Finance or Accounting Major?

[Justin]

I am currenty in my second year of university. The first two years are the same for all students, and in Feb. of second year all students select their major. Finance and Accouning require the highest average to get into due to the higher demand, but my average is high enough so that is not a concern.

I am having a hard time deciding between accounting or finance. I did better in my intro accounting class and found it easier, but also a little boring and repetitive. I found my intro finance a fair bit harder (still got 84%), but also more interesting.

Other majors such as HR, marketing, management do not interest me.


Which major is easier to find a good paying job when done university? Which generally has a higher salary?

I know for accouting a designation will probably be needed? Is this true? What about finance?

If a need to spend a couple years after university working towards a CA, CMA or CGA for accounting and finance has no such requirement to get a good job, i might choose finance just because of that. But, if finance will also require continued education then I have no idea

[SoGood]

I am currenty in my second year of university. The first two years are the same for all students, and in Feb. of second year all students select their major. Finance and Accouning require the highest average to get into due to the higher demand, but my average is high enough so that is not a concern.

I am having a hard time deciding between accounting or finance. I did better in my intro accounting class and found it easier, but also a little boring and repetitive. I found my intro finance a fair bit harder (still got 84%), but also more interesting.

Other majors such as HR, marketing, management do not interest me.


Which major is easier to find a good paying job when done university? Which generally has a higher salary?

I know for accouting a designation will probably be needed? Is this true? What about finance?

If a need to spend a couple years after university working towards a CA, CMA or CGA for accounting and finance has no such requirement to get a good job, i might choose finance just because of that. But, if finance will also require continued education then I have no idea

there are designations for finance as well. CPA, CFA i believe...i'm not too sure what the requirements are. check in with your school, they should have info.
also choose what you like best, if your not interested in what you will be doing, then sure you'll get money, but you're going to be dreading your work.
if you want to open more doors, you can do a double major or minor in the one you don't major in.

[R8247]

Accounting is boring as hell, and this is coming from an Accounting major.

I wish I had majored in finance. Damn CA designation had me brainwashed :evil:

[the_fm]

Accounting is boring as hell, and this is coming from an Accounting major.

I wish I had majored in finance. Damn CA designation had me brainwashed :evil:

lol. you know you can specialized in finance. that's what i might do but for now, just get my degree and my designation

[Azxster]

You know the CFA doesn't care what degree you have?

You could always opt for a MBA to open up doors...

[T3NSION]

I'm doing a double in Accounting & Finance. It takes 4 more courses to double in Finance if you're going to be doing the CASB requirements for Accounting.

If I could choose one, I'd choose Accounting. More jobs out there; there really aren't many jobs for Finance majors in Canada. You have to be a cream of the crop student to land a good job with a Finance major.

If you're looking for more interesting classes, Finance is the way to go. Accounting classes are also quite a bit harder in my opinion.

[alysomji]

There seem to be too many students heading into accounting right now - and it wouldn't surprise me if there's a lot of unemployed accounting students in a few years, or accounting students working in jobs they wish they weren't in. I'm not saying this will definitely happen - but it certainly seems quite possible to me. There are already a fair number of accounting students in one of these situations.

For finance, you would be looking at doing one or more of the CFA, CFP or MBA designations (for starters, after your degree). The CPA designation is the US equivalent of the CA designation - and is thereby an accounting (and not a finance-related) designation. There actually are a lot of finance jobs out there. Maybe not a lot of i-banking jobs - but quite a few jobs in other areas of finance. The Big 5 banks in Canada always hire a lot of students. Keep in mind, also, that many older finance professionals will need to be replaced as Canada's baby boomers continue to get older.

[noktrnl]

Have to agree.. there are far too many accounting students out there. They're attracted to the stability, above-average income, and (I use this term very loosely) prestige. Sadly, most of them have no idea what accounting is about.

Finance is pretty broad.
The really good positions in Finance (e.g. i-banking) are few and far between in Canada.
The other positions (e.g. financial planning) don't really make use of your Finance degree.

[adehbone]

Based on what I hear out here in Calgary, they are dying for CAs and insurance students. No CAs want to move out there, heck no CMAs even, or students willing to be one or other.

The insurance industry is growing like crazy across the country. CFA demand in insurance in 3-5 yrs will be crazy high, the need for risk analysts as well.

The problem though I hear, from 30ish CAs, is this generation of students are ridiculous and frustrating. No one wants to move west, no one wants to put max overtime, everyone wants to be an banker, or have a perfect work/life balance.

So the demand is out there, the reason these students are unemployed now and will continue to be, is mostly based on their attitude. It reminds to the CS industry after dot-com boost, they were looking for true talent not any moron who thought they could become an overnight millionaire.

