that “bug-ridden redesigns” caused Toyota Motor of Japan to drop unexpectedly to third, from first, in its annual vehicle reliability rankings released on Tuesday.'

'Honda and Subaru of Japan ranked first and second over all. '

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/17/business/worldbusiness/17auto.html

oops ;)

[movieman]

domestic manufacturers need to find a better strategy to survive.. they need to scrap all their current strategies and get new ones..

In many cases, all they really need to do is bring their European models across the Atlantic; Ford in particular seems to have a long-standing policy of selling their best models in Europe and keeping the crappy ones for North America.

[Tomy]

In many cases, all they really need to do is bring their European models across the Atlantic; Ford in particular seems to have a long-standing policy of selling their best models in Europe and keeping the crappy ones for North America.

that's true.. i've seen A LOT of ford/gm in china... but they're being beaten up by nissan/vw/hyundai.. and not to mention.. by china brands now..

eventually.. they'll lose out in that market too.

but you're right.. how come they can't do the same for us here?

[VivienM]

In many cases, all they really need to do is bring their European models across the Atlantic; Ford in particular seems to have a long-standing policy of selling their best models in Europe and keeping the crappy ones for North America.

GM's trying that with Saturn... and sales are down.

I have no experience with the extremely European Astra or Vue. As for the partly-European Aura, that thing is enough to make me (aka formerly the biggest GM fan of this forum) run to a Nissan dealer and pay the same money for a way less equipped Altima... and its European heritage is part of the reason that this thing is horrible.

An absolute disgrace.

And their sales guy calls me EVERY TWO DAYS. I guess he hasn't figured out that I have call display yet. :)

[mr_raider]

Indeed. The only remotely attractive American cars (not SUV behemoths) right now are the Ford Fusion and CAddy CTS. If you want something in the compact market, you're stuck with choices that make my dad's 11 year old Sunfire look good.

If GM would put out a decent compact sedan/hatch, people will come.

[untaka]

'Toyota Loses Top Spot in Reliability Rankings
By NICK BUNKLEY
Published: October 17, 2007
DETROIT, Oct. 16 —The magazine Consumer Reports says that “bug-ridden redesigns” caused Toyota Motor of Japan to drop unexpectedly to third, from first, in its annual vehicle reliability rankings released on Tuesday.'

'Honda and Subaru of Japan ranked first and second over all. '

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/17/business/worldbusiness/17auto.html

One mans opinon on the subject. They might not be unreliable cars hence the laughter, but there service and care for quality is poor. Customers report problems and get the shaft/ignored. I've followed the forums and you see constant issues, issues that SHOULD not happen, and Subaru ignores them. How would you feel buying a new Subaru and having the paint chip? Having to do maintenance right from start? Its not just the cars but what happens if there is a problem WITH the cars. Personally Subaru treats its customers like dirt. I'm looking at the big picture, but I do like the look of their cars and its good to see some people think they are reliable, hopefully its not just an opinon and actually based on facts.

Also add in the cheapass windshields they use, whats up with that? You pay 40k for a new car and your windshield cracks so easily so soon because they use cheap parts.

[Bullseye]

One mans opinon on the subject. They might not be unreliable cars hence the laughter, but there service and care for quality is poor. Customers report problems and get the shaft/ignored. I've followed the forums and you see constant issues, issues that SHOULD not happen, and Subaru ignores them. How would you feel buying a new Subaru and having the paint chip? Having to do maintenance right from start? Its not just the cars but what happens if there is a problem WITH the cars. Personally Subaru treats its customers like dirt. I'm looking at the big picture, but I do like the look of their cars and its good to see some people think they are reliable, hopefully its not just an opinon and actually based on facts.

It's not one mans opinion, it's Consumer Reports reliability study, which takes data from thousands of actual owners.

I'll trust that over some anecdotes from forum users here.

[untaka]

It's not one mans opinion, it's Consumer Reports reliability study, which takes data from thousands of actual owners.

I'll trust that over some anecdotes from forum users here.

ah hmm Yeah kinda, I mean I would too but the forums I check are Subaru oriented, I guess its one of those cases when your first impression is bad its hard to turn it around. Especially when the company itself doesn't help your view can become tainted.

[ferkel]

Also add in the cheapass windshields they use, whats up with that? You pay 40k for a new car and your windshield cracks so easily so soon because they use cheap parts.

