New Year's Fireworks From World's Tallest Building

[Aznsilvrboy]

I know it's a bit late but here's a video I received in my e-mail. I thought it was a nice watch, and good enough to share. So here it is:

http://scenery-taipei101.up.seesaa.net/video/FlvPlayer.swf?file=Taipei101_080101.flv

;)

[Aznsilvrboy]

19 views and no comments?

[bokep]

the ****** music ruined it

by the way that isn't the tallest building in the world

[Aznsilvrboy]

the ****** music ruined it

by the way that isn't the tallest building in the world

It is. Taipei 101 retains the official title until the Burj Dubai is completed.

[jedijome]

It is. Taipei 101 retains the official title until the Burj Dubai is completed.

+1 i just posted the same thing.

[elty]

I found this one more creative, but the Taipei one looks better.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=T2wT0XCMV08&feature=related

[bokep]

It is. Taipei 101 retains the official title until the Burj Dubai is completed.

No such thing as "official title". Burj Dubai right now is already ~90m taller, who gives a crap if it's under construction.

Either way not to stray from the thread: the music sucks and ruined the whole show. The fireworks was good though.

[Aznsilvrboy]

No such thing as "official title". Burj Dubai right now is already ~90m taller, who gives a crap if it's under construction.

Either way not to stray from the thread: the music sucks and ruined the whole show. The fireworks was good though.

Yes there is. International architectural standards define a "building" as a structure that can be occupied. A building under construction, such as the Burj Dubai, cannot be occupied, and therefore is not considered as a building just yet.

On a side note, i thought the music fit the occasion and was quite good.

[somemale]

the hong kong display is the best

[Fox2k]

what the hell - was that aBBa?

[boyoflondon]

Yes there is. International architectural standards define a "building" as a structure that can be occupied. A building under construction, such as the Burj Dubai, cannot be occupied, and therefore is not considered as a building just yet.

On a side note, i thought the music fit the occasion and was quite good.


At the end of the day, Burj Dubai is still taller, so who gives a rats ass what some organization classifies it as :p

btw ... Isn't the Sears tower taller than Taipei 101? 527m vs 509m (measured at the top of the spire/antenna)?!?

[rosebud]

cn tower ftw!

[M.D.]

Why is there a big cross there? thought they didnt have churches in China.

[rosebud]

Why is there a big cross there? thought they didnt have churches in China.

Jesus Christ has no limits.

[Aznsilvrboy]

Why is there a big cross there? thought they didnt have churches in China.

That's because Taiwan is not a part of China ;)
Also there are state controlled churches in China (PRC).

[Aznsilvrboy]

At the end of the day, Burj Dubai is still taller, so who gives a rats ass what some organization classifies it as :p

btw ... Isn't the Sears tower taller than Taipei 101? 527m vs 509m (measured at the top of the spire/antenna)?!?

From Wikipedia:

"Taipei 101 in Taiwan claimed the record in three of the four categories in 2004 to become generally recognized as the tallest building in the world. Taipei 101 surpassed the Petronas Twin Towers in spire height and the Sears Tower in roof height; it also claimed the record for highest occupied floor. The Sears Tower retained one record: its antenna exceeded the Taipei 101's spire in height."

[rosebud]

the video is awesome... the soundtrack can be improved.

long live Taiwan.

[Viz79]

At the end of the day, Burj Dubai is still taller, so who gives a rats ass what some organization classifies it as :p

btw ... Isn't the Sears tower taller than Taipei 101? 527m vs 509m (measured at the top of the spire/antenna)?!?

Yes, but only because of the antenna height.

~V79~

[M@rk]

the ****** music ruined it

by the way that isn't the tallest building in the world

No such thing as "official title". Burj Dubai right now is already ~90m taller, who gives a crap if it's under construction.

Either way not to stray from the thread: the music sucks and ruined the whole show. The fireworks was good though.

the video is awesome... the soundtrack can be improved.

long live Taiwan.

What the heck are you guys talking about :mad: ? That was ABBA!

[ElChico]

btw ... Isn't the Sears tower taller than Taipei 101? 527m vs 509m (measured at the top of the spire/antenna)?!?

The CN Tower is taller then both. It is the tallest in the world!

[Viz79]

The CN Tower is taller then both. It is the tallest in the world!