I am sure if you major in Insurance/Finance, and move into the insurance industry and rack up a CFA, you will be in demand.

[urban1]

Calgary definitely has a shortage of accountants especially CAs. I was under the impression this was the case across Canada. CAs are really fighting to stay relevant and are having difficulty attracting students. The business world has changed and the CA profession isnt as attractive as it used to be. And theres too many old school CAs who dont like change and hence CA firms operate the same way as they always have. On the CA website you can find the report they had done when they were considering the merger with CMAs. The report details all the threats to the CA designation.

Have to agree.. there are far too many accounting students out there. They're attracted to the stability, above-average income, and (I use this term very loosely) prestige. Sadly, most of them have no idea what accounting is about.

Finance is pretty broad.
The really good positions in Finance (e.g. i-banking) are few and far between in Canada.
The other positions (e.g. financial planning) don't really make use of your Finance degree.

Based on what I hear out here in Calgary, they are dying for CAs and insurance students. No CAs want to move out there, heck no CMAs even, or students willing to be one or other.

The insurance industry is growing like crazy across the country. CFA demand in insurance in 3-5 yrs will be crazy high, the need for risk analysts as well.

The problem though I hear, from 30ish CAs, is this generation of students are ridiculous and frustrating. No one wants to move west, no one wants to put max overtime, everyone wants to be an banker, or have a perfect work/life balance.

So the demand is out there, the reason these students are unemployed now and will continue to be, is mostly based on their attitude. It reminds to the CS industry after dot-com boost, they were looking for true talent not any moron who thought they could become an overnight millionaire.

I am sure if you major in Insurance/Finance, and move into the insurance industry and rack up a CFA, you will be in demand.

[SoGood]

Calgary definitely has a shortage of accountants especially CAs. I was under the impression this was the case across Canada. CAs are really fighting to stay relevant and are having difficulty attracting students. The business world has changed and the CA profession isnt as attractive as it used to be. And theres too many old school CAs who dont like change and hence CA firms operate the same way as they always have. On the CA website you can find the report they had done when they were considering the merger with CMAs. The report details all the threats to the CA designation.

CA's having difficulty attracting students?
is it because CMA is so leinient on the requirements now that many are enticed by it and go for that designation?

[harlequin]

Keep in mind, also, that many older finance professionals will need to be replaced as Canada's baby boomers continue to get older.

.... yes, this is true for finance professionals and most other job categories as well, including accountants. As of Jan 2003, 25% of CAs were 55 or older:

http://www.icao.on.ca/CA/StrategicCrossroads/1009page5156.pdf

See page 7 of the above document.

It's difficult to see how there will be a surplus of accountants if a quarter of them are retiring in 5 to 10 years.

[faken]

It's not always about the money.. pursue the one you find more interesting.

[alysomji]

It's difficult to see how there will be a surplus of accountants if a quarter of them are retiring in 5 to 10 years.

I was waiting for you to bring your statistics on the large amount of room there is for accounting students to get jobs. Yet, the fact remains that many of them either get jobs they don't want or are stuck being unemployed.

Everywhere I look, BBA and BCom students are, for the most part, concentrating in accounting. Just look at how many posts there are on this board related to accounting - as corroboration of what I'm saying. The hype around becoming a CA reminds me of when everyone studied CS in hopes of getting a job in the hot IT market around 10 years ago. The seemingly endless demand for computer scientists ended up in a crash - leaving a lot of educated and qualified people in IT looking for jobs.

Right now, it seems like there will be (if there isn't already) an oversupply of students wanting accounting jobs. Employers like the Big 4 will simply take their pickings and let the rest rot. They've already started hiring less students than they have in the last couple of years, from what I've seen - particularly on the assurance side.

[sunnybono]

Accounting is boring as hell, and this is coming from an Accounting major.

I wish I had majored in finance. Damn CA designation had me brainwashed :evil:

Go the CMA route then. Its definitely not boring being a CMA. A lot of strategy work involved with planning and execution that follows!!!!!!

sk

[KevC]

Definitely Accounting.

Sure it seems kinda dry, but that's only the first few years of work. When you get your CA and go beyond, life gets far more interesting.

The reason I say accounting is, the program is geared so specifically there. I'd recommend Waterloo (simply cos Co-Op placement yeilds Big4 interships after first year! - otherwise I think the city is boring), or UTM.

You can get your CFA without a finance background, it's all self study. You can't get a CA without your 51 credit hours. Therefore, if you choose an accounting program, you can easily jump ship to CFA if need be. Not the other way around.

