dSLR bodies to choose from

[bluewaker]

Heya,

Some of you may have remembered my post bout compacts earlier. I have been convinced to go slr as I have a very old compact (it's not that compact but I found something that will make it easier to bring around).

Anywho I have been looking at bodies ...

Olympus eVolt 510
Nikon D60, D40 (I can pay more so I really want to get something bettter than bottom of the barrel)
Rebel XT/XTi (Like these because everyone's selling cheap kit lenses for them, even if they suck, they'll do)

I wish to know which one is best for a starter and would give me the most manual control, most build quality. I've heard bad things about the rebel's feel. I know its grip is small but yeah, I'd still like to know any other options, any feedback.

Generally, I have been looking around the 500-650 for a body range. I'm hoping to spend less than 100 on a Kit Lens. (Is that too hopeful? My friend would sell me the Canon kit lens 18-55 with a UV filter for only 50 bucks so that's pretty much an advantage for the canon bodies already, does anyone know where I can get cheap Nikon/Olympus lenses?

I also heard that the Olympus uses 4/3 lenses, similar to normal compacts. Does this affect the frame negatively? I always found SLR photos so different, and maybe its because of the view. Someone give me a little feedback? Wiki can't really help haha.

[ryan_lau100]

Canon - pricey but imo marginally better glass than other makers if you are talking about the high end glass. if you want just normal lenses that are considered "ok" then i would hold off on Canon. I find they have a slight edge when it comes to second hand market

Nikon - second most recognized imo. glass is cheaper in price and marginally less quality in the high end. i would say for 95% of the people out there nikon is very very good. also can use older lenses with the newer dslr bodies which is nice.

Olympus - very amazing stock glass that comes with the body. the lenses that come stock esp the dual lense kit is amazing for coming with the body at such a cheap price. i think its ahead of all other manufacturers when it comes to stock kit lenses. also has built in CCD shift IS which is way cheaper if you want to buy longer telephoto lenses and dont want to pay premium for IS in the glass. bad thing is the second hand market for lenses is almost nonexistant cept for the stock lenses and newer lenses are slow to be released.

go to henrys or any of the larger stores and just try it first. no one can tell you which one is best because at this stage in the game when it comes to jpegs right out of the camera stock they are all not bad for personal use.

im a canon guy myself but i think if i had the chance to go back in time i would have bought into the nikon system because of the recent advancements in their system across the board.

[KorruptioN]

I'm not a fan of the Four-Thirds system. While the E-3 is a badass camera, I'm not too excited over the consumer bodies. They are well-specified, but what bothers me is the whole Four-Thirds implementation. The small sensor isn't good for noise, and the viewfinders are stupidly small on the consumer Olympus bodies. That, and the lenses are only starting to appear on the market. I wouldn't recommend one.

A Canon Rebel would give you access to Canon's entire lineup of EF lenses, which is nice, but the body itself feels fairly cheap and isn't up to par in terms of features. Adding the battery grip improves ergonomics substantially. No spot meter. A decent choice. I strongly suggest waiting for the XSi if you can.

Nikon's D40 and D60 lack autofocus motors in the body. This limits you to newer Nikon lenses. Not a big deal to most, but none of Nikon's current normal-length primes will focus with these two bodies. Decent ergonomics... and its consumer values show in the body. I'd get a cheap D80.

Sony's A200 is new and shares a similar sensor to the D40x/D60... but with better features. Sensor-shift stabilization, full spot meter, fairly large screen solid ergonomics, and access to Minolta's catalog of AF lenses. It's a good value at $649.

[bluewaker]

I am hearing more universal and friendly things about Canon so far, I think. They will upgrade well but they are expensive and the whole Rebel line is rather small and hard to hold.

The nikon's are nice but pretty much lead me to getting expensive and new lenses and I don't think I'm ready to drop a lot yet. I want to use a stock lens that I can pay less than 100 for.

The olympus will send me into trouble with noise, which is easily one of the key advantages that an SLR should have over a digital, so that's a no-no.

I guess the canon's are the best choice after all. Ugh...my parents won't let me buy used because there are no guarantees. I had been looking at people selling 20Ds for 450-500 dollars with 10k or less shutter count (claimed, but not proven). Does anyone know if exif readers can tell the shutter count?

[goofball]

IThe nikon's are nice but pretty much lead me to getting expensive and new lenses and I don't think I'm ready to drop a lot yet. I want to use a stock lens that I can pay less than 100 for.


Unless you're buying used or it is being cheaply bundled with the body, you won't easily get a new kit lens for $100. Used, you can easily find Nikon 18-55 for under $100.

Nikon's D40/D60 can come with a cheap but optically good 18-55 lens. For a bit more, the 18-55 VR if you so desire. Neither are $100 but both are better than the canon equivalent.

