Diesel vs. Hybrid

[jetz]

I am starting this thread to get the discussion going. As an engineer I find the recent green weanie emphasis on gasoline hybrids just annoying. Moreover, the belief that modern diesels are high polluting, noisy beasts is just inaccurate.

From the value perspective, gasoline hybrids are just a terrible investment. The return on investment (lets consider the hybrid premium an investment) is terrible compared to the diesel premium. And the cost of maintaining a dual drivetrain is also just as bad.

From the environmental perspective, there was one study showing that a Hummer was more environmentally friendly (including greenhouse gases) to produce than a Prius. And final disposal of the batteries will start becoming an issue sooner or later.

It's time the public had a real debate on hybrids. Toyota's marketing hype should get exposed for what it is.

[pfbmgd]

Diesel is great for a highway car .Very limited in availability .

Hybrids are great for the city .Many available but you will pay a premium .

[seftonm]

The Hummer / Prius comparison had some major flaws. I do not know why people still believe it. Read http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Green_Car_News/Prius_Versus_HUMMER_Exploding_the_Myth.S196.A12220 .html?pg=1 for more information. Here is a chart showing some emissions from a Prius compared to a conventional car based on a 10 year / 100k km life.
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/2/Prius_II_Green_Report.jpg

Batteries are mostly recyclable. I do not believe there will be major problems with battery disposal.

I would still rather have a diesel though. I have one now and am very happy with the mileage. I like the control of a manual transmission and the torque of the engine. Hybrids will beat a diesel at low speed driving, but diesels can be more efficient at moderate to high speeds, even with better and power acceleration than hybrids. Hybrids should not be dismissed, however. Not everyone wants a diesel. In many areas of the USA, diesel is more expensive than gasoline year round.

[neospice]

What about the new VW Golf TDI Hybird? 3.4L/100km

[Desolatax]

Diesel Torque. 'nuff said.

[BartBandy]

That Hummer vs. Prius study was done by a marketing company - it wasn't scientific at all. It also assumed the life of a Prius was 1/2 of the life of a Hummer, based on expected miles driven. As a study, it was crap.

That said, I agree that new clean diesel technology is the way to go. You'll see new Bluetec engines coming out over the next few years. Audi has one in their Q7, and it returns 10L/100km, which is great for a vehicle of that size. I'm hoping for a DTEC engine in the new Pilot.

[craftsman]

I am starting this thread to get the discussion going. As an engineer I find the recent green weanie emphasis on gasoline hybrids just annoying. Moreover, the belief that modern diesels are high polluting, noisy beasts is just inaccurate.

North Americans just don't know enough about diesels. If you ask a normal guy/gal on the street about diesels, they remember the dump truck that just rolled by or the old diesel Benz that spits out smoke. Diesel's poor reputation in North American has more to do with older diesel owners than they do anything else.

From the value perspective, gasoline hybrids are just a terrible investment. The return on investment (lets consider the hybrid premium an investment) is terrible compared to the diesel premium. And the cost of maintaining a dual drivetrain is also just as bad.

Any vehicle is a terrible investment (unless you count classic cars but that's a different discussion). They are expensive to maintain regardless of 1 or 2 drive trains. However, you will find that the issue hybrid reliability really something that has not born any truth. According to Consumer Reports, hybrids have been very reliable. In addition, Autobytel.com rates hybrids more reliable (with a score of 94) than the average rating of all cars (an 85).

From the environmental perspective, there was one study showing that a Hummer was more environmentally friendly (including greenhouse gases) to produce than a Prius. And final disposal of the batteries will start becoming an issue sooner or later.

One study does not make the truth. "Statistic don't lie but lairs use statistics." While it is a interesting place to start a discussion, starting a discussion based on one study makes for a short discussion.

Battery replacement amounts to reliability. Critics of the technology have been spelling the doom of the hybrid's battery since the hybrid was first built. In all honesty, there are no firm statistics on hybrid battery replacement because the original batteries in the hybrids introduced 8 years ago are still in service. Most car manufacturers warranty a hybrid battery for 8 to 10 years. Here's an article from a website about the "hidden cost" of a hybrid - http://www.hybridcars.com/economics/hidden-costs.html. And other with actual numbers of how much they cost to run http://www.hybridexperience.ca/Reliability.htm.


It's time the public had a real debate on hybrids. Toyota's marketing hype should get exposed for what it is.

