slipping on an 02 Civic already on winter tires

[alanbrenton]

I was driving early morning Saturday along Steeles Ave near Woodbine when I noticed my vehicle losing traction on several occasions. The road was slushy at the time and of course, snow was pouring.

Since my vehicle is not equipped with ABS, traction control, or electronic stability control, would slipping be normal even on Michelin X-Ice winter tires (on its 3rd winter season)?

I asked because my uncle mentioned that the Bridgestone Blizzak WS60's are much better winter tires but according to a press release, a new X-Ice will be hitting the stores in the fall.

My family currently has no need for another vehicle which is why I am putting off any 2nd car purchasing decisions until September 2011, when all car models will have come with electronic stability control. My car runs fine though resale value is so low I'd rather run it to the ground.

In the meantime, I was thinking if equipping my current vehicle with a better winter tire would be a sound decision. People on RFD have mentioned that these current winter tires should last at least for another two winter seasons.

[jjng]

I too have a Civic '02 and X-Ice winter tires (also 3rd season) and I also slide around. In fact, I had a small accident this winter when I lost control of my car. The tire still has a lot of thread and I check my tire pressure every two-three weeks.

The sliding really occurs on small patches of ice or packed in snow on the asphalt. However, during heavy rain fall (fall and spring) these still tires grip to the road.

From what I read, Nokian seems to make good winter tires but pricey. The Blizzaks might be also good tires but might not last as long and are costly.

After the accident, I'm pretty much staying away from X-Ice for now even though they might come out with a new and improved version.

Jeff

[Mr D J]

Winter tires or not, it's still rubber. You'll slip on ice patches. It's not like you have studded tires which would give you a lot more traction on ice. Besides if the car is not equipped with any fancy devices to prevent loss of control, you will slip. It's mostly those invisible ice patches that cause it. A really really thin layer of ice. Anyways, it's nothing to be surprised about.

[alanbrenton]

Thanks for your responses guys. I just wanted to know if I can keep safe the next three winter seasons by purchasing better winter tires. Do winter tires on their 3rd/4th season perform poorly relative to brand new ones? Of course, it will be less effective, but would it be only 20-30% less grip?

My next car will definitely have electronic stability control, it's just that waiting until 2011 may be a good idea as my household currently doesn't require the use of two vehicles.

[weales]

Winter tires or all season, your driving habits are a huge factor. Just because you got the best winter tires doesn't mean you go ape **** like it's summer. I'm not saying any of you are bad drivers and yes, there are times when the unknown happens but for the most part if you're alert, both hands on the wheel and allow enough stopping distance in front of you, it should be all good.

I got a 98 civic and back during the bad storm, I hit a patch of ice and slid a good a good distance but because I was cautious and allowed a ton of room in front of me, I could recover with plenty of time to spare.

Anyway I sound like a parent trying to talk his kids, sorry. Getting a nice set of winter tires is start and learning to drive in the snow is the next step.

[Ryus]

Since my vehicle is not equipped with ABS, traction control, or electronic stability control, would slipping be normal even on Michelin X-Ice winter tires (on its 3rd winter season)?




Just because you're on winter tires doesn't mean it won't slip. Even if it wasn't ice, if there's enough snow, especially like the storm on the past Saturday, you could still slip. Winter tires do not make any car invincible or make the car handle in the snow as if it were like dry pavement.

You have to understand the limitations of even the best snow tires out there.

Now imagine this: What if you were driving on all-season tires that Saturday? How much worse would it have been? Thats how you can appreciate the use of your winter tires.

[evolution921]

Exactly, you got to realize that winter tire has it's limitation as well. ESC won't do anything when you are trying to stop. Even if your vehicle has ABS, it doesn't mean that you won't lose traction, it just mean that you won't lock your wheel, a better chance that you won't slide side way (with EBD) and you can steer your vehicle while braking. But if you stop too late, you will still hit the person in front of you.

[thephenom]

Snow tires will give you way better traction accelerating and more importantly braking. They will offer extra grip when you try to turn, but no snow tires are invincible. Snow tires will NOT provide the same driving experience in snow as if you were driving in a sunny summer day, and you have to make adjustment to that.

When you say "losing traction", I'm assuming you're talking about wheel spin. Without traction control, LSD or some stability control system, if one of the wheel is in snow/slush/ice and the other isn't, you WILL experience wheel spin on that wheel. It's just physics.

Even if you do get the Blizzaks, it will still only be marginally better, but still not invincible. Just adjust your driving habits in the winter.

[BartBandy]

Winter tires, like prayer, will not suspend the laws of physics. They bite better, but snow and ice are still slippery.

Stability control is fine in some situations, but I turn it off in the city. I turn it back on for highway driving. I would never want stability control I can't turn off. Stability control will ****** your throttle and selectively apply braking to individual wheels to bring your car "under control", but when you're already going slow and trying to power your way through snow on a city street, computerized nannies are not what you want. Sometimes, you just want to claw and fishtail your way out of a predicament.