You don't need to buy expensive lenses but do note that any system will put you toward getting expensive lenses if you want the results typical of them. Doesn't matter which system you're invested in. Don't expect L-glass results from $100 lenses.

[ryan_lau100]

I am hearing more universal and friendly things about Canon so far, I think. They will upgrade well but they are expensive and the whole Rebel line is rather small and hard to hold.

The nikon's are nice but pretty much lead me to getting expensive and new lenses and I don't think I'm ready to drop a lot yet. I want to use a stock lens that I can pay less than 100 for.

The olympus will send me into trouble with noise, which is easily one of the key advantages that an SLR should have over a digital, so that's a no-no.

I guess the canon's are the best choice after all. Ugh...my parents won't let me buy used because there are no guarantees. I had been looking at people selling 20Ds for 450-500 dollars with 10k or less shutter count (claimed, but not proven). Does anyone know if exif readers can tell the shutter count?

no way of seeing shutter count for sure on nonpro canon bodies. you need to get up to 1D series before you can send it into canon for a true count and authenticated. im hearing different things about the shutter though from different sources. some say that the shutter will cost <400 while others have said its a lot more. ive also spoken to a couple of sales people who say that the sensor goes before the shutter most of the time. but long story short no there is no way of knowing for sure how many shots a nonpro body has taken.

[bluewaker]

As I am new to serious photography and especially hardware terms I am unfamilair with l-glass and VR lenses. What are they?

Hmm, a nikon will be more expensive then? I think I may just go for the XTi then, unless I can find someone who can actually offer me a 20D and guarantee a low shutter count (Impossible, sadly).

[KorruptioN]

The L in Canon's L-lenses stand for their flagship lineup. Typically these lens are much more expensive and come with more exotic lens elements to boost overall image quality and increase versatility in all sorts of conditions. They're identified by a red ring around the front of the lens.

IS (Canon's implementation) and VR (Nikon's) refer to in-lens image stabilization systems. The lens (or camera, depending on the system) can sense minute hand-shake and counteract it, effectively resulting in a stabilized lens. Kinda general, but I don't want to overwhelm you.

It's ignorant to say that Nikons are more expensive... it really depends on the lens. For example, Canon doesn't really have a competitor to Nikon's excellent 18-70mm "kit" lens... or that Nikon's 70-200mm 2.8VR lens is a little cheaper than Canon's equivalent 70-200mm 2.8IS.

Getting an XTi based on this fact alone isn't something I would suggest. A low-mileage 20D is a great choice. Don't discount Nikon either - a new D80 or a lightly-used D200 will give you a lot more.

[goofball]

As I am new to serious photography and especially hardware terms I am unfamilair with l-glass and VR lenses. What are they?

Hmm, a nikon will be more expensive then? I think I may just go for the XTi then, unless I can find someone who can actually offer me a 20D and guarantee a low shutter count (Impossible, sadly).

I really wouldn't suggest you go by the cost at this poinbt but by what lenses you will need and which system will offer you those lenses.

Canon doesn't have a competitor for Nikon's 18-200VR so if you wanted a lens like this, it would not come from Canon but from a 3rd party (sigma). This is just an example. Nikon doesn't have the constant f/4 zooms that Canon does. There will be lenses that aren't in one system or the other.

To base your buying decision on the price of a stock lens (18-55) that you can get for less than $100 used anywhere, is dumb, imo.

[bluewaker]

Dumb, yes, but I also know that all these camera's are fairly close in terms of features at the 600-700 for a body level. I don't want to drop a huge amount if I don't have to.

I will be buying new. So that puts the d80 out of my range. I don't want to buy a camera that has gone through 30k photos and buy it, thinking it only had 7k on it. I would try exif readers but seems like people just say that nonpro bodies don't have a shutter count and I'm pretty sure the exif readers cant even decipher shutter count if the person reset the file no.s

[hagbard]

KorruptioN - You work for Black's don't you? You think they'd split out the D40 kit that's on sale for $519 and put the body on a receipt for $430 and the lens for $90? I have $500 I can spend as a corporate gift ($500 limit), this way I can get the corp to buy the body and I buy the lens. The salespeople at the Bay Centre in Victoria didn't seem to get it. They said the lens isn't sold separately and isn't available outside of the kit.

[goofball]

Dumb, yes, but I also know that all these camera's are fairly close in terms of features at the 600-700 for a body level. I don't want to drop a huge amount if I don't have to.

I will be buying new. So that puts the d80 out of my range. I don't want to buy a camera that has gone through 30k photos and buy it, thinking it only had 7k on it. I would try exif readers but seems like people just say that nonpro bodies don't have a shutter count and I'm pretty sure the exif readers cant even decipher shutter count if the person reset the file no.s

Not really all that close though. Somewhat close but it can be the minute little features that make the difference between systems. And you really shouldn't concentrate so hard on the body, it is the lenses and flash systems you should be paying more attention to. Bodies change rapidly, lenses stay pretty much forever.