Yes. Let's debate but lets be sure we have more information about the subject before starting this debate.

[jetz]

North Americans just don't know enough about diesels. If you ask a normal guy/gal on the street about diesels, they remember the dump truck that just rolled by or the old diesel Benz that spits out smoke. Diesel's poor reputation in North American has more to do with older diesel owners than they do anything else.



Any vehicle is a terrible investment (unless you count classic cars but that's a different discussion). They are expensive to maintain regardless of 1 or 2 drive trains. However, you will find that the issue hybrid reliability really something that has not born any truth. According to Consumer Reports, hybrids have been very reliable. In addition, Autobytel.com rates hybrids more reliable (with a score of 94) than the average rating of all cars (an 85).



One study does not make the truth. "Statistic don't lie but lairs use statistics." While it is a interesting place to start a discussion, starting a discussion based on one study makes for a short discussion.

Battery replacement amounts to reliability. Critics of the technology have been spelling the doom of the hybrid's battery since the hybrid was first built. In all honesty, there are no firm statistics on hybrid battery replacement because the original batteries in the hybrids introduced 8 years ago are still in service. Most car manufacturers warranty a hybrid battery for 8 to 10 years. Here's an article from a website about the "hidden cost" of a hybrid - http://www.hybridcars.com/economics/hidden-costs.html. And other with actual numbers of how much they cost to run http://www.hybridexperience.ca/Reliability.htm.



Yes. Let's debate but lets be sure we have more information about the subject before starting this debate.


I will certainly take back my comments on the Prius vs. Hummer debate. I didnt know too much about the study prior to some posts on here. However, I still feel that the ROI on a hybrid vs. a diesel is weak. What I find frustrating is the fact that because of the emphasis on hybrids, diesels are being held back from introduction into North America.

I would also argue for smaller engines. Most people definitely do not need 200hp cars for everyday use. And sadly, very few people understand the torque vs. horsepower comparison.....

Just a note though...personally I am a big transit user. I live a 10 min bus ride from the office and commute by bus for most things. The car is for groceries, errands, outings and my monthly trip back to visit the family (450km each way).

[jetz]

Diesel is great for a highway car .Very limited in availability .

Hybrids are great for the city .Many available but you will pay a premium .

True enough. Hybrids are great for the city. After all, a hybrid is just a "technology" and can be applied for effect to any type of powertrain (gas or diesel). However, in reality there are only gasoline hybrids available. Some companies are working on diesel hybrids, but they are still many years away. However, the issue of ROI on the premium (vs. the same gas model) thats paid for a hybrid compared to a diesel, still stands.

[KevC]

What about the new VW Golf TDI Hybird? 3.4L/100km

? more info plz.

[gilboman]

Diesel Torque. 'nuff said.

a garbage truck has lots of torque too.

[ES_Revenge]

Diesel stinks, hybrid blows. Need I say anything else? LOL

[seftonm]

Diesel stinks, hybrid blows. Need I say anything else? LOL
How about having to fill every 700 kms sucks?

[DeimosBeros]

I wish that I could get my hands on a reliable, practical diesel over here in canada.
I think in theory, a hybrid works and is a good step in the right direction to one day be free of our oil dependancy. Considering their production doesn't seem very green, hybrids just look like a market to cash in on, just creating another economy.

[craftsman]

. What I find frustrating is the fact that because of the emphasis on hybrids, diesels are being held back from introduction into North America.

It really comes down to the chicken or the egg discussion. The manufacturers won't introduce them because diesels are not well known or received. The public won't buy them because there are so few diesels on the market.

[ShadowVlican]

a hybrid diesel would be the best of both worlds? city and hwy? :lol2:

[jetz]

a hybrid diesel would be the best of both worlds? city and hwy? :lol2:

It would. However, it would be really expensive and the return on the premium would be somewhere between a pure diesel and a hybrid gasoline engine. I think hybridization of a diesel would add much more to the cost column but very little to the benefit column.

Somebody earlier, cited the development of the new VW Jetta TDI Hybrid with a 3.4 L/100 km fuel consumption. But compare this to the current TDI which has a combined fuel consumption of 5.9 L/100 km. For somebody driving 20 000 km a year, they would save about 500 L of fuel (so about $500) at today's prices. But here's the rub. The diesel is already nearly 5k more expensive than a regular Jetta. And its likely that hybridization would add at least 3k. That would mean that it would take about 6 years just to pay off the hybrid drive.