[mtl4]

I've got an 02 Civic (manual) with X-ice tires and yes they slip a bit in bad weather but I think it's the vehicle and not the tires that are the issue. It doesn't seem to matter what tires I put on this car, it seems to lose traction very easily.

[VorteC]

I think it's because of how you drive, not how good your winter tires are...
oh and, ABS doesn't help at all in winter, if anything, it's worse on the snow.

[alanbrenton]

I've got an 02 Civic (manual) with X-ice tires and yes they slip a bit in bad weather but I think it's the vehicle and not the tires that are the issue. It doesn't seem to matter what tires I put on this car, it seems to lose traction very easily.

Yes, I have a stick shift too. Maybe the gross weight is just too light. Will it help to put some bags of sand in the trunk to give the rear tires some traction?

It's good to know that I should not be spending more on winter tires, while they have enough tread. The stock tires, Firestones, were so bad, that I had turned 180 degrees twice in London, Ontario. With the x-ice's, at least, I haven't had the experience of that happening in the GTA.

[weedb0y]

Yes, I have a stick shift too. Maybe the gross weight is just too light. Will it help to put some bags of sand in the trunk to give the rear tires some traction?

It's good to know that I should not be spending more on winter tires, while they have enough tread. The stock tires, Firestones, were so bad, that I had turned 180 degrees twice in London, Ontario. With the x-ice's, at least, I haven't had the experience of that happening in the GTA.

This just makes me appreciate my All-Season Nexen's that much more. knock on wood, best tires i have purchased so far my for my 4 bangers..

[thegradas]

For Canada, and especially knowing how bad and long the winter can be, I would look at a car with following characteristics:

1. Weight is very important... heavy cars perform a lot better in snow/ice than light ones.
I drove in Europe and here some cars and can say that
VW Passat
Olds Alero
Daewoo Espero

are much better in winter than

Ford Focus
Toyota Corolla
Renault Megane
Ford Fiesta
VW Golf

2. Traction control (for grip) or ESP in addition to what almost all new vehicles have: ABS and 4 disc brakes.
3. Manual transmission for better engine braking control
4. Engine that provides max. torque @ min. rpm.
5. FWD or AWD/4WD

+ winter tires (my Blizzaks are better than the X-Ices on my second car)




I've got an 02 Civic (manual) with X-ice tires and yes they slip a bit in bad weather but I think it's the vehicle and not the tires that are the issue. It doesn't seem to matter what tires I put on this car, it seems to lose traction very easily.

[hightech]

Some things to think about:

- As tires age, the rubber compounds harden. This means that a new tire vs. a 3 year old tire with the SAME tread level will grip differently.

- The X-ice is a decent tire, but I believe the Nokian Hakka 5's are the best in the market. Here is the winter tire ratings according to the APA: http://www.apa.ca/template.asp?DocID=97

- Speed and lateral grip play a HUGE role on vehicle safety. You can have the best tires $$ can buy, but if you are driving too fast or lack lateral grip, nothing is gonna help you.

- ABS, Traction Control and Stability Systems are all safety features that may/may not help. If you lack grip or don't know how to steer when you encounter a winter slip, those three features won't be of much help to you.

My 02 Camry V6 has ABS but no traction control or stability control. What I do have is good winter driving skills (taken courses at skid control school) that more then make up for stability control, etc.

I own a pair of X-Ice which is on my second winter, and they are decent. I do find that my older Nokian Hakka 1's were better at deep snow. I plan on getting Hakka 5's when I need to get new winter tires.

[mtl4]

Yes, I have a stick shift too. Maybe the gross weight is just too light. Will it help to put some bags of sand in the trunk to give the rear tires some traction?

It's good to know that I should not be spending more on winter tires, while they have enough tread. The stock tires, Firestones, were so bad, that I had turned 180 degrees twice in London, Ontario. With the x-ice's, at least, I haven't had the experience of that happening in the GTA.

From what I have seen, the manual Civics are much worse on traction than the autos are. I think it's a combination of needing to feather the clutch (in winter there's a fine line between stalling the engine and breaking the drive wheels loose) and the bad torque steer the car seems to get which has a tendancy to break one wheel loose at a stoplight. My Civic is pretty much undriveable without snow tires on it due to the traction issue in snowy/icy conditions. The first winter I had it, I burned through a brand new set of all-season tires due to that wheel spinning / lack of traction issue and I don't drive like a madman either.

Since it is a front wheel drive car, sandbags in the rear will only make the traction issue worse. Getting softer compound tires like Blizzaks may help your traction issues but the way the car has a tendency to break one wheel loose, you can expect to burn through the tires up front alot faster than most cars. The Civic is a very reliable form of transportation and it's good on gas but when it comes to navigating winters up here in Canada, it definately leaves something to be desired. I wouldn't be driving it except it's easy on the wallet when you fill up at the pump.