I think that can apply to every manufacturer, including Honda/Toyota.. the cheapness of the materials used is sad... I think it only costs a few grand to make a new car, but the rest of the costs is for marketing, profit, warranties, etc

[woodstock827]

GM's trying that with Saturn... and sales are down.

I have no experience with the extremely European Astra or Vue. As for the partly-European Aura, that thing is enough to make me (aka formerly the biggest GM fan of this forum) run to a Nissan dealer and pay the same money for a way less equipped Altima... and its European heritage is part of the reason that this thing is horrible.

An absolute disgrace.

And their sales guy calls me EVERY TWO DAYS. I guess he hasn't figured out that I have call display yet. :)

May I ask why the European heritage is so horrible and what makes you run to the Nissan dealer?
Part of the reason Saturn sales is down I believe is brand image. Saturn has been known for being bottom of the barrel for quite some time, and now all of a sudden they try to make it all European middle-upper class. In turn they lose existing customers who's just looking for cheap stuff, but can't find new customer because competition is so great. They'd probably do better if they just import the Opel brand directly without rebadging... but the down size is GM got enough brands in N/A already it's probably not practical to bring in another one.

for the record, I love the look of the Sky, but after all the reviews I've read, it's sadly still unable to match the Miata...

[mr_raider]

May I ask why the European heritage is so horrible and what makes you run to the Nissan dealer?

Because even Europeans would prefer a Nissan/Renault over Opel?Vauxhall.

[VivienM]

May I ask why the European heritage is so horrible and what makes you run to the Nissan dealer?

The Aura feels too narrow, for starters. Not sure why - I'm guessing the seats may be narrower than in wider cars? (they'd have to be, unless they just have a narrower center console...)

Secondly, the steering is too stiff. And the Aura XR... rides a lot harsher than the 2.5L Altimas. (Yes, I know, that's an apples-to-oranges comparison, but given GM refuses to sell me automatic climate control in an XE, that's the comparison I'll make)

But more importantly, the Altima (or Ford Fusion) just FEELS right in a way that the Aura doesn't...

[Swiguy]

It's not one mans opinion, it's Consumer Reports reliability study, which takes data from thousands of actual owners.

I'll trust that over some anecdotes from forum users here.

I'm not sure about the reliability studies CR performs but I can tell you that Consumer Reports reviews about as reliable as my friend's Ford Contour (not sure why he still drives it...)... Consumer Reports is widely considered a "pro import" reviewer and thus domestic cars get unfairly reviewed. I much prefer Canadian Driver or Motor Trend just to name a few. If you want unbiased, accurate reliability information; check out JDpower.com. They seemingly do the same thing Consumer Reports does in terms of acquiring reliability information. However, their results are considered more accurate by many "auto experts". You be the judges for yourself, I've had numerous friends with American, Jap and German cars with all sorts of problems. But then again, I've had a bunch who've had cars with no issues. Overall, I will attest that Lexus/Toyota is the best out of the bunch for reliability... but European and North American cars are neck and neck in terms of reliability. Today, it's probable that NA are better overall though.

[kool1]

The Aura feels too narrow, for starters. Not sure why - I'm guessing the seats may be narrower than in wider cars? (they'd have to be, unless they just have a narrower center console...)

Secondly, the steering is too stiff. And the Aura XR... rides a lot harsher than the 2.5L Altimas. (Yes, I know, that's an apples-to-oranges comparison, but given GM refuses to sell me automatic climate control in an XE, that's the comparison I'll make)

But more importantly, the Altima (or Ford Fusion) just FEELS right in a way that the Aura doesn't...

Try the new Malibu. It takes the Aura to a higher level of refinement.

North American car of the year 2008.

[Bazooka Joe]

One mans opinon on the subject. They might not be unreliable cars hence the laughter, but there service and care for quality is poor. Customers report problems and get the shaft/ignored. I've followed the forums and you see constant issues, issues that SHOULD not happen, and Subaru ignores them. How would you feel buying a new Subaru and having the paint chip? Having to do maintenance right from start? Its not just the cars but what happens if there is a problem WITH the cars. Personally Subaru treats its customers like dirt. I'm looking at the big picture, but I do like the look of their cars and its good to see some people think they are reliable, hopefully its not just an opinon and actually based on facts.