[TotallyKiller]

Go the CMA route then. Its definitely not boring being a CMA. A lot of strategy work involved with planning and execution that follows!!!!!!

sk



In the end it's the job you get with your designation, not the designation itself. Not all CMA's have the same job, same with CA's, CFA's, CGA's, etc. It's not possible to generalize like that.

It would be like saying "get your law degree - it's never boring", except for the fact that some lawyers are sports agents and some are ambulance chasers.

[Azxster]

Definitely Accounting.

You can get your CFA without a finance background, it's all self study. You can't get a CA without your 51 credit hours. Therefore, if you choose an accounting program, you can easily jump ship to CFA if need be. Not the other way around.

That is how I feel too, as well as my accounting professor. The CA designation is very structured and well organized.

[urban1]

Your statement is not exaclty true.

There is no prescribed educational requirement for the CFA program other than a four year bachelors degree (or work experience as specfied). Yes, you can enroll in and pass the 3 exams without a finance background, but you will not be awarded the charter without work experience.

However, to earn the charter you need 4 years of work experience. Yes, you can enroll in and pass the 3 exams without a finance background, but you will not be awarded the charter without work experience.

Theres hundreds if not thousands of individuals out there, especially in Toronto, who have passed all 3 levels of the program but have not been awarded the CFA charter and are not working in a related industry. Go ask them if they can earn the CFA Charter without a finance background?

One additional comment: The CFA and CA programs are different beasts. CA is a starting point for a career. You get into the CA program when finishing university and the CA is almost a continuation of learning and school. The CFA is a "certification" for a professional. You get a job in the finance/investment industry based on your merits, you practice your profession, you complete the CFA exams, and eventually earn your charter.
Thats a generalization but its pretty accurate. (Years ago, simplying enrolling in the CFA program may have gotten you a job in the industry but today its no longer the case and as I stated above, theres many people who have passed the exams but cant get a foot in the door in the biz.)



CFA Charter and Regular Membership Guidelines: Work Experience

Amount
Four years of acceptable professional work experience are required for regular membership. An individual must be a regular member to be eligible for the award of the CFA Charter. This experience may be accrued while the candidate is in the CFA Program, after the candidate has passed all three levels of exams, or from previous positions.

You are required to spend at least 50 percent of your time in these activities to accrue the required professional work experience. Summer, part-time, and internship positions do not qualify.



Type
Acceptable professional work experience as it relates to applicants seeking to become charterholder members, or regular members, includes activities that consist to a majority extent of:

(i) evaluating or applying financial, economic, and/or statistical data as part of the investment decision-making process involving securities or similar investments, which includes, but is not limited to, publicly traded and privately placed stocks, bonds, and mortgages and their derivatives; commodity-based derivatives and mutual funds; and other investment assets, such as real estate and commodities, if these other investment assets are held as part of a diversified, securities-oriented investment portfolio; or

(ii) supervising, directly or indirectly, persons who practice such activities; or

(iii) teaching such activities.



The following job titles are provided as a guide only. Job titles alone cannot convey the true nature of the underlying job duties. Therefore, to assess professional work experience, evaluate the nature of your job activity, as described previously, rather than merely the job title. Please be as descriptive as possible when submitting your work experience.

Sample Job Titles

Titles alone cannot determine your qualifications for regular membership. You must spend at least 50% of your time in the investment decision-making process.



Client service representative or relationship manager
Compliance analyst/officer
Investment consultant
Corporate chief financial officer
Corporate finance analyst
Investment banking analyst
Derivatives analyst
Economist
Institutional sales professional/business development (buy and sell side)
Investment strategist
Portfolio manager
Private client investment advisor
Professor/Instructor
Quantitative investment or risk analyst
Real estate investment manager
Regulator
Supervisor of investment firm
Security/investment analyst
Securities trader
Valuator of closely held business
Venture capital analyst





You can get your CFA without a finance background, it's all self study. You can't get a CA without your 51 credit hours. Therefore, if you choose an accounting program, you can easily jump ship to CFA if need be. Not the other way around.

[djnorm112]

Definitely Accounting.

Sure it seems kinda dry, but that's only the first few years of work. When you get your CA and go beyond, life gets far more interesting.

The reason I say accounting is, the program is geared so specifically there. I'd recommend Waterloo (simply cos Co-Op placement yeilds Big4 interships after first year! - otherwise I think the city is boring), or UTM.

You can get your CFA without a finance background, it's all self study. You can't get a CA without your 51 credit hours. Therefore, if you choose an accounting program, you can easily jump ship to CFA if need be. Not the other way around.