[hytong]

- Speed and lateral grip play a HUGE role on vehicle safety. You can have the best tires $$ can buy, but if you are driving too fast or lack lateral grip, nothing is gonna help you.
+1, this is how vehicles went straight into poles (understeer, failed to turn in soon enough for the speed) or spun out (by trail braking, lift throttle oversteer, at entry, steady state and corner exit)

- ABS, Traction Control and Stability Systems are all safety features that may/may not help. If you lack grip or don't know how to steer when you encounter a winter slip, those three features won't be of much help to you.
leave a safety margin, plan an escape route ahead of time with space allowance (you don't need 10 car lengths but you do need space), feel where the grip is, look where you want to go, control throttle (thrust), steering (vector), brakes to guide yourself into a smooth passage

[alanbrenton]

Some things to think about:

- As tires age, the rubber compounds harden. This means that a new tire vs. a 3 year old tire with the SAME tread level will grip differently.

- The X-ice is a decent tire, but I believe the Nokian Hakka 5's are the best in the market. Here is the winter tire ratings according to the APA: http://www.apa.ca/template.asp?DocID=97

- Speed and lateral grip play a HUGE role on vehicle safety. You can have the best tires $$ can buy, but if you are driving too fast or lack lateral grip, nothing is gonna help you.

- ABS, Traction Control and Stability Systems are all safety features that may/may not help. If you lack grip or don't know how to steer when you encounter a winter slip, those three features won't be of much help to you.

My 02 Camry V6 has ABS but no traction control or stability control. What I do have is good winter driving skills (taken courses at skid control school) that more then make up for stability control, etc.

I own a pair of X-Ice which is on my second winter, and they are decent. I do find that my older Nokian Hakka 1's were better at deep snow. I plan on getting Hakka 5's when I need to get new winter tires.


The tire that got top marks was the Nokian Hakkapeliitta 5-Studded. Is it street legal to be using these in the GTA?

Which tire shop sell these tires at a reasonable price? Would it be a good time to buy now that spring is just around the corner?

[hightech]

The tire that got top marks was the Nokian Hakkapeliitta 5-Studded. Is it street legal to be using these in the GTA?

Which tire shop sell these tires at a reasonable price? Would it be a good time to buy now that spring is just around the corner?

Studded tires are not allowed in the GTA area.

Check Steelcase tires, Kal-tire, or Nantucket tire for prices.

[alanbrenton]

Studded tires are not allowed in the GTA area.

Check Steelcase tires, Kal-tire, or Nantucket tire for prices.

Thanks for all the responses. I was already beginning to think that there was something wrong my Honda Civic because of these instances when I experience slipping.

I guess the Nokian Hakkapeliitta 5 is a no go then, which is kind of sad.

[Ryus]

Another thing to keep in mind is when driving in snow, you can easily spin the tire by applying too much gas, especially when accelerating from stop. Too much torque being applied will easily spin one of the drive wheels on a car with an open differential.

The technique is to lightly accelerate until the car gets moving, although you might still get wheel spin, but it won't be as bad as if you were to gas pretty hard.

[alanbrenton]

Another thing to keep in mind is when driving in snow, you can easily spin the tire by applying too much gas, especially when accelerating from stop. Too much torque being applied will easily spin one of the drive wheels on a car with an open differential.

The technique is to lightly accelerate until the car gets moving, although you might still get wheel spin, but it won't be as bad as if you were to gas pretty hard.

Would a good rule of thumb be to steer, brake, accelerate slowly? For a FWD compact car, would oversteer or understeer be the usual problem?

[alanbrenton]

Another thing to keep in mind is when driving in snow, you can easily spin the tire by applying too much gas, especially when accelerating from stop. Too much torque being applied will easily spin one of the drive wheels on a car with an open differential.

The technique is to lightly accelerate until the car gets moving, although you might still get wheel spin, but it won't be as bad as if you were to gas pretty hard.

Would a good rule of thumb be to steer, brake, accelerate slowly? For a FWD compact car, would oversteer or understeer be the usual problem?

[Ryus]

Would a good rule of thumb be to steer, brake, accelerate slowly? For a FWD compact car, would oversteer or understeer be the usual problem?

Yes, those are good points to follow as well as some common sense, give yourself the extra buffer room in case anything happens in winter conditions. You want to make gradual changes, whether it be accelerating, turning or braking. Any sudden changes can cause unpredictable results that you may not be ready for.

End of the day, you made a wise decision to use dedicated winter tires, as they are still better than any all-season tire in the winter time. Just keep in mind that even the best winter tires will have limitations.