The CN Tower is the tallest (uninhabited) *structure* in the world (or something like that). The Sears Tower and Taipei 101 are inhabited *buildings*. In the eyes of the record books, they're two different categories. :)

~V79~

[bokep]

Yes there is. International architectural standards define a "building" as a structure that can be occupied. A building under construction, such as the Burj Dubai, cannot be occupied, and therefore is not considered as a building just yet.

On a side note, i thought the music fit the occasion and was quite good.

Yawn. This supposed "International architectural standard" is as official as anyone's opinion. The workers in Burj Dubai can sleep and eat lunch on the highest floor if they really want to, so that means it can be occupied as far as I'm concerned.

The CN Tower is the tallest (uninhabited) *structure* in the world (or something like that). The Sears Tower and Taipei 101 are inhabited *buildings*. In the eyes of the record books, they're two different categories. :)

~V79~

CN Tower held the record as the "tallest free-standing structure" from the 70s up until a few months ago when Burj Dubai topped it. It was quite the run.

[boyoflondon]

The CN Tower is taller then both. It is the tallest in the world!


We are talking about buildings, not towers ;)
And CN tower WAS the tallest ... dont you remember a few months ago when everyone started "crying" after it lost its title? :)

[ElChico]

The CN Tower is the tallest (uninhabited) *structure* in the world (or something like that). The Sears Tower and Taipei 101 are inhabited *buildings*. In the eyes of the record books, they're two different categories. :)

~V79~

The CN tower is inhabited. I don't know how many people a day go in it, but it must be similar to Sears and Taipei

We are talking about buildings, not towers ;)
And CN tower WAS the tallest ... dont you remember a few months ago when everyone started "crying" after it lost its title? :)

CN Tower is a Building. It was Built, it didn't grow on the spot. And besides, it's the Sears TOWER

[Viz79]

The CN tower is inhabited. I don't know how many people a day go in it, but it must be similar to Sears and Taipei

CN Tower is a Building. It was Built, it didn't grow on the spot. And besides, it's the Sears TOWER

Sears Tower is just a name. It's actually a skycraper with 418,064 m² floor area.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Sears_Tower_ss.jpg

The Taipei 101 is also a skycraper with 412,500 m² floor area.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/00/101.portrait.altonthompson.jpg

Don't have the numbers for the CN Tower, but the numbers are nowhere near those of the Sears Tower and Taipei 101.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3a/Toronto%27s_CN_Tower.jpg

~V79~

[spn]

I found this one more creative, but the Taipei one looks better.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=T2wT0XCMV08&feature=related
This is a better angle
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=qlxmNYXweQs

[lh0628]

That's because Taiwan is not a part of China ;)


According to whom?

[Aznsilvrboy]

According to whom?

Doesn't need to be according to anyone. China gave Taiwan to Japan in 1895, then Japan ceded the island in 1945 WITHOUT stating a recipient. Then ROC occupied it since 1949...have not formally annexed the island through constitutional amendments. That's all there is to it.

[Odysseus_Maximus]

the hong kong display is the best

+1

[b166er1337]

According to whom?

according to Taiwanese inhabitants, the only people who has the authority to determine its own future. So far, Taiwan is NOT a province of People's Republic of China.

[aimfox]

Wow fireworks is so beautiful... where was this?

[Aznsilvrboy]

Wow fireworks is so beautiful... where was this?

Xinyi district, Taipei, Taiwan.

[Madchester]

CTBUH 1, Ppl debating about "tallest building" definition 0.

[kiasu]

This is better...

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=utehxZC0K6c

[lh0628]

Doesn't need to be according to anyone. China gave Taiwan to Japan in 1895, then Japan ceded the island in 1945 WITHOUT stating a recipient. Then ROC occupied it since 1949...have not formally annexed the island through constitutional amendments. That's all there is to it.

Just to get your facts straight, China lost the 1st Sino-Japanese war, signed Treaty of Shimonoseki, which ceded sovereignty of Pescadores, Formosa, and eastern part of the Liao-Dong Peninsula.

Japan signed the Instrument of Surrender in 1945, it's only a cease fire agreement between warring countries.

You are referring to the Treaty of San Francisco, which served officially to end the WWII, and Japan's position as Imperial power, etc.

Due to the result of the Chinese Civil War splitting Mainland from Taiwan, and the split between US/UK and Soviet's support on the two parties, niether the PRC nor the ROC was invited.

And Japan was on the losing side of WWII, it was in no position to state recipeints of it's oversea colonies.