[Billa-786]

It really comes down to the chicken or the egg discussion. The manufacturers won't introduce them because diesels are not well known or received. The public won't buy them because there are so few diesels on the market.

You can thank our neighbours to the south for lack of interest in diesel.The main thing holding back diesels is price. In the US, diesel is priced much higher than it is here in Canada compared to regular gasoline(I believe it's because diesel is subsidized). This combined with higher prices for diesels means longer payback periods despite the better mileage.

[mtl4]

It would. However, it would be really expensive and the return on the premium would be somewhere between a pure diesel and a hybrid gasoline engine. I think hybridization of a diesel would add much more to the cost column but very little to the benefit column.

Somebody earlier, cited the development of the new VW Jetta TDI Hybrid with a 3.4 L/100 km fuel consumption. But compare this to the current TDI which has a combined fuel consumption of 5.9 L/100 km. For somebody driving 20 000 km a year, they would save about 500 L of fuel (so about $500) at today's prices. But here's the rub. The diesel is already nearly 5k more expensive than a regular Jetta. And its likely that hybridization would add at least 3k. That would mean that it would take about 6 years just to pay off the hybrid drive.

I'll first state that I am very pro diesel because of the efficiencies to be gained from that technology. It's hard to say what the diesel hybrid ROI would actually be, if you have an article or source for comparison I'd be very interested to see it. The other thing that needs to be kept in mind its that you will likely start seeing the price of diesel fuel break away (ie go higher) from the price of gasoline (traditionally they have always remained close with diesel sometimes even being lower than gas) as more people see the efficiencies of diesel being attractive. Most of Europe and Asia are heavy diesel consumers already (not to mention the world wide trucking infrastructure) so adding more demand to the equation will definately drive up prices for that fuel. So your analysis on a diesel hybrid might be correct using a today's numbers but I think the assumption that it will be the same situation 6 years from now would be a mistake. Just my two cents.

[ES_Revenge]

How about having to fill every 700 kms sucks?
If I have to choose between filling up more often and stinking up the place, I would have to choose the former.

As for hybrids we all know how long you have to own one/how much you have to drive for it to actually work out well, in terms of dollars and cents.

[new_vr]

Somebody earlier, cited the development of the new VW Jetta TDI Hybrid with a 3.4 L/100 km fuel consumption. But compare this to the current TDI which has a combined fuel consumption of 5.9 L/100 km. For somebody driving 20 000 km a year, they would save about 500 L of fuel (so about $500) at today's prices. But here's the rub. The diesel is already nearly 5k more expensive than a regular Jetta. And its likely that hybridization would add at least 3k. That would mean that it would take about 6 years just to pay off the hybrid drive.

The diesel is not a $5000 upgrade. It was around a $2000 upgrade

[seftonm]

If I have to choose between filling up more often and stinking up the place, I would have to choose the former.

As for hybrids we all know how long you have to own one/how much you have to drive for it to actually work out well, in terms of dollars and cents.
The new diesels with particulate filters and low NOx running on ULSD smell much less than the old ones. Plus, they're not polluting up the place with all the CO2, CO, and VOC's of regular gas engines.

As for the hybrid payback time, it's 2 years for my parents' Highlander Hybrid.

[jetz]

The diesel is not a $5000 upgrade. It was around a $2000 upgrade

I pulled that off the site. I compared 2.5 and the 1.9 TDI.

[jetz]

The new diesels with particulate filters and low NOx running on ULSD smell much less than the old ones. Plus, they're not polluting up the place with all the CO2, CO, and VOC's of regular gas engines.

As for the hybrid payback time, it's 2 years for my parents' Highlander Hybrid.

Could you give us some numbers on how you estimated the 2 years payback. I am not questioning your numbers, just trying to get some more info.

[seftonm]

Highlander: 12.3/8.8L / 100km -- I estimated 11L/100km combined
HiHy: 7.4/8.0L / 100km -- I estimated 9L/100km combined

With 25k kms driven per year and estimated fuel cost at $1.20/L, this makes a $600 fuel savings per year for the HiHy.

Highlander Limited with nav: $50300 * 1.13 = $56839
HiHy Limited with nav: $54220 * 1.13 = $61269 - $1500 - $2000 = $57769
$57769-$56839 = $930 difference

* $1500 federal ecoAuto rebate and $2000 provincial rebate for the HiHy.