Also add in the cheapass windshields they use, whats up with that? You pay 40k for a new car and your windshield cracks so easily so soon because they use cheap parts.

As a subaru owner I'll give another man's opinion on the subject. The paint chip thing was a serious issue, but it has been resolved AFAIK and it was only for a limited number of vehicles. I don't know what maintenance you're refering to that needs to be done right at the start, can you elaborate?

I wouldn't know how they treat their customers, I've never spoken to a subaru person in over 3 years since I bought my car. For a person that takes their car to the dealer for an oil change it might not be the best vehicle. But for someone who appreciates both the driving experience and the quality of the engine, it would be tough to beat a subie.

I did have a windshield go after two years of driving dirt roads on my daily commute. There were over 24 pits in the windshield before it began to crack. I no longer drive under those circumstances, so I don't know if my aftermarket windshield is any better.

For reliability (meaning you get in, turn the key and the car runs) you can't beat a subaru IMO. I've got a buddy with one from '84 that still runs well. If paint chips and windshield replacements are considered reliability, then perhaps we are each measuring by a different yardstick.

Anyways, most people who have owned a subaru for a few years will go on and on about what great vehicles they are, myself included. I hate to say it, but you'd have to own one to understand.

I'm not sure about the reliability studies CR performs but I can tell you that Consumer Reports reviews about as reliable as my friend's Ford Contour (not sure why he still drives it...)... Consumer Reports is widely considered a "pro import" reviewer and thus domestic cars get unfairly reviewed. I much prefer Canadian Driver or Motor Trend just to name a few. If you want unbiased, accurate reliability information; check out JDpower.com. They seemingly do the same thing Consumer Reports does in terms of acquiring reliability information. However, their results are considered more accurate by many "auto experts". You be the judges for yourself, I've had numerous friends with American, Jap and German cars with all sorts of problems. But then again, I've had a bunch who've had cars with no issues. Overall, I will attest that Lexus/Toyota is the best out of the bunch for reliability... but European and North American cars are neck and neck in terms of reliability. Today, it's probable that NA are better overall though.


Edit: Even using JD Power and associates "dependability" ranking, here are the vehicles that rank equal to or below Mitsubishi (all of which are below Subaru)

Audi
Chevrolet
Chrystler
Dodge
GMC
Hyundai
Infiniti
Isuzu
Jeep
Kia
Land Rover
Mazda
Mini
Nissan
Oldsmobile
Pontiac
Porsche
Saab
Saturn
Suzuki
Volkswagen
Volvo

And here are the vehicles that are even with Subaru

Acura
Ford
Hummer
Jaguar
Scion

So although Subaru isn't the best, they still manage to beat out the huge majority of automakers when using JD Power rankings as a measurement. When using Consumer Reports they're #2.

Vehicles that beat Subaru
BMW
Buick
Cadillac
Honda
Lexus
Lincoln
Mercedes-Benz
Mercury
Toyota

[VivienM]

Try the new Malibu. It takes the Aura to a higher level of refinement.

North American car of the year 2008.

Yup. Also adds quite a bit to the monthly payment if you're looking at the LTZ V6...

I liked the Malibu at the auto show. But I keep being told it's ridiculously an old man's car in a way that the Altima is not... and as a single mid-20s dude, that is a bit of a concern...

[DrXenon]

I dunno about this thinking. My friend is an engineering manager at GM Oshawa and most of the employees he supervises are in India, having fired all the domestic engineers.

[gordholio]

If "domestic" (the big 3 are American automakers) cars had a better reputation, I would gladly buy.
I bought a 2000 Hyundai Accent last August and couldn't be happier. The manual transmission reservoir is leaking, so I will have to get that replaced ($170 or so), but other than an oil change and filter (Amsoil synthetic), I've had nothing done to my car.

I know that Civics and Corollas are made in Ontario, but for a used car, they were beyond my budget.

[mr_freeze]

After reading all of these comments about "lazy" Canadians, it makes me wonder...

Is there no such thing as a Canadian patriot anymore? Whatever happened to being a proud Canadian?

You must be joking, right ?

In your previous comment you said this:


We are North American. And we have so much in common with the US that I think Domestic is a good term.

Either you see yourself as a proud Canadian or just another individual in the big US mixing pot.