[Aznsilvrboy]

Just to get your facts straight, China lost the 1st Sino-Japanese war, signed Treaty of Shimonoseki, which ceded sovereignty of Pescadores, Formosa, and eastern part of the Liao-Dong Peninsula.

Japan signed the Instrument of Surrender in 1945, it's only a cease fire agreement between warring countries.

You are referring to the Treaty of San Francisco, which served officially to end the WWII, and Japan's position as Imperial power, etc.

Due to the result of the Chinese Civil War splitting Mainland from Taiwan, and the split between US/UK and Soviet's support on the two parties, niether the PRC nor the ROC was invited.

And Japan was on the losing side of WWII, it was in no position to state recipeints of it's oversea colonies.

Okay...sorry about the date mix up. However, neither ROC or PRC were needed to be invited at the signing of the treaty as Japan was merely giving up its colonies. Still doesn't change the fact that wasn't a recipient and therefore only the Taiwanese people can decide their future.

[Alvito]

Why is there a big cross there? thought they didnt have churches in China.

Jesus Christ has no limits.

http://flumesday.com/images/chinesejesus.jpg

[1yellowdog]

How does a nice thread about fireworks turn into a political/religious discussion?????? :confused:

[Essence89]

How does a nice thread about fireworks turn into a political/religious discussion?????? :confused:

cause ppl love arugments :P

anyways fireworks ftw!!

[ElChico]

Sears Tower is just a name. It's actually a skycraper with 418,064 m² floor area.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Sears_Tower_ss.jpg

The Taipei 101 is also a skycraper with 412,500 m² floor area.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/00/101.portrait.altonthompson.jpg

Don't have the numbers for the CN Tower, but the numbers are nowhere near those of the Sears Tower and Taipei 101.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3a/Toronto%27s_CN_Tower.jpg

~V79~

The Pentagon has 610,000 m² of floor area, that doesn't make it the tallest in the world.

[ronin893]

Still doesn't change the fact that wasn't a recipient and therefore only the Taiwanese people can decide their future.Still doesn't change the fact that the Taiwanese people never held a referendum to decide their future.

[lh0628]

Okay...sorry about the date mix up. However, neither ROC or PRC were needed to be invited at the signing of the treaty as Japan was merely giving up its colonies. Still doesn't change the fact that wasn't a recipient and therefore only the Taiwanese people can decide their future.

Are you then saying that the Kurile Islands should decide its own future as well? Since according to Article 2c of the Treaty of San Francisco, Japan "renounces all rights, title and claim to the Kurile Islands, and to that portion of Sakhalin and the islands adjacent to it over which Japan acquired sovereignty as a consequence of the Treaty of Portsmouth of 5 September 1905." without stating a recipient.

[mlc2000]

Good thing for Kyoto..they can have nice fireworks and we get to pay for it over here. :lol:

[mlc2000]

Is it just me? Or does these 2 things look similar?

Very creative architecture ! :lol: :D :lol: :D


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/00/101.portrait.altonthompson.jpg


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y188/itsfatboy/101portraitaltonthompson.jpg

[elty]

...therefore only the Taiwanese people can decide their future.

Most people prefer to remain as it is for now (ie. they don't even want a referendum that force them to choose Yes or No)

[Viz79]

The Pentagon has 610,000 m² of floor area, that doesn't make it the tallest in the world.

Obviously not as its only 24m tall. :confused:

~V79~

[ElChico]

Obviously not as its only 24m tall. :confused:

~V79~

So you admit that Floor area has nothing to do with building height? :D

Go CN Tower!

[Aznsilvrboy]

Are you then saying that the Kurile Islands should decide its own future as well? Since according to Article 2c of the Treaty of San Francisco, Japan "renounces all rights, title and claim to the Kurile Islands, and to that portion of Sakhalin and the islands adjacent to it over which Japan acquired sovereignty as a consequence of the Treaty of Portsmouth of 5 September 1905." without stating a recipient.

Yes, it is in accordance with the principle of self-determination.

[Aznsilvrboy]

Still doesn't change the fact that the Taiwanese people never held a referendum to decide their future.

Ok...and? There's only two ways that could go. Either declare formal independence or join PRC. Current status: Neither, and acting as de facto country under ROC administration.

[mlc2000]

Yes, it is in accordance with the principle of self-determination.

can u two take it to another room?

[Aznsilvrboy]

can u two take it to another room?

No, but you can leave this one.

[lh0628]

Yes, it is in accordance with the principle of self-determination.