You can reset the file number but it doesn't change the exif data in terms of the shutter count info. D80 shutter count can be read by exif readers.

Again, it seems kinda backwards that you'd consider buying a pro body on the Canon side and teaming it with a lens that even with the entry-level DSLR, produces unsatisfactory results for so many, novices included. :confused:

[TenzoR]

KorruptioN - You work for Black's don't you? You think they'd split out the D40 kit that's on sale for $519 and put the body on a receipt for $430 and the lens for $90? I have $500 I can spend as a corporate gift ($500 limit), this way I can get the corp to buy the body and I buy the lens. The salespeople at the Bay Centre in Victoria didn't seem to get it. They said the lens isn't sold separately and isn't available outside of the kit.

They split for you. I bought my D50 at Blacks, PM Aden, split box no kit lens.

[hagbard]

Seems the answer to my question is no. Tried both stores.

[bluewaker]

Not really all that close though. Somewhat close but it can be the minute little features that make the difference between systems. And you really shouldn't concentrate so hard on the body, it is the lenses and flash systems you should be paying more attention to. Bodies change rapidly, lenses stay pretty much forever.

You can reset the file number but it doesn't change the exif data in terms of the shutter count info. D80 shutter count can be read by exif readers.

Again, it seems kinda backwards that you'd consider buying a pro body on the Canon side and teaming it with a lens that even with the entry-level DSLR, produces unsatisfactory results for so many, novices included. :confused:


It is backwards to you because you are thinking from a different point of view. I want a good camera body as it is my main element for the moment. I do not have grand after grand to spend on lenses. In fact, I have very little money for lenses and when I look at the price of lenses, I know I certainly won't be getting one for a couple of months if not a year or two. I want to work with a cheap lens at first so that no matter how much I upgrade my lens in the future, my body will be able to keep up. I want the amazing ISO capabilities, I want a good feel, I want great detail.

I'm assuming you're thinking that the body will die after a couple of years if the shutter breaks or the sensor goes but my lenses will stay forever. I think that my lenses will only be worth keeping once I get good lenses and that won't be for a hell of a long time. Thus, buying a Rebel XT and a 1k wide angle lens is not the way I want to go. Is that the way I should be going? If so, I still can't afford the 1k wide angle lens :P

[goofball]

It is backwards to you because you are thinking from a different point of view. I want a good camera body as it is my main element for the moment. I do not have grand after grand to spend on lenses. In fact, I have very little money for lenses and when I look at the price of lenses, I know I certainly won't be getting one for a couple of months if not a year or two. I want to work with a cheap lens at first so that no matter how much I upgrade my lens in the future, my body will be able to keep up. I want the amazing ISO capabilities, I want a good feel, I want great detail.

I'm assuming you're thinking that the body will die after a couple of years if the shutter breaks or the sensor goes but my lenses will stay forever. I think that my lenses will only be worth keeping once I get good lenses and that won't be for a hell of a long time. Thus, buying a Rebel XT and a 1k wide angle lens is not the way I want to go. Is that the way I should be going? If so, I still can't afford the 1k wide angle lens :P

It's not about spending grand after grand on lenses. You have a weird way of trying to balance things. Great detail comes more from great lenses with good body than having a pro body with crap lenses.

I'm not assuming anything about the body breaking. I'm just saying that bodies come and go much more often than a lens sees a new version with major improvements.

You seem to think that you need to spend a very large amount on lenses to get good results, which you are sadly mistaken.

[bluewaker]

Hmm, understood. So what can you think of that will give me great results for 700, all inclusive (Taxes, lenses).

[edgedamage]

Just a bit over $700
Canon EOS Rebel XTi 10.1MP SLR Digital Camera $699.99
http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10079367&logon=&langid=EN

[goofball]

Hmm, understood. So what can you think of that will give me great results for 700, all inclusive (Taxes, lenses).

If you're ok with going out of province

http://www.thecamerastore.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=32297

that leaves you money for memory card (which is cheap, thank god so you won't need to create another thread for that :lol:), tripod, or maybe an SB-400 flash for starters. SB-400 is cheapest at Audiotronic from what I can find ($138.88) though PST will make the $10 difference between ordering locally and getting from www.thecamerastore.com negligible.

Otherwise, Black's has the same D40 kit for $519 but you pay more because of PST.

Now, you will hear lots of negative about the D40 but fact is, it is a fun camera with great IQ and very good high ISO performance. It doesn't feel like the Canon XT/XTi in my opinion, it has a much solider feel to it.

The lack of AF motor shouldn't be an issue for you since you won't be buying anything for a while, it seems, and by that time, who knows what Nikon will have out (or 3rd party) for lenses that will AF on this camera.