Hmm if you don't get a Big 4 job for your first co-op term you are kinda of screwed as it is hard to find a big 4 placement in coop afterwards if you choose Waterloo.

Waterloo is great if you can get a big 4 job 1st coop term as u will be set.

otherwise you end up working harder for the same thing the rest of your years there compared to other business schoools and highly competitive.

IMO Waterloo teaching isn't that great for accounting contrary to popular belief it is the students that make the school stand out academically (can't go wrong when over half the class are 90% avg asian kids from high school)

IMO Schulich/Queen grads get more respect in the real accounting world compared to Waterloo. Waterloo = human handbook that is your rep.

[djnorm112]

Finance = more interesting jobs but far less out there especially for new grad
Accounting = boring but a bit more jobs and probably more stable...

If you know you are superstar and can land a job in finance after grad go the finance route

if you are unsure do your accounting...safer bet. Can look for finance jobs after your CA and do CFA...along the way.

[harlequin]

I was waiting for you to bring your statistics on the large amount of room there is for accounting students to get jobs. Yet, the fact remains that many of them either get jobs they don't want or are stuck being unemployed.

Everywhere I look, BBA and BCom students are, for the most part, concentrating in accounting. Just look at how many posts there are on this board related to accounting - as corroboration of what I'm saying. The hype around becoming a CA reminds me of when everyone studied CS in hopes of getting a job in the hot IT market around 10 years ago. The seemingly endless demand for computer scientists ended up in a crash - leaving a lot of educated and qualified people in IT looking for jobs.

Right now, it seems like there will be (if there isn't already) an oversupply of students wanting accounting jobs. Employers like the Big 4 will simply take their pickings and let the rest rot. They've already started hiring less students than they have in the last couple of years, from what I've seen - particularly on the assurance side.

I was waiting for your usual passionate defense. Yes, many accounting students get jobs they don't want or are stuck being unemployed, but this is uninteresting because it is true for most other career fields as well. It's tough to pick the right career for yourself in your late teens or early twenties - this is one reason why the average person will have several careers in their life.

There certainly are many posts in RFD about accounting, but it does not corroborate your theory. Some of these posts are by accounting students looking for jobs, some about students who found jobs, and some, like yourself, who work as accountants. Governments in North America don't corroborate what you say either:

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos001.htm

http://www.jobfutures.ca/noc/111p3.shtml

Your comparison to the dot com boom and bust is interesting, but I wouldn't put too much store by it. Accounting is a well-established profession that is unlikely to see the wild swings in employment that is typical of the much newer IT career fields. And there has always been an oversupply of students who want to work for the Big 4. They can pick and choose who they want to hire. But after these students pass the UFE and get their hours in, its a whole different ball game, amigo. They have to fight (an often losing battle) to keep them from being poached by industry. In fact, prospects for experienced accountants is particularly hot, and if 25% of CAs are leaving in 5 to 10 years, I expect it will remain hot.

[clevelandindians]

does CMA require less of the background in finance and accounting??
i just heard about this accelerated program from CMA-Ontario rep.....
she told me that basically u'll need to do this:
get uni degree--> join accelerated program (to get the necessary knowledge for accounting and some commerce stuff) --> write the entrance exam --> pass it and get into the 2 yr Strategic Leadership program while working full-time at the same time..... and then u'll get ur CMA....
but it seems like it's all too good to b true.....

anyone who's done CMA or know someone that has gone through this process can help me out???
i'm a bio and econ student ....and might be thinking about changing into the accounting field.....

thnx

[Justin]

Thanks for the replies!

There is no option at this univerusity to do a double major and no minor either. It is possible though, to take a couple classes as electives from another major, but no double major or minor will be recognized when graduating.

From what i understand, it is much easier to switch go into finance after I graduate with an accouting degree, than it would be to switch into accounting with a finance degree. Is this correct?

[djnorm112]

Thanks for the replies!

There is no option at this univerusity to do a double major and no minor either. It is possible though, to take a couple classes as electives from another major, but no double major or minor will be recognized when graduating.

From what i understand, it is much easier to switch go into finance after I graduate with an accouting degree, than it would be to switch into accounting with a finance degree. Is this correct?


i would say that is generally correct but i don't see why you would want to switch to accounting after landing a job related to finance :razz:

[alysomji]

I was waiting for your usual passionate defense. Yes, many accounting students get jobs they don't want or are stuck being unemployed, but this is uninteresting because it is true for most other career fields as well. It's tough to pick the right career for yourself in your late teens or early twenties - this is one reason why the average person will have several careers in their life.