What about territorial integrity then?

And what about the 1995 Quebec referendum? If there were more Yes votes, would the rest of Canada allow Quebec to be separated and form its own independent state?

[Aznsilvrboy]

What about territorial integrity then?

And what about the 1995 Quebec referendum? If there were more Yes votes, would the rest of Canada allow Quebec to be separated and form its own independent state?

This is a non-issue. It's a PRC fabricated point. Currently, there is no territorial ownership associated island of Taiwan as no recipient was named upon decolonization after World War II. The whole integrity (territorial or otherwise) belongs to the Taiwanese people.

[lh0628]

This is a non-issue. It's a PRC fabricated point. Currently, there is no territorial ownership associated island of Taiwan as no recipient was named upon decolonization after World War II. The whole integrity (territorial or otherwise) belongs to the Taiwanese people.

What is a PRC fabricated point? Territorial integrity is a written clause (IV) in the Helsinki Accords signed by 35 countries in 1975, including U.S. and Canada.

[Aznsilvrboy]

What is a PRC fabricated point? Territorial integrity is a written clause (IV) in the Helsinki Accords signed by 35 countries in 1975, including U.S. and Canada.

I meant that PRC's "territorial integrity" does not concern Taiwan and vice versa.

[lh0628]

I meant that PRC's "territorial integrity" does not concern Taiwan and vice versa.

That's odd. China had sovereignty over Taiwan from 1662 - 1895, which then lost it to Japan. When Japan lost the WWII and given up sovereignty over Taiwan, I just find it strange that China wouldn't be the most legitimate state to reclaim Taiwan.

[Aznsilvrboy]

That's odd. China had sovereignty over Taiwan from 1662 - 1895, which then lost it to Japan. When Japan lost the WWII and given up sovereignty over Taiwan, I just find it strange that China wouldn't be the most legitimate state to reclaim Taiwan.

Why is that odd, you gave it, it's not yours anymore. Doesn't make sense that just because the new owner gave it up, old owner automatically assumes sovereignty again. Taiwan was set free upon Japan's renunciation of sovereignty over the island.

[lh0628]

Why is that odd, you gave it, it's not yours anymore. Doesn't make sense that just because the new owner gave it up, old owner automatically assumes sovereignty again. Taiwan was set free upon Japan's renunciation of sovereignty over the island.

Interesting view, though the chance of this happening is slim to none, and is decreasing each day as mainland China grows stronger.

[somemale]

what the hell is this thread about!?!?!

[ronin893]

Ok...and? There's only two ways that could go. Either declare formal independence or join PRC. Current status: Neither, and acting as de facto country under ROC administration.And you stated the third option yourself -- status quo. Think outside the box.

I'm just thowing in my comment to any lurkers who might mistakenly believe that the whole of Taiwan wants independence. Independence is not a sure thing. Heck, even an election to choose the pro-indepedence party is hard enough, let alone an actual referendum. It's going to be a tight race in the parliamentary election next Sunday.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/080106/world/taiwan_vote_rallies_1

[ronin893]

Is it just me? Or does these 2 things look similar?

Lame joke.

The building's shape is suppose to be eight ingots of gold (or silver) stacked upright. "Eight" in the Chinese language sounds similar to "prosperity".

Here is a drawing of what an ingot of precious metal looks like in Old China.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tael

[Xtahse]

proud of taipei 101
i <3 taiwan

[Aznsilvrboy]

And you stated the third option yourself -- status quo. Think outside the box.

I'm just thowing in my comment to any lurkers who might mistakenly believe that the whole of Taiwan wants independence. Independence is not a sure thing. Heck, even an election to choose the pro-indepedence party is hard enough, let alone an actual referendum. It's going to be a tight race in the parliamentary election next Sunday.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/080106/world/taiwan_vote_rallies_1

The parliamentary elections are actually tomorrow night (our time), January 12th (Taiwan local time).

[ronin893]

The parliamentary elections are actually tomorrow night (our time), January 12th (Taiwan local time).FWIW, the "status quo" camp won a landslide in the elections. :)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7184448.stm

Taiwanese independence is going to be on the back burner for the next four years.

[Aznsilvrboy]

FWIW, the "status quo" camp won a landslide in the elections. :)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7184448.stm

Taiwanese independence is going to be on the back burner for the next four years.

Yes, seems so.