Your lens' needs will be dictated by what you shoot. Whether you need to spend $200 or $1000 on lenses will then be made clearer. The 18-55 is not a very long zoom range but paired with the 55-200 VR, is a great combo for most starting off. If you can try, the 18-55 VR should be available now and is maybe $50 more than the 18-55 non-VR.

[ryan_lau100]

It is backwards to you because you are thinking from a different point of view. I want a good camera body as it is my main element for the moment. I do not have grand after grand to spend on lenses. In fact, I have very little money for lenses and when I look at the price of lenses, I know I certainly won't be getting one for a couple of months if not a year or two. I want to work with a cheap lens at first so that no matter how much I upgrade my lens in the future, my body will be able to keep up. I want the amazing ISO capabilities, I want a good feel, I want great detail.

I'm assuming you're thinking that the body will die after a couple of years if the shutter breaks or the sensor goes but my lenses will stay forever. I think that my lenses will only be worth keeping once I get good lenses and that won't be for a hell of a long time. Thus, buying a Rebel XT and a 1k wide angle lens is not the way I want to go. Is that the way I should be going? If so, I still can't afford the 1k wide angle lens :P

haha i said those same words two years ago... took only about two months before i bought another lense... and then more and more and more.. two years later and about $3000 more and here i am... thinking i would have just enjoyed having the stock lense and ok body

[goofball]

haha i said those same words two years ago... took only about two months before i bought another lense... and then more and more and more.. two years later and about $3000 more and here i am... thinking i would have just enjoyed having the stock lense and ok body

Same thing here. I figured that I would be ok with 2 lenses covering 18-300mm...how wrong I was...

[sfu_engineer]

If you're ok with going out of province

http://www.thecamerastore.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=32297

that leaves you money for memory card (which is cheap, thank god so you won't need to create another thread for that :lol:), tripod, or maybe an SB-400 flash for starters. SB-400 is cheapest at Audiotronic from what I can find ($138.88) though PST will make the $10 difference between ordering locally and getting from www.thecamerastore.com negligible.

Otherwise, Black's has the same D40 kit for $519 but you pay more because of PST.

Now, you will hear lots of negative about the D40 but fact is, it is a fun camera with great IQ and very good high ISO performance. It doesn't feel like the Canon XT/XTi in my opinion, it has a much solider feel to it.

The lack of AF motor shouldn't be an issue for you since you won't be buying anything for a while, it seems, and by that time, who knows what Nikon will have out (or 3rd party) for lenses that will AF on this camera.

Your lens' needs will be dictated by what you shoot. Whether you need to spend $200 or $1000 on lenses will then be made clearer. The 18-55 is not a very long zoom range but paired with the 55-200 VR, is a great combo for most starting off. If you can try, the 18-55 VR should be available now and is maybe $50 more than the 18-55 non-VR.

Argh! Don't get the SB-400. Save up for the SB-600 or get a used SB-24/25/26 instead. The SB-400 doesn't even SWIVEL! I recommend getting a used Nikon D50/D70 ($300-400), used Nikon 50mm F1.8 prime ($100) and/or a used Tamron 17-50mm F2.8 ($350). Also a flash is recommended and I got a used SB26 from www.adorama.com used for a mere $56 and it is great. It is more worth it for me compared to my old SB800 ($400).

[rubberband]

It is backwards to you because you are thinking from a different point of view. I want a good camera body as it is my main element for the moment. I do not have grand after grand to spend on lenses. In fact, I have very little money for lenses and when I look at the price of lenses, I know I certainly won't be getting one for a couple of months if not a year or two. I want to work with a cheap lens at first so that no matter how much I upgrade my lens in the future, my body will be able to keep up. I want the amazing ISO capabilities, I want a good feel, I want great detail.

I'm assuming you're thinking that the body will die after a couple of years if the shutter breaks or the sensor goes but my lenses will stay forever. I think that my lenses will only be worth keeping once I get good lenses and that won't be for a hell of a long time. Thus, buying a Rebel XT and a 1k wide angle lens is not the way I want to go. Is that the way I should be going? If so, I still can't afford the 1k wide angle lens :P

You've got it backwards.. Good lenses will always be perfectly current (my favourite is 15 years old) and work exactly the same way. They will maintain resale value, and always help you take great pictures if you care for them.

Your body will depreciate at an alarming rate, become outdated, and generally end up being disposable in the longer term.

[CSAgent]

You've got it backwards.. Good lenses will always be perfectly current (my favourite is 15 years old) and work exactly the same way. They will maintain resale value, and always help you take great pictures if you care for them.

Your body will depreciate at an alarming rate, become outdated, and generally end up being disposable in the longer term.

Adding to that. Body lifetimes are generally 1-2 years old. Example XTi entry was 2006, we have XSi coming this year.

That's not to rule it out that a replacement is a must. People are still shooting XTs and getting spectacular results.

The mistake a lot of people make when they enter the DSLR market is buying into the hype of the sales rep that they must get the latest and greatest.