[harry131]

I was driving early morning Saturday along Steeles Ave near Woodbine when I noticed my vehicle losing traction on several occasions. The road was slushy at the time and of course, snow was pouring.

Since my vehicle is not equipped with ABS, traction control, or electronic stability control, would slipping be normal even on Michelin X-Ice winter tires (on its 3rd winter season)?

I asked because my uncle mentioned that the Bridgestone Blizzak WS60's are much better winter tires but according to a press release, a new X-Ice will be hitting the stores in the fall.

My family currently has no need for another vehicle which is why I am putting off any 2nd car purchasing decisions until September 2011, when all car models will have come with electronic stability control. My car runs fine though resale value is so low I'd rather run it to the ground.

In the meantime, I was thinking if equipping my current vehicle with a better winter tire would be a sound decision. People on RFD have mentioned that these current winter tires should last at least for another two winter seasons.



Yeah... my civic does that too sometimes... Its coz civic is a very light car and its easy to loose traction.

One thing that did help me was wider tires. My stock tires are 185/65/15... but this winter I got wider tires 205/60/15. They are almost the same size, only throw the speedometer off by 0.9%... which is very much acceptable. I can really feel the difference... :)

[mr_raider]

Would a good rule of thumb be to steer, brake, accelerate slowly? For a FWD compact car, would oversteer or understeer be the usual problem?

Generally, you don't want to turn at high speed, because the centrifugal force will overcome the friction from the tires and send you flying off to the side. I use three rules:

1. Come to a stop progressively, don't jam the brakes

2. Accelerate gently or just roll a little bit before hitting the gas

3. Slow down before you make a turn. The sharper the turn, the slower the speed.


Finally try not to drive uphill!

[ES_Revenge]

Winter tires, like prayer, will not suspend the laws of physics. They bite better, but snow and ice are still slippery.
While I agree with you on the winter tyres, I don't on the other count, lol.

Stability control is fine in some situations, but I turn it off in the city. I turn it back on for highway driving. I would never want stability control I can't turn off. Stability control will ****** your throttle and selectively apply braking to individual wheels to bring your car "under control", but when you're already going slow and trying to power your way through snow on a city street, computerized nannies are not what you want. Sometimes, you just want to claw and fishtail your way out of a predicament.

Stability control will only ****** your throttle (or ignition timing where ETC is not present) when the car yaws contrary to it's path (over or under steer); however the traction control portion of stability control will intervene if there is wheelspin on the drivewheels. While you're correct that this will limit power while "driving slow", the point is to maximise traction and thus movement in the direction you're travelling. If you get stuck you will want to defeat traction and/or stability control because you can use the wheelspin to assist in "rocking" the vehicle out of a stuck situation. However it's not necessary or even really desireable to turn it off in city driving.

Stability control is mainly useful in corners where the car or tyres are overdriven and unwanted over or understeer takes place. This rarely happens on the highway (though it is possible over low traction surfaces or extreme driving which would well exceed the speed limit). Even the traction control portion is rarely necessary except for the fact that most TC will disengage cruise upon activation, essentially telling the driver they should probably take control of the throttle due to wheelspin at cruise speeds.

If anything stabiliy control is more useful in the city where hard cornering may result in sliding which opposite braking can correct. TC on the other hand can be useful unless you like to hear your tyres screeching when accelerating and/or get tickets and car impoundments and license suspensions for "stunting" lol.

As for the Civic of the OP, I mean c'mon it's a Civic. Even an Si has like no low end, just take it easy on the throttle opening, that will reduce wheelspin. Your tyres could be overly worn, but that all depends on driving style and conditions. Remember winter tyres lose a lot of snow/slush "grip" once the sipes are worn out. Sipes are usually much more shallow than the tread blocks so even with good tread depth, with no sipes you've lost that 2nd advantage. It may be time for new tyres, but it seems like a little less throttle would be fine given you seem to have good tread depth otherwise.

[hytong]

Static weight on the driven axle is an advantage at a startup situation but not necessary helps when you have to dissipate that energy to a stop, change direction by adding a vector in the right place, the greater the mass, the greater the force needed to round that same bend at the same velocity.

Wider tire is better on ice and narrower tire is better on un-packed snow, esp deep fresh snow.

For relaxed/legal driving just leave the automation on, it is there to help you catch the surprises keeping your path as the car sees it, I don't think manufacturer put it there to reduce your ego. You know it is not an easy task to manage 4 brakes individually at the same time given not too many has perfected one brake pedal. :)
Since current ESC technology uses brakes to correct path change, it should be slightly more effective in a oversteer situation than understeer scenario until vector thrust is implemented for ESC at all corners.

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/esc/images/understeer.gif
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/esc/images/oversteer.gif
source (http://www.iihs.org/ratings/esc/esc_explained.html)

[ES_Revenge]

^Vector performance illustrations FTW :D