[Genia11]

I think a referendum would be a waste of time if China is not willing to commit to a dialogue about it. How can the people in Taiwan truly "speak" from their heart when China is constantly threatening to invade if Taiwan choses to declare independence?

[vinniereno]

I think what everyone is saying regarding the whole ROC/PRC issue is totally misinforming.
You guys either sound like 2nd generation immigrants or people from China, neither of whom has current historical and up to date information about the geopolitical or historical status in Taiwan right now.

What everyone fails to understand is, Taiwan's issue is not to be independent or not. Taiwan is an independant country, no two words about it. It's formal name is the Republic of China and was established in 1912. Losing the civil war, the government moved to one of it's territories, Taiwan.
Think about it this way, Canada (hypothetically) fights a civil war, one side gains an upperhand and the original government retreats to Nova Scotia or BC or something. The new government is called *** of Canada. What's to say the original government doesn't exist anymore. It still controls an army, a functional government, foreign relations and heck even sat as a permanent member on the security council for close to 25 years. Basically what you have is a divided country, neither side more or less sovereign than the other.
Now what mainland Chinese people need to understand is that is the current reality right now. Your country isn't more "sovereign" because it has more people or bigger trade dollars. In fact the communists even agree that, yes this is a divided country, neither of whom is more "legitimate" than the other. Hence President Hu's point, One China Two Delegates [PRC, ROC] 一中兩代. What the communists are afraid of however, is Taiwanese independance, which Ill go into now...

Now the part everyone is confused about is, what is Taiwanese independance?
Taiwanese independance has nothing at all with becoming a sovereign country (which it already is as mentioned above). Taiwanese independance has all with being a country free of Chinese geopolitical and historical (to a certain extent) influences. The term independance refers not to independance from the PRC of which Taiwan was never a part of but rather a gradual lessening of ties with mainland China and a gradual fostering of it's own country identity. The PRC fears this because this could gradually mean that reunification in the near and far future would prove to be more and more impossible as two countries bound by the same culture and proximity might still have a chance (think singapore and malaysia) but simply asking two distinct nations to unify together is nothing short of war.

Now for my point of view.
Forget all the historical wording in old and forgotten historical documents. Does any of really matter? It's naive to think that because some historical document said this or that, both parties involved are going to suddenly stop bickering, fighting and suddenly go for a cup of tea together. Face reality. Reality is Taiwan's 23 million people aren't going to give up democracy for a couple of documents in which their respective government wasn't even party to. That's like asking you Canadians to stop voting and stop electing MP's just because the State Department in the US ruled that you shouldn't any more. In 1944. It's ridiculous.
What people around the world need to face is this, Taiwan's 23 million people hold the sovereignty in the government that rules Taiwan and it's surrounding islands. They love democracy and any ANY future course of action in which the government of Taiwan takes will be truly reflective of that as a full fledged democracy. Whether it chooses to go independant or maybe even fall closer into China's ring of orbit, it's the Taiwanese people's own decision. What Canadians and any other citizens of democracies countries around the world need to do is respect the wishes and decisions of Taiwan's own 23 million people like how they would want other countries to respect Canada's own democratic choices. You know, a French president once said in Quebec, "Vive la Quebec". It caused an uproar. Democratic Canada doesnt like being told what to do. You know what, neither does Taiwan.

------------


On a totally different note, I heard there was around a half million people crowded in the streets watching that show. At least they all had a good view.

[ynchu]

Just for the record, I am a ROC & Canadian citizen. Now before I say anything else stupid...

It was a good firework show! Much better than Vancouver's.

[ronin893]

I think a referendum would be a waste of time if China is not willing to commit to a dialogue about it. How can the people in Taiwan truly "speak" from their heart when China is constantly threatening to invade if Taiwan choses to declare independence?
First of all, mainland China has not been "constantly" threatening Taiwan. It's been over 4 years since a Chinese official made a comment about military action -- that's before the 2004 election. Such comments usually backfire and cause more votes to go to the pro-independence camp. China realizes this and has been tight-lipped during this year's election. Western news outlets does a p155 poor job of being objective with Asian news.

Besides, China is merely saying that all options, including any military one, are still on the table. The sabre-rattling from the Chinese mainland is similar to the US government's public comments on North Korea and Iran. Why don't you see the Western media harping on that?

Secondly, it's not a waste of time. It matters to a country like Canada. Why should a country like Canada take any position before a referendum and its results are known?