Not true at all.

They never ask you, is the photographer up to date in using the latest and greatest and 85% of the time, that answer is a no.

bluewaker, to be direct and concise, if you want to be frugal and cheap, then maybe you need to step back for awhile until you have more funds to spend on lenses over bodies. DSLR and its plethora of accessories is not for the penny savers. Wide angle lenses generally begin at 17mm and below and you do not need to spend a grand on a wide angle. A Canon 10-22mm can be had for under $1k, even lower in price and about same quality is Sigma's 10-20mm which is under $500. Count on spending more on lenses than the bodies, laddy.

[ryan_lau100]

Adding to that. Body lifetimes are generally 1-2 years old. Example XTi entry was 2006, we have XSi coming this year.

That's not to rule it out that a replacement is a must. People are still shooting XTs and getting spectacular results.

The mistake a lot of people make when they enter the DSLR market is buying into the hype of the sales rep that they must get the latest and greatest.

Not true at all.

They never ask you, is the photographer up to date in using the latest and greatest and 85% of the time, that answer is a no.

bluewaker, to be direct and concise, if you want to be frugal and cheap, then maybe you need to step back for awhile until you have more funds to spend on lenses over bodies. DSLR and its plethora of accessories is not for the penny savers. Wide angle lenses generally begin at 17mm and below and you do not need to spend a grand on a wide angle. A Canon 10-22mm can be had for under $1k, even lower in price and about same quality is Sigma's 10-20mm which is under $500. Count on spending more on lenses than the bodies, laddy.

big +1
the man said it right!
the biggest mistake i made was making these little jumps.... could have saved a lot of money by just saving and going big
i find that the best way when it comes to slrs

[B Foxtrot]

someone mentioned black's has the d40 selling for $519 seems like futureshop does as well. Is this a good price for the d40 or is there a price drop expected soon? Also which retailer would be better for a lowend dslr purchase? tia

[hagbard]

Blacks is today selling the D40 with kit lens for $500 online only. Just wish they'd let me buy the lens and camera separate.

[goofball]

Blacks is today selling the D40 with kit lens for $500 online only. Just wish they'd let me buy the lens and camera separate.

Maybe you should look into buying the body separately and then getting the 18-55 VR instead?

[hagbard]

Maybe you should look into buying the body separately and then getting the 18-55 VR instead?

I don't think its available yet. I would have gotten the body for $429 but they said it would take three weeks to get in.

[goofball]

I don't think its available yet. I would have gotten the body for $429 but they said it would take three weeks to get in.

Local Vistek in Ottawa has 3 of them in stock. You don't have to buy from Black's, do you? $199 is a decent price, I think, I might jump on it just as a light walkaround-the-city lens.

[TenzoR]

Local Vistek in Ottawa has 3 of them in stock. You don't have to buy from Black's, do you? $199 is a decent price, I think, I might jump on it just as a light walkaround-the-city lens.

don't you have a 18-200? isn't that light enough ;)

[TenzoR]

I don't think its available yet. I would have gotten the body for $429 but they said it would take three weeks to get in.

How does Nikon package the D40 now?

In the D50, it was camera + lens in separate box and a bigger outer box that enclose both. The Blacks CSR simply order the D50 body and give the one thats in the kit. Unless the D40 + lens are all in one box, that's why they won't separate?

[goofball]

don't you have a 18-200? isn't that light enough ;)

No, no 18-200. I was hoping for 16-85 that wasn't going to be priced almost identical to 18-200 but that wasn't the case.

I don't really use all that much range when i'm out and about. Normally, I carry about 3 lenses with me (all fast) so 18-200 wouldn't be used all that much, I don't think. The 18-55 VR would just be for those times I wanted something small and light with a bit of zoom.

[cyder]

How does Nikon package the D40 now?

In the D50, it was camera + lens in separate box and a bigger outer box that enclose both. The Blacks CSR simply order the D50 body and give the one thats in the kit. Unless the D40 + lens are all in one box, that's why they won't separate?

they are packaged seperately in a bigger box like that.

[bobaroo]

I just bought a D40 kit for $485 at Black's. They Price-matched Bestbuy's 10% off sale (539-54=485).

http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0926INGFS10082555&catid=20222

Good deal?

[hagbard]

How does Nikon package the D40 now?

In the D50, it was camera + lens in separate box and a bigger outer box that enclose both. The Blacks CSR simply order the D50 body and give the one thats in the kit. Unless the D40 + lens are all in one box, that's why they won't separate?

Separate receipts, full items. That is, I want the entire kit I just want them to put on one receipt $445 for the camera and $55 for the lens. That way I can get the body as a corporate gift.

[TenzoR]

Separate receipts, full items. That is, I want the entire kit I just want them to put on one receipt $445 for the camera and $55 for the lens. That way I can get the body as a corporate gift.

I see why they won't do it ...