[beerbaron105]

Diesel Torque. 'nuff said.

i was under the impression that an electric motor had full torque at 1rpm technically.

[ES_Revenge]

i was under the impression that an electric motor had full torque at 1rpm technically.

Some do, yes; and particularly the motors used in hybrids, they have full torque available quite quickly so they can have even more low-end than turbo diesel for sure. However as motor RPM rises above it's operation range, the motor's torque may drop off significantly.

[izzyzz]

I will certainly take back my comments on the Prius vs. Hummer debate. I didnt know too much about the study prior to some posts on here. However, I still feel that the ROI on a hybrid vs. a diesel is weak. What I find frustrating is the fact that because of the emphasis on hybrids, diesels are being held back from introduction into North America.

Emphasis is on the hybrids because diesels could not meet the North American emission standards until recently. Blaming hybrids for slow introduction of diesels is ridiculous.

With new filtering technology, diesels are now legal in many US states and Canada, but not all. California and other states that adopted California's tough emission standards are still too restrictive for new diesels. That is the main reason behind slow adoption of the technology and the reason the emphasis is still on hybrids/electrics.

One example, is the turbo diesel option in new Jeep Grand Cherokee:
http://www.jeep.com/crd/

Note the disclaimer at the bottom of the page. Expect to find the same disclaimer for diesel Mercedes, BMWs, etc..

[manixc]

I would be all for Diesel if there are more choices in Canada.

The only Diesel car I can think of is the VW Golf/Rabbit and Jetta (which are really the same).

[izzyzz]

I would be all for Diesel if there are more choices in Canada.

The only Diesel car I can think of is the VW Golf/Rabbit and Jetta (which are really the same).

I want a diesel mini. It gets better mileage than Prius. :)

http://www.thetorquereport.com/2007/05/mini_takes_on_the_prius_with_7.html

[ES_Revenge]

I want a diesel mini. It gets better mileage than Prius. :)

http://www.thetorquereport.com/2007/05/mini_takes_on_the_prius_with_7.html

It also stinks :( Though I don't like the Prius at all, at least it doesn't smell up the place.

[izzyzz]

It also stinks :( Though I don't like the Prius at all, at least it doesn't smell up the place.

Just wondering, have you seen a recent diesel car with Bluetec engine? I am curious to see if smell is still an issue vs older diesels.

[ac328]

Highlander: 12.3/8.8L / 100km -- I estimated 11L/100km combined
HiHy: 7.4/8.0L / 100km -- I estimated 9L/100km combined

With 25k kms driven per year and estimated fuel cost at $1.20/L, this makes a $600 fuel savings per year for the HiHy.

Highlander Limited with nav: $50300 * 1.13 = $56839
HiHy Limited with nav: $54220 * 1.13 = $61269 - $1500 - $2000 = $57769
$57769-$56839 = $930 difference

* $1500 federal ecoAuto rebate and $2000 provincial rebate for the HiHy.


Federal rebate goes bye-bye after 2008, so no more $1,500 cheques for Highlanders.

[seftonm]

Just wondering, have you seen a recent diesel car with Bluetec engine? I am curious to see if smell is still an issue vs older diesels.
The new clean diesels have much less smell than the old ones. Modern emissions controls and better fuel have made a big difference. The smell is still there but nothing like a VW TDI from a few years ago.

[boyoflondon]

What about the new VW Golf TDI Hybird? 3.4L/100km


? more info plz.

Well, its a TDI (turbocharged direct injected) hybrid .... the best of both worlds combined together for maximum fuel efficiency!! :D

[mlc2000]

How about having to fill every 700 kms sucks?

Sounds like its time for a tune-up.
On a bad week of city driving, I still get 850km / tank.

[mlc2000]

The new clean diesels have much less smell than the old ones. Modern emissions controls and better fuel have made a big difference. The smell is still there but nothing like a VW TDI from a few years ago.

I can attest to that...I have a 2006 TDi and its much better than my pervious 2003.

Filling up less often at self seve in the winter is certainly nicer too.
When the tank gets low, I can pop $5 in and drive all weekend !

[Desolatax]

Newer diesel vehicle hardly even stink anymore, they've nearly eliminated it.
I'd really like to see more diesel vehicles here in Canada, they've got so many in europe. I love the torque that diesel gives. It's funny when you go to pass someone on the trans-can while you are towing a 32' fifth wheel on the back of your truck.