There certainly are many posts in RFD about accounting, but it does not corroborate your theory. Some of these posts are by accounting students looking for jobs, some about students who found jobs, and some, like yourself, who work as accountants. Governments in North America don't corroborate what you say either:

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos001.htm

http://www.jobfutures.ca/noc/111p3.shtml

Your comparison to the dot com boom and bust is interesting, but I wouldn't put too much store by it. Accounting is a well-established profession that is unlikely to see the wild swings in employment that is typical of the much newer IT career fields. And there has always been an oversupply of students who want to work for the Big 4. They can pick and choose who they want to hire. But after these students pass the UFE and get their hours in, its a whole different ball game, amigo. They have to fight (an often losing battle) to keep them from being poached by industry. In fact, prospects for experienced accountants is particularly hot, and if 25% of CAs are leaving in 5 to 10 years, I expect it will remain hot.

I spoke about accounting students - not established CAs. Big difference.

There's an oversupply of accounting students looking for the same jobs. This is what I said in my last post. Your entire post doesn't do anything to refute this key point. Your assumption that all accounting students eventually become established CAs is ridiculous.

[harlequin]

I spoke about accounting students - not established CAs. Big difference.

Not really - all accountants had to have been accounting students before they became accountants. If you are forecasting widespread unemployment for today's accounting students, it is either because of too many students or too few jobs. Well, it looks like too few jobs is not going to be the problem. To the contrary, it looks more like there will be a labour shortfall in the medium term. So, the only other explanation is too many accounting students. I don't buy your argument on this either, as I have explained, but if you have any hard data to support it, by all means provide it.

There's an oversupply of accounting students looking for the same jobs. This is what I said in my last post. Your entire post doesn't do anything to refute this key point. Your assumption that all accounting students eventually become established CAs is ridiculous.

Of course this is a ridiculous conclusion for you to infer. To be an established CA (in Ontario, not sure about other provinces), an accounting student needs to:

1. pass accounting/biz course with sufficiently high grades
2. get a job at a firm designated to train CA students
3. pass the CKE
4. pass the SOA exam
5. pass the UFE
6. get their hours in with the abovementioned firm.

Unfortunately, not every student is going to make it. There are good students who stumble over step #2, although that problem is being addressed in Ontario. Yesterday, many students found out they had stumbled over step #3, and if you get past that, steps #4 and #5 can be hard to get by for academically weak students or those who, for whatever reason, struggle with doing cases/business simulations in an exam setting.

The good news is, an accounting student who decides they still want to be an accountant has alternatives - CGA, CMA, CPA. Or perhaps their interests will shift a bit and they can go into a related career - say do a CFA or CIA. What they learn in their accounting program can be applied to other finance careers.

I'm sure you mean well, but be careful not to scare away prospective accounting students with grim predictions of widespread unemployment or job dissatisfaction.

[tomotomo]

Eeeek, for anybody considering accounting, try it out, and see if you like it. Obviously though, accounting is not for everyone. For some it's dull, repetitive and rather boring. To others it's interesting, they love the details, and how the whole accounting system works. I knew accounting wasn't for me when I found out my friend, 90's in accounting, takes pride in himself that he can remember everything in the accounting textbook. Disgusting....lol .For me personally, accounting is just alot of boring details and I can't stand looking at it. Tell me to post another blah blah journal to ledger and I will puke. My advice, go find something passionate to do so that work feels like play, or at least something you don't mind doing.

[adehbone]

Are you still in high school? Accounting is ledgers/journals? What......

Memorizing a book all day? Your way off the mark...

CAs in 30s spend most of their time on the golf course, or in the bar buying clinets drinks my friend.

[Error916]

The institute must be doing a great job marketing to high school students and a huge number of students have the common misconception that accounting is easy because they got 90's in HS.

Sad to say, I was one of those students. Now being in second year and getting a taste of case analysis and moving away from the typical DR/CR we do in High School, I am thinking of changing my major. The area of study is well...really qualitative, answers can be subjective given a sufficient explaination.

As for the OP's question, it is a matter of personal taste. Go towards what you are interested in.

[tomotomo]

Haha yeah i'm still in highshool. I think about 8 out of 30 people in our class want to be an accountant, while several others are still considering the possibility, and a couple definitely don't want to an accountant. I, for one, don't mind the marketing, because I know it's just not for me.

[faken]

high schools a joke! I put in 30% of my effort and manage to still pull off A's. Now in secondary school.. 100% gets me only B+'s :(.

[adehbone]

My accounting prof?

So which way should we use to examine these statements?
Method 1, Method 2, or 3?

Smart student: "It matters based on if we are reporting internally/externally and what is most important to our stakeholders."

Right, you would make a good accountant.