[bobaroo]

Separate receipts, full items. That is, I want the entire kit I just want them to put on one receipt $445 for the camera and $55 for the lens. That way I can get the body as a corporate gift.

I doubt they will do this, as it will expose them to you potentially having the ability of returning the body for $445 and keeping the lens for $55.
The kit is puchased as a single unit from Nikon and should be sold as such.

Isn't your gift limit $500 anyhow? with the new price drop, doesn't the kit fallunder $500? or does the $500 include taxes?

What you are asking for is kind of like going to Loblaws and asking for them to split up a 6 pack of paper towels on your receipt as three 2-packs.

[hagbard]

I doubt they will do this, as it will expose them to you potentially having the ability of returning the body for $445 and keeping the lens for $55.
The kit is puchased as a single unit from Nikon and should be sold as such.

Isn't your gift limit $500 anyhow? with the new price drop, doesn't the kit fallunder $500? or does the $500 include taxes?

What you are asking for is kind of like going to Loblaws and asking for them to split up a 6 pack of paper towels on your receipt as three 2-packs.

The $500 includes taxes. The choice for them is doing it and making a sale or not and my buying everything separate elsewhere (though for a bit more money). I'm thinking if the price match the lens (which they already said they'd do) and put it as a deduction on the receipt, RevCan might not be able to determine which the discount was for and I can say it was for the camera and not the lens, hence under $500.

[bluewaker]

I realize dSLR isn't for penny pinching. However, I really want to try and get into it with a body. I am a really busy student but I enjoy taking the time off to enjoy certain things and photography has been something I've enjoyed for a while (mainly looking at other peoples' albums and going out wiht my own P&S and trying what I can).

The body, then, will last me a long time. Yes, I know lenses are important and when I get the money, I will spend more into lenses than the bodies (duh.). For now though, I want to spend on a body that I can keep for a bit (50k shutter life is quite a bit for a person who won't even be able to take 100 shots in a week) and experiment with lenses and borrow them from friends (who have already offered to lend me lenses).

The new XTi isn't an option, it is 700 + tax, comes to 800. If anythign, I'd buy the XTi body and get the 18-55 lens from my friend. Is the lens that comes with the D40 motor assisted, so it can AF?

[cyder]

I realize dSLR isn't for penny pinching. However, I really want to try and get into it with a body. I am a really busy student but I enjoy taking the time off to enjoy certain things and photography has been something I've enjoyed for a while (mainly looking at other peoples' albums and going out wiht my own P&S and trying what I can).

The body, then, will last me a long time. Yes, I know lenses are important and when I get the money, I will spend more into lenses than the bodies (duh.). For now though, I want to spend on a body that I can keep for a bit (50k shutter life is quite a bit for a person who won't even be able to take 100 shots in a week) and experiment with lenses and borrow them from friends (who have already offered to lend me lenses).

The new XTi isn't an option, it is 700 + tax, comes to 800. If anythign, I'd buy the XTi body and get the 18-55 lens from my friend. Is the lens that comes with the D40 motor assisted, so it can AF?
the lens that comes with the d40 is AF-S so it has a motor built in the lens to focus. Most Nikon lenses seem to be AF which would require a motor in the body to focus. Not too big of a deal with macro.
There is an AFS 200mm zoom VR lens that is 300 by nikon (on sale at futureshop for less in hot deals) so there is quite a bit of zoom available in the budget range for d40 users. I think the 300mm zoom model with vr is around 500

[TenzoR]

I realize dSLR isn't for penny pinching. However, I really want to try and get into it with a body. I am a really busy student but I enjoy taking the time off to enjoy certain things and photography has been something I've enjoyed for a while (mainly looking at other peoples' albums and going out wiht my own P&S and trying what I can).

The body, then, will last me a long time. Yes, I know lenses are important and when I get the money, I will spend more into lenses than the bodies (duh.). For now though, I want to spend on a body that I can keep for a bit (50k shutter life is quite a bit for a person who won't even be able to take 100 shots in a week) and experiment with lenses and borrow them from friends (who have already offered to lend me lenses).

The new XTi isn't an option, it is 700 + tax, comes to 800. If anythign, I'd buy the XTi body and get the 18-55 lens from my friend. Is the lens that comes with the D40 motor assisted, so it can AF?

Buy used. You can easily pick a decent Nikon D50/70s or Canon XT or 20D for a good price. The kit lens can be found for under $100 easily but I would get the 50mm f1.8. Unless the SLR Camera body are abused, they usually last a long time.

[goofball]

I realize dSLR isn't for penny pinching. However, I really want to try and get into it with a body. I am a really busy student but I enjoy taking the time off to enjoy certain things and photography has been something I've enjoyed for a while (mainly looking at other peoples' albums and going out wiht my own P&S and trying what I can).