[ronin893]

Now the part everyone is confused about is, what is Taiwanese independance?
Taiwanese independance has nothing at all with becoming a sovereign country (which it already is as mentioned above). Taiwanese independance has all with being a country free of Chinese geopolitical and historical (to a certain extent) influences. The term independance refers not to independance from the PRC of which Taiwan was never a part of but rather a gradual lessening of ties with mainland China and a gradual fostering of it's own country identity.
The desinicization of Taiwan is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard of.

The PRC fears this because this could gradually mean that reunification in the near and far future would prove to be more and more impossible as two countries bound by the same culture and proximity might still have a chance (think singapore and malaysia) but simply asking two distinct nations to unify together is nothing short of war.Well, you can have your theory. I think it makes more sense to believe that the PRC fears (a successful) Taiwanese independence because it would embolden other provinces to do the same. The PRC saw what happened to the USSR and will do everything to prevent the same thing happening.

What people around the world need to face is this, Taiwan's 23 million people hold the sovereignty in the government that rules Taiwan and it's surrounding islands. They love democracy and any ANY future course of action in which the government of Taiwan takes will be truly reflective of that as a full fledged democracy. Whether it chooses to go independant or maybe even fall closer into China's ring of orbit, it's the Taiwanese people's own decision. What Canadians and any other citizens of democracies countries around the world need to do is respect the wishes and decisions of Taiwan's own 23 million people like how they would want other countries to respect Canada's own democratic choices. You know, a French president once said in Quebec, "Vive la Quebec". It caused an uproar. Democratic Canada doesnt like being told what to do. You know what, neither does Taiwan.Write a letter to your local newspaper and tell their reporters to stop writing stories with a bias towards independence. I agree the the rest of the world should just butt out. And do the same for the Middle East. (Yeah, one can only dream.)

[vinniereno]

First of all, mainland China has not been "constantly" threatening Taiwan. It's been over 4 years since a Chinese official made a comment about military action -- that's before the 2004 election.
You don't need to be making a comment to be threatening. I guess you wouldn't find it threatening if someone pointed a gun at your head but did not make a comment about it? Over 700 missiles directly aimed at Taiwan and you say China has not been "constantly" threatening ^^".


Besides, China is merely saying that all options, including any military one, are still on the table. The sabre-rattling from the Chinese mainland is similar to the US government's public comments on North Korea and Iran. Why don't you see the Western media harping on that?

I do, all the time, I guess you don't read much news eh.


Secondly, it's not a waste of time. It matters to a country like Canada. Why should a country like Canada take any position before a referendum and its results are known?
What does this comment have to do with anything. Canada and its Quebec referendum have nothing to do with the situation in Taiwan. The Canada/Quebec issue is an internal dispute. The Taiwan situation is a dispute between two sovereign governments. A better comparison would be if Canada was taking interest in a referendum held in Poland.

The desinicization of Taiwan is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard of.
I could care less about what you have or have not heard.

Well, you can have your theory. I think it makes more sense to believe that the PRC fears (a successful) Taiwanese independence because it would embolden other provinces to do the same. The PRC saw what happened to the USSR and will do everything to prevent the same thing happening.
Agree, also a good theory. Guess we will never know who's right.

I agree the the rest of the world should just butt out. And do the same for the Middle East. (Yeah, one can only dream.)
I was actually referring to the only country that has an unhealthy obsession with Taiwan, China.

---

I was going to say that this thread will probably get locked for politicizing things, but then again, the Politcal/Religious forums are closing.. or so I hear?

[ynchu]

Just a quick note. In 1995, PRC fired two missles over Taiwan's sky, I do not what that can be if it is not a threat. I felt threatened at that particular night standing on a street at Taipei looking up the sky wondering if this is the last hours of peaceful life.

PRC also annually have their militery exercises couple hundred kilometers off Taiwan's coast lines, with massive demonstrations of air strike, landing, navy activites, etc. They also have political talks that often crash the stock markets over there.

It's easy for you guys to conclude anything, but I just want to say - I am glad to live here.

First of all, mainland China has not been "constantly" threatening Taiwan. It's been over 4 years since a Chinese official made a comment about military action -- that's before the 2004 election. Such comments usually backfire and cause more votes to go to the pro-independence camp. China realizes this and has been tight-lipped during this year's election. Western news outlets does a p155 poor job of being objective with Asian news.

[Aznsilvrboy]

Well, you can have your theory. I think it makes more sense to believe that the PRC fears (a successful) Taiwanese independence because it would embolden other provinces to do the same. The PRC saw what happened to the USSR and will do everything to prevent the same thing happening.