[alysomji]

Not really - all accountants had to have been accounting students before they became accountants. If you are forecasting widespread unemployment for today's accounting students, it is either because of too many students or too few jobs. Well, it looks like too few jobs is not going to be the problem.

So, then you must be saying that there aren't enough qualified students - which would directly contradict what you've said in the past. After all, if you're saying that students graduating have more than enough opportunities to get jobs, the problem must then be with the students.

You're making a joke out of yourself here, harlequin.

All I basically said that out of a graduating class of accounting students, far less than half will actually finish the CA process.

There are too many students. Here is my hard fact from the ICAO for you: over 90% of students who start CA examinations in Ontario eventually end up finishing them and becoming full-fledged CAs. This is a well known fact amongst those who work in CA firms.

In other words, accounting students really and truly only face one significant hurdle in becoming CAs: getting a job at a CA firm.

Note: I'm not saying you don't have to study hard for your CA exams. Quite the contrary. CA students that are working are smart enough to eventually pass them, though.

[alysomji]

CAs in 30s spend most of their time on the golf course, or in the bar buying clinets drinks my friend.

That's not true at all. Most CAs in their 30s are in senior management positions requiring them to work 40-60 hours per week. Part of that time is spent on client relations - but certainly not most of it. Depending on the position, in fact, very little of it may be spent on client relations.

[harlequin]

So, then you must be saying that there aren't enough qualified students - which would directly contradict what you've said in the past. After all, if you're saying that students graduating have more than enough opportunities to get jobs, the problem must then be with the students.

You're making a joke out of yourself here, harlequin.

All I basically said that out of a graduating class of accounting students, far less than half will actually finish the CA process.

There are too many students. Here is my hard fact from the ICAO for you: over 90% of students who start CA examinations in Ontario eventually end up finishing them and becoming full-fledged CAs. This is a well known fact amongst those who work in CA firms.

In other words, accounting students really and truly only face one significant hurdle in becoming CAs: getting a job at a CA firm.

Note: I'm not saying you don't have to study hard for your CA exams. Quite the contrary. CA students that are working are smart enough to eventually pass them, though.

Alysomji, once again please let's keep this discussion polite and civil and not resort to personal slurs.

To refresh your memory, in our earlier discussion I mentioned that according to the ICAO and CICA, there are presently more qualified accounting students than there are CA student training positions to train them. As you correctly stated, this creates a bottleneck. As I said before, this issue is being address, with the introduction of non-assurance CAs. Granted, this will take time to resolve, but it does help alleviate the bottleneck.

This thread is about accounting students becoming professional accountants, or more generally, career choices for students interested in the financial sector. This is what you have said about the matter:

There seem to be too many students heading into accounting right now - and it wouldn't surprise me if there's a lot of unemployed accounting students in a few years, or accounting students working in jobs they wish they weren't in.

Yet, the fact remains that many of them either get jobs they don't want or are stuck being unemployed.

Right now, it seems like there will be (if there isn't already) an oversupply of students wanting accounting jobs.

From where I stand, you are not basically saying that "out of a graduating class of accounting students, far less than half will actually finish the CA process." Instead, you are discouraging students from going into a career in accounting altogether. I think it is wrong to do this and I have stated my reasons why.

Since the majority of professional accountants in Canada are not CAs, what would be more useful to know is what proportion of graduating accounting students become licensed professional accountant. I am sure is it somewhat less than 100%, but that is true in any other profession as well.

[BananaHunter]

Accounting is not all numbers like in stereotypes. In higher level accounting cases, you write more words than you do numbers. Bookkeeping is the basic stuff. Boring? Probably, but likely less boring than you imagined. How boring your job is ultimately depends on where you work and in what position.

One of my prof asked out loud how many students are pursuing the CA last week. Almost the entire class raised their hand.

The hurdle of being hired by a CA firm is very real. But don't worry, CA isn't the only way for accounting students to go. The CA just appears more attractive. You can aim for it but just have a back up plan and prepare for the fact that you might not get hired by a firm.

[harlequin]

Here is my hard fact from the ICAO for you: over 90% of students who start CA examinations in Ontario eventually end up finishing them and becoming full-fledged CAs. This is a well known fact amongst those who work in CA firms.