The body, then, will last me a long time. Yes, I know lenses are important and when I get the money, I will spend more into lenses than the bodies (duh.). For now though, I want to spend on a body that I can keep for a bit (50k shutter life is quite a bit for a person who won't even be able to take 100 shots in a week) and experiment with lenses and borrow them from friends (who have already offered to lend me lenses).

The new XTi isn't an option, it is 700 + tax, comes to 800. If anythign, I'd buy the XTi body and get the 18-55 lens from my friend. Is the lens that comes with the D40 motor assisted, so it can AF?

You really should look into what the body offers that you need.

Nikon D40 doesn't have wireless flash control built in. May not seem important now but if you see the price of an SU-800 or add the price of an SC-28 for off-camera flash control, you may think twice about not going with something like a used D80, which has this built-in. Off-camera flash is great for macro photography, as well as for other situations where having it direct on-camera is not the optimal placement.

Also, without a built-in AF motor, you are going to have to manually focus many of the great lenses out there, which you may or may not enjoy doing, I don't know. For macro, not a big deal but for many of the other lenses (mainly Nikon primes), you are going to have to manual focus. Whether they update their entire line to AF-S is another story and that may take time. Remember that photography is really about here and now, and just that quick, the moment is gone.

If you're really going to be keeping the body that long, then spend the right amount of money to ensure you get the features that you want. You're still doing this kinda backwards, seeing as how you're still scrimping on the body when you know you want it to last you quite a while. So you're trying to scrimp on the body, scrimp on the lens.... You should just save up and get it right the first time.

I hope I'm not sounding too harsh on you but this is reality. It would be different if this was for a second body, then I could easily recommend a D40 but if this is the primary body and you really want to get involved in this, it may not meet your wants/needs.

[bluewaker]

You really should look into what the body offers that you need.

Nikon D40 doesn't have wireless flash control built in. May not seem important now but if you see the price of an SU-800 or add the price of an SC-28 for off-camera flash control, you may think twice about not going with something like a used D80, which has this built-in. Off-camera flash is great for macro photography, as well as for other situations where having it direct on-camera is not the optimal placement.

Also, without a built-in AF motor, you are going to have to manually focus many of the great lenses out there, which you may or may not enjoy doing, I don't know. For macro, not a big deal but for many of the other lenses (mainly Nikon primes), you are going to have to manual focus. Whether they update their entire line to AF-S is another story and that may take time. Remember that photography is really about here and now, and just that quick, the moment is gone.

If you're really going to be keeping the body that long, then spend the right amount of money to ensure you get the features that you want. You're still doing this kinda backwards, seeing as how you're still scrimping on the body when you know you want it to last you quite a while. So you're trying to scrimp on the body, scrimp on the lens.... You should just save up and get it right the first time.

I hope I'm not sounding too harsh on you but this is reality. It would be different if this was for a second body, then I could easily recommend a D40 but if this is the primary body and you really want to get involved in this, it may not meet your wants/needs.


I didn't consider the point about great lenses not having a motor. Good point, especially if I plan on keeping the body for a while. I will try not to scrimp on either. My logic tells me that I can always upgrade a lens more easily than a body. Why? Because lenses come in certain interfaces. If I choose a good lens, then I will have to find a body for it. I am trying to find a body that will allow me to get both the cheapest and the most expensive lenses. I was thinking about the nikon but what you just said hit me.

Yes, I will scrimp on the lens for now. I will get a good body first. Then I will go for a lens and build on. Based on my needs, I think that a used Canon 20D will suit me the best. If not that, then the XTi (despite it's crappy grip) It the AF motor, has wireless multiflash capabilities, has great FPS, and with <10k used shutter activations, I may be able to snag a deal. I have two people I'm talking to.

1) a guy selling his 20D body + extra batt + everythign in box, for 450. Says shutter count is at 7.1k to 8k. No way to confirm. Lives FAR from me, Missisauga. I live in scarborough.
2) guy selling his 20D body + everything in box for 500. 10k~ shutter actuations, no way to confirm. Lives close to me.

Seems like 1) is the better deal, but I'm checking 2) out since he's closer. 20D seems like a good camera.

[KorruptioN]

The XTi doesn't do wireless flash out of the box...

[goofball]

Based on my needs, I think that a used Canon 20D will suit me the best. If not that, then the XTi (despite it's crappy grip) It the AF motor, has wireless multiflash capabilities, has great FPS, and with <10k used shutter activations, I may be able to snag a deal. I have two people I'm talking to.

What needs would that be?

Most of Canon's lineup now has USM (in-lens motor) so it's not a big point to have in-body motor for your purposes.

I don't believe the 20D has wireless flash control built-in, the 30D does though.

[bluewaker]

Amateurish uses. Not professional. And low frequency.

20D does have wireless according to DPreview.

Really now? USM lens? Which bodies, that canon has, relies on USM? Besides, a body with AF can still use USM lenses I think, while bodies without AF cannot use non-USM lenses. That's an advantage for the motor-assisted bodies.