What "other" provinces? Taiwan province was never and isn't a province of the PRC. Taiwan independence from ROC does not set "precedence" for the provinces/territories of the PRC to do the same. It's like saying the independence of Kosovo, Serbia would embolden Quebec, Canada to do the same.

[b166er1337]

this is so simple.

if Ronin 893 needs a visa & a passport to visit Taiwan, then clearly it doesn't belong to the same country where he is from (assuming he is from People's Republic of China).

and yes, ROC is the official name of Taiwan. They mean the same thing. How many people say "United Kingdom of Great Britiain & Northern Ireland", instead of Britain, or Great Britain...

[Aznsilvrboy]

this is so simple.

if Ronin 893 needs a visa & a passport to visit Taiwan, then clearly it doesn't belong to the same country where he is from (assuming he is from People's Republic of China).

and yes, ROC is the official name of Taiwan. They mean the same thing. How many people say "United Kingdom of Great Britiain & Northern Ireland", instead of Britain, or Great Britain...

He probably doesn't need a visa and/or a passport to visit Taiwan, assuming he has a Canadian passport which grants him 30 days visa free entry.

[vinniereno]

He probably doesn't need a visa and/or a passport to visit Taiwan, assuming he has a Canadian passport which grants him 30 days visa free entry.

Regardless, don't you hate it when PRC people try to butt their way into every Taiwan discussion when it has CLEARLY nothing to do with them?
They always think that they know everything when they can relate to nothing such as democracy, referendum, self determination, etc...

[Aznsilvrboy]

Regardless, don't you hate it when PRC people try to butt their way into every Taiwan discussion when it has CLEARLY nothing to do with them?
They always think that they know everything when they can relate to nothing such as democracy, referendum, self determination, etc...

I suppose I do "hate" it when that happens, but they think it has something to do with them...so...:|

[b166er1337]

I suppose I do "hate" it when that happens, but they think it has something to do with them...so...:|

they got nothing better to do (and they are everywhere !!!) ...since PRC citizens can't vote on their leaders, have limited freedom of expression, and lack the basic understanding of self-determination, democracy, and freedom...

[ronin893]

Regardless, don't you hate it when PRC people try to butt their way into every Taiwan discussion when it has CLEARLY nothing to do with them?
They always think that they know everything when they can relate to nothing such as democracy, referendum, self determination, etc...Yes, I hate it when people say things that they know nothing about. For example, I am not from PRC. I was not born there. I have never held citizenship of PRC. I never worked there. I never lived there. Keep assuming.

[ronin893]

What does this comment have to do with anything. Canada and its Quebec referendum have nothing to do with the situation in Taiwan. The Canada/Quebec issue is an internal dispute. The Taiwan situation is a dispute between two sovereign governments. A better comparison would be if Canada was taking interest in a referendum held in Poland.I wasn't talking about Quebec. Read carefully if you want to have a serious discussion. I assume you guys want Canadians to support Taiwanese independence. Well, that can't happen until Taiwan has a referendum with a clear "yes" side winning, don't you agree?

[ronin893]

Just a quick note. In 1995, PRC fired two missles over Taiwan's sky, I do not what that can be if it is not a threat. I felt threatened at that particular night standing on a street at Taipei looking up the sky wondering if this is the last hours of peaceful life.That was a message directed at the first ever election in 1996. It was meant to scare the voters to vote for a China-friendly regime. Don't think too much into it. The DPP won the next two elections and the PRC did nothing. It's all bark and no bite.

[ronin893]

What "other" provinces? Taiwan province was never and isn't a province of the PRC. Taiwan independence from ROC does not set "precedence" for the provinces/territories of the PRC to do the same. It's like saying the independence of Kosovo, Serbia would embolden Quebec, Canada to do the same.Why do you guys keep coming back to Quebec? I'm talking about the western and perhaps northern provinces of China.

[elty]

Asia has all the nice firework show... too much money to waste

[ronin893]

and yes, ROC is the official name of Taiwan. They mean the same thing. How many people say "United Kingdom of Great Britiain & Northern Ireland", instead of Britain, or Great Britain...UK is not the same as GB. GB is made up of England, Scotland, and Wales. GB + Northern Ireland = UK. UK has a seat at the UN.