Alysomji, this is not quite as well-known as you may think, but is nonetheless interesting. I have never heard of the ICAO quote an overall flowthrough rate for all 3 exams. The latest ICAO UFE analysis of student performance (for the 2006 UFE) states that the flowthrough rate for 2003 to 2006 was 94% (i.e. out of all the students who first wrote the UFE in 2003, 94% eventually passed it within the 4 tries you are permitted in Ontario). Working backwards from this, if the overall flowthrough rate is over 90% (let's say 90% for the sake of argument), this means that the flowthrough rate for the CKE and SOA combined is 95.75%. The overall pass rates for each CKE is 70 to 80%, and about 75% for each SOA. Given this, a flowthrough rate of 95.75% seems quite high. It would mean that many of the weaker candidates would have made several tries on the CKE and SOA before even getting a shot at the UFE. Interesting if true - perhaps you could provide a reference for this 'over 90%' overall flowthrough rate? Is in on the ICAO website somewhere, or in Checkmark magazine?

[alysomji]

From where I stand, you are not basically saying that "out of a graduating class of accounting students, far less than half will actually finish the CA process."

Well, it's unfortunate you can't comprehend my posts.

Instead, you are discouraging students from going into a career in accounting altogether.

I don't think anyone in this thread believes that (except you - which is not at all surprising given your argumentative nature toward me, both currently and in the past).

What I've done is offered students my opinion on the number of students desiring to become CAs (not simply accountants but CAs) versus those who will actually obtain the CA designation and all that comes with it.

I'm a CA and I've answered the questions of many students here interested in becoming CAs. There's nothing to show I don't advocate students who truly desire to be CAs to become CAs.

I can't speak for CMAs or CGAs or the job prospects for those who wish to pursue those designations. What I can say is that the accounting designation of choice for any accounting student is the CA. It's only when a student learns he/she will not become a CA or will find it difficult to become one that the student considers the CMA and CGA designations.

So, yes, I'm only speaking about the CA and not the CMA or CGA - but I think most accounting students here are more interested in the CA than either the CMA or CGA.

Alysomji, once again please let's keep this discussion polite and civil and not resort to personal slurs.

I imagine that you're the only one who thinks what I said is a personal slur. I criticized you - and am well within my rights to do so. Why don't you contact a moderator here so that he/she can explain to you what a personal slur actually is - and the difference between it and criticism.

The latest ICAO UFE analysis of student performance (for the 2006 UFE) states that the flowthrough rate for 2003 to 2006 was 94% (i.e. out of all the students who first wrote the UFE in 2003, 94% eventually passed it within the 4 tries you are permitted in Ontario). Working backwards from this, if the overall flowthrough rate is over 90% (let's say 90% for the sake of argument), this means that the flowthrough rate for the CKE and SOA combined is 95.75%. The overall pass rates for each CKE is 70 to 80%, and about 75% for each SOA. Given this, a flowthrough rate of 95.75% seems quite high.

The average pass rate per an attempt (not the overall pass rate) for the CKE is about 75-80% - same goes for the SOA. I believe both the CKE and SOA allow up to 3 attempts each.

Chance of passing CKE eventually: 1 - 0.25^3 = 98%
Chance of passing SOA eventually: Same as CKE - 98%

Combined pass rate for CKE and SOA: 98%^2 = 96%

95.75% is ~ 96%

Is in on the ICAO website somewhere, or in Checkmark magazine?

I don't have time to look for it but you can probably find it on their website. The information may only be available to users who can login as CAs, however. If you're in a CA firm, your HR personnel can probably locate the relevant information for you.

--

Tell us harlequin, what is your status in the accounting profession? Are you a CA? Do you have a designation of any kind? Please inform us if you have any qualifications related to your participation in conversations on the accounting profession.

[harlequin]

What I can say is that the accounting designation of choice for any accounting student is the CA.

Not a surprising remark to hear, coming from a CA. But there are academic programs which focus more on CGA and CMA designations - for example, there are grad biz programs where you can work towards an MBA and CMA at the same time.

I imagine that you're the only one who thinks what I said is a personal slur. I criticized you - and am well within my rights to do so.

Quite a lot of people would be offended if you said to them "You're making a joke out of yourself". You certainly have the right to say it, but in doing so you damage your own reputation and come across as a bit mean.

The average pass rate per an attempt (not the overall pass rate) for the CKE is about 75-80% - same goes for the SOA. I believe both the CKE and SOA allow up to 3 attempts each.

Yes, I already made it clear that the pass rates were for each test. I still find the 90% figure hard to believe, because it assumes the weaker students are all diligent enough to spend several years retaking the test over and over again until they pass. I admire the courage of students who can do this, but surely some of them throw in the towel at some point. Are you absolutely sure this figure is on the ICAO website?

Tell us harlequin, what is your status in the accounting profession? Are you a CA? Do you have a designation of any kind? Please inform us if you have any qualifications related to your participation in conversations on the accounting profession.