[goofball]

20D does have wireless according to DPreview.

Really now? USM lens? Which bodies, that canon has, relies on USM? Besides, a body with AF can still use USM lenses I think, while bodies without AF cannot use non-USM lenses. That's an advantage for the motor-assisted bodies.

Question is, which lenses are you looking to use that aren't USM? You could sit here arguing the merits of having the in-body focus motor, I won't. I've said it before, pay attention to the lenses you intend to use, you may find you don't even need to look at lenses without USM.

According to Thom Hogan (who is a Nikon user), the 20D does not have the ability built-in (that is, without additional hardware but to use the onboard flash) to control flashes wirelessly.

http://www.bythom.com/20D.htm

Flash abilities, though much improved over the first of Canon's consumer offerings, still seem a bit lacking; I would have liked to have the ability to turn the on-board flash into a controller for remote wireless TTL, ala the D70s.

I'm not a Canon user so I may be wrong on this (someone please correct me if I am).

[FlyerGuy]

Sheesh, this thread is quickly getting out of hand fast.

20D does have wireless according to DPreview.You read wrong.

Canon has no built-in wireless flash, ala CLS from Nikon. You need a transmitter like the ST-E2 or a select Speedlite to act as a master. Or third party options but then you lose TTL.Really now? USM lens? Which bodies, that canon has, relies on USM?Um, every body ever made under the EOS line?Besides, a body with AF can still use USM lenses I think, while bodies without AF cannot use non-USM lenses. That's an advantage for the motor-assisted bodies.You're confused.

Canon doesn't make camera bodies with built-in AF motors. Every EF and EF-S lens ever made since its invention in 1987 has had the AF motor built-in straight into the lens, with a few notable exceptions.

Nikon on the other hand has the AF motor in the camera bodies. Low end models like the D40 don't have that motor and rely on AF-S lenses.

And while we're on the subject, USM is a Canon thing. Other companies have their own names.

For Canon, it doesn't mean anything other than faster, more accurate and silent focusing. It depends on which version of USM it is, but still.

Just about every EF and EF-S lens you buy will autofocus with every single EOS camera body.

[bluewaker]

Also, without a built-in AF motor, you are going to have to manually focus many of the great lenses out there, which you may or may not enjoy doing, I don't know. For macro, not a big deal but for many of the other lenses (mainly Nikon primes), you are going to have to manual focus. Whether they update their entire line to AF-S is another story and that may take time. Remember that photography is really about here and now, and just that quick, the moment is gone.



You're confused.

Canon doesn't make camera bodies with built-in AF motors. Every EF and EF-S lens ever made since its invention in 1987 has had the AF motor built-in straight into the lens, with a few notable exceptions.


In the context that I read the first quote, I had started to assume Canon had built-in motors. My bad. Then I don't see the validity of the first quote since I probably can't find anything with an auto focus motor inside anyways (does the 20D have an AF motor? I looked on DPReview but I still wasn't sure.)

I also thought USM was a specific name given to certain lenses and was in a different class from EF-S and EF. I googled it but, these things don't really make themselves blatantly clear.

So after all this I've been told the following:

Lens>Body.
If I must prioritize body, I should do it based on what lenses I want (which is a totally stupid idea imo, there are lenses for every Canon, I'd think and the 20D, the XTi and the XT all share the same lens interface. The nikon D's share the same lens interface.) I don't want to look into an investment I won't have to make for a long long while especially since I have no idea where to start or what kind of lens I want (tele, wide angle, etc). It's rather overwhelming for a beginner. I am just posting what I thought the cameras were based on DPreview and the context of the posts made.

[FlyerGuy]

I've explained it in my previous post.Canon doesn't make camera bodies with built-in AF motors. Every EF and EF-S lens ever made since its invention in 1987 has had the AF motor built-in straight into the lens, with a few notable exceptions.

Nikon on the other hand has the AF motor in the camera bodies. Low end models like the D40 don't have that motor and rely on AF-S lenses.What goofball said is true for Nikon and not Canon.

Look, I'll say it simply.

Canon has no AF motor in their camera bodies. But just about every single EF and EF-S lens has that AF motor in them. So you don't have to give a rat's ass about which lens you're getting, all of them will autofocus with any compatible Canon camera body.

Nikon has the AF motor in most of their camera bodies, except the low end models such as the D40 which will only autofocus with a limited selection of lens, which will grow with time.

USM means the AF motor is an ultrasonic motor. You have EF and EF-S lenses with and without USM.

I've only looked over the thread quickly but your best course of action is to get a camera body which you can afford for now, from the looks of it, the used 20D or a new XT or XTi. Then, stick with the kit lens and learn with it and only upgrade when you'll be limited by it.

[bluewaker]

Alright thanks for the helpful posts. =D