Compare that to China.
PRC + ROC + HK + Macau = Greater China

PS: UK will never support Taiwanese independence. There's a small group of Scots who wants Scotland to separate from the UK.

[elty]

they got nothing better to do (and they are everywhere !!!) ...since PRC citizens can't vote on their leaders, have limited freedom of expression, and lack the basic understanding of self-determination, democracy, and freedom...

Have to agree. Just visit yorkbbs, and start a thread about something bad in China. You will be immediately flamed to death, and they will never answer the question "if you love China so much then why do you come to Canada?" :D :cheesygri

[Aznsilvrboy]

Why do you guys keep coming back to Quebec? I'm talking about the western and perhaps northern provinces of China.

It doesn't matter which province I used as an example. For all intents and purposes, Ontario/BC/PEI would have all been fitting examples. Perhaps I should be more clear: Taiwan's independence from ROC does not set precedence for ANY province/territory of PRC to do the same.

[ronin893]

It doesn't matter which province I used as an example. For all intents and purposes, Ontario/BC/PEI would have all been fitting examples. Perhaps I should be more clear: Taiwan's independence from ROC does not set precedence for ANY province/territory of PRC to do the same.Yes, it does. Just look at the former USSR.

PRC has to respond in some way to deter successionist groups. They are simply not going to roll over and let it happen.

[ronin893]

Have to agree. Just visit yorkbbs, and start a thread about something bad in China. You will be immediately flamed to death, and they will never answer the question "if you love China so much then why do you come to Canada?" :D :cheesygriThat's true of any country/territory. Same for Taiwan. Just look at this thread. I have not said a bad thing about Taiwan and already the Taiwanese gang here started jumping on me. They accuse me of being from PRC. They accuse me of not understanding democracy even though I have said nothing against democracy. Worst comment was b166er1337's borderline racist attacks.
they got nothing better to do (and they are everywhere !!!)

[Aznsilvrboy]

Yes, it does. Just look at the former USSR.

PRC has to respond in some way to deter successionist groups. They are simply not going to roll over and let it happen.

What the heck? All former soviet republics were a part of the former USSR prior to their secession. So of course it might/did cause a chain reaction (logically). Taiwan's situation is not even comparable because Taiwan is not affiliated with PRC in any way. However, I will agree with the latter part of your statements, that "they" simply wont let it roll over, EVEN THOUGH it's none of their business.

[b166er1337]

UK is not the same as GB. GB is made up of England, Scotland, and Wales. GB + Northern Ireland = UK. UK has a seat at the UN.

Compare that to China.
PRC + ROC + HK + Macau = Greater China

PS: UK will never support Taiwanese independence. There's a small group of Scots who wants Scotland to separate from the UK.

1) The current ruling party of Scotland is pro-independence. It's not a small group as you said. why do I know?...Because I was there -)

2) UK is not the same as GB (thank god you got something right), one is geographic terms, the other is political terms. They are usually used interchangeably. Same as Taiwan, the political term is ROC, the geographical term is Taiwan. THEY can be used interchangeably. To avoid confusion with PRC, most Taiwanese simply say they are from Taiwan to avoid the needless explanation (like we are doing now) that ROC/Taiwan doesn't belong to PRC (aka CHINA!)

That's true of any country/territory. Same for Taiwan. Just look at this thread. I have not said a bad thing about Taiwan and already the Taiwanese gang here started jumping on me. They accuse me of being from PRC. They accuse me of not understanding democracy even though I have said nothing against democracy. Worst comment was b166er1337's borderline racist attacks.

Why are you taking things so personal? All of the pro-Taiwan posts are directed against the concept that Taiwan is part of China.

oh, and when I said that Chinese are everywhere, I do mean it. There are lots of Chinese in North America, Europe, Africa and even in SCOTLAND !;) .

[ronin893]

What the heck? All former soviet republics were a part of the former USSR prior to their secession. So of course it might/did cause a chain reaction (logically). Taiwan's situation is not even comparable because Taiwan is not affiliated with PRC in any way. However, I will agree with the latter part of your statements, that "they" simply wont let it roll over, EVEN THOUGH it's none of their business.Taiwan is not part of PRC but it is affiliated with "China". You have your point of view but that is not the world's point of view. Why do you take this statement as some sort of pro-PRC line?

Taiwan is the part of China that is not ruled by Communists. No amount of rewriting history by the DPP will change that fact. Until the day that Taiwan has a referendum and conclusively confirms its desire to be fully independent, it is officially a part of "China".