First of all, let me point out a post you made recently:

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6241270&postcount=123

(I am referring to the 2nd section from the bottom)

So, I think you understand the concept of an anonymous board, where everyone is more comfortable to speak their mind freely. But more importantly to me, I don't want or need to use professional/academic qualifications to add weight to what I say. I prefer to let what I say stand on it own merits. The others on the board can read them, check the references, weigh the soundness of the logic and come to their own conclusions about what we write in our posts.

[alysomji]

harlequin,

You just can't bare not to have the last word - so you just peddle out what you've already said repeatedly - even though it's already been responded to more than adequately. You didn't bring up one issue in your response to me that I haven't already addressed.

I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of wasting more of my time. I highly doubt you're even an accountant - which makes your opinions on the accounting profession hold questionable value. There's no reason you can't tell us what your career is without giving away your identity.

Knowing you can't bare not to have the last word on an issue, I fully expect you to make another post accusing me of X, Y and Z - all while fully ignoring my responses to you in this thread (despite quoting me). Your post history speaks volumes with regard to this trait of yours.

Good night.

[george benjamin]

The average pass rate per an attempt (not the overall pass rate) for the CKE is about 75-80% - same goes for the SOA. I believe both the CKE and SOA allow up to 3 attempts each.

Chance of passing CKE eventually: 1 - 0.25^3 = 98%
Chance of passing SOA eventually: Same as CKE - 98%

Combined pass rate for CKE and SOA: 98%^2 = 96%

95.75% is ~ 96%



This is not a correct estimate what are the chances of becoming a CA once you are hired by a CA firm.

You are assuming that everyone who fails will keep on retaking the exam.

[rey1867]

there's really no point in arguing over your chances of becoming a ca.

if you work hard towards it, you'll become a CA. Screw those numbers :D

[alysomji]

This is not a correct estimate what are the chances of becoming a CA once you are hired by a CA firm.

No one said it was. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are assuming that everyone who fails will keep on retaking the exam.

The probabilities hold for anyone who chooses to continue the process.

After committing the time one already has by the time he/she has started doing exams, combined with the chance of successive failure being so low, most people do take the exams again and again until they pass (and 9 out of 10 times they finish the process).

Generally, practically everyone who starts at a CA firm and stays long enough to write exams eventually becomes a CA - and that's exactly how the CICA and the ICAO wants it to be.

[harlequin]

harlequin,

You just can't bare not to have the last word - so you just peddle out what you've already said repeatedly - even though it's already been responded to more than adequately. You didn't bring up one issue in your response to me that I haven't already addressed.

I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of wasting more of my time. I highly doubt you're even an accountant - which makes your opinions on the accounting profession hold questionable value. There's no reason you can't tell us what your career is without giving away your identity.

Knowing you can't bare not to have the last word on an issue, I fully expect you to make another post accusing me of X, Y and Z - all while fully ignoring my responses to you in this thread (despite quoting me). Your post history speaks volumes with regard to this trait of yours.

Good night.

Yeah, it sure is a great feeling to get the last word in, eh? Couple of points:

1. A person can respect you and still disagree with your opinions. There is no need to be so defensive.

2. Don't take yourself so seriously. You will live longer and be happier.

Good night :cheesygri

[R8247]

Why does every accounting thread end with harlequin and alysomji getting into an argument :confused: lol

I'm just joking ...

I appreciate your help alysomji :D

[Scrum]

I highly doubt you're even an accountant - which makes your opinions on the accounting profession hold questionable value. There's no reason you can't tell us what your career is without giving away your identity.

That's an odd thing to say, especially since Harlequin seems to know a lot about the accounting profession. My guess is he is a CA, because he was using ICAO data about UFE performance, and you can only access this if you are a member of the ICAO.

And this leads into my next point. You have to be careful what you say about yourself on the Internet. You can leave clues about yourself that could allow other people to figure out who you are. For example, in the other message that Harlequin referred to, you said

"I do mind, actually - mainly due to the nature of this board. Suffice it to say that I became a CA more than a few years ago at one of the big firms - and am now in a senior management role in industry. I didn't stop with my CA. I'm also a CPA (Illinois) and CIA - and am planning on soon obtaining my MBA from a local university (either UofT or York)."

So, we know that:

- you are a CA and became one a few years ago
- you went to industry and are now in sr. mgmt.
- you have a CPA and CIA
- you are thinking of doing an MBA
- you live in the Toronto area because York and UT are local schools for you

See what I mean? How many people fit this profile? There are other accountants who read this and maybe could guess who you are. So sure you mind telling us more about yourself. Don't be a hypocrite and demand that other people reveal their personal details. With all the problems that identity theft is causing these days, you can't